11001 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 7:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samma samadhi Dear Herman, Jon and All, Herman, my attention was caught by your mention of control. "To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times a day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled them?", which I took to mean that you think there IS control. But, as you also said 'I do not believe there is such a thing as an ultimate goal, only cause and effect." which I took to mean that you think there ISN'T control. So, I'm not sure if you have a positon on this..... Couldn't it be said that it all depends on conditions? You, presently, are physically mobile and healthy. Many unwell people may wish to have even simple 'control' over bodily functions - but wishing doesn't make it so - you have 'it' until conditions change. As a, perhaps irrelevant, side-note, I was reading that in World War 1, the dastardly British (sorry Sarah & Lucy) achieved considerable success in interrogating Officer prisoners by the simple method of hospitality (food and drink) combined with long interrogation interviews, plus the Officer Class's inhibitions about mentioning the need to use the bathroom. (Ordering the body not to be experiencing discomfort or to halt the digestive process would have been to no avail - no control?). Rather than ask a socially demeaning question (psychologically this was impossible for them - no control?), the Officers became distracted, and revealed information which they didn't wish to do - (no control?) to end the session, because the routine was that Prisoners were always taken back to their cell via a trip to the bathroom. So what is meant when the word 'control' is used? Perhaps 'influence' might be an alternative - Intention combined with Action combined with Hope for a desired result? I still find the idea of no control hard to understand/accept, and would be delighted if someone showed me a loophole .......but, despite trying, I can't point to any area of life where there is complete control. Control seems to be one of those words where it is 'all' or 'nothing'. And, last but not least, 'who' is it that would have this control? On the subject of 'control'/'no-control'.......how does 'padhana' relate? Does the 'rousing of will' in this teaching mean that the application of effort achieves a 'controllable' result? (planning and goal setting) "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > > > I'm interested though that you see bliss as the ultimate goal. Do > share > > more when you are ready. > > If we were in court, I'd have to accuse you of leading the witness :- > ). I do not see bliss as the ultimate goal. I am not trying to be > tricky here, but I do not believe there is such a thing as an > ultimate goal, only cause and effect. The state of bliss, within this > frothing, bubbling cauldron of reiterating consequences, is a > possibility. > > Theravada Buddhism was born out of the extreme existential anxiety of > one man, Gautama, within his social and environmental context. He had > sufficient insight prior to enlightenment to be anxious. His anxiety > was sufficient enough for him to forsake everything, and say "I will > not stop until I find a better way of being". He discovered for > himself how cause and effect resulted in the anxious mindstate he > found himself in. Being released from anxiety caused by ignorance (an > unskilful mindstate of his own creation), he then set about teaching > people to train their minds, so as to be free from the consequences > of their untrained mind. > > To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times a > day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled them? > > If you don't soil your trousers anymore, are you still soiling your > mind? > > > Herman > > > > > > > > > My own experience is that thought, word and deed leads to more of > the > > > same. Kusala, merit, beautiful roots, and their counterparts, you > > > name it, it is all samsara. When there are 83000-odd verses > milling > > > through your head, there are 83000-odd verses milling through > your > > > head. When there is nothing milling through your head, there is > > > bliss. I know this. I do not credit myself with any status on any > > > developmental ladder, but I won't apologise for the state of > bliss. > > > It sure beats the crap out of other states I can also conjure up, > and > > > often do. > > > > > > Cheers for now > > > > > > Herman 11002 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 7:38pm Subject: Read the second one - sorry Dear Herman Jon and All, I prefer the slightly improved duplicate which was sent a few hours after the original post didn't appear... Cheers, Chris 11003 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas Hi Victor, --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Sarah and all, > > This is how I understand it: > Seeing thing/phenomenon as it actually is is not much about classifying > the > thing/phenomenon as nama or rupa. To see thing/phenomenon as it > actually is > is to see it thus: "This is impermanent. This is dukkha. This is not > oneself." > That is just my view on seeing thing/phenomenon as it actually is. The question is, though, if there isn't any basic understanding of what this thing/phenomenon is, how can there be the advanced understanding of the characteristics which are only apparent when the basics (ie nama-ness and rupa-ness, however labelled) are very clear? (This is not just 'my' understanding but also as presented in the texts). Victor, always good to hear your questions...I'll leave the later ones for Jon & Kom as they were in response to their posts I believe. If you're able to humour your Wash.D.C. neighbour, myself and others by putting a photo in the album, we'd all be glad (with or without your favourite good reminder as a caption;-). Sarah ================================================== 11004 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas Hi Victor, I've just seen this follow-up question of yours with part of a post of mine (now put to the end). Firstly, I appreciate the care you've taken to read what I wrote to Rob Ep;-) --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello all, > > Or could it be the other way around: seeing phenomenon thus: "This is > impermanent. This is dukkha. This is not oneself" is conducive to > understand the difference between namas and rupas? (Just question for > consideration.) The reason that there has to be clear understanding of namas and rupas (and the difference) first, is because if there isn't any understanding of say, "seeing" , which sees (visible object), experiencing the object momentarily, the more refined understanding which understands not only its nature but also its arising and falling away directly (not by thinking as now) and thereby the inherent unsatisfactoriness of its nature cannot be apparent. Having said that, it's true that even at a real beginner level of satipatthana, well before the first stage of nama-rupa pariccheda nana, at the moments of awareness there is no wrong view of self, permanence or satisfactorieness in the object which is known. There is a beginning of understanding the anattaness of the reality. For example, when visible object (that which is seen) is known, there is no "I", "me" or "mine" in its nature, as you remind us so often. It is just that rupa which is seen at that moment. For most of us, however, we have to really hear and consider a lot about different namas and rupas for even this beginner level of satipatthana to develop. Just my opinion. You may find it helpful to read more about the stages of insight in the Visuddhimagga or a good summary can be found in K.Sujin's 'Sruvey of Paramattha Dhammas' (in a chapter on Anatta towards the end) on Rob K's excellent website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ or: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Thanks for all your comments as always, Sarah ===================================================== Sarah:> > As a few people have mentioned, clearly understanding (with awareness) > the > > difference between namas and rupas is really the way to understand the > > characterisic of anatta and to begin to understand the conditioned > (and > > non-controlled) nature of the phenomena that make up our lives. This > > precise direct understanding is the first of many stages of insight, > > eventually leading to the first stage of enlightenment. Without this > > understanding, there cannot be any knowledge of the impermanence or > > ultimate unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) of realities. 11005 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Kukkucca ?=regret Dear Lucy, > -----Original Message----- > From: Lucy [mailto:selene@c...] > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 10:12 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Kukkucca ?=regret > > > Dear Kom > > Thank you very much for helping clear my > questions, expanding the comments > and pointing to things I hadn't considered > before. This is all very helpful > to me because I'm not used to analysing things in > this detail, but it all > seems to be immediately applicable to daily life. > Isn't it wonderful? It is indeed wonderful to have the opportunity to listen to the Buddha's dhamma, to understand that his teachings allow us to understand ourself right now, at this moment, in our daily life, and to have friends who helps us and reminds us all along of what the teaching is all about. Thanks for being a freind! kom 11006 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kukkucca ?=regret Hi Lucy, --- Lucy wrote: > From: "Sarah" > > > > Now, Lucy is going to lead the discussion on regret soon.....;-)) > > Was that my cue, Sarah? Are you sure my beginner's attempt at tackling > the > cetasikas isn't going to interfere with your studies? Please everybody, > feel free to tell me if so, OK? I wouldn't have considered it a 'beginner's attempt' at all...instead a very neat and helpful summary and condition for useful reflection. many thanks. > 'Regret' (kukkucca) was my 'cetasika of this week'. > This is extracted from Nynatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: > > "kukkucca: lit. 'wrongly-performed-ness', i.e. scruples, > remorse, uneasiness of conscience, worry, I'm not sure about the definition from the dictionary of 'scruples' here....begins to sound a little too skilful and close to definitions of hiri and ottappa for my liking;-) What do you think? Remorse is a more helpful translation for me. > '.................................... whenever it arises, is > associated with hateful (discontented) consciousness. It is the > 'repentance > over wrong things done, and right things neglected' .... > Restlessness and scruples (uddhacca-kukkucca), combined, are counted as > one > of the 5 mental hindrances (nívarana)." It's interesting that it is always grouped here with uddhacca (restlessness) because whereas uddhacca arises with every unwholesome citta (state of consciousness), kukkucca only arises with some dosa-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion). For sure, whenever there is kukkucca, there is restlessness. When there is remorse, there is a 'state of bondage'. Isn't this true? We can say these unwholesome states are a hindrance for the development of satipatthana in the sense that whenever there is an unskilful state of mind, there is no skilful awareness or other wholesome state. On the other hand, we can say they are not hindrances to satipatthana (unlike to samatha development), in that any object or state can be cognized or known by sati awareness and understanding. > In my mind 'regret' has always been a good thing. But all the > definitions > agree: kukkucca is akusala (unskilful), and it arises with aversion > (dosa) > for its object (the action done or left undone) ..and is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling too. Usually we think of regret/remorse as a long thinking process (at least I tend to;-). Of course, kukkucca, like sloth and torpor, is not dependent on a 'situation' or even on thinking in words. It slips in very fast and momentarily. We may be happily reflecting on a gift we've given and the pleasure caused when kukkucca and other kinds of dosa slip in and out. It can be difficult to know the difference between different states with dosa and we don't have to pinpoint or try and work them out, but it helps to understand more and more of the details, I think, in order to begin to recognise them and understand why they are unskilful. All your other notes and quotes from Nina were really helpful too and I've appreciated Kom's and John's further comments. Thanks for taking up the cue, Lucy, Sarah p.s hope to see yr pic in the album in due course too, tho' I understand we ladies are a little more reticent in this regard;-) ==================================================== 11007 From: egberdina Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01am Subject: Re: The Highest Bliss Dear Erik, I send a reply to this last night but it hasn't shown up. It was something along the lines of : "Well, you and I don't need to discuss this any further, because one doesn't need to preach to the converted." I then asked what line of work you are in, and that I've got something in the back of my head that says programmer. I know Kom, Howard and myself are up the IT creek. What's your speciality? All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Jon: > > Herman > > > > Thanks for the comments. I enjoy your particular way of saying > things! > > > > I'm interested though that you see bliss as the ultimate goal. > > Erik: > I'm interested to see that you bring this up, as it the entire point > of the Buddhist Dharma. I can't tell if you're suggesting that bliss > as the ultimate goal is to be pursued or not from this, but it > sounds as if by asking the question you're suggesting it isn't (and > I apologize if I am misrepresenting your meaning & intent). > > Lest there be any question on what the Buddha said on this matter, I > would refer all interested in the entire aim of the Dhamma to the > following: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/15.html > > If the Dhamma is about anything other than bliss, I'd have nothing > to do with it, according to my preferences of wishing to be free > from suffering and finding the highest bliss known. 11008 From: egberdina Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 10:47pm Subject: Re: The Highest Bliss Dear Erik, There is of course no need to preach to the converted :-), but I do want to ask you something else: What is your line of work? Somewhere in the back of my mind I have that you are a computer programmer. Is that right? What sort of stuff do you specialise in? I know Kom, Howard and myself are all up the IT creek, I ask purely out of interest. We'll find some Dhamma twist later on to make it relevant to the group :-) All the best to you Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Jon: > > Herman > > > > Thanks for the comments. I enjoy your particular way of saying > things! > > > > I'm interested though that you see bliss as the ultimate goal. > > Erik: > I'm interested to see that you bring this up, as it the entire point > of the Buddhist Dharma. I can't tell if you're suggesting that bliss > as the ultimate goal is to be pursued or not from this, but it > sounds as if by asking the question you're suggesting it isn't (and > I apologize if I am misrepresenting your meaning & intent). > > Lest there be any question on what the Buddha said on this matter, I > would refer all interested in the entire aim of the Dhamma to the > following: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/15.html > > If the Dhamma is about anything other than bliss, I'd have nothing > to do with it, according to my preferences of wishing to be free > from suffering and finding the highest bliss known. 11009 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 0:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: samma samadhi --- Dear Christine, I like your thinking on this. You might like to read this post too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9782 robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Herman, Jon and All, > > Herman, my attention was caught by your mention of control. > "To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times > a > day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled > them?", which I took to mean that you think there IS control. > But, as you also said 'I do not believe there is such a thing as an > ultimate goal, only cause and effect." which I took to mean that you > think there ISN'T control. So, I'm not sure if you have a positon on > this..... > > Couldn't it be said that it all depends on conditions? You, > presently, are physically mobile and healthy. Many unwell people may > wish to have even simple 'control' over bodily functions - but > wishing doesn't make it so - you have 'it' until conditions change. > As a, perhaps irrelevant, side-note, I was reading that in World War > 1, the dastardly British (sorry Sarah & Lucy) achieved considerable > success in interrogating Officer prisoners by the simple method of > hospitality (food and drink) combined with long interrogation > interviews, plus the Officer Class's inhibitions about mentioning the > need to use the bathroom. (Ordering the body not to be experiencing > discomfort or to halt the digestive process would have been to no > avail - no control?). Rather than ask a socially demeaning question > (psychologically this was impossible for them - no control?), the > Officers became distracted, and revealed information which they > didn't wish to do - (no control?) to end the session, because the > routine was that Prisoners were always taken back to their cell via a > trip to the bathroom. > So what is meant when the word 'control' is used? > Perhaps 'influence' might be an alternative - Intention combined with > Action combined with Hope for a desired result? > > I still find the idea of no control hard to understand/accept, and > would be delighted if someone showed me a loophole .......but, > despite trying, I can't point to any area of life where there is > complete control. Control seems to be one of those words where it > is 'all' or 'nothing'. > And, last but not least, 'who' is it that would have this control? > > On the subject of 'control'/'no-control'.......how does 'padhana' > relate? Does the 'rousing of will' in this teaching mean that the > application of effort achieves a 'controllable' result? (planning > and goal setting) > "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome > things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome > things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them > disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full > perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, > exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > > > > > > > I'm interested though that you see bliss as the ultimate goal. > Do > > share > > > more when you are ready. > > > > If we were in court, I'd have to accuse you of leading the > witness :- > > ). I do not see bliss as the ultimate goal. I am not trying to be > > tricky here, but I do not believe there is such a thing as an > > ultimate goal, only cause and effect. The state of bliss, within > this > > frothing, bubbling cauldron of reiterating consequences, is a > > possibility. > > > > Theravada Buddhism was born out of the extreme existential anxiety > of > > one man, Gautama, within his social and environmental context. He > had > > sufficient insight prior to enlightenment to be anxious. His > anxiety > > was sufficient enough for him to forsake everything, and say "I > will > > not stop until I find a better way of being". He discovered for > > himself how cause and effect resulted in the anxious mindstate he > > found himself in. Being released from anxiety caused by ignorance > (an > > unskilful mindstate of his own creation), he then set about > teaching > > people to train their minds, so as to be free from the consequences > > of their untrained mind. > > > > To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times > a > > day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled > them? > > > > If you don't soil your trousers anymore, are you still soiling your > > mind? > > > > > > Herman 11010 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: samma samadhi Dear Robert,(and KenO), Thanks for this link.....is there no original thought under the sun?:) Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > I like your thinking on this. You might like to read this post > too: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9782 > robert 11011 From: rikpa21 Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 1:14am Subject: [dsg] Control - Re: samma samadhi --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: Hi Christine, Christine: I still find the idea of no control hard to understand/accept, and would be delighted if someone showed me a loophole .......but, Erik: Can you exert control to where you do not age, get sick, or die, or exter control to the degree that prevents things from changing? Christine: despite trying, I can't point to any area of life where there is complete control. Control seems to be one of those words where it is 'all' or 'nothing'. Erik: It sounds like this mere label, the word "control", is creating a problem for you. If it is posing a problem, why not just let it go for the time being? Christine: And, last but not least, 'who' is it that would have this control? "Who" is it that feels the sting when slapped in the face? Christine: On the subject of 'control'/'no-control'.......how does 'padhana' relate? Doesn't the 'rousing of will' in the teaching mean that the application of effort achieves a 'controllable' result? (planning and goal setting) Is this the loophole I was seeking? Erik: I think the passage below is simple enough even a child can understand it clearly. If the word "control" is posing a problem for you, as it seems, again, why not just let it go? It's just a word, and from the sounds of your message, it's simply engendering papanca (mental proliferation), creating confusion where none need exist. The Dhamma is not at all complicated as some believe, though with our tendencies toward papanca we make it so. > "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome > things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome > things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them > disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full > perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, > exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). More from the Buddha on "control" for those interested: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn107.html 11012 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind- Anders Hi Anders, Great having you around until you fly off to other pastures;-) --- anders_honore wrote: > I'll make a mental note of it. But I don't really have much time to read > the Tipitaka right now. When I've been really busy with work I've gone long spells with very little Tipitaka reading, but it doesn't mean there isn't considering, reflecting and devoloping of insight at these times;-) >I am planning a trip to India in July, where I > intend to visit the four Holy Sites, and from there I'll go and visit my > teacher, KC Oon, who teaches Dzogchen and Ch'an, in Singapore. He has > talked about recommending me to the two Theravada teacher who knows, who > have mastered all eight Jhanas. A rarity these days, so I am definitely > looking forward to spending time with such a personality. I have to say I'd heard a rumour about a trip to Asia;-) Sounds like it should be a really great experience and i'm sure everyone will be interested to follow you around if you have the chance to dive into the odd internet cafe (plenty in bodh Gaya;-)) . Anders, Jaran and Ken O will be glad to meet up with you in Singapore I know and perhaps we can persuade you to make the short hop to Bkk to meet another gang..if we're around, we'd love to join you or encourage you to visit Hong Kong though I have to say it's too hot for hiking then;-) > > Let's agree (I hope) the panna does the uprooting and it uproots the > > delusion rather than the concepts. > > In my experience, concepts are fundamentally rooted in delusion. I would put it a little differently; all unskilful cittas (moments of consciousness) are rooted in moha (delusion), some also rooted in lobha (attachment) or dosa (aversion) as well. Now we cannot say concepts are rooted in anything because they are not realities. Thinking, on the other hand, which thinks unskilfully, such as the thinking which thinks concepts are realities, is of course rooted in delusion. > >so > > many points to agree on for now;-) > > Haha, where's the fun now! :-) Hope I've given you a little fun with a little nit-picking here and I'll just take a look at your other post again as I'm in an 'Anders mood' right now;-) Sarah ===================================================== 11013 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:30am Subject: Anatta - Victor Hello Victor, and All, I wonder if you have listened to Bhikkhu Bodhis' dhamma talk on 'Selflessness'? You will be pleased to know that this is the first explanation that I have felt excited about. :-) I actually feel content with what he says, that it is truth, that it is Dhamma. He talks about the four criteria for selfhood - that in order for there to be a Self there must be 1.the idea of duration over time - whether one lifetime or everlastingly 2. there must be simplicity, indivisibility - an incomposite entity, not analysible into parts 3. it must be unconditioned - have its own power of being, not dependent on causes and conditions, and be self sufficient 4. it must be susceptible to its own control - should be able to exercise control over it, exercise mastery over it. These are just my quickly scribbled points, so any errors are mine. He then proceeds to systematically show how the five aggregates, the psycho-physical organism, does not meet these criteria, in a more convincing way then I have heard anywhere else to date. http://www.watthai.net/sounds.htm You have to scroll down below lots of talks by Ajahn Brams on Jhanas and things, before you find Bhikkhu Bodhis' talks - and he does sound slightly like a chipmunk because the files are compressed, but I think you will find it really worthwhile if you haven't already heard him. Takes about 14 minutes to download and 38 minutes to play on Real Audio. I have it on my desk top and will listen again. The particular tape is "3(b) The Three Characteristics of Existence - Impermanence, Unsatisfactoriness, Selflessness" It is 95% about Anatta. metta, Christine 11014 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 5:18am Subject: [dsg] Control - Re: samma samadhi Hi Erik, Erik: Can you exert control to where you do not age, get sick, or die, or exter control to the degree that prevents things from changing? "Who" is it that feels the sting when slapped in the face? Christine: No, I certainly can't prevent or control aging, sickness and death. This together with "who" feels the sting is part of my studying 'anatta'. Erik: It sounds like this mere label, the word "control", is creating a problem for you. If it is posing a problem, why not just let it go for the time being? Erik: I think the passage below is simple enough even a child can understand it clearly. If the word "control" is posing a problem for you, as it seems, again, why not just let it go? It's just a word, and from the sounds of your message, it's simply engendering papanca (mental proliferation), creating confusion where none need exist. The Dhamma is not at all complicated as some believe, though with our tendencies toward papanca we make it so. More from the Buddha on "control" for those interested: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn107.html Christine: I do let it go for most of the time in daily life; but this is a Dhamma Study group, and this is the place I bring forward any uncertainties, questions and areas that I don't understand. Mostly......I find kindness, guidance and help in understanding and learning. This gives me the trustful confidence to keep posting......even when I know my posts might not seem particularly intelligent, or worthwhile. Thank you for your advice Eric and for the link. metta, Christine 11015 From: Victor Yu Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Hello, No problem, I will try my best to explain how I understand it, but I am afraid I would just repeat myself. I see panna as it actually is thus: "Panna is not mine. Panna I am not. Panna is not my self." Suppose it is panna that sees itself as it actually is, then panna knows itself as panna. If panna understood panna thus: "Panna is not mine. Panna I am not. Panna is not my self," panna would run into a self-denial. Otherwise, panna would understand thus: "I am panna," and that is self-view. Panna is not something or someone that sees or knows or understands. That is just my view on panna. Regards, Victor > > Suppose that it is panna that knows and understands conditioned > > phenomenon > > as it actually is. How does panna understand itself as it actually is? > > If > > panna understood thus: "Panna is impermanent. Panna is stressful. > > Panna > > is not mine. Panna I am not. Panna is not my self," panna would run > > into > > a contradiction, a self-denial. > > I don't see any contradiction in panna knowing more about the > characteristic of panna. Could you perhaps elaborate on what you see as > being the contradiction. Thanks. > > Jon 11016 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS Hi Anders, Hope you’re still there;-) --- anders_honore wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > > >There is no pure state of > > awareness because this would conflict with what we study in the > abhidhamma > > So what you are really saying is that this can't be true because *you* > have faith in the fact that the Abhidhamma is true? How is this is any > different from the Mahayanist who has faith in the Mahayana Sutras as > true and claims otherwise? > It is bad enough if people should think they'll find any actual truths > in the scriptures, but to set the standards for truth based on personal > preference...? Hmm....iI think the second half of my sentence (snipped - sigh) worked a little better than the first half, so I’ll let this one go. Actually, I remember smiling to myself as I wrote it;-) > > ********** > Spot on! To tell you the truth, I don't really disagree with the 'pure > awareness' theory myself, but I certainly agree with what you say about > future fantasy and all. > I mentioned the 'pure awareness=Nibbana' a while back to counter what I > perceived as an annihilationist view of Buddhism (that there is just > cessation), but the intent of that seems to have been warped somewhat > and shaped into this goal that we must reach. There is just this > reality. How will speculating about how others may experience it help > you understand it any better? For brevity, I’ve chopped the ‘spot on’ comments (it’s all praise and blame on the list;-)), but always happy to find common ground with you Anders. I think (but only think), you and Howard are probably pretty close when it comes to Nibbana and Parinibbana. Now I notice that some people (not Howard) tend to use nibbana and parinibbana interchangably which I find a little confusing. Of course, nibbana can have the two meanings, i.e extinction of defilements and full extinction of the khandhas which we usually refer to as parinibbana. When you mention the annihalationisht view of Buddhism as suggested by cessation (of all khandhas at parinibbana), it reminds me of some discussion with Howard who also referred to annihilationist sounding statements by some of us. This partly prompted me to write a post with references on my understanding of annihilationist theories as discussed by the Buddha at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10500 Suan also added some very useful posts and translation notes on parinibbana which can be found under Parinibbana at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > Actually, when one interprets the Pure Land, and perhaps also the > Chrstian Kingdom of the father, esoterically, then they are really quite > the same... But one is of course free to see that as being negative or > positive as they wish... > > > Isn't it really > > a lack of knowledge of namas and rupas? > > To me, it is merely the case of a different focal-point for faith. I think that’s a good place to leave it and a good comment to make. Your maturity and respect always impress me. > >that it's impossible for awareness or any other mental state to last > an > > instant. I hope I haven't misunderstood you. > > I think you have, but it is really a quite abstract concept. For > example, there's a reason why one has to be a stream-entrant to really > know what Nibbana is about. One can speculate, but never quite hit the > mark. I think I’ll wait til I’m brave enough to address Rob Ep’s marathon to see whether I misunderstood him. (Rob, I think we’ll have to split it up into little packages otherwise if I were to reply in context, we might have a mass walk-out....I do see now it wasn’t a mistake, but you were just ‘inspired’;-)) >For > example, there's a reason why one has to be a stream-entrant to really > know what Nibbana is about. One can speculate, but never quite hit the > mark. Agreed, agreed....and on this happy ‘agreed’ note, I’ll sign off. Sarah ====================================================== 11017 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts/Kom Hi Howard, Good to see you back in action with or without your pipe;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > The way I might put this is, when looking to make a precise > statement, > is something along the lines of "There is the clear and direct seeing of > the > separation and the distinction between nama and rupa as dhammas, and > this > seeing is an instance of wisdom". (Actually, I happen to prefer the word > > 'insight' to 'wisdom', because I find in myself certain associations > with the > word 'wisdom' that are off the mark.) I thought this was very neatly and well put (as are many of your expressions). You may also notice that I've been using 'insight ' in place of 'wisdom' recently as a result of your comments;-) (It may be temporary though;-) Sarah 11018 From: michael newton Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 8:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind- Anders >From: Sarah >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind- Anders >Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:00:59 +0800 (CST) > >Hi Anders, > >Great having you around until you fly off to other pastures;-) > > --- anders_honore wrote: > > > I'll make a mental note of it. But I don't really have much time to read > > the Tipitaka right now. > >When I've been really busy with work I've gone long spells with very >little Tipitaka reading, but it doesn't mean there isn't considering, >reflecting and devoloping of insight at these times;-) > > >I am planning a trip to India in July, where I > > intend to visit the four Holy Sites, and from there I'll go and visit my > > teacher, KC Oon, who teaches Dzogchen and Ch'an, in Singapore. He has > > talked about recommending me to the two Theravada teacher who knows, who > > have mastered all eight Jhanas. A rarity these days, so I am definitely > > looking forward to spending time with such a personality. > >I have to say I'd heard a rumour about a trip to Asia;-) Sounds like it >should be a really great experience and i'm sure everyone will be >interested to follow you around if you have the chance to dive into the >odd internet cafe (plenty in bodh Gaya;-)) . Anders, Jaran and Ken O will >be glad to meet up with you in Singapore I know and perhaps we can >persuade you to make the short hop to Bkk to meet another gang..if we're >around, we'd love to join you or encourage you to visit Hong Kong though I >have to say it's too hot for hiking then;-) > > > > Let's agree (I hope) the panna does the uprooting and it uproots the > > > delusion rather than the concepts. > > > > In my experience, concepts are fundamentally rooted in delusion. > >I would put it a little differently; all unskilful cittas (moments of >consciousness) are rooted in moha (delusion), some also rooted in lobha >(attachment) or dosa (aversion) as well. Now we cannot say concepts are >rooted in anything because they are not realities. Thinking, on the other >hand, which thinks unskilfully, such as the thinking which thinks concepts >are realities, is of course rooted in delusion. > > > >so > > > many points to agree on for now;-) > > > > Haha, where's the fun now! :-) > >Hope I've given you a little fun with a little nit-picking here and I'll >just take a look at your other post again as I'm in an 'Anders mood' right >now;-) > >Sarah >===================================================== >Hello!Sarah; I see in this email that in July you will be fying off to India and you will be visiting the 4 holy sites as well as other places.I wonder how the Samanwaya Ashram in Bodh Gaya is doing where I met a teacher of mine(Anagarika Munindra)?Well,this is just to wish you a great trip.Be hot at that time(I'm thinking in Bodh Gaya)maybe monsoon time?I'm glad that I.m in touch with you and maybe this time you might get this message.YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL (REV.ALOKANANDA) 11019 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kukkucca ?=regret op 26-01-2002 23:07 schreef Lucy op selene@c... > > 'Regret' (kukkucca) was my 'cetasika of this week'. > This is extracted from Nynatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: > > "kukkucca: lit. 'wrongly-performed-ness', i.e. scruples, > remorse, uneasiness of conscience, worry, is one of the karmically > unwholesome (akusala) mental faculties which, whenever it arises, is > associated with hateful (discontented) consciousness. It is the 'repentance > over wrong things done, and right things neglected' .... > Restlessness and scruples (uddhacca-kukkucca), combined, are counted as one > of the 5 mental hindrances (nívarana)." > > What follows is from Nina's "Cetasikas" > http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas21.html > Part III Akusala Cetasikas. Chapter 19. > (my comments and questions inserted) > > "If we take note of the proximate cause of kukkucca we will better > understand what kukkucca is. The proximate cause of kukkucca is akusala > kamma through body, speech and mind which has been committed and also > kusala kamma through body, speech and mind which has been omitted. " > > This seems to imply some wisdom in recognising what is kusala or akusala. > But couldn't kukkucca arise just from fear of the consequences as in the > case of a criminal afraid he'll be caught? If the criminal were sure that > he'll get away with it, he may not experience kukkucca at all. (?) But for > one who follows the Dhamma there'll be a lot more occasions for kukkucca ! > It may even reach the stage of believing that we can't "progress" in the > path because of past wrong actions. I presume that's when kukkucca becomes > a hindrance (nivarana) (?) > > So, what do we do? Dear Lucy, I like your way of consdiering different cetasikas. We learn from the Dhamma about kusala and akusala, but there are many degrees of understanding these. As to a hindrance: this concerns the development of samatha. Every reality can be object of vipassana and then it is not a hindrance. Kukkucca just arises when there are conditions for it, but it can be realized as a kind of nama. You quote below what I further wrote. I like your reaction, Ah, ha! Best wishes, from Nina. > > "We still consider regret as "my regret". We regret our akusala and our > lack of mindfulness. If we realize that thinking with worry is not helpful > it may be a condition to cultivate kusala. When there is forgetfulness of > realities we should remember that is a conditioned reality, not self. We > should know the characteristics of akusala dhammas which arise as not self. > Then there will be less regret. " > > Ah, ha! > > Lucy 11020 From: Yulia Klimov Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:28am Subject: Attachment to somebody (not to material object) Hello, everyone. Can you please, help me to find any talk on attachment to people. Is it possible to be mindfully not-attached to husband? I am not mention children yet :). Thank you, Yulia 11021 From: Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:02pm Subject: Re: mindfulness of nama and rupa/Jon Hi Jon, Regarding this extract, I haven't been studying it particularly, but thinking it over it occurred to me that one of my difficulties is that I am trying to identify consciousness by itself. Perhaps this is unnecessary or even impossible. In meditation nama is bare attention; this must be a cetasika (consciousness factor) but I'm not sure if it is one or several. The mahathera seems to be pointing to a "heap" (meaning several) of consciousness factors, not consciousness (citta) itself. Another confusion is the tendency to mix up the nama/rupa distinction with the ultimate reality/conventional reality distinction. For example, in attending to a red hat, the attending is nama, red is rupa, and hat is conventional reality. Victor's insistence on anicca, anatta, dukkha has caused me to wonder where that fits in. On the surface this looks like a case of uncovering the error of conventional reality. Aren't permanence, self, and happiness conventional realities? If so perhaps ultimate realities are not plagued by identification with permanence, self, and happiness. This doesn't seem quite right but I can't tell where I'm going wrong. Can you straighten me out? Larry 11022 From: egberdina Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:16pm Subject: Re: samma samadhi Dear Christine, I hope I am replying to the right post :-) I've had some difficulty getting my posts through recently, as well. I do not believe that the notion of control and cause and effect are mutually exclusive at all. I guess they would be if either were used in some absolute sense. Such usage tends to occur in religious circles. I see no reason why people should feel as though they must reject on some a priori basis the very small amount of control they can and do exert in their life. After all Ken O went to the toilet , and didn't do it in his pants. The fact that Ken O choose to go to the toilet is not without consequences, and had he chosen to do it in his pants that would have had it's own consequences as well. To point to the inevitable demise of the body as proof absolute that there is no control possible at all is a very extreme position. On the other hand, to say that all things happen because of conditions is to say precisely nothing at all. The same goes for the often used references to accumulations. Life is like a Rorhschach blot, there is no causal nexus between what goes on and how you respond to it. Nonetheless, things go on, and being a spectator is just not possible. I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the state of bliss :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Herman, Jon and All, > > Herman, my attention was caught by your mention of control. > "To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times > a > day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled > them?", which I took to mean that you think there IS control. > But, as you also said 'I do not believe there is such a thing as an > ultimate goal, only cause and effect." which I took to mean that you > think there ISN'T control. So, I'm not sure if you have a positon on > this..... > > Couldn't it be said that it all depends on conditions? You, > presently, are physically mobile and healthy. Many unwell people may > wish to have even simple 'control' over bodily functions - but > wishing doesn't make it so - you have 'it' until conditions change. > As a, perhaps irrelevant, side-note, I was reading that in World War > 1, the dastardly British (sorry Sarah & Lucy) achieved considerable > success in interrogating Officer prisoners by the simple method of > hospitality (food and drink) combined with long interrogation > interviews, plus the Officer Class's inhibitions about mentioning the > need to use the bathroom. (Ordering the body not to be experiencing > discomfort or to halt the digestive process would have been to no > avail - no control?). Rather than ask a socially demeaning question > (psychologically this was impossible for them - no control?), the > Officers became distracted, and revealed information which they > didn't wish to do - (no control?) to end the session, because the > routine was that Prisoners were always taken back to their cell via a > trip to the bathroom. > So what is meant when the word 'control' is used? > Perhaps 'influence' might be an alternative - Intention combined with > Action combined with Hope for a desired result? > > I still find the idea of no control hard to understand/accept, and > would be delighted if someone showed me a loophole .......but, > despite trying, I can't point to any area of life where there is > complete control. Control seems to be one of those words where it > is 'all' or 'nothing'. > And, last but not least, 'who' is it that would have this control? > > On the subject of 'control'/'no-control'.......how does 'padhana' > relate? Does the 'rousing of will' in this teaching mean that the > application of effort achieves a 'controllable' result? (planning > and goal setting) > "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome > things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome > things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them > disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full > perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, > exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > > > > > > > I'm interested though that you see bliss as the ultimate goal. > Do > > share > > > more when you are ready. > > > > If we were in court, I'd have to accuse you of leading the > witness :- > > ). I do not see bliss as the ultimate goal. I am not trying to be > > tricky here, but I do not believe there is such a thing as an > > ultimate goal, only cause and effect. The state of bliss, within > this > > frothing, bubbling cauldron of reiterating consequences, is a > > possibility. > > > > Theravada Buddhism was born out of the extreme existential anxiety > of > > one man, Gautama, within his social and environmental context. He > had > > sufficient insight prior to enlightenment to be anxious. His > anxiety > > was sufficient enough for him to forsake everything, and say "I > will > > not stop until I find a better way of being". He discovered for > > himself how cause and effect resulted in the anxious mindstate he > > found himself in. Being released from anxiety caused by ignorance > (an > > unskilful mindstate of his own creation), he then set about > teaching > > people to train their minds, so as to be free from the consequences > > of their untrained mind. > > > > To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times > a > > day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled > them? > > > > If you don't soil your trousers anymore, are you still soiling your > > mind? > > > > > > Herman 11023 From: Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment to somebody (not to material object) Hi, Yulia - In a message dated 1/28/02 2:20:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, yklimov@l... writes: > Hello, everyone. > > Can you please, help me to find any talk on attachment to people. > Is it possible to be mindfully not-attached to husband? I am not mention > children yet :). > > Thank you, > Yulia > ========================== We can't enforce nonattachment, and I believe it would be a mistake to try. We'd end up suppressing and avoiding seeing the way things are. We should simply strive to cultivate mindfulness (and calm), and, to be helpful and kind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11024 From: egberdina Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:46pm Subject: Re: The Highest Bliss Jon, Yes, you are correct, I was not referring to nibbana. As an aside, how does one know whether any state or stateless state that is being experienced equates to a state that is described in a book? I guess that if you follow the instructions, you can assume that the outcome is the same. All I know is that the more I approach a state of not-thinking, the more I experience what I call bliss. It is not excitement, in fact far from it. It is very "quiet". I am extrapolating here, but I assume that when there is no thinking at all, the state of bliss would be very fine indeed, as in subtle. I further extrapolate and assume this would be the same for everybody. I like this state, and much prefer it to an unconcentrated awareness of the present moment. I have a close association with a number of people who are described in medical terms as having Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. I believe they may be good candidates for vipassana insight, because they show no preference at all to anything in their environment. I do not wish to emulate them at this time. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > I think as Howard has already pointed out, there is bliss and then there > is bliss. My post was based on certain inferences I had drawn from > Herman's post as to what he meant by the term. I did not take him to be > referring to nibbana (I may of course have been wrong). > > Thanks for the link, where I found the following verse to which your post > refers-- > > "There is no fire like lust and no crime like hatred. There is no ill like > the aggregates (of existence) and no bliss higher than the peace (of > Nibbana)." [Dhp 202] > > I would be interested to know what your understadning of the term > "aggregates (of existence)" is here. > > Jon > > > > --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., > Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, > > > > Jon: > > > Herman > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. I enjoy your particular way of saying > > things! > > > > > > I'm interested though that you see bliss as the ultimate goal. > > > > Erik: > > I'm interested to see that you bring this up, as it the entire point > > of the Buddhist Dharma. I can't tell if you're suggesting that bliss > > as the ultimate goal is to be pursued or not from this, but it > > sounds as if by asking the question you're suggesting it isn't (and > > I apologize if I am misrepresenting your meaning & intent). > > > > Lest there be any question on what the Buddha said on this matter, I > > would refer all interested in the entire aim of the Dhamma to the > > following: > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/15.html > > > > If the Dhamma is about anything other than bliss, I'd have nothing > > to do with it, according to my preferences of wishing to be free > > from suffering and finding the highest bliss known. 11025 From: Victor Yu Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta - Victor Hello, Christine, Thank you for sharing your joy in Dhamma. I have not listened to Bhikkhu Bodhi's dhamma talk on 'Selflessness.' I am downloading the Bhikkhu Bodhi's talk "The Three Characteristics of Existence - Impermanence, Unsatisfactoriness, Selflessness" as I am writing this message to you. Thank you for pointing to the dhamma talk website. Metta, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" To: Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 6:30 AM Subject: [dsg] Anatta - Victor > Hello Victor, and All, > > I wonder if you have listened to Bhikkhu Bodhis' dhamma talk > on 'Selflessness'? You will be pleased to know that this is the > first explanation that I have felt excited about. :-) I actually feel > content with what he says, that it is truth, that it is Dhamma. > He talks about the four criteria for selfhood - that in order for > there to be a Self there must be 1.the idea of duration over time - > whether one lifetime or everlastingly 2. there must be simplicity, > indivisibility - an incomposite entity, not analysible into parts 3. > it must be unconditioned - have its own power of being, not dependent > on causes and conditions, and be self sufficient 4. it must be > susceptible to its own control - should be able to exercise control > over it, exercise mastery over it. These are just my quickly > scribbled points, so any errors are mine. > He then proceeds to systematically show how the five aggregates, the > psycho-physical organism, does not meet these criteria, in a more > convincing way then I have heard anywhere else to date. > http://www.watthai.net/sounds.htm > You have to scroll down below lots of talks by Ajahn Brams on Jhanas > and things, before you find Bhikkhu Bodhis' talks - and he does > sound slightly like a chipmunk because the files are compressed, but > I think you will find it really worthwhile if you haven't already > heard him. Takes about 14 minutes to download and 38 minutes to play > on Real Audio. I have it on my desk top and will listen again. > The particular tape is "3(b) The Three Characteristics of Existence - > Impermanence, Unsatisfactoriness, Selflessness" > It is 95% about Anatta. > > metta, > Christine 11026 From: Victor Yu Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control - Re: samma samadhi Hello, > Hi Erik, > > Erik: > Can you exert control to where you do not age, get sick, or die, or > exter control to the degree that prevents things from changing? > "Who" is it that feels the sting when slapped in the face? > > Christine: No, I certainly can't prevent or control aging, sickness > and death. This together with "who" feels the sting is part of my > studying 'anatta'. Body is impermanent. What is impermanent is unsatisfactory. What is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change is to be seen as it actually is thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." But certainly one can control oneself. One can control oneself not to break the five precepts. > > Erik: > It sounds like this mere label, the word "control", is creating a > problem for you. If it is posing a problem, why not just let it go > for the time being? > Erik: > I think the passage below is simple enough even a child can > understand it clearly. If the word "control" is posing a problem for > you, as it seems, again, why not just let it go? It's just a word, > and from the sounds of your message, it's simply engendering papanca > (mental proliferation), creating confusion where none need exist. > The Dhamma is not at all complicated as some believe, though with > our tendencies toward papanca we make it so. > More from the Buddha on "control" for those interested: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn107.html Pertinent discourse indeed. > > Christine: I do let it go for most of the time in daily life; but > this is a Dhamma Study group, and this is the place I bring forward > any uncertainties, questions and areas that I don't understand. > Mostly......I find kindness, guidance and help in understanding and > learning. This gives me the trustful confidence to keep > posting......even when I know my posts might not seem particularly > intelligent, or worthwhile. > Thank you for your advice Eric and for the link. > > metta, > Christine 11027 From: Victor Yu Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas Hello Sarah, To me, the basic understanding is to see thing/phenomenon as it actually is thus: "This is impermanent. This is dukkha. This is not self." Nama is impermanent, is dukkha, is not self. Rupa is impermanent, is dukkha, is not self. Nama-rupa is impermanent, is dukkha, is not self. But that is just my view on nama and rupa. Metta, Victor > Hi Victor, > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Sarah and all, > > > > This is how I understand it: > > Seeing thing/phenomenon as it actually is is not much about classifying > > the > > thing/phenomenon as nama or rupa. To see thing/phenomenon as it > > actually is > > is to see it thus: "This is impermanent. This is dukkha. This is not > > oneself." > > That is just my view on seeing thing/phenomenon as it actually is. > > The question is, though, if there isn't any basic understanding of what > this thing/phenomenon is, how can there be the advanced understanding of > the characteristics which are only apparent when the basics (ie nama-ness > and rupa-ness, however labelled) are very clear? (This is not just 'my' > understanding but also as presented in the texts). > > Victor, always good to hear your questions...I'll leave the later ones for > Jon & Kom as they were in response to their posts I believe. > > If you're able to humour your Wash.D.C. neighbour, myself and others by > putting a photo in the album, we'd all be glad (with or without your > favourite good reminder as a caption;-). > > Sarah > ================================================== > 11028 From: lisa14850 Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:26pm Subject: Photos Dan and I just posted some photos of our family. Hope we don't break your computer screen. Lisa 11029 From: egberdina Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:53pm Subject: Re: Photos Dear Lisa, Dan and kids, I very much enjoyed seeing your photos just now. Thank you, Lisa, for posting them. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "lisa14850" wrote: > Dan and I just posted some photos of our family. Hope we don't break > your computer screen. > > Lisa 11030 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:51pm Subject: Welcome Michael Dear Michael, I'm glad to see you posting on the list;-) (Nina & others, Michael joined dsg v.recently and sent me a note off-list to say he remembered me from talks with you and K.Sujin in Sri Lanka in 1976. He was then Rev.Alokananda. He also remembers Ven Dhammadharo very well from those days. He wrote to check if I was the same English Sarah;-) Anyway, I hope you find dsg interesting and useful and we look forward to hearing more from you here. Where do you live now, btw? --- michael newton wrote: > >Hello!Sarah; > I see in this email that in July you will be fying off to India and you > will > be visiting the 4 holy sites as > well as other places. Actually, it's Anders that will be making the trip..I was just replying to him. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I wonder how the Samanwaya Ashram in Bodh Gaya is > doing > where I > met a teacher of mine(Anagarika Munindra)? Perhaps we can ask Anders to check when he's there. I'm afraid I'm very out of touch. You mentioned (off-list) that another mutual friend studied with Munindra at the same time I did (74-75) before he took robes. Were you there then? Well,this is just to wish you > a > great trip.Be hot at > that time(I'm thinking in Bodh Gaya)maybe monsoon time? I think Anders will have a hot trip throughout Asia, but then he has plenty of wisdom to help him with a few heatwaves;-) I'm glad that I.m > in > touch with you > and maybe this time you might get this message. Received by us all and very glad to hear from you Michael. Sarah 11031 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dependence/Sarah Dear Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hello Sarah, nice to hear from you. > > In regard to this question of dependence or conditionality I was just > thinking of what I had vaguely remembered from some suttas that > paticcasamuppada can be stopped or reversed and I was wondering how that > worked. Unfortunately I have almost zero knowledge of the abhidhamma and > it didn't occur to me to look there. The paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) is not as simple as it often first seems, I think. We learn about specific conditions causing the arising of speific phenomena. Without the conditions, the other phenomena don’t arise. All the phenomena discussed, including birth and death, are different namas and rupas. When you mention about being ‘stopped’ or ‘reversed’, I think you maybe referring to the full realisation of nibbana and in particular to the end of the current lifespan at parinibbana. Objects experienced by the arahat are no longer a condition for craving and thus, at the end of his life, there will be no more conditions for rebirth-consciousness because ignorance has been eradicated. So we read about both the sequence of origination (1) and the sequence of cessation (2) (B.Bodhi translations snipped for brevity and to save typing in places): (1) “Bhikkhus, what is dependent arising? with ignorance as condition volitional formations come to be; with volitional foramations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality..........................death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering. This bhikkhus, is called dependent arising.” (2) “But with the remainderless fding away and cessation of ignorance volitinal formations cease; with the cessation of volitional formations consciousness ceases; with the cessation of consciousness mentality-materiality ceases;...............with the cessation of existence birth ceases; with the cessation of birth, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering.” (S.X11,1;ii 1-2) In the Mahanidana sutta, the Buddha gives the seqence of conditions in reverse order and this might also be what you have in mind. So here, the series begins with aging and death which have birth as condition and so on back. But the meaning is the same, linking back to the conditioned nature of these phenomena. Birth and death refer to the particular kinds of consciousness (vipaka citta) at these times, accompanied by cetasikas(mental factors referred here as.nama) and rupa (physical phenomena, produced by kamma at rebirth. > You make an interesting point that conditionality is changed by adding > more conditions. However, with high and low or birth and death there are > no other conditions that can be added to change the relationship. So > perhaps there are some differences between the links of the > paticcasamuppada as to which are changeable by adding additional > (appropriate) conditions. I’ll pass on the high and low concepts. If there is birth, there is bound to be death by conditions. Even at this moment, we can talk about the momentary birth of any citta or other reality being a condition for the death of that same citta. Of course, in a lifespan, there are many, many factors or conditions which will affect when and how the cuti citta (death consciousness) will arise. Even considering the dhamma now will affect the various links. There are many ways in which cittas, cetasikas and rupas all condition each other. It’s a very intricate topic and the reason I find the paticca samuppada and other parts of the Suttanta are not as simple as they can seem . > Another question might be what makes a condition that makes a difference > in the various links? For example, given feeling, which conditions would > prevent craving from arising. Unless arahatship has been attained, as we see from paticcasamuppada, there are bound to conditions for craving to arise on account of feeling. However, when there are skilful moments of consciousness, there are no conditions at these times for craving or aversion (its ‘flip-side’) to arise. Usually, for example, there is either attachment or aversion or ignorance following the pleasant or unpleasant feeling accompanying what is experienced through the bodysense; just occasionally, there may be awareness with detachment instead;-) > If I get a chance I'll try to get up to the library and dig out some of > these answers. As it happens, my internet connectivity doesn't exactly > use a computer so I can't download adobe or read pdf files. Hence, no > Nina for now. hmmmm...at least you can read Nina here it seems. I’ll try not to send you off with too many links and follow Herman’s link-free example for a change;-) > When I originally made a profile for Yahoo I said I was a 100 year old > banker from Hong Kong, thinking I would never meet anyone from there. > Actually I live in Boulder Colorado, USA and I'm more or less 55 years > old and in construction (houses). I’m glad you told me, otherwise I might have been wondering which of the 100yr old bankers I bump into here was you;-) We hope to catch peole out with the photo album too..Some may have to use disguises and wigs to look like their initial descriptions;-) Anyway, thanks for sharing this info. I was following that story of the little child beauty queen whose parents were (it seems wrongfully) arrested for her murder. I think they were from Boulder? Conditions for some very hard-to-endure results. > I really appreciate what you and Jon are doing here. It's very helpful > and truly meritorious. Larry, many thanks. It really takes care of itself, thanks to all the great comments and questions from many friends like yourself. Hope I haven’t misunderstood your points as I think I may have done last time. Keep up your useful and challenging questions to us all. Sarah ====================================================== 11032 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 0:37am Subject: Re: Attachment to somebody (not to material object) Hello Yulia, When I was listening to Bhikkhu Bodhis' tapes, I noticed a tape on "Attachment in Family Relationships" by Ajahn Vayama. I haven't listened to it, but it is 47 minutes long so I expect it may take about 20 minutes to download. It requires a Windows Media player which you can obtain free from the site. Hope this is of some help. http://www.watthai.net/sounds.htm (You will need to scroll down to just above Bhikkhu Bodhis' picture. It is the fourth tape above his picture.) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Yulia Klimov" wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > Can you please, help me to find any talk on attachment to people. > Is it possible to be mindfully not-attached to husband? I am not mention > children yet :). > > Thank you, > Yulia 11033 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Photos Thanks, Lisa and Dan. And thanks also to Gayan, Herman, Howard, Num, Rob Ep, Victor and everyone else who has posted pics. Nice to see you all! Jon --- lisa14850 wrote: > Dan and I just posted some photos of our family. Hope we don't break > your computer screen. > > Lisa 11034 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 2:55am Subject: Re: samma samadhi Dear Herman, You said - Herman: "I see no reason why people should feel as though they must reject on some a priori basis the very small amount of control they can and do exert in their life. After all Ken O went to the toilet , and didn't do it in his pants. The fact that Ken O choose to go to the toilet is not without consequences, and had he chosen to do it in his pants that would have had it's own consequences as well." CJF: I take your point that there is a limited amount of control within daily life. I prefer to call it choice, but KenO didn't choose to 'go', he only had a choice of venue (thank goodness!) - not of whether or not the action would proceed, so to speak.... [apologies to KenO - this is just the consequences of posting 'that' post originally] Herman: "I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the state of bliss :-)" CJF: http://www.egberdina.com/herman.au is a good enough reference for me. :-) Cheers, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I hope I am replying to the right post :-) I've had some difficulty > getting my posts through recently, as well. > > I do not believe that the notion of control and cause and effect are > mutually exclusive at all. I guess they would be if either were used > in some absolute sense. Such usage tends to occur in religious > circles. I see no reason why people should feel as though they must > reject on some a priori basis the very small amount of control they > can and do exert in their life. > > After all Ken O went to the toilet , and didn't do it in his pants. > The fact that Ken O choose to go to the toilet is not without > consequences, and had he chosen to do it in his pants that would have > had it's own consequences as well. > > To point to the inevitable demise of the body as proof absolute that > there is no control possible at all is a very extreme position. On > the other hand, to say that all things happen because of conditions > is to say precisely nothing at all. The same goes for the often used > references to accumulations. > > Life is like a Rorhschach blot, there is no causal nexus between what > goes on and how you respond to it. Nonetheless, things go on, and > being a spectator is just not possible. > > I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the state of > bliss :-) > > > All the best > > Herman 11035 From: fcckuan Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 8:12am Subject: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's I would also like to see some discussion. It's an excellent topic. I have some questions and comments: 1) Seeing asubha as subha (the impure as pure). What principle is referred to by pure? The Ledi Sayadaw booklet does not really explain. I would have to guess pure has to refer to something mundane like belief in principle of kamma. 2) It always struck me as incredibly hilarious (in an ironic way) that the 4 hallucinations is exactly the opposite of reality. I.e. people search for happiness in EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE direction of how reality works. Stupid humans. 3) The progression of how different stages of ariya penetrate or remove these hallucinations at the 3 different levels of views, perceptions, consciousness in a certain order seems kind of artificial and contrived to me. To paraphrase a verse from Samyutta, "One who sees the first noble truth of dukkha penetrates all four noble truths." In other words, it makes more sense to me that the ariya would eradicate these hallucinations not in discrete chunks, but instead in a continuous deepening of realization, where dukkha is seen as dukkha and impermanence is seen at impermanence. Makes no sense to me that they would see impermanence but not dukkha. 4) Where in the pali suttas does it talk about the aggregate of perceiption being "memory"? I'd like to learn more about this. More questions and comments later. -fk --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Kom, Nina and all > > Many thanks for posting the summary of the recent Bay Area talk. I would > like echo Nina's comments in her post to you about your substantial and > much appreciated contribution to the discussion on the list here. > > I don't want to burden you further, so I will direct this question to > everyone. Could we possibly have some daily-life examples of the 3 > categories and 4 objects of vipallasa's, please. I would be interested to > discuss further. Thanks. > > Jon > > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Nina, > > > > I am assigned to post some (not sure how much) information > > about what the Bay Area's dhamma study group discussed this > > week. On the 20th, we generally discussed 2 topics: > > vipallasa (perversions), and citta-vithi (panca-dvara only, > > haven't got to mano-dvara yet.) > > > > As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: > > 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) > > 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) > > 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) > > > > Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only with the > > 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) with > > micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and citta > > vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some ariyans > > exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in sobhana > > (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu > > cetasikkas) cittas. > > > > The objects of the vipalassa are four: > > 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance > > 2) Seeing dukha as sukha > > 3) Seeing anatta as atta > > 4) Seeing asubha as subha > > > > The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one becomes > > an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are as > > followed: > > > > Impermanence Dukha Anatta Asubha > > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D > > > > Satipathana eliminates the vipallasa gradually. Different > > kinds of satipatthana eliminate different kind of vipallasa > > as followed: > > > > Kaya-nupassana eliminates asubha vipallasa > > Citta-nupassana eliminates impermanence vipallasa > > Vedana-nupassana eliminates dukha vipallasa > > Dhamma-nupassana eliminates anatta vipallasa > > > > K. Jack mentioned that a type of satipatthana, even though > > it eliminates a type of vipallasa as its main function, it > > also eliminates other vipallasa, but not as its main > > function. > > > > The rest of the session we spent discussing vithi-cittas. > > > > Nina, we also taped the entire session (for the first > > time!). I am not sure of the sound quality of the tapes, > > but it you like to have them, I can send them to you. > > > > kom 11036 From: egberdina Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 2:47pm Subject: Winnie the Pooh (was Re: samma samadhi) Dear Christine, I hope I am not labouring the point here, but the following is my brief description of the extent of a fictitious Winnie the Pooh's ability to control his bowel movements. And certainly, choice is a good word to use. Winnie the Pooh is able to: 1 Defer for a variable but limited time the moment of his evacuation 2 Because of 1 above he is able to pick, to an extent, the location where this event will take place, and which commentary he will take with him to read. 3 Because Winnie is able to control, to a certain extent, which foods and liquids he ingests, he is able to control, to a certain extent, the consistency and quantity of what comes out. Nonetheless, Pooh must poo and this is his samsaric suffering. I feel there is a bit of a parallel with the Dhamma here. We have some control over what we occupy our minds with. And you can guarantee that what we take in will come out again. And as anyone who has ever fasted for a prolonged period of time will know, when you ingest nothing, after a while nothing comes out! I loved your link! All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > You said - > Herman: "I see no reason why people should feel as though they must > reject on some a priori basis the very small amount of control they > can and do exert in their life. > After all Ken O went to the toilet , and didn't do it in his pants. > The fact that Ken O choose to go to the toilet is not without > consequences, and had he chosen to do it in his pants that would have > had it's own consequences as well." > > CJF: I take your point that there is a limited amount of control > within daily life. I prefer to call it choice, but KenO didn't > choose to 'go', he only had a choice of venue (thank goodness!) - not > of whether or not the action would proceed, so to speak.... > [apologies to KenO - this is just the consequences of posting 'that' > post originally] > > Herman: "I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the > state of bliss :-)" > > CJF: http://www.egberdina.com/herman.au is a good enough reference > for me. :-) > > Cheers, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > > > I hope I am replying to the right post :-) I've had some difficulty > > getting my posts through recently, as well. > > > > I do not believe that the notion of control and cause and effect > are > > mutually exclusive at all. I guess they would be if either were > used > > in some absolute sense. Such usage tends to occur in religious > > circles. I see no reason why people should feel as though they must > > reject on some a priori basis the very small amount of control they > > can and do exert in their life. > > > > After all Ken O went to the toilet , and didn't do it in his pants. > > The fact that Ken O choose to go to the toilet is not without > > consequences, and had he chosen to do it in his pants that would > have > > had it's own consequences as well. > > > > To point to the inevitable demise of the body as proof absolute > that > > there is no control possible at all is a very extreme position. On > > the other hand, to say that all things happen because of conditions > > is to say precisely nothing at all. The same goes for the often > used > > references to accumulations. > > > > Life is like a Rorhschach blot, there is no causal nexus between > what > > goes on and how you respond to it. Nonetheless, things go on, and > > being a spectator is just not possible. > > > > I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the state of > > bliss :-) > > > > > > All the best > > > > Herman 11037 From: tikmok Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bay Area Study Topics Dear Nina, Will do. Will report some when a topics that might be interesting to this forum... kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 10:14 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Bay Area Study Topics > > > op 25-01-2002 09:17 schreef Kom Tukovinit op tikmok@y...: > > It is nice if you report now and then on the > topics, but this depends on the topics you like yourselves and on > your time, > since you spend a lot of time answering questions and helping > people here on > dsg. You may combine now and then, depending on the occasion, both some > topics of the Bay area and questions brought up here on dsg, is that an > idea? But it should not be a burden or too time consuming. > Nina. > 11038 From: tikmok Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 5:09pm Subject: Re: ayatanas Dear Robert, > -----Original Message----- > From: robertkirkpatrick.rm [mailto:robertkirkpatrick@r...] > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:12 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: ayatanas > > > --- > > Dear Nina, > Thanks for this quote from the meeting, which is what Khun Sujin also > said to me in Bangkok. I see that only the arrest bhavanga citta is > the mind-door. However, aren't the other bhavanga cittas also > ayatana - albeit not doors(dvara)? Dispeller of delusion 226 p.56 > says that the "mindbase is of 81kinds according to its classification > into profitable, unprofitable, resultant and functional > consciousness." 81 kinds? What does Dispeler of delusion say about the other 8? Thanks. kom 11039 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 5:38pm Subject: Fw: Virus alert! Do not open "new photos from my party" Dear Friends and Family, The virus alert below is not a hoax since I had received that very same message with "new photos. . ." and my machine needed to be rebooted. Fortunately, no damage was done since I keep my virus protection up to date. However, please beware of such messages, even when they come from persons you know. All the best, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 5:55 AM Subject: Virus alert! Do not open "new photos from my party" Please do not open a file from anyone that says "new photos from my party" It has already destroyed the computer of a friend's executive assistant and is quickly spreading everywhere. I don't know where it comes from. 11040 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 7:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment to somebody (not to material object) Hi Yulia When you are mindful, it is impossible to be attached. They don't go hand in hand. Others are better in explaining mindfullness than me. kind regards Ken O > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Yulia Klimov" wrote: > > Hello, everyone. > > > > Can you please, help me to find any talk on attachment to people. > > Is it possible to be mindfully not-attached to husband? I am not > mention > > children yet :). > > > > Thank you, > > Yulia 11041 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 7:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kukkucca ?=regret Hi Lucy > This seems to imply some wisdom in recognising what is kusala or > akusala. But couldn't kukkucca arise just from fear of the consequences as in the case of a criminal afraid he'll be caught? If the criminal were sure that he'll get away with it, he may not experience kukkucca at all. (?) But> for one who follows the Dhamma there'll be a lot more occasions for kukkucca! It may even reach the stage of believing that we can't "progress" in the path because of past wrong actions. I presume that's when kukkucca becomes> a hindrance (nivarana) (?) > > So, what do we do? I think there is a need to make a distinction between kukkucca and hiri (remorse). We could regret we do this actions or whatever, but it is remorse that assist us in development. A rich person may regret donating a dollar even though the person is rich. A poor person is remorse that he/she could not donate a dollar bc he/she is poor. Then there is development for the poor and not the rich person. Why should we regret when we are not practising mindfullness. I think we should be remorse abt it and not regreting it. Hopes it helps or I am confusing the matter more. Kind regards Ken O 11042 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 7:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Rupa of Air I thought air is also make up of the 4 great elements as stipulated in the Abidhamma. In fact, heat, water and earth is also make up of the 4 great elements in the Abhidhamma. I think the problem is the definition of the four great elements of rupa in Abhidhamma. these four great elements are not the same as the four elements we usually conventionally understand like air, heat... Presently in another place hence do not have the definition provided by Abhidhamma for the four great elements. kind regards Ken O 11043 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samma samadhi Hi Christine, There is a Chinese Buddhist saying "no effort is effort". Beginners like me definitely got to control our behaviour bc we have not reach the stage where mindfullness is the guardian of our behaviour. What Abhidhamma trying to achieve in my opinion is "no effort is right effort" that is developing mindfullness till it becomes a natural habit. When we are mindful there is no need to control, all behaviour, speech and mental actions falls in line. So presently there are two schools of thoughts in DSG. One that is control and the other that is no control is possible since it is all conditions. In my perspective until mindfullness has been developed to that level of unprompted, all our efforts are usually self control. there is a need for self control for beginners like me bc it is the basis for development as said in the 8Np, until then we should not worry abt whether our control is attached to self or not bc it will be clear when mindfullness as guardian of our mind is able to exercise its full functionality reaching a stage of "no effort is right effort". kind regards Ken O --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Herman, Jon and All, > > Herman, my attention was caught by your mention of control. > "To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times > a > day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled > them?", which I took to mean that you think there IS control. > But, as you also said 'I do not believe there is such a thing as an > ultimate goal, only cause and effect." which I took to mean that you > think there ISN'T control. So, I'm not sure if you have a positon on > this..... > > Couldn't it be said that it all depends on conditions? You, > presently, are physically mobile and healthy. Many unwell people may > wish to have even simple 'control' over bodily functions - but > wishing doesn't make it so - you have 'it' until conditions change. > As a, perhaps irrelevant, side-note, I was reading that in World War > 1, the dastardly British (sorry Sarah & Lucy) achieved considerable > success in interrogating Officer prisoners by the simple method of > hospitality (food and drink) combined with long interrogation > interviews, plus the Officer Class's inhibitions about mentioning the > need to use the bathroom. (Ordering the body not to be experiencing > discomfort or to halt the digestive process would have been to no > avail - no control?). Rather than ask a socially demeaning question > (psychologically this was impossible for them - no control?), the > Officers became distracted, and revealed information which they > didn't wish to do - (no control?) to end the session, because the > routine was that Prisoners were always taken back to their cell via a > trip to the bathroom. > So what is meant when the word 'control' is used? > Perhaps 'influence' might be an alternative - Intention combined with > Action combined with Hope for a desired result? > > I still find the idea of no control hard to understand/accept, and > would be delighted if someone showed me a loophole .......but, > despite trying, I can't point to any area of life where there is > complete control. Control seems to be one of those words where it > is 'all' or 'nothing'. > And, last but not least, 'who' is it that would have this control? > > On the subject of 'control'/'no-control'.......how does 'padhana' > relate? Does the 'rousing of will' in this teaching mean that the > application of effort achieves a 'controllable' result? (planning > and goal setting) > "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome > things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome > things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them > disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full > perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, > exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > > > > > > > I'm interested though that you see bliss as the ultimate goal. > Do > > share > > > more when you are ready. > > > > If we were in court, I'd have to accuse you of leading the > witness :- > > ). I do not see bliss as the ultimate goal. I am not trying to be > > tricky here, but I do not believe there is such a thing as an > > ultimate goal, only cause and effect. The state of bliss, within > this > > frothing, bubbling cauldron of reiterating consequences, is a > > possibility. > > > > Theravada Buddhism was born out of the extreme existential anxiety > of > > one man, Gautama, within his social and environmental context. He > had > > sufficient insight prior to enlightenment to be anxious. His > anxiety > > was sufficient enough for him to forsake everything, and say "I > will > > not stop until I find a better way of being". He discovered for > > himself how cause and effect resulted in the anxious mindstate he > > found himself in. Being released from anxiety caused by ignorance > (an > > unskilful mindstate of his own creation), he then set about > teaching > > people to train their minds, so as to be free from the consequences > > of their untrained mind. > > > > To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times > a > > day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled > them? > > > > If you don't soil your trousers anymore, are you still soiling your > > mind? > > > > > > Herman > > 11044 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important --- anders_honore wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- rikpa21 wrote: > > > > What is emptiness? > > > > > > It entirely depends. :) > > > > I'll throw in my two cents on emptiness. To me it is seeing that every > > experience is 'core-less'. When I look into the depths of experience there's > > nothing in the middle. It's all periphery. > > That is only "partial" emptiness. You are still labeling the experience as being > 'core-less'. As long as you're perceiving anything as being 'something', it's > still not seeing emptiness. > > But even that labeling is emptiness.... Anders, I think there's a danger of cofusing emptiness with nothingness. To see things as 'not being anything' is to perhaps deny their arising and see them as 'nothing', a denial of phenomena. To see phenomena as coreless sees that they both are and are not: they arise as seeming objects, but at the same time have no defineable reality. It does deny the apparency, but it does refrain from giving it a definition that would allow it to be seen as solid, or real. But at the same time it also refrains from saying they are nonexistent, and thus avoids falling into the urge to annihilate samsara. Robert 11045 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Dear Rob Ep, Rob Ep’s Marathon -Stage One -------------------------------------------- --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Sarah, > But the person who is sitting in > the car > 'imagining' possibilities and thinking they are actual will never ever > get where > they're going. Now we could really go nuts and say that Buddha is the > guy in the > tow truck, but I'll leave it for now....... Just as well as it’s all rather beyond me;-) I could never cope with car mechanics but have been mercifully car-free for the last 20yrs;-) > Another excellently clear description. I guess my problem is that I see > even the > rupa as being inherently conceptual. It seems to me that the 'paramatha > dhammas' > constitute the Abhidhamma's version of the 'absolute state of pure > consciousness', > a state without imperfection, because it perceives exactly what is there > without > undue conceptualization. But in the case of the paramatha dhammas, the > 'pure > rupa' is still an absolute experience of an object, and to me even a > momentary > aspect of an object can never be absolute. I’m getting lost here as well. There is no ‘pure’ rupa in the Tipitaka as such. When we discuss paramattha dhammas and rupas, rupa is not any kind of experience of anything. Rupas do not experience, they are experienced (by namas). A rupa such as hardness or smell is very real to the touching or smelling regardless of whether there is any awareness at that instant. Of course, now when we discuss the hardness or smell, it’s a concept of them that we’re discussing. This doesn’t mean they aren’t being experienced or cognized just as they are, however. If there is awareness, the awareness is aware of their ‘paramattha’ or ‘absolute’ or ‘true’ nature. >Even though over many passes > by sati > and panna the true characteristics of the rupas become discerned, there > is still > no actual contact with the rupa from my standpoint. This 'coming to > know' is a > process of deduction and accumulation of separate experiences. It’s true there has to be correct intellectual consideration and understanding initially, using deduction and so on. Still, regardless of whether the understanding is conceptual or direct, there is still the contact of rupas occurring all the time. Right now, there is seeing a rupa (visible object), touching another (hardness), regardless of whether there is any knowledge or not. The knowledge (if it arises) merely shows what is experienced anyway. It isn’t resulting in different objects being seen or touched, for example. Sati (awareness) accompanies each moment of wholesome consciousness, but if it is sati of satipatthana, it is directly aware of a reality, not just conceptually, however brief and unclear it may seem. >This > sort of > 'coming to know' through repeated passes seems to me to be conceptual in > nature, > because it seems to me that consciousness is piecing together a picture > with > increasing knowledge. This does not seem to be direct and just in the > moment, it > is gradual, cumulative, and consciousness-derived. It has to be like this in the beginning, I think. I agree with the > analysis that > most of what we experience is conceptual and we don't realize it - we > think it's > real - I'm just not sure that the analysis of paramatha dhammas doesn't > stop at > the brink of realizing that it's *all* conceptual by its very nature. > Instead > there is a saving category that allows us to get to a 'reality' beyond > our own > limited perceptual and conceptual equipment, and I wonder if that is > really the > case. Rather than absolute realities, I would see the wise discernment > of namas > and rupas as being a 'true analysis of the way in which impressions are > transmitted by consciousness', which is not absolute in itself, but > provides a > foundation for wisdom about the human condition. I agree that the ‘true analysis.....” provides a foundation...” there has to be plenty of this true analysis too, over and over again. However, this is not what is referred to as the ‘wise discernment of namas and rupas’, because it is just analysis and not the direct understanding of these paramattha dhammas. However, realizing as you do here, that the understanding is only on a conceptual level as yet, is a very big step in the right direction to my mind. If we think we already clearly understand the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and so on or have attained high levels of insight, it is a lot harder to begin to understand namas and rupas and to see how little is really known. > This allows one to make the analysis of anatta, anicca and dukkha, but > without > positing absolute objects, which I think must be a form of reification > of the > momentary experience which is always delivered through a > perceptual-conceptual > apparatus, never 'in itself' in some 'actual' form, except the form of > 'mind' or > 'consciousness'. Hmm....We can talk about or analyse the 3 characteristics above, but I think it’s meaningless unless we discuss what they are characteristics of: i.e paramattha dhammas or namas and rupas. This may even be one of Victor’s points. We can discuss the characteristics of seeing or visible object, for example, but not of concepts such as walking or balloons. Again, it’s true that if we ‘analyse’ seeing or visible object now, that it is a concept and the ‘perceptual-conceptual apparatus’ is at work as ‘we’ think. It may be with right understanding or with wrong understanding and reification. The aim is not to stop thinking, which is conditioned like all other realities, but again to understand its nature directly as it occurs. Maybe that’s enough for Stage One...time for refreshment;-) I’ll come back a little later to continue. Thanks for the chance. Please chip in anytime as I have no idea when or if I'll finish the complete marathon. You'll also notice I cheated a little at the beginning and took a short-cut;-) Sarah ====================================================== 11046 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 11:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: concepts/Kom Dear Howard & Victor, Howard, thanks for your helpful explanation of the expressions. > -----Original Message----- > Running the risk of being disagreeable, I would like to say that it is not > the wisdom that clearly and directly sees the separation and the > distinction > between nama and rupa as dhammas, but one sees clearly and directly the > separation and the distinction between nama and rupa with/through wisdom. > Wisdom of what? Wisdom of seeing thing/phenomenon as it actually is: > "This > is impermanent. This is unsatisfactory. This is not oneself." Until one reaches the third stage of Vipassana nana, sammasana nana, then it is impossible that there is a direct insight of impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of all dhammas. This is why it is important to know the different levels of Vipassana nana, so that we don't mistake thinking about impermanence, unsatifsactorieness, and anattaness, as direct insight. It is important to know what are objects of Satipatthana (realities, and not concepts), what conditions Satipatthana to arise, and what aspect of realities the different levels of panna penetrates. This is so that we don't mistake what is not to be what is. If miccha-vimutti (wrong release, for people who mistake that they have reached nibbana) is possible, then micha-patipati (wrong practice), and misunderstandings of the dhammas are possible. kom 11047 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 0:02am Subject: Re: ayatanas --- Good question Kom. It doesn't say as far as I can tell . I am pretty hopeless when it comes to ayatana. Perhaps nina will know the meaning here. (And maybe jon will see that it is good to know the letter(in this case number) as well as the meaning.:)) robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "tikmok" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: robertkirkpatrick.rm [mailto:robertkirkpatrick@r...] > > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:12 PM > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > Subject: [dsg] Re: ayatanas > > > > > > --- > > > > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for this quote from the meeting, which is what Khun Sujin also > > said to me in Bangkok. I see that only the arrest bhavanga citta is > > the mind-door. However, aren't the other bhavanga cittas also > > ayatana - albeit not doors(dvara)? Dispeller of delusion 226 p.56 > > says that the "mindbase is of 81kinds according to its classification > > into profitable, unprofitable, resultant and functional > > consciousness." > > 81 kinds? What does Dispeler of delusion say about the other 8? > > Thanks. > > kom 11048 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca? Dear Christine, You raised some useful points and it’s always helpful to talk about our daily life experiences;-) .> I ask this question in the spirit of regarding everything that > happens in our daily lives as 'grist for the mill' of Dhamma study. > > Recently I felt I may have offended a friend and apologised. The > friend hadn't been offended, but wondered if my apology may have > arisen by receiving a wrong impression from something he had said in > an unskilfull manner. One or two other friends felt something THEY > may have said could also have contributed to me being offended. I > was amazed as I was NOT offended and saw nothing to be offended > about. I thought I was the perpetrator not the victim. :-) And so > did each person. ********** You asked later about whether these were ‘papanca’ (proliferations) and I like your analogy of the ‘runaway train’ at the end. I think these points are also relevant to Herman’s ‘cut the thinking’ approach and comments. ********** Rob K wrote a really detailed and very helpful post on papanca : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/523 in which he discusses the 3 kinds of papanca, i.e tanha (attachment), ditthi (wrong view) and mana (conceit). ********** I think that when we are lost in our stories, there is bound to be plenty of attachment and possibly wrong view and conceit. It just depends, I think. Sometimes when we read about the danger of papanca in the texts, we think this means we should think less. Really, I think it’s more a question of understanding the danger of tanha, ditthi and mana at these times as at other times. Certainly when we’re lost in the stories, the thinking is bound to be unskilful without any awareness of the thinking. However, this doesn’t mean that all thinking about concepts must be unskilful. If there is thinking with consideration or kindness for others now, or wise reflection on the dhamma, the thinking is still contemplating concepts, but it is useful and helpful reflection. At moments of samatha development, for example, the object is invariably a concept. So ‘non-complication’ as we often read in Suttas (as quoted below from Rob’s post) refers to skilful cittas which are not accompanied by tanha, mana or ditthi, rather than to a lack of thinking: ”In the Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta One of the suttas that Theresa emailed, in one sentence the Buddha told Anuruddha “This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.” ********** In another post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2064 Rob K discussed the use of mannana (conceiving or distortional thinking) as explained in the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta as a synonym for papanca. He quotes from B.Bodhi’s commentary notes and the connections with vipallassa (perversions) which those discussing that thread may also like to rconsider. These are fairly intricate areas and not an order or list to check off as Frank and Nina have rightly pointed out.. ********** In another useful post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2292 Rob points under that “Animals don't think in complicated ways but they have a full dose of papanca” because of the accumulated tanha, ditthi and mana. i like the way he ends this post with the following quote: “ In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) that Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing wise attention into existence.'" The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built up. It is a slow process but I can't see a faster way. “ ********** Mike also adds a helpful quote on proliferations: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2689 with an “unusual emphasis on papañca and its place in paticcasamuppada.” As we’re also discussing the paticca and tanha and other kilesa arising on account of feelings, I’d like to requote it here as well: "If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication [papañca] assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the underlying tendencies to passion, to irritation, to views, to uncertainty, to conceit, to passion for becoming, & to ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder." That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One Well-gone got up from his seat and went into his dwelling." Majjhima Nikaya 18 Madhupindika Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn18.html ********** In another post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8875 I made the comment that we should remember there’s a very big difference between understanding the danger of the papanca (usually with wrong view) “and realizing that the Teachings are very profound and intricate and that the development of understanding is not a simple matter at all” as discussed in many suttas quoted here like: Samyutta Nikaya XX.7 Ani Sutta The Peg ********** Finally, Jon comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9070 “ As I understand it, when impressions are received through the sense-doors there will inevitably be paying attention with kilesa to the ‘sign’ (shape-and-form/nimitta) and ‘particulars’ (details/anubya~njana) of those sense-impressions. It seems to mean the absence of the guarding of the sense-doors.” If there weren’t these kinds of unskilful ‘paying attention’, and there were the ‘guarding of the sense-doors’ there would be no proliferations. “Visudhimagga I, 42, 54 At I, 42, a discussion of ‘Virtue as restraint of sense faculties’: <<‘On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends *neither the signs nor the particulars* through which, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. … [and so on for the other sense doors] …’ (M.i, 180) [This] is virtue of restraint of the sense faculties.>>” ********** So again we see the inter-relatedness, I think, between the sense doors and experiences, the unskilful mental states and the value of awareness and insight. I started off intending to add more details and references that I checked, but when I re-read these posts which I’ve just briefly mentioned, I found they already include a wealth of information. I hope you, Rob K or anyone else will follow up if you have anything further to add or comment on. with thanks for encouraging me to consider more, Sarah ====================================================== 11049 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 0:30am Subject: Winnie the Pooh (was Re: samma samadhi) Dear Herman, It was almost a compulsion to continue, and I only managed to resist because of a fear of offending the rest of the List with tasteless humour. However, you need to know that I often work in the Paediatric Ward and I have an arsenal of Pooh jokes up my sleeve to deal with sophisticated eight year olds. I could have, as a parting gift (or is it a Parthian Shot?), offered a small sample of these but chose instead to 'bear' the disappointment, abandoning the debate and relinquishing the field to you. Loved your post! metta, Christine Q. What do you get if you cross Winnie the Pooh with a donkey? A. Dhiarr-Eeyore! --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I hope I am not labouring the point here, but the following is my > brief description of the extent of a fictitious Winnie the Pooh's > ability to control his bowel movements. And certainly, choice is a > good word to use. > > Winnie the Pooh is able to: > > 1 Defer for a variable but limited time the moment of his evacuation > 2 Because of 1 above he is able to pick, to an extent, the location > where this event will take place, and which commentary he will take > with him to read. > 3 Because Winnie is able to control, to a certain extent, which foods > and liquids he ingests, he is able to control, to a certain extent, > the consistency and quantity of what comes out. > > Nonetheless, Pooh must poo and this is his samsaric suffering. > > I feel there is a bit of a parallel with the Dhamma here. We have > some control over what we occupy our minds with. And you can > guarantee that what we take in will come out again. > > And as anyone who has ever fasted for a prolonged period of time > will know, when you ingest nothing, after a while nothing comes out! > > I loved your link! > > All the best > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > > > You said - > > Herman: "I see no reason why people should feel as though they must > > reject on some a priori basis the very small amount of control they > > can and do exert in their life. > > After all Ken O went to the toilet , and didn't do it in his pants. > > The fact that Ken O choose to go to the toilet is not without > > consequences, and had he chosen to do it in his pants that would > have > > had it's own consequences as well." > > > > CJF: I take your point that there is a limited amount of control > > within daily life. I prefer to call it choice, but KenO didn't > > choose to 'go', he only had a choice of venue (thank goodness!) - > not > > of whether or not the action would proceed, so to speak.... > > [apologies to KenO - this is just the consequences of > posting 'that' > > post originally] > > > > Herman: "I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the > > state of bliss :-)" > > > > CJF: http://www.egberdina.com/herman.au is a good enough reference > > for me. :-) > > > > Cheers, > > Christine > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > > Dear Christine, > > > > > > I hope I am replying to the right post :-) I've had some > difficulty > > > getting my posts through recently, as well. > > > > > > I do not believe that the notion of control and cause and effect > > are > > > mutually exclusive at all. I guess they would be if either were > > used > > > in some absolute sense. Such usage tends to occur in religious > > > circles. I see no reason why people should feel as though they > must > > > reject on some a priori basis the very small amount of control > they > > > can and do exert in their life. > > > > > > After all Ken O went to the toilet , and didn't do it in his > pants. > > > The fact that Ken O choose to go to the toilet is not without > > > consequences, and had he chosen to do it in his pants that would > > have > > > had it's own consequences as well. > > > > > > To point to the inevitable demise of the body as proof absolute > > that > > > there is no control possible at all is a very extreme position. > On > > > the other hand, to say that all things happen because of > conditions > > > is to say precisely nothing at all. The same goes for the often > > used > > > references to accumulations. > > > > > > Life is like a Rorhschach blot, there is no causal nexus between > > what > > > goes on and how you respond to it. Nonetheless, things go on, and > > > being a spectator is just not possible. > > > > > > I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the state > of > > > bliss :-) > > > > > > > > > All the best > > > > > > Herman 11050 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Winnie the Pooh (was Re: samma samadhi) Dear Chris and Herman, No wonder Yahoo has been playing tricks and delaying posts from Down Under;-) I reckon you're a good match for each other when it comes to Pooh Dhamma S p.s Where's the samma samadhi and bliss I'm wondering? --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Herman, > > It was almost a compulsion to continue, and I only managed to > resist because of a fear of offending the rest of the List with > tasteless humour. However, you need to know that I often work in the > Paediatric Ward and I have an arsenal of Pooh jokes up my sleeve to > deal with sophisticated eight year olds. I could have, as a parting > gift (or is it a Parthian Shot?), offered a small sample of these > but chose instead to 'bear' the disappointment, abandoning the debate > and relinquishing the field to you. Loved your post! > > metta, > Christine > Q. What do you get if you cross Winnie the Pooh with a donkey? > A. Dhiarr-Eeyore! 11051 From: Victor Yu Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts/Kom Hello Kom, Thank you for sharing your views with us. Regards, Victor > Until one reaches the third stage of Vipassana nana, > sammasana nana, then it is impossible that there is a direct > insight of impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of all > dhammas. This is why it is important to know the different > levels of Vipassana nana, so that we don't mistake thinking > about impermanence, unsatifsactorieness, and anattaness, as > direct insight. > > It is important to know what are objects of Satipatthana > (realities, and not concepts), what conditions Satipatthana > to arise, and what aspect of realities the different levels > of panna penetrates. This is so that we don't mistake what > is not to be what is. If miccha-vimutti (wrong release, for > people who mistake that they have reached nibbana) is > possible, then micha-patipati (wrong practice), and > misunderstandings of the dhammas are possible. > > kom 11052 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Stage Two ------------- Dear Rob Ep, You wrote: > In other words, all human experience in the world of > objects > outside of mind is inherently defiled, irredeemably and irrevocably > defiled, > because any experience that comes through the human body and mind, the > individuated self which is identified with the body and senses, can > never get a > pure result that is somehow not the product of that equipment. As I mentioned in Stage One, we talk about cittas (consciousness) and cetasikas (mental factors) being defiled, but not rupas or ‘objects outside of mind’. Wrong view of an ‘individuated self which is..’ is also of course an akusala cetasika (unwholesome or defiled mental factor) which, as you suggest, will never lead to a ‘pure result’. . >But, to > be able to > see namas as what they are, and to be able to see rupas as the product > of the > namas that capture and portray them -- well, that would be seeing > directly the > exact product that the > *mind* creates in a human being. Just a sec....I’d rather refer to rupas as the objects or physical phenomena experienced (not products) of the namas. Of course, namas can also be the object of other namas too. And then I’m a little lost in what you say.... >And that would be coming in for a > landing in the > human reality. ? >But to see rupas as somehow independent outside of the > human act > of perception, sets up an ideal world beyond what our senses and minds > are > actually capable of discerning. I’m lost with the ‘ideal world’ too. If we talk about visible object, or sound or hardness (all rupas) as objects of experience by seeing, hearing, body consciousness or mind and their connected mental factors, I’m not sure why these would be considered as ‘independent outside...’ or any different from what is being experienced now, mostly with ignorance. >Any time we presume a real objective > world beyond > the mind's processes, we have lost the thread of reality, in my opinion. ? > That is > why I put my 'absolute reality' in a realm that is not part of the human > scene, > something that can only happen by mind regarding the properties at the > root of > mind itself. Maybe, but when we read about paramattha dhammas, they refer to the very real or actual phenomena which can be known and understood right now, very much part of the ‘human scene’. >As long as mind is focussed on its objects as if they > existed beyond > the mind, mind is still dealing with an illusion. In that case, it is > not an > illusion of a real self, it is an illusion of a real 'other'. ? > Again, if we see 'hardness' as a nama, I think we're on the right >rack: I think we’re on the wrong track here;-) > discernment of the mental product we perceive as 'hardness'. If we look > at it as > 'actual hardness directly apprehended' - a rupa that is really there - > we cloud > the role of mind in creating this impression and posit a reality beyond > the > senses. I have a feeling that is a mistake which leads to the > presumption of a > whole realm of illusion, a world of real objects which we presume but > can never > really know directly. Rob, I’m stumbling here quite a bit..... The rupas are very apparent and real and can be known directly at any moment. I don’t know whether we can say they are beyond the senses or not. Just now, regardless of whether there is any awareness, as soon as we open our eyes, seeing (nama) sees an object which thinking may think about and conjure up all kinds of stories. If we have the idea that these realities cannot be known or that it’s a matter of thinking and thinking, perhaps they won’t be known. R:>And your next statement points to this problem: > S:>> Of course, regardless > > of whether we kick the rock or not, there are rupas over there which >> make > > up what is called rock. > R:> Are there rupas 'over there'? How could we ever possibly know that, > except by > deduction and faith? I can't see that as a direct experience, except as > a direct > experience of mind's product: a nama. But rupas 'out there'? What > happens to > the mind when one takes away that presupposition. What do we really > really > experience as being 'out there' if we don't presume there is a world of > real > objects beyond our ability to apprehend? So we are not concerned and the Buddha’s path is not concerned with what is out there. All that is of importance is what can be directly known and understood by panna (wisdom) at this moment. We may make other inferences about others’ experience or about the rupas which make up a rock, but the reality to be known at these times is thinking. So we may even agree here;-) > However, without the experiencing of hardness, > > visible object and thinking, there is no experience of ‘rock’. > > And that may in fact be all there is of 'rock'. In common sense > thinking, of > course we presume that 'rock' is a real object. And we can bank on it > behaving > that way, since we are coordinated with that presumption of reality. > But as > Buddhists, we have to question where our reality really lives. Does it > really > live 'out there' somewhere, while we catch a glimpse of 'hardness' or > 'softness', > or are these impressions all we know for sure? > > I know it sounds solipsistic, but I want to try to be rigorous about > what we > really know and don't know. Good...I’m following a lot more easily here. In truth all that is ‘real’ when we look at the rock, are the seeing, visible object, touching and hardness (if touched) and lots of thinking with sanna (perception)and other mental factors. As I’ve been stumbling and going in circles on this stage (lack of training??), I think I’ll drop out here. If there are any particular points or questions from the rest of your post you’d like me (or anyone else) to comment on, perhaps you could repost them. Any Tipitaka support other than the famous (now infamous) Luminous Sutta would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Sarah ====================================================== 11053 From: anders_honore Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > --- anders_honore wrote: > > That is only "partial" emptiness. You are still labeling the experience as being > > 'core-less'. As long as you're perceiving anything as being 'something', it's > > still not seeing emptiness. > > > > But even that labeling is emptiness.... > > Anders, > I think there's a danger of cofusing emptiness with nothingness. Yes, that is why emptiness can be so hard to fathom. It's 'no- thingness'is often confused with nothingess. To see things as > 'not being anything' I'd rephrase and say: To not see things as anything. To see things as 'not being anything' still involves a negation. The true experience of emptienss is the absence of the extrapolating mind. > is to perhaps deny their arising and see them as 'nothing', a > denial of phenomena. Yes, there is certainly a danger in seeing emptiness in contrast to phenomena. > To see phenomena as coreless sees that they both are and are > not: they arise as seeming objects, but at the same time have no defineable > reality. It does deny the apparency, but it does refrain from giving it a > definition that would allow it to be seen as solid, or real. But at the same time > it also refrains from saying they are nonexistent, and thus avoids falling into > the urge to annihilate samsara. I am not saying to avoid it. Indeed, I will say that such a perception is extremely skilful. But it is perception nonetheless, and thus only 'partial emptiness'. 11054 From: anders_honore Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind- Anders --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > --- anders_honore wrote: > > > I'll make a mental note of it. But I don't really have much time to read > > the Tipitaka right now. > > When I've been really busy with work I've gone long spells with very > little Tipitaka reading, but it doesn't mean there isn't considering, > reflecting and devoloping of insight at these times;-) On the contrary. I've found that these qualities are often developed considerably more, when not devoting time to the scriptures. Such as these days. > I have to say I'd heard a rumour about a trip to Asia;-) Well, somebody is squealing around here ;-) > Sounds like it > should be a really great experience and i'm sure everyone will be > interested to follow you around if you have the chance to dive into the > odd internet cafe (plenty in bodh Gaya;-)) . Anders, Jaran and Ken O will > be glad to meet up with you in Singapore I know I'll be more than happy to. >and perhaps we can > persuade you to make the short hop to Bkk to meet another gang..if we're > around, we'd love to join you or encourage you to visit Hong Kong though I > have to say it's too hot for hiking then;-) well, it all depends on what will happen after Singapore. It may be New Zeland, it may be Thailand. I am not sure yet. > > In my experience, concepts are fundamentally rooted in delusion. > > I would put it a little differently; all unskilful cittas (moments of > consciousness) are rooted in moha (delusion), 'unskilful', in this relative context, must then be defined as 'cittas not leading to the cessation of suffering'. I agree, all such cittas are rooted in delusion. > some also rooted in lobha > (attachment) or dosa (aversion) as well. Inevitably, there is attachment during such moment. I'd throw in some desire as well to go with the clinging, and dependent on the circumstances, some aversion might arise as a consequence of that desire. > Now we cannot say concepts are > rooted in anything because they are not realities. True, the images created by the concepts are not reality, but that does not mean to mnegate the existence of the concepts themselves. It is exactly becausr they are not realities, that they are roted in delusion. They are misguiding. > Thinking, on the other > hand, which thinks unskilfully, such as the thinking which thinks concepts > are realities, is of course rooted in delusion. And a whole lot of skilful thinking is rooted in delusion as well. But such is the nature of expedient means. Poison to kill poison. 11055 From: egberdina Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 3:58am Subject: Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Dear Sarah, Robert et al, Just when you thought you were going to take a break on this :-) I believe some of the confusion that arises from the rupa / nama division is caused by the way the process of cognition is described. It is said that visible object impinges on the eye sense and seeing nama arises to know the object. The problem with this statement is that the cart is before the horse. The object does not become visible object until after it has been seen. Before it is seen (nama) it is not visible object, just object, and unknown at that, but there nonetheless. The objects that are discerned through the five sense doors impinge on all sense doors alike, and everything else within reach as well. Some rupas impinge meaningfully on more than one sense base and cause namas of more than one type. Sound, for example, can be heard but is also palpable as body sense. This way a deaf man is capable of tuning a musical instrument, based on the vibrations felt in the body. Sound can be felt. Do we identify two rupas in this case or one? Taste and smell are also deeply intertwined. What is the difference between a visible object rupa and a visible object arammana All the best Herman 11056 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:00am Subject: Re: one limb of 8 fold path more important --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "anders_honore" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- anders_honore wrote: > > > That is only "partial" emptiness. You are still labeling the > experience as being > > > 'core-less'. As long as you're perceiving anything as > being 'something', it's > > > still not seeing emptiness. > > > > > > But even that labeling is emptiness.... > > > > Anders, > > I think there's a danger of cofusing emptiness with nothingness. > > Yes, that is why emptiness can be so hard to fathom. It's 'no- > thingness'is often confused with nothingess. > > To see things as > > 'not being anything' > > I'd rephrase and say: To not see things as anything. To see things > as 'not being anything' still involves a negation. The true > experience of emptienss is the absence of the extrapolating mind. Just to share once again one of my favorite commentaries on emptiness, Professor Richard Hayes's unpacking of Nagarjuna, from the original Sanskrit> And hey, it also deals with prapanca and getting rid of all views and presuppositions! See: http://www.geocities.com/jiji_muge/mmk.html 11057 From: anders_honore Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > > ********** > I think (but only think), you and Howard are probably pretty close when it > comes to Nibbana and Parinibbana. Now I notice that some people (not > Howard) tend to use nibbana and parinibbana interchangably which I find a > little confusing. Of course, nibbana can have the two meanings, i.e > extinction of defilements and full extinction of the khandhas which we > usually refer to as parinibbana. Yes. And then there is the element of Nibbana, which is what people seem to be debating hotly here (whether it is a pure awareness or what). The main point of difference, imo, is whether the experience of Nibbana continues after Parinibbana or not. Since none of us have experienced parinibbana, I'll sign myself out the debate. .-) > When you mention the annihalationisht view of Buddhism as suggested by > cessation (of all khandhas at parinibbana), it reminds me of some > discussion with Howard who also referred to annihilationist sounding > statements by some of us. This partly prompted me to write a post with > references on my understanding of annihilationist theories as discussed by > the Buddha at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10500 > Suan also added some very useful posts and translation notes on > parinibbana which can be found under Parinibbana at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I read a sutta just last night, where the Buddha refuted an annihilationist view, consisting of just the cessation of a living being upon Parinnibbana. Not the cessation of self, but the cessation of a living being (which must be defined as the khandas, I'd reckon), and that is all there is to it. It seems the Buddha disagrees with that one, though I don't know if that negates your view of things too. 11058 From: egberdina Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: llumination of Anders face Dear Anders, I am pretty sure I cannot progress further on the path until you have posted a photo to this site. Please, do it, if only for my sake :-) Skol Herman 11059 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 5:07am Subject: List bulletin Dear Fellow DSG Members Some announcements and reminders-- 1/. Back-up archives at eScribe now 'open' As you know, all posts are backed-up to an archive site called eScribe. You can now access this site without having to provide a password (this is in line with the recent changes that made the dsg list-messages open to the public) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup 2/. Advertisements on Yahoo Groups website The ads at the website have recently become much more intrusive. If you are bothered by this, we suggest you set the 'Delivery' option to receive individual emails or daily digests to your email account. Another option would be to view the messages at the eScribe archives (although it's not possible to post from the eScribe archives) 3/. Viewing the Photos, Files of Bookmarks pages To view these pages you need to be both subscribed to dsg and registered with Yahoo Groups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup 4/. Posting messages Just a couple of requests/pointers for postings to the list— - Readers like to see a name at the end of a post, and preferably at the start too, (even if it's just 'All') - When replying to or quoting from a post, please indicate whose post it was and trim any non-relevant parts. - If giving a non-contextual reply to a post, put your comments before, rather than after, the other post if possible (this means the reader doesn't have to scroll to the bottom to see our message) 5/. Guidelines Please check the Guidelines from time to time, as they occasionally get updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DSG_Guidelines Jon & Sarah p.s. Any comments or queries on these or other moderator issues off-list, please. 11060 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control/No control (was, Re: samma samadhi) Herman --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > > > I'm interested though that you see bliss as the ultimate goal. Do > share > > more when you are ready. > > If we were in court, I'd have to accuse you of leading the witness:- ). And I think your objection would be upheld :- ((. Should've known better than to try it with you, Herman. >I do not see bliss as the ultimate goal. I am not trying to be > tricky here, but I do not believe there is such a thing as an > ultimate goal, only cause and effect. The state of bliss, within this > frothing, bubbling cauldron of reiterating consequences, is a > possibility. > > Theravada Buddhism was born out of the extreme existential anxiety of > one man, Gautama, within his social and environmental context. He had > sufficient insight prior to enlightenment to be anxious. His anxiety > was sufficient enough for him to forsake everything, and say "I will > not stop until I find a better way of being". He discovered for > himself how cause and effect resulted in the anxious mindstate he > found himself in. Being released from anxiety caused by ignorance (an > unskilful mindstate of his own creation), he then set about teaching > people to train their minds, so as to be free from the consequences > of their untrained mind. An interesting re-telling of the Buddha's quest for enlightenment. (Think I prefer the sutta version, though ;- )) . ) > To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times a > day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled them? > > If you don't soil your trousers anymore, are you still soiling your > mind? But are you saying that there is no such thing as incontinence? And if there is such a thing, then how many exceptions to a general rule are needed for it to be disproved? Must run (nature calls) Jon 11061 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello, > > No problem, I will try my best to explain how I understand it, but I am > afraid I would just repeat myself. > > I see panna as it actually is thus: "Panna is not mine. Panna I am not. > Panna is not my self." > Suppose it is panna that sees itself as it actually is, then panna knows > itself as panna. If panna understood panna thus: "Panna is not mine. > Panna I am not. Panna is not my self," panna would run into a self-denial. > Otherwise, panna would understand thus: "I am panna," and that is > self-view. > > Panna is not something or someone that sees or knows or understands. > > That is just my view on panna. Dear Victor, I understand your view. If a 'consciousness' or 'mental factor' such as panna had a view of itself, it would indeed be positing itself as a 'self' or 'entity' rather than as just the function which it performs. However, I would like to ask you: Isn't it possible for panna to know *it's own object*, which is *not* itself, without positioning itself as a 'self'? Can not panna know the characteristics of *another* object other than itself, without positing itself as anything at all? Panna looks into the contents of consciousness and the 'world'. In my understanding it does not look at itself. Therefore there is no problem with regarding itself as an entity or being or self. Panna looks at any other object that it encounters as partaking of anatta, anicca and dukkha. But why should it be called upon to look at its own attributes, since it itself does not exist as a thing? I'll be interested in your response. Best, Robert Ep. ======= 11062 From: Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ayatanas Dear Kom, Rob K, Nina and everyone, I am following the thread. Hmm, it's flavor-rich food for thinking. I am not really clear of the differences between ayatana, dhatu and dvara either. Hope you guys do not mind I thinking out loud. Manayatana and manodvara do not always mean the same thing : As in aspect of vithi-citta and vithi-mutta-citta, manodvara means bhavanga -cupatcheta (any of the 19 possible vipakka-citta). I think the reason it called a door is b/c it's the last citta before mano-dvara-vitthi starts (hmm, in pancha-dvara, it's a pasadarupa) As in aspect of ayatana, manayatana is not equal to manodvara. If you let me guess 81 citta are comprised of 79 citta (excluding 10 pancha-vinnana) plus 2 abhinna-citta (kusala and kiriya) = 81. I don't know, personally, I think all 89 citta should be included in manayatana. But some books mention that Dhammaayatana consists of 16 sukuma-rupa, 52 cetasika and nibbhana [I think pannatti should be included here as well] ( not including 7 visayarupa and 5 pasada). The other 12 gross rupa are in other 10 ayatana, so I do not know where to put the 10 pancha-vinnana. I do not have Dispeller of Delusion (I need a lot of dispeller :) ). From the Book of Analysis (Vibhaga), PTS 1969 by Ven. Sayadaw U Thittila, p. 91 ________________________________ 161. Therein what is mind base [manayatana]? Mind base as way of singlefold division: Is associated with contact. Mind base as way of twofold division: Is accompanied by root; is not accompanied by root. ………… Mind base as way of sixfold division: Eye consciousness; ear consciousness; nose consciousness; tongue consciousness; body consciousness; mind consciousness. Thus is mind base by the way of sixfold division. Mind base as way of sevenfold division: Eye consciousness; ear consciousness; nose consciousness; tongue consciousness; body consciousness; mind element; mind-conscious-element. Thus is mind base by the way of sevenfold division. ……………. _______________________________ So, according to the paragraph, my understanding is, the 10 panchavinnana are included in mind base (manayatana). 18 Dhatu is a different story, I feel like it's pretty concise of what it refers to. I tried to look up the definition of ayata. There are couple of different meaning. 1) Summary of Paramatthadhamma, A.Sujin: "Ayatana is the realities of paramattha-dhamma that meet when citta arise to know arammana for an instant. They can be categorized as 6 internal ayatana and 6 external ayatana. " 2) Abhidhmmattha-sagaha,by Narada Thera, 40. ayatana means a field, sphere, basis. 41.Cakkhayatana means the sensitive part of the eye which responds to visual stimuli. The four remaining sense-organs should be similarly understood. 42. Manayatana - There is no special organ for the mind like the physical organs. By mind-sphere is meant the 'adverting consciousness' (manodvaravajjana) together with the preceding 'arrest bhavanga' (bhavangupaccheda). See Chapter 1. 3) as I mention in the post from my Thai Abhidhmmattha-sagaha : Dhammaayatana consists of 16 sukuma-rupa, 52 cetasika and nibbhana. Thanks for learning and thought provoking post. I enjoy being a member of dsg. A lot more to learn. Looking forward to more discussion. Appreciate. Num __________________________________________ > The > > ayatanas are still an aspect of the teachings that are not clear to > > me. In fact, I rely on you to clarify. > > In the Salayatanavagga - 23(1) it says that 'the all' comprises the > > ayatanas and I had always assumed that ayatanas is another way of > > classifying all namas and rupas - (like the khandas and dhatus).. The > > commentary (SPK) to this says that by 'all' is meant ayatanasabha and > > bodhi's note p1399 says that this means all phenomena of the four > > planes. Bodhi p1400 says that "The six types of consciousness are > > included in the mind base (manayatana). Mind(mano), as a separate > > factor, the supporting condition for mind-consciousness, then becomes > > narrower in scope than the mind base;according to the commentary > > sysetm it denotes the bhavangacitta..Mind consciousness itself > > according to SPK comprises the mind-door adverting consciousness > > (maodvaravajjanacitta) and the javanas." > > It would be nice if we could have the complete translation of this > > section of the commentary. > > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > When > > we were > >> sitting near the Bodhi tree she said that we should know when and > > where > >> there are ayatanas. > >> They are an association of different realities such as eyebase, > > visible > >> object and seeing. We should not just learn the term ayatana but > > know that > >> there are ayatanas now. What do you think of the bhavanga citta > > (life > >> continuum)? Since this does not know an object that impinges on one > > of the > >> six doors, I am inclined to think that there are at the moment of > >> bhavangacitta no ayatanas. > > Dear Robert, > There is more on the ayatanas in Vis. p. 547 and Dispeller I, p. 55 and here > it is said : but only the part of the mind base (manayatana) called bhavanga > is the door of arising... The last bhavanga-citta (arrest bhavanga) before > the mind-door process begins is the mind-door. > It is important to ask ourselves, when are there the ayatanas. I read a > report (sarup) of the Foundation Meeting in Bgk on the ayatanas. It states > that cakkhayatana is the doorway of all the cittas arising in the process of > seeing-consciousness and that visible object, rupayatana is their object. > Some people think that there is only cakkhayatana when there is > cakkuvi~n~nana, visual consciousness, but this is not so. > > < This means that the eyesense (the pasada rupa) at those moments is the > eyedoor and the cakkhayatana of each moment of citta of the eye-door > process. And evenso is visible object rupayatana at each moment of citta of > the eye-door process. Because the eyesense and the visible object are > sabhava dhammas that have not fallen away, and they are associating or > concurring at each moment of citta of the eye-door process.> end quote. > I find that it is clearer now that ayatanas are daily life, not theory. They > are here and now. When we just read the classification of the six types of > consciousness included in the mind-base, where are the processes? > This is all for today, but, of course there is a lot more to it. > > Thanks for this quote from the meeting, which is what Khun Sujin also > > said to me in Bangkok. I see that only the arrest bhavanga citta is > > the mind-door. However, aren't the other bhavanga cittas also > > ayatana - albeit not doors(dvara)? Dispeller of delusion 226 p.56 > > says that the "mindbase is of 81kinds according to its classification > > into profitable, unprofitable, resultant and functional > > consciousness." > > 81 kinds? What does Dispeler of delusion say about the other 8? 11063 From: michael newton Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] List bulletin Hello!Sarah; This is Michael again,I'm living in the Small town of Garberville, Northern California.It's very rural here,We have a small dharma study group here where there are Zen,Theravada,and Tibetan style practice here.So,I was wrong in my understanding,and your not going to India after all.Think,I'll send Nina a email too.YOUR IN DHAMMA,MICHAEL 11064 From: michael newton Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ayatanas Hello!Nina; This is Michael Newton,and I live in Northern California near the Oregon border.I met you and Khun Sujin way back in 1976 in Sri Lanka. I was a monk then(rev.Alokananda)I know Ven.Dhammadaro too.Sorry to hear that he has passed away.Been in touch with Sarah.Saw some photos on the group yahoo page of Sujin,Sarah,and a picture of you and your husband in Sarnath.Hope you get this.YOURS IN DHAMMA,MICHAEL >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [dsg] ayatanas >Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:08:11 +0100 > >Dear Rob K, you said that A. Sujin spoke about the ayatanas (the bases on >which the processes of cittas depend), and what did she say? When we were >sitting near the Bodhi tree she said that we should know when and where >there are ayatanas. >They are an association of different realities such as eyebase, visible >object and seeing. We should not just learn the term ayatana but know that >there are ayatanas now. What do you think of the bhavanga citta (life >continuum)? Since this does not know an object that impinges on one of the >six doors, I am inclined to think that there are at the moment of >bhavangacitta no ayatanas. >Best wishes, Nina. 11065 From: egberdina Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 3:07pm Subject: [dsg] Control/No control (was, Re: samma samadhi) Dear Jon, If you are saying that the fact that incontinence does occur is proof that control is not possible at all, I would have to disagree. The voluntary nervous system places numerous bodily and mental functions under volitional control. That the level of voluntary control that can be exercised varies amongst the population in general is not in doubt. The statement that control is not possible at all is. You have a wicked sense of humour, though :-) All the best Herman -- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > > > > > > I'm interested though that you see bliss as the ultimate goal. Do > > share > > > more when you are ready. > > > > If we were in court, I'd have to accuse you of leading the witness:- ). > > And I think your objection would be upheld :- ((. Should've known better > than to try it with you, Herman. > > >I do not see bliss as the ultimate goal. I am not trying to be > > tricky here, but I do not believe there is such a thing as an > > ultimate goal, only cause and effect. The state of bliss, within this > > frothing, bubbling cauldron of reiterating consequences, is a > > possibility. > > > > Theravada Buddhism was born out of the extreme existential anxiety of > > one man, Gautama, within his social and environmental context. He had > > sufficient insight prior to enlightenment to be anxious. His anxiety > > was sufficient enough for him to forsake everything, and say "I will > > not stop until I find a better way of being". He discovered for > > himself how cause and effect resulted in the anxious mindstate he > > found himself in. Being released from anxiety caused by ignorance (an > > unskilful mindstate of his own creation), he then set about teaching > > people to train their minds, so as to be free from the consequences > > of their untrained mind. > > An interesting re-telling of the Buddha's quest for enlightenment. (Think > I prefer the sutta version, though ;- )) . ) > > > To those who doubt or reject the notion of control, how many times a > > day do you need to change your clothes because you have soiled them? > > > > If you don't soil your trousers anymore, are you still soiling your > > mind? > > But are you saying that there is no such thing as incontinence? And if > there is such a thing, then how many exceptions to a general rule are > needed for it to be disproved? > > Must run (nature calls) > > Jon 11066 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ayatanas Rob --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Good question Kom. It doesn't say as far as I can tell . I am pretty > hopeless when it comes to ayatana. Perhaps nina will know the meaning > here. Thanks for bringing up this area, which I am likewise very fuzzy on. > (And maybe jon will see that it is good to know the letter(in > this case number) as well as the meaning.:)) Yes, then i could have picked up the anomaly myself ;-). But luckily for me (and everyone) there are the likes of you and Kom around to keep us properly informed and on-track abhidhammically. Jon 11067 From: binh_anson Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:26pm Subject: Bravo! Re: List bulletin --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > 1/. Back-up archives at eScribe now 'open' > As you know, all posts are backed-up to an archive > site called eScribe. You can now access this site > without having to provide a password (this is in line > with the recent changes that made the dsg > list-messages open to the public) > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup > 2/. Advertisements on Yahoo Groups website > The ads at the website have recently become much more > intrusive. --------------------------------------------------- BA: Well done, Sarah! Thanks. For a silent lurker like me, who only reads messages from time to time at the website's archive, recent advertisements by Yahoo-groups are a real pain, an un-necessary dukkha! Metta, Binh PS. Sorry that I could not meet DSG friends in Bangkkok earlier this month, although I did manage to speak to Khun Amara on the phone. However, our family really enjoyed visiting a number of forest monasteries in the North-East of Thailand. 11068 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind- Anders Hi Anders. --- anders_honore wrote: A:> > > In my experience, concepts are fundamentally rooted in delusion. > > S:> > I would put it a little differently; all unskilful cittas (moments > of > > consciousness) are rooted in moha (delusion), > A:> 'unskilful', in this relative context, must then be defined > as 'cittas not leading to the cessation of suffering'. I agree, all > such cittas are rooted in delusion. S:As we are getting specific here, akusala (unskilful) cittas are not the only ones NOT leading to the cessation of suffering. According to my understanding, vipaka (result of kamma) cittas and all kusala (skilful) cittas not acompanied by rt.understanding would also have to be included in this category. S:> > some also rooted in lobha > > (attachment) or dosa (aversion) as well. > A:> Inevitably, there is attachment during such moment. I'd throw in some > desire as well to go with the clinging, and dependent on the > circumstances, some aversion might arise as a consequence of that > desire. S:Again, I’d like to nit-pick a little. I don’t think we can say ‘inevitably’ here. There are many, many moments in a day or even now when there are cittas (consciousness) rooted in moha (delusion) but not necessarily accompanied by attachment or aversion. On the other hand, whenever there is attachment or aversion, there is moha at these times. S:> > Now we cannot say concepts are > > rooted in anything because they are not realities. > A:> True, the images created by the concepts are not reality, but that > does not mean to negate the existence of the concepts themselves. It > is exactly because they are not realities, that they are rooted in > delusion. They are misguiding. S: Hmmmm....According to the Teachings (which is what we’re discussing I think;-), the images are not created by the concepts (pannatti) themselves, but by the thinking, perception and other realities. While concepts are experienced by the cittas which think, they have no existence in the sense that they have no sabhava (nature) or characteristics as realities do. It is the moha and ditthi which is misguiding as such, according to my understanding. You seem to suggest that all concepts (or all thinking of concepts in my terminology) is inherently unskilful. As I discussed with someone else yesterday (Rob Ep?), thinking can be very skilful. When there is metta, concept (person) is the object and yet, I’m sure we agree, it’s skilful. When we give, think wisely about the dhamma, abstain from harming an insect and so on, there are more skilful moments of thinking about concepts too. S:> > Thinking, on the other > > hand, which thinks unskilfully, such as the thinking which thinks > concepts > > are realities, is of course rooted in delusion. > A:> And a whole lot of skilful thinking is rooted in delusion as well. > But such is the nature of expedient means. Poison to kill poison. You are suggesting that kusala cittas (skilful consciousness) can be rooted in moha (delusion)??? I don’t think so. (Of course, we can say the latent tendency of moha is there until arahatship, however). Anders, I know you’re busy these days and also not a big fan (for now) of the Abhidhamma, but may I suggest these areas are all covered, for when you have time, in Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ to be found on Binh’s or Rob K’s websites at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links If you have any Sutta references from the texts you recently received to suggest support for any of your comments I’ve questioned, they would be interesting to see too;-) Be sure to keep us all up-dated on your travel plans so we can try to meet up with you somewhere. (Of course, the photo will not only speed up our various paths as Herman commented, but also make it easier to recognise you;-) Sarah ====================================================== 11069 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samma samadhi --- egberdina wrote: > I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the state of > bliss :-) Heh heh. That's pretty funny, Herman. Best, Robert 11070 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Highest Bliss --- egberdina wrote: I have a close association with a number of > people who are described in medical terms as having Attention Deficit > Hyperactivity Disorder. I believe they may be good candidates for > vipassana insight, because they show no preference at all to anything > in their environment. I do not wish to emulate them at this time. Herman, You're very sharp lately. Ever think of taking this on the road? Robert 11071 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca? Dear Sarah, and All, Thanks Sarah for your reply and the quotes and links you provide. Continuing to study them. But a few questions and comments to date......... You say: "I think it's more a question of understanding the danger of tanha, ditthi and mana." I wish someone had mentioned the word 'danger' when I first came to Buddhism. I seem to have heard the quick, sweet, simple version, and remember thinking how easy and comforting it was. Now, there appears to be so much more to it, to study and understand - not so easy, but much more comforting and real, somehow. I don't recall hearing the word 'papanca' before the last few weeks; proliferations had been mentioned, but not the teachings it pointed to. Tanha, ditthi and mana are often mentioned individually - but I was unaware of how sinister and well-disguised these "prolongers of samsara" are. In post 523, 'tanha' is said to come in and masquerade as 'sati' and that it may be useful to study its characteristics more. I wonder if there is a step before this? In order to study the characteristics of something, there has to be the ability to differentiate it from the swirl of feelings, thoughts, and incoming sensory impressions that engulf a person at every moment. One has to first be sure of the 'identity' of the intruder......... "We might start to see the difference between true sati and the manifold counterfeits that are actually tanha, a papanca, a prolonger of samasara. Also we might find out that when we thought we had sati often that this was merely mana, conceit – a papanca, a prolonger of samsara. AND we might begin to realize that when we had the idea that we could make sati arise by concentrating that this is an idea of control, of self. That it is ditthi, another papanca, prolonger of samsara." I also liked "We need to bear in mind that the purpose of study, the purpose of discussion is to help us better understand this moment." I wonder how can we ever be sure whether we have made any real progress? Couldn't constant questioning and doubt as to what is genuine lead to discouragement? always doubting? always suspecting we are fooling ourselves? The Buddha took "four uncalculably long periods plus one hundred thousand aeons" (one aeon is billions and billions of years) to become the Buddha. If this is an actual measure of the passing of time and not just an emphatic way of saying then Samsara seems horribly, wearyingly, endlessly, unbearably long........ Just my thoughts so far, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > You raised some useful points and it's always helpful to talk about our > daily life experiences;-) > > .> I ask this question in the spirit of regarding everything that > > happens in our daily lives as 'grist for the mill' of Dhamma study. > > > > Recently I felt I may have offended a friend and apologised. The > > friend hadn't been offended, but wondered if my apology may have > > arisen by receiving a wrong impression from something he had said in > > an unskilfull manner. One or two other friends felt something THEY > > may have said could also have contributed to me being offended. I > > was amazed as I was NOT offended and saw nothing to be offended > > about. I thought I was the perpetrator not the victim. :-) And so > > did each person. > ********** > You asked later about whether these were `papanca' (proliferations) and I > like your analogy of the `runaway train' at the end. I think these points > are also relevant to Herman's `cut the thinking' approach and comments. > ********** > Rob K wrote a really detailed and very helpful post on papanca : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/523 > in which he discusses the 3 kinds of papanca, i.e tanha (attachment), > ditthi (wrong view) and mana (conceit). <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>> 11072 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > I don't recall hearing the word 'papanca' before the last few weeks; > proliferations had been mentioned, but not the teachings it pointed > to. Tanha, ditthi and mana are often mentioned individually - but I > was unaware of how sinister and well-disguised these "prolongers of > samsara" are. > > In post 523, 'tanha' is said to come in and masquerade as 'sati' and > that it may be useful to study its characteristics more. I wonder if > there is a step before this? In order to study the characteristics > of something, there has to be the ability to differentiate it from > the swirl of feelings, thoughts, and incoming sensory impressions > that engulf a person at every moment. One has to first be sure of > the 'identity' of the intruder......... > ________ Dear Christine, I think what I find is that there is a little more understanding of tanha's tricks then before. Even now - just from considering the above statement - it means you are a little bit more alert. And that can grow. It doesn"t have to be the deep insight that clearly distinguishes tanha from other cetasikas or nama from rupa to help. Even a litle insight into its conditioned nature is worthwhile. > "We might start to see the difference between > true sati and the manifold counterfeits that are > actually tanha, a papanca, a prolonger of samasara. > Also we might find out that when we thought we had > sati often that this was merely mana, conceit – a > papanca, a prolonger of samsara. AND we might begin > to realize that when we had the idea that we could > make sati arise by concentrating that this is an idea > of control, of self. That it is ditthi, another > papanca, prolonger of samsara." > > I also liked "We need to bear in mind that the purpose of study, the > purpose of discussion is to help us better understand this moment." > > I wonder how can we ever be sure whether we have made any real > progress? Couldn't constant questioning and doubt as to what is > genuine lead to discouragement? always doubting? always suspecting > we are fooling ourselves? ____ When we are busy wondering whether we are making progress what is real at those moments? There are defilements and self, isn't there? And the only way out of this dilemma is to learn to study these moments as they arise - then they can be insighted as conditioned phenomena, as simply nama. Then the thinking just goes on but without attachment (or not so much) to it. I wrote most of that letter as a reminder to myself as I am an overestimator (adhimana) by nature. (I suspect you're an underestimator) > The Buddha took "four uncalculably long periods plus one hundred > thousand aeons" (one aeon is billions and billions of years) to > become the Buddha. If this is an actual measure of the passing of > time and not just an emphatic way of saying time> then Samsara seems horribly, wearyingly, endlessly, unbearably > long........ ________ Ohhh yeah. Samsara is a fearful thing. People react in several ways to this. 1. They ignore it. 2. They try to convince themselves that such teachings are metaphorical or were added in later times. 3. they get scared to death. 4. they realise that the only way out is to develop understanding, are grateful to know the danger, and become more and more interested in the moment. Personally I've tried the first three and they didn't do it for me. The 4th is the only way, and knowing about the beginningless samsara pushes one into the moment. Because a moment of seeing now is just like a moment of seeing last week and a moment last life and a moment one million lives ago. If there isn't some growth in understanding (and all types, whether theory or direct, help) then it will carry on like this and a zillion lives from now there will be seeing. And maybe in this future life we will again be thinking how long samsara is and wishing we were further along the path. All very natural to want something - it is conditioned. But insight does lead to less attachment to the idea of self. And wishing too should be an object. > > keep up the great work. kind regards robert 11073 From: fcckuan Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 7:31am Subject: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's Hello! Anyone out there? I checked and indeed this message actually did get posted. I did some research on my own questions, and made a little progress (I'll share below). But I still need some hints from you guys on how the sanna (perception aggregate) works as memory. Scriptural references would help, although I'm guessing it's probably later stuff like Abidhamma and commentaries, since it would have made an impression on me if I read anything in Samyutta and Majjhima describing memory and perception. Surely someone here can help me out. Show me some love. I looked up subha, asubha, in reference to the 4th vipallasa (perversion), and it refers not to mundane right views/wrong views, but with the loathsomeness of the body (along the lines of contemplation of impurity). In other words, Purity means we should see this our body as loathsome. I'd like to hear what you guys think about this, and I'll describe my opinion in more detail later maybe, but in short, I don't think this 4th vipallasa belongs in the exalted company of the other 3. -fk --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "fcckuan" wrote: > I would also like to see some discussion. It's an excellent topic. I > have some questions and comments: > > 1) Seeing asubha as subha (the impure as pure). What principle is > referred to by pure? The Ledi Sayadaw booklet does not really > explain. I would have to guess pure has to refer to something mundane > like belief in principle of kamma. > > 2) It always struck me as incredibly hilarious (in an ironic way) > that the 4 hallucinations is exactly the opposite of reality. I.e. > people search for happiness in EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE direction of how > reality works. Stupid humans. > > 3) The progression of how different stages of ariya penetrate or > remove these hallucinations at the 3 different levels of views, > perceptions, consciousness in a certain order seems kind of > artificial and contrived to me. To paraphrase a verse from > Samyutta, "One who sees the first noble truth of dukkha penetrates > all four noble truths." In other words, it makes more sense to me > that the ariya would eradicate these hallucinations not in discrete > chunks, but instead in a continuous deepening of realization, where > dukkha is seen as dukkha and impermanence is seen at impermanence. > Makes no sense to me that they would see impermanence but not dukkha. > > 4) Where in the pali suttas does it talk about the aggregate of > perceiption being "memory"? I'd like to learn more about this. > > More questions and comments later. > > -fk > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Kom, Nina and all > > > > Many thanks for posting the summary of the recent Bay Area talk. I > would > > like echo Nina's comments in her post to you about your substantial > and > > much appreciated contribution to the discussion on the list here. > > > > I don't want to burden you further, so I will direct this question > to > > everyone. Could we possibly have some daily-life examples of the 3 > > categories and 4 objects of vipallasa's, please. I would be > interested to > > discuss further. Thanks. > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Nina, > > > > > > I am assigned to post some (not sure how much) information > > > about what the Bay Area's dhamma study group discussed this > > > week. On the 20th, we generally discussed 2 topics: > > > vipallasa (perversions), and citta-vithi (panca-dvara only, > > > haven't got to mano-dvara yet.) > > > > > > As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: > > > 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) > > > 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) > > > 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) > > > > > > Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only with the > > > 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) with > > > micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and citta > > > vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some ariyans > > > exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in sobhana > > > (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu > > > cetasikkas) cittas. > > > > > > The objects of the vipalassa are four: > > > 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance > > > 2) Seeing dukha as sukha > > > 3) Seeing anatta as atta > > > 4) Seeing asubha as subha > > > > > > The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one becomes > > > an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are as > > > followed: > > > > > > Impermanence Dukha Anatta Asubha > > > Arahat X X X X X X X X X > X X X > > > Anagami X X X S C X X X X > X X X > > > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X > S C X > > > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X > S C X > > > Putujana S C D S C D S C D > S C D > > > > > > Satipathana eliminates the vipallasa gradually. Different > > > kinds of satipatthana eliminate different kind of vipallasa > > > as followed: > > > > > > Kaya-nupassana eliminates asubha vipallasa > > > Citta-nupassana eliminates impermanence vipallasa > > > Vedana-nupassana eliminates dukha vipallasa > > > Dhamma-nupassana eliminates anatta vipallasa > > > > > > K. Jack mentioned that a type of satipatthana, even though > > > it eliminates a type of vipallasa as its main function, it > > > also eliminates other vipallasa, but not as its main > > > function. > > > > > > The rest of the session we spent discussing vithi-cittas. > > > > > > Nina, we also taped the entire session (for the first > > > time!). I am not sure of the sound quality of the tapes, > > > but it you like to have them, I can send them to you. > > > > > > kom 11074 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:01am Subject: ayatana, to Suan, Rob K. Num, Kom. Dear Suan, Robert K. and I were having a discussion on the ayatanas, and then Num and Kom joined in. As I understand the ayatanas, these come into play also now, when an object impinges on a doorway and citta arises experiencing that object. The three of them meet or associate. As I understand it, the bhavangacittas experience their own object, not through a doorway, they do not take part of this scenario. However, I like to be corrected if I am wrong. The bhavangupaccheda, arrest bhavanga is the doorway of the mind-door process cittas. Thus, in as far as it is a doorway, it takes part of the ayatanas, it is also manayatana. Now, when cittas are counted, we have a dilemma. In the Dispeller of Delusion, Ch 2, no. 226, it is said that the manayatana, mind-base is 81 kinds of cittas, whereas in the Vis.XV, 14, manayatana is said to be 89 or 121 kinds, thus all cittas. This can be a matter of different classifications. When we take into account the vipakacittas that can perform the function of bhavanga, should these not be reckoned only as those that are bhavangupaccheda, thus, mind-door, manayatana? In other words, is it right that this does not mean that there are ayatanas at all those moments when bhavangacittas arise in between processes? Moreover, we also have to take into account all the different kinds of vipaka that perform the function of tadalambana (for kamavacara cittas and in the sensuous planes only) and are thus experiencing an object through a doorway, manayatana. You have such a wealth of information from all those Myanmar dictionaries you were speaking about with Jim, but I do not want to burden you. There is no hurry at all with this dilemma. I find that when I know which cittas are manayatana I can better understand when and where there are ayatanas. With best wishes, from Nina. 11075 From: michael newton Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] ayatana, to Suan, Rob K. Num, Kom. Hi!Nina; Did you get my last message?I'm Michael from Northern California. YOUR IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL NEWTON(REV.ALOKANANDA) >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [dsg] ayatana, to Suan, Rob K. Num, Kom. >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:01:17 +0100 > >Dear Suan, >Robert K. and I were having a discussion on the ayatanas, and then Num and >Kom joined in. As I understand the ayatanas, these come into play also now, >when an object impinges on a doorway and citta arises experiencing that >object. The three of them meet or associate. As I understand it, the >bhavangacittas experience their own object, not through a doorway, they do >not take part of this scenario. However, I like to be corrected if I am >wrong. The bhavangupaccheda, arrest bhavanga is the doorway of the >mind-door >process cittas. Thus, in as far as it is a doorway, it takes part of the >ayatanas, it is also manayatana. Now, when cittas are counted, we have a >dilemma. In the Dispeller of Delusion, Ch 2, no. 226, it is said that the >manayatana, mind-base is 81 kinds of cittas, whereas in the Vis.XV, 14, >manayatana is said to be 89 or 121 kinds, thus all cittas. This can be a >matter of different classifications. >When we take into account the vipakacittas that can perform the function of >bhavanga, should these not be reckoned only as those that are >bhavangupaccheda, thus, mind-door, manayatana? In other words, is it right >that this does not mean that there are ayatanas at all those moments when >bhavangacittas arise in between processes? >Moreover, we also have to take into account all the different kinds of >vipaka that perform the function of tadalambana (for kamavacara cittas and >in the sensuous planes only) and are thus experiencing an object through a >doorway, manayatana. >You have such a wealth of information from all those Myanmar dictionaries >you were speaking about with Jim, but I do not want to burden you. There is >no hurry at all with this dilemma. I find that when I know which cittas are >manayatana I can better understand when and where there are ayatanas. >With best wishes, from Nina. > > > 11076 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 0:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samma samadhi/KenO Hi Ken, Yes, I agree with what you say, and perhaps this is what Victor was pointing to when he said: <<<<>>>> Glad you're posting again, noticed your absence :) (So has David on D-L, if you would like to read post 27798 over there). metta, Christine--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine, > > There is a Chinese Buddhist saying "no effort is effort". Beginners like > me definitely got to control our behaviour bc we have not reach the stage > where mindfullness is the guardian of our behaviour. What Abhidhamma > trying to achieve in my opinion is "no effort is right effort" that is > developing mindfullness till it becomes a natural habit. When we are > mindful there is no need to control, all behaviour, speech and mental > actions falls in line. > > So presently there are two schools of thoughts in DSG. One that is > control and the other that is no control is possible since it is all > conditions. In my perspective until mindfullness has been developed to > that level of unprompted, all our efforts are usually self control. > > there is a need for self control for beginners like me bc it is the basis > for development as said in the 8Np, until then we should not worry abt > whether our control is attached to self or not bc it will be clear when > mindfullness as guardian of our mind is able to exercise its full > functionality reaching a stage of "no effort is right effort". > > > > kind regards > Ken O > 11077 From: egberdina Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:55pm Subject: Re: The Highest Bliss Dear Robert, I may end up needing to (take it on the road). The company I work for is on the precipice , and leaning towards the abyss. The thing worth mentioning about this is that I am not loosing my "peace". Wishing you well, as always Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- egberdina wrote: > > I have a close association with a number of > > people who are described in medical terms as having Attention Deficit > > Hyperactivity Disorder. I believe they may be good candidates for > > vipassana insight, because they show no preference at all to anything > > in their environment. I do not wish to emulate them at this time. > > Herman, > You're very sharp lately. Ever think of taking this on the road? > > Robert > 11078 From: Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Highest Bliss Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/31/02 5:57:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@d... writes: > Dear Robert, > > I may end up needing to (take it on the road). The company I work for > is on the precipice , and leaning towards the abyss. The thing worth > mentioning about this is that I am not loosing my "peace". > > Wishing you well, as always > > > Herman > =========================== Sorry to hear about this, but pleased with your maintaining equanimity. Might it be useful to you to mention to the group what you do and where you are located (approximately)? This would be in case some of us have any ideas or contacts? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11079 From: Victor Yu Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Hello Robert and all, I am afraid that I will not get into this discussion too much. To me, panna means wisdom or discernment. It is a quality that one can develop with morality and concentration. I don't see panna as something or someone that knows or understands. But that is just my view on panna. Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Epstein" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > > Hello, > > > > No problem, I will try my best to explain how I understand it, but I am > > afraid I would just repeat myself. > > > > I see panna as it actually is thus: "Panna is not mine. Panna I am not. > > Panna is not my self." > > Suppose it is panna that sees itself as it actually is, then panna knows > > itself as panna. If panna understood panna thus: "Panna is not mine. > > Panna I am not. Panna is not my self," panna would run into a self-denial. > > Otherwise, panna would understand thus: "I am panna," and that is > > self-view. > > > > Panna is not something or someone that sees or knows or understands. > > > > That is just my view on panna. > > Dear Victor, > I understand your view. If a 'consciousness' or 'mental factor' such as panna had > a view of itself, it would indeed be positing itself as a 'self' or 'entity' > rather than as just the function which it performs. However, I would like to ask > you: Isn't it possible for panna to know *it's own object*, which is *not* > itself, without positioning itself as a 'self'? Can not panna know the > characteristics > of *another* object other than itself, without positing itself as anything at all? > > Panna looks into the contents of consciousness and the 'world'. In my > understanding it does not look at itself. Therefore there is no problem with > regarding itself as an entity or being or self. Panna looks at any other object > that it encounters as partaking of anatta, anicca and dukkha. But why should it > be called upon to look at its own attributes, since it itself does not exist as a > thing? > > I'll be interested in your response. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 11080 From: Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] ayatana, to Suan, Rob K. Num, Kom. Dear Kom, Rob K, Nina, Suan and everyone, Ohoh, I made a wrong guess about 81 citta in manayatana. Well, the 2 abhinna citta always has a special place in counting. I think b/c eventhough they are mahakata citta but they has anything as their aramana ( there are some differences between the two). OK, I looked up the pali website VIR which contains chatta-sagayana pali, katha, tika and anutika. Due to my limited wisdom, I can only guess some words but unable to read the whole sentences. Well, I prond to tell you that, I can consult my aunt back in Thailand. She checked the Thai atthakatha version, so thing becomes clearer to me. [ Man±yatana½ tebh³makakusal±kusalavip±kakiriyaviññ±ºabhedena ek±s²tippabheda½. ] The word "tebhuma", means 3 planes. So this 81 citta is including only kamavacara, rupa- and arupavacara. The 8 lokuttara are not included in here. Hmmm, I was surprised that how come the same writer (PraBuddhagosacara) wrote 2 books differently. Well, thing become clear to me that the problem is my limited panna. Thanks Nina, Rob K and Kom for a very rich food for thought. Appreciate. Have to run, Num PS. Rob K, may I ask you to paste more from Dispeller of Delusion esp. the whole paragraph which contains the quote you quoted. I like to do reverse-engineering (reverse-transcriptase :)), to compare the Eng to Pali and Thai translation. 11081 From: egberdina Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 7:14pm Subject: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's Dear Frank, I loves you, baby :-) I'm sorry, this is the best I can do. I know nothing at all about the topic at hand. I just want you to know I do read your posts, and I always enjoy your style of writing. Alll the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "fcckuan" wrote: > Hello! Anyone out there? I checked and indeed this message actually > did get posted. I did some research on my own questions, and made a > little progress (I'll share below). But I still need some hints from > you guys on how the sanna (perception aggregate) works as memory. > Scriptural references would help, although I'm guessing it's probably > later stuff like Abidhamma and commentaries, since it would have made > an impression on me if I read anything in Samyutta and Majjhima > describing memory and perception. Surely someone here can help me > out. Show me some love. > > I looked up subha, asubha, in reference to the 4th vipallasa > (perversion), and it refers not to mundane right views/wrong views, > but with the loathsomeness of the body (along the lines of > contemplation of impurity). In other words, Purity means we should > see this our body as loathsome. I'd like to hear what you guys think > about this, and I'll describe my opinion in more detail later maybe, > but in short, I don't think this 4th vipallasa belongs in the exalted > company of the other 3. > > > -fk > 11082 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS Dear Anders, I lost a reply to you on this thread yesterday , so I’m trying to retrace my steps. We all seem to have our patience tested in this way;-) --- anders_honore wrote: > > Yes. And then there is the element of Nibbana, which is what people > seem to be debating hotly here (whether it is a pure awareness or > what). The main point of difference, imo, is whether the experience > of Nibbana continues after Parinibbana or not. Since none of us have > experienced parinibbana, I'll sign myself out the debate. .-) OK...I’ll just summarise by suggesting that if we accept (as stated clearly in my view) that panna (insight) realises nibbana, that panna is included in sankhara khandha (formations aggregate) and that all the khandhas cease completely at parinibbana, then there cannot be any experience or realisation of nibbana, regardless of whether it continues or not. > I read a sutta just last night, where the Buddha refuted an > annihilationist view, consisting of just the cessation of a living > being upon Parinnibbana. Not the cessation of self, but the cessation > of a living being (which must be defined as the khandas, I'd reckon), > and that is all there is to it. It seems the Buddha disagrees with > that one, though I don't know if that negates your view of things too. If this is a Pali canon sutta, may we have the reference or link? As I mentioned in an earlier post (10500) with regard to annihilation and eternalism beliefs: > both views are inherently wrapped up in an idea of ‘self’ > or identity in the ‘uninterrupted continuum’. While we cling to an idea of > self, there is bound to be one of these views. In other words, the understanding of the cessat?on of the khandhas at parinibbana, as we read about in the Teachings, has nothing to do with annihilation theories. Before I quoted some Sutta and commentary notes from B.Bodhi’s translation of the Kaccaanagotta Sutta (SN 11, Nidaanavagga, 15(5) . I’ll just repeat 2 paragraphs here which I think clearly clarify this point: > Com notes (Spk-p.t): > “The annihilationist view might arise in regard to the world of formations > thus: ‘On account of the annihilation and perishing of beings right where > they are, there is no persisting being or phenomenon.’ It also includes > the wrong view, having these formations as its object, which holds: ‘There > are no beings who are reborn.’ That view does not occur in him; for one > seeing with right understanding the production and origination of the > world of formations in dependence on such diverse conditions as kamma, > ignorance, craving, etc, that annihilationist view does not occur, since > one sees the uninterrupted production of formations.” > Com notes (Spk-p.t): > “The eternalist view mght arise in regard to the world of formations, > taking it to exist at all times, owing to the apprehension of identity in > the uninterrupted coninuum occurring in a cause-effect relationship. But > that view ‘does not occur in him’; because he sees the cessation of the > successively arisen phenomena and the arising of succesively new > phenomena, the eternalist view does not occur.” I also quoted the following notes from the Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries which also emphasise annihilation belief as being concerned with the ‘extermination of an existent being’. I’ll requpte these notes because I think they clearly show what the Buddha was saying (and also ‘my’ view of things’ which you seemed unclear about).: I wrote: I> In the Brahmajaala Sutta (and commentaries) we read in detail about all > the possible wrong views including these. 7 kinds of annihilation view are > mentioned in the sutta. I’ll just quote the first one: > ..... > (p.79 B.Bodhi trans.) > “85. ‘Herein, bhikkhus, some recluse or brahmin asserts the following > doctrine and view: ‘The self, good sir, has material form; it is composed > of the four primary elements and originates from father and mother. Since > this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the > body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely > annihilated.’ In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, > and extermination of an existent being.’” > ..... > The other 6 kinds of annihilation view all end with the same last sentence > about the belief of the ‘extermination of an existent being’. This idea of > an ‘existent being’ is the real crux of the view. > ..... > In the sub-commentary notes (p.182), we read: > “Since the destruction of the non-existent (asato) is impossible, the > words ‘(annihilation) of an existent being’ are given signifying > annihilation based on existence (atthibhaavanibandhano upacchedo).......” > ..... > A little later (p.183): > > “..For the assumption of a being arises when the compact of aggregates > occurring in the form of a coninuum is not dissected (into its > components). And since it is held that ‘the self exists so long as it is > not annihilated,’ the assumption of annihilationism is based on the > asumption of a being.’ “ Finally, i said: > In summary, I don’t find any support for the idea that the cessation of > all formations (i.e all phenomena including any experiencing of nibbana) > at parinibbana has anything to do with an annihilation view Anders, please let me know if you wish me to clarify further or if you have a sutta reference you understand differently. Sarah ====================================================== 11083 From: azita gill Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 8:45pm Subject: Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's --- , > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "fcckuan" > wrote: > > ). But I still > need some hints > from > > you guys on how the sanna (perception aggregate) > works as memory. > > Scriptural references would help, although I'm > guessing it's > probably > > later stuff like Abidhamma and commentaries, since > it would have > made > > an impression on me if I read anything in Samyutta > and Majjhima > > describing memory and perception. Surely someone > here can help me > > out. Show me some love. hello, my name's Azita and have been a dsg-er for along time, however new to cyber dsg. I have found something on memory. From a little book i found in my bookcase called Abhidhamma Studies, researches in Buddhist Psychology by Nyanaponika Thera. M Memory as we usually understand it is not mentioned as a separate component of a moment of consciousness(citta)becasuse it is not a single mental factor but a complex process. T The mental factor which is most important for the arising of memory is perception(sanna=sanjanana)being that kind of elementary cognition(janana)which proceeds by way of taking up, making and remembering i.e. identifying, marks. A Apart from that what, in common usage, is called "remembering", the reminiscent function of perception in general operates also (a) in the imperceptibly brief phases of a complete perceptual process, the sequence of which is based on the connecting function of "grasping the past phases" (b)in any consecutive train of thought where this "grasping of the past"is so habitual, and refers to an event so close to the present, that in normal parlance it is not called "memory", though it is not essentially different from it. S Sorry, Frank, I forgot to address this to you personally, before I launched into writing the above, as it was you who asked the question. I hope it is of some use to you. from Azita, in very hot Cairns, Australia. 11084 From: binh_anson Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 9:41pm Subject: Photo from Vietnam - The Ansons G'day, As "formally" (joking!) requested by Sarah, I have uploaded a photo taken in our last trip to Vietnam. It was taken at the main shrine (vihara) of Sieu-Ly temple, Vinh-Long province, about 100 km south- west of Saigon. The entire Anson's family were there: myself, Yupa (my wife), and the 2 daughters (Angela & Jennifer). The photo's title is: "Vietnam - Sieu-Ly temple". The name "Sieu-Ly" means "Abhidhamma". The temple is well-known in the Vietnamese Theravadin community for its abhidhammic studies. Its founder, the late Mahathera Tinh-Su, translated the entire 7 sets of the Abhidhamma Pitaka from Pali-Thai script to Vietnamese language. Metta, Binh 11085 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:28pm Subject: Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's Hi Frank, --- fcckuan wrote: > Hello! Anyone out there? By the end of the day I expect you’ll have been so showered with love that you'll be begging for a break.....;-) >I checked and indeed this message actually > did get posted. I did some research on my own questions, and made a > little progress (I'll share below). But I still need some hints from > you guys on how the sanna (perception aggregate) works as memory. > Scriptural references would help, although I'm guessing it's probably > later stuff like Abidhamma and commentaries, since it would have made > an impression on me if I read anything in Samyutta and Majjhima > describing memory and perception. Surely someone here can help me > out. Show me some love. OK, OK....just looking quickly at recent posts, I can see Herman and Azita are already setting a fine example. In addition to Azita’s useful notes (great to hear from you, Azita), I recommend you read the chapter on sanna (perception) in ‘Cetasikas’ at: http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas.html Also there have been some useful posts written (mostly by Num) under either sanna or perception (forget for now) at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Please also read Rob K’s post 2064 (which I briefly quoted from to Christine) discussing the connection between the proliferations and perversions discussed in the Mulapariyaya Sutta. In a post to Victor, I also discussed the Mulapariyaya Sutta and the unwise attention (ayoniso manaisakara) of the worldling. I’m looking at it again now. We read in the com notes (B.Bodhi trans p.40): “The function of perception alone is distinct, for perception is more evident. But this perception accords with the conceiving and works in conjunction with the latter; therefore he says: ‘He perceives through a perversion of perception.’ “ ********** Without sanna, there would be no proliferations, no thinking, no attachment or wrong view. Because of its importance, it is a khandha on its own. The following is quoted from my post to Victor and I also see that I brought in the very controversial dsg topic of ‘control’ at the end - another incentive to repeat it;-): ********** >Here is a useful translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi of this sutta with its commentary and subcommentaries, published by BPS under the title 'The Discourse on the Root of Existence'. ..... I think we need to understand, as others have commented before, that in this sutta we are looking at how the world is perceived and understood by the worldling, the learner, the arahat and finally by the Buddha. With regard to the worldlings, we read in the commentary notes (p34) that ‘they have not destroyed the multiple forms of personality view’. From the sutta it says: ‘..he perceves earth as earth; having perceived earth as earth, he conceives ( himself as ) earth; he conceives (himself) in earth; he conceives (himself apart) from earth; he conceives ‘earth as mine’; he delights in earth. What is the reason? Because it has not been fully understood by him, I declare.......water as water ....’’..he perceives through a perversion of perception, seizing upon the conventional expression (and thinking) “it is earth’ (lokavohaara”m gahetvaa sa~n~naavipallaasena sa~njaanaati). Or, without releasing such a segment of earth, he perceives it as a being (satta) or as belonging to a being. Why does he perceive it in this way? This should not be asked, for the worldling is like a madman. he seizes upon anything he can in whatever way he can......” ..... We may think that this just refers to those fighting over land or terrorists, but what about this moment? Do we take the computer for being some-thing? Is there any awareness that all that is seen at this moment is visible object with no thing or self in it? As soon as there is the perversion with the idea of ‘thing’ in it, there is the madness being referred to, as I understand. ..... A little later in the commentary (p.40) we read: ‘Objection: If the conventional expression is applied, what is the fault? Don’t ariyans also make use of the conventional expression, as when they say: “This, venerable sir, is the great earth,” etc? ‘Reply: It is not the mere employment of the expression that is intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through the conventional expression. Thus he says: “he perceives through a perversion of perception.” This is his meaning: He perceives it as beautiful, etc., through a perverted perception springing from unwise reflection. By this, weak conceiving through craving, conceit, and views is shown.’ ..... The commentary notes continue with all the many ways earth is perceived as self. the reason for this is ‘because it has not been fully understood by him..’ We read (p46) that ‘He who fully understands the earth understands it by the three types of full understanding: the full understanding of the known (~naataparin~n~na), the full understanding of scrutinization (tiira.napari~n~naa), and the full understanding of abandoning (pahaanapari~n~naa)............Or, alternatively, the defining of mentality-materiality (naamaruupa vavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehension of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity knowledge (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning.’ ..... The subcy adds (p47): ‘therein, the “full understanding of the known” is the wisdom of full understanding by which one fully understands, delimits (paricchhindati), the plane of insight (vipassanaabhuumi)....’ .......... Victor, one reason I’ve added some of these quotes is because I think they’re also relevant to other discussions too. As we discussed on the ultimate and conventional truth thread, it’s not so much a question of the words we use, but the understanding that lies behind them. When we say we touch earth or the computer, is there any understanding of only hardness which is experienced at that moment or do we have the idea of touching a thing? As understanding begins to grow, the language doesn’t change in conventional usage but what the arahat or Buddha understand by ‘earth’, ‘water’, ‘Gods’ or ‘Brahma’ is not what is understood by us in our madness. In the same way, we can say ‘form is not self’ as many times as we like, but it doesn’t mean there is necessarily any understanding of any rupa or form appearing at this moment. You wondered why I had got the idea (like Rob Ep, I think) that you were suggesting a self outside the khandhas. I think this was because, although you quote excellent lines about anatta from excellent suttas, the idea of controlling the various realities, suggests a deep-rooted clinging to self rather than an understanding of conditions that determines these same khandhas. If we say ‘Yes, one can control oneself’ (to quote from another post of yours) and know this is merely conventional usage, that’s fine. However, if we cling to an idea that this is possible in truth, it shows the perversity of view at that moment. ********** > I looked up subha, asubha, in reference to the 4th vipallasa > (perversion), and it refers not to mundane right views/wrong views, > but with the loathsomeness of the body (along the lines of > contemplation of impurity). In other words, Purity means we should > see this our body as loathsome. I'd like to hear what you guys think > about this, and I'll describe my opinion in more detail later maybe, > but in short, I don't think this 4th vipallasa belongs in the exalted > company of the other 3. Frank, I hope I re-quoted something useful for you. I’m pretty rushed for time until next week (read: I really hope someone more knowledgable comes to our rescue before then on all yr excellent points here and in your first post). Please keep up the good questions...some complex questions like yours need more consideration (by others) and patience (by you) than some of the simpler ones, I think. I always enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing your opinions too. Sarah p.s now it's your turn to show us some love and find a photo - a 'surfing w/dhamma' one or 'living on nuts in the forest w/nature' one would be fine;-) ====================================================== 11086 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:39pm Subject: RE: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's Dear Frank, > -----Original Message----- > From: fcckuan [mailto:fcckuan@y...] > > little progress (I'll share below). But I still > need some hints from > you guys on how the sanna (perception aggregate) > works as memory. There has been some discussions at length about memory in the past, although I don't think it comes to any sort of conclusion. What you want to know about memory may simply be beyond the details of the text to answer (I don't know that). You may want to check out the useful posts under the memory heading: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_ Posts and raise more specific questions (not guarantee you would get an answer!) > out. Show me some love. Now, now.... Don't know about you, but I am absolutely behind in catching up with the posts. So many meaty discussions, so many good posts. > > I looked up subha, asubha, in reference to the > 4th vipallasa > (perversion), and it refers not to mundane right > views/wrong views, > but with the loathsomeness of the body (along the > lines of > contemplation of impurity). In other words, > Purity means we should > see this our body as loathsome. I'd like to hear > what you guys think > about this, and I'll describe my opinion in more > detail later maybe, > but in short, I don't think this 4th vipallasa > belongs in the exalted > company of the other 3. > I think of subha as beautiful, and asubha as not-beautiful. For example, we (certainly I!) may see a beautiful woman as pretty. However, if we look carefully at the compositions (even conceptually), a body is full of things that are not so pretty (like hair, nails, phlegm, etc.) It doesn't mean that we should loath what we see, but we should see it as it is, closer to realities, instead of far-out conceptual whole (like I do!). If we see things as just visible objects, as realities with its own characteristics, as conditioned dhamma, as impermanence and dukkha, then there is even less to be conceived as "beautiful". Red color is probably less appealing than a red rose, no? Why? The true characteristics of visible is even less appealing than the red color. I am quite intrigued about Jon's questions (or challenges!) about this topics. Maybe if my I-wish-I-can-answer queue is shorter... kom 11087 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Photo from Vietnam - The Ansons G'Day Binh, --- binh_anson wrote: > > G'day, > > As "formally" (joking!) requested by Sarah, I have uploaded a photo > taken in our last trip to Vietnam. A 'Formal' thank you too.....very nice...pls tell your wife that she looks so young that I had to look carefully to not mistake her for another daughter;-) It was taken at the main shrine > (vihara) of Sieu-Ly temple, Vinh-Long province, about 100 km south- > west of Saigon. The entire Anson's family were there: myself, Yupa > (my wife), and the 2 daughters (Angela & Jennifer). > > The photo's title is: "Vietnam - Sieu-Ly temple". > > The name "Sieu-Ly" means "Abhidhamma". The temple is well-known in > the Vietnamese Theravadin community for its abhidhammic studies. Its > founder, the late Mahathera Tinh-Su, translated the entire 7 sets of > the Abhidhamma Pitaka from Pali-Thai script to Vietnamese language. Thankyou for this fascinating background info too. What an incredible task and excellent work to perform. Your connections and travels in Vietnam, Thailand and Australia are always interesting to hear about too. Hope we meet up one day (I'm sure we will) and look forward to any more 'lurking' posts from you, Binh). Sarah p.s a formal thankyou to Victor and anyone else too;-) ==================================================== 11088 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Dear Sarah, I really appreciate your interacting with my overwhelming tome. I would only try to clarify one point, which I guess is hard to express properly: that there is no such thing as direct perception of a rupa. The only way we experience hardness or visible object is through an act of perception. In what way is that act of perception ever pure? Even if it is completely devoid of any concept, it is still being transmitted by a perceptual organ [eye] which is picking it up and forming an image of it in order to bring it to the brain through the optical cortex. To what extent are these organs which transmit the image pure? And to what extent does the 'image' which does not exist three-dimensionally which the brain actually gets to 'see' corrrespond with the 'real rupa'. Now if you say there is no 'real rupa' because a rupa is not different than the act of perception that selects it, then you once again have a framed and interpreted object which is the product of the organs of sense and of the brain that interprets the image thus created, not an 'actual rupa'. When the optical cortex gets the image from the eyes, it is upside down, because of the mechanics of the inverted lenses that reflect off of the optical mechanism in the brain. The brain through an act of translation has to turn the image right side up. So this is all a manipulation/translation/correction of a selected aspect of 'reality' that is being produced by mental processes. How does this represent any sort of 'absolute object'? It seems to me that it merely represents the mind's version of object, and a selected aspect at that. There is no getting around the fact that we get all of our experiences through mental mechanics. They are as 'pure' as a camera or a tv set. Get a more expensive HDTV and the image thus created is totally different than the cheaper variety. Now, Jonathan said to me a while back, and helped me quite a bit, that a 'rupa' need not be perfect in some external sense, because one is only getting the perceptions that one is karmically and conditionally ordained to get anyway. The main thing is that one gets the experiences that are appropriate for oneself as an individual. In other words, even having the eyes you have, if you are color blind, comes from a karmic or conditional cause, and so if you get a 'rupa' that is in black and white, because you don't register colors, well, that is the perfect karmic rupa for you, and so it's still a 'paramatha dhamma' because it is *your* absolute object for your current state of evolution/causation. I can accept that as an explanation of what you get being appropriate for you, but on the more basic level of the human condition of being in a body with built in cameras [eyes], sensors [skin] etc., it does not seem that this explanation is satisfactory enough. It does not account for the fact that the human body and mind themselves are inherently subjective, since they only really record images, not the objects themselves. Images may be objects in their own right, and I could accept the idea that images are the real objects of human existence, which is what I think is the case until one has extra-sensory access to objects. But I cannot accept that we get the 'actual' object through our senses. Senses are a particular way of getting at an object, it is not an 'accurate' way. Smell only gives us a certain view of object, it doesn't really give us a 'real' view. It is limited and biased by its own equippage. Same with all the senses, which all form images according to their, not the object's, nature. Is my problem any clearer with all this explanation? I hope so, and that it may have some form of resolution, for I can't see it. This idea leaves me personally with the disposition to look at the mind and its processes [namas] rather than to think that I am actually seeing rupas. In looking at the way the mind processes information, one can get at the reality of being human, but not by positing external objects that are 'real' and whose descriptions we think are accurate. Best, Robert Ep. ========================== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > Rob Ep’s Marathon -Stage One > -------------------------------------------- > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > But the person who is sitting in > > the car > > 'imagining' possibilities and thinking they are actual will never ever > > get where > > they're going. Now we could really go nuts and say that Buddha is the > > guy in the > > tow truck, but I'll leave it for now....... > > Just as well as it’s all rather beyond me;-) I could never cope with car > mechanics but have been mercifully car-free for the last 20yrs;-) > > > Another excellently clear description. I guess my problem is that I > see > > even the > > rupa as being inherently conceptual. It seems to me that the 'paramatha > > dhammas' > > constitute the Abhidhamma's version of the 'absolute state of pure > > consciousness', > > a state without imperfection, because it perceives exactly what is there > > without > > undue conceptualization. But in the case of the paramatha dhammas, the > > 'pure > > rupa' is still an absolute experience of an object, and to me even a > > momentary > > aspect of an object can never be absolute. > > I’m getting lost here as well. There is no ‘pure’ rupa in the Tipitaka as > such. When we discuss paramattha dhammas and rupas, rupa is not any kind > of experience of anything. Rupas do not experience, they are experienced > (by namas). A rupa such as hardness or smell is very real to the touching > or smelling regardless of whether there is any awareness at that instant. > Of course, now when we discuss the hardness or smell, it’s a concept of > them that we’re discussing. This doesn’t mean they aren’t being > experienced or cognized just as they are, however. If there is awareness, > the awareness is aware of their ‘paramattha’ or ‘absolute’ or ‘true’ > nature. > > >Even though over many passes > > by sati > > and panna the true characteristics of the rupas become discerned, there > > is still > > no actual contact with the rupa from my standpoint. This 'coming to > > know' is a > > process of deduction and accumulation of separate experiences. > > It’s true there has to be correct intellectual consideration and > understanding initially, using deduction and so on. Still, regardless of > whether the understanding is conceptual or direct, there is still the > contact of rupas occurring all the time. Right now, there is seeing a rupa > (visible object), touching another (hardness), regardless of whether there > is any knowledge or not. The knowledge (if it arises) merely shows what is > experienced anyway. It isn’t resulting in different objects being seen or > touched, for example. Sati (awareness) accompanies each moment of > wholesome consciousness, but if it is sati of satipatthana, it is directly > aware of a reality, not just conceptually, however brief and unclear it > may seem. > > >This > > sort of > > 'coming to know' through repeated passes seems to me to be conceptual in > > nature, > > because it seems to me that consciousness is piecing together a picture > > with > > increasing knowledge. This does not seem to be direct and just in the > > moment, it > > is gradual, cumulative, and consciousness-derived. > > It has to be like this in the beginning, I think. > > I agree with the > > analysis that > > most of what we experience is conceptual and we don't realize it - we > > think it's > > real - I'm just not sure that the analysis of paramatha dhammas doesn't > > stop at > > the brink of realizing that it's *all* conceptual by its very nature. > > Instead > > there is a saving category that allows us to get to a 'reality' beyond > > our own > > limited perceptual and conceptual equipment, and I wonder if that is > > really the > > case. Rather than absolute realities, I would see the wise discernment > > of namas > > and rupas as being a 'true analysis of the way in which impressions are > > transmitted by consciousness', which is not absolute in itself, but > > provides a > > foundation for wisdom about the human condition. > > I agree that the ‘true analysis.....” provides a foundation...” there has > to be plenty of this true analysis too, over and over again. However, this > is not what is referred to as the ‘wise discernment of namas and rupas’, > because it is just analysis and not the direct understanding of these > paramattha dhammas. However, realizing as you do here, that the > understanding is only on a conceptual level as yet, is a very big step in > the right direction to my mind. If we think we already clearly understand > the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and so on or have attained > high levels of insight, it is a lot harder to begin to understand namas > and rupas and to see how little is really known. > > > This allows one to make the analysis of anatta, anicca and dukkha, but > > without > > positing absolute objects, which I think must be a form of reification > > of the > > momentary experience which is always delivered through a > > perceptual-conceptual > > apparatus, never 'in itself' in some 'actual' form, except the form of > > 'mind' or > > 'consciousness'. > > Hmm....We can talk about or analyse the 3 characteristics above, but I > think it’s meaningless unless we discuss what they are characteristics of: > i.e paramattha dhammas or namas and rupas. This may even be one of > Victor’s points. We can discuss the characteristics of seeing or visible > object, for example, but not of concepts such as walking or balloons. > Again, it’s true that if we ‘analyse’ seeing or visible object now, that > it is a concept and the ‘perceptual-conceptual apparatus’ is at work as > ‘we’ think. It may be with right understanding or with wrong understanding > and reification. The aim is not to stop thinking, which is conditioned > like all other realities, but again to understand its nature directly as > it occurs. > > Maybe that’s enough for Stage One...time for refreshment;-) I’ll come back > a little later to continue. Thanks for the chance. Please chip in anytime > as I have no idea when or if I'll finish the complete marathon. You'll > also notice I cheated a little at the beginning and took a short-cut;-) > > Sarah > ====================================================== > 11089 From: onco111 Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 3:16am Subject: glossing kusala Dear Sarah, Anders, Jon, Herman, etc., In his "Buddhist Dictionary," Nyanatiloka defines "kusala" as: "'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, (skilful). Connotations of the term, according to Com. (Asl), are: of good health, blameless, productive of favourable karma-result, skilful. It should be noted that Com. excludes the meaning 'skilful' when the term is applied to states of consciousness." Atthasalini indeed explicitly excludes the sense of 'skilful' when applied to dhammas: "...in the phrase 'moral states' [kusala dhamma], either 'wholesome,' or 'faultless,' or 'productive of happy results' is a suitable meaning." The sense of "skilful" is reserved for contexts such as "You are kusala at the different parts of a chariot," and "Graceful women who have been trained and are kusala in singing and dancing." Why on earth would Asl. make such a careful distinction and not apply 'skilful' to mental states? One obvious possibility is that 'skilful' could just as easily be applied to the abilities of accomplished murderers, butchers, misers, theives, mechanics, cooks, etc., which have nothing to do with the sense of 'kusala' of kusalacittani. Thus, the use of 'skilful' in reference to states of consciousness tends to blur the critical moral distinction between kusala and akusala. When applied to mental states, kusala is not "something well done" as opposed to the akusala "something poorly done," but this is precisely the sense given by skilful/unskilful. I'm going to stick with wholesome/unwholesome or faultless/faulty to help keep the moral distinction clear. After all, proper discernment of kusala vs. akusala is pivotal in the development of samma ditthi. Dan 11090 From: onco111 Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 3:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS Dear Sarah, You wrote a finished a wonderful post to Anders with: > > In summary, I don't find any support for the idea that the cessation of > > all formations (i.e all phenomena including any experiencing of nibbana) > > at parinibbana has anything to do with an annihilation view Clearly this is true, but if we cling to a notion of an enduring self, the "cessation of all formations" most certainly LOOKS like an annihilation view. According to ditthi the self is in the aggregates or contains the aggregates or IS the aggregates. With parinibbana, those aggregates cease, so ditthi cannot help but see an implicit annihilation in parinibbana: "Where did the self go?" But if 'self' is viewed strictly as a convenient fiction, then there is no anxiety about "cessation of all formations," and parinibbana simply cannot appear to be an annihilationist view because there is no self to be annihilated. As always, wonderful post, Sarah. I hope to check in again in a month or two. Dan 11091 From: rikpa21 Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" Hi Christine, > I wonder how can we ever be sure whether we have made any real > progress? Couldn't constant questioning and doubt as to what is > genuine lead to discouragement? Yes. Discouragement is one of the worst enemies of practice. > always doubting? Yes. And doubt (of the skeptical variety, vicikicca) is one of the five hindrances to effective medition and enlightenment. > always suspecting we are fooling ourselves? Yes. This is particularly nasty for those who tend to over- intellectualizing. Always analyzing this & that, missing the forest for the trees. This is one of the most dangerous traps of all to fall into regarding the Dharma--that it becomes a mere intellectual exercise, and not a vehicle leading to liberation. The Dharma as explained by the Buddha DOES work, and doesn't require years of textual study to master. Only basic instruction at first, and then the careful study of our own minds, with the constant emphasis on continued development, including study and meditative practice. The key point is that we need to PRACTICE the instructions on meditation taught by the Buddha in addition to the minimal study needed to set us on the right course (learning what is to be given up and what is to be taken up). And patience. Development takes time and effort. There are ups and down. Three steps forward, and two back. Again and again. Don't worry. Be happy! :) And seriously, I have found no equal to meditative practice involving exertion, will, effort--at least one hour per day of concerted mindfulness PRACTICE (as I say hypocritically at the moment!). It does work, Christine, it really, really does! To heck with being terorized by fears of "self view" and the like when there are far bigger fish to fry. Self-view's there until we realize the Dharma directly for the first time anyway, so we have to work with it--skillfully. The Buddha certainly did in his instructions to his disciples. Altbhough as an arahabnt, he did so without misapprehending it. The rest of us will have to content ourselevs with "I, me, mine" at some level, and deal with it as skillfully as possible, and not get worried over "ohmigosh, self view!" Surprise! That's the human condition! :) Just a comment: your obvious yoniso manasikara (wise attention to the appropriate objects, like anatta, etc.) bode VERY well for your progress on the path. You ask all the right questions, and I want to share with you how encouraging I find this. Speaking only for myself, I have found the best strategy is to stick with teachers who give clear, concise explanations on our points of doubt, follow their instructions with the utmost diligence, and above all, serve them. And others. I believe, no matter what, cultivating ANY kind of kusala is GOOD! Why worry about things like "near enemies" of kusala like a little lobha when we already have such coarse, vile enemies to deal with, for example? We have to begin where we are. And where we are is (for most of us) nowhere near having to worry about "near enemies" and all the other subtle stuff, but about things at a far more mundane level. Just to reiterate my understanding: the Dharma is utterly simple. Too simple to grasp. And yet so difficult at the same time, for this very reason. But never let anyone's explanations or actions discourage you on your path, never let any interpretation serve as a cause for doubt about your ability to master and overcome your defilements IN THIS LIFETIME. When the fruit it ripe, it will drop all by itself--no need for effort at this point! There is nothing you can do to stop it, except NOT putting into practice the Holy Dharma taught by Lord Buddha, combining basic study of points of doubt combined with daily meditation--for some, Satipatthana. For me, Master Kamalasila's "Bhavana Krama" on cultivating jhana and the union of samatha & vipassana. That fruit needs all the requisite conditions to grow and ripen to the point of dropping, however, so it is critical, like a good farmer, to understand all the conditions needed for it to grow and eventually ripen. Thsis is best summarized by the 37 Bodhipakkiya Dhammas, the 37 "Wings to Awakening." This summarizes all the key points of the Budha's teachings on the path to enlightenment: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/index.html May you realize the Noble Fruits of the path in this very lifetime! :) 11092 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] glossing kusala Dear Dan, my 2 cents, kusala - thoughts generating of non greed, non hatred and non delution akusala - thoughts generating of greed, hatred and delution ~meththa Ranil >From: "onco111" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] glossing kusala >Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:16:19 -0000 > >Dear Sarah, Anders, Jon, Herman, etc., > >In his "Buddhist Dictionary," Nyanatiloka defines "kusala" >as: "'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, >(skilful). Connotations of the term, according to Com. (Asl), are: of >good health, blameless, productive of favourable karma-result, >skilful. It should be noted that Com. excludes the meaning 'skilful' >when the term is applied to states of consciousness." > >Atthasalini indeed explicitly excludes the sense of 'skilful' when >applied to dhammas: "...in the phrase 'moral states' [kusala dhamma], >either 'wholesome,' or 'faultless,' or 'productive of happy results' >is a suitable meaning." The sense of "skilful" is reserved for >contexts such as "You are kusala at the different parts of a >chariot," and "Graceful women who have been trained and are kusala in >singing and dancing." > >Why on earth would Asl. make such a careful distinction and not >apply 'skilful' to mental states? One obvious possibility is >that 'skilful' could just as easily be applied to the abilities of >accomplished murderers, butchers, misers, theives, mechanics, cooks, >etc., which have nothing to do with the sense of 'kusala' of >kusalacittani. Thus, the use of 'skilful' in reference to states of >consciousness tends to blur the critical moral distinction between >kusala and akusala. When applied to mental states, kusala is >not "something well done" as opposed to the akusala "something poorly >done," but this is precisely the sense given by skilful/unskilful. >I'm going to stick with wholesome/unwholesome or faultless/faulty to >help keep the moral distinction clear. After all, proper discernment >of kusala vs. akusala is pivotal in the development of samma ditthi. > >Dan 11093 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] glossing kusala Dan, I'll add a quick 2 cents to Ranil's..... I have to laugh because for years I'd use wholesome and unwholesome (and other friends too) but a long list of objections can be raised to these terms too, so I've been tending more to skilful and unskilful. (Really it would be so much easier if the whole world just used kusala, akusala and other Pali terms like your son in kindergarten. I think these are really translation points and the use of skilful in translation in the Atthasalani may not even be consistent. Sometimes it's hard to know without the Pali terms. For example, Atth (PTS) p.83: "Moreover, from the absence of the faultiness, hate, and torments of the 'corruptions,' kusala has the sense of 'faultlessness.' Understanding is described as skilfulness. 'Good' has the sense of 'brought about by skilfulness.' " Hmmmm I think I'd make sure I add 'kusala' in brackets after using one of these terms. Hope this catches you to ponder before you run off... Sarah =================================================== --- onco111 wrote: > Dear Sarah, Anders, Jon, Herman, etc., > > In his "Buddhist Dictionary," Nyanatiloka defines "kusala" > as: "'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, > (skilful). Connotations of the term, according to Com. (Asl), are: of > good health, blameless, productive of favourable karma-result, > skilful. It should be noted that Com. excludes the meaning 'skilful' > when the term is applied to states of consciousness." > > Atthasalini indeed explicitly excludes the sense of 'skilful' when > applied to dhammas: "...in the phrase 'moral states' [kusala dhamma], > either 'wholesome,' or 'faultless,' or 'productive of happy results' > is a suitable meaning." The sense of "skilful" is reserved for > contexts such as "You are kusala at the different parts of a > chariot," and "Graceful women who have been trained and are kusala in > singing and dancing." > > Why on earth would Asl. make such a careful distinction and not > apply 'skilful' to mental states? One obvious possibility is > that 'skilful' could just as easily be applied to the abilities of > accomplished murderers, butchers, misers, theives, mechanics, cooks, > etc., which have nothing to do with the sense of 'kusala' of > kusalacittani. Thus, the use of 'skilful' in reference to states of > consciousness tends to blur the critical moral distinction between > kusala and akusala. When applied to mental states, kusala is > not "something well done" as opposed to the akusala "something poorly > done," but this is precisely the sense given by skilful/unskilful. > I'm going to stick with wholesome/unwholesome or faultless/faulty to > help keep the moral distinction clear. After all, proper discernment > of kusala vs. akusala is pivotal in the development of samma ditthi. > > Dan 11094 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS Dan, Thanks and very helpful additional comments (in my mind anyway). Can't you stay a little to help any posts that come in which don't share these sentiments?? Always good to know you're around and thanks again for the colourful pixs.....I'll mark a month or two down in my diary;-) Sarah --- onco111 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > You wrote a finished a wonderful post to Anders with: > > > In summary, I don't find any support for the idea that the > cessation of > > > all formations (i.e all phenomena including any experiencing of > nibbana) > > > at parinibbana has anything to do with an annihilation view > > Clearly this is true, but if we cling to a notion of an enduring > self, the "cessation of all formations" most certainly LOOKS like an > annihilation view. According to ditthi the self is in the aggregates > or contains the aggregates or IS the aggregates. With parinibbana, > those aggregates cease, so ditthi cannot help but see an implicit > annihilation in parinibbana: "Where did the self go?" But if 'self' > is viewed strictly as a convenient fiction, then there is no anxiety > about "cessation of all formations," and parinibbana simply cannot > appear to be an annihilationist view because there is no self to be > annihilated. > > As always, wonderful post, Sarah. > > I hope to check in again in a month or two. > > Dan 11095 From: wangchuk37 Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 5:48am Subject: Buddhist bibliography February update the February update to the Buddhist bibliography is now online at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/buddbib.html I have listed new Buddhist web sites at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/buddlinks.html if you see that a Buddhist web site is not listed please do not hesitate to let me know and i'll include it a.s.a.p. happy Lo-Sar ! Roger 11096 From: onco111 Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 6:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] glossing kusala Dear Ranil, Of course! but I would say "rooted in" rather than "generating of". Dan > Dear Dan, > > my 2 cents, > > kusala - thoughts generating of non greed, non hatred and non delution > akusala - thoughts generating of greed, hatred and delution > > ~meththa > Ranil > > >From: "onco111" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: [dsg] glossing kusala > >Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:16:19 -0000 > > > >Dear Sarah, Anders, Jon, Herman, etc., > > > >In his "Buddhist Dictionary," Nyanatiloka defines "kusala" > >as: "'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, > >(skilful). Connotations of the term, according to Com. (Asl), are: of > >good health, blameless, productive of favourable karma-result, > >skilful. It should be noted that Com. excludes the meaning 'skilful' > >when the term is applied to states of consciousness." > > > >Atthasalini indeed explicitly excludes the sense of 'skilful' when > >applied to dhammas: "...in the phrase 'moral states' [kusala dhamma], > >either 'wholesome,' or 'faultless,' or 'productive of happy results' > >is a suitable meaning." The sense of "skilful" is reserved for > >contexts such as "You are kusala at the different parts of a > >chariot," and "Graceful women who have been trained and are kusala in > >singing and dancing." > > > >Why on earth would Asl. make such a careful distinction and not > >apply 'skilful' to mental states? One obvious possibility is > >that 'skilful' could just as easily be applied to the abilities of > >accomplished murderers, butchers, misers, theives, mechanics, cooks, > >etc., which have nothing to do with the sense of 'kusala' of > >kusalacittani. Thus, the use of 'skilful' in reference to states of > >consciousness tends to blur the critical moral distinction between > >kusala and akusala. When applied to mental states, kusala is > >not "something well done" as opposed to the akusala "something poorly > >done," but this is precisely the sense given by skilful/unskilful. > >I'm going to stick with wholesome/unwholesome or faultless/faulty to > >help keep the moral distinction clear. After all, proper discernment > >of kusala vs. akusala is pivotal in the development of samma ditthi. > > > >Dan 11097 From: onco111 Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] glossing kusala Thanks for the extra two cents, Sarah. "Skilful" still seems to carry a lot of "skill" baggage with it and blurs the distinction between the real root of the issue, i.e. greed, hatred, delusion vs. non- greed, non-hatred, non-delusion. The former three can certainly be wielded quite skillfully, but they are not at all kusala. Dan 11098 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 8:26am Subject: another vote for skillful - Re: [dsg] glossing kusala --- onco111 wrote: > Thanks for the extra two cents, Sarah. "Skilful" > still seems to carry > a lot of "skill" baggage with it and blurs the > distinction between > the real root of the issue, i.e. greed, hatred, > delusion vs. non- > greed, non-hatred, non-delusion. The former three > can certainly be > wielded quite skillfully, but they are not at all > kusala. > > Dan Hi Dan, that's a good point. Choosing the appropriate word (skillful or wholesome for kusala) boils down to pick your poison. 1) wholesome has the baggage of morality, implied divine justice and completely arbitrary divine laws by arbitrary deity (laws that are often akusala!), sin, which takes the focus off of conditionality. 2) skillful as you skillfully point out, has it's own baggage. For example, Microsoft is skillful at heaps of money, but certainly not kusala or wholesome. So given these two choices, which sucks less? I would still vote for skillful. Skillful has an upgrade path. People can evolve and see that skillfully robbing a bank, skillfully killing people, skillfully running microsoft to blackmail billions of people, is skillful with respect to short term gains, and unclear goals. I believe it's easier for people to see the limitations and grow out of misconceptions of "skillfulnes" than it is to escape the huge baggage of fuzzy morality imposed by major organized religions. It's hard to escape the grasp of something like the code of morals offered by the church because: 1) it is 75% pretty useful or correct 2) people think, how can a rich thousand year old tradition offer a wrong view of morality? It's easier to evolve out of thinking that Microsoft is skillful. Or one would hope. Ultimately, skillful, kusala, wholesome, are just letters on a piece of paper, pointing to a concept. It's up to people to deepen their understanding of the concept, which is why right effort is one of my favorite limbs of the 8fold path. In the evolution of one's own cultivation, as long as we're continuously trying to : 1) prevent unskillful qualities from arising 2) elminate current unskillful qualities 3) arouse unarisen skillful qualities 4) maintain and nurture arisen skullful qualities Even if our initial understanding of "skillful" is incomplete or erroneous, as long as the attention and vigilance for right effort is there, eventually it will get ironed out. -fk 11099 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 8:34am Subject: Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's Thanks Herman. Even a coreless heap of aggregates with less clinging than average doesn't mind being showered with love :-) -fk --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Frank, > > I loves you, baby :-) I'm sorry, this is the best I > can do. I know > nothing at all about the topic at hand. I just want > you to know I do > read your posts, and I always enjoy your style of > writing. > > Alll the best > > > Herman > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "fcckuan" > wrote: > > Hello! Anyone out there? I checked and indeed this > message actually > > did get posted. I did some research on my own > questions, and made a > > little progress (I'll share below). But I still > need some hints > from > > you guys on how the sanna (perception aggregate) > works as memory. > > Scriptural references would help, although I'm > guessing it's > probably > > later stuff like Abidhamma and commentaries, since > it would have > made > > an impression on me if I read anything in Samyutta > and Majjhima > > describing memory and perception. Surely someone > here can help me > > out. Show me some love. > > > > I looked up subha, asubha, in reference to the 4th > vipallasa > > (perversion), and it refers not to mundane right > views/wrong views, > > but with the loathsomeness of the body (along the > lines of > > contemplation of impurity). In other words, Purity > means we should > > see this our body as loathsome. I'd like to hear > what you guys > think > > about this, and I'll describe my opinion in more > detail later > maybe, > > but in short, I don't think this 4th vipallasa > belongs in the > exalted > > company of the other 3. > > > > > > -fk > > 11100 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 8:44am Subject: Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's [Sarah]: p.s now it's your turn to show us some love and find a photo [fk]: I own no camera, I have no photos. Rupa, anicca. Sanna, anicca, so why bother? :-) Thanks for the tips on vipallasa. I will search the archives. 11101 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 8:59am Subject: RE: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's Hi Kom, thanks for the tips, and I'll return to the discussion after I spend a day or two researching perception. Quick comment: --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > I think of subha as beautiful, and asubha as > not-beautiful. [fk]: Even if we soften the understanding of 4th vipallasa (seeing impure as pure), I still don't see how it justifies this 4th vipallasa being in the exalted company of the other 3. Why are the first 3 exalted? They are the exact opposite of reality: 1) impermanence 2) dukkha 3) anatta The impurity/purity aspect is a more mundane aspect, whereas the first 3 have both mundane and supramundane levels. That 4th vipallasa just doesn't seem to belong. In one of the anguttaras, the buddha says: (my memory, my paraphrase) "Dudes, whether a buddha arises or not, and goes around educating you ignorant peoples, this natural law of reality is going to keep operating: All conditioned things are impermanent. ...this natural law of reality is going to keep operating: all conditioned things are dukkha. ...this natural law of reality is going to keep operating: all things are anatta. (end of sutta). Note the absence of asubha/subha. Just doesn't belong. Now, I happen to be one of the big proponents of the contemplation of impurities, and seeing the body as loathsome. I think it's a big mistake for modern westerners to neglect this aspect of practice because it doesn't accord with their more delicate sensibilities. However, I don't think that 4th vipallasa belongs in the company of the other 3. -fk 11102 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] memories from Sri Lanka op 30-01-2002 22:25 schreef michael newton op newtonmichael@h...: .I met you and Khun Sujin way back in 1976 in Sri Lanka. > I was a monk then(rev.Alokananda)I know Ven.Dhammadaro too.Sorry to hear > that he has passed away. Dear Michael, How nice to hear from you after all these years. I remember that we had a dana and there was some confusion about one foreign monk who thought he was not invited, and I wonder were you this monk? We felt so sorry and I think Sarah went back to fetch him. Now about Phra Dhammadaro, you know, on the website of Rob K.: (sorry it is not blue) there is : , talks by him that I edited. You can also use this link for the webside: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links It is very nice, you will like it. Yes, I often think of him, he was so inspiring. Also a real support to me in my writing. Recently when I was in India I remembered him very much, I spoke about him with Jonothan. I was in India several times when he was there too. I hope you will post often with reactions etc. Let me know how you like this article. Jack Tippayachan has a very good Dhamma group in the Bay area, and if you would like to contact them you could ask Kom who you will see often in this forum. Best wishes from Nina. 11103 From: zipdrive14850 Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 2:45pm Subject: another vote for skillful [Hmmm...] The distinction between kusala/akusala is a moral one and not so much a difference in skill level. Yeah, yeah, I know. Some people who talk about "moral" issues also spout a lot of nonsense about divine justice, arbitrary laws, and the like, and even get quite hostile and hateful toward other people who don't share their views. The eel-wriggler in the Brahmajala sutta even refuses to take a position on the moral distinction between kusala/akusala because he doesn't want to be a combative moralizer! I don't really blame him for that. Not seeing clearly the distinction between kusala/akusala, he assumed that those combative moralizers he encountered got that morality stuff right. If they really did, then it would indeed be good to steer clear of moral distinctions such as wholesome/unwholesome or to make the distinction between kusala/akusala one of skill rather than morals. It would be hard for anyone to argue that that nonsense beginning with divine justice and moving into combative moralizing is wholesome, but some of the spouters of the nonsense are really quite skillful indeed! Is "understanding" skillful? Of course it is! And so are dancing (well, not when I do it), lying, cheating, stealing, killing, etc. at times. "Skillful" doesn't seem like a very skillful gloss for "kusala." Dan > > Thanks for the extra two cents, Sarah. "Skilful" > > still seems to carry > > a lot of "skill" baggage with it and blurs the > > distinction between > > the real root of the issue, i.e. greed, hatred, > > delusion vs. non- > > greed, non-hatred, non-delusion. The former three > > can certainly be > > wielded quite skillfully, but they are not at all > > kusala. > > > > Dan > > Hi Dan, that's a good point. Choosing the appropriate > word (skillful or wholesome for kusala) boils down to > pick your poison. > > 1) wholesome has the baggage of morality, implied > divine justice and completely arbitrary divine laws by > arbitrary deity (laws that are often akusala!), sin, > which takes the focus off of conditionality. > 2) skillful as you skillfully point out, has it's own > baggage. For example, Microsoft is skillful at heaps > of money, but certainly not kusala or wholesome. > > So given these two choices, which sucks less? I would > still vote for skillful. Skillful has an upgrade path. > People can evolve and see that skillfully robbing a > bank, skillfully killing people, skillfully running > microsoft to blackmail billions of people, is skillful > with respect to short term gains, and unclear goals. > > I believe it's easier for people to see the > limitations and grow out of misconceptions of > "skillfulnes" than it is to escape the huge baggage of > fuzzy morality imposed by major organized religions. > It's hard to escape the grasp of something like the > code of morals offered by the church because: > 1) it is 75% pretty useful or correct > 2) people think, how can a rich thousand year old > tradition offer a wrong view of > morality? > It's easier to evolve out of thinking that Microsoft > is skillful. Or one would hope. > > Ultimately, skillful, kusala, wholesome, are just > letters on a piece of paper, pointing to a concept. > It's up to people to deepen their understanding of the > concept, which is why right effort is one of my > favorite limbs of the 8fold path. In the evolution of > one's own cultivation, as long as we're continuously > trying to : > 1) prevent unskillful qualities from arising > 2) elminate current unskillful qualities > 3) arouse unarisen skillful qualities > 4) maintain and nurture arisen skullful qualities > > Even if our initial understanding of "skillful" is > incomplete or erroneous, as long as the attention and > vigilance for right effort is there, eventually it > will get ironed out. > > -fk > > 11104 From: michael newton Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] memories from Sri Lanka Hello!Nina; No,that monk was not me that thought he was uninvited.It was so long ago,I almost draw a blank.It could have been this Rev.Santa(another American Monk)he was sort of on this complicated raw foods diet and wondered iif this was something as he was eating all raw foods cause of health problems,but he later changed to regular diet.Not sure about this,maybe I'll ask him,as he is in asenior center nearby.He's about 70 I think,nearley 10 years older than me.YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA, MICHAEL >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] memories from Sri Lanka >Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:01:20 +0100 > >op 30-01-2002 22:25 schreef michael newton op newtonmichael@h...: > >.I met you and Khun Sujin way back in 1976 in Sri Lanka. > > I was a monk then(rev.Alokananda)I know Ven.Dhammadaro too.Sorry to hear > > that he has passed away. > >Dear Michael, How nice to hear from you after all these years. I remember >that we had a dana and there was some confusion about one foreign monk who >thought he was not invited, and I wonder were you this monk? We felt so >sorry and I think Sarah went back to fetch him. Now about Phra Dhammadaro, >you know, on the website of Rob K.: (sorry it >is >not blue) there is : , talks by him that I edited. You can >also >use this link for the webside: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links >It is very nice, you will like it. Yes, I often think of him, he was so >inspiring. Also a real support to me in my writing. Recently when I was in >India I remembered him very much, I spoke about him with Jonothan. I was in >India several times when he was there too. >I hope you will post often with reactions etc. Let me know how you like >this >article. >Jack Tippayachan has a very good Dhamma group in the Bay area, and if you >would like to contact them you could ask Kom who you will see often in this >forum. >Best wishes from Nina. 11105 From: michael newton Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] glossing kusala Hello!Ranil; Judgeing by your name,means that you must be from Sri Lanka.I lived as a novice monk there in the70's.Sri Lanka is a special place to me, are you there now?Or elsewhere?I recently joined the dhamma study group so decided to reply to this.I was there when Khun Sujin and Nina van Gorhom were there in 76.YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL 11106 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 7:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > The conditions for the arising of such panna (at whatever level has > been > > developed to date) are both extremely subtle and extremely complex. > But > > they are there in the suttas to be read, pondered and realised. > ----------------------------- > Howard: > What are they? And what brings them forward? Luck? Accumulations? We > all have accumulations. Calling oneself a Buddhist doesn't create the > conditions, does it? It seems to me that one has to "walk the walk". > ------------------------------ I'm sure we're agreed on the point you make here, that actual development does not come by thinking or theorising about the teachings. But what does "walking the walk" involve as far as the teaching is concerned? The truly unique aspect of the Buddha's teaching is the insight (to use your preferred translation) into things as they really are. Insight is something that accrues or builds up only by developing insight(!). It is quite different from, say, acquiring knowledge, which can be done by following a programme of study. Almost by definition, insight cannot be acquired by practising a technique or carrying out a form of practice. There are suttas in which the Buddha talks about the *factors that must be developed* if the insight leading to enlightenment is to be gained. These are not to be confused with suttas that *describe the attributes (factors) of developed insight*. Among the latter I would include the 37 bodhi-pakkhiya dhamma (‘factors of enlightenment’), which are factors that are indeed developed (built up, increased) as insight itself develops, but which in my view should not be seen as *things to be practised*. They are factors *of* enlightenment, rather than the factors *for* enlightenment in the sense that my earlier post and yours (above) are talking about. I have pasted below the sutta 'Sariputta' from Samyutta Nikaya - SN 55, 5 Sotapatti-samyutta, Sariputta sutta. (This sutta is actually an exchange between the Buddha and Sariputta, but I have taken the liberty of reducing it to its simplest narrative form,) This sutta gives 4 factors (anga) that need to be developed if stream entry is to be gained. These factors are the sota-patti-anga – ‘factors for stream entry’, as follows -- 1/. Association with superior persons 2/. Hearing the true Dhamma 3/. Careful attention 4/. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma Elsewhere these same 4 factors are also given as things which, "when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining … , growth … and expansion of wisdom, … to greatness of wisdom" SN 55, 59-62] There is I'm sure a significance to the order in which the factors are given. Only through association with a superior person (one who understands the dhamma and is able to share their understanding with us) can we hear the true Dhamma (explained in the particular way we need to hear it on that particular occasion); only having heard the true Dhamma appropriately explained can it receive the careful consideration that gives rise to wise attention and so awareness and insight. Having given the factors for stream-entry, the sutta then explains what is meant by ‘the stream’ that is to be ‘entered’. That stream is "This Noble Eightfold Path …; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." I find interesting the relationship that the sutta brings out between the *factors for growth of insight leading to stream-entry* and the *Noble Eightfold Path as the 'stream' to be thus entered*. To my mind this clearly supports the view that the Noble Eightfold Path is descriptive of the moment of enlightenment rather than an explanation of how to get there, and that the expanded descriptions of the 8 path-factors so often read about should be understood in that context. So my brief answers to your specific questions above would be as follows– > What are they? J: They are the 4 factors starting with meeting the right person (all of which are as applicable to the person on the verge of enlightenment as they are to the beginner). > And what brings them forward? Luck? Accumulations? J: Meeting the right person and hearing the true dhamma in a given lifetime is a matter of vipaka (result of kamma). There isn’t much we can do about that for this lifetime(!), but if we appreciate that the study of, reflection on and ‘careful consideration’ of the dhamma at this moment gives us the best chance of practice that is truly ‘in accordance with’ the dhamma, then this will in turn bring those factors forward again in future lifetimes. > We all have accumulations. Calling oneself a Buddhist doesn't create the > conditions, does it? J: Absolutely. > It seems to me that one has to "walk the walk". J: This is how we naturally tend to see things. But is it something likely to be understood in a way that is truly ‘in accordance with’ the texts (except as a reminder that mere theorising is not the development of the path)? There is no point in starting the walk with wrong view -- I say this because of the frequently-met assertion that insight is developed by undertaking a formal practice even though there is inevitably an idea of self involved in doing so ‘at the initial stages’. A form of practice that is done with a wrong view of self at the initial stages, followed by the apparent experiencing of the *right results*, simply leads to a strengthening of the wrong view of self. Jon SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta), 5. ‘Sariputta’ "What is a factor for stream-entry? Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. “What is the stream? This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, fright mindfulness, right concentration. “What is a stream-enterer? One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan.” 11107 From: Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Hi, Jon - Thank you for a very useful post. Much appreciated! The part most illuminating to me is the following: "This sutta gives 4 factors (anga) that need to be developed if stream entry is to be gained. These factors are the sota-patti-anga – ‘factors for stream entry’, as follows -- 1/. Association with superior persons 2/. Hearing the true Dhamma 3/. Careful attention 4/. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma" With regard to these, I see us as having the opportunity for exercising some volition with regard to all four. With respect to what you ask, I would say that items 3 and 4 constitute what I called "walking the walk". One more comment: I think you make a good point in saying that this sutta supports your interpretation of the noble 8-fold path. (Your post is copied below without further comment.) With much metta, Howard In a message dated 2/1/02 10:46:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > > The conditions for the arising of such panna (at whatever level has > > been > > > developed to date) are both extremely subtle and extremely complex. > > But > > > they are there in the suttas to be read, pondered and realised. > > ----------------------------- > > Howard: > > What are they? And what brings them forward? Luck? Accumulations? We > > all have accumulations. Calling oneself a Buddhist doesn't create the > > conditions, does it? It seems to me that one has to "walk the walk". > > ------------------------------ > > I'm sure we're agreed on the point you make here, that actual development > does not come by thinking or theorising about the teachings. But what > does "walking the walk" involve as far as the teaching is concerned? > > The truly unique aspect of the Buddha's teaching is the insight (to use > your preferred translation) into things as they really are. Insight is > something that accrues or builds up only by developing insight(!). It is > quite different from, say, acquiring knowledge, which can be done by > following a programme of study. Almost by definition, insight cannot be > acquired by practising a technique or carrying out a form of practice. > > There are suttas in which the Buddha talks about the *factors that must be > developed* if the insight leading to enlightenment is to be gained. These > are not to be confused with suttas that *describe the attributes (factors) > of developed insight*. Among the latter I would include the 37 > bodhi-pakkhiya dhamma (‘factors of enlightenment’), which are factors that > are indeed developed (built up, increased) as insight itself develops, but > which in my view should not be seen as *things to be practised*. They are > factors *of* enlightenment, rather than the factors *for* enlightenment in > the sense that my earlier post and yours (above) are talking about. > > I have pasted below the sutta 'Sariputta' from Samyutta Nikaya - SN 55, 5 > Sotapatti-samyutta, Sariputta sutta. (This sutta is actually an exchange > between the Buddha and Sariputta, but I have taken the liberty of reducing > it to its simplest narrative form,) > > This sutta gives 4 factors (anga) that need to be developed if stream > entry is to be gained. These factors are the sota-patti-anga – ‘factors > for stream entry’, as follows -- > 1/. Association with superior persons > 2/. Hearing the true Dhamma > 3/. Careful attention > 4/. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma > > Elsewhere these same 4 factors are also given as things which, "when > developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining … , growth … and expansion > of wisdom, … to greatness of wisdom" SN 55, 59-62] > > There is I'm sure a significance to the order in which the factors are > given. Only through association with a superior person (one who > understands the dhamma and is able to share their understanding with us) > can we hear the true Dhamma (explained in the particular way we need to > hear it on that particular occasion); only having heard the true Dhamma > appropriately explained can it receive the careful consideration that > gives rise to wise attention and so awareness and insight. > > Having given the factors for stream-entry, the sutta then explains what is > meant by ‘the stream’ that is to be ‘entered’. That stream is "This > Noble > Eightfold Path …; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, > right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right > concentration." > > I find interesting the relationship that the sutta brings out between the > *factors for growth of insight leading to stream-entry* and the *Noble > Eightfold Path as the 'stream' to be thus entered*. To my mind this > clearly supports the view that the Noble Eightfold Path is descriptive of > the moment of enlightenment rather than an explanation of how to get > there, and that the expanded descriptions of the 8 path-factors so often > read about should be understood in that context. > > So my brief answers to your specific questions above would be as follows– > > > What are they? > J: They are the 4 factors starting with meeting the right person (all of > which are as applicable to the person on the verge of enlightenment as > they are to the beginner). > > > And what brings them forward? Luck? Accumulations? > J: Meeting the right person and hearing the true dhamma in a given > lifetime is a matter of vipaka (result of kamma). There isn’t much we can > do about that for this lifetime(!), but if we appreciate that the study > of, reflection on and ‘careful consideration’ of the dhamma at this moment > gives us the best chance of practice that is truly ‘in accordance with’ > the dhamma, then this will in turn bring those factors forward again in > future lifetimes. > > > We all have accumulations. Calling oneself a Buddhist doesn't create the > > conditions, does it? > J: Absolutely. > > > It seems to me that one has to "walk the walk". > J: This is how we naturally tend to see things. But is it something > likely to be understood in a way that is truly ‘in accordance with’ the > texts (except as a reminder that mere theorising is not the development of > the path)? There is no point in starting the walk with wrong view -- I > say this because of the frequently-met assertion that insight is developed > by undertaking a formal practice even though there is inevitably an idea > of self involved in doing so ‘at the initial stages’. A form of practice > that is done with a wrong view of self at the initial stages, followed by > the apparent experiencing of the *right results*, simply leads to a > strengthening of the wrong view of self. > > Jon > > SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta), 5. ‘Sariputta’ > > "What is a factor for stream-entry? > Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing > the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a > factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a > factor for stream-entry. > > “What is the stream? > This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right > intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, > fright mindfulness, right concentration. > > “What is a stream-enterer? > One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this > venerable one of such a name and clan.â€? > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11108 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Thanks for your efforts, Sarah. I think the main point I'm trying to communicate here is obviously not clear, at least in the way I'm putting it. Perhaps you could clarify what is meant by the 'actual' rupa. If that is not meant to denote an actual object in the 'real' world, but simply a present reality for perception, then the problem may not be there. What I have been trying to say is that a 'reality' may be true as a perceptual experience, but if one says 'hardness' or some other rupa is 'actual', it seems to imply that it exists in the 'real world' outside of perception. If nothing beyond the act of perception is spoken of, then I can see rupa being actual and accurate as a perceptual object, but not as an object that can be said to really exist. If that is any clearer, great. If not, I'll let it go for now. : ) Best, Robert Ep. ================ --- Sarah wrote: > Stage Two > ------------- > > Dear Rob Ep, > > You wrote: > > > In other words, all human experience in the world of > > objects > > outside of mind is inherently defiled, irredeemably and irrevocably > > defiled, > > because any experience that comes through the human body and mind, the > > individuated self which is identified with the body and senses, can > > never get a > > pure result that is somehow not the product of that equipment. > > As I mentioned in Stage One, we talk about cittas (consciousness) and > cetasikas (mental factors) being defiled, but not rupas or ‘objects > outside of mind’. Wrong view of an ‘individuated self which is..’ is also > of course an akusala cetasika (unwholesome or defiled mental factor) > which, as you suggest, will never lead to a ‘pure result’. > . > >But, to > > be able to > > see namas as what they are, and to be able to see rupas as the product > > of the > > namas that capture and portray them -- well, that would be seeing > > directly the > > exact product that the > > *mind* creates in a human being. > > Just a sec....I’d rather refer to rupas as the objects or physical > phenomena experienced (not products) of the namas. Of course, namas can > also be the object of other namas too. And then I’m a little lost in what > you say.... > > >And that would be coming in for a > > landing in the > > human reality. > > ? > > >But to see rupas as somehow independent outside of the > > human act > > of perception, sets up an ideal world beyond what our senses and minds > > are > > actually capable of discerning. > > I’m lost with the ‘ideal world’ too. If we talk about visible object, or > sound or hardness (all rupas) as objects of experience by seeing, hearing, > body consciousness or mind and their connected mental factors, I’m not > sure why these would be considered as ‘independent outside...’ or any > different from what is being experienced now, mostly with ignorance. > > >Any time we presume a real objective > > world beyond > > the mind's processes, we have lost the thread of reality, in my opinion. > > ? > > > That is > > why I put my 'absolute reality' in a realm that is not part of the human > > scene, > > something that can only happen by mind regarding the properties at the > > root of > > mind itself. > > Maybe, but when we read about paramattha dhammas, they refer to the very > real or actual phenomena which can be known and understood right now, very > much part of the ‘human scene’. > > >As long as mind is focussed on its objects as if they > > existed beyond > > the mind, mind is still dealing with an illusion. In that case, it is > > not an > > illusion of a real self, it is an illusion of a real 'other'. > > ? > > > Again, if we see 'hardness' as a nama, I think we're on the right >rack: > > I think we’re on the wrong track here;-) > > > discernment of the mental product we perceive as 'hardness'. If we look > > at it as > > 'actual hardness directly apprehended' - a rupa that is really there - > > we cloud > > the role of mind in creating this impression and posit a reality beyond > > the > > senses. I have a feeling that is a mistake which leads to the > > presumption of a > > whole realm of illusion, a world of real objects which we presume but > > can never > > really know directly. > > Rob, I’m stumbling here quite a bit..... The rupas are very apparent and > real and can be known directly at any moment. I don’t know whether we can > say they are beyond the senses or not. Just now, regardless of whether > there is any awareness, as soon as we open our eyes, seeing (nama) sees an > object which thinking may think about and conjure up all kinds of stories. > If we have the idea that these realities cannot be known or that it’s a > matter of thinking and thinking, perhaps they won’t be known. > > R:>And your next statement points to this problem: > > > S:>> Of course, regardless > > > of whether we kick the rock or not, there are rupas over there which > >> make > > > up what is called rock. > > > R:> Are there rupas 'over there'? How could we ever possibly know that, > > except by > > deduction and faith? I can't see that as a direct experience, except as > > a direct > > experience of mind's product: a nama. But rupas 'out there'? What > > happens to > > the mind when one takes away that presupposition. What do we really > > really > > experience as being 'out there' if we don't presume there is a world of > > real > > objects beyond our ability to apprehend? > > So we are not concerned and the Buddha’s path is not concerned with what > is out there. All that is of importance is what can be directly known and > understood by panna (wisdom) at this moment. We may make other inferences > about others’ experience or about the rupas which make up a rock, but the > reality to be known at these times is thinking. So we may even agree > here;-) > > > However, without the experiencing of hardness, > > > visible object and thinking, there is no experience of ‘rock’. > > > > And that may in fact be all there is of 'rock'. In common sense > > thinking, of > > course we presume that 'rock' is a real object. And we can bank on it > > behaving > > that way, since we are coordinated with that presumption of reality. > > But as > > Buddhists, we have to question where our reality really lives. Does it > > really > > live 'out there' somewhere, while we catch a glimpse of 'hardness' or > > 'softness', > > or are these impressions all we know for sure? > > > > I know it sounds solipsistic, but I want to try to be rigorous about > > what we > > really know and don't know. > > Good...I’m following a lot more easily here. In truth all that is ‘real’ > when we look at the rock, are the seeing, visible object, touching and > hardness (if touched) and lots of thinking with sanna (perception)and > other mental factors. > > As I’ve been stumbling and going in circles on this stage (lack of > training??), I think I’ll drop out here. If there are any particular > points or questions from the rest of your post you’d like me (or anyone > else) to comment on, perhaps you could repost them. Any Tipitaka support > other than the famous (now infamous) Luminous Sutta would be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > > Sarah > ====================================================== 11109 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important --- anders_honore wrote: > I am not saying to avoid it. Indeed, I will say that such a > perception is extremely skilful. But it is perception nonetheless, > and thus only 'partial emptiness'. Well, Anders, we're pretty close on this. But still have a familiar problem with eliminating samsara in order to have a pure experience of emptiness, nibbana, or other enlightened qualities. If you say that emptiness is 'full' or 'partial' depending on whether phenomena arise or not, you're turning it into a thing or quantity. I don't think this is just a semantic problem, I think it's a conceptual one, one of holding up an absolute concept of emptiness instead of just seeing that everything is empty. Emptiness not being a thing unto itself has not completeness or partial-ness. It is a quality understood by panna through clear discernment. I don't think emptiness means anything in the absence of phenomena. To me, rather than looking for some absolute condition in which emptiness can be 'pure', I see both emptiness and samsara as co-arising, and therefore neither separable nor the same, but two sides of the same coin. You have a pre-requisite that perception must be eliminated in order to have pure enlightened knowledge or experience. I think that's holding onto a set of pure or absolute objects that can be separated from samsara. Robert Ep. 11110 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Thank you Herman, for these clear and insightful comments. I agree that it is seeing that selects visible object, not the other way around. To say visible object impinges on the eye door makes it into a 'real object', the opposite of a momentary quality, such as hardness. One doesn't really think that 'hardness' exists all by itself. Hardness appears as 'hard substance' of some kind, even if it is not conceptually defined as chair or car. There is not a 'hard nothing', a 'hardness' floating in space without something that is hard. And is 'hard metal' the same as 'hard wood'? Are these both the rupa of hardness without any further qualifications in the moment that 'hardness' is perceived? It is said that a 'hard and cold piece of steel' is actually experienced as separate sequential qualities, first hard, then cold, then shiny, then smooth, etc. Is there then no hard/cold experience? I presume it would be said that this is an accumulation of a number of sequential cittas. Best, Robert Ep. ====== --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Sarah, Robert et al, > > Just when you thought you were going to take a break on this :-) > > > I believe some of the confusion that arises from the rupa / nama > division is caused by the way the process of cognition is described. > It is said that visible object impinges on the eye sense and seeing > nama arises to know the object. The problem with this statement is > that the cart is before the horse. The object does not become visible > object until after it has been seen. Before it is seen (nama) it is > not visible object, just object, and unknown at that, but there > nonetheless. The objects that are discerned through the five sense > doors impinge on all sense doors alike, and everything else within > reach as well. > > Some rupas impinge meaningfully on more than one sense base and cause > namas of more than one type. Sound, for example, can be heard but is > also palpable as body sense. This way a deaf man is capable of tuning > a musical instrument, based on the vibrations felt in the body. Sound > can be felt. Do we identify two rupas in this case or one? > > Taste and smell are also deeply intertwined. > > What is the difference between a visible object rupa and a visible > object arammana > > All the best > > > Herman 11111 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 11:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS --- anders_honore wrote: > I read a sutta just last night, where the Buddha refuted an > annihilationist view, consisting of just the cessation of a living > being upon Parinnibbana. Not the cessation of self, but the cessation > of a living being (which must be defined as the khandas, I'd reckon), > and that is all there is to it. It seems the Buddha disagrees with > that one, though I don't know if that negates your view of things too. Anders, Can you identify that sutta please? Perhaps quote it as well? Robert Ep. 11112 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 11:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Howard Thanks for your comments --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > Thank you for a very useful post. Much appreciated! The part most > > illuminating to me is the following: > > "This sutta gives 4 factors (anga) that need to be developed if stream > entry is to be gained. These factors are the sota-patti-anga – > ‘factors > for stream entry’, as follows -- > 1/. Association with superior persons > 2/. Hearing the true Dhamma > 3/. Careful attention > 4/. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma" > > With regard to these, I see us as having the opportunity for > exercising some volition with regard to all four. Yes, I have never meant to suggest there is not something we call 'volitional effort' (it does indeed play a big part in our lives). But the point we are trying to resolve is whether right effort is to be equated with this volitional effort. In this respect, I think the absence of any reference to effort among these factors (the real sine qua non of development) is significant. > With respect to what you > ask, I would say that items 3 and 4 constitute what I called "walking > the walk". Fair enough. These 2 items are of course heavily (and continuously) dependent on items 1 and 2 which, as I have tried to indicate, are not a matter of simply listening to/reading someone's ideas about the practice. > One more comment: I think you make a good point in saying that > this > sutta supports your interpretation of the noble 8-fold path. (Your post > is > copied below without further comment.) > > With much metta, > Howard Anumodana Jon 11113 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Rob Ep In this and your original post, aren't you addressing the issue from a point of view that implies the reification of the external object (the rock)? Doesn't any reference to an external object, as opposed to the rupa being experienced at the sense-door at the moment of contact with consciousness involve a reification? Just something to consider. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I really appreciate your interacting with my overwhelming tome. I would > only try > to clarify one point, which I guess is hard to express properly: that > there is no > such thing as direct perception of a rupa. The only way we experience > hardness or > visible object is through an act of perception. In what way is that act > of > perception ever pure? Even if it is completely devoid of any concept, > it is still > being transmitted by a perceptual organ [eye] which is picking it up and > forming > an image of it in order to bring it to the brain through the optical > cortex. To > what extent are these organs which transmit the image pure? And to what > extent > does the 'image' which does not exist three-dimensionally which the > brain actually > gets to 'see' corrrespond with the 'real rupa'. > > Now if you say there is no 'real rupa' because a rupa is not different > than the > act of perception that selects it, then you once again have a framed and > interpreted object which is the product of the organs of sense and of > the brain > that interprets the image thus created, not an 'actual rupa'. When the > optical > cortex gets the image from the eyes, it is upside down, because of the > mechanics > of the inverted lenses that reflect off of the optical mechanism in the > brain. > The brain through an act of translation has to turn the image right side > up. So > this is all a manipulation/translation/correction of a selected aspect > of > 'reality' that is being produced by mental processes. How does this > represent any > sort of 'absolute object'? It seems to me that it merely represents the > mind's > version of object, and a selected aspect at that. > > There is no getting around the fact that we get all of our experiences > through > mental mechanics. They are as 'pure' as a camera or a tv set. Get a > more > expensive HDTV and the image thus created is totally different than the > cheaper > variety. > > Now, Jonathan said to me a while back, and helped me quite a bit, that a > 'rupa' > need not be perfect in some external sense, because one is only getting > the > perceptions that one is karmically and conditionally ordained to get > anyway. The > main thing is that one gets the experiences that are appropriate for > oneself as an > individual. In other words, even having the eyes you have, if you are > color > blind, comes from a karmic or conditional cause, and so if you get a > 'rupa' that > is in black and white, because you don't register colors, well, that is > the > perfect karmic rupa for you, and so it's still a 'paramatha dhamma' > because it is > *your* absolute object for your current state of evolution/causation. > > I can accept that as an explanation of what you get being appropriate > for you, but > on the more basic level of the human condition of being in a body with > built in > cameras [eyes], sensors [skin] etc., it does not seem that this > explanation is > satisfactory enough. It does not account for the fact that the human > body and > mind themselves are inherently subjective, since they only really record > images, > not the objects themselves. Images may be objects in their own right, > and I could > accept the idea that images are the real objects of human existence, > which is what > I think is the case until one has extra-sensory access to objects. But > I cannot > accept that we get the 'actual' object through our senses. Senses are a > particular way of getting at an object, it is not an 'accurate' way. > Smell only > gives us a certain view of object, it doesn't really give us a 'real' > view. It is > limited and biased by its own equippage. Same with all the senses, > which all form > images according to their, not the object's, nature. > > Is my problem any clearer with all this explanation? I hope so, and > that it may > have some form of resolution, for I can't see it. This idea leaves me > personally > with the disposition to look at the mind and its processes [namas] > rather than to > think that I am actually seeing rupas. In looking at the way the mind > processes > information, one can get at the reality of being human, but not by > positing > external objects that are 'real' and whose descriptions we think are > accurate. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ========================== > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > > > > Rob Ep’s Marathon -Stage One > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > > But the person who is sitting in > > > the car > > > 'imagining' possibilities and thinking they are actual will never > ever > > > get where > > > they're going. Now we could really go nuts and say that Buddha is > the > > > guy in the > > > tow truck, but I'll leave it for now....... > > > > Just as well as it’s all rather beyond me;-) I could never cope with > car > > mechanics but have been mercifully car-free for the last 20yrs;-) > > > > > Another excellently clear description. I guess my problem is that > I > > see > > > even the > > > rupa as being inherently conceptual. It seems to me that the > 'paramatha > > > dhammas' > > > constitute the Abhidhamma's version of the 'absolute state of pure > > > consciousness', > > > a state without imperfection, because it perceives exactly what is > there > > > without > > > undue conceptualization. But in the case of the paramatha dhammas, > the > > > 'pure > > > rupa' is still an absolute experience of an object, and to me even a > > > momentary > > > aspect of an object can never be absolute. > > > > I’m getting lost here as well. There is no ‘pure’ rupa in the Tipitaka > as > > such. When we discuss paramattha dhammas and rupas, rupa is not any > kind > > of experience of anything. Rupas do not experience, they are > experienced > > (by namas). A rupa such as hardness or smell is very real to the > touching > > or smelling regardless of whether there is any awareness at that > instant. > > Of course, now when we discuss the hardness or smell, it’s a concept > of > > them that we’re discussing. This doesn’t mean they aren’t being > > experienced or cognized just as they are, however. If there is > awareness, > > the awareness is aware of their ‘paramattha’ or ‘absolute’ or ‘true’ > > nature. > > > > >Even though over many passes > > > by sati > > > and panna the true characteristics of the rupas become discerned, > there > > > is still > > > no actual contact with the rupa from my standpoint. This 'coming to > > > know' is a > > > process of deduction and accumulation of separate experiences. > > > > It’s true there has to be correct intellectual consideration and > > understanding initially, using deduction and so on. Still, regardless > of > > whether the understanding is conceptual or direct, there is still the > > contact of rupas occurring all the time. Right now, there is seeing a > rupa > > (visible object), touching another (hardness), regardless of whether > there > > is any knowledge or not. The knowledge (if it arises) merely shows > what is > > experienced anyway. It isn’t resulting in different objects being seen > or > > touched, for example. Sati (awareness) accompanies each moment of > > wholesome consciousness, but if it is sati of satipatthana, it is > directly > > aware of a reality, not just conceptually, however brief and unclear > it > > may seem. > > > > >This > > > sort of > > > 'coming to know' through repeated passes seems to me to be > conceptual in > > > nature, > > > because it seems to me that consciousness is piecing together a > picture > > > with > > > increasing knowledge. This does not seem to be direct and just in > the > > > moment, it > > > is gradual, cumulative, and consciousness-derived. > > > > It has to be like this in the beginning, I think. > > > > I agree with the > > > analysis that > > > most of what we experience is conceptual and we don't realize it - > we > > > think it's > > > real - I'm just not sure that the analysis of paramatha dhammas > doesn't > > > stop at > > > the brink of realizing that it's *all* conceptual by its very > nature. > > > Instead > > > there is a saving category that allows us to get to a 'reality' > beyond > > > our own > > > limited perceptual and conceptual equipment, and I wonder if that is > > > really the > > > case. Rather than absolute realities, I would see the wise > discernment > > > of namas > > > and rupas as being a 'true analysis of the way in which impressions > are > > > transmitted by consciousness', which is not absolute in itself, but > > > provides a > > > foundation for wisdom about the human condition. > > > > I agree that the ‘true analysis.....” provides a foundation...” there > has > > to be plenty of this true analysis too, over and over again. However, > this > > is not what is referred to as the ‘wise discernment of namas and > rupas’, > > because it is just analysis and not the direct understanding of these > > paramattha dhammas. However, realizing as you do here, that the > > understanding is only on a conceptual level as yet, is a very big step > in > > the right direction to my mind. If we think we already clearly > understand > > the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and so on or have > attained > > high levels of insight, it is a lot harder to begin to understand > namas > > and rupas and to see how little is really known. > > > > > This allows one to make the analysis of anatta, anicca and dukkha, > but > > > without > > > positing absolute objects, which I think must be a form of > reification > > > of the > > > momentary experience which is always delivered through a > > > perceptual-conceptual > > > apparatus, never 'in itself' in some 'actual' form, except the form > of > > > 'mind' or > > > 'consciousness'. > > > > Hmm....We can talk about or analyse the 3 characteristics above, but I > > think it’s meaningless unless we discuss what they are characteristics > of: > > i.e paramattha dhammas or namas and rupas. This may even be one of > > Victor’s points. We can discuss the characteristics of seeing or > visible > > object, for example, but not of concepts such as walking or balloons. > > Again, it’s true that if we ‘analyse’ seeing or visible object now, > that > > it is a concept and the ‘perceptual-conceptual apparatus’ is at work > as > > ‘we’ think. It may be with right understanding or with wrong > understanding > > and reification. The aim is not to stop thinking, which is conditioned > > like all other realities, but again to understand its nature directly > as > > it occurs. > > > > Maybe that’s enough for Stage One...time for refreshment;-) I’ll come > back > > a little later to continue. Thanks for the chance. Please chip in > anytime > > as I have no idea when or if I'll finish the complete marathon. You'll > > also notice I cheated a little at the beginning and took a > short-cut;-) > > > > Sarah > > ====================================================== > > > > 11114 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 2, 2002 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Winnie the Pooh (was Re: samma samadhi) Herman --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I hope I am not labouring the point here, but the following is my > brief description of the extent of a fictitious Winnie the Pooh's > ability to control his bowel movements. And certainly, choice is a > good word to use. Yes, choice is a good word to use (but then, choice was a good word for Hobson's situation, too). And I wouldn't argue with what you say below. The fact is, though, if Pooh had a real choice about it, he would choose not to at all. But he innately knows there's no use contemplating anything remotely along those lines, so he goes along happy with the degree of choice he sees himself as having. Another aspect worth considering is likes and dislikes. Some things we like (or dislike) we would willingly choose to not to like (or dislike) if that was at all possible. (In fact, life would be easier without either.) Yes, we do have a degree of choice in a sense. But if we put aside the conventional limitations for a moment (ie. what it is realistic to choose or not choose), that degree of choice would seem so limited as to be 'no choice'. Jon > Winnie the Pooh is able to: > > 1 Defer for a variable but limited time the moment of his evacuation > 2 Because of 1 above he is able to pick, to an extent, the location > where this event will take place, and which commentary he will take > with him to read. > 3 Because Winnie is able to control, to a certain extent, which foods > and liquids he ingests, he is able to control, to a certain extent, > the consistency and quantity of what comes out. > > Nonetheless, Pooh must poo and this is his samsaric suffering. > > I feel there is a bit of a parallel with the Dhamma here. We have > some control over what we occupy our minds with. And you can > guarantee that what we take in will come out again. > > And as anyone who has ever fasted for a prolonged period of time > will know, when you ingest nothing, after a while nothing comes out! > > I loved your link! > > All the best > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > > > You said - > > Herman: "I see no reason why people should feel as though they must > > reject on some a priori basis the very small amount of control they > > can and do exert in their life. > > After all Ken O went to the toilet , and didn't do it in his pants. > > The fact that Ken O choose to go to the toilet is not without > > consequences, and had he chosen to do it in his pants that would > have > > had it's own consequences as well." > > > > CJF: I take your point that there is a limited amount of control > > within daily life. I prefer to call it choice, but KenO didn't > > choose to 'go', he only had a choice of venue (thank goodness!) - > not > > of whether or not the action would proceed, so to speak.... > > [apologies to KenO - this is just the consequences of > posting 'that' > > post originally] > > > > Herman: "I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the > > state of bliss :-)" > > > > CJF: http://www.egberdina.com/herman.au is a good enough reference > > for me. :-) > > > > Cheers, > > Christine > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > > Dear Christine, > > > > > > I hope I am replying to the right post :-) I've had some > difficulty > > > getting my posts through recently, as well. > > > > > > I do not believe that the notion of control and cause and effect > > are > > > mutually exclusive at all. I guess they would be if either were > > used > > > in some absolute sense. Such usage tends to occur in religious > > > circles. I see no reason why people should feel as though they > must > > > reject on some a priori basis the very small amount of control > they > > > can and do exert in their life. > > > > > > After all Ken O went to the toilet , and didn't do it in his > pants. > > > The fact that Ken O choose to go to the toilet is not without > > > consequences, and had he chosen to do it in his pants that would > > have > > > had it's own consequences as well. > > > > > > To point to the inevitable demise of the body as proof absolute > > that > > > there is no control possible at all is a very extreme position. > On > > > the other hand, to say that all things happen because of > conditions > > > is to say precisely nothing at all. The same goes for the often > > used > > > references to accumulations. > > > > > > Life is like a Rorhschach blot, there is no causal nexus between > > what > > > goes on and how you respond to it. Nonetheless, things go on, and > > > being a spectator is just not possible. > > > > > > I do not have any links for any of the above, nor for the state > of > > > bliss :-) > > > > > > > > > All the best > > > > > > Herman 11115 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 2, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's Azita Good to hear from you. I trust you have managed to get your internet access problems sorted out. Must feel good to be pulling out the dhamma books again. We hope to hear from you more frequently. Jon PS Are you in touch with Richard Giles or Sundharo at all? Does either of them have an email address? Anyone else from Wat Phleng days? --- azita gill wrote: > --- , > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "fcckuan" > > wrote: > > > ). But I still > > need some hints > > from > > > you guys on how the sanna (perception aggregate) > > works as memory. > > > Scriptural references would help, although I'm > > guessing it's > > probably > > > later stuff like Abidhamma and commentaries, since > > it would have > > made > > > an impression on me if I read anything in Samyutta > > and Majjhima > > > describing memory and perception. Surely someone > > here can help me > > > out. Show me some love. > > hello, my name's Azita and have been a dsg-er for > along time, however new to cyber dsg. I have found > something on memory. From a little book i found in my > bookcase called Abhidhamma Studies, researches in > Buddhist Psychology by Nyanaponika Thera. > M Memory as we usually understand it is not > mentioned as a separate component of a moment of > consciousness(citta)becasuse it is not a single mental > factor but a complex process. > T The mental factor which is most important for > the arising of memory is > perception(sanna=sanjanana)being that kind of > elementary cognition(janana)which proceeds by way of > taking up, making and remembering i.e. identifying, > marks. A Apart > from that what, in common usage, is called > "remembering", the reminiscent function of perception > in general operates also (a) in the imperceptibly > brief phases of a complete perceptual process, the > sequence of which is based on the connecting function > of "grasping the past phases" (b)in any > consecutive train of thought where this "grasping of > the past"is so habitual, and refers to an event so > close to the present, that in normal parlance it is > not called "memory", though it is not essentially > different from it. S > Sorry, Frank, I forgot to address this to you > personally, before I launched into writing the above, > as it was you who asked the question. I hope it is > of some use to you. > from Azita, in very hot Cairns, Australia. 11116 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 2, 2002 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca?/Erik Hi Erik, and All, Thank you for your Post - direct, and unsettling, as always. I appreciate the points you have made.....there is much I will continue to think over. You touch on a number of subjects that have given difficulty, and that are part of the difference between 'how I was' and 'how I am now'. These are in the areas of meditation practice, study, teachers and time-frames. I know that on this List there are some who have formal periods of practice and consider this beneficial and even essential. I know that there are also some who don't think of practice in this way. I used to sit weekly with a group who followed the Mahasi tradition, I had a respected Dhamma teacher, I went to retreats, and faithfully practiced an hour a day, sometimes longer when I lost a sense of time passing. Within the daily practice, I experienced many periods of deep calm. Moderately addictive. Within the retreats, I found mainly intensified unrelieved suffering, and consciousness of universal suffering, and after the retreats I found restlessness for weeks. The teacher moved interstate after a year, and I continued with the group and daily practice for another six months before realising it was the Dhamma - not the meditation - that held me. Felt I wished to remain within the Theravadin tradition. Face to face teaching is difficult to find where I live. At least, so far, I have been unable to find a teacher. So - it is books, tapes and the Internet, and then there is a judgment call on quality and content. Not a certainty for beginners. Read and reflect on a book or sutta, have a question, and then enter the lottery of posting to some e-group and hope someone with correct knowledge replies - and no way to 'control' this. So, after trying eight or ten Lists, I found some were mainly for meditators, some were more Social Clubs or for 'buddhists-as-a-hobby', some were aggressive or competitive..... Which is fine for people seeking those things, but I wanted to learn and understand Dhamma. And that, for me, narrowed the focus to d-l and dsg. It was on dsg that I found people who studied Dhamma, the present moment, realities, and didn't feel it was compulsory to do, or not to do, formal meditation - but who valued and encouraged Dhamma study, reflection, and life as practice flowing from that. Perhaps it is Accumulations, who knows, but I am happy here, and get support, and feel there is and will continue to be spiritual benefit and growth for me. With regard to time-frames - the Mahasi tradition values highly the idea of enlightenment 'In this very Life' .... U Pandita has written a well-known book with this title which was one of my first buddhist books....personally I simply find that if the Buddha took "four uncalculably long periods plus one hundred thousand aeons" (one aeon is billions and billions of years) to become the Buddha" even those whose aspirations don't include becoming a Buddha, are going to take some considerable time. Unless, of course, one is already highly advanced. Thanks for the link to 'Wings to Awakening'. Probably be a little while before I can get to it....have just started Abhidhamma in Daily Life. I couldn't find much via Google on Kamalasila "Bhavana Krama"........ just one article 'Gradual enlightenment, sudden enlightenment and empiricism' by Ivan Strenski, Philosophy East and West Vol 30, no. 1 1980 January p.3-20. University Press of Hawaii. http://pears2.lib.ohio-state.edu/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ivan.htm Looks interesting, and short enough to read this weekend....... I appreciate your kind remarks, advice and support Erik, always value and continue to consider and reflect on your words..... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > > Hi Christine, > > > I wonder how can we ever be sure whether we have made any real > > progress? Couldn't constant questioning and doubt as to what is > > genuine lead to discouragement? > > Yes. Discouragement is one of the worst enemies of practice. > > > always doubting? > > Yes. And doubt (of the skeptical variety, vicikicca) is one of the > five hindrances to effective medition and enlightenment. > > > always suspecting we are fooling ourselves? > > Yes. This is particularly nasty for those who tend to over- > intellectualizing. Always analyzing this & that, missing the forest > for the trees. > > This is one of the most dangerous traps of all to fall into > regarding the Dharma--that it becomes a mere intellectual exercise, > and not a vehicle leading to liberation. > > The Dharma as explained by the Buddha DOES work, and doesn't require > years of textual study to master. Only basic instruction at first, > and then the careful study of our own minds, with the constant > emphasis on continued development, including study and meditative > practice. > > The key point is that we need to PRACTICE the instructions on > meditation taught by the Buddha in addition to the minimal study > needed to set us on the right course (learning what is to be given > up and what is to be taken up). And patience. Development takes time > and effort. There are ups and down. Three steps forward, and two > back. Again and again. Don't worry. Be happy! :) > > And seriously, I have found no equal to meditative practice > involving exertion, will, effort--at least one hour per day of > concerted mindfulness PRACTICE (as I say hypocritically at the > moment!). > > It does work, Christine, it really, really does! To heck > with being terorized by fears of "self view" and the like when there > are far bigger fish to fry. > > Self-view's there until we realize the Dharma directly for the first > time anyway, so we have to work with it--skillfully. The Buddha > certainly did in his instructions to his disciples. Altbhough as an > arahabnt, he did so without misapprehending it. The rest of us will > have to content ourselevs with "I, me, mine" at some level, and deal > with it as skillfully as possible, and not get worried > over "ohmigosh, self view!" Surprise! That's the human condition! :) > > Just a comment: your obvious yoniso manasikara (wise attention to > the appropriate objects, like anatta, etc.) bode VERY well for your > progress on the path. You ask all the right questions, and I want to > share with you how encouraging I find this. > > Speaking only for myself, I have found the best strategy is to stick > with teachers who give clear, concise explanations on our points of > doubt, follow their instructions with the utmost diligence, and > above all, serve them. And others. I believe, no matter what, > cultivating ANY kind of kusala is GOOD! Why worry about things > like "near enemies" of kusala like a little lobha when we already > have such coarse, vile enemies to deal with, for example? We have to > begin where we are. And where we are is (for most of us) nowhere > near having to worry about "near enemies" and all the other subtle > stuff, but about things at a far more mundane level. > > Just to reiterate my understanding: the Dharma is utterly simple. > Too simple to grasp. And yet so difficult at the same time, for this > very reason. > > But never let anyone's explanations or actions discourage you on > your path, never let any interpretation serve as a cause for doubt > about your ability to master and overcome your defilements IN THIS > LIFETIME. > > When the fruit it ripe, it will drop all by itself--no need for > effort at this point! There is nothing you can do to stop it, except > NOT putting into practice the Holy Dharma taught by Lord Buddha, > combining basic study of points of doubt combined with daily > meditation--for some, Satipatthana. For me, Master > Kamalasila's "Bhavana Krama" on cultivating jhana and the union of > samatha & vipassana. That fruit needs all the requisite conditions > to grow and ripen to the point of dropping, however, so it is > critical, like a good farmer, to understand all the conditions > needed for it to grow and eventually ripen. > > Thsis is best summarized by the 37 Bodhipakkiya Dhammas, the > 37 "Wings to Awakening." This summarizes all the key points of the > Budha's teachings on the path to enlightenment: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/index.html > > May you realize the Noble Fruits of the path in this very > lifetime! :) 11117 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 9:16am Subject: the church made me do it Something I read from a health food magazine on friday: Besides bringing back lots of gold after killing and exploiting lots of natives in America, Cortez also introduced Europe to the Indian's favorite drink, cocoa. The queen and Cortez's friends politely tried it out and pretended to enjoy it, but secretly they thought it tasted awful. If you've ever tried unsweetened chocolate then you know why. It's incredibly bitter. Someone came up with the idea of adding milk and sweetener to it one day, and it instantly became the hottest drink in Europe. The church saw everyone enjoying it so much, so they banned it, saying cocoa was the devil's drink, an aphrodisaic arousing the passions, etc. Immediately after reading this, I went to Trader Joes and bought a pound of chocolate. Over the past 2 days, I've consumed about 8 ounces, or half of the 1 pound bar, and so far I have not noticed an increase in lust or passion. What I did notice is that the normal erection that I have in morning right after I wake up MIGHT be stronger than usual, but lust and passion do not have to follow or accompany the arising of an erection. A great number of old men who aren't able to have erections have mental lust as strong as a teenager hitting puberty. Some of those old men are even high ranking members of some monotheistic traditions. The church didn't know what they were talking about back then, and they still don't know what they're talking about today. Monotheistic religions are doomed to failure because they never try to uproot the underlying cause of the root of suffering, but merely try to prevent or supress symptoms. Putting oneself in a sensory deprivation tank for example does not eliminate suffering, or even begin to help one understand the root of suffering. There's a line from the movie Space Balls, where Dark Helmet tells the hero: "Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb." This statement is incredibly profound, if you see it in a certain light. The way I interpret it is: the kilesas (defilments) will always triumph over the views of monotheistic traditions because they are rooted in misguided views or misunderstandings that don't conform to the natural laws of reality. Those views only bind them to more equisite forms of suffering. There's something about the Church telling me not to eat chocolate that makes me want to go into the woods, listen to heavy metal music and dance naked while eating chocolate. -fk 11118 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 2, 2002 10:10am Subject: ayatanas, to Num Dear Num, I am glad you asked your aunt about the different classifications in Dispeller and in the Vis. about the ayatanas, 8 cittas less in Dispeller, but I thought also: the 8 may be the lokuttara cittas, and it depends in what heading this is classified. And yes: of three planes (of citta), thus the lokuttara plane is not included in this heading. You reacted so quickly, did you phone your aunt? Do I know her? She is a good source of info . Now I want to ask more, to you or your aunt. Rob. K. does not want to let go of the ayatanas, he wants more about the Co to the Sabbasutta, K. IV, First Fifty, Ch 3, the All. I have the Thai Co. This Co speaks about all ayatanas, but also about pathesa sabbe, and I could not make this out. It says this is five objects, but the word pathesabbe I could not find. What I shall do: I also have the romanized Pali, I shall study the Pali also, but I do not have the atthakatha in Pali of this. Thank you, and with appreciation to you and to your aunt, Nina. 11119 From: azita gill Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 6:03pm Subject: Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Azita > > Good to hear from you. I trust you have managed to > get your internet > access problems sorted out. > > Must feel good to be pulling out the dhamma books > again. We hope to hear > from you more frequently. > > Jon > > PS Are you in touch with Richard Giles or Sundharo > at all? Does either > of them have an email address? Anyone else from Wat > Phleng days? > > hello Jon and others, > > > > upon inspecting my "bookcase" I 've discovered some wonderful dhamma literature which I've had for ages but-you know, conditions weren't right for me to pull it out and study-I'm really glad to have the opportunity to study again and have so appreciated this group. Sundara and I have regular contact. He is now in Oz and I have encouraged him to join and I'm sure he will. have lost contact with Richard altho. think I know where he is. Laurence Mills, used to be Khantipalo, lives in Cairns, runs a Buddhist centre which I've attended, however its very Tibetan in style and - well i don't go very often. I'm aware that the above info. probably won't interest other people, so more private "goss" I'll send directly to you, Jon. May all beings be happy, and may we all have lots of Sati. Cheers, Azita. > > > 11120 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Ratnasuriya) Date: Sat Feb 2, 2002 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Winnie the Pooh (was Re: samma samadhi) Dear All, Contributing after a long lapse, with what I can. Fictitious all right, but the idea of reading in the toilet, better not be propagated unless with a course of exercises to stimulate the rectal veins (Yoga) & facilitate blood circulation. Half a minute for the 'go' & another one & a half to clean-up would/should not allow more than a glance at toiletry ads on packaging etc.(meaning nothing brought from outside to read) Health problems, especially painful ones are deterrent at meditation, primarily & at all other activity, mental & physical. Therefore best avoided, when possible. A lot of roughage & a lot of water ( and those controls) help leave the seat in 2 minutes! Thank you all for the many concept analyses received by me, a born Buddhist. With Mettha, Sumane Rathnasuriya ----- Original Message ----- > > --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > > I hope ............. > > > > Winnie the Pooh is able to: > > > > 1 Defer for a variable but limited time the moment of his evacuation > > 2 Because of 1 above he is able to pick, to an extent, the location > > where this event will take place, and which commentary he will take > > with him to read. > > 3 Because Winnie is able to control, to a certain extent, which foods > > and liquids he ingests, he is able to control, to a certain extent, > > the consistency and quantity of what comes out. > > > > 11121 From: Lucy Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kukkucca ?=regret From: "Sarah" Thank for your comments Sarah ! (says Lucy coming back to >200 messages after a few days off-line) > > For sure, whenever there is > kukkucca, there is restlessness. When there is remorse, there is a 'state > of bondage'. Isn't this true? > Very true. This is a good way of distinguishing 'kukkucca' from hiri / ottappa (which do not involve those states of restlessness & bondage) > On the other > hand, we can say they are not hindrances to satipatthana (unlike to > samatha development), in that any object or state can be cognized or known > by sati awareness and understanding. > As I'm learning from this study of cetasikas. Funny how looking at a few in detail helps also to become aware of the others as they appear in 'real life' situations - funny too that they loose their strength the moment one spots them! > p.s hope to see yr pic in the album in due course too, tho' I understand > we ladies are a little more reticent in this regard;-) I must be VERY reticent because I haven't had a photograph taken in years! But as it's so nice to see other people's pics in the album I'll have to make the effort - though it might take some time to get it organised! Lucy 11122 From: Lucy Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 8:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kukkucca ?=regret Dear Nina Thank you for your comments and explanations. Having shunned Abhidhamma for a very long time, being introduced to it by way of the cetasikas is very encouraging. Instead of being something purely intellectual and technical, it becomes dynamic and practical. And thank you for your books (they're very clear) and for so generously making them available ! Lucy 11123 From: Lucy Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kukkucca ?=regret Hello Kenneth > I think there is a need to make a distinction between kukkucca and hiri > (remorse). We could regret we do this actions or whatever, but it is > remorse that assist us in development. Absolutely! This week I looked into hiri / ottappa [moral shame / fear of blame], the Guardians of the World, as the Buddha called them. They are the wholesome aspect of 'regret' and, as the texts say, the basis for the development of sila (morality). Thanks for the useful pointer. Lucy 11124 From: egberdina Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 6:45pm Subject: Testing This is a test only. Herman 11125 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 10:09pm Subject: yahoo glitch -serious test of patience for me Hi All, I'm a little overcome with joy and emotion right now as I look at the messages from Selamat, Lucy and others that have just come through to my in box after the yahoo glitch (which started after Christine's message on Saturday). I still can't access the yahoo webpage, but at least there are signs that progress is being made to fix whatever problem it was. It has not been easy to even report the problem because one is just send in a never ending circle ('the new system'). Anyway, hopefully it's all history now. Many thanks to all those with support and suggestions off-list. Before we go away on Chinese New Year hol at the weekend, I want to devote my free time to making copies of all the Useful Posts(no simple, quick way I know of) and with Kom's help, backing up everything we can onto another list (dsg2) we now have ready in case of any serious breakdown in future. If anyone has suggestions on any of this, pls let us know off-list. Also if anyone knows a contact person at yahoo for future reference, pls give us the details off-list too;-) Thanks for your patience and support and look f/w to reading any dhamma messages you send. pls make up for lost time;-) Sarah (& Jon) begin to smile again;-) ============================== 11126 From: Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 7:54pm Subject: delusion (moha) Greetings DSG, I hope someone is still out there. The message archives have been down all weekend. Two questions: Would it be correct to say delusion of self and concept of self are two different phenomena? If so, what are the distinguishing characteristics of delusion of self? I'm not talking about self delusion (telling oneself a lie), rather a "belief" in a self that doesn't involve concepts. Also, as a sub-question, what is belief? I assume that both concepts and delusions can be believed. thanks, Larry 11127 From: egberdina Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 6:45pm Subject: test test 11128 From: Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Testing Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/4/02 1:07:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@d... writes: > This is a test only. > > Herman =========================== You passed the test! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11129 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 2, 2002 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Highest Bliss --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I may end up needing to (take it on the road). The company I work for > is on the precipice , and leaning towards the abyss. The thing worth > mentioning about this is that I am not loosing my "peace". I'm happy to hear that. To me, that is a real tangible attainment. Robert Ep. ================== > Wishing you well, as always > > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- egberdina wrote: > > > > I have a close association with a number of > > > people who are described in medical terms as having Attention > Deficit > > > Hyperactivity Disorder. I believe they may be good candidates for > > > vipassana insight, because they show no preference at all to > anything > > > in their environment. I do not wish to emulate them at this time. > > > > Herman, > > You're very sharp lately. Ever think of taking this on the road? > > > > Robert > > > 11130 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > In this and your original post, aren't you addressing the issue from a > point of view that implies the reification of the external object (the > rock)? Doesn't any reference to an external object, as opposed to the > rupa being experienced at the sense-door at the moment of contact with > consciousness involve a reification? > > Just something to consider. > > Jon Jon, I totally agree. That's my problem. I don't understand how the rupa can be seen as the separate object of a nama, rather than a nama itself, without implicating a 'real object' being apprehended by perception in the sense door. Am I confused about what a rupa is? This keeps coming back to haunt me. If the rupa is a physical object, it implies a reification. If it is purely a sensory/mental object, why isn't it included as one of the namas? Robert Ep. ========================= 11131 From: egberdina Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 1:39am Subject: Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Dear Robert, This one has jumped the queue a bit, but it is only the second one I read since connectivity has been restored. I am with you 182% on this, you have expressed the dilemma crystal clearly. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > In this and your original post, aren't you addressing the issue from a > > point of view that implies the reification of the external object (the > > rock)? Doesn't any reference to an external object, as opposed to the > > rupa being experienced at the sense-door at the moment of contact with > > consciousness involve a reification? > > > > Just something to consider. > > > > Jon > > Jon, > I totally agree. That's my problem. I don't understand how the rupa can be seen > as the separate object of a nama, rather than a nama itself, without implicating a > 'real object' being apprehended by perception in the sense door. Am I confused > about what a rupa is? This keeps coming back to haunt me. If the rupa is a > physical object, it implies a reification. If it is purely a sensory/mental > object, why isn't it included as one of the namas? > > Robert Ep. > > ========================= > > 11132 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] yahoo glitch -serious test of patience for me Dear All, There are still a few glitches - I've noticed a few messages didn't come through to this account when I checked the website and several didn't get through to escribe. So I suggest those following escribe or individual mails, check the website too. Hopefully, it'll be back to normal very soon. I also notice the files are still not accessible, but everything else seems to be OK. Many thanks to those who've continued posting as normal. Keep it up! Sarah 11133 From: Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 9:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] ayatanas Dear Nina, > I am glad you asked your aunt about the different classifications > in Dispeller and in the Vis. about the ayatanas, 8 cittas less in > Dispeller, > but I thought also: the 8 may be the lokuttara cittas, and it depends in > what heading this is classified. And yes: of three planes (of citta), thus > the lokuttara plane is not included in this heading. You reacted so > quickly, > did you phone your aunt? Do I know her? Yes, I called her. She said that in atthakatha there are two major styles of writing, implicit and explicit manners. If the sutta is very clear, the writer sometimes wrote in implicit manner and if in the sutta said something implicitly, then the atthakatha then was written in a more explicit manner. Thanks to Kom and K.Amara, both pointed it out to me that I should learn from my aunt. I used to talk to her about twice a year and we never talked about dhamma !! I saw the tipitaka on a shelf in my grandfather reading room since I was a kid. I think I did not even ever touch it, seriously. I can say that I regret that I never even tried to read tipitaka. And I used to have an impression that the student of abhidhamma is a bookworm and does not live in real world!!. Well, I have learned that I better not to say, "I don't like it, because I have never tried it". Now at least, I have some idea of what is real and what is not. My impression is also changed, I feel that both suttanta and abhidhamma keep talking the same things, dhamma which is appearing here and now in daily life (e.g. ayatana). I guess you probably met my aunt, K.Krisana. She went to Sri Lanka and India with A.Sujin when I was younger, I kind of faintly recalled. She mentioned that she's helping someone translated your book into Thai, she is helping with looking up the reference in VisDM and Com. She is a good source of info . Now I > > want to ask more, to you or your aunt. Rob. K. does not want to let go of > the ayatanas, he wants more about the Co to the Sabbasutta, K. IV, First > Fifty, Ch 3, the All. I have the Thai Co. This Co speaks about all > ayatanas, > but also about pathesa sabbe, and I could not make this out. It says this > is > five objects, but the word pathesabbe I could not find. What I shall do: I > also have the romanized Pali, I shall study the Pali also, but I do not > have > the atthakatha in Pali of this Do you mean sabbepadesa? There is a Pali pali, atthakatha and tika online by VRI. The sabbasuttavannana is at : http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0304t/s0304t-frm.html I now talk to my aunt once a week, I will try to ask her next time I talk to her. I noted that in Vibhanga the last pair called manayatana and dhammayatana. Dhammayatana is including sannakhandha, vedanakhandha, sankarakhandha, anitassana-apatiga(invisible- uncontactable) rupa and asankata-dhatu. In Sabbasutta, the pair is mano and dhamma in Pali and in Thai translation is mano and dhammaramana. My question is pannatti is not asankata-dhatu but can be listed as dhammaramana. My understanding is every citta can be called manayatana, but can we call pannatti as external ayatana or dhammayatana in a manodvara-vitthi which has pannati as an aramana? I think dhammaramana has a broader meaning than dhammayatana. I was surprised that even all cetasika are called as external ayatana. Thanks for bringing up the sutta. Appreciate. Num 11134 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 6:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS Dear Dan and Sarah, The view that the kandhas reach cessation in parinibbana may not be a view of annihilation of a self that never existed, but it is still an annihilationist view from the point of view of sentience. If sentience is said to cease in parinibbana, then the one property that is not a convenient fiction but actually takes place is said to be annihilated. There must be a distinction between awakening and cessation. While certain things cease in parinibbana, does it make sense for the awakening to cease as well? In that view, the awake state of nibbana also ceases upon death, and that makes nibbana dependent on physical existence, a strange contradiction in terms. Best, Robert Ep. ======================== --- onco111 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > You wrote a finished a wonderful post to Anders with: > > > In summary, I don't find any support for the idea that the > cessation of > > > all formations (i.e all phenomena including any experiencing of > nibbana) > > > at parinibbana has anything to do with an annihilation view > > Clearly this is true, but if we cling to a notion of an enduring > self, the "cessation of all formations" most certainly LOOKS like an > annihilation view. According to ditthi the self is in the aggregates > or contains the aggregates or IS the aggregates. With parinibbana, > those aggregates cease, so ditthi cannot help but see an implicit > annihilation in parinibbana: "Where did the self go?" But if 'self' > is viewed strictly as a convenient fiction, then there is no anxiety > about "cessation of all formations," and parinibbana simply cannot > appear to be an annihilationist view because there is no self to be > annihilated. > > As always, wonderful post, Sarah. > > I hope to check in again in a month or two. > > Dan 11135 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca?/Erik Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Hi Erik, and All, > > Thank you for your Post - direct, and unsettling, as always. I have an idea that Erik will take this as a compliment;-) I appreciated the rest of your post and found it very sincere and interesting. You give some good reminders on time frames too, though I can see why the 'all in this lifetime' approach is more popular;-) I hope others add further comments and thank you for sharing. Sarah > appreciate the points you have made.....there is much I will > continue to think over. You touch on a number of subjects that have > given difficulty, and that are part of the difference between 'how I > was' and 'how I am now'. These are in the areas of meditation > practice, study, teachers and time-frames. > I know that on this List there are some who have formal periods of > practice and consider this beneficial and even essential. I know > that there are also some who don't think of practice in this way. I > used to sit weekly with a group who followed the Mahasi tradition, I > had a respected Dhamma teacher, I went to retreats, and faithfully > practiced an hour a day, sometimes longer when I lost a sense of time > passing. Within the daily practice, I experienced many periods of > deep calm. Moderately addictive. Within the retreats, I found mainly > intensified unrelieved suffering, and consciousness of universal > suffering, and after the retreats I found restlessness for weeks. > The teacher moved interstate after a year, and I continued with the > group and daily practice for another six months before realising it > was the Dhamma - not the meditation - that held me. > Felt I wished to remain within the Theravadin tradition. Face to > face teaching is difficult to find where I live. At least, so far, > I have been unable to find a teacher. So - it is books, tapes and > the Internet, and then there is a judgment call on quality and > content. Not a certainty for beginners. Read and reflect on a book > or sutta, have a question, and then enter the lottery of posting to > some e-group and hope someone with correct knowledge replies - and no > way to 'control' this. So, after trying eight or ten Lists, I found > some were mainly for meditators, some were more Social Clubs or > for 'buddhists-as-a-hobby', some were aggressive or competitive..... > Which is fine for people seeking those things, but I wanted to learn > and understand Dhamma. And that, for me, narrowed the focus to d-l > and dsg. It was on dsg that I found people who studied Dhamma, the > present moment, realities, and didn't feel it was compulsory to do, > or not to do, formal meditation - but who valued and encouraged > Dhamma study, reflection, and life as practice flowing from that. > Perhaps it is Accumulations, who knows, but I am happy here, and get > support, and feel there is and will continue to be spiritual benefit > and growth for me. > With regard to time-frames - the Mahasi tradition values highly the > idea of enlightenment 'In this very Life' .... U Pandita has written > a well-known book with this title which was one of my first buddhist > books....personally I simply find that if the Buddha took "four > uncalculably long periods plus one hundred thousand aeons" (one aeon > is billions and billions of years) to become the Buddha" even those > whose aspirations don't include becoming a Buddha, are going to take > some considerable time. Unless, of course, one is already highly > advanced. > Thanks for the link to 'Wings to Awakening'. Probably be a little > while before I can get to it....have just started Abhidhamma in Daily > Life. > I couldn't find much via Google on Kamalasila "Bhavana Krama"........ > just one article 'Gradual enlightenment, sudden enlightenment and > empiricism' by Ivan Strenski, Philosophy East and West Vol 30, no. 1 > 1980 January p.3-20. University Press of Hawaii. > http://pears2.lib.ohio-state.edu/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ivan.htm > Looks interesting, and short enough to read this weekend....... > > I appreciate your kind remarks, advice and support Erik, always value > and continue to consider and reflect on your words..... > > metta, > Christine 11136 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 8:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kukkucca ?=regret Dear Lucy, --- Lucy wrote: > > Thank for your comments Sarah ! > (says Lucy coming back to >200 messages after a few days off-line) Well, you may have been quite glad for the weekend glitch in posts to give you a chance to catch up;-) > > For sure, whenever there is > > kukkucca, there is restlessness. When there is remorse, there is a > 'state > > of bondage'. Isn't this true? > > > > Very true. This is a good way of distinguishing 'kukkucca' from hiri / > ottappa (which do not involve those states of restlessness & bondage) Exactly so. > As I'm learning from this study of cetasikas. Funny how looking at a few > in > detail helps also to become aware of the others as they appear in 'real > life' situations - funny too that they loose their strength the moment > one > spots them! Yes and I think this is the test; i.e to be aware of them naturally as they arise in daily life without any special effort or watching.....for me, there were many, many moments with kukucca (regret) and useless proliferations during the 'yahoo glitch' and I was so glad we'd all been reminding each other about these so recently. It doesn't mean that with the reminders that they're not going to arise, but a little awareness and less kidding oneself they are justifiable, excusable or even at times worthy, can help a lot;-) > > p.s hope to see yr pic in the album in due course too, tho' I > understand > > we ladies are a little more reticent in this regard;-) > > I must be VERY reticent because I haven't had a photograph taken in > years! > But as it's so nice to see other people's pics in the album I'll have to > make the effort - though it might take some time to get it organised! you could always join us for a weekend in Bangkok..that way you wouldn't be able to avoid Sukin's camera lens and your place in the album;-) Otherwise, take your time and we look f/w to it. As I just told Kom , we have our ways and means of helping those with good excuses. I was so glad to read your posts, Lucy. Great timing;-) Sarah =========================================== 11137 From: Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 8:51pm Subject: Re: delusion (moha) Thought I would throw some ideas at this question since I'm not sure what I'm asking anyway. -------------- >Two questions: Would it be correct to say delusion of self and concept of self are two different phenomena? If so, what are the distinguishing characteristics of delusion of self? I'm not talking about self delusion (telling oneself a lie), rather a "belief" in a self that doesn't involve concepts. ________________ Delusion is basically wrong understanding. So does understanding (panna) understand only concept, or does it also understand reality? According to Nyanatiloka"s Buddhist Dictionary there are 3 kinds of knowledge. Knowledge based on thinking, learning, and mental development. Thinking and learning seem to be purely conceptual. Mental development (bhavana-maya-panna) "is that knowledge which one has acquired through mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full concentration" (appana) (Vis. XIV). So reality is understood, and apparently misunderstood, even though it is seemingly meaningless. There are two kinds of concepts, meaning concepts and naming concepts. Meaning concepts "become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things" p.326 "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma". Does this mean reality is meaningless? Probably not. Well this didn't lead where I thought it would lead. I was trying to get to two truths, conceptual and real. I had the idea that conceptual truth was based on a credible representation of reality (credibility being based on conceptual conventions) and real truth being based somehow on values (kusala/akusala) which are realities, not sure what that means. Still pretty mixed up, need more study, Larry 11138 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 8:53pm Subject: Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's Hi Frank, --- frank kuan wrote: > [Sarah]: > p.s now it's your turn to show us some love and find a > photo > > [fk]: > I own no camera, I have no photos. Rupa, anicca. > Sanna, anicca, so why bother? :-) Couldn't we say this about the computer and many other objects? Anyway, no need to add to your possessions (I know you like the simple life);-) all you have to do is ask a friend who is less enlightened to help (preferably on a day you've put on those rupa anicca clothes;-) > Thanks for the tips on vipallasa. I will search the > archives. Hope to hear back after your weekend's study. Sarah =================================== 11139 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Hi Herman, Rumour has it that you were missing us all at the weekend too;-) --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Sarah, Robert et al, > > Just when you thought you were going to take a break on this :-) > > > I believe some of the confusion that arises from the rupa / nama > division is caused by the way the process of cognition is described. > It is said that visible object impinges on the eye sense and seeing > nama arises to know the object. The problem with this statement is > that the cart is before the horse. The object does not become visible > object until after it has been seen. I understand your point. I would say it is visible object WHEN it is seen. In other words, if we close our eyes or fall into asleep now, no visible object appears and therefore there is no seeing. So visible object is one essential condition for seeing. When the visible object appears, it conditions the seeing and vice versa. The eye base is another essential condition and the mental factors arising with seeing also condition it and vice versa again. If there hadn't been a moment of consciousness immediately prior to the seeing, there also would be no seeing. Without previous kamma, there'd be no seeing. So the conditions for this moment of seeing are very complex and also for the visible object that is seen at this moment. >Before it is seen (nama) it is > not visible object, just object, and unknown at that, but there > nonetheless. I'm not at all sure we can say this. The particular visible object which is seen now (quite different from what was seen an instant ago) is not the same rupa that has ever been experienced before and we cannot say it is there if there is no seeing of it now. >The objects that are discerned through the five sense > doors impinge on all sense doors alike, and everything else within > reach as well. It may seem that we see 'vibration' or smell 'softness', but in reality, seeing only sees visible object and so on. The sense door processes folow each other very rapidly and the sanna (perception,memory) marks the objects to condition different ways of thinking and processing of the information. For most blind or deaf people, I believe there are still visible objects and sounds being experienced, even though they are so 'blurry' and the indiviudal has to depend on many other experiences to manage. However 'blurry', awareness can be mindful of the rupa if there are the right conditins. > > Some rupas impinge meaningfully on more than one sense base and cause > namas of more than one type. Sound, for example, can be heard but is > also palpable as body sense. This way a deaf man is capable of tuning > a musical instrument, based on the vibrations felt in the body. Sound > can be felt. Do we identify two rupas in this case or one? I think I jumped ahead. It may seem that sound can be felt, but isn't it the combination of the 'blurry' sound and experience of vibrations through the bodysense? Good areas to consider, I think. So many different namas and rupas arising all the time. It will depend on many factors as to which will be the objects of awareness. > Taste and smell are also deeply intertwined. It's very true and it's this intertwining of different experiences and different rupas without awareness that gives rise to the ideas of wholes and selves. > What is the difference between a visible object rupa and a visible > object arammana They sound the same to me. Visible object is always a rupa and always arammana. > > All the best Excellent points and questions. Sorry for the delay....Pls let me know if it isn't clear or sounds too much like a regurgitated commentary;-) I think these points about rupa and the distinction between it and nama are at the real heart of the Teachings. I hope Jon also helps clarify your other points where you and Rob Ep are 162%(?) in agreement;-) Sarah ========= 11140 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Dear Rob Ep, I'm a little behind with replies to you too, but will catch up soon;-) --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I really appreciate your interacting with my overwhelming tome. I would > only try > to clarify one point, which I guess is hard to express properly: that > there is no > such thing as direct perception of a rupa. The only way we experience > hardness or > visible object is through an act of perception. In what way is that act > of > perception ever pure? Even if it is completely devoid of any concept, > it is still > being transmitted by a perceptual organ [eye] which is picking it up and > forming > an image of it in order to bring it to the brain through the optical > cortex. When we start thinking of brain and optical cortex and so on, these are concepts. When there is awareness which is aware of hardness or visible object there is no idea of concept at all. We can think and think about how this may logically be possible, but in reality (that word again), at a moment of being aware of one of these rupas, just its nature or characteristic appears without any thinking. So it's quite different from scientific theory or psychological processes. Whether seeing or awareness can be called 'pure' is debatable. From a dhamma perspective, sanna is the mental factor which perceives or marks the object at every moment. On account of sanna, there is thinking and clinging to these objects and so on. So sanna or perception plays a crucial role. It also has a 'nature' whch can be known, but it is quite different from scientific or psychological perception. >To > what extent are these organs which transmit the image pure? And to what > extent > does the 'image' which does not exist three-dimensionally which the > brain actually > gets to 'see' corrrespond with the 'real rupa'. I think these are conceptual or scientific questions. > Now if you say there is no 'real rupa' because a rupa is not different > than the > act of perception that selects it, Sorry but this doesn't sound like anything I'd say...;-) > then you once again have a framed and > interpreted object which is the product of the organs of sense and of > the brain > that interprets the image thus created, not an 'actual rupa'. When the > optical > cortex gets the image from the eyes, it is upside down, because of the > mechanics > of the inverted lenses that reflect off of the optical mechanism in the > brain. > The brain through an act of translation has to turn the image right side > up. So > this is all a manipulation/translation/correction of a selected aspect > of > 'reality' that is being produced by mental processes. How does this > represent any > sort of 'absolute object'? It seems to me that it merely represents the > mind's > version of object, and a selected aspect at that. These are theories or conceptual truths about processes which are not based on the experience of paramattha or absolute dhammas, as I understand. > There is no getting around the fact that we get all of our experiences > through > mental mechanics. They are as 'pure' as a camera or a tv set. Get a > more > expensive HDTV and the image thus created is totally different than the > cheaper > variety. > > Now, Jonathan said to me a while back, and helped me quite a bit, that a > 'rupa' > need not be perfect in some external sense, because one is only getting > the > perceptions that one is karmically and conditionally ordained to get > anyway. As I just suggested to Herman, when we talk about the development of awareness, it makes no difference how good our eyesight or hearing is, for example. Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether we're smart with good memories in a conventional sense or are energetic or healthy. Namas and rupas appearing are just as 'real' for us all and the awareness arising will depend on the accumulated insight and the other vital conditions rather than these other traits. This is the reason that the Teachings are true for all, in the Buddha's day or now. >The > main thing is that one gets the experiences that are appropriate for > oneself as an > individual. In other words, even having the eyes you have, if you are > color > blind, comes from a karmic or conditional cause, and so if you get a > 'rupa' that > is in black and white, because you don't register colors, well, that is > the > perfect karmic rupa for you, and so it's still a 'paramatha dhamma' > because it is > *your* absolute object for your current state of evolution/causation. I'm not sure about it being 'perfect karmic rupa', but it is the rupa which appears and is paramattha as you say. Just as we can say that painful bodily feeling may not be as 'perfect' as pleasant bodily feeling, but they are both conditioned anyway and so from the point of view of developing sati, it doesn't matter what the vipaka (result of kamma) is. This also applies to the accumulations; regardless of whether it is attachment or metta arising now, they can both equally be objects of awareness and this is why the only real hindrance to the development of satipatthana is ignorance (or wrong view). > I can accept that as an explanation of what you get being appropriate > for you, but > on the more basic level of the human condition of being in a body with > built in > cameras [eyes], sensors [skin] etc., it does not seem that this > explanation is > satisfactory enough. It does not account for the fact that the human > body and > mind themselves are inherently subjective, since they only really record > images, > not the objects themselves. Images may be objects in their own right, > and I could > accept the idea that images are the real objects of human existence, > which is what > I think is the case until one has extra-sensory access to objects. But > I cannot > accept that we get the 'actual' object through our senses. Senses are a > particular way of getting at an object, it is not an 'accurate' way. > Smell only > gives us a certain view of object, it doesn't really give us a 'real' > view. It is > limited and biased by its own equippage. Same with all the senses, > which all form > images according to their, not the object's, nature. Awareness is only aware of just that dhamma which is experienced. It may seem that the smell experienced or the sound heard is not a perfect or accurate smell or sound, but it is that particular one that 'appears' to awareness. At the moment of appearing, there is no doubt about its nature and no thought about how it isn't really accurate. Furthermore, the object is never the same as at any other time. If there is thinking about it now, or trying to work it out, then the reality which can be known is thinking. At a moment of awareness of thinking, there are no stories or idea of accuracy. > Is my problem any clearer with all this explanation? I hope so, and > that it may > have some form of resolution, for I can't see it. This idea leaves me > personally > with the disposition to look at the mind and its processes [namas] > rather than to > think that I am actually seeing rupas. In looking at the way the mind > processes > information, one can get at the reality of being human, but not by > positing > external objects that are 'real' and whose descriptions we think are > accurate. I understand exactly what you're saying. As I've mentioned before, I was trained as a (scientific) psychologist and was used to theorising about perceptual processes. I think the real difficulty is when we take the concepts for being realities rather than understanding and being aware of what actually appears now. It's not easy at all and I'm aware that I'm not expressing myself well. I'll do my best with your other posts but also hope that Jon or someone else will be able to clarify further. I really apprciate your keen interest and recognition of the importance of understanding these different phenomena. Sarah ==================================== 11141 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS --- Sarah wrote: > Dan, > > Thanks and very helpful additional comments (in my mind anyway). Can't you > stay a little to help any posts that come in which don't share these > sentiments?? I guess that would be me! > Always good to know you're around and thanks again for the colourful > pixs.....I'll mark a month or two down in my diary;-) By then it will be too late! Anders, are you with me or against me? (never can tell ) Best Regards, Robert Ep. 11142 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS Hi Rob, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Dan, > > > > Thanks and very helpful additional comments (in my mind anyway). Can't > you > > stay a little to help any posts that come in which don't share these > > sentiments?? > > I guess that would be me! No 1 Trouble-maker, of course;-) > > Always good to know you're around and thanks again for the colourful > > pixs.....I'll mark a month or two down in my diary;-) > > By then it will be too late! Why, what do you plan for a month of two down the track? I'm sure we'll all still be needing Dan's inspiring words then;-) > Anders, are you with me or against me? (never can tell ) Anders is not easy to 'pin' down at all.... > Hmm... doesn't sound too 'wholesome' (that was for Dan) to me..... In the meantime, look forward to hearing your comments on Dan's sentiments and reminding me of what they were;-) Sarah p.s pls address them to Dan so that we add them to his queue;-) ================================================== 11143 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:19pm Subject: Re: another vote for skillful - Re: [dsg] glossing kusala I agree with you Frank, regarding skillful rather than wholesome, and I would add that skillful is not being used in a general sense, but with regard to suffering. Something that is 'unskillful' in Buddhism is something that leads to more suffering. In that sense, 'skillful' and 'wholesome' have the same intent, and eithe one will do the job, but I agree that wholesome seems to have a moral judgment implicit in it. Best, Robert Ep. P.S. Sarah, Dan has indeed left you holding the bag, as all of the 'skillful' [or unskillful] arguers leap out of the woodwork. ============== --- frank kuan wrote: > > --- onco111 wrote: > > Thanks for the extra two cents, Sarah. "Skilful" > > still seems to carry > > a lot of "skill" baggage with it and blurs the > > distinction between > > the real root of the issue, i.e. greed, hatred, > > delusion vs. non- > > greed, non-hatred, non-delusion. The former three > > can certainly be > > wielded quite skillfully, but they are not at all > > kusala. > > > > Dan > > Hi Dan, that's a good point. Choosing the appropriate > word (skillful or wholesome for kusala) boils down to > pick your poison. > > 1) wholesome has the baggage of morality, implied > divine justice and completely arbitrary divine laws by > arbitrary deity (laws that are often akusala!), sin, > which takes the focus off of conditionality. > 2) skillful as you skillfully point out, has it's own > baggage. For example, Microsoft is skillful at heaps > of money, but certainly not kusala or wholesome. > > So given these two choices, which sucks less? I would > still vote for skillful. Skillful has an upgrade path. > People can evolve and see that skillfully robbing a > bank, skillfully killing people, skillfully running > microsoft to blackmail billions of people, is skillful > with respect to short term gains, and unclear goals. > > I believe it's easier for people to see the > limitations and grow out of misconceptions of > "skillfulnes" than it is to escape the huge baggage of > fuzzy morality imposed by major organized religions. > It's hard to escape the grasp of something like the > code of morals offered by the church because: > 1) it is 75% pretty useful or correct > 2) people think, how can a rich thousand year old > tradition offer a wrong view of > morality? > It's easier to evolve out of thinking that Microsoft > is skillful. Or one would hope. > > Ultimately, skillful, kusala, wholesome, are just > letters on a piece of paper, pointing to a concept. > It's up to people to deepen their understanding of the > concept, which is why right effort is one of my > favorite limbs of the 8fold path. In the evolution of > one's own cultivation, as long as we're continuously > trying to : > 1) prevent unskillful qualities from arising > 2) elminate current unskillful qualities > 3) arouse unarisen skillful qualities > 4) maintain and nurture arisen skullful qualities > > Even if our initial understanding of "skillful" is > incomplete or erroneous, as long as the attention and > vigilance for right effort is there, eventually it > will get ironed out. > > -fk 11144 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's --- frank kuan wrote: > [Sarah]: > p.s now it's your turn to show us some love and find a > photo > > [fk]: > I own no camera, I have no photos. Rupa, anicca. > Sanna, anicca, so why bother? :-) Hmmnn....but you do own a computer. I find this kind of suspicious. Why don't you buy a small digital camera just for our benefit? They are quite reasonable these days! Best Regards, Robert Ep. ============ > Thanks for the tips on vipallasa. I will search the > archives. 11145 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:25pm Subject: RE: 4 hallucinations/perversions Re: [dsg] Vipallasa's Dear Frank, Perhaps the 4th vipallasa is in there with the other three for the exact reason that you value it so much: it is a very effective and concrete way of experiencing the other three. One that I have been avoiding by the way. Best, Robert Ep. ====================== --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Kom, thanks for the tips, and I'll return to the > discussion after I spend a day or two researching > perception. Quick comment: > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > I think of subha as beautiful, and asubha as > > not-beautiful. > > [fk]: > Even if we soften the understanding of 4th vipallasa > (seeing impure as pure), I still don't see how it > justifies this 4th vipallasa being in the exalted > company of the other 3. Why are the first 3 exalted? > They are the exact opposite of reality: > 1) impermanence > 2) dukkha > 3) anatta > > The impurity/purity aspect is a more mundane aspect, > whereas the first 3 have both mundane and supramundane > levels. That 4th vipallasa just doesn't seem to > belong. > In one of the anguttaras, the buddha says: > > (my memory, my paraphrase) > "Dudes, whether a buddha arises or not, and goes > around educating you ignorant peoples, this natural > law of reality is going to keep operating: All > conditioned things are impermanent. > > ...this natural law of reality is going to keep > operating: all conditioned things are dukkha. > > ...this natural law of reality is going to keep > operating: all things are anatta. > > (end of sutta). > > Note the absence of asubha/subha. Just doesn't belong. > > > Now, I happen to be one of the big proponents of the > contemplation of impurities, and seeing the body as > loathsome. I think it's a big mistake for modern > westerners to neglect this aspect of practice because > it doesn't accord with their more delicate > sensibilities. However, I don't think that 4th > vipallasa belongs in the company of the other 3. > > -fk 11146 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] another vote for skillful [Hmmm...] > Is "understanding" skillful? Of course it is! And so are dancing > (well, not when I do it), lying, cheating, stealing, killing, etc. at > times. "Skillful" doesn't seem like a very skillful gloss for > "kusala." > > Dan Dear Dan, Just want to reiterate that lying cheating and stealing are not skillful in terms of Buddhism, and so there is no problem with mixing up moral skillfulness and immoral skillfulness. The skill being referred to is the skill at ending suffering, not skill in general. The above categories lead directly to more and intensified suffering so in Buddhist terms they are unskillful indeed. Best, Robert Ep. 11147 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Dear Jon, Your post here is very well stated. I want to suggest one possibility, which is the absurd notion which I none-the-less believe, that wrong view with right practice can lead to the right result. The reason I believe this, and I am ready to be challenged, is that it is the nature of insight that it is an interruption of one's view. Therefore any practice that leads to true insight will lead to right view, even in a practitioner who has the wrong view of self. What a correct practice means to me is that it is a skillful enough technique that it is 'view-proof'. It will interrupt wrong view even if the practitioner's current view of self would fight against it. Insight is a surprise occurence. It can be cultivated but not planned. The practice of mindfulness does, I believe, lead to insight, and then wrong view is gradually replaced by discernment. In my opinion, it is concentrated and repeated practice in mindfulness that leads to discernment of the actual nature of the moment. If one can do this in daily life, no one would argue with this, because that means that the person practicing this is engaged in meditation, even while going about their normal activities. But to think that correct practice of meditation does not increase one's skill at practicing mindfulness does not make sense to me. It seems that practice of attention to the moment with the least amount of distraction does lead to increased skill at developing a mindful state, which leads to insight. Rather than getting tainted fruit because of the wrong view of self, it is this kind of skill in the moment that eventually transcends and corrects wrong view. I am speaking as one who is still in a cloudy state of murky self-concept, I am sure, so I speak of this while bumping into the furniture in the dark, but never-the-less, I present it for your consideration. Best, Robert Ep. ============================ --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > > The conditions for the arising of such panna (at whatever level has > > been > > > developed to date) are both extremely subtle and extremely complex. > > But > > > they are there in the suttas to be read, pondered and realised. > > ----------------------------- > > Howard: > > What are they? And what brings them forward? Luck? Accumulations? We > > all have accumulations. Calling oneself a Buddhist doesn't create the > > conditions, does it? It seems to me that one has to "walk the walk". > > ------------------------------ > > I'm sure we're agreed on the point you make here, that actual development > does not come by thinking or theorising about the teachings. But what > does "walking the walk" involve as far as the teaching is concerned? > > The truly unique aspect of the Buddha's teaching is the insight (to use > your preferred translation) into things as they really are. Insight is > something that accrues or builds up only by developing insight(!). It is > quite different from, say, acquiring knowledge, which can be done by > following a programme of study. Almost by definition, insight cannot be > acquired by practising a technique or carrying out a form of practice. > > There are suttas in which the Buddha talks about the *factors that must be > developed* if the insight leading to enlightenment is to be gained. These > are not to be confused with suttas that *describe the attributes (factors) > of developed insight*. Among the latter I would include the 37 > bodhi-pakkhiya dhamma (‘factors of enlightenment’), which are factors that > are indeed developed (built up, increased) as insight itself develops, but > which in my view should not be seen as *things to be practised*. They are > factors *of* enlightenment, rather than the factors *for* enlightenment in > the sense that my earlier post and yours (above) are talking about. > > I have pasted below the sutta 'Sariputta' from Samyutta Nikaya - SN 55, 5 > Sotapatti-samyutta, Sariputta sutta. (This sutta is actually an exchange > between the Buddha and Sariputta, but I have taken the liberty of reducing > it to its simplest narrative form,) > > This sutta gives 4 factors (anga) that need to be developed if stream > entry is to be gained. These factors are the sota-patti-anga – ‘factors > for stream entry’, as follows -- > 1/. Association with superior persons > 2/. Hearing the true Dhamma > 3/. Careful attention > 4/. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma > > Elsewhere these same 4 factors are also given as things which, "when > developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining … , growth … and expansion > of wisdom, … to greatness of wisdom" SN 55, 59-62] > > There is I'm sure a significance to the order in which the factors are > given. Only through association with a superior person (one who > understands the dhamma and is able to share their understanding with us) > can we hear the true Dhamma (explained in the particular way we need to > hear it on that particular occasion); only having heard the true Dhamma > appropriately explained can it receive the careful consideration that > gives rise to wise attention and so awareness and insight. > > Having given the factors for stream-entry, the sutta then explains what is > meant by ‘the stream’ that is to be ‘entered’. That stream is "This Noble > Eightfold Path …; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, > right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right > concentration." > > I find interesting the relationship that the sutta brings out between the > *factors for growth of insight leading to stream-entry* and the *Noble > Eightfold Path as the 'stream' to be thus entered*. To my mind this > clearly supports the view that the Noble Eightfold Path is descriptive of > the moment of enlightenment rather than an explanation of how to get > there, and that the expanded descriptions of the 8 path-factors so often > read about should be understood in that context. > > So my brief answers to your specific questions above would be as follows– > > > What are they? > J: They are the 4 factors starting with meeting the right person (all of > which are as applicable to the person on the verge of enlightenment as > they are to the beginner). > > > And what brings them forward? Luck? Accumulations? > J: Meeting the right person and hearing the true dhamma in a given > lifetime is a matter of vipaka (result of kamma). There isn’t much we can > do about that for this lifetime(!), but if we appreciate that the study > of, reflection on and ‘careful consideration’ of the dhamma at this moment > gives us the best chance of practice that is truly ‘in accordance with’ > the dhamma, then this will in turn bring those factors forward again in > future lifetimes. > > > We all have accumulations. Calling oneself a Buddhist doesn't create the > > conditions, does it? > J: Absolutely. > > > It seems to me that one has to "walk the walk". > J: This is how we naturally tend to see things. But is it something > likely to be understood in a way that is truly ‘in accordance with’ the > texts (except as a reminder that mere theorising is not the development of > the path)? There is no point in starting the walk with wrong view -- I > say this because of the frequently-met assertion that insight is developed > by undertaking a formal practice even though there is inevitably an idea > of self involved in doing so ‘at the initial stages’. A form of practice > that is done with a wrong view of self at the initial stages, followed by > the apparent experiencing of the *right results*, simply leads to a > strengthening of the wrong view of self. > > Jon > > SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta), 5. ‘Sariputta’ > > "What is a factor for stream-entry? > Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing > the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a > factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a > factor for stream-entry. > > “What is the stream? > This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right > intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, > fright mindfulness, right concentration. > > “What is a stream-enterer? > One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this > venerable one of such a name and clan.” 11148 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Dear Sarah, Thanks for your efforts to clarify this topic. There is a little light getting in each time the idea of the rupa is clarified. I want to read this a few more times, and I will see if I have anything intelligent or intelligible to add. Thanks again, Robert Ep. ===================== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > I'm a little behind with replies to you too, but will catch up soon;-) > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I really appreciate your interacting with my overwhelming tome. I would > > only try > > to clarify one point, which I guess is hard to express properly: that > > there is no > > such thing as direct perception of a rupa. The only way we experience > > hardness or > > visible object is through an act of perception. In what way is that act > > of > > perception ever pure? Even if it is completely devoid of any concept, > > it is still > > being transmitted by a perceptual organ [eye] which is picking it up and > > forming > > an image of it in order to bring it to the brain through the optical > > cortex. > > When we start thinking of brain and optical cortex and so on, these are > concepts. When there is awareness which is aware of hardness or visible > object there is no idea of concept at all. We can think and think about > how this may logically be possible, but in reality (that word again), at a > moment of being aware of one of these rupas, just its nature or > characteristic appears without any thinking. > > So it's quite different from scientific theory or psychological processes. > Whether seeing or awareness can be called 'pure' is debatable. From a > dhamma perspective, sanna is the mental factor which perceives or marks > the object at every moment. On account of sanna, there is thinking and > clinging to these objects and so on. So sanna or perception plays a > crucial role. It also has a 'nature' whch can be known, but it is quite > different from scientific or psychological perception. > > >To > > what extent are these organs which transmit the image pure? And to what > > extent > > does the 'image' which does not exist three-dimensionally which the > > brain actually > > gets to 'see' corrrespond with the 'real rupa'. > > I think these are conceptual or scientific questions. > > > Now if you say there is no 'real rupa' because a rupa is not different > > than the > > act of perception that selects it, > > Sorry but this doesn't sound like anything I'd say...;-) > > > then you once again have a framed and > > interpreted object which is the product of the organs of sense and of > > the brain > > that interprets the image thus created, not an 'actual rupa'. When the > > optical > > cortex gets the image from the eyes, it is upside down, because of the > > mechanics > > of the inverted lenses that reflect off of the optical mechanism in the > > brain. > > The brain through an act of translation has to turn the image right side > > up. So > > this is all a manipulation/translation/correction of a selected aspect > > of > > 'reality' that is being produced by mental processes. How does this > > represent any > > sort of 'absolute object'? It seems to me that it merely represents the > > mind's > > version of object, and a selected aspect at that. > > These are theories or conceptual truths about processes which are not > based on the experience of paramattha or absolute dhammas, as I > understand. > > > There is no getting around the fact that we get all of our experiences > > through > > mental mechanics. They are as 'pure' as a camera or a tv set. Get a > > more > > expensive HDTV and the image thus created is totally different than the > > cheaper > > variety. > > > > Now, Jonathan said to me a while back, and helped me quite a bit, that a > > 'rupa' > > need not be perfect in some external sense, because one is only getting > > the > > perceptions that one is karmically and conditionally ordained to get > > anyway. > > As I just suggested to Herman, when we talk about the development of > awareness, it makes no difference how good our eyesight or hearing is, for > example. Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether we're smart with good > memories in a conventional sense or are energetic or healthy. Namas and > rupas appearing are just as 'real' for us all and the awareness arising > will depend on the accumulated insight and the other vital conditions > rather than these other traits. This is the reason that the Teachings are > true for all, in the Buddha's day or now. > > >The > > main thing is that one gets the experiences that are appropriate for > > oneself as an > > individual. In other words, even having the eyes you have, if you are > > color > > blind, comes from a karmic or conditional cause, and so if you get a > > 'rupa' that > > is in black and white, because you don't register colors, well, that is > > the > > perfect karmic rupa for you, and so it's still a 'paramatha dhamma' > > because it is > > *your* absolute object for your current state of evolution/causation. > > I'm not sure about it being 'perfect karmic rupa', but it is the rupa > which appears and is paramattha as you say. Just as we can say that > painful bodily feeling may not be as 'perfect' as pleasant bodily feeling, > but they are both conditioned anyway and so from the point of view of > developing sati, it doesn't matter what the vipaka (result of kamma) is. > This also applies to the accumulations; regardless of whether it is > attachment or metta arising now, they can both equally be objects of > awareness and this is why the only real hindrance to the development of > satipatthana is ignorance (or wrong view). > > > I can accept that as an explanation of what you get being appropriate > > for you, but > > on the more basic level of the human condition of being in a body with > > built in > > cameras [eyes], sensors [skin] etc., it does not seem that this > > explanation is > > satisfactory enough. It does not account for the fact that the human > > body and > > mind themselves are inherently subjective, since they only really record > > images, > > not the objects themselves. Images may be objects in their own right, > > and I could > > accept the idea that images are the real objects of human existence, > > which is what > > I think is the case until one has extra-sensory access to objects. But > > I cannot > > accept that we get the 'actual' object through our senses. Senses are a > > particular way of getting at an object, it is not an 'accurate' way. > > Smell only > > gives us a certain view of object, it doesn't really give us a 'real' > > view. It is > > limited and biased by its own equippage. Same with all the senses, > > which all form > > images according to their, not the object's, nature. > > Awareness is only aware of just that dhamma which is experienced. It may > seem that the smell experienced or the sound heard is not a perfect or > accurate smell or sound, but it is that particular one that 'appears' to > awareness. At the moment of appearing, there is no doubt about its nature > and no thought about how it isn't really accurate. Furthermore, the object > is never the same as at any other time. > > If there is thinking about it now, or trying to work it out, then the > reality which can be known is thinking. At a moment of awareness of > thinking, there are no stories or idea of accuracy. > > > Is my problem any clearer with all this explanation? I hope so, and > > that it may > > have some form of resolution, for I can't see it. This idea leaves me > > personally > > with the disposition to look at the mind and its processes [namas] > > rather than to > > think that I am actually seeing rupas. In looking at the way the mind > > processes > > information, one can get at the reality of being human, but not by > > positing > > external objects that are 'real' and whose descriptions we think are > > accurate. > > I understand exactly what you're saying. As I've mentioned before, I was > trained as a (scientific) psychologist and was used to theorising about > perceptual processes. I think the real difficulty is when we take the > concepts for being realities rather than understanding and being aware of > what actually appears now. It's not easy at all and I'm aware that I'm not > expressing myself well. I'll do my best with your other posts but also > hope that Jon or someone else will be able to clarify further. > > I really apprciate your keen interest and recognition of the importance of > understanding these different phenomena. > > Sarah > ==================================== > > 11149 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > --- Sarah wrote: > > > Dan, > > > > > > Thanks and very helpful additional comments (in my mind anyway). Can't > > you > > > stay a little to help any posts that come in which don't share these > > > sentiments?? > > > > I guess that would be me! > > No 1 Trouble-maker, of course;-) > > > > Always good to know you're around and thanks again for the colourful > > > pixs.....I'll mark a month or two down in my diary;-) > > > > By then it will be too late! > > Why, what do you plan for a month of two down the track? I'm sure we'll > all still be needing Dan's inspiring words then;-) > > > Anders, are you with me or against me? (never can tell ) > > Anders is not easy to 'pin' down at all.... > > > > > Hmm... doesn't sound too 'wholesome' (that was for Dan) to me..... > > In the meantime, look forward to hearing your comments on Dan's sentiments > and reminding me of what they were;-) > Sarah > > p.s pls address them to Dan so that we add them to his queue;-) > ================================================== whoops, not sure if I addressed these issues to Dan or not......it was a few minutes ago, so I can no longer remember..... : ) Best, Robert Ep. 11150 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attn Michael, Sujin, Nina and Sarah Dear Sir - michael, I feel so nice to have your mail. And ofcourse with a lot of questions. The first is, is my salutation - I was not sure whether I should put Venerable or not. so I addressed you as Sir - michael. So... yes I am from Sri Lanka and live in Sri Lanka. And how did you come to Sri Lanka? And it is wonderful news to me that nina and sujin were here too. Was Sarah here too? How about nina and sujin, like to know how they were in Sri Lanka too. And you said Sri Lanka was a special place to you. How? And where are you located now? 1976 - mmm... I have been a very very small boy at that time. Sorry for taking long to reply... I had a long weekend - over here is was independence day on Monday. Thank you very much to your mail... Please write to me, with much meththa.... Ranil >From: "michael newton" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] glossing kusala >Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:29:03 -0800 > >Hello!Ranil; >Judgeing by your name,means that you must be from Sri Lanka.I lived >as a novice monk there in the70's.Sri Lanka is a special place to me, >are you there now?Or elsewhere?I recently joined the dhamma study group >so decided to reply to this.I was there when Khun Sujin and Nina van >Gorhom were there in 76.YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL > 11151 From: anders_honore Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- anders_honore wrote: > > > I am not saying to avoid it. Indeed, I will say that such a > > perception is extremely skilful. But it is perception nonetheless, > > and thus only 'partial emptiness'. > > Well, Anders, we're pretty close on this. But still have a familiar problem with > eliminating samsara in order to have a pure experience of emptiness, nibbana, or > other enlightened qualities. If you say that emptiness is 'full' or 'partial' > depending on whether phenomena arise or not, I am not talking about the seeing of emptiness in dependence on the absence of phenomena or not, but in dependence on the absence of ignorance. 11152 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Watching experiences vs. Right Effort (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Lucy --- Lucy wrote: > Hi Jon … > Now, the question from a relative beginner is: isn't this > practice of watching experiences at the conceptual level part of the > Right > Effort from which the conditions will eventually arise (as well as from > application of the other 7)? Although not real awareness, the > 'intentional, > conceptual watching' seems to be very necessary, at least to 'my' > conditions. I once practised with a school that goes with panna alone, > but > that kept me feeling lost (not knowing what to do when not sitting in > meditation - or even during meditation!) and eventually regressing. In > the > end, had to admit that it wasn't the right path for 'my' conditions and > that more effort at the conceptual level was needed - even though that > way > of practice seems to fit other people like a glove! To my understanding, Lucy, and also as a relative beginner, Right Effort is quite a different thing from the practice of watching experiences (which, as you say, is at the conceptual level). Firstly, Right Effort is the effort that is associated with a particular level of kusala (wholesomeness/skilfulness) only, namely, the kusala of the moment of awareness of a characteristic of a reality (satipatthana). So it is not associated with all kusala mind-states. Secondly, Right Effort is in fact the effort that is embodied in the kusala consciousness at those moments. It is the effort *of* a moment of satipatthana, not the effort *to have* a moment of satipatthana. In a recent post to Howard that you may have seen I discussed a sutta that sets out the factors that need to be developed if insight/satipatthana is to be developed (they are, association with 'superior persons', hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma.). From this sutta and elsewhere in the texts and commentaries, I think it is clear that it is these 4 factors, and not any 'intentional watching', or anything involving 'effort' of the conventional kind, that can lead to the arising of awareness. That awareness will then be accompanied by the factor of right effort. So whether we follow a practice that places importance on 'intentional watching' or on 'panna alone', we should bear in mind that in either case any idea of the need for or value of volitional effort will probably be indicative of a latent wrong view (not to mention, of course, attachment to achieving results). > It's very true that there is only the conditions that are arising now, > everything else is like a varnish that we fabricate. And we can get into > a > real mess if we don't recognise that (been there, done that!). But > within > those conditions isn't there a slot for Right Effort, viriya ? Please > correct me if this is silly, every moment 'we' create the conditions > that > will arise 'later' and modify existing tendencies, habits, etc., so, > even > if the effort isn't the 'real thing', isn't it part of the path? My thoughts on this would be that if there is an idea that we need or ought to be doing something to create the right conditions (present or future), then there is again the same mistaken idea about volitional effort. > The other question that comes to mind is, what to do when there's an > inner > urge to do more? I know this can be false, but could it also be true > aspiration? Part of the conditions? I've been concerned with this > question > for a while now, not knowing whether to take it seriously or dismiss it. > My > reaction varies from wanting to shave my head at once to 'if I ignore > it, > it'll go away' - would you or anyone have a 'Middle Way' to suggest? > > Duh!, I'm sure this has been discussed before - better go and read old > messages in the archive to find out. I think the middle way would be to see any 'inner urge' as it is, for what it is (and this is indeed the function of insight/satipatthana/vipassana). I know that that's a lot easier said than done, but just to realise at an intellectual level that this is indeed the middle way, and why that should be so, is a good start. It still doesn't stop us wanting to 'deal with' it by one means or another, but then such notions are accumulated and deeply rooted in all of us. Only the stream-enterer no longer has wrong view. > About watching TV..... … > > And if you follow this through I think you will find it let's you off > the > > hook when it comes to watching TV vs. thinking you should be doing any > > 'practice'! > Oh, no! It DOESN'T --- and I was going to watch Liverpool vs. Arsenal > next. > Well, perhaps I'll watch just this once and try to develop equanimity :) (Not by any chance a slightly more subtle way of trying to 'deal with' a particular tendency? ;-)) ) Happy viewing (with kusala!) Jon 11153 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'No control' vs the 4 padhanas (was, samma samadhi) Christine I enjoyed your post and the story about wartime interrogation techniques based on class sensibilities. And I think I agree with your sentiments on control when you say: > I still find the idea of no control hard to understand/accept, and > would be delighted if someone showed me a loophole .......but, > despite trying, I can't point to any area of life where there is > complete control. Control seems to be one of those words where it > is 'all' or 'nothing'. Yes, all or nothing is right, in the sense that anything less than total control is really no control. > On the subject of 'control'/'no-control'.......how does 'padhana' > relate? Does the 'rousing of will' in this teaching mean that the > application of effort achieves a 'controllable' result? (planning > and goal setting) > "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome > things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome > things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them > disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full > perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, > exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). The 4 padhana's are in fact a description of the function(s) of Right Effort. You may have noticed how some realities were 'packaged' differently by the Buddha in different contexts. In this way they can be considered and understood from different angles. Right Effort is probably the most frequently mentioned of the bodhi-pakkhiya dhammas or 'factors of enlightenment' (lit. 'things pertaining to enlightenment'). It is counted a number of times in the factors, including as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path and as the 4 padhana's. Now for reasons that I've explained in recent posts to Howard and (just now) to Lucy, the bodhi-pakkhiya dhammas (including the padhanas and Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path) are factors that are descriptive of the insight/enlightenment process. They are factors that are developed as insight is developed, rather than being factors *to be developed* in their own right. So the passage you quote above should in my view be seen as a description of what is actually happening at, and within, a single moment of insight. Hope this makes sense. Jon 11154 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 7:44am Subject: RE: [dsg] delusion (moha) Greetings Larry, Some thoughts, and hopefully others will contribute more. > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Two questions: Would it be correct to say > delusion of self and concept > of self are two different phenomena? I would think so. The buddha had no delusion about self, but he had a concept of self (otherwise, he wouldn't be able to express it in words). > If so, what > are the distinguishing > characteristics of delusion of self? I'm not > talking about self delusion > (telling oneself a lie), rather a "belief" in a > self that doesn't > involve concepts. You may be talking about two different realities: moha and micha-ditthi. The delusion (moha) prevents its associated states to see the realities as they really are (as non-self). From Cetasikas: The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives the following definition of moha: “Delusion” has the characteristic of blindness or opposition to knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or the function of covering the intrinsic nature of the object; the manifestation of being opposed to right practice or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise attention; and should be regarded as the root of all immoralities. Dhammasangaùi (A Buddhist Manual of Psychological Ethics, §390) about moha, here translated as dullness: What on that occasion is dullness? The lack of knowledge, of vision, which is there on that occasion; the lack of coordination, of judgement, of enlightenment, of penetration; the inability to comprehend, to grasp thoroughly; the inability to compare, to consider, to demonstrate; the folly, the childishness, the lack of intelligence; the dullness that is vagueness, obfuscation, ignorance, the Flood (ogha) of ignorance, the Bond (yoga) of ignorance, the bias of ignorance, the obsession of ignorance, the barrier of ignorance; the dullness that is the root of badness— this is the dullness that there then is. Also from Cetasikas: The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 248) gives the following definition of wrong view, diììhi: … It has unwise conviction as characteristic; perversion as function; wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest fault. I think when moha arises, one is deluded regardless of whether the object is a reality or a concept. If both Moha and ditthi arises, one is not only deluded, but one takes the object of delusion as being true representation of realities as a conviction. > > Also, as a sub-question, what is belief? I assume > that both concepts and > delusions can be believed. I think belief is a very complex set of mental phenomena that can be either kusala or akusala. Wrong views (like the eternalist view that we persist forever) obviously arise with delusion. Thinking about the right concepts may be just decision (athimoka) without panna, or may arise with panna. kom 11155 From: Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really lon... Hi, Sarah (and Herman) - Reading this post of yours, Sarah, has confirmed my growing realization that Abhidhamma, more even than the Sutta Pitaka, has an overwhelmingly phenomenalist slant, which, of course, appeals to me as I am a rather radical phenomenalist myself. I make the following association with this phenomenalist slant of Abhidhamma: It is interesting to me that a co-father of the Vijnanavada/Yogacara school of Mahayana was Vasubandhu, originally an Abhidharmist for the Sarvastivadin school who wrote the work Treasury of Abhidharma. (Sarvastivada was a sister school to Theravada with some definite deficiencies in the form of eternalist, substantialist doctrine.) For anyone interested, a biography of Vasubandhu can be found at the following web site: http://www.human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp/~acmuller/yogacara/thinkers/vasubandhu-bio -asc.htm With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/5/02 12:25:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Herman, > > Rumour has it that you were missing us all at the weekend too;-) > > --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Sarah, Robert et > al, > > > > Just when you thought you were going to take a break on this :-) > > > > > > I believe some of the confusion that arises from the rupa / nama > > division is caused by the way the process of cognition is described. > > It is said that visible object impinges on the eye sense and seeing > > nama arises to know the object. The problem with this statement is > > that the cart is before the horse. The object does not become visible > > object until after it has been seen. > > I understand your point. I would say it is visible object WHEN it is seen. > In other words, if we close our eyes or fall into asleep now, no visible > object appears and therefore there is no seeing. So visible object is one > essential condition for seeing. When the visible object appears, it > conditions the seeing and vice versa. The eye base is another essential > condition and the mental factors arising with seeing also condition it and > vice versa again. If there hadn't been a moment of consciousness > immediately prior to the seeing, there also would be no seeing. Without > previous kamma, there'd be no seeing. So the conditions for this moment of > seeing are very complex and also for the visible object that is seen at > this moment. > > >Before it is seen (nama) it is > > not visible object, just object, and unknown at that, but there > > nonetheless. > > I'm not at all sure we can say this. The particular visible object which > is seen now (quite different from what was seen an instant ago) is not the > same rupa that has ever been experienced before and we cannot say it is > there if there is no seeing of it now. > > >The objects that are discerned through the five sense > > doors impinge on all sense doors alike, and everything else within > > reach as well. > > It may seem that we see 'vibration' or smell 'softness', but in reality, > seeing only sees visible object and so on. The sense door processes folow > each other very rapidly and the sanna (perception,memory) marks the > objects to condition different ways of thinking and processing of the > information. For most blind or deaf people, I believe there are still > visible objects and sounds being experienced, even though they are so > 'blurry' and the indiviudal has to depend on many other experiences to > manage. However 'blurry', awareness can be mindful of the rupa if there > are the right conditins. > > > > Some rupas impinge meaningfully on more than one sense base and cause > > namas of more than one type. Sound, for example, can be heard but is > > also palpable as body sense. This way a deaf man is capable of tuning > > a musical instrument, based on the vibrations felt in the body. Sound > > can be felt. Do we identify two rupas in this case or one? > > I think I jumped ahead. It may seem that sound can be felt, but isn't it > the combination of the 'blurry' sound and experience of vibrations through > the bodysense? Good areas to consider, I think. So many different namas > and rupas arising all the time. It will depend on many factors as to which > will be the objects of awareness. > > > Taste and smell are also deeply intertwined. > > It's very true and it's this intertwining of different experiences and > different rupas without awareness that gives rise to the ideas of wholes > and selves. > > > What is the difference between a visible object rupa and a visible > > object arammana > > They sound the same to me. Visible object is always a rupa and always > arammana. > > > > All the best > > Excellent points and questions. Sorry for the delay....Pls let me know if > it isn't clear or sounds too much like a regurgitated commentary;-) I > think these points about rupa and the distinction between it and nama are > at the real heart of the Teachings. I hope Jon also helps clarify your > other points where you and Rob Ep are 162%(?) in agreement;-) > > Sarah > ============================== /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11156 From: Lucy Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really lon... Hi Howard Maybe that's why Abhidhamma appeals to me too : ) You may be interested in this article "Vijnaptimatrata and the Abhidharma context of early Yogacara" byRichard King, Asian Philosophy. Vol. 8 No. 1 Mar.1998 http://pears2.lib.ohio-state.edu/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/richard.htm Best wishes Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: > Reading this post of yours, Sarah, has confirmed my growing > realization that Abhidhamma, more even than the Sutta Pitaka, has an > overwhelmingly phenomenalist slant, which, of course, appeals to me as I am a > rather radical phenomenalist myself. > I make the following association with this phenomenalist slant of > Abhidhamma: It is interesting to me that a co-father of the > Vijnanavada/Yogacara school of Mahayana was Vasubandhu, originally an > Abhidharmist for the Sarvastivadin school who wrote the work Treasury of > Abhidharma. (Sarvastivada was a sister school to Theravada with some definite > deficiencies in the form of eternalist, substantialist doctrine.) For anyone > interested, a biography of Vasubandhu can be found at the following web site: > > http://www.human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp/~acmuller/yogacara/thinkers/vasubandhu- bio > > -asc.htm > > With metta, > Howard > 11157 From: Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really lon... Hi, Lucy - In a message dated 2/5/02 1:59:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, selene@c... writes: > > Hi Howard > > Maybe that's why Abhidhamma appeals to me too : ) > > You may be interested in this article > "Vijnaptimatrata and the Abhidharma context of early Yogacara" > byRichard King, Asian Philosophy. Vol. 8 No. 1 Mar.1998 > http://pears2.lib.ohio-state.edu/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/richard.htm > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! This certainly sounds like it will be of considerable interest to me! --------------------------------------------------- > > Best wishes > Lucy > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11158 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 2:01pm Subject: photos - was Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions I seem to be getting a lot of peer pressure to submit a photo to dsg. No guarantees, but I'll look around. You may have to settle for my driver license photo. If there is one picture I wish I kept, it's the one of my mug shot holding a number with a big grin on my face while I was at the police station when I turned myself in on my own recognizance. My mom was pretty scared when she got a call from the cops saying there was an outstanding warrant out for my arrest. I was a poor college student at the time, and I had the option to pay a large fine or stay in prison for 30 days. I almost chose the second option. Don't mess with me, I'm dangerous :-) -fk 11159 From: azita gill Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 7:54pm Subject: Re.namas and rupas > > > > > > > > > > > > --- egberdina wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Robert et > > > al, > > > > > > > > Just when you thought you were going to take a > break on this :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe some of the confusion that arises > from the rupa / nama > > > > division is caused by the way the process of > cognition is described. > > > > It is said that visible object impinges on the > eye sense and seeing > > > > nama arises to know the object. The problem > with this statement is > > > > that the cart is before the horse. The object > does not become visible > > > > object until after it has been seen. > > > > > > I understand your point. I would say it is > visible object WHEN it is > seen. > > > In other words, if we close our eyes or fall > into asleep now, no > visible > > > object appears and therefore there is no seeing. > So visible object is > one > > > essential condition for seeing. When the visible > object appears, it > > > conditions the seeing and vice versa. The eye > base is another essential > > > condition and the mental factors arising with > seeing also condition it > and > > > vice versa again. If there hadn't been a moment > of consciousness > > > immediately prior to the seeing, there also > would be no seeing. Without > > > previous kamma, there'd be no seeing. So the > conditions for this moment > of > > > seeing are very complex and also for the visible > object that is seen at > > > this moment. > > > > > > >Before it is seen (nama) it is > > > > not visible object, just object, and unknown > at that, but there > > > > nonetheless. > > > > > > I'm not at all sure we can say this. The > particular visible object > which > > > is seen now (quite different from what was seen > an instant ago) is not > the > > > same rupa that has ever been experienced before > and we cannot say it is > > > there if there is no seeing of it now. > > > > > > >The objects that are discerned through the five > sense > > > > doors impinge on all sense doors alike, and > everything else within > > > > reach as well. > > > > > > It may seem that we see 'vibration' or smell > 'softness', but in > reality, > > > seeing only sees visible object and so on. The > sense door processes > folow > > > each other very rapidly and the sanna > (perception,memory) marks the > > > objects to condition different ways of thinking > and processing of the > > > information. For most blind or deaf people, I > believe there are still > > > visible objects and sounds being experienced, > even though they are so > > > 'blurry' and the indiviudal has to depend on > many other experiences to > > > manage. However 'blurry', awareness can be > mindful of the rupa if > there > > > are the right conditins. > > > > > > > > Some rupas impinge meaningfully on more than > one sense base and > cause > > > > namas of more than one type. Sound, for > example, can be heard but is > > > > also palpable as body sense. This way a deaf > man is capable of tuning > > > > a musical instrument, based on the vibrations > felt in the body. Sound > > > > can be felt. Do we identify two rupas in this > case or one? > > > > > > I think I jumped ahead. It may seem that sound > can be felt, but isn't > it > > > the combination of the 'blurry' sound and > experience of vibrations > through > > > the bodysense? Good areas to consider, I think. > So many different namas > > > and rupas arising all the time. It will depend > on many factors as to > which > > > will be the objects of awareness. > > > > > > > Taste and smell are also deeply intertwined. > > > > > > It's very true and it's this intertwining of > different experiences and > > > different rupas without awareness that gives > rise to the ideas of > wholes > > > and selves. > > > > > > > What is the difference between a visible > object rupa and a visible > > > > object arammana > > > > > > They sound the same to me. Visible object is > always a rupa and always > > > arammana. > > > > > > > > All the best > > > > > > Hello egberdina - who is really Herman, yes? I haven't quite nutted out the Who's who, yet. my 2 cents worth on the above. i understand rupas to be arising and falling away continuously whether "we" experience them or not. we learn about the 28 rupas [i think its 28]in Abhidhamma. These rupas are part of the conditions that get "us" here. We like some, we hate some. e.g. attachment arises when the air is pleasantly cool[i would love some pleasantly cool air right now]. Maybe Dosa [aversion] arises when smelling smells a bad odour. There are these 5 sense doorways,which are here predominately bce of Kamma, which are the bases for citta to experience an object, be it tactile e.g. hardness/softness, hot/cold, motion/pressure.; be it sound, smell, taste or visibleobject. Maybe its me that's missing something in this, but I find it easy to think of n. & r. and theoretically know one from the other. But to really KNOW nama from rupa - uh.uhh. Cheers Azita. 11160 From: Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 9:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] delusion (moha) Thanks Kom for sorting this out. I did have moha mistakenly identified. What kind of mistake is "self"? Is it purely conceptual? I was thinking that perhaps what passes for psychological self, if not ideal self, is actually attachment and aversion (lobha/dosa). Larry 11161 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 5, 2002 10:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] delusion (moha) Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > What kind of mistake is "self"? Is it purely > conceptual? If you are asking if the object that is taken as self is purely conceptual, I don't think so. We take the 5 kandhas as self, and therefore, the objects taken as selves are realities. > I was thinking > that perhaps what passes for psychological self, > if not ideal self, is > actually attachment and aversion (lobha/dosa). Taking something as self is necessarily moha, and can also be lobha, mana, and dithi. Whether or not taking something as self can also be aversion, I am not sure. kom 11162 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Dear Rob Ep, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Thanks for your efforts, Sarah. > I think the main point I'm trying to communicate here is obviously not > clear, at > least in the way I'm putting it. > > Perhaps you could clarify what is meant by the 'actual' rupa. That was a polite way of saying that perhaps I went off the track in a reply;-) I think you would find it useful to read Nina’s very useful (and recently revised, I believe) booklet on rupas. In particular, I recommend the introduction at this stage (very short;-): http://www.dhammastudy.com/Rupas1.html Let me quote a little from it: ***** “As regards physical phenomena or rupa, there are twentyeight kinds of rupa in all. Rupas are not merely textbook terms, they are realities which can be directly experienced. Rupas do not know or experience anything; they can be known by nama. Rupa arises and falls away, but it does not fall away as quickly as nama. When a characteristic of rupa such as hardness impinges on the bodysense it can be experienced through the bodysense by several cittas arising in succession within a process. But even though rupa lasts longer than citta, it falls away again, it is impermanent.” ***** > If that > is not > meant to denote an actual object in the 'real' world, but simply a > present reality > for perception, then the problem may not be there. I think this depends on whether we are discussing what is being experienced now (and therefore what can be directly known) or whether we are discussing the rupas which arise and fall regardless of any experience of them. Again I quote from Nina: ***** “There are not only rupas of the body, there are also rupas which are the material phenomena outside the body. What we take for rocks, plants or houses are rupas and these originate from temperature. We may wonder whether there are no other factors apart from the element of heat which contribute to the growth of plants, such as soil, light and moisture. It is true that these factors are the right conditions which have to be present so that a plant can grow. But what we call soil, light and moisture are, when we are more precise, different compositions of rupas and none of these could arise without the element of heat or temperature which is the producing factor. Rupas which are outside the body are only produced by temperature, not by kamma, citta or nutrition.” ***** > What I have been > trying to say > is that a 'reality' may be true as a perceptual experience, but if one > says > 'hardness' or some other rupa is 'actual', it seems to imply that it > exists in the > 'real world' outside of perception. If nothing beyond the act of > perception is > spoken of, then I can see rupa being actual and accurate as a perceptual > object, > but not as an object that can be said to really exist. > > If that is any clearer, great. If not, I'll let it go for now. : ) I see your point (I think;-) and I understand the confusion. In terms of what is important for the development of understanding, only phenomena being directly experienced can ever be ‘known’. So hardness is being experienced now every time there is touching of the keyboard. There may, therefore, be conditions for its charactristic to be the object of awareness at this moment. As understanding of its nature develops and as it becomes more and more apparent that it is a rupa and not self, it becomes clear that this is the characteristic of hardness regardless of whether it is being directly known at this moment . This is how it must be for others too. By inference also, it becomes apparent that external objects that had been taken for ‘things’ such as trees and computers are in fact only collections of rupas, but if there is no touching or seeing them, it is only thinking (wisely, hopefully) about them. Gradually, with more direct understanding of those phenomena being directly experienced, there is more confidence in the other intricate details which the Buddha described about rupas which is purely intellectual at this stage. Even if direct insight develops to very high enlightened levels, some thinking or understanding of phenomena will continue to be at the intellectual level only. No one could directly understand all the intricate details as the Buddha did. Nina summarises the purpose of studying rupas here: ***** “Rupas perform their functions, no matter one dresses oneself, eats, digests one’s food, moves about, gesticulates, talks to others, in short, during all one’s activities. If we do not study rupas we may not notice their characteristics which appear all the time in daily life. We will continue to be deluded by the outward appearance of things instead of knowing realities as they are. We should remember that the rupa which is the “earth-element” or solidity can appear as hardness or softness. Hardness impinges time and again on the bodysense, no matter what we are doing. When hardness appears it can be known as only a kind of rupa, be it hardness of the body or hardness of an external object. In the ultimate sense it is only a kind of rupa. The detailed study of nama and rupa will help us to see that there isn’t anything which is “mine” or self. The goal of the study of the Abhidhamma is the development of wisdom which leads to the eradication of all defilements.” ***** I hope a little more light has got in this time too;-) Sarah ====================================================== 11163 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 0:50am Subject: Re: another vote for skillful - Re: [dsg] glossing kusala Hi Rob Ep again, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > P.S. Sarah, Dan has indeed left you holding the bag, as all of the > 'skillful' [or > unskillful] arguers leap out of the woodwork. > > ============== I know.... panic attack;-) Still I have an idea that you, Frank and I are on the same 'skilful side' - Dan didn't get too many 'wholesome' votes, though I'm a bit of a 'blow with the breeze' on this issue.....desperate for an easy life;-) We're also very much on the same side when it comes to the photo album.....I think we'll have to gratefully accept Frank's driving licence photo as it's such a major concession, even though the convict one would have added a little more variety to the album. (You don't think he 'owns' a car as well as a computer, do you?;-)) Sarah p.s more good news..Kom's photo is on its way to the album....slowly due to technical probs;-) ====================================================== 11164 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attn Michael, Sujin, Nina and Sarah Dear Ranil, i'm sure Michael will reply for himself, so I'll leave the questions you've addressed to him. --- ranil gunawardena wrote: > And > it > is wonderful news to me that nina and sujin were here too. Was Sarah > here > too? Actually I think the visit when Michael was present was in April 1977. I'm just looking at Nina' s account of the visit which was published as "Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka', but I don't think it's on any website as yet.* She reminds me in the first chapter that she and I joined K.Sujin and another Thai friend for 5 weeks as guests in Colombo, Anuradhapura and Kandy. "The sessions were held nightly in the way of discussions. During the day we met with our Singhalese friends in their homes and discussed dhamma in a more personal way. All through those five weks we spent in Sri lanka we enjoyed the wonderful hospitality of the Singhalese while we stayed a guests in their house and were entertained at delicious curry luncheons and dinners..." Mmmmm- wonderful memories and proliferations with plenty of lobha as I day-dream a little. Actually I had stayed in a Forest Temple in Sri lanka for 7mths previously in 1975 when I'd been a serious meditator with plenty of wrong view. > How about nina and sujin, like to know how they were in Sri Lanka too. They were invited both this time and 2yrs later (when in fact I met Jon in Sri Lanka for the first time) by Capt Perera of the Buddhist Information Centre. He organised the talks and discussions which were attended by large numbers of Singhalese and many monks including Michael. I have an old photo of a group of foreign monks in Kandy which I hope to have scanned and send him in due course. A youthful B.Bodhi is also present in it. For me, these were very, very special times. I remember having to give up a good job to make this trip in '77 and use my last savings for the fare. My family thought it was madness at the time, but I've always been very glad and grateful for the opportunity. The highlight (for me) was our stay in Anuraddhapura where we were guests of a judge in the old city, just round the corner from the Bo tree. I shared a room w/Nina and K.Sujin and learnt so much from their everyday kindness, help and explanations. I remember the judge asked me how someone so 'young, mischievous and from a foreign country' could be so interested in the Teachings. We can see here on this list, that the dhamma is as applicable to us all. Hope to meet you in Sri Lanka sometime too, Ranil. Gayan kindly posted his photo, it would be nice to see any more of our friends here from this wonderful country;-) Sarah ====================================================== *there may still be some copies of Pilg in Sri Lanka at the Foundation in Bkk (free). If you, Michael (or anyone) is interested to receive a copy, pls send an email to Sukin or Unoop - addresses under 'Free Books...' in Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 11165 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS Dear Rob Ep, After a nostalgia post full of lobha to Ranil, let me get back on the parinibbana track here:-) --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Dan and Sarah, > The view that the kandhas reach cessation in parinibbana may not be a > view of > annihilation of a self that never existed, but it is still an > annihilationist view > from the point of view of sentience. Well I think that as the quotes I’ve given before have shown clearly, when the Buddha refers to annihilationist views, they are concerned with self view and ignorance of the khandhas which are all that exist in actuality. If you like, you can refer to the cessation of the khandhas at parinibbana or even to the cessation of the khandhas now on a moment to moment basis as annihilation of sentience. However, I don’t beleive this would accord with the Buddha’s use of the term which is very specific and detailed in Suttas like the Brahmajala Suttas as well as in commentaries and other parts of the Tipitaka.. > If sentience is said to cease in > parinibbana, then the one property that is not a convenient fiction but > actually > takes place is said to be annihilated. I think, with respect, this is your definition of annihilation;-). > There must be a distinction between awakening and cessation. While > certain things > cease in parinibbana, does it make sense for the awakening to cease as > well? In > that view, the awake state of nibbana also ceases upon death, and that > makes > nibbana dependent on physical existence, a strange contradiction in > terms. I take it that by awakening you mean the experience of nibbana, either at each stage of enlightenment or just at arahantship. Of course, this ‘awakening’ is quite different to parinibbana and the cessation of the khandhas. As we have discussed at length, the enlightened consciousness and wisdom which expereince nibbana are also momentary. There is no lasting experience, no lasting nama and no lasting rupa. We don’t say that nibbana is conditioned or depends on ‘physical existence’ or anything else, but the namas which experience it do. Without the experiencing of a reality, can we say it exists, except conceptually, as just discussed with regard to rupas? Hope this clarifies a little. I have to run like Num;-) Always good to hear from you, Rob, Sarah ======================== 11166 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attn Michael, Sujin, Nina and Sarah Dear Sarah, It is really nice to hear that so many of you have been to Sri Lanka and had had a chance to visit these anciant cities. As you had enjoyed your visit over here there had been many visitors to this island who had enjoyed their visit. One was Ven. Buddhagosha who wrote the book "Visuddhi Magga". And that was in Anuradha pura. Those days it was called Anuradha pura "Maha Viharaha" - large temple. And that was an era where buddhism was living in this country. But now this country is swimming against the tide. Now they are working on to put up a machine which can kill 250 cattle per day in the capital - Colombo... with insults to the people who oppose the idea. Now, for one of the leading news papers called "Sunday Observer" the Tooth Relic of the Buddha is a false one. To the same paper the LTTE tamil terrorist attack to the temple of the Tooth relic is a nee jerk thing...when the whole world thinks against terrorism, banning the terrorists was a mistake done by the previous government to the current government... now the temples are being converted to hindu kovils - some, by Buddhist monks itself. When the whole world learns history and gives importance to it, here it is removed from the syllabus purposely... you know why - they think that history creates racism (because our history is having a beautiful strong Sinhaliese cultural background more than 2500 years old). This country is going from bad to worse and worse..... Well, I guess that is nature... but it is really difficult to have feelings of "uppekka" for all these things... So! anyway... when these things are out of your control what can you do....other than just have sympathy to all the people. Because swimming against the tide is always short. I guess having to observe these things too are a part and parcel of sansara... Well, this letter might have turned to a mail which should not appear in a Dhamma list. But might as well appear just to know the status of this so called Buddhist Country. ~with much meththa Ranil 11167 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attn Michael, Sujin, Nina and Sarah --- Dear Ranil, I liked your post. I was in Sri Lanka in 1989 for a month. At that time the Tamil tiger problem had diminished and the government were in a fierce battle with the JVP. I have read the Mahavamsa and Culavamsa many times and your letter reminds me of the halcyon days when arahants walked Sri lanka even in the hundreds of thousands. The Mahavihara, that you mention, kept the Theravada tradition pristine; even when threatened by hostile kings. They had such compassion for future generations and would rather die than change the doctrine. robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ranil gunawardena" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > It is really nice to hear that so many of you have been to Sri Lanka and had > had a chance to visit these anciant cities. As you had enjoyed your visit > over here there had been many visitors to this island who had enjoyed their > visit. One was Ven. Buddhagosha who wrote the book "Visuddhi Magga". And > that was in Anuradha pura. Those days it was called Anuradha pura "Maha > Viharaha" - large temple. And that was an era where buddhism was living in > this country. But now this country is swimming against the tide. Now they > are working on to put up a machine which can kill 250 cattle per day in the > capital - Colombo... with insults to the people who oppose the idea. Now, > for one of the leading news papers called "Sunday Observer" the Tooth Relic > of the Buddha is a false one. To the same paper the LTTE tamil terrorist > attack to the temple of the Tooth relic is a nee jerk thing...when the whole > world thinks against terrorism, banning the terrorists was a mistake done by > the previous government to the current government... now the temples are > being converted to hindu kovils - some, by Buddhist monks itself. When the > whole world learns history and gives importance to it, here it is removed > from the syllabus purposely... you know why - they think that history > creates racism (because our history is having a beautiful strong Sinhaliese > cultural background more than 2500 years old). This country is going from > bad to worse and worse..... > > Well, I guess that is nature... but it is really difficult to have feelings > of "uppekka" for all these things... > So! anyway... when these things are out of your control what can you > do....other than just have sympathy to all the people. Because swimming > against the tide is always short. I guess having to observe these things too > are a part and parcel of sansara... > > Well, this letter might have turned to a mail which should not appear in a > Dhamma list. But might as well appear just to know the status of this so > called Buddhist Country. > > ~with much meththa > Ranil > 11168 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 6:51am Subject: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 1 --- This is from a discussion I had on d-l: I picked up a copy of Paticcasamuppada - Practical Dependent Origination by Ven. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (of Thailand)after some prior discussions about it. In these discussions it was suggested that the Buddha did not teach rebirth and that this was a wrong idea that had come into the teachings. This book was cited as a source and guide. I had read the book many years ago and have now reread it. I think it has many useful points and I certainly appreciate any book on this most profound teaching of Paticcasamuppada. However, I remain convinced that the Buddha taught rebirth and that it is indeed a necessary corrollary of anatta and conditionality. I'd like to begin with these comments from the venerable Buddhadasa's book. He writes that p6 "therefore teaching Paticcasamupada in such a way that there is a self persisting over a series of lives is contrary to the principle of dependent origination." This is, of course, evident to anyone who has had even a cursory look at the Tipitaka; anatta is really the bedrock of Dhamma. However, in the next sentence he says that "dependent origination is on no way concerned with morality which must depend upon a theory of Eternalism". This I don't follow. Kamma is simply a conditioned phenomenon - and it is just natural law that certain types of action lead to certain results. We can think of this as a moral law without evoking any self. In the following paragraph p.6 he says that an incorrectly explained theory has been taught for a thousand years. On p8 he explains with regard to this that the "during the time the commentaries were composed there arose a widespread tendency to explain matters of ultimate truths in terms of the Eternalist theory." He lays the blame for all this on Buddhaghosa (ancient composer of the Visuddhimagga and many important commentaries) p8."the same person who collected all the commentaries together so that total blind acceptance..will allow only one voice to be heard." He is not sure how this wrongview arose but he speculates that it either happened because of lack of insight OR he thinks that it was a deliberate plot to destroy Buddhism for Brahmins who believed in atta (self)see page 51-52. He notes that there is no written evidence before the time of the Visuddhimagga [written by Buddhaghosa]where Paticcasamupada was explained wrongly. And that at the time of the third council (long before Buddhaghosa ) if one had "said there was a self that spun around in the cycle of birth and death and rebirth as in the case of Bhikkhu Sati he was held to be holding wrong views in the sense of Eternalism and was made to leave the order" . He equates such wrong views with the Visuddhimagga. He does kindly note that Buddhaghosa p60 "is a man of great knowledge." He then says ."BUT I don't agree with him at all regarding Dependent Origination because he spoke of it in terms of a soul and so it became Brahministic." And he carries on (p63) to note that he "is not going to defile of defame or villify Buddhaghosa..I only want to make some observations. Buddhaghosa was born a Brahmin..and he completed a study of the three vedas like any other Brahmin. His spirit was that of a Brahmin..if he later came to explain the Buddhist theory of Dependent Origination as a form of Brahminism it is most reasonable to supsect that he was careless and forgetful so that he cannot be considered to be an Arahat."" So to sum up venerable Buddhadasa is suggesting that Buddhaghosa taught an Eternalistic (self, atta) version of the Paticcasamuppada. Is that true? I think it is best to let the ancient texts speak for themselves. From the relevant section of the Visuddhimagga Chapter XV11 Dependent origination 113 "but how does a man who is confused about these things perform these three kinds of formations? Firstly, when he is confused about death, instead of taking death thus 'death in every case is break up of aggregates(khandas, not-self)' he figures that it is lasting being's transmigration to another incarnation and so on". 115 "when he is confused about the round of rebirths, instead of taking the round of rebirths as pictured thus: 'an endless chain of aggregates(khandas) of elements(dhatus) bases(ayatanas) that carries on unbrokenly is what is called 'the round or rebirths' he figures that it is a lasting being that goes from this world to another world, that comes from another world to this world"endquote 117"when he is cofused about independently-arisen states, instead of taking the occurence of formations to be due to ignorance etc., he figures that it is a self that knows or does not know, that acts and causes action..." 161 "a mere state that has got its conditions ushers in the ensuing existence; While it does not migrate from the past, with no cause in the past it is not. So a mere material and immaterial state, arisen when it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither transmigrated from the past nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that"....... " 273 "Becomings wheel reveals no known beginning; no maker, no experiencer there; Void with a twelvefold voidness,"" 313 "one who sees this rightly abandons the self view by understanding the absence of a maker. One who sees it wrongly clings to the moral -inefficacy of action view because he does not perceive that the causative function of ignorance etc us established as a law.." 314 "[and so] let a wise man with mindfulness so practice that he may begin to find a footing in the deeps of the dependent origination" Now another point about the book. On page 62 Venerable Buddhadasa says that by explaining Paticcasamuppada as happening over several lives and suggesting that "kamma in this life gives rise to results in some far off future life it as if there are no kammic results(vipaka) at all which we receive in the birth in which the deed was done.....to suggest that defilements and kamma from a past life become effective in this, a later life, is impossible"" Firstly, I'd like to say that truly there is no one who receives results but that results arise by conditions (just to be pedantic). From the Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere arising of fruit (vipaka);" Secondly he doesn't acknowledge that the commentaries (and tipitaka) say that the results of kamma can indeed arise in this life,..(or at the time of death or in future lives). They say it is pretty much unpredictable (except to the Buddha) when the results will arise because of the many other conditions that support or impede kamma. Here is a quote from the Tipitaka: " Threefold, however, is the fruit of karma: ripening during the life-time (dittha-dhamma-vedaníya-kamma), ripening in the next birth (upapajja-vedaníya-kamma), ripening in later births (aparápariya-vedaníya kamma) ...." (A.VI, 63). I think this is enough for one post. I want to add some more later about how the Paticcasamupada is a very practical teaching here and now - as shown by the Visuddhimagga. robert . --- End forwarded message --- 11169 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka op 05-02-2002 12:04 schreef ranil gunawardena op dearranil@h...: And how did you come to Sri Lanka? And it > is wonderful news to me that nina and sujin were here too. Was Sarah here > too? > > How about nina and sujin, like to know how they were in Sri Lanka too. Dear Ranil, yes, I was twice in Sri Lanka on Dhamma trip with Khun Sujin, Sarah and Jonothan, and the second time was I believe in 1979 . The first time the great captain Pereira organized the sessions in the Buddhist Information Center, Colombo. Ven. Bodhi was there too. And the Nayaka, the Patriarch, who passed away a few years ago. We went around talking to different people and groups. I was very impressed by people's interest and their knowledge of Pali. Their hospitality was extraordinary, we stayed in their houses and they entertained us every day, cooked wonderful meals. They took us to the places that the Buddha is said to have visited. We went to the place Sangamitta halted with her company, after having taken a shoot of the Bo tree in India. And we visited Anuradhapura. One night there was a sea of white lotusses around the Bodhitree and we went around, following Ven. Dhammadharo and other monks. The very kind monk who had arranged for the lotusses passed away a few years ago. We stayed in the house of the judge who also passed away. My tale has become a marana sati. We also visited the late ven. Nyanaponika and the late ven. Narada. I wrote , this is printed in Thai and English, but I do not know whether it is available in Thailand. I also wrote but this may be later on a website, I do not know. I did not type it on computer. Best wishes from Nina. 11170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] ayatanas op 04-02-2002 23:09 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: . My aunt mentioned > that she's helping someone translated your book into Thai, she is helping > with looking up the reference in VisDM and Com. I noted that in Vibhanga the last pair called manayatana and > dhammayatana. Dhammayatana is including sannakhandha, vedanakhandha, > sankarakhandha, anitassana-apatiga(invisible- uncontactable) rupa and > asankata-dhatu. In Sabbasutta, the pair is mano and dhamma in Pali and in > Thai translation is mano and dhammaramana. My question is pannatti is not > asankata-dhatu but can be listed as dhammaramana. My understanding is every > citta can be called manayatana, but can we call pannatti as external ayatana > or dhammayatana in a manodvara-vitthi which has pannati as an aramana? I > think dhammaramana has a broader meaning than dhammayatana. I was surprised > that even all cetasika are called as external ayatana. >Dear Num, Which book your aunt is helping to translate? I think that under the heading of ayatanas only paramattha dhammas have been classified: they associate, meet each other. Cetasikas are external ayatanas. When I first heard this I was also surprised. The Atthasalini (I, Part IV, Ch II, 141) explains that citta is birth-place, meeting- place and reason. .... The cetasikas could not arise without citta, citta is their reason or cause. Just as the eye is a base for the experience of visible object, so is citta the base or foundation for cetasikas which are external ayatanas. This was also studied in the Board meeting in Bgk (Sunday afternoon). All the Pali experts are there, it will be interesting for you after June when you live there. You could report to us directly then. Jim was so kind to send me the co. and subco. of the sabbasutta, most helpful. Now I can study these. Thai script Pathesa is padesa in Pali. Best wishes from Nina. > > 11171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 10:06am Subject: self, self. op 05-02-2002 16:44 schreef Kom Tukovinit op tikmok@y...: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] >> >> Two questions: Would it be correct to say >> delusion of self and concept >> of self are two different phenomena? > Kom: I would think so. The buddha had no delusion about self, > but he had a concept of self (otherwise, he wouldn't be able > to express it in words). > L: If so, what >> are the distinguishing >> characteristics of delusion of self? I'm not >> talking about self delusion >> (telling oneself a lie), rather a "belief" in a >> self that doesn't >> involve concepts. > > You may be talking about two different realities: moha and > micha-ditthi. > > The delusion (moha) prevents its associated states to see > the realities as they really are (as non-self). From > Cetasikas: > > The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives the > following > definition of moha: > “Delusion” has the characteristic of blindness or opposition > to > knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or the function > of covering > the intrinsic nature of the object; the manifestation of > being opposed > to right practice or causing blindness; the proximate cause > of unwise > attention; and should be regarded as the root of all > immoralities. > > Dhammasangaùi (A Buddhist Manual of Psychological Ethics, > §390) > about moha, here translated as dullness: > What on that occasion is dullness? > The lack of knowledge, of vision, which is there on that > occasion; > the lack of coordination, of judgement, of enlightenment, of > penetration; the inability to comprehend, to grasp > thoroughly; the > inability to compare, to consider, to demonstrate; the > folly, the > childishness, the lack of intelligence; the dullness that is > vagueness, > obfuscation, ignorance, the Flood (ogha) of ignorance, the > Bond (yoga) > of ignorance, the bias of ignorance, the obsession of > ignorance, > the barrier of ignorance; the dullness that is the root of > badness— > this is the dullness that there then is. > > Also from Cetasikas: > > The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 248) gives the > following > definition of wrong view, diììhi: > … It has unwise conviction as characteristic; perversion as > function; > wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to see the > ariyans as > proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest fault. > > I think when moha arises, one is deluded regardless of > whether the object is a reality or a concept. If both > Moha and ditthi arises, one is not only deluded, but one > takes the object of delusion as being true representation of > realities as a conviction. Dear Larry, I just like to join Kom with a remark. Definitions can help to some extent, but it is important to check ourselves when there is a sense of "I, I, I", for example now, when reading or thinking. Acharn Sujin reminded us all the time of this. When seeing, is there an idea of I see? when thinking, is there an idea of I think? We have accumulated the wrong view of self, it is a latent tendency that can condition time and again akusala citta that clings to self. We do not only cling to self with wrong view, but also with conceit and with attachment that is without wrong view. Thus, there is not wrong view the whole day. How many moments a day we find self important, then there is conceit. This reminds me of another point. Christine was discussing lobha, attachment, masquerading as sati, and the way how we can be deluded about this. When someone finds sati so great, so peaceful, one can ask oneself: That is the way to check ourselves at this moment. When we listen to the Dhamma it is a condition for considering different moments, but even when we consider the moments of clinging to self, this considering can also be done with a notion of self. But all this is very natural, it is normal, we have accumulated the notion of self. It is good to know about this. We can learn that it is a nama, mental phenomenon that is conditioned, non-self. Best wishes from Nina. 11172 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 1:02pm Subject: photos - sarah's lucky day --- Sarah wrote: .I think we'll have to gratefully accept > Frank's driving licence > photo as it's such a major concession, even though > the convict one would > have added a little more variety to the album. (You > don't think he 'owns' > a car as well as a computer, do you?;-)) > After checking my inventory, which does include a car, pc (just returned from parinibbana), scanner, dhamma books, 4 requisites of living, and 3 photos - drivers id, passport, and a photo which I just uploaded to dsg. I had forgotten about it, but my friend took it last year and had some extra copies. -fk 11173 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 1:51pm Subject: Re: photos - sarah's lucky day Hi Frank, For one brief moment, I thought you were wearing an Akubra on your head. Of course, that would have meant Ken, Herman, Azita and I (and any lurking members from Oz) would have had to adopt you. This may, or may not have been a good thing! However....on closer look, you seem to have escaped that fate. :-) Great to see you, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > --- Sarah wrote: > .I think we'll have to gratefully accept > > Frank's driving licence > > photo as it's such a major concession, even though > > the convict one would > > have added a little more variety to the album. (You > > don't think he 'owns' > > a car as well as a computer, do you?;-)) > > > > After checking my inventory, which does include a > car, pc (just returned from parinibbana), scanner, > dhamma books, 4 requisites of living, and 3 photos - > drivers id, passport, and a photo which I just > uploaded to dsg. I had forgotten about it, but my > friend took it last year and had some extra copies. > > -fk 11174 From: binh_anson Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 2:28pm Subject: Unicode fonts for romanized Pali-Sanskrit G'day, Unicode fonts for romanized Pali-Sanskrit letters are available at: ==> http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/fonts/ Metta, Binh 11175 From: michael newton Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 5:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka Hello!Nina; Guess I forgot to tell you when I met You and Khun Sujin,and Sarah, that I also knew Bodhi Bhikkhu cause he stayed at Balangoda where I was ordained.I also visited Ven.Nyanaponika there too in Kandy in that lovely forest.LOVE AND PEACE,MICHAEL >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka >Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:06:02 +0100 > >op 05-02-2002 12:04 schreef ranil gunawardena op dearranil@h...: > >And how did you come to Sri Lanka? And it > > is wonderful news to me that nina and sujin were here too. Was Sarah >here > > too? > > > > How about nina and sujin, like to know how they were in Sri Lanka too. > >Dear Ranil, yes, I was twice in Sri Lanka on Dhamma trip with Khun Sujin, >Sarah and Jonothan, and the second time was I believe in 1979 . The first >time the great captain Pereira organized the sessions in the Buddhist >Information Center, Colombo. Ven. Bodhi was there too. And the Nayaka, the >Patriarch, who passed away a few years ago. We went around talking to >different people and groups. I was very impressed by people's interest and >their knowledge of Pali. Their hospitality was extraordinary, we stayed in >their houses and they entertained us every day, cooked wonderful meals. >They >took us to the places that the Buddha is said to have visited. We went to >the place Sangamitta halted with her company, after having taken a shoot of >the Bo tree in India. And we visited Anuradhapura. One night there was a >sea >of white lotusses around the Bodhitree and we went around, following Ven. >Dhammadharo and other monks. The very kind monk who had arranged for the >lotusses passed away a few years ago. We stayed in the house of the judge >who also passed away. My tale has become a marana sati. We also visited the >late ven. Nyanaponika and the late ven. Narada. I wrote Lanka>, this is printed in Thai and English, but I do not know whether it >is >available in Thailand. I also wrote but this may be >later on a website, I do not know. I did not type it on computer. >Best wishes from Nina. 11176 From: Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 1:50pm Subject: Abhidhamma and the Sutta Pitaka - a Discrepancy Hi, all - Let me preface my brief comment by saying that I have a growing respect for the Abhidhamma, a wonderful categorical synopsis of the Buddha's Dhamma. The discrepancy I would like to point out is that in the Abhidhamma, phassa (or contact) is defined to be a universal cetasika, a mental concomitant to every citta (or act of discernment). But at several places in the suttas, phassa is defined to be an event, namely the coming together of sense door, sense object, and the resulting sense consciousness. An event consisting of the coming together of these three does not seem to be the same as a cetasika. The definition of 'phassa' in the suttas seems to simply be a specification of a conventional term. But in the Abhidhamma the definition of 'phassa' is quite different it seems. Can someone explain how one might think about this in a way which harmonizes these different "takes"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11177 From: Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] self, self. Hello Nina and Kom, I was wondering today how to solve this problem of self, or even where to find it. Sometimes it does seem, a little, to be a matter of mistaken identity; but not like the identity of a lamp. There is a quality to personal identity that is "personal". What's that? At other times it seems that the problem is just attachment and aversion. I wonder if maybe identity isn't really the issue, but rather attachment and aversion to identity is the problem. I don't see any identity issues in the paticcasamuppada, for example. Also, in looking for attachment what I find is feeling wearing a conceptual hat. Could either of you say something about the relationship between concept and reality as they manifest in attachment? I had been thinking that concept was the problem and reality was the solution, but now I'm more inclined to think that reality is the problem and concept could be either a help or hindrance in remedying the problem. If it's not possible to untangle these knots, just snip them off. thanks, Larry 11178 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 0:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] self, self. Dear Larry, I am not sure if this would help with the problem that you are interested in solving, but I can definitely add to your discussion! > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:01 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] self, self. > > > Hello Nina and Kom, > > I was wondering today how to solve this problem > of self, or even where > to find it. In truth, in realities as they are, there would be no self to find anywhere. > Sometimes it does seem, a little, to > be a matter of mistaken > identity; but not like the identity of a lamp. > There is a quality to > personal identity that is "personal". What's that? To me, the identification of self, of belonging to self, is personal from the standpoint that it happens constantly and incessantly. We naturally do this whether or not we like it. > > At other times it seems that the problem is just > attachment and > aversion. I wonder if maybe identity isn't really > the issue, but rather > attachment and aversion to identity is the > problem. I don't see any > identity issues in the paticcasamuppada, for example. If we have no moha (like an arahant), then there would never be a problem with identity, even when they think about the idea of self. > Also, in looking for attachment what I find is > feeling wearing a > conceptual hat. Could either of you say something > about the relationship > between concept and reality as they manifest in > attachment? I see a color. I like the color. The color happens to make up my hair. I really like my hair. There are attachments (at different moments) to both reality (color) and concept (hair). The attachment to the color is hardly ever noticeable as they don't appear to recur as much as the attachment to hair. The explanation is that the color, the reality that conditions the attachment, falls away rapidly. When the conditioning realities fall away, the conditioned realities fall away. The concept (the hair), on the other hand, doesn't exist (has no characteristics), doesn't rise, and doesn't fall, and can condition successive series of attachment (non-existing dhamma conditioning existing dhamma) for much longer than the realities themselves can. > > I had been thinking that concept was the problem > and reality was the > solution, but now I'm more inclined to think that > reality is the problem > and concept could be either a help or hindrance > in remedying the > problem. I think this is absolutely true. The buddha can think of the concepts of annihilism and eternalism without any delusion, can we? When we learn the wrong dhamma (concepts that are not representative of the truth), if our wisdom is light, we are likely to be misled for some times. On the other hand, if our wisdom is strong, then there is no problem. Sariputta had Sanjai as the teacher before he listened to V. Asashi, but was he misled that Sanjai was an arahant? No. Why? Accumulation of wisdom (and other paramis) for 1 aeon, 100,000 kappas. Do we have that kind of accumulation? The concept that is representative of the realities can help us a long long way. The wrong concept probably leads us in the bush, or at least beating around the bush, for a long time. kom 11179 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 1:04am Subject: National/group Kamma? Dear All, At work, some of my valued colleagues are Indigenous Australians. It is a matter of history that European settlement of the Australian continent has had disastrous consequences for this gentle People. In conversation with them, the question of why individuals are born in certain circumstances arose (yet again). And the discussion extended to ethnic and national groups......I had always thought that the experiencing of the results of previous intentional actions was an individual thing. "Beings are owners of their actions, heirs of their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Action is what differentiates beings in terms of baseness & excellence." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn135.html But a friend recently wrote to me saying: "In the New Kadampa Tradition, the Tibetan tradition that I follow, it is taught that there is a National/group Karma as well as an individual Karma." Why would different traditions in Buddhism have different understandings of this most important matter? metta, Christine 11180 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Victor --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello, > > No problem, I will try my best to explain how I understand it, but I am > afraid I would just repeat myself. > > I see panna as it actually is thus: "Panna is not mine. Panna I am > not. > Panna is not my self." To my understanding, Victor, only panna can ever see anything as 'not mine' etc. When you say that you see panna as 'not mine' etc, I think you are probably saying something different to this. If what you mean is that you accept the Buddha's teaching that panna and all other realities are not mine etc., that would probably be a kind of thinking about panna, rather than actually seeing it as it is. Or do you mean that it is something other than panna that sees things as they actually are? > Suppose it is panna that sees itself as it actually is, then panna knows > itself as panna. If panna understood panna thus: "Panna is not mine. > Panna I am not. Panna is not my self," panna would run into a > self-denial. > Otherwise, panna would understand thus: "I am panna," and that is > self-view. I still don't see where the self-denial comes in! Panna can see any reality as 'not mine' etc. > Panna is not something or someone that sees or knows or understands. Every dhamma has a function. Panna has the function of seeing dhammas as they are. It is panna that makes possible the seeing of things as they are. Are we any closer to sorting this out? ;-)) Jon 11181 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mindfulness of nama and rupa/Jon Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Regarding this extract, I haven't been studying it particularly, but > thinking it over it occurred to me that one of my difficulties is that I > am trying to identify consciousness by itself. Perhaps this is > unnecessary or even impossible. In meditation nama is bare attention; > this must be a cetasika (consciousness factor) but I'm not sure if it is > one or several. The mahathera seems to be pointing to a "heap" (meaning > several) of consciousness factors, not consciousness (citta) itself. Some people have the idea that they can 'see' any dhamma/reality, such as consciousness, just by attending to it. However, dhammas can only be seen by developed panna (insight), so no amount of effort on our part will bring that achievement (unfortunatley, perhaps!). But by learning more about consciousness and all the other dhammas, initially at an intellectual level and then by more direct experience, we can lay the foundation for awareness and insight to arise. There is however no need to single out one particular dhamma to study or focus upon. That seems to suggest an idea that one dhamma is more worth knowing, or easier to know, than another, or that focusing our attention ('concentrating') on dhammas is a condition for the arising of insight, and I don’t think any of these ideas are found in the texts. > Another confusion is the tendency to mix up the nama/rupa distinction > with the ultimate reality/conventional reality distinction. For example, > in attending to a red hat, the attending is nama, red is rupa, and hat > is conventional reality. It is possible to 'deconstruct' realities as you do here in the red hat example, but we should appreciate that this is just a kind of intellectual exercise. What is more useful, as I think you are suggesting, is to understand exactly what is meant by dhammas/realities, how they differ from concepts, and how different realties can be distinguished from each other. There is no quick or easy way to do this, that I know of, but more reading and discussion of the right kind certainly helps. Just a brief comment on the red hat scenario. Some moments of consciousness experience objects through the sense doors, other moments of consciousness think directly about what has been so experienced and yet other moments of consciousness think more generally about multiple sense-door experiences. It is a vastly complicated series of events that we should not expect to be able to 'unravel'. But little by little, ever so slowly, we can come to understand more about different realities and different moments. Patience and persistence are our allies, desire for results and the idea that we can make it happen the enemy! > Victor's insistence on anicca, anatta, dukkha has caused me to wonder > where that fits in. On the surface this looks like a case of uncovering > the error of conventional reality. Aren't permanence, self, and > happiness conventional realities? If so perhaps ultimate realities are > not plagued by identification with permanence, self, and happiness. According to the Buddha's teaching, all dhammas have impermanence etc as their characteristic. The insight that begins to see realties as they are would also begin to see these characteristics of those realties, to some (limited) degree or another. But again, it's not a matter of thinking we should be trying to discern these characteristics. That's as I understand it, anyway, Larry. I hope some of what I've said make some sense for you. Jon 11182 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Highest Bliss Herman --- egberdina wrote: > Jon, > > Yes, you are correct, I was not referring to nibbana. As an aside, > how does one know whether any state or stateless state that is being > experienced equates to a state that is described in a book? I guess > that if you follow the instructions, you can assume that the outcome > is the same. No guarantee, I'm afraid (like my map reading -- you could end up anywhere). If we think of the original audience as the ones most likely to be able to correctly 'follow the instructions', it becomes apparent that only a relative few have any real chance of experiencing the intended 'outcome'. > All I know is that the more I approach a state of not-thinking, the > more I experience what I call bliss. It is not excitement, in fact > far from it. It is very "quiet". I am extrapolating here, but I > assume that when there is no thinking at all, the state of bliss > would be very fine indeed, as in subtle. I further extrapolate and > assume this would be the same for everybody. My only comment on bliss (of the non-nibbanic kind, as here) is that it cannot be sustained forever. So even if one attains the highest level, sooner or later the state of bliss runs out and akusala kamma stored up from previous times will bring its unpleasant result in the form of experiences that make further development of bliss difficult if not impossible. Also, bliss in and of itself does nothing to eradicate latent defilements, so these also resurface at an appropriate time. > I like this state, and much prefer it to an unconcentrated awareness > of the present moment. I have a close association with a number of > people who are described in medical terms as having Attention Deficit > Hyperactivity Disorder. I believe they may be good candidates for > vipassana insight, because they show no preference at all to anything > in their environment. I do not wish to emulate them at this time. [But your sense of humour is far wickeder than mine, Herman.] Jon 11183 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > In this and your original post, aren't you addressing the issue from a > > point of view that implies the reification of the external object (the > > rock)? Doesn't any reference to an external object, as opposed to the > > rupa being experienced at the sense-door at the moment of contact with > > consciousness involve a reification? > Jon, > I totally agree. That's my problem. I don't understand how the rupa > can be seen > as the separate object of a nama, rather than a nama itself, without > implicating a > 'real object' being apprehended by perception in the sense door. Am I > confused > about what a rupa is? This keeps coming back to haunt me. If the rupa > is a > physical object, it implies a reification. If it is purely a > sensory/mental > object, why isn't it included as one of the namas? Rupas are neither namas nor physical objects. They are simply put, realties that do not experience an object. But I think that trying to understand intellectually what namas are and what rupas are can only proceed so far, because it is all conceptual. If however we are interested in knowing more about the reality of the present moment, by studying the present moment, then namas and rupas may have more meaning. Namas and rupas can only really be understood in the context of the present moment and the momentary experiences through the sense and mind doors. Jon 11184 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 8:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] 'No control' vs the 4 padhanas (was, samma samadhi) Dear Christine & Jonothan, > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] > > > I still find the idea of no control hard to > understand/accept, and > > would be delighted if someone showed me a > loophole .......but, > > despite trying, I can't point to any area of > life where there is > > complete control. Control seems to be one of > those words where it > > is 'all' or 'nothing'. > > Yes, all or nothing is right, in the sense that > anything less than total > control is really no control. > I would love it if you would explain in some more details why "anything less than total control" is really no control (maybe an example would suffice?). I think there were discussions revolving around this topics recently including Pooh. One camp asserts that partial control is possible, and the other says there is no such thing. kom 11185 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 8:51am Subject: RE: another vote for skillful - Re: [dsg] glossing kusala Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > p.s more good news..Kom's photo is on its way to > the album....slowly due > to technical probs;-) Uh... Good news!?!? Thinking about (my) photos reminds me of how the attachment to self (in this case, something quite remotely far away from self [I look like something in the photo, but not exactly...]) is so prevelant. kom 11186 From: Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] National/group Kamma? Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/7/02 4:04:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear All, > > At work, some of my valued colleagues are Indigenous Australians. It > is a matter of history that European settlement of the Australian > continent has had disastrous consequences for this gentle People. In > conversation with them, the question of why individuals are born in > certain circumstances arose (yet again). And the discussion extended > to ethnic and national groups......I had always thought that the > experiencing of the results of previous intentional actions was an > individual thing. > > "Beings are owners of their actions, heirs of their actions, born of > their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions > as their arbitrator. Action is what differentiates beings in terms of > baseness & excellence." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn135.html > > But a friend recently wrote to me saying: > "In the New Kadampa Tradition, the Tibetan tradition that I follow, > it is > taught that there is a National/group Karma as well as an individual > Karma." > > Why would different traditions in Buddhism have different > understandings of this most important matter? > > metta, > Christine > =============================== It's my understanding as well that kamma and kamma vipaka are an individual matter. However, beings with similar kamma are likely to have similar vipaka, including the realm and conditions of rebirth. One additional matter: Not all things that happen to beings are the fruition of those beings' kamma. Other beings can initiate willful action against beings which have consequences for those beings. Harm CAN be done to innocent beings. That would constitute quite serious kamma for the perpetrators. All things that happen to sentient beings happen, directly or indirectly, as the result of kamma, of volitional action, but not always as a result of their *own* action. I think, for example, that it is a gross oversimplification (and slander) to claim that the victims of the WTC atrocity, or of a famine in a nation, or of the holocaust were merely reaping what they had sown. (Some, of course, may have - but this is untraceable.) This is how I see the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11187 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 0:48pm Subject: Re: National/group Kamma? Hello Howard, abd All, Thanks, that was first suggestion I made to my friend also. Though if it is a tenet of a particular school of Buddhism, they would surely have considered that also. However, at the same time as the conversation at work occurred, I recalled reading (in Abhidhamma in Daily Life about akusala and kusala and the importance of not taking one for the other) one sentence which caught my attention - "when we hear unpleasant words, the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing-consciousness) is akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we performed ourselves." Perhaps I am not understanding the sense of this, but there seems to be no question there as to whether the unpleasant sounds are the result of past intentional actions of our own (or is it the moment, that is? not what appears in the moment?). If anything is not the result of past actions, how can one tell what is? Somehow feel this relates to the 'no control' question as well...... I almost feel I shouldn't post this, and that I've missed a very basic point.....but can't think of any other way to find out. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 2/7/02 4:04:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > Dear All, > > > > At work, some of my valued colleagues are Indigenous Australians. It > > is a matter of history that European settlement of the Australian > > continent has had disastrous consequences for this gentle People. In > > conversation with them, the question of why individuals are born in > > certain circumstances arose (yet again). And the discussion extended > > to ethnic and national groups......I had always thought that the > > experiencing of the results of previous intentional actions was an > > individual thing. > > > > "Beings are owners of their actions, heirs of their actions, born of > > their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions > > as their arbitrator. Action is what differentiates beings in terms of > > baseness & excellence." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn135.html > > > > But a friend recently wrote to me saying: > > "In the New Kadampa Tradition, the Tibetan tradition that I follow, > > it is > > taught that there is a National/group Karma as well as an individual > > Karma." > > > > Why would different traditions in Buddhism have different > > understandings of this most important matter? > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > =============================== > It's my understanding as well that kamma and kamma vipaka are an > individual matter. However, beings with similar kamma are likely to have > similar vipaka, including the realm and conditions of rebirth. > One additional matter: Not all things that happen to beings are the > fruition of those beings' kamma. Other beings can initiate willful action > against beings which have consequences for those beings. Harm CAN be done to > innocent beings. That would constitute quite serious kamma for the > perpetrators. All things that happen to sentient beings happen, directly or > indirectly, as the result of kamma, of volitional action, but not always as a > result of their *own* action. I think, for example, that it is a gross > oversimplification (and slander) to claim that the victims of the WTC > atrocity, or of a famine in a nation, or of the holocaust were merely reaping > what they had sown. (Some, of course, may have - but this is untraceable.) > This is how I see the matter. > > With metta, > Howard 11188 From: Victor Yu Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 1:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Hello Jon, Jon, thank you for taking the time to reply and thank you for sharing your view. Regards, Victor > Victor > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello, > > > > No problem, I will try my best to explain how I understand it, but I am > > afraid I would just repeat myself. > > > > I see panna as it actually is thus: "Panna is not mine. Panna I am > > not. > > Panna is not my self." > > To my understanding, Victor, only panna can ever see anything as 'not > mine' etc. When you say that you see panna as 'not mine' etc, I think you > are probably saying something different to this. If what you mean is that > you accept the Buddha's teaching that panna and all other realities are > not mine etc., that would probably be a kind of thinking about panna, > rather than actually seeing it as it is. Or do you mean that it is > something other than panna that sees things as they actually are? > > > Suppose it is panna that sees itself as it actually is, then panna knows > > itself as panna. If panna understood panna thus: "Panna is not mine. > > Panna I am not. Panna is not my self," panna would run into a > > self-denial. > > Otherwise, panna would understand thus: "I am panna," and that is > > self-view. > > I still don't see where the self-denial comes in! Panna can see any > reality as 'not mine' etc. > > > Panna is not something or someone that sees or knows or understands. > > Every dhamma has a function. Panna has the function of seeing dhammas as > they are. It is panna that makes possible the seeing of things as they > are. > > Are we any closer to sorting this out? ;-)) > > Jon 11189 From: Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 8:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/7/02 3:51:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Howard, abd All, > > Thanks, that was first suggestion I made to my friend also. Though > if it is a tenet of a particular school of Buddhism, they would > surely have considered that also. > However, at the same time as the conversation at work occurred, I > recalled reading (in Abhidhamma in Daily Life about akusala and > kusala and the importance of not taking one for the other) one > sentence which caught my attention - "when we hear unpleasant words, > the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing-consciousness) is > akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we performed > ourselves." Perhaps I am not understanding the sense of this, but > there seems to be no question there as to whether the unpleasant > sounds are the result of past intentional actions of our own (or is > it the moment, that is? not what appears in the moment?). > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no doubt in my mind that what is being said there is that every unpleasant experience is the result of one's own kamma. But I do not buy that at all, nor do I believe that the Buddha did. In fact, in at least one sutta, the Buddha explicitly denied that, characterizing it as wrong view, a view of kammic determinism. (I regret that I don't have a reference for you. I hope that someone else can come up with it. In which case, I will bookmark it for when this issue arises again. I look forward to seing the reference. (I also have every expectation of seeing vehement disagreement with me on this issue! ;-)) What I can do right now is give an excerpt somewhat relevant to this (for example, with regard to the famine scenario I referred to) from Ven Narada's Buddhism in a Nutshell, well respected by Theravadins. The excerpt follows: ********************************** According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (Niyamas) which operate in the physical and mental realms: > i. Kamma Niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable > acts produce corresponding good and bad results. ii. Utu Niyama, physical > (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. iii. Bija > Niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); e.g., rice > produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey etc. The > scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins > may be ascribed to this order. iv. Citta Niyama, order of mind or psychic > law, e.g., processes of consciousness (Citta vithi), power of mind etc. v. > Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at > the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, gravitation, etc. Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Kamma is, therefore, only one of the five orders that prevail in the universe . ******************************************** > If anything is not the result of past actions, how can one tell what > is? ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say that it is generally not knowable to a worldling whether or how some event is one's kammic fruit. Sometimes it clearly is - one angrily punches someone and breaks one's little finger (instant and obvious kamma vipaka), but, as the Buddha said, the working out of kamma is far too complex for a worldling to grasp, and working too hard to do so can drive one nuts! (No relation to Ven Narada's Nutshell!) ----------------------------------------------------------- > Somehow feel this relates to the 'no control' question as > well...... > I almost feel I shouldn't post this, and that I've missed a very > basic point.....but can't think of any other way to find out. > > metta, > Christine > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11190 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 2:12pm Subject: Buddhadasa and no rebirth Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 1 Hi Robert, I read one of his books, thought it was pretty good except I was puzzled about the no rebirth thing. I'm not sure what kind of alternative he proposes to avoid eternalism and nihilism. I suspect it would fall into the nihilism side. His claim of rebirth being eternalistic doesn't make any kind of sense. Ultimately, rebirth for most of us is an unproven hypothesis. Anyone can offer an opinion, and I don't care if they have a PHD, Geshe, Ajahn, or whatever next to their name. Just another unproven opinion. -fk --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- This is from a discussion I had on d-l: > I picked up a copy of Paticcasamuppada - Practical > Dependent Origination by Ven. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (of > Thailand)after > some prior discussions about it. In these > discussions it > was suggested that the Buddha did not teach > rebirth and that this was a wrong idea that had come > into the teachings. This book was cited as a source > and guide. I had read the book many years ago and > have > now reread it. > I think it has many useful points and I certainly > appreciate any book on this most profound teaching > of > Paticcasamuppada. However, I remain convinced that > the > Buddha taught rebirth and that it is indeed a > necessary corrollary of anatta and conditionality. > > I'd like to begin with these comments from the > venerable Buddhadasa's book. He writes that p6 > "therefore teaching Paticcasamupada in such a way > that > there is a self persisting over a series of lives is > contrary to the principle of dependent origination." > This is, of course, evident to anyone who has had > even > a cursory look at the Tipitaka; anatta is really the > bedrock of Dhamma. > However, in the next sentence he says that > "dependent > origination is on no way concerned with morality > which > must depend upon a theory of Eternalism". This I > don't > follow. Kamma is simply a conditioned phenomenon - > and > it is just natural law that certain types of action > lead to certain results. We can think of this as a > moral law without evoking any self. > In the following paragraph p.6 he says that an > incorrectly explained theory has been taught for a > thousand years. On p8 he explains with regard to > this > that the "during the time the commentaries were > composed there arose a widespread tendency to > explain > matters of ultimate truths in terms of the > Eternalist > theory." He lays the blame for all this on > Buddhaghosa (ancient > composer of the Visuddhimagga and many important > commentaries) > p8."the same person who collected all the > commentaries > together so that total blind acceptance..will allow > only one voice to be heard." > > He is not sure how this wrongview arose but he > speculates that it either happened because of lack > of > insight OR he thinks that it was a deliberate plot > to > destroy Buddhism for Brahmins who believed in atta > (self)see page 51-52. He notes that there is no > written evidence before the time of the > Visuddhimagga > [written by Buddhaghosa]where Paticcasamupada was > explained wrongly. And that at the time of the third > council (long before Buddhaghosa ) if one had "said > there was a self that spun around in the cycle of > birth and death and rebirth as in the case of > Bhikkhu > Sati he was held to be holding wrong views in the > sense of Eternalism and was made to leave the order" > . > He equates such wrong views with the Visuddhimagga. > > He does kindly note that Buddhaghosa p60 "is a man > of > great knowledge." He then says ."BUT I don't agree > with him at all regarding Dependent Origination > because he spoke of it in terms of a soul and so it > became Brahministic." And he carries on (p63) to > note > that he "is not going to defile of defame or villify > Buddhaghosa..I only want to make some observations. > Buddhaghosa was born a Brahmin..and he completed a > study of the three vedas like any other Brahmin. His > spirit was that of a Brahmin..if he later came to > explain the Buddhist theory of Dependent Origination > as a form of Brahminism it is most reasonable to > supsect that he was careless and forgetful so that > he > cannot be considered to be an Arahat."" > > So to sum up venerable Buddhadasa is suggesting that > Buddhaghosa > taught an Eternalistic (self, atta) version of the > Paticcasamuppada. Is that true? I think it is best > to > let the ancient texts speak for themselves. > From the relevant section of the Visuddhimagga > Chapter > XV11 Dependent origination > 113 "but how does a man who is confused about these > things perform these three kinds of formations? > Firstly, when he is confused about death, instead of > taking death thus 'death in every case is break up > of > aggregates(khandas, not-self)' he figures that it is > lasting being's transmigration to another > incarnation > and so on". > 115 "when he is confused about the round of > rebirths, > instead of taking the round of rebirths as pictured > thus: 'an endless chain of aggregates(khandas) of > elements(dhatus) bases(ayatanas) that carries on > unbrokenly is what is called 'the round or rebirths' > he figures that it is a lasting being that goes from > this world to another world, that comes from another > world to this world"endquote > 117"when he is cofused about independently-arisen > states, instead of taking the occurence of > formations > to be due to ignorance etc., he figures that it is a > self that knows or does not know, that acts and > causes > action..." > 161 "a mere state that has got its conditions ushers > in the ensuing existence; While it does not migrate > from the past, with no cause in the past it is not. > > So a mere material and immaterial state, arisen when > it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, > saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is > not > a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither > transmigrated from the past nor yet is it manifested > here without cause from that"....... " > 273 "Becomings wheel reveals no known beginning; no > maker, no experiencer there; Void with a twelvefold > voidness,"" > 313 "one who sees this rightly abandons the self > view > by understanding the absence of a maker. One who > sees > it wrongly clings to the moral -inefficacy of action > view because he does not perceive that the causative > function of ignorance etc us established as a law.." > 314 "[and so] let a wise man with mindfulness so > practice that he may begin to find a footing in the > deeps of the dependent origination" > > Now another point about the book. > On page 62 Venerable Buddhadasa says that by > explaining Paticcasamuppada as happening over > several > lives and suggesting that "kamma in this life gives > rise to results in some far off future life it as if > there are no kammic results(vipaka) at all which we > receive in the birth in which the deed was > done.....to > suggest that defilements and kamma from a past life > become effective in this, a later life, is > impossible"" > > Firstly, I'd like to say that truly there is no one > who receives results but that results arise by > conditions (just to be pedantic). From the > Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for > mere > arising of fruit (vipaka);" > Secondly he doesn't acknowledge that the > commentaries > (and tipitaka) say that the results of > kamma can indeed arise in this life,..(or at the > time > of death or in future lives). They say it is pretty > much unpredictable (except to the Buddha) when the > results will arise because of the many other > conditions that support or impede kamma. Here is a > quote from the Tipitaka: > " Threefold, however, is the fruit of karma: > ripening > during the life-time (dittha-dhamma-vedaníya-kamma), > ripening in the next birth > (upapajja-vedaníya-kamma), > ripening in later births (aparápariya-vedaníya > kamma) > ...." (A.VI, 63). > > I think this is enough for one post. I want to add > some more later about how the Paticcasamupada is a > very practical teaching here and now - as shown by > the > Visuddhimagga. > > robert . > === message truncated === 11191 From: Victor Yu Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 2:12pm Subject: Right Effort/samma vayamo Hello all, I find the following passage from Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta An Analysis of the Path Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu a good reminder. "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." Regards, Victor 11192 From: Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and the Sutta Pitaka - a Discrepancy cc:Nina <<<< Let me preface my brief comment by saying that I have a growing respect for the Abhidhamma, a wonderful categorical synopsis of the Buddha's Dhamma. The discrepancy I would like to point out is that in the Abhidhamma, phassa (or contact) is defined to be a universal cetasika, a mental concomitant to every citta (or act of discernment). But at several places in the suttas, phassa is defined to be an event, namely the coming together of sense door, sense object, and the resulting sense consciousness. An event consisting of the coming together of these three does not seem to be the same as a cetasika. The definition of 'phassa' in the suttas seems to simply be a specification of a conventional term. But in the Abhidhamma the definition of 'phassa' is quite different it seems. Can someone explain how one might think about this in a way which harmonizes these different "takes"? >>>>>> Dear Howard, Nina and all, Let me put in my 2 cents observation. Have to inform you my frame of reference first: I have read some small parts of each suttanta and abhidhamma. So what I about to say is from what I have read so far. I am no expert in tipitaka. As I mentioned earlier that I myself feel that the two keep referring to the same things. To me both suttanta and abhidhamma are very conventional or conceptual in nature. The same things, as I understand, they refer to is reality (some call it dhamma, some call in paramatthadhamma. Name is just a name), what is reality, what is not real and its nature, anicca, dukkha and anatta. They both break down every mental process and physical phenomena into smallest single unit but at the same time showing relationship conditions and dependent origination of that unit. Another very important aspect in both is the time and chronology reference. When things are broken down in a smallest unit also in mutual, interdependent manner, they also do not last long. Now I am thinking of Ven.Sariputta. Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer and he became a sotapanna after finishing hearing this verse. << Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata. >> This is from Vinayapitaka-mahavagga. I thought how deep is this short verse. I can read this repeatedly over and over. I can understand every single word, conceptually and conventionally, in it. I wonder what did Ven.Sariputta see and understand at that moment. I agree with you that there are some differences in suttanta and abhidhamma, also in abhidhamma and its later commentaries. About phassa, I did not see the difference of this in suttanta and abhidhamma. In Dhammasagani, abhidhamma book I. Phenomena were classified, sliced and disintegrated. The same thing in Vibhanga, book II. In abhidhamma phassa was not directly categorized as universal cetasika but no matter how citta sliced or classified phassa is always there. In book I, phassa was also called phassahara (phassa as a nutrient). Without phassa, mental processes cannot arise. Phassa is kind of a gateway. In suttanta esp. in salayatana-vagga, phassa is a leading cause of feeling and then mental act. To me, I feel like they talk about the same thing in different manner. Phassa is a gateway or leading factor for processes of citta and other cetasika, in coordinating a meeting between sense door, object and sense conscious. The followings are some things I noted. 1) Bhavanga citta is not mentioned in suttanta but mentioned briefly in abhidhamma and much more in Com. 2) Level of jhana this is well aware that there are 4 fold in suttanta and 5 fold in abhidhamma. 3) Hadaya-vatthu, nothing mentioned about this even in abhidhamma but in Atthasalini, Com. to abhidhamma book I, mentioned 3 portions of the body and hatayavatthu said to be in the middle portion. 4) Nibbana is pretty much referred to in negated manner. There is no direct explanation of nibbana. 5) Writing style is different in suttanta-abhidhamma and commentaries. Repetition, slightly different slicing style is used in both suttanta and abhidhamma, more so in abhidhamma. I guess that is the way for oral transmission. The Com. which was written much later or somewhat more concise and somewhat more categorized. I think that is possible because of writing technology. I found that in Com. some new terms were introduced and things were organized somewhat differently. Should be some more. Let me close with what is, I think, vital to know. I like Malunkayaputta a lot. A man was wounded and bleeding by arrows but he refused anybody to help him if he could not know who shot the arrow, what he looked like, where was he from, what kind of the bow the arrow was shot from, what the arrow made from. He would soon die without getting any help or answers. When I read sutta or abhidhamma, it causes me some doubts. I remind myself the sutta. Reality here and now is vital and critical; nama-rupa, satipathana. I probably will be able or unable to know which one was written first suttanta or abhidhamma or which book in abhidhamma was written first. Reading the whole tipitaka without knowing reality here and now is also pretty much studying in a conceptual manner. So in summary I think both suttanata and abhidhamma is written in a conceptual or conventional manner. I think they are pointing to the same thing, dhamma here and now. Just my opinion. Best wishes and hope you enjoy studying abhidhamma. Num PS. Nina, may I ask for your input about this topic? Thanks for the books you recommended, I got some of them and still waiting for some more from the PTS. I will talk with my aunt Sunday morning and will ask her about what book she is helping someone translating. Appreciate. Num 11193 From: Lucy Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Dear Howard, Christine I think this is the reference Howard mentioned: Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21 Moliyasivaka Sutta To Sivaka Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-021.html This is also worth a read with reference to determinism: Samyutta Nikaya XLII.8 Sankha Sutta The Conch Trumpet http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-008.html Best wishes Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: > There is no doubt in my mind that what is being said there is that > every unpleasant experience is the result of one's own kamma. But I do not > buy that at all, nor do I believe that the Buddha did. In fact, in at least > one sutta, the Buddha explicitly denied that, characterizing it as wrong > view, a view of kammic determinism. (I regret that I don't have a reference > for you. I hope that someone else can come up with it. In which case, I will > bookmark it for when this issue arises again. I look forward to seing the > reference. (I also have every expectation of seeing vehement disagreement > with me on this issue! ;-)) 11194 From: Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hi again, Christine - Here is a reference for you. In his wonderful book Buddhadhamma, the renowned Thai scholar-monk, Phra Prayudh Payutto discusses this issue. He lists as the first of what the Buddha called "three heretical doctrines" the doctrine of "Pubbekatahetuvaada (past-action determinism) - believing that all sukha and dukkha are related to past kamma (or pubbekatavaada, for short)" Going into further detail on this, he quotes the Buddha from Dhammapada 276 as follows: "Truly, Sivaka, some sensations arise having goodness as their place of origin ... some arise from the fluctuation of the seasons ... some arise from a lack of consistent behavior ... some arise from being the victim of bad deeds ... some arise from the fruits of kamma....If any recluses and brahmins assert or believe that 'People have sensations - be they sukha or dukkha, non-sukha or non-dukkha - due to past kamma,' ... I can say that this is the fault of those recluses and brahmins themselves." I think this is rather clear, don't you? In particular, one can see the connection between the Buddha's statement that "some arise from being the victim of bad deeds" and my statement in my last post on this subject to the effect that "Other beings can initiate willful action against beings which have consequences for those beings. Harm CAN be done to innocent beings." I have based my position on what the Buddha said, not only on my own deductions. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/7/02 4:52:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 2/7/02 3:51:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > Hello Howard, abd All, > > > > Thanks, that was first suggestion I made to my friend also. Though > > if it is a tenet of a particular school of Buddhism, they would > > surely have considered that also. > > However, at the same time as the conversation at work occurred, I > > recalled reading (in Abhidhamma in Daily Life about akusala and > > kusala and the importance of not taking one for the other) one > > sentence which caught my attention - "when we hear unpleasant words, > > the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing-consciousness) is > > akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we performed > > ourselves." Perhaps I am not understanding the sense of this, but > > there seems to be no question there as to whether the unpleasant > > sounds are the result of past intentional actions of our own (or is > > it the moment, that is? not what appears in the moment?). > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is no doubt in my mind that what is being said there is that > every unpleasant experience is the result of one's own kamma. But I do not > buy that at all, nor do I believe that the Buddha did. In fact, in at least > > one sutta, the Buddha explicitly denied that, characterizing it as wrong > view, a view of kammic determinism. (I regret that I don't have a reference > > for you. I hope that someone else can come up with it. In which case, I > will > bookmark it for when this issue arises again. I look forward to seing the > reference. (I also have every expectation of seeing vehement disagreement > with me on this issue! ;-)) > What I can do right now is give an excerpt somewhat relevant to this > > (for example, with regard to the famine scenario I referred to) from Ven > Narada's Buddhism in a Nutshell, well respected by Theravadins. The excerpt > > follows: > ********************************** > According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (Niyamas) which > operate in the physical and mental realms: > > i. Kamma Niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable > > > acts produce corresponding good and bad results. ii. Utu Niyama, physical > > > (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. iii. Bija > > > Niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); e.g., rice > > produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey etc. The > > scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins > > > may be ascribed to this order. iv. Citta Niyama, order of mind or psychic > > > law, e.g., processes of consciousness (Citta vithi), power of mind etc. > v. > > Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring > at > > the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, gravitation, etc. > Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these > all-embracing > five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Kamma is, therefore, > > only one of the five orders that prevail in the universe > . > ******************************************** > > > If anything is not the result of past actions, how can one tell what > > is? > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would say that it is generally not knowable to a worldling whether > > or how some event is one's kammic fruit. Sometimes it clearly is - one > angrily punches someone and breaks one's little finger (instant and obvious > > kamma vipaka), but, as the Buddha said, the working out of kamma is far too > > complex for a worldling to grasp, and working too hard to do so can drive > one > nuts! (No relation to Ven Narada's Nutshell!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Somehow feel this relates to the 'no control' question as > > well...... > > I almost feel I shouldn't post this, and that I've missed a very > > basic point.....but can't think of any other way to find out. > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11195 From: Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hi, Lucy (and Christine) - Excellent! Thank you. This is exactly what I was after. BTW, there are some odd commonalities between the sutta you copy here and the piece of writing (supposedly from the Dhammapada) quoted by Ven Payutto, and which I posted in my last msg on this topic. They are not identical, but they are certainly close. (Of course this does happen frequently, with similar language occurring in different suttas.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/7/02 6:36:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, selene@c... writes: > Dear Howard, Christine > > I think this is the reference Howard mentioned: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21 > Moliyasivaka Sutta > To Sivaka > > Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at > the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by > name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and > friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: > "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this > doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or > neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, > what does the revered Gotama say about this?" > > "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of > feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it > is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of > (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by > injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there > arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; > also in the world it is accepted as true. > > "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that > 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or > neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then > they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by > the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these > ascetics and brahmans." > > When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is > excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama > regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as > long as life lasts." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-021.html > > This is also worth a read with reference to determinism: > > Samyutta Nikaya XLII.8 > Sankha Sutta > The Conch Trumpet > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-008.html > > Best wishes > > Lucy > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11196 From: Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 4:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] self, self. Thanks Kom, This is very interesting. I'm going to ponder on this some more, especially the difference between attachment to realities and attachment to concepts. But I'm still not clear on what attachment itself is. It seems a little like pleasant feeling with a magnetic charge; I'm not sure if this charge is concept or something else. I can't see this very clearly; does it make sense to you? Larry 11197 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 6:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Dear Howard and Lucy, Thanks for the references and thoughts.... I don't know about vehement disagreement Howard....can one have vehement confusion? :-) Will do some reading and reflecting, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 2/7/02 3:51:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > Hello Howard, abd All, > > > > Thanks, that was first suggestion I made to my friend also. Though > > if it is a tenet of a particular school of Buddhism, they would > > surely have considered that also. > > However, at the same time as the conversation at work occurred, I > > recalled reading (in Abhidhamma in Daily Life about akusala and > > kusala and the importance of not taking one for the other) one > > sentence which caught my attention - "when we hear unpleasant words, > > the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing-consciousness) is > > akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we performed > > ourselves." Perhaps I am not understanding the sense of this, but > > there seems to be no question there as to whether the unpleasant > > sounds are the result of past intentional actions of our own (or is > > it the moment, that is? not what appears in the moment?). > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is no doubt in my mind that what is being said there is that > every unpleasant experience is the result of one's own kamma. But I do not > buy that at all, nor do I believe that the Buddha did. In fact, in at least > one sutta, the Buddha explicitly denied that, characterizing it as wrong > view, a view of kammic determinism. (I regret that I don't have a reference > for you. I hope that someone else can come up with it. In which case, I will > bookmark it for when this issue arises again. I look forward to seing the > reference. (I also have every expectation of seeing vehement disagreement > with me on this issue! ;-)) > What I can do right now is give an excerpt somewhat relevant to this > (for example, with regard to the famine scenario I referred to) from Ven > Narada's Buddhism in a Nutshell, well respected by Theravadins. The excerpt > follows: > ********************************** > According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (Niyamas) which > operate in the physical and mental realms: > > i. Kamma Niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable > > acts produce corresponding good and bad results. ii. Utu Niyama, physical > > (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. iii. Bija > > Niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); e.g., rice > > produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey etc. The > > scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins > > may be ascribed to this order. iv. Citta Niyama, order of mind or psychic > > law, e.g., processes of consciousness (Citta vithi), power of mind etc. v. > > Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at > > the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, gravitation, etc. > Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all- embracing > five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Kamma is, therefore, > only one of the five orders that prevail in the universe > . > ******************************************** > > > If anything is not the result of past actions, how can one tell what > > is? > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would say that it is generally not knowable to a worldling whether > or how some event is one's kammic fruit. Sometimes it clearly is - one > angrily punches someone and breaks one's little finger (instant and obvious > kamma vipaka), but, as the Buddha said, the working out of kamma is far too > complex for a worldling to grasp, and working too hard to do so can drive one > nuts! (No relation to Ven Narada's Nutshell!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Somehow feel this relates to the 'no control' question as > > well...... > > I almost feel I shouldn't post this, and that I've missed a very > > basic point.....but can't think of any other way to find out. > > > > metta, > > Christine 11198 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 7:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? ---Dear Howard, You write that with regard to the statement in Abhidhamma in daily life that ""when we hear unpleasant words, > > the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing-consciousness) is > > akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we performed > > ourselves."" that ""There is no doubt in my mind that what is being said there is that > every unpleasant experience is the result of one's own kamma. But I do not > buy that at all, nor do I believe that the Buddha did. In fact, in at least > one sutta, the Buddha explicitly denied that, characterizing it as wrong > view, a view of kammic determinism""" I think this has been discussed before. Perhaps if we take note that in the Abhidhamma - as has been explained in Abhidhamma in Daily life- there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences an object such as sound only one moment is vipaka, result. The rest are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a flash and then many more moments that are not vipaka. This is not theory and can be seen by developed insight to whatever degree is appropriate. Also even the vipaka citta has to have other conditions to support it. It is never the only condition. If there were not supporting conditions such as a famine in the countryside then the vipaka to condition moments of painful feeling through the bodysense (hunger) may not have had the chance to arise. And then not all in the country will experience the hardship of famine becase there are always a few who have strong supporting kamma that means they do not go without. Kamma can give results hundreds of thousands of aeons in the future. For example, perhaps we steal something now , but do not get caught and enjoy our ill-gotten gains (because of good supporting kamma from the past) but in the future if there are sufficient other conditions the fruit of this act will arise. From the Dhammapada IX:11 NOBODY IS EXEMPT FROM THE EFFECTS OF EVIL KAMMA Na antalikkhe na samudda majjhe - na pabbatanam vivaram pavissa Na vijjati so jagatippadeso - yatthatthito munceyya papakamma. Not in the sky, nor in mid-ocean, nor in a mountain cave, is found that place on earth where abiding, one may escape from (the consequences of) one's evil deed. IX:11 Nobody can escape from the effects of evil kamma A group of bhikkhus were on their way to see the Buddha and they stopped at a village on the way. Some people were cooking alms food for them when one of the houses caught fire and a ring of fire flew up into the air. At that moment, a crow came flying, got caught in the ring of fire and dropped dead. The bhikkhus seeing the dead crow, observed that only the Buddha would be able to explain for what evil deed this crow had to die in this manner. After taking alms food they continued on their journey. Another group of bhikkhus were travelling in a boat; they too were on their way to see the Buddha. When they were in the middle of the ocean the boat could not be moved. So, lots were drawn to find out who the unlucky one was; three times the lot fell on the wife of the skipper. Then the skipper said sorrowfully, 'Many people should not die on account of this unlucky woman. Tie a pot of sand to her neck and throw her into the sea so that I will not see her.' The woman was thrown into the sea as instructed by the skipper so that the ship could move on. On arrival at their destination, the bhikkhus disembarked and continued on their way to the Buddha. They also intended to ask the Buddha due to what evil kamma the unfortunate woman was thrown overboard. A third group of bhikkhus were also on their way to see the Buddha. On the way, they enquired at a monastery whether there was any suitable place for them to take shelter for the night in the neighbourhood. They were directed to a cave, and there they spent the night, but in the middle of the night, a large boulder slipped off from above and effectively closed the entrance. In the morning the bhikkhus from the nearby monastery coming to the cave saw what had happened and they went to seek help from the village. With the help of those people they tried to move the boulder, but it was of no avail. Thus, the bhikkhus were trapped in the cave without food or water for a few days. On the seventh day, the boulder miraculously moved by itself, and the bhikkhus came out and continued their journey to the Buddha. They too intended to ask the Buddha due to what previous evil deed they were thus shut up for a few days in a cave. The three groups of bhikkhus met on the way and together they went to the Buddha. Each group related what they had seen or experienced on their journeys. The Buddha's answer to the first group: 'Bhikkhus, once there was a farmer who had an ox. The ox was very lazy and also very stubborn. It could not be coaxed to do any work, it would just lie down chewing the cud or else go to sleep. The farmer lost his temper many times on account of this lazy animal. So, in anger, he tied a straw rope round the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. On account of this evil deed the farmer has suffered for a long time and in serving out the remaining part of the bad kamma, he has been burnt to death (as a crow)in the last few previous existences.' The Buddha's answer to the second group: 'Bhikkhus, once there was a woman who had a dog. Whatever she did and wherever she went the dog always followed her.* As a result some young boys would poke fun at her. She was very angry and felt so ashamed that she planned to kill the dog. She filled a pot with sand, tied it round the neck of the dog and threw it into the water; and the dog was drowned. On account of this evil deed that woman had suffered for a long time and in serving the remaining part of the bad effect, she had been thrown into the water to be drowned.' The Buddha's answer to the third group: 'Bhikkhus, once, seven cowherds saw an iguana going into a mound and for fun, they closed all the outlets of the mound. After closing the outlets they went away, completely forgetting the iguana that was trapped in the mound. Only after seven days, they remembered what they had done and hurriedly returned to the scene of their mischief and let out the iguana. On account of this evil deed, you seven had been imprisoned together for seven days without any food.' Then, a bhikkhu remarked, 'O indeed! There is no escape from evil consequences for one who has done evil, even if he were in the sky, or in the ocean, or in a cave'. The Buddha replied, 'Yes, bhikkhu, you are right.; even in the sky or anywhere else, there is no place which is beyond the reach of the consequences of evil.' *This dog, in one of his previous existences, had been the woman's husband. In samsasa (which has no conceivable beginning) there is no one who has not at some time or other been the relative of somebody else. Because of his strong and intense affection for the woman, the dog simply could not leave his mistress. That is why the Buddha says there is no grip like affection.endquote best wishes robert 11199 From: Michael Newton Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Winnie the Pooh (was Re: samma samadhi) Hello!Sumane; Your also from Sri Lanka,like Ranil is,who also is a member of the dhamma study group.I lived in Sri Lanka as a novice monk in the mid-70's.Was ordained by the Ven.Balangoda Ananda Maitreya,who gently passed in Balangoda a few years ago in Balangoda.Wow!In those days,I wouldn't have dreamed I'd be back in California now as a householder in front of this computer terminal sending these messages around the world via Internet. Zip-there is it goes-from California to Sri Lanka. Met members Khun Sujin,Nina,and Sarah at the Buddhist Information Center in colombo in 1976.Amazing!this world wide web.Nice to connect.YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHEAL-PS-Intersting sharing of toilet wisdom peace you wrote here,Sumane. --- "Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Ratnasuriya)" wrote: > Dear All, > Contributing after a long lapse, with what I can. > Fictitious all right, but the idea of reading in the > toilet, better not be propagated unless with a > course of exercises to stimulate the rectal veins > (Yoga) & facilitate blood circulation. Half a minute > for the 'go' & another one & a half to clean-up > would/should not allow more than a glance at > toiletry ads on packaging etc.(meaning nothing > brought from outside to read) > Health problems, especially painful ones are > deterrent at meditation, primarily & at all other > activity, mental & physical. > Therefore best avoided, when possible. > A lot of roughage & a lot of water ( and those > controls) help leave the seat in 2 minutes! > Thank you all for the many concept analyses received > by me, a born Buddhist. > With Mettha, > Sumane Rathnasuriya > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > --- egberdina wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > > > > > I hope ............. > > > > > > Winnie the Pooh is able to: > > > > > > 1 Defer for a variable but limited time the > moment of his evacuation > > > 2 Because of 1 above he is able to pick, to an > extent, the location > > > where this event will take place, and which > commentary he will take > > > with him to read. > > > 3 Because Winnie is able to control, to a > certain extent, which foods > > > and liquids he ingests, he is able to control, > to a certain extent, > > > the consistency and quantity of what comes out. 11200 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Dear Chris, Howard, Ranil, Rob K & friends, By way of a diversion, let me add my own daily life experience this morning and try to make it relevant to 9-11, Holocaust, Sri Lanka’s plight and indigenous Australians later. I found out last night (by email) that a client is considering not paying quite a large fee due to me. I went to bed ‘obsessed’ and worried about this and was unable to relax or even read posts . This morning I phoned the client, hoping to sort the matter out, but in spite of best intentions, somewhat lost my ‘cool’ and probably reduced the chance of repayment further;-( It may seem (and of course I’d like to kid myself that this is so) that the problem has been caused entirely by the naughty client. Of course, as Howard says, conditions are extremely complex and if the client hadn’t sent the email and had behaved properly, there wouldn’t have been the same set of unpleasant experiences on my part. However, what unpleasant experiences were there anyway? Last night I read the email. I saw visible object only. Immeditately there were stories and proliferations and plenty of dosa and also mana (‘how dare he treat me like this’ and so on). What was the real problem, if not the dosa, mana and other kilesa arising? This morning when I spoke to him for 10mins only, I really didn’t even hear anything very unpleasant at all. He didn’t raise his voice or even speak impolitely. Again the problem was the thinking and proliferating about his bad motives and actions, the taking ‘me’ as being so very important and the clinging to this version of events with so very little awareness of any realities. ***** As Rob K recently quoted from the Vism (in his post about paticcasamuppada): > 117"when he is cofused about independently-arisen > states, instead of taking the occurence of formations > to be due to ignorance etc., he figures that it is a > self that knows or does not know, that acts and causes > action..." As Rob adds: I'd like to say that truly there is no one > who receives results but that results arise by > conditions (just to be pedantic). From the > Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere > arising of fruit (vipaka);" ***** By understanding more about different phenomena now, we’ll undersatand more about how momentary vipaka (result of kamma) is and how it is in fact not the vipaka which hurts or damages, but the mental states which follow the vipaka and makes it into a big story. Last week I tripped on some steep steps and hurt my knee. There was no client to blame, no Sri Lankan or other terrorists and yet I started getting angry with the ‘stupid steps’ and the design or the building. As Howard and Rob K have indicated, the conditions for any kamma to bring a result are very, very complicated. Whether or not we can accept the unpleasant bodily experience or seeing at this moment as being the result of kamma, we can at least begin to understand the difference between these realities and the proceeding ones which cling, grasp or are averse to the expereinces. We never know what kamma or other conditions will bring what result. Again Rob K just quoted this: ***** > ...........They say it is pretty > much unpredictable (except to the Buddha) when the > results will arise because of the many other > conditions that support or impede kamma. Here is a > quote from the Tipitaka: > " Threefold, however, is the fruit of karma: ripening > during the life-time (dittha-dhamma-vedaníya-kamma), > ripening in the next birth (upapajja-vedaníya-kamma), > ripening in later births (aparápariya-vedaníya kamma) > ...." (A.VI, 63). ***** Do we have an idea of national identity or group? How is this national identity experienced? Does it help us to develop any awareness to cling to this idea of identity or to find ourselves important in anyway? It may seem that groups share the same results of kamma, and indeed there may be certain factors in common, conventionally speaking. Just as there are conditions for us to all read the posts here, there are conditions for groups of people to all suffer at the same time or all hear the Buddha preach the dhamma. So conventionally, perhaps we can talk about ‘group kamma’. In fact, when we look at the same words on the computer screen, seeing sees different visible objects for each of us, and these are different at each moment too. The thinking which follows, conjures up different stories and the accumulated tendencies of ignorance, attachment and understanding will arise accordingly, dependent again on so many conditions. Beginning to understand realities little by little is the way we see that we really live alone and only ever experience the results of our own deeds and other conditioning factors. ***** > 161 "................. > So a mere material and immaterial state, arisen when > it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, > saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not > a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither > transmigrated from the past nor yet is it manifested > here without cause from that"....... " ***** Thanks Rob for all the helpful quotes which I’ve appreciated as I write. I fully appreciate the sensitive nature of some of the issues I raised in the first paragraph of this post and I certainly haven't meant to trivialise these by discussing mundane 'mishaps', but I hope that may be some conditions for useful reflection. Please let me know if I seem to have 'missed the mark';-) Sarah ====================================================== 11201 From: Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] National/group Kamma? Hi Christine, I like this quote, "Beings are owners of their actions, heirs of their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Action is what differentiates beings in terms of baseness & excellence." How it could relate to national kamma I think hinges on the concept "owner". If we read "owner" as something like "take as attribute" then we could say that most of us take our nationalities as an attribute and, to the extent that we do so, the actions of our various nations contribute to our kamma. Conversly, our own actions contribute to the kamma of our nations. The point that Robert K brought up seems to suggest that there are no innocent victims. However, all bad results result from evil done to innocent victims. So guilt and innocence are pretty much a matter of point of view, in the long run. On second thought, maybe "cling to" would be a better way of describing "owner" in "beings are owners of their actions". Larry 11202 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really lon... Dear Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Herman) - > > Reading this post of yours, Sarah, has confirmed my growing > realization that Abhidhamma, more even than the Sutta Pitaka, has an > overwhelmingly phenomenalist slant, which, of course, appeals to me as I > am a > rather radical phenomenalist myself. I’m glad that indirectly the Abhidhamma is becoming more and more appealing to you (even if only because it conforms with radical phenomenalism;-)) > I make the following association with this phenomenalist slant of > > Abhidhamma: It is interesting to me that a co-father of the > Vijnanavada/Yogacara school of Mahayana was Vasubandhu, originally an > Abhidharmist for the Sarvastivadin school who wrote the work Treasury of > > Abhidharma. (Sarvastivada was a sister school to Theravada with some > definite > deficiencies in the form of eternalist, substantialist doctrine.) I cannot comment further on the associations but I have often appreciated the keen study of abhidhamma by Mahayanists (especially some Tibetan Lamas) and I’m always surprised when I hear people who don’t accept the Abhidhamma as being part of the Tipitaka. The extract below, with references to Mahayanist sects accepting the inclusion of the Abhidhamma at the 1st Council, is from my last post in the “Introduction to Vinaya” series which people may have missed if they didn’t get to the end of a long post;-). Sarah ====== “Without wishing to enter into any debate on the topic (about which I know nothing;-), I’ll just add a note from Geiger’s introduction to his translation of Mahavamsa concerning the inclusion of the Abhidhamma in the ‘later tradition’ accounts of the First Council: ‘Among the Northern buddhist sources dealing with the first Council I mention the Mahavastu. Here, in agreement with the southern tradition Kasyapa is given as the originator of the coucil, the number of the bhiksus taking part is stated to be 500 and the place the aptaparna grotto near Rajagrha. ‘There is, besides, an account in the second volume of the Dulva, the Tibetan Vinaya of the Sarvastivadin sect. The fixing of the canon took place, according to this source, in the following order: 1) Dharma, by Ananda; 2)Vinaya, by Upali; 3)Matrka (i.e.Abhidarma) by Mahakasyapa himself..... ‘Fa-hian and Hiuen-thsang also mention the First Council. The former gives the number of the bhiksus a 500, the latter as 1,000; the former speaks in a general way of ‘a collection of sacred books’, the latter expressly mentions also the redaction of the Abhidharma by Mahakasyapa.’ ” ====================================================== 11203 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 11:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] self, self. Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Thanks Kom, > > This is very interesting. I'm going to ponder on > this some more, > especially the difference between attachment to > realities and attachment > to concepts. But I'm still not clear on what > attachment itself is. It > seems a little like pleasant feeling with a > magnetic charge; I'm not > sure if this charge is concept or something else. > I can't see this very > clearly; does it make sense to you? The pleasant feeling is not attachment, but may rise with or without attachment. When we say we are happy, we often mean that we are having a pleasant feeling (mostly with attachment). The feeling is vedana (feeling) kandha, where as attachment is sankhara (voilitional formations) kandha. Vedana (unplesant, neutral, and pleasant) arise with all consciousness, whereas attachment does not. We are creatures bound to pleasant feelings, so when attachment arises with pleasant feeling, we pay attention mostly to the pleasant feeling (and don't know that the attachment is there). The really noticeable one that you may help you understand is when you desire something you do not (yet) have. This is where the feeling may be neutral, but the attachment very strong. Think of your most favorite (non dhamma!) activity. When you want to pursue such an activity, does attachment not rise? It is hard to separate the different mental co-commitants from one another. This is why it says (I think in Mirinda panha, and most likely in other places) that the Buddha did what is extremely difficult: penetrating thoroughly the different mental factors AND being able to put into words that others can understand. No other types of Arahant, Paceka Buddha or the disciple arahants, can do what a Samma-sambuddha can. Here are more definition for you (again, from Cetasikas), and a small comment at the end: The Dhammasangaùi (§1059), in the section where it deals with lobha as hetu, gives a long list of different names for lobha in order to illustrate its different shades and aspects. Lobha is compared to a creeper, it strangles its victim such as a creeper strangles a tree. It is like the ocean, it is insatiable. Lobha can be coarse or it can be more subtle such as hoping or expecting. It is a “bondage” because it binds beings in the round of births. It is a depravity because it corrupts the mind. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) gives the following definition of lobha: - greed has the characteristic of grasping an object like “monkey lime”. - Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. - It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. - Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. - Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives a similar definition. Greed has the characteristic of grasping like monkey lime. Monkey lime was used by hunters in order to catch monkeys. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, Book III, Chapter I, §7, The monkey) that a hunter sets a trap of lime for monkeys. Monkeys who are free from “folly and greed” do not get trapped. We read: … But a greedy, foolish monkey comes up to the pitch and handles it with one paw, and his paw sticks fast in it. Then, thinking: I’ll free my paw, he seizes it with the other paw, but that too sticks fast. To free both paws he seizes them with one foot, and that too sticks fast. To free both paws and the one foot, he lays hold of them with the other foot, but that too sticks fast. To free both paws and both feet he lays hold of them with his muzzle: but that too sticks fast. So that monkey thus trapped in five ways lies down and howls, thus fallen on misfortune. I equate the above tale of the stuck monkey to our being stuck in the samsara (rebirth rounds). We like to do something (with attachment), and seek what we like in hoping that we would satisfy that attachment, not knowing that the seeking only brings more conditions to get us even more tightly stuck to this state of suffering, and not knowing that Lobha can never be satisified. I think your equation of lobha to magnetic charge is quite apt. Lobha sticks to its objecct: it doesn't what to let go. When you are doing something really enjoyable, do you want to interrupt your activities so that you may help others? Attachment leads to being, where as panna that sees realities as they are leads to the end of being. kom 11204 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ayatanas Dear Nina, > >Dear Num, Which book your aunt is helping to translate? > This was also studied in the Board meeting in Bgk (Sunday afternoon). > All > the Pali experts are there, it will be interesting for you after June > when > you live there. You could report to us directly then. I've left out all the details about ayatanas which I need to study when I have a little time to pull out texts and look at all your posts;-) I don't think I know Num's aunt, K. Krisana, but Jon does from the Thai sessions. On our last visit he and Jaran were invited to join the Board meeting and K.Krisana was one of the 'experts' there...Like you say, it's great to have her input here and we look forward to Num's direct reports too;-) Sarah =============== 11205 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: photos - sarah's lucky day Dear Chris and Frank, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Frank, > > For one brief moment, I thought you were wearing an Akubra on your > head. Of course, that would have meant Ken, Herman, Azita and I (and > any lurking members from Oz) would have had to adopt you. This may, > or may not have been a good thing! However....on closer look, you > seem to have escaped that fate. :-) I had to show my ignorance and get a translation from Jon (whom I notice you don't include in your genuine Down Under mafia team;-)) Anyway, he was able to tell me that an Akubra is a Bush hat. > Great to see you, Aren't you glad he checked his inventory and found the 'convict on the run' photo? Great scenery and a nice pic after one's turned one's computer on its side;-) Thanks Frank....you can relax now and help us nag anyone else who tries to come up with all the non-attachment or other excuses;-) Sarah ======== 11206 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re.namas and rupas Dear Azita, Good to see you posting and to see the sharp reminders about rupas (even if you're still having to work out the concepts and names;-)) Ranil, I first met Azita in Sri Lanka too (1979) when she was there with her baby....which makes Zoe (that baby) in her early 20s now....Photo of you both for the album, Azita? Sarah ==================== --- azita gill wrote: > > > > > Hello egberdina - who is really Herman, yes? I > haven't quite nutted out the Who's who, yet. > my 2 cents worth on the above. > i understand rupas to be arising and falling away > continuously whether "we" experience them or not. we > learn about the 28 rupas [i think its 28]in > Abhidhamma. These rupas are part of the conditions > that get "us" here. We like some, we hate some. e.g. > attachment arises when the air is pleasantly cool[i > would love some pleasantly cool air right now]. Maybe > Dosa [aversion] arises when smelling smells a bad > odour. > There are these 5 sense doorways,which are here > predominately bce of Kamma, which are the bases for > citta to experience an object, be it tactile e.g. > hardness/softness, hot/cold, motion/pressure.; > be it sound, smell, taste or visibleobject. > Maybe its me that's missing something in this, but I > find it easy to think of n. & r. and theoretically > know one from the other. But to really KNOW nama from > rupa - uh.uhh. > Cheers Azita. > 11207 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attn Robert Dear Robert, Thank you for your concern... I hope this country will understand the pretious values it has. Otherwise, the meat can you open will have the lable "Made in Sri Lanka". Symptoms are there that ofcourse will happen in the near future. Now things are happening in this country with no one knowing... You should read the news papers to see how the media is trying to fool the people... Anyway... hoping for the best... ~with much meththa Ranil >From: "robertkirkpatrick.rm" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Attn Michael, Sujin, Nina and Sarah >Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:42:34 -0000 > >--- >Dear Ranil, >I liked your post. I was in Sri Lanka in 1989 for a month. At that >time the Tamil tiger problem had diminished and the government were >in a fierce battle with the JVP. >I have read the Mahavamsa and Culavamsa many times and your letter >reminds me of the halcyon days when arahants walked Sri lanka even in >the hundreds of thousands. The Mahavihara, that you mention, kept the >Theravada tradition pristine; even when threatened by hostile kings. >They had such compassion for future generations and would rather die >than change the doctrine. > >robert 11208 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 3:37am Subject: Re: photos - sarah's lucky day Dear Sarah,and All, This was a case of damned if you do, and damned if you don't........ I actually DID include Jon (initially) in the Down Under mafia (what do you know about Herman, Azita or Ken that I don't??) but decided that he might get picky and object on the grounds that a Resident of Hong Kong may not be able to join in a group adoption under Australian Law of a citizen of the United States who just happens also to be an adult, and who may also strenuously object to the process. Possibly even take out a suit against us for assault, battery and deprivation of liberty.........come to think of it, a lawyer might have just had something to offer here...... But this is all just papanca.... :-) It wasn't an akubra anyway. Cheers, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Chris and Frank, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Frank, > > > > For one brief moment, I thought you were wearing an Akubra on your > > head. Of course, that would have meant Ken, Herman, Azita and I (and > > any lurking members from Oz) would have had to adopt you. This may, > > or may not have been a good thing! However....on closer look, you > > seem to have escaped that fate. :-) > > I had to show my ignorance and get a translation from Jon (whom I notice > you don't include in your genuine Down Under mafia team;-)) Anyway, he was > able to tell me that an Akubra is a Bush hat. > > > Great to see you, > > Aren't you glad he checked his inventory and found the 'convict on the > run' photo? Great scenery and a nice pic after one's turned one's computer > on its side;-) > > Thanks Frank....you can relax now and help us nag anyone else who tries to > come up with all the non-attachment or other excuses;-) > > Sarah > ======== > > > 11209 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: photos - sarah's lucky day Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah,and All, > > This was a case of damned if you do, and damned if you don't........ It's a hard life isn't it? For a little light relief (and on about the 10th attempt;-)), we've just managed toadd a few photos to the album donated to the cause by friends (and scanned onto a disc) by the local photo shop....(Actually I have one more from England, but need to ask permission off-list first). Sarah p.s. Dan, if you're there, I tried to find one of a less "nerd-looking" Jon after your earlier questionable comments in this regard - let me know if any pass;-)) 11210 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 6:26am Subject: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2 Dear Frank, Thanks for your comments. I find the venerable Buddhadasa writes very well on many matters also. His most severe criticism of the Visuddhimagga and the teaching of Paticcasamuppada over several lifetimes is that it p59 "is of no use at all because it cannot be practised" . I make this letter more personal than the first one as I hope this will show the help that the ancient commentaries about Paticcasamuppada can be. But firstly, on the issue that Stephen and others brought up of the Jatakas (Buddha's past lives) being a Hindu, Brahmin idea: Some of my study of the Tipitaka focuses on the Abhidhamma - that section of the Dhamma that is said to have one taste: "the taste of anatta". Thus when I read The Dhammapada or the Jataka I look at it in this way, which is also the way that life is here and now. We read of when the Buddha was an animal as a bodhisatta and some people laugh and say it couldn't have been so. Do they realise that in truth there was no Buddha in the sense of an existing being - in the deepest sense. The Abhidhamma and suttas shows us that what we thought were trees and people and animals and even ourself are only conditioned, concantanations of evanescent aggregates (khandas). When we look at a man or woman the Paticcasamuppada (which is also an important section of the Vibhanga, the second book of the Abhidhamma) helps us to see 'man' is simply an idea , a concept and that what is real are only fleeting moments of seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling etc. and then thinking which thinks about these sense contacts. I think knowing this we read the Jataka in a different way: That is that the stories in the jataka are illustrations of the workings of conditionality, especially that condition called kamma. If we are not yet ready to understand anatta the Jataka are still very useful. For example, there is the story of the powerful and deadly snake who decided not to kill. Once some boys came and pierced him with wooden spears and paraded him at the market. He could have killed them all but was so set on sila that he refrained. I am impatient by nature - even waiting at line in the bank puts me on edge at times. But whenever I remember that story I can't help but reflect how "if a snake can show patience and endure so much, then surely I, a human who has heard the Dhamma can do as much" It always makes me smile at my foolishness. Is the story of the snake literally true? I don't know. But I don't doubt it. Now to the Paticcasamuppada: When I first learned about Buddhism I was overawed by the themes expounded in it. The void (sunnata), the deathless, freedom, nirodha, non-graping and so on. I would hear a talk and it all seemed right. I could see that these things must be true. I listened to and read famous teachers who put things so beautifully; it was almost poetry. They made the path seem simple and direct. But somehow I found it didn't quite transform me as I had expected.After a few years I decided to delve into the Pali texts. I studied and gradually things began to make more sense. I found details in the Abhidhamma and commentaries that I could not find anywhere else. For instance here is a passage about verbal intimation – "the mode and the alteration in the consciousness-originated earth element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung to matter….." This is not just theory – it happens everytime we talk to others. Speech is merely these elements, not us. You see I had heard that everything is anatta but I found while I believed this to be true, nonetheless when I spoke I thought it was "me" speaking. Contemplating passages like this helped to bring attention to every little moment in life and break it down into its component parts. Before I studied I had heard many times that avijja(ignorance) keeps the wheel of dependent origination spinning. But ignorance of exactly what? Without the details I couldn't grasp the meaning. Here are some details about avijja (the first link in the Paticcasamuppada from the Visudhimagga XVII 43: " it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of collection in the aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the bases(ayatanas)…..the meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents knowing the meaning of dukkha described in the four ways as `oppression etc'..Furthermore it is ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and objects of eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination." In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true nature of dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each other. The commentary to the UDANA ( translation by Peter Masefield from PTS)defines it (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist (i.e.men, women) and since it does not dart among those things that do exist (i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas). This is not just philosophising. Knowing this helped a lot when I heard it. I thought "yes we are always thinking of "me" and "she" , "us" and "them", we don't see the real dhammas that arise and fall away so quickly. It encouraged me to start to study another world - the world of this moment. This letter is starting to get long so I just want to touch on one other link of the Paticcasamupada(there are twelve in total); the factor of upadana, grasping, clinging. There are four types of clinging (see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that the last three are types of miccha-ditthi, wrong view(the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). These three are the most dangerous types of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand, see Visuddhimagga xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates the three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. I mention this because one of the mistakes I made in my early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense desire. It got to the point where I would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. What is most needed, I think, is that there should be a gradual wearing away of wrongview. We have accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to understand them –not suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in comprehending this point as "sense desire clinging is obvious ... not so the other kinds (the three types of micchaditthi)" Visuddhimagga XVII 246. However, at the moments there is insight into any reality - for example, lust, at those moments there is no clinging. But if we merely try to surpress lust we may succeed (and then feel happy) but be unaware of the more subtle clingings to the idea of 'self' and control that were present. robert 11211 From: Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hi, Sarah - I think the following post of yours is very good - clear, to the point, realistic (though conventional .. oh, gee! ;-)), and not doctrinnaire. With regard to your client, we just can't know what of that complex event is kamma vipaka of yours and what is not. I suspect that the *original* non-paying was not. I suspect that your finding that unpleasant may have been just an automatic evaluation (or, better, the vipaka of being human). I suspect that your internal reaction of anger may have been kamma vipaka, and that your angry verbal response was akusala. But I can suspect what I will, and that won't change the facts. Bottom line: We just don't know. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/8/02 1:01:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Dear Chris, Howard, Ranil, Rob K & friends, > > By way of a diversion, let me add my own daily life experience this > morning and try to make it relevant to 9-11, Holocaust, Sri Lanka’s plight > and indigenous Australians later. > > I found out last night (by email) that a client is considering not paying > quite a large fee due to me. I went to bed ‘obsessed’ and worried about > this and was unable to relax or even read posts . This morning I phoned > the client, hoping to sort the matter out, but in spite of best > intentions, somewhat lost my ‘cool’ and probably reduced the chance of > repayment further;-( > > It may seem (and of course I’d like to kid myself that this is so) that > the problem has been caused entirely by the naughty client. Of course, as > Howard says, conditions are extremely complex and if the client hadn’t > sent the email and had behaved properly, there wouldn’t have been the same > set of unpleasant experiences on my part. > > However, what unpleasant experiences were there anyway? Last night I read > the email. I saw visible object only. Immeditately there were stories and > proliferations and plenty of dosa and also mana (‘how dare he treat me > like this’ and so on). What was the real problem, if not the dosa, mana > and other kilesa arising? This morning when I spoke to him for 10mins > only, I really didn’t even hear anything very unpleasant at all. He didn’t > raise his voice or even speak impolitely. Again the problem was the > thinking and proliferating about his bad motives and actions, the taking > ‘me’ as being so very important and the clinging to this version of events > with so very little awareness of any realities. > ***** > As Rob K recently quoted from the Vism (in his post about > paticcasamuppada): > > > 117"when he is cofused about independently-arisen > > states, instead of taking the occurence of formations > > to be due to ignorance etc., he figures that it is a > > self that knows or does not know, that acts and causes > > action..." > As Rob adds: > I'd like to say that truly there is no one > > who receives results but that results arise by > > conditions (just to be pedantic). From the > > Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere > > arising of fruit (vipaka);" > ***** > By understanding more about different phenomena now, we’ll undersatand > more about how momentary vipaka (result of kamma) is and how it is in fact > not the vipaka which hurts or damages, but the mental states which follow > the vipaka and makes it into a big story. > > Last week I tripped on some steep steps and hurt my knee. There was no > client to blame, no Sri Lankan or other terrorists and yet I started > getting angry with the ‘stupid steps’ and the design or the building. As > Howard and Rob K have indicated, the conditions for any kamma to bring a > result are very, very complicated. Whether or not we can accept the > unpleasant bodily experience or seeing at this moment as being the result > of kamma, we can at least begin to understand the difference between these > realities and the proceeding ones which cling, grasp or are averse to the > expereinces. > > We never know what kamma or other conditions will bring what result. Again > Rob K just quoted this: > ***** > > ...........They say it is pretty > > much unpredictable (except to the Buddha) when the > > results will arise because of the many other > > conditions that support or impede kamma. Here is a > > quote from the Tipitaka: > > " Threefold, however, is the fruit of karma: ripening > > during the life-time (dittha-dhamma-vedanÃya-kamma), > > ripening in the next birth (upapajja-vedanÃya-kamma), > > ripening in later births (aparápariya-vedanÃya kamma) > > ...." (A.VI, 63). > ***** > Do we have an idea of national identity or group? How is this national > identity experienced? Does it help us to develop any awareness to cling to > this idea of identity or to find ourselves important in anyway? > > It may seem that groups share the same results of kamma, and indeed there > may be certain factors in common, conventionally speaking. Just as there > are conditions for us to all read the posts here, there are conditions for > groups of people to all suffer at the same time or all hear the Buddha > preach the dhamma. So conventionally, perhaps we can talk about ‘group > kamma’. In fact, when we look at the same words on the computer screen, > seeing sees different visible objects for each of us, and these are > different at each moment too. The thinking which follows, conjures up > different stories and the accumulated tendencies of ignorance, attachment > and understanding will arise accordingly, dependent again on so many > conditions. Beginning to understand realities little by little is the way > we see that we really live alone and only ever experience the results of > our own deeds and other conditioning factors. > ***** > > 161 "................. > > So a mere material and immaterial state, arisen when > > it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, > > saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not > > a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither > > transmigrated from the past nor yet is it manifested > > here without cause from that"....... " > ***** > Thanks Rob for all the helpful quotes which I’ve appreciated as I write. > > I fully appreciate the sensitive nature of some of the issues I raised in > the first paragraph of this post and I certainly haven't meant to > trivialise these by discussing mundane 'mishaps', but I hope that may be > some conditions for useful reflection. Please let me know if I seem to > have 'missed the mark';-) > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11212 From: rikpa21 Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 7:52am Subject: Re: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: Robert, I just wanted to that you for your post, because I found your entire post inspiring and beautiful, to hear exactly how the study of the Abhidhamma has helped your understanding of the Buddha's teachings. Erik 11213 From: Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really lon... Hi, Sarah - Thank you for the post I copy below. I will just comment on: "I’m always surprised when I hear people who don’t accept the Abhidhamma as being part of the Tipitaka." I certainly do accept the Abhidhamma Pitaka as the third basket of the Tipitaka, but I don't take it to be direct Buddha word. Several if not all of the early schools developed their own abhidhamma, as did Mahayana schools. The 7 books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka constitute the Theravadin Abhidhamma. I think that it includes enormously valuable material and insights, and, for the most part, brilliantly synopsizes the theoretical content taught directly by the Buddha in his 45 years of giving discourses. But I take the other two baskets as coming directly (more or less) from the Buddha. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/8/02 2:27:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Herman) - > > > > Reading this post of yours, Sarah, has confirmed my growing > > realization that Abhidhamma, more even than the Sutta Pitaka, has an > > overwhelmingly phenomenalist slant, which, of course, appeals to me as I > > am a > > rather radical phenomenalist myself. > > I’m glad that indirectly the Abhidhamma is becoming more and more > appealing to you (even if only because it conforms with radical > phenomenalism;-)) > > > I make the following association with this phenomenalist slant of > > > > Abhidhamma: It is interesting to me that a co-father of the > > Vijnanavada/Yogacara school of Mahayana was Vasubandhu, originally an > > Abhidharmist for the Sarvastivadin school who wrote the work Treasury of > > > > Abhidharma. (Sarvastivada was a sister school to Theravada with some > > definite > > deficiencies in the form of eternalist, substantialist doctrine.) > > I cannot comment further on the associations but I have often appreciated > the keen study of abhidhamma by Mahayanists (especially some Tibetan > Lamas) and I’m always surprised when I hear people who don’t accept the > Abhidhamma as being part of the Tipitaka. > > The extract below, with references to Mahayanist sects accepting the > inclusion of the Abhidhamma at the 1st Council, is from my last post in > the “Introduction to Vinayaâ€? series which people may have missed if they > didn’t get to the end of a long post;-). > > Sarah > ====== > > > “Without wishing to enter into any debate on the topic (about which I know > nothing;-), I’ll just add a note from Geiger’s introduction to his > translation > of Mahavamsa concerning the inclusion of the Abhidhamma in the ‘later > tradition’ accounts of the First Council: > > ‘Among the Northern buddhist sources dealing with the first Council I > mention > the Mahavastu. Here, in agreement with the southern tradition Kasyapa is > given > as the originator of the coucil, t?e number of the bhiksus taking part is > stated to be 500 and the place the aptaparna grotto near Rajagrha. > > ‘There is, besides, an account in the second volume of the Dulva, the > Tibetan > Vinaya of the Sarvastivadin sect. The fixing of the canon took place, > according to this source, in the following order: 1) Dharma, by Ananda; > 2)Vinaya, by Upali; 3)Matrka (i.e.Abhidarma) by Mahakasyapa himself..... > > ‘Fa-hian and Hiuen-thsang also mention the First Council. The former gives > the > number of the bhiksus a 500, the latter as 1,000; the former speaks in a > general way of ‘a collection of sacred books’, the latter expressly > mentions > also the redaction of the Abhidharma by Mahakasyapa.’ â€? > ====================================================== > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11214 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 8:14am Subject: mistaken identities, photos - sarah's lucky day Hi Chris and Sarah, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah,and All, > > This was a case of damned if you do, and damned if > you don't........ > I actually DID include Jon (initially) in the Down > Under mafia (what > do you know about Herman, Azita or Ken that I > don't??) but decided > that he might get picky and object on the grounds > that a Resident of > Hong Kong may not be able to join in a group > adoption under > Australian Law of a citizen of the United States who > just happens > also to be an adult, and who may also strenuously > object to the > process. If adoption means I get to cultivate in a warm climate full time with the requisites taken care of by my mafia parents, sign me up :-) > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah > wrote: > > I had to show my ignorance and get a translation > from Jon (whom I > notice > > you don't include in your genuine Down Under mafia > team;-)) Anyway, > he was > > able to tell me that an Akubra is a Bush hat. So Oz referred to Australia then and not Wizard of Oz? I thought Chris meant that I was wearing an outfit that made me look like one of the munchkins or something from the movie Wizard of Oz. > > Aren't you glad he checked his inventory and found > the 'convict on > the > > run' photo? Great scenery and a nice pic after > one's turned one's > computer > > on its side;-) Interestingly enough, a case of mistaken identity seems to happen to me all the time. In Japan, people regularly approached me and spoke Japanese (I'm Chinese). Many Chinese think I look Korean, or at least not Chinese. When I first started shaving my head many years ago before it became common, my friend thought I looked like an escaped convict. When I was in Mexico (I can get as tan as they do), a native mexican woman approached me speaking Spanish to ask for directions. A classmate in yoga who had taken kung fu lessons for many years thought I was a Shaolin monk. At Wat Metta, one of the Thai people thought I was Thai. Walking at night in Los Angeles, I was stopped by police who thought I looked like an Asian Gang member. At the temple I'm volunteering at, people think I'm a monk. Maybe I'll grow an afro and see what happens. It sure would be nice if people on the basketball court perceived me as a real threat to dunk on them. obligatory dhamma insight: All kinds of misunderstandings and misadventures ensue when we identify with and misconceive this skin bag filled with bones, blood, pus. -fk 11215 From: Lucy Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Effort/samma vayamo Thanks Victor. You should post that message every day : ) Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Yu" > Hello all, > > I find the following passage from > Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 > Magga-vibhanga Sutta > An Analysis of the Path > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu > a good reminder. > > "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his > intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that > have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of > evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, > endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake > of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his > intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, > & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called > right effort." > > Regards, > Victor 11216 From: Lucy Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mindfulness of nama and rupa/Jon Dear Jon & Larry Thanks for the very helpful thread - it addresses several of my questions on what is "practice". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" > > > There is however no need to single out one particular dhamma to study or > focus upon. That seems to suggest an idea that one dhamma is more worth > knowing, or easier to know, than another, or that focusing our attention > ('concentrating') on dhammas is a condition for the arising of insight, > and I don't think any of these ideas are found in the texts. > Jon, do you mean that it is more "correct" (can't really think of an appropriate word to use here!) to allow attention to follow the events as they become prominent in the consciousness? Just looking at what appears and how it appears & disappears, instead of trying to force attention onto one particular event / dhamma, makes a lot more sense (to me, and I may be wrong!). "Concentrating" on one aspect feels to me rather artificial, as if constructing something that isn't there at all - not a reality. Also, "concentrating" on the task in hand feels as if I'm blindfolded and can't "see" anything, but if I sort of step aside and just look, then things start falling into place --- or unravelling, as you say. < > > According to the Buddha's teaching, all dhammas have impermanence etc as > their characteristic. The insight that begins to see realties as they are > would also begin to see these characteristics of those realties, to some > (limited) degree or another. But again, it's not a matter of thinking we > should be trying to discern these characteristics. > This makes a lot of sense too - often I catch myself trying to stick "labels" (dukkha, anicca, anatta) on dhammas but this too feels very forced. Without the "labels", I can often see anicca quite clearly --- perhaps it's a question of carrying on looking at anicca until the others appear too : ) > That's as I understand it, anyway, Larry. I hope some of what I've said > make some sense for you. > Makes a lot of sense to me, thanks ! Lucy 11217 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2 Hi Robert, --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: [buddhadhasa's] most severe criticism > of the > Visuddhimagga and the teaching of Paticcasamuppada > over several > lifetimes is that it p59 "is of no use at all > because it cannot be > practised" . On this point, I actually sympathize with him. After all these years, I'm still not sure what to make of the entire 12 links in the dependent origination. Parts of it seem to apply only in the extreme present moment, while other parts seem to go over many lifetimes. I tend to focus on only the extreme present moment part of it for my practice- i.e. contact->feeling->craving->being. After all, that's the only reality I'm experiencing directly. The heart of my practice and the evidence of the efficacy of my practice is right there. If I react to feeling in unprofitable ways, then right there I know if I'm reducing or increasing suffering. Yet, the belief in rebirth is an incredibly powerful motivator in spiritual practice. If I believed that physical death in this present life was annihilation, that would not change my conviction that Buddhism is still the most practical and pragmatic method of maximizing happiness and minimizing suffering, but it would remove the sense of urgency I have to seek COMPLETE cessation of suffering/primordial ignorance. I would most likely live a much more lax lifestyle, integrating ultimately unprofitable but immediately gratifying worldly pleasures. I would be much more likely to lead a self indulgent lifestyle as a forest recluse absorbed in the bliss of meditation instead of trying to help spread what little I've learned of the dhamma to others. Just intuitively examining the reasons of why ancient cultivators of the past practiced austerities, and continued to practice austerities even after becoming an arahant, I find it completely incomprehensible that they did not believe in rebirth. Who in their right mind would subject themselves to so much pain and arduous practice unless they were driven by a motive to end the infinite round of existence? Just doesn't make any sense. There is a sutta (SN) where the buddha says: "Dudes, suppose I were to offer you a deal. For every day of your life, if someone were to shoot 100 arrows into your body in the morning, at noon, and in the evening, for 100 years, but at the end of that life you were assured of penetrating the 4 NT and putting an end to this round of suffering, then if you had any brains at all you would snatch up that deal in a heartbeat." I also find it hard to believe that rebirth is a concept that later followers smuggled into buddhism. If that is the case, I have to give them credit for being creative and so convincing in their forgery. How many of you would practice Buddhism seriously if you didn't believe in rebirth? If I didn't have rebirth as a motivator, I'd focus all my energy of this lifetime in blissful meditative absorptions and even some of the less refined blissful worldly absorptions. -fk 11218 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 7:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Rob Ep From the context of your post (ie., in reply to my sutta reference about the factors for development of insight/for enlightenment), I think the question you are posing for discussion is this: If a form of practice is intuitively and self-evidently seen as leading to greater insight, does it matter that it varies from the factors for development as stated in the texts? (Hope i've not over-stated you here, Rob) The difficulty with this proposition is that we all know from experience that what seemed intuitively and self-evidently ‘right’ some time ago (for example, at a former stage of our lives) is now seen in hindsight as the product of uninformed ideas or misguided aspirations (no matter how honestly held at the time). The explanation for this is I think quite simple; the 'usual suspects' of ignorance and wrong view about realities, and an unrealistic assessment of our own capabilities. I believe these same factors are still with us today, although perhaps in somewhat more disguised form. I know from other threads, Rob, that you place great importance on having a thorough conceptual grasp of the nature of nibbana, as explained by the Buddha, as a proper basis for the practice. I am not sure why, when it comes to the real essentials of practice, conformity with the texts is generally seen as being of less importance, or even an unnecessary delay to embarking on so-called ‘actual practice’. Surely a clear intellectual grasp of these qualities called mindfulness and insight about which the Buddha spoke, and of how those qualities are to be developed, is an indispensable first step. No doubt the idea of 'concentrated and repeated attention to the moment with the least amount of distraction', as mentioned in you post, seems intuitively self-evident, but to my knowledge nowhere in the texts are the factors of volitional (forced?) effort and a quiet place given as prerequisites, in the sense of *must do’s, must have’s*, for the development of awareness and insight into presently arising realities. When you think about it, there is an inherent inconsistency in the idea of attention that is *to the moment* and yet that requires that moment to be *with the least amount of distraction*. Surely ‘the moment’ is simply the moment, with or without perceived distractions. Actually, what you refer to as distractions are essentially and ultimately the same dhammas that we seek to have awareness of and insight into. Seeing them as distractions simply conceptualises them, and takes us further away from the present moment. It is really a kind of 'reification' in the abstract. At one level we can accept that it is only the present moment that has any significance as regards awareness of and insight into dhammas. The fact that we nevertheless persist in thinking in terms of present moments other than the *present* present moment (!) suggests that we have only a superficial appreciation of this. Seeing in ourselves the tendency to shy away from understanding the presently appearing reality, on whatever pretext, can be the first step in exposing normally unrecognised wrong view. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > Your post here is very well stated. I want to suggest one possibility, > which is > the absurd notion which I none-the-less believe, that wrong view with > right > practice can lead to the right result. > > The reason I believe this, and I am ready to be challenged, is that it > is the > nature of insight that it is an interruption of one's view. Therefore > any > practice that leads to true insight will lead to right view, even in a > practitioner who has the wrong view of self. > > What a correct practice means to me is that it is a skillful enough > technique that > it is 'view-proof'. It will interrupt wrong view even if the > practitioner's > current view of self would fight against it. > > Insight is a surprise occurence. It can be cultivated but not planned. > The > practice of mindfulness does, I believe, lead to insight, and then wrong > view is > gradually replaced by discernment. > > In my opinion, it is concentrated and repeated practice in mindfulness > that leads > to discernment of the actual nature of the moment. If one can do this > in daily > life, no one would argue with this, because that means that the person > practicing > this is engaged in meditation, even while going about their normal > activities. > But to think that correct practice of meditation does not increase one's > skill at > practicing mindfulness does not make sense to me. It seems that > practice of > attention to the moment with the least amount of distraction does lead > to > increased skill at developing a mindful state, which leads to insight. > Rather > than getting tainted fruit because of the wrong view of self, it is this > kind of > skill in the moment that eventually transcends and corrects wrong view. > > I am speaking as one who is still in a cloudy state of murky > self-concept, I am > sure, so I speak of this while bumping into the furniture in the dark, > but > never-the-less, I present it for your consideration. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 11219 From: Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 8:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] self, self. Thanks Kom, I'm going to have to investigate further before I have any more to say. Everything you have written and sent has inspired me to look more closely at experience as it unfolds. So, the only thing to do is do it. best regards, Larry 11220 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 9:01pm Subject: Re: 4 hallucinations/perversions (and 'gos') --- azita gill wrote: > > hello Jon and others, > upon inspecting my "bookcase" I 've > discovered some wonderful dhamma literature which I've > had for ages but-you know, conditions weren't right > for me to pull it out and study-I'm really glad to > have the opportunity to study again and have so > appreciated this group. Great news, Helen. I remember from the old days that you have a real interest in understading the present moment. I'm sure this focus has not been entirely absent during the past few (now let's see, that must be 20 or so) years. > Sundara and I have regular contact. He is now in Oz > and I have encouraged him to join and I'm sure he > will. have lost contact with Richard altho. think I > know where he is. Laurence Mills, used to be > Khantipalo, lives in Cairns, runs a Buddhist centre > which I've attended, however its very Tibetan in style > and - well i don't go very often. > I'm aware that the above info. probably won't interest > other people, so more private "goss" I'll send > directly to you, Jon. Good. I'm waiting! Jon 11221 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'No control' vs the 4 padhanas (was, samma samadhi) Dear Kom, I wonder whether everyone has a slightly different definition of 'control' and possibly agreeing on a definition first may be more productive. When I think about 'to control', it carries the meaning: "To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over, power to direct or determine result." Perhaps others see 'to control' differently? Is there anything in 'Useful Posts' on this, maybe under a different heading? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Christine & Jonothan, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] > > > > > I still find the idea of no control hard to > > understand/accept, and > > > would be delighted if someone showed me a > > loophole .......but, > > > despite trying, I can't point to any area of > > life where there is > > > complete control. Control seems to be one of > > those words where it > > > is 'all' or 'nothing'. > > > > Yes, all or nothing is right, in the sense that > > anything less than total > > control is really no control. > > > > I would love it if you would explain in some more details > why "anything less than total control" is really no control > (maybe an example would suffice?). I think there were > discussions revolving around this topics recently including > Pooh. One camp asserts that partial control is possible, > and the other says there is no such thing. > > kom > > 11222 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 3:33am Subject: kamma/view/paticcasamuppada Dear Lucy and Howard, I thought you might be interested in some more about kamma as it relates to the sutta you posted: Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21 Moliyasivaka Sutta To Sivaka Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?"endquote The view that Moliyasivaka presented to the Buddha is called pubbakatahetuvada or pubbebbetaka -hetu-ditthi, the view that all feelings in the present life is due to deeds done in former existences. It is an extreme view that is ignorant of the many other conditions operating from the past and present. Another two commonly held views are issaranimmana-hetu-ditthi, the view that a creator God is responsible for the experiences in this life ahetu-apaccaya-ditthi, the view that there is no such thing as kamma and that all feelings arise by chance. This last view is fairly common in our age with many people imagining that it is by chance that they are born as man or woman or dog or horse, and that their experiences in life happen largely by chance and present effort only. Some people hold to views which are a mix of two or even all three. In this sutta the Buddha was concerned to refute the first extreme view only. The Blessed one replied to Sivaka: "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."endquote With regard to the statement in 'Abhidhamma in daily life' that ""when we hear unpleasant words, the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing-consciousness) is akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we perform ourselves."" Howard wrote that"There is no doubt in my mind that what is being said there is that every unpleasant experience is the result of one's own kamma. But I do not buy that at all, nor do I believe that the Buddha did. In fact, in at least one sutta, the Buddha explicitly denied that, characterizing it as wrong view, a view of kammic determinism""" However, this is perhaps a hasty conclusion: In the Abhidhamma - as has been explained in Abhidhamma in Daily life- there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences an object such as sound only one moment is vipaka, result. The rest are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a flash and then many, many more moments that are not vipaka. Now that very insignificant vipaka citta is certainly conditioned by kamma, that is by kamma done at an earlier time in the same life or in previous lives. However, even that vipaka is not conditioned solely by kamma. The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on."" best wishes robert 11223 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2 Dear Frank and Erik, thanks for your comments. It has been very helpful for me to reflect more on Paticcasamuppada during this week.I appreciate that Venerable Buddhadasa's book acted as a spur for this. More below: wrote: > wrote: > [buddhadhasa's] most severe criticism > > of the > > Visuddhimagga and the teaching of Paticcasamuppada > > over several > > lifetimes is that it p59 "is of no use at all > > because it cannot be > > practised" . > > On this point, I actually sympathize with him. > After all these years, I'm still not sure what to make > of the entire 12 links in the dependent origination. > Parts of it seem to apply only in the extreme present > moment, while other parts seem to go over many > lifetimes. > I tend to focus on only the extreme present moment > part of it for my practice- i.e. > contact->feeling->craving->being. After all, that's > the only reality I'm experiencing directly. The heart > of my practice and the evidence of the efficacy of my > practice is right there. If I react to feeling in > unprofitable ways, then right there I know if I'm > reducing or increasing suffering. > _______________ Dear Frank, The Paticcasamupadda is sometimes taught as covering just one moment , as well as over lifetimes. When it is taught over lifetimes avijja and sankhara are described as the causes in the past life, vinnana, nama-rupa, phassa and vedana as the consequences in the present life; tanha, upadana and bhava as the causes in the present life and jati and jaramarana (old age and death) as results that will occur in the future. I focussed on two links in my post, avijja - a cause from the past- and upadana- a cause from the present. However, I tried to stress that avijja is happening now, just as it was in the past. Thus it will give its results in the future. The only way out is for ignorance to be overcome - by seeing into this vicious circle called dependent origination. This seeing with the eye of wisdom performs its function of gradually discerning the nature of dependent origination, and it is this same insight that gradually braks up the causes for it. As a digression I think it is not a matter of 'us' trying to do something; because what insight should be seeing is that there is no one who is having insight or sati; that there is only these factors of the Paticcasamuppada performing their functions and, like a puppet show, deluding us into thinking that beings and people really exist who are or are not making progress on the path. best wishes robert 11224 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2 Hello Robert, As I see from the passage you wrote below, it is a digression to think so. Regards, Victor As a digression I think it is not a matter of 'us' > trying to do something; because what insight should be seeing is that > there is no one who is having insight or sati; that there is only > these factors of the Paticcasamuppada performing their functions and, > like a puppet show, deluding us into thinking that beings and people > really exist who are or are not making progress on the path. > best wishes > robert 11225 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'No control' vs the 4 padhanas (was, samma samadhi) Hello Christine, I think the problem with arguing whether there is control or not, or whether things are controllable or not is that there are different interpretations and usages of the word "control". "There is control" is one view. "There is no control" is another. As I see it, those views are not worth holding onto. Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" To: Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 4:23 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] 'No control' vs the 4 padhanas (was, samma samadhi) > Dear Kom, > > I wonder whether everyone has a slightly different definition > of 'control' and possibly agreeing on a definition first may be more > productive. > > When I think about 'to control', it carries the meaning: > "To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over, power to > direct or determine result." > > Perhaps others see 'to control' differently? > Is there anything in 'Useful Posts' on this, maybe under a different > heading? > > metta, > Christine 11226 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 7:02am Subject: Re: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2: To Robert, Frank, And Erik Dear Robert, Frank, And Erik How are you? Robert wrote: "I focussed on two links in my post, avijja - a cause from the past- and upadana- a cause from the present. However, I tried to stress that avijja is happening now, just as it was in the past." As Robert rightly wrote, ignorance is not only a cause from the past, but also a pervasive cause for various blunders happening during our current lifetime. The only time ignorance is suspended is when we are with recollection (sati). Or rather, when recollection arises in the mental events, which are referred to as we or us. Gotama the Buddha treated paticcasammupaada very seriously, and Mahaa Buddhaghosa found it to be a very challenging subject. It is a pity that some people like Buddhadasa blamed Mahaa Buddhaghosa without knowing their own failure to study the works of the latter deeply and comprehensively. Anyone rejecting the relinking consciousness (patisandhi cittam) is rejecting the immediate causal link (anantarapaccayo) between the dying consciousness and the relinking consciousness, thereby rejecting Patthaana. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Frank and Erik, > thanks for your comments. It has been very helpful for me to reflect > more on Paticcasamuppada during this week.I appreciate that > Venerable Buddhadasa's book acted as a spur for this. More below: > > wrote: > > > wrote: > > [buddhadhasa's] most severe criticism > > > of the > > > Visuddhimagga and the teaching of Paticcasamuppada > > > over several > > > lifetimes is that it p59 "is of no use at all > > > because it cannot be > > > practised" . > > > > On this point, I actually sympathize with him. > > After all these years, I'm still not sure what to make > > of the entire 12 links in the dependent origination. > > Parts of it seem to apply only in the extreme present > > moment, while other parts seem to go over many > > lifetimes. > > I tend to focus on only the extreme present moment > > part of it for my practice- i.e. > > contact->feeling->craving->being. After all, that's > > the only reality I'm experiencing directly. The heart > > of my practice and the evidence of the efficacy of my > > practice is right there. If I react to feeling in > > unprofitable ways, then right there I know if I'm > > reducing or increasing suffering. > > _______________ > Dear Frank, > The Paticcasamupadda is sometimes taught as covering just one > moment , as well as over lifetimes. When it is taught over lifetimes > avijja and sankhara are described as the causes in the past life, > vinnana, nama-rupa, phassa and vedana as the consequences in the > present life; tanha, upadana and bhava as the causes in the present > life and jati and jaramarana (old age and death) as results that will > occur in the future. > I focussed on two links in my post, avijja - a cause from the past- > and upadana- a cause from the present. However, I tried to stress > that avijja is happening now, just as it was in the past. Thus it > will give its results in the future. The only way out is for > ignorance to be overcome - by seeing into this vicious circle called > dependent origination. This seeing with the eye of wisdom performs > its function of gradually discerning the nature of dependent > origination, and it is this same insight that gradually braks up the > causes for it. As a digression I think it is not a matter of 'us' > trying to do something; because what insight should be seeing is that > there is no one who is having insight or sati; that there is only > these factors of the Paticcasamuppada performing their functions and, > like a puppet show, deluding us into thinking that beings and people > really exist who are or are not making progress on the path. > best wishes > robert 11227 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2 The only conclusion that I've been able to draw from PS (12 links of paticcasamupadda/dependent origination/conditionality) is that it expresses necessary preconditions for conditions to occur, but if we try to deduce more information from that relationship we get confounded. For example, if we visualize the 12 links in a circular chain, and we suppose that cutting off one link will break the whole circle and end samsaric existence, it doesn't seem to work quite as simple as that. What if we cut off craving? Is cutting off craving the same as cutting off the underlying tendency for craving? Or can cutting off craving simply be like Pavlov's dog where a well trained monk has a conditioned response to not react to pleasant/unpleasnat/neutral feelings in inapproriate ways? This is where I wonder about the Burmese Vipassana system. They seem to give the impression that we can break the chain at craving. I'm not so sure. To me, it seems like the only part of the circular chain that can truly be broken is "ignorance", but even then when one becomes an arhant, the WHOLE chain doesn't just fall completely apart. Discontinuities occur, but not every link breaks. I'm not sure I actually like the 12 nidanas. The dhamma makes more sense when the related portions in context are grouped together. Some buddhist scholars believe the 12 links was a later buddhist development that tried to compact everything the buddha ever said about conditionality into one complex formula. Perhaps similar to a botched attempt at a unified field theory in physics. -fk 11228 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 8:06am Subject: RE: [dsg] 'No control' vs the 4 padhanas (was, samma samadhi) Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > > Dear Kom, > > When I think about 'to control', it carries the meaning: > "To exercise authoritative or dominating > influence over, power to > direct or determine result." You would have no objection from me on this definition! > > Perhaps others see 'to control' differently? > Is there anything in 'Useful Posts' on this, > maybe under a different > heading? > There are spades of discussion involving around this area including the recent Pooh, Samma-vayama, and more distant discussions on our influence on voilitional formations, being able to influence Sati and Samadhi to arise. It's probably hard to look up those specific circumstances. However, the useful posts has tons of stuffs on Anatta. kom 11229 From: Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma/view/paticcasamuppada Hi, Robert - Thank you for this detailed post. I do accept that every experience that comes to one is in part kamma vipaka in the following sense at least: The experience would not have occurred had one not been born into the current realm. (But., of course, and I expect you will agree with this, that is a far cry from the view, for example, that every person who is tortured is reaping what he, himself, has sowed. The view that all proceeds from one's kamma easily lends itself to such guilt-of-the-victim nonsense as is often expressed, for example, in cases of rape.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/9/02 6:35:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > Dear Lucy and Howard, > I thought you might be interested in some more about kamma as it relates > to the sutta you posted: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21 > Moliyasivaka Sutta > To Sivaka > > Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at > the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by > name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and > friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: > "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this > doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or > neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, > what does the revered Gotama say about this?"endquote > > The view that Moliyasivaka presented to the Buddha is called > pubbakatahetuvada or pubbebbetaka -hetu-ditthi, the view that all feelings > in the present life is due to deeds done in former existences. It is an > extreme view that is ignorant of the many other conditions operating from > the past and present. Another two commonly held views are > issaranimmana-hetu-ditthi, the view that a creator God is responsible for > the experiences in this life ahetu-apaccaya-ditthi, the view that there is > no such thing as kamma and that all feelings arise by chance. This last > view is fairly common in our age with many people imagining that it is by > chance that they are born as man or woman or dog or horse, and that their > experiences in life happen largely by chance and present effort only. Some > people hold to views which are a mix of two or even all three. > In this sutta the Buddha was concerned to refute the first extreme view > only. > > The Blessed one replied to Sivaka: "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, > there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of > feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it > is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... > of > (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by > injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there > arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by > oneself; > also in the world it is accepted as true. > "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that > 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or > neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then > they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true > by > the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these > ascetics and brahmans."endquote > > With regard to the statement in 'Abhidhamma in daily > life' that ""when we hear unpleasant words, the moment of experiencing the > sound (hearing-consciousness) is > akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we perform ourselves."" > > Howard wrote that"There is no doubt in my mind that what is being said > there is that every unpleasant experience is the result of one's own > kamma. But I do not buy that at all, nor do I believe that the Buddha > did. In fact, in at least one sutta, the Buddha explicitly denied that, > characterizing it as wrong view, a view of kammic determinism""" > > However, this is perhaps a hasty conclusion: > In the Abhidhamma - as has been explained in Abhidhamma in Daily life- > there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), > kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences > an object such as sound only one moment is vipaka, result. The rest > are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a > flash and then many, many more moments that are not vipaka. > Now that very insignificant vipaka citta is certainly conditioned by > kamma, that is by kamma done at an earlier time in the same life or in > previous lives. However, even that vipaka is not conditioned solely by > kamma. The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 notes > that there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no > single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a > single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple > causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja > paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause > and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the > inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances > because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious > and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a > single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) > because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma > and so on."" > > > best wishes > robert > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and the Sutta Pitaka -no discrepancy op 08-02-2002 00:17 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: > > About phassa, I did not see the difference of this in suttanta and > abhidhamma. In Dhammasagani, abhidhamma book I. Phenomena were classified, > sliced and disintegrated. The same thing in Vibhanga, book II. In abhidhamma > phassa was not directly categorized as universal cetasika but no matter how > citta sliced or classified phassa is always there. In book I, phassa was also > called phassahara (phassa as a nutrient). Without phassa, mental processes > cannot arise. Phassa is kind of a gateway. In suttanta esp. in > salayatana-vagga, phassa is a leading cause of feeling and then mental act. > To me, I feel like they talk about the same thing in different manner. Phassa > is a gateway or leading factor for processes of citta and other cetasika, in > coordinating a meeting between sense door, object and sense conscious. > Dear Num, You asked me to join in. I agree, there is no discrepancy. Phassa, contact, has a characteristic, a function, a manifestation and a proximate cause. The manifestation is the coinciding of base, object and consciousness, as the Atthasalini stated. The same is said in the suttas: when visible object impinges on the eye-base and seeing arises, you know that there is contact accompanying seeing and performing its function of contacting the visible object, so that seeing can experience it. That is the manifestation of contact. It is not an abstract category, it performs its function each moment, also now. I agree with your other points about Abhidhamma and suttanta. As you said: > Num: < Writing style is different in suttanta-abhidhamma and commentaries. > Repetition, slightly different slicing style is used in both suttanta and > abhidhamma, more so in abhidhamma. I guess that is the way for oral > transmission. The Com. which was written much later or somewhat more concise > and somewhat more categorized. I think that is possible because of writing > technology. I found that in Com. some new terms were introduced and things > were organized somewhat differently. > Let me close with what is, I think, vital to know. I like Malunkayaputta a > lot. A man was wounded and bleeding by arrows but he refused anybody to help > him if he could not know who shot the arrow, what he looked like, where was > he from, what kind of the bow the arrow was shot from, what the arrow made > from. He would soon die without getting any help or answers. When I read > sutta or abhidhamma, it causes me some doubts. I remind myself the sutta. > Reality here and now is vital and critical; nama-rupa, satipathana. I > probably will be able or unable to know which one was written first suttanta > or abhidhamma or which book in abhidhamma was written first. Reading the > whole tipitaka without knowing reality here and now is also pretty much > studying in a conceptual manner. > end quote. >Nina: I fully agree, we should not forget the aim of all our reading and studying: understanding seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, and all dhammas appearing now. Otherwise our study will be fruitless and speculative. The Buddha taught Malunkyaputta the four noble Truths. When we come to understand that what we take for people and self are only nama and rupa, wrong view can be eliminated and only after that the other defilements can be eradicated. The end of defilements means the end of dukkha because then there will not be rebirth. Best wishes from Nina. > > 11231 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 3:44pm Subject: Laughter and Humour Dear All, During this last week, a friend of many years commented that he felt I couldn't be a real buddhist because I laughed and smiled too much. This seemed a strange remark, and I shrugged it off..... But I kept remembering it. So I searched for a few references and found that perhaps there was a basis for my friends' remark. This was surprising to me and a little disturbing. I cannot imagine life without laughter - it would become a depressing marathon of endurance.....Perhaps, it is too much laughter that is to be discouraged?....The wrong sort? and who judges that?...Or is it that you automatically lose your sense of humour the more progress you make? metta, Christine http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-002.html Then Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?" "Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that." A second time... A third time Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, said: "Venerable sir, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?" "Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor -- himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless -- with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb." When this was said, Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'" "I'm not crying, venerable sir, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of actors who said: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/lett7b.htm "if humour is, as I have suggested, in some way a reaction to fear, then so long as there remains a trace of the contradiction, of the existential paradox, so long will there remain a trace of humour. But since, essentially, the Buddha's Teaching is the cessation of fear (or more strictly of anxiety, the condition of fear), so it leads to the subsidence of humour. Not, indeed, that the arahat is humourless in the sense of being serious-minded; far from it; no -- it is simply that the need he formerly felt for humour has now ceased. And so we find in the Suttas (A. III,105: i,261) that whereas excessive laughter 'showing the teeth' is called childishness, a smile when one is rightly pleased is not out of place. Perhaps you may like to see here a distinction between inauthentic and authentic humour." http://www.stanford.edu/~jasona/j92-final/ Associating laughter with religion was even a problem for early Buddhist scholastics. Laughter was thought to be something common, even vulgar. Some see the comic as a distraction from the seriousness of religion, while others view it as adding "spice to the rice," so to speak. Thus, Buddhist scholastics preferred to disassociate the Buddha's teachings from laughter. However, there was a problem: many sutras say or imply that the Buddha would laugh on occassion. How could this discrepancy be resolved? Bharata, during the fourth century in India, wrote a theatrical treatise that remedied this by differentiating between the different types of laughter, as diagrammed below: Type of Laughter Short Description Appropriate Caste Sita highest and noblest form, a faint smile High castes, authority figures Hasita next highest form, a smile which barely reveals the tips of the teeth Vihasita an even larger smile accompanied by some laughter Middle ranks Upahasita a more pronounced laughter, marked by shaking of the head, shoulders, and arms Apahasita loud laughter that makes one teary-eyed Lower castes, people of unruly or uncouth behavior Atihasita uproarious laughter that makes one double over, slap the thighs, or roll around Therefore, according to Bharata, the Buddha was only associated with sita "laughter", although from a modern sense, this isn't even considered laughter" http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/chapter_1.htm "26. Hasituppáda is a citta peculiar to Arahats. Smiling is caused by a pleasurable feeling. There are thirteen classes of consciousness by which one may smile according to the type of the person. An ordinary worldling (puthujjana) may laugh with either one of the four types of cittas rooted in attachment, accompanied by pleasure, or one of the four kusala cittas, accompanied by pleasure. Sotápannas, Sakadágámís, and Anágámís may smile with one of the two akusala cittas, disconnected with false view, accompanied by pleasure, or with one of the four kusala cittas. Arahats and Pacceka Buddhas may smile with one of the four sobhana kiriya cittas or hasituppáda. Sammá Sambuddhas smile with one of the two sobhana kiriya cittas, accompanied by wisdom and pleasure. There is nothing but mere mirth in the hasituppáda consciousness.The Compendium of Philosophy states: "There are six classes of laughter recognized in Buddhist works: (1) sita: - a smile manifesting itself in expression and countenance; (2) hasita: - a smile consisting in the slight movements of the lips just enough to reveal the tips of the teeth; (3) vihasita: - laughter giving out a light sound; (4) upahasita: - laughter accompanied by the movement of the head, shoulders, and arms; (5) apahasita: - laughter accompanied by the shedding of tears; and (6) atihasita: - an outburst of laughter accompanied by the forward and backward movements of the entire body from head to foot. Laughter is thus a form of bodily expression (káya-viññatti), which may or may not be accompanied by vocal expression (vací-viññatti). Of these, the first two classes are indulged in by cultured persons, the next two by the average man, and the last two by the lower classes of being." http://www.wfb-hq.org/bud15c.htm "Consider, for example, laughter. The Buddha once said, "Laughter is the behaviour of an infant in its cradle." Think about it. We like to laugh heartily, even though it is the behaviour of an infant in its cradle. It doesn't even embarrass us. We like it. We go right on laughing heartily, guffawing loudly. Why did the Buddha say that "Laughter is the behaviour of an infant in its cradle"? Think of an infant in its cradle and the way it lies there gurgling and grinning at you. The laughter of the noble ones is different. They laugh at all compounded things (sankhara), which are impermanent and changing, unsatisfactory (dukkha), and not-self. Because they knew, they can laugh at compounded things and at craving, which henceforth can do them no harm. This is the right kind of laughter, the kind that has meaning and worth." 11232 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Laughter and Humour Hello Christine and all, Here is a discourse in which the Buddha smiled. Anguttara Nikaya V.180 Gavesin Sutta About Gavesin Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-180.html Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" To: Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 6:44 PM Subject: [dsg] Laughter and Humour Dear All, During this last week, a friend of many years commented that he felt I couldn't be a real buddhist because I laughed and smiled too much. This seemed a strange remark, and I shrugged it off..... But I kept remembering it. So I searched for a few references and found that perhaps there was a basis for my friends' remark. This was surprising to me and a little disturbing. I cannot imagine life without laughter - it would become a depressing marathon of endurance.....Perhaps, it is too much laughter that is to be discouraged?....The wrong sort? and who judges that?...Or is it that you automatically lose your sense of humour the more progress you make? metta, Christine http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-002.html Then Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?" "Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that." A second time... A third time Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, said: "Venerable sir, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?" "Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor -- himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless -- with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb." When this was said, Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'" "I'm not crying, venerable sir, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of actors who said: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/lett7b.htm "if humour is, as I have suggested, in some way a reaction to fear, then so long as there remains a trace of the contradiction, of the existential paradox, so long will there remain a trace of humour. But since, essentially, the Buddha's Teaching is the cessation of fear (or more strictly of anxiety, the condition of fear), so it leads to the subsidence of humour. Not, indeed, that the arahat is humourless in the sense of being serious-minded; far from it; no -- it is simply that the need he formerly felt for humour has now ceased. And so we find in the Suttas (A. III,105: i,261) that whereas excessive laughter 'showing the teeth' is called childishness, a smile when one is rightly pleased is not out of place. Perhaps you may like to see here a distinction between inauthentic and authentic humour." http://www.stanford.edu/~jasona/j92-final/ Associating laughter with religion was even a problem for early Buddhist scholastics. Laughter was thought to be something common, even vulgar. Some see the comic as a distraction from the seriousness of religion, while others view it as adding "spice to the rice," so to speak. Thus, Buddhist scholastics preferred to disassociate the Buddha's teachings from laughter. However, there was a problem: many sutras say or imply that the Buddha would laugh on occassion. How could this discrepancy be resolved? Bharata, during the fourth century in India, wrote a theatrical treatise that remedied this by differentiating between the different types of laughter, as diagrammed below: Type of Laughter Short Description Appropriate Caste Sita highest and noblest form, a faint smile High castes, authority figures Hasita next highest form, a smile which barely reveals the tips of the teeth Vihasita an even larger smile accompanied by some laughter Middle ranks Upahasita a more pronounced laughter, marked by shaking of the head, shoulders, and arms Apahasita loud laughter that makes one teary-eyed Lower castes, people of unruly or uncouth behavior Atihasita uproarious laughter that makes one double over, slap the thighs, or roll around Therefore, according to Bharata, the Buddha was only associated with sita "laughter", although from a modern sense, this isn't even considered laughter" http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/chapter_1.htm "26. Hasituppáda is a citta peculiar to Arahats. Smiling is caused by a pleasurable feeling. There are thirteen classes of consciousness by which one may smile according to the type of the person. An ordinary worldling (puthujjana) may laugh with either one of the four types of cittas rooted in attachment, accompanied by pleasure, or one of the four kusala cittas, accompanied by pleasure. Sotápannas, Sakadágámís, and Anágámís may smile with one of the two akusala cittas, disconnected with false view, accompanied by pleasure, or with one of the four kusala cittas. Arahats and Pacceka Buddhas may smile with one of the four sobhana kiriya cittas or hasituppáda. Sammá Sambuddhas smile with one of the two sobhana kiriya cittas, accompanied by wisdom and pleasure. There is nothing but mere mirth in the hasituppáda consciousness.The Compendium of Philosophy states: "There are six classes of laughter recognized in Buddhist works: (1) sita: - a smile manifesting itself in expression and countenance; (2) hasita: - a smile consisting in the slight movements of the lips just enough to reveal the tips of the teeth; (3) vihasita: - laughter giving out a light sound; (4) upahasita: - laughter accompanied by the movement of the head, shoulders, and arms; (5) apahasita: - laughter accompanied by the shedding of tears; and (6) atihasita: - an outburst of laughter accompanied by the forward and backward movements of the entire body from head to foot. Laughter is thus a form of bodily expression (káya-viññatti), which may or may not be accompanied by vocal expression (vací-viññatti). Of these, the first two classes are indulged in by cultured persons, the next two by the average man, and the last two by the lower classes of being." http://www.wfb-hq.org/bud15c.htm "Consider, for example, laughter. The Buddha once said, "Laughter is the behaviour of an infant in its cradle." Think about it. We like to laugh heartily, even though it is the behaviour of an infant in its cradle. It doesn't even embarrass us. We like it. We go right on laughing heartily, guffawing loudly. Why did the Buddha say that "Laughter is the behaviour of an infant in its cradle"? Think of an infant in its cradle and the way it lies there gurgling and grinning at you. The laughter of the noble ones is different. They laugh at all compounded things (sankhara), which are impermanent and changing, unsatisfactory (dukkha), and not-self. Because they knew, they can laugh at compounded things and at craving, which henceforth can do them no harm. This is the right kind of laughter, the kind that has meaning and worth." 11233 From: manji Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 4:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2 Most amazing and auspicious post. :) Esp. the part "... There are four types of clinging (see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that the last three are types of miccha-ditthi, wrong view(the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). These three are the most dangerous types of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand, see Visuddhimagga xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates the three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires." Prajna paramita... manji shugyokai.org -----Original Message----- From: robertkirkpatrick.rm [mailto:robertkirkpatrick@r...] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 9:26 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com; dhammastudy@yahoogroups Subject: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2 11234 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 6:12pm Subject: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 Dear group, In this post I look at some more points raised by Venerable Buddhadasa in about Buddhaghosa and the ancient commentaries. On page 61 , paragraph 268 (chapter heading 'Buddhaghosa' about the 9th paragraph): "therefore his explanation took on the appearance of spanning three births because of the rebirth consciousness from the past coming into the present birth and from the present going over into the future birth" Venerable Buddhadasa is correct; in that if the Visuddhimagga and Buddhaghosa had said that consciousness comes or goes anywhere we are at odds with the Dhamma and the fundamental anattaness and impermanence of all phenomena. It is the radical insight into reality gained by the Buddha that shows that what we have taken to be the same consciousness can't last for the briefest moment- it certainly can't go somewhere or pass from life to life. I am in agreement with venerable Buddhadasa-- as I am with many points in his book-- on the importance of getting this right. I think it is fair, though, to check with the Visuddhimagga as to whether the ancients really taught this perverted doctrine: There are several pages about this including especially Visuddhimagga xvii 133-175. It is complex. I will try to put it as simply as possible. There is a lengthy explanation of how at the actual moment of death, due to several conditions, an object is taken by that consciousness (called cuti-citta) death-consciousness. This consciousness is not different from other types of consciousness that arise and pass away all day long - but it is given this name to identify it(of course each moment is not exactly the same as any other and seeing consciousness is different from hearing consciousness etc; but all have the general characteristic of experiencing an arammana). The next consciousness that arises is called patisandhara (rebirth) and again this is no different from other types of consciousness Although we call it conventionaly a 'new life' it is, just like now, simply a stream of arising and passing consciousnesses carrying on. At this moment this process of arising and passing, birth and death, (khanika marana) occurs but because of ignorance we don't perceive it. But truly we are utterly different from what we were a second ago - the reason we look and feel approximately the same is because similar conditions arise to replace the mentality and materiality that fell away. At conventional death and new birth the changes are more obvious because different kamma will produce results. Here are some pertinent quotes: XVII 164 "The former of these two states of consciousness is called death (cuti) because of falling and the later is called rebirth because of linking (patisandhara) across the gap separating the beginning of the next becoming". Note that there is no suggestion of the consciousness from the previous life going to the present life. The whole point is to make it clear that that is exactly NOT what happens. 164. "it should be understood that it has neither come here from the previous becoming nor has it become manifest without the kamma, the formations(sankharas), the objective field etc. as cause. An echo , or its like, supplies the figures here; connectedness By continuity denies Identity and otherness" 302. "with formations as condition consciousness(sankhara paccaya vinnana) prevents seeing the transmigration of a self." 280 "consequently, the dependent origination with its twelve factors, revolving within the linking of cause and effect is established as having no beginning" 303 "Ignorance here is 'no theory' and 'wrong theory' Also consider an earlier post where I noted thatBuddhaghosa also taught "that the structure of conditions is present not only in a multiple consciousness but also in each single consciousness as well" (see dispeller of delusion and also note 48 of Visuddhimagga). In the Visuddhimagga it is noted that the factor of resultant consciousness does not only refer to rebirth consciousness but also xvii 126 "in the course of an individual existence or continuity" There are several paragraphs about this. ====== Now I want to look at the matter of other worlds, hells and animals and so forth. Venerable Buddhadasa refers to this in paragraph 39 page 14 and suggests that these actually refer to this life. So that "if someone is a state of agitation and anxiety that means that a state of being in hell exists... And these are real hells, more frightful than those hells beneath the ground that eternalists believe in" As venerable Buddhadasa notes sometimes the buddha used conventional speech (vohara-sacca) and at other times he used speech that refers to actual realities (paramattha sacca). In conventional speech we are now alive and living on the human plane. We see other beings living on another plane - the animal plane. The other planes(hells heavens) mentioned in the texts we do not usually see, hence some people believe that only the human and animal plane exist. Actually, according to the Dhamma, in the truest sense there are no humans, no animals no "us" even. But there are dhammas - ephemeral, conditioned phenomena - arising and passing away. At this time, in this world, those streams of conditioned phenomena known conventionally as Stephen or robert include many pleasant moments (intermittently). In some planes pleasant moments are much more frequent and in others much less frequent. In the salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation)- (which Ven. Buddhadasa quotes) "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. There whatever form one sees with the eye is underdesirable, never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. whatever sound..whatever taste..whatever odour..whatever tactile object..whatever mental phenomenon one cognises with the mind is undesirable.disagreeable..."endquote Now, in this world, there are in reality no humans, computers, trees: these are only the shadows of the ultimate dhammas appearing. What appears to eyesense is different colours. Sometimes the moment of seeing is the result of kusala kamma (good kamma) and in that case the object will be pleasing to some degree. At other times, in this plane, the moment of seeing is the result of past akusala kamma- and in that case the object will be unpleasant to some degree. The same for the denizens of hell except that the eye conscious moments are the result of past akusala kamma and hence there is usually no opportunity for pleasant results. Venerable Buddhadasa suggests that "If there is stupidity , then the state of being an animal arises..if there is sensual pleasure of various kinds and intensities then one of the heavenly states arise...All of these states are more real than those talked about which will be experienced after entering the coffin".Endquote I think it is true that we can infer to a degree the nature of other existences by understanding those momentary states of mind that arise in this life and so I don't think it is wrong to emphasise this aspect. But I believe the Buddha taught the planes of existence with a view to the real nature of the world. I think accepting this doesn't have to make one terrified of future lives or hopeful of heavenly pleasures. I think it acts to force one more onto the present because one knows that life now - which is only seeing, hearing, atsting, touching, thinking etc - is no different from life in the past and it will be just like that in the future. It means one becomes intent on understanding this moment and how the factors of the dependent origination work their ways. best wishes robert 11235 From: Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 Hi, Robert - Thanks for this wonderful post. Clearly and beautifully presented. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/9/02 9:13:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > Dear group, > In this post I look at some more points raised by Venerable > Buddhadasa in > about Buddhaghosa and the ancient commentaries. > On page 61 , paragraph 268 (chapter heading 'Buddhaghosa' about the > 9th > paragraph): "therefore his explanation took on the appearance of > spanning > three births because of the rebirth consciousness from the past coming > into the present birth and from the present going over into the future > birth" > > Venerable Buddhadasa is correct; in that if the Visuddhimagga and > Buddhaghosa had said that consciousness comes or goes anywhere we > are at > odds with the Dhamma and the fundamental anattaness and impermanence > of > all phenomena. It is the radical insight into reality gained by the > Buddha > that shows that what we have taken to be the same consciousness can't > last > for the briefest moment- it certainly can't go somewhere or pass from > life > to life. I am in agreement with venerable Buddhadasa-- as I am with > many > points in his book-- on the importance of getting this right. I think > it > is fair, though, to check with the Visuddhimagga as to whether the > ancients really taught this perverted doctrine: > There are several pages about this including especially Visuddhimagga > xvii > 133-175. > It is complex. I will try to put it as simply as possible. > There is a lengthy explanation of how at the actual moment of death, > due > to several conditions, an object is taken by that consciousness > (called > cuti-citta) death-consciousness. This consciousness is not different > from > other types of consciousness that arise and pass away all day long - > but > it is given this name to identify it(of course each moment is not > exactly > the same as any other and seeing consciousness is different from > hearing > consciousness etc; but all have the general characteristic of > experiencing > an arammana). The next consciousness that arises is called > patisandhara > (rebirth) and again this is no different from other types of > consciousness > Although we call it conventionaly a 'new life' it is, just like now, > simply a stream of arising and passing consciousnesses carrying on. > At this moment this process of arising and passing, birth and death, > (khanika marana) occurs but because of ignorance we don't perceive > it. But > truly we are utterly different from what we were a second ago - the > reason > we look and feel approximately the same is because similar conditions > arise to replace the mentality and materiality that fell away. At > conventional death and new birth the changes are more obvious because > different kamma will produce results. > Here are some pertinent quotes: > XVII 164 "The former of these two states of consciousness is called > death > (cuti) because of falling and the later is called rebirth because of > linking (patisandhara) across the gap separating the beginning of the > next > becoming". Note that there is no suggestion of the consciousness from > the > previous life going to the present life. The whole point is to make it > clear that that is exactly NOT what happens. > 164. "it should be understood that it has neither come here from the > previous becoming nor has it become manifest without the kamma, the > formations(sankharas), the objective field etc. as cause. An echo , > or its > like, supplies the figures here; connectedness By continuity denies > Identity and otherness" > 302. "with formations as condition consciousness(sankhara paccaya > vinnana) > prevents seeing the transmigration of a self." > 280 "consequently, the dependent origination with its twelve factors, > revolving within the linking of cause and effect is established as > having > no beginning" > 303 "Ignorance here is 'no theory' and 'wrong theory' > > Also consider an earlier post where I noted thatBuddhaghosa > also taught "that the structure of conditions is present not only in a > multiple consciousness but also in each single consciousness as well" > (see > dispeller of delusion and also note 48 of Visuddhimagga). In the > Visuddhimagga it is noted that the factor of resultant consciousness > does > not only refer to rebirth consciousness but also xvii 126 "in the > course > of an individual existence or continuity" There are several paragraphs > about this. > ====== > Now I want to look at the matter of other worlds, hells and animals > and so > forth. Venerable Buddhadasa refers to this in paragraph 39 page 14 and > suggests that these actually refer to this life. So that "if someone > is a > state of agitation and anxiety that means that a state of being in > hell > exists... And these are real hells, more frightful than those hells > beneath the ground that eternalists believe in" As venerable > Buddhadasa > notes sometimes the buddha used conventional speech (vohara-sacca) > and at > other times he used speech that refers to actual realities (paramattha > sacca). In conventional speech we are now alive and living on the > human > plane. We see other beings living on another plane - the animal > plane. The > other planes(hells heavens) mentioned in the texts we do not usually > see, > hence some people believe that only the human and animal plane exist. > Actually, according to the Dhamma, in the truest sense there are no > humans, no animals no > "us" even. But there are dhammas - ephemeral, conditioned phenomena - > arising and passing away. At this time, in this world, those streams > of > conditioned phenomena known conventionally as Stephen or robert > include > many pleasant moments (intermittently). In some planes pleasant > moments > are much more frequent and in others much less frequent. > In the salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation)- (which > Ven. > Buddhadasa quotes) > "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. > There whatever form one sees with the eye is underdesirable, > never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. whatever > sound..whatever taste..whatever odour..whatever tactile > object..whatever mental phenomenon one cognises with the mind is > undesirable.disagreeable..."endquote > > Now, in this world, there are in reality no humans, computers, > trees: these are only the shadows of the ultimate dhammas > appearing. What appears to eyesense is different colours. > Sometimes the moment of seeing is the result of kusala kamma > (good kamma) and in that case the object will be pleasing to > some degree. At other times, in this plane, the moment of seeing > is the result of past akusala kamma- and in that case the object > will be unpleasant to some degree. > The same for the denizens of hell except that the eye conscious > moments are the result of past akusala kamma and hence there is > usually no opportunity for pleasant results. > > Venerable Buddhadasa suggests that "If there is stupidity , then the > state of being an animal arises..if there is sensual pleasure of > various > kinds and intensities then one of the heavenly states arise...All of > these > states are more real than those talked about which will be experienced > after entering the coffin".Endquote > > I think it is true that we can infer to a degree the nature of other > existences by understanding those momentary states of mind that arise > in > this life and so I don't think it is wrong to emphasise this aspect. > But I believe the Buddha taught the planes of existence with a view > to the > real nature of the world. I think accepting this doesn't have to make > one > terrified of future lives or hopeful of heavenly pleasures. I think it > acts to force one more onto the present because one knows that life > now - > which is only seeing, hearing, atsting, touching, thinking etc - is no > different from life in the past and it will be just like that in the > future. It means one becomes intent on understanding this moment and > how > the factors of the dependent origination work their ways. > best wishes > robert > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11236 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) Howard Thanks for your comments (below) on 2 aspects of the teachings that are both of direct relevance to the understanding of the present moment. > … The Buddha presented a complete program of practice which, > if undertaken properly, for sufficient time, will lead to the arising of > insight and ultimate liberation. I would not see the Buddha as teaching that the development of insight is a question of following a 'program of practice'. I realise that this is how Buddhism is presented by and large, but I believe such a view to be misconceived. It is not like there is curriculum of some sort; the teachings are an explanation of cause and effect, and what the Buddha has done is to give us the *necessary prerequisites* for the development of insight leading to enlightenment. But even in a conventional curriculum scenario (e.g., for academic achievement), I suspect that you and I would still differ on the role that volitional effort has to play, Howard ;-). I would say that a far more important and fundamental factor would be the underlying motivation, in the sense of seeing the value in attaining the final goal (in this case, the value of successful graduation on completion of the curriculum). Given that motivation, the volitional effort follows naturally as and when required. Without that motivation, volitional effort is by and large ineffective and anyway can not be sustained for long. In the dhamma, the underlying motivation is said to be a 'sense of urgency' (sorry, no references to hand). This is the motivation that will generate the necessary 'right effort' of kusala. And this sense of urgency is ultimately an appreciation of the dangers of ignorance and of attachment to becoming, in other words, of continuation in the cycle of existence. > But we have a choice: We can follow the Buddha's directions - and that > requires will! - or not. We exercise volition all the time. Some volitional > actions are harmful, some neutral, some helpful. If we do not refrain from > the harmful ones and pursue the useful ones - and such refraining and pursuit > is right effort! - then we will continue in our ignorance, bound by wrong > understanding, craving, and aversion. It is of course true to say that we exercise volition all the time, and that the resultant actions vary in their moral quality. However, the question we are discussing here is a more focussed one than that; as I see it, we are trying to sort out the role (if any) assigned to volitional will/effort in the teachings. You suggest that refraining from harmful actions is right effort. I have no argument with that, insofar as you refer to the actual moment of refraining. But is it necessary that a moment of refraining should be preceded by volitional effort? Surely not. The refraining may arise spontaneously (unprompted = 'asangkharika') either because the temptation for the harmful action was weak or because of a strongly developed sense of right and wrong (hiri and otappa). Yet despite the absence of any preceding volitional effort, there would still be right effort at the moment of refraining. Secondly, even if there is conscious, volitional effort to refrain, it may or may not be followed by the wholesome act of refraining. If the necessary appreciation of the dangers of the particular kind of harmful action in contemplation is not present at that precise moment, there can be no *wholesome* refraining (there may still be *forced* refraining). We can, speaking conventionally, tell/exert/force ourselves to do something; but, to my understanding, kusala can never arise *because of* these factors (it may, however, arise *preceded by* these factors). Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I have copied your entire post below. It, including the > statements by > you and me quoted therein, is a bit lengthy. So what I have done is > pasted > right here two paragraphs of yours which express the the main ideas of > your > post to which I'd like to respond at the moment. > One thing you write is: > "What I meant to say was that *intentional observation of things* > is > not and cannot be the same as the *direct awareness or understanding of > realities* because dhammas/realities cannot be directly experienced by > volitional observation (at least as I understand that term), but only by > > awareness and understanding, qualities whose arising is not dependent on > > volitional action or activity of any kind." > I agree that one cannot *will* insight. It arises, as you are > wont to > say ;-), when conditions for its arising are in place. My position, > however, > is the following: The Buddha presented a complete program of practice > which, > if undertaken properly, for sufficient time, will lead to the arising of > > insight and ultimate liberation. It is much like a traveller who well > knows > the way to a distant city having given precise directions there. But for > us > to get to that city, the directions must not only be read and > understood, but > followed. Doing so is an exercise of volition. Animals don't make the > trip - > they lack the understanding. For the most part, devas don't make the > trip - > they lack the motivation, the inclination, the will. Even most humans > don't > make the trip, for many reasons including mainly ignorance of the > possibility > of even making it. However, of those humans whose lives are not > completely > desperate nor utterly wonderful, and who have learned of the possibility > and > worth of making a trip to that golden city, and who even have confidence > that > the directions there are correct, most will not actually exercise the > will to > make the trip, arduous as it is, or, if so, only haltingly, with > repeated > false starts, hesitations, detours, and postponements. Only strong, > courageous, consistent exertion of will can succeed. Oh, one can point > to > those folks who, "because of conditions" entered the stream upon hearing > a > sutta, or being directly lead by the words of a living Buddha. But those > > conditions, those accumulations, had to have been created by a previous > walking of the Buddha's path. After all, the Buddha's path *is* ekayana, > and > nothing comes from nothing. > You also write: > "I think that by definition any form of volitional action on our > part > is bound to be coloured by the very ignorance, wrong view and desire for > > results that we believe to be the cause of our bondage to this round of > existence." > This and some other statements you have made appear to have the > flavor > of randomness and dependence on luck. I'm sure that is not your > intention, > but it is something I have consistently detected. Randomness and > dependence > on luck are unrelated to the Dhamma. As I wrote above, nothing comes > from > nothing. I think there is a danger in conflating impersonality and lack > of > (total) control with randomness and dependence on luck. > Truly, not only our volition, but all of our mental function is > colored by ignorance. We seem to be a "self" dealing with > mind-independent, > self-existing "external things". That's where we are! That's where we > begin. > But we have a choice: We can follow the Buddha's directions - and that > requires will! - or not. We exercise volition all the time. Some > volitional > actions are harmful, some neutral, some helpful. If we do not refrain > from > the harmful ones and pursue the useful ones - and such refraining and > pursuit > is right effort! - then we will continue in our ignorance, bound by > wrong > understanding, craving, and aversion. > > With metta, > Howard 11237 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 10:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Howard A further point from your same message as my reply of a moment ago. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ...... > I don't make a really big deal out > of the jhanas per se. My point is only that equanimity and holding the > defilements at bay simply make clear seeing easier. The Buddha taught > the development of calm for good reason, and as part of the path. If I read you correctly here, Howard, you see a fairly direct and immediate connection between the development of calm, the consequent suppression of defilements, and the (easier) arising of insight. As you know, you and I disagree on the need for a specific practice of the development of calm and the suppression of the defilements ;-). But putting that aside for the moment, that still leaves a large chunk of the day to get through. What do you see as being the practice outside the period during which one is developing calm, or before the defilements have been suppressed? Surely the teachings have relevance to the present moment regardless of the level of calm or other form of kusala. Do you see the potential, given the right grasp of the teachings, for the arising of awareness of any presently appearing reality (be it seeing, visible object, attachment, unpleasant feeling or whatever)? Jon 11238 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 11:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vipallasa's Dear Jonothan, > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] > > Kom, Nina and all > > Many thanks for posting the summary of the recent > Bay Area talk. I would > like echo Nina's comments in her post to you > about your substantial and > much appreciated contribution to the discussion > on the list here. K. Jack is back from his retreat in Thailand. I will report when there is another interesting subject that comes up. > I don't want to burden you further, so I will > direct this question to > everyone. Could we possibly have some daily-life > examples of the 3 > categories and 4 objects of vipallasa's, please. > I would be interested to > discuss further. Thanks. > I think this is a subject that is difficult to give an example. The reason is that the dhammas related to Vipallasa are two: moha and dithi. Moha arises with all akusala, so when there is akusala (for us, different for the ariyans), I understand it to be vipallassa of 2 (citta, and sanna) by 4 (impermanence as permanence, dukkha as sukka, anatta as atta, and asubha as subha). If dithi also co-arises, then it is a vipallassa of 3 by 4. Whenever there is a akusala, moha prevents the citta from seeing the realities as they are, and therefore, there is accumulation of all the 4 vipallassa. When I enjoy seeing a pretty woman, it is a vipallassa of 2x4, with the asubha as subha being the most prominent, but all other vipallassa's are being accumulated at that moment. The gradual lessening of vipallassa is probably as difficult to give an example. If there is a panna cognizing the visible object as just a dhamma (Kayanupassana), then at that point, all 4 vipallasas are being lessened but with the asubha as subha being the most prominent. kom 11239 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > I think the following post of yours is very good - clear, to the > point, realistic (though conventional .. oh, gee! ;-)), and not > doctrinnaire. thanks....you're most welcome to tell me when my posts do sound 'doctrinnaire';-) Actually, I find it can be very therapeutic to write here when there is a 'real issue' going on..by the time I'd finished I was no longer thinking about 'my' problem, but looking at the wider picture from the dhamma perspective. > With regard to your client, we just can't know what of that complex > event is > kamma vipaka of yours and what is not. I suspect that the *original* > non-paying was not. I suspect that your finding that unpleasant may have > been > just an automatic evaluation (or, better, the vipaka of being human). I > suspect that your internal reaction of anger may have been kamma vipaka, > and > that your angry verbal response was akusala. I agree that we cannot possibly know all the intricate conditions at play. However, I think we can begin to understand that whenever we are thinking in terms of the stories and situations, that these are different from the precise dhammas which are kamma, vipaka, dosa and so on. Certainly the anger and angry response are akusala and may produce new kamma (depending on strength). They cannot be considered as vipaka though, however 'automatic'. But I can suspect what I > will, > and that won't change the facts. Bottom line: We just don't know. Like you say, we may have our suspicions and there may be a little intellectual understanding, but directly understanding realities such as seeing or hearing as vipaka, different from the feelings or anger which arise on account of it, is not so simple. Better to know we don't know, so we can consider more and occasionally have a little glimmer;-) This is a rushed post...i'm busy with accounts and packing before a 5am departure tomorrow morning for Thailand over Chinese New Year. We'll be away for 8 days with limited internet, but will be checking in daily, I hope, in between the surf in Samui and then the discussions in Bkk. Thanks again for your kind comments, Howard and look f/w to reading all the posts on the beach;-)) Sarah ============================ p.s. the client tells me he's had a change of heart (very prompted), so hopefully that story will have a happy ending by the time I return too;-) 11240 From: Lucy Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma/view/paticcasamuppada Dear Robert Thank you for the very clear explanation. (Also in general for all your posting on these lists) Best wishes Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 11:33 AM Subject: [dsg] kamma/view/paticcasamuppada > Dear Lucy and Howard, > I thought you might be interested in some more about kamma as it relates > to the sutta you posted: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21 > Moliyasivaka Sutta > To Sivaka > 11241 From: Lucy Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" > > Actually, I find it can be very therapeutic to write here when there is a > 'real issue' going on..by the time I'd finished I was no longer thinking > about 'my' problem, but looking at the wider picture from the dhamma > perspective. > Dear Sarah It can be very therapeutic to read about someone else's 'real issues', amazing how familiar they can be to a distant reader : ) ... it's very helpful to know how fellow travellers deal with those real issues and how they place those issue within the dhamma perspective. To Sarah, Jon and everyone else : Happy Year of the Horse ! Lucy 11242 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: an old friend op 09-02-2002 06:01 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > --- azita gill wrote: > > >> hello Jon and others, >> upon inspecting my "bookcase" I 've >> discovered some wonderful dhamma literature which I've >> had for ages but-you know, conditions weren't right >> for me to pull it out and study-I'm really glad to >> have the opportunity to study again and have so >> appreciated this group. > > Great news, Helen. I remember from the old days that you have a real > interest in understading the present moment. I'm sure this focus has not > been entirely absent during the past few (now let's see, that must be 20 > or so) years. Dear Helen, that is great to hear from you. Sarah mentioned baby Zoe and how I rember her! She was crying in the train in Sri Lanka, but now she is a grown up lady. I remember Sarah's kindness to look after her so that you could attend a dhamma discussion. I liked your post on rupas, I hope you will write more. >H: Sundara and I have regular contact. He is now in Oz >> and I have encouraged him to join and I'm sure he >> will. have lost contact with Richard altho. think I >> know where he is. Laurence Mills, used to be >> Khantipalo, lives in Cairns, runs a Buddhist centre >> which I've attended, however its very Tibetan in style >> and - well i don't go very often. N: I knew Khantipalo, but he will not remember me. He wrote good books, he is very knowledgeable. Could he not join also dsg? H: I'm aware that the above info. probably won't interest >> other people, so more private "goss" I'll send >> directly to you, Jon. > N: Yes, I enjoyed hearing from you and about your interest in the Dhamma. Best wishes from Nina. 11243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 7:19am Subject: India impressions Dear friends, I am planning to put out my draft about the India impressions in small sections for those who would be interested in the discussions with Acharn Sujin. I found the points she stressed very valuable and I would like to share them with others. This draft has not been put on a website yet. Nina. Here is the Intro: Introduction Preserving the Buddha¹s Teachings In October 2001 we joined a large group of Thai pilgrims led by our friend in Dhamma and teacher Acharn (the Thai word for teacher) Sujin Boriharnwanaket, to the Buddhist sites in India. We still have the opportunity to pay respect to the excellent qualities of the Buddha and the arahats, and to recollect the teachings contained in the Tipiìaka. But for the Buddha, there would be no way to understand our life as it really is: phenomena that arise and then fall away immediately. We would not be able to develop the understanding that sees things as they really are: impermanent, unsatisfactory (dukkha) and non-self. Only this understanding leads to the eradication of ignorance, wrong view and all other defilements. The Buddha¹s teachings have been corrupted in the course of time and eventually they will disappear. Today we still have the opportunity to study the teachings, to consider them thoroughly and to apply them, so that we gain understanding of what our life really is: seeing, colour, hearing, sound, feeling, thinking and the other phenomena as they present themselves one at a time at this very moment. In this way we truly take our refuge in the Dhamma. Throughout our journey Acharn Sujin taught us about the reality appearing at this moment because only understanding of the present moment can lead to the elimination of clinging to the concept of self. She taught with a great sense of urgency in view of the eventual disappearance of the teachings. Mr. Suwat Chansuvityanant and his son Mr. Pakabutr were in charge of the organisation of the tour, just as many times before when we made this pilgrimage. We visited as usual Lumbini, the Buddha¹s birth place, Bodhgaya where he attained enlightenment, Sarnath, the place of his first sermon and Kusinåra where he passed finally away. Our journey brought us also again to Savatthí, Råjagaha where we climbed the Vulture¹s Peak, Nålandå, the Bamboo Grove and Vesalí 1 . In addition, a few other places were included most people had not visited before. We came to Saòkassa, the place were the Buddha descended from the ³Heaven of the Thirtythree², after having explained the Abhidhamma to his mother. We also visited Kapilavatthu in Nepal, where he as a Bodhisatta grew up, and we visited the park where he saw an old man, a sick man, a dead man and a monk. We visited the place where Cunda offered the Buddha his last meal and also the river where he took his last bath before he finally passed away in Kusinåra. Kosambí was also included, but not all of us went there since it was too far. Most of the holy places we visited were already described by the Chinese monk Chi Fah Hian who in the fifth century A.D. traveled all the way from the China of the Sung Dynasty to India and Sri Lanka in order to seek complete copies of the Buddhist scriptures and the Rules of the Vinaya 2. It was very striking to find many places exactly as described by this monk 1600 years ago! In Saòkassa the remnants of Asoka¹s column are still there. In Kapilavatthu we paid respect at the Eastern Gate of the Palace where the royal prince Siddhatta left the city in order to go forth from worldly life. In Savatthí we had Dhamma discussion at the place where, Fah Hian tells us, ³the Buddha resided for a long time and expounded the Dhamma for the salvation of men.² With regard to Sarnath, where the Buddha began to turn the Wheel of the Dhamma, the Chinese monk wrote: ² in all these places towers (stupas) have been erected which still exist². We paid respect at these same stupas! In the course of time the holy places were neglected for many centuries. Bodhgaya and Sarnath were in a deplorable condition and wild beasts were roaming there. The Head Monk in Sarnath, the Ven. Kahawatte Sri Sumedha, told us about Anagarika Dharmapala who made great efforts to restore the holy places at the beginning of the twentieth century. After a life-long struggle to overcome all problems and legal battles the temple at Sarnath was built under his supervision, and relics of the Buddha that were given to the Mahå-Bodhi Society were placed in this temple in a vault underneath the pedestal of the Buddha image. When we were in Sarnath we had the opportunity to pay respect to the Buddha¹s relics which are shown only once a year. However, on the occasion of our visit they were taken out by the Singhalese monks who are guarding them and they were placed on Acharn Sujin¹s head. After that we all had the opportunity to pay respect. Another holy place that was until recently neglected is the place where the Buddha preached the Mahå-Satipaììhåna Sutta, the Discourse on Mindfulness. This is in Kailash, in the region which was formerly called Kuru. The place is marked by a rock with an old inscription commemorating the preaching of the Sutta and a concrete roof has been erected over it. Even two years ago we had to step over dirt to reach this stone. I had written about the state of this place to a friend and former colleague of us of the Indian diplomatic service, Mr. S.K. Singh. He visited the people living around this place, belonging to the lowest caste, the caste of the ³Untouchables². He spoke to the families, especially to the mothers, explaining that the parents should educate their children in good morality according to the principles of the Lord Buddha. He persuaded the Department of Archaeology and the New Delhi Development Authority to take care of the place and as a consequence a high iron fence has been erected around it and a caretaker has been engaged to clean up the grounds. The Forest Department arranged for trees to be planted and we could see the young trees placed in pots. Lodewijk, my husband, and I were happily surprised of the change in outlook of this place and are most grateful to S.K. Singh. As soon as the group from Thailand arrived in Delhi we told them about this and Acharn Sujin wanted to go there immediately. We all climbed up to the old rock with the inscription and paid respect. In this place the development of satipaììhåna has been explained which is specifically the teaching of the Buddha; no other teacher has taught this. Mindfulness of all realities, mental phenomena and physical phenomena, as they appear in our daily life is the greatest respect shown to the Buddha. Acharn Sujin spoke untiringly and with great patience about the development of right understanding. I am most grateful for the way she has given us guidance by explaining about the realities appearing at the present moment. I greatly appreciate all her Dhamma talks given day after day. For the writing of this book I used the discussions we held, material from tapes and from the scriptures and commentaries which relate to the subjects we discussed. ***** Footnotes 1. For the description of these places, see my ³In Asoka¹s Footsteps². 2. Travels of Fah-Hian and Sung-Yam, translated by Samuel Beal, Asian Educational Services, New Delhi, 1996. ISBN: 81-206-0824-0. 11244 From: Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) Hi, Jon - There is much in the following that I agree with, for example the relevance of motivation and underlying sense urgency for effective volition. Where we differ is, in part, a matter of emphasis. I detect a flavor of "randomness" in your analysis, a randomness tending towards the nihilist pole of wrong view, whereas my tendency is towards the opposite substantialist pole of wrong view. But most precisely, where we differ is on the issue of whether the Buddha provided a training program (my position) or only a statement of what conditions foster what results (your apparent position). With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/10/02 1:15:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Thanks for your comments (below) on 2 aspects of the teachings that are > both of direct relevance to the understanding of the present moment. > > > … The Buddha presented a complete program of practice which, > > if undertaken properly, for sufficient time, will lead to the arising of > > insight and ultimate liberation. > > I would not see the Buddha as teaching that the development of insight is > a question of following a 'program of practice'. I realise that this is > how Buddhism is presented by and large, but I believe such a view to be > misconceived. It is not like there is curriculum of some sort; the > teachings are an explanation of cause and effect, and what the Buddha has > done is to give us the *necessary prerequisites* for the development of > insight leading to enlightenment. > > But even in a conventional curriculum scenario (e.g., for academic > achievement), I suspect that you and I would still differ on the role that > volitional effort has to play, Howard ;-). I would say that a far more > important and fundamental factor would be the underlying motivation, in > the sense of seeing the value in attaining the final goal (in this case, > the value of successful graduation on completion of the curriculum). > Given that motivation, the volitional effort follows naturally as and when > required. Without that motivation, volitional effort is by and large > ineffective and anyway can not be sustained for long. > > In the dhamma, the underlying motivation is said to be a 'sense of > urgency' (sorry, no references to hand). This is the motivation that will > generate the necessary 'right effort' of kusala. And this sense of > urgency is ultimately an appreciation of the dangers of ignorance and of > attachment to becoming, in other words, of continuation in the cycle of > existence. > > > But we have a choice: We can follow the Buddha's directions - and that > > requires will! - or not. We exercise volition all the time. Some > volitional > > actions are harmful, some neutral, some helpful. If we do not refrain > from > > the harmful ones and pursue the useful ones - and such refraining and > pursuit > > is right effort! - then we will continue in our ignorance, bound by > wrong > > understanding, craving, and aversion. > > It is of course true to say that we exercise volition all the time, and > that the resultant actions vary in their moral quality. However, the > question we are discussing here is a more focussed one than that; as I > see it, we are trying to sort out the role (if any) assigned to volitional > will/effort in the teachings. > > You suggest that refraining from harmful actions is right effort. I have > no argument with that, insofar as you refer to the actual moment of > refraining. But is it necessary that a moment of refraining should be > preceded by volitional effort? Surely not. The refraining may arise > spontaneously (unprompted = 'asangkharika') either because the temptation > for the harmful action was weak or because of a strongly developed sense > of right and wrong (hiri and otappa). Yet despite the absence of any > preceding volitional effort, there would still be right effort at the > moment of refraining. > > Secondly, even if there is conscious, volitional effort to refrain, it may > or may not be followed by the wholesome act of refraining. If the > necessary appreciation of the dangers of the particular kind of harmful > action in contemplation is not present at that precise moment, there can > be no *wholesome* refraining (there may still be *forced* refraining). > > We can, speaking conventionally, tell/exert/force ourselves to do > something; but, to my understanding, kusala can never arise *because of* > these factors (it may, however, arise *preceded by* these factors). > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11245 From: Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/10/02 1:17:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > A further point from your same message as my reply of a moment ago. > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ...... > > I don't make a really big deal out > > of the jhanas per se. My point is only that equanimity and holding the > > defilements at bay simply make clear seeing easier. The Buddha taught > > the development of calm for good reason, and as part of the path. > > If I read you correctly here, Howard, you see a fairly direct and > immediate connection between the development of calm, the consequent > suppression of defilements, and the (easier) arising of insight. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see a strongly reactive mind, a mind reacting with aversion and aversion, as interfering with mindfulness and clear comprehension. The development of calm is a palliative with regard to this. -------------------------------------------------------- > > As you know, you and I disagree on the need for a specific practice of the > development of calm and the suppression of the defilements ;-). But > putting that aside for the moment, that still leaves a large chunk of the > day to get through. What do you see as being the practice outside the > period during which one is developing calm, or before the defilements have > been suppressed? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see formal meditation practice as merely a part of the total practice. It is useful that there be an ongoing mindfulness practice throughout all one's daily activities. ----------------------------------------------------- Surely the teachings have relevance to the present> moment regardless of > the level of calm or other form of kusala. Do you > see the potential, given the right grasp of the teachings, for the arising > of awareness of any presently appearing reality (be it seeing, visible > object, attachment, unpleasant feeling or whatever)? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course I do. What I also see is that an ongoing practice which includes cultivation of calm creates a layer of peace in the mind that extends beyond formal meditation periods and contributes to one's ongoing mindfulness practice. ------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11246 From: Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hi, Sarah - I'm just responding here to a samll part of your post. In a message dated 2/10/02 7:00:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > With regard to your client, we just can't know what of that complex event > is > > kamma vipaka of yours and what is not. I suspect that the *original* > > non-paying was not. I suspect that your finding that unpleasant may have > > been > > just an automatic evaluation (or, better, the vipaka of being human). I > > suspect that your internal reaction of anger may have been kamma vipaka, > > and > > that your angry verbal response was akusala. > > I agree that we cannot possibly know all the intricate conditions at play. > However, I think we can begin to understand that whenever we are thinking > in terms of the stories and situations, that these are different from the > precise dhammas which are kamma, vipaka, dosa and so on. Certainly the > anger and angry response are akusala and may produce new kamma (depending > on strength). They cannot be considered as vipaka though, however > 'automatic'. > ============================ You are correct. The internal reaction of anger to a feeling is kamma and not vipaka, though, of course, it is conditioned by the mind's accumulations. What I referred to as "automatic," however, was the unpleasant *feeling* resulting from the knowledge of the non-payment, and that feeling, like all feeling, is immediately conditioned by contact (mental contact in this case). I see that specific unpleasant feeling as kamma vipaka due to its dependence on having a human birth, which, itself, is kamma vipaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11247 From: Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 2/10/02 12:22:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Howard: > I see a strongly reactive mind, a mind reacting with aversion and > aversion, as interfering with mindfulness and clear comprehension. The > development of calm is a palliative with regard to this. > =========================== The second 'aversion' was meant to be 'craving'! Guess I need even more calm to support an enhanced mindfulness! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11248 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hello Sarah and all, I find the following two discourses might be relevant for reflection on removing/subdueing hatred/annoyance/aghata. Regards, Victor Anguttara Nikaya V.161 Aghatapativinaya Sutta Removing Annoyance Translated from the Pali by Ñanamoli Thera. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu From The Practice of Loving-kindness (Metta) (WH 7), by Ñanamoli Thera, (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1987). Copyright ©1987 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which annoyance can be entirely removed by a bhikkhu when it arises in him. What are the five? "Loving-kindness can be maintained in being towards a person with whom you are annoyed: this is how annoyance with him can be removed. "Compassion can be maintained in being towards a person with whom you are annoyed; this too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "Onlooking equanimity can be maintained in being towards a person with whom you are annoyed; this too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "The forgetting and ignoring of a person with whom you are annoyed can be practiced; this too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "Ownership of deeds in a person with whom you are annoyed can be concentrated upon thus: 'This good person is owner of his deeds, heir to his deeds, his deeds are the womb from which he is born, his deeds are his kin for whom he is responsible, his deeds are his refuge, he is heir to his deeds, be they good or bad.' This too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "These are the five ways of removing annoyance, by which annoyance can be entirely removed in a bhikkhu when it arises in him." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Thu 17 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-161a.html Anguttara Nikaya X.80 Aghata Sutta Hatred Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "There are these ten ways of subduing hatred. Which ten? [1] "Thinking, 'He has done me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred. [2] "Thinking, 'He is doing me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred. [3] "Thinking, 'He is going to do me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred. [4] "Thinking, 'He has done harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred. [5] "Thinking, 'He is doing harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred. [6] "Thinking, 'He is going to do harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred. [7] "Thinking, 'He has aided people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred. [8] "Thinking, 'He is aiding people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred. [9] "Thinking, 'He is going to aid people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred. [10] "One does not get worked up over impossibilities. "These are ten ways of subduing hatred." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Thu 17 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an10-080.html --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Chris, Howard, Ranil, Rob K & friends, > > By way of a diversion, let me add my own daily life experience this > morning and try to make it relevant to 9-11, Holocaust, Sri Lanka' s plight > and indigenous Australians later. > > I found out last night (by email) that a client is considering not paying > quite a large fee due to me. I went to bed `obsessed' and worried about > this and was unable to relax or even read posts . This morning I phoned > the client, hoping to sort the matter out, but in spite of best > intentions, somewhat lost my `cool' and probably reduced the chance of > repayment further;-( > > It may seem (and of course I'd like to kid myself that this is so) that > the problem has been caused entirely by the naughty client. Of course, as > Howard says, conditions are extremely complex and if the client hadn 't > sent the email and had behaved properly, there wouldn't have been the same > set of unpleasant experiences on my part. > > However, what unpleasant experiences were there anyway? Last night I read > the email. I saw visible object only. Immeditately there were stories and > proliferations and plenty of dosa and also mana (`how dare he treat me > like this' and so on). What was the real problem, if not the dosa, mana > and other kilesa arising? This morning when I spoke to him for 10mins > only, I really didn't even hear anything very unpleasant at all. He didn't > raise his voice or even speak impolitely. Again the problem was the > thinking and proliferating about his bad motives and actions, the taking > `me' as being so very important and the clinging to this version of events > with so very little awareness of any realities. > ***** > As Rob K recently quoted from the Vism (in his post about > paticcasamuppada): > > > 117"when he is cofused about independently-arisen > > states, instead of taking the occurence of formations > > to be due to ignorance etc., he figures that it is a > > self that knows or does not know, that acts and causes > > action..." > As Rob adds: > I'd like to say that truly there is no one > > who receives results but that results arise by > > conditions (just to be pedantic). From the > > Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere > > arising of fruit (vipaka);" > ***** > By understanding more about different phenomena now, we'll undersatand > more about how momentary vipaka (result of kamma) is and how it is in fact > not the vipaka which hurts or damages, but the mental states which follow > the vipaka and makes it into a big story. > > Last week I tripped on some steep steps and hurt my knee. There was no > client to blame, no Sri Lankan or other terrorists and yet I started > getting angry with the `stupid steps' and the design or the building. As > Howard and Rob K have indicated, the conditions for any kamma to bring a > result are very, very complicated. Whether or not we can accept the > unpleasant bodily experience or seeing at this moment as being the result > of kamma, we can at least begin to understand the difference between these > realities and the proceeding ones which cling, grasp or are averse to the > expereinces. > > We never know what kamma or other conditions will bring what result. Again > Rob K just quoted this: > ***** > > ...........They say it is pretty > > much unpredictable (except to the Buddha) when the > > results will arise because of the many other > > conditions that support or impede kamma. Here is a > > quote from the Tipitaka: > > " Threefold, however, is the fruit of karma: ripening > > during the life-time (dittha-dhamma-vedaníya-kamma), > > ripening in the next birth (upapajja-vedaníya-kamma), > > ripening in later births (aparápariya-vedaníya kamma) > > ...." (A.VI, 63). > ***** > Do we have an idea of national identity or group? How is this national > identity experienced? Does it help us to develop any awareness to cling to > this idea of identity or to find ourselves important in anyway? > > It may seem that groups share the same results of kamma, and indeed there > may be certain factors in common, conventionally speaking. Just as there > are conditions for us to all read the posts here, there are conditions for > groups of people to all suffer at the same time or all hear the Buddha > preach the dhamma. So conventionally, perhaps we can talk about `group > kamma'. In fact, when we look at the same words on the computer screen, > seeing sees different visible objects for each of us, and these are > different at each moment too. The thinking which follows, conjures up > different stories and the accumulated tendencies of ignorance, attachment > and understanding will arise accordingly, dependent again on so many > conditions. Beginning to understand realities little by little is the way > we see that we really live alone and only ever experience the results of > our own deeds and other conditioning factors. > ***** > > 161 "................. > > So a mere material and immaterial state, arisen when > > it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, > > saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not > > a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither > > transmigrated from the past nor yet is it manifested > > here without cause from that"....... " > ***** > Thanks Rob for all the helpful quotes which I've appreciated as I write. > > I fully appreciate the sensitive nature of some of the issues I raised in > the first paragraph of this post and I certainly haven't meant to > trivialise these by discussing mundane 'mishaps', but I hope that may be > some conditions for useful reflection. Please let me know if I seem to > have 'missed the mark';-) > > Sarah 11249 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 Hello, [snip] > Actually, according to the Dhamma, in the truest sense there are no > humans, no animals no > "us" even. [snip] > Now, in this world, there are in reality no humans, computers, > trees: [snip] Quite an extreme view as I see it. About the view "there is no humans, no animals", let's see what the Buddha taught on birth, aging and death in Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta Analysis of Dependent Co-arising http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html "Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth." As I understand it, the Buddha did not deny that there are various beings. Regards, Victor 11250 From: Lucy Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Watching experiences vs. Right Effort (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Thanks Jon! I nearly missed this post - took me 5 days to find it. Even after the 'silent weekend', I still have lots of messages to read ! After posting my question, I looked in the archive and found several previous discussions making things clearer. It's helpful to know what "Right Effort" is, and to be aware of wrong view creeping in disguised as "the will to make a greater effort". Slowly things are falling into place here. But, as you say, it's easier said than done : ) Best wishes, Lucy From: "Jonothan Abbott" > > Now, the question from a relative beginner is: isn't this > > practice of watching experiences at the conceptual level part of the > > Right > > Effort from which the conditions will eventually arise (as well as from > > application of the other 7)? Although not real awareness, the > > 'intentional, > > conceptual watching' seems to be very necessary, at least to 'my' > > conditions. I once practised with a school that goes with panna alone, > > but > > that kept me feeling lost (not knowing what to do when not sitting in > > meditation - or even during meditation!) and eventually regressing. In > > the > > end, had to admit that it wasn't the right path for 'my' conditions and > > that more effort at the conceptual level was needed - even though that > > way > > of practice seems to fit other people like a glove! > To my understanding, Lucy, and also as a relative beginner, Right Effort > is quite a different thing from the practice of watching experiences > (which, as you say, is at the conceptual level). > > Firstly, Right Effort is the effort that is associated with a particular > level of kusala (wholesomeness/skilfulness) only, namely, the kusala of > the moment of awareness of a characteristic of a reality (satipatthana). > So it is not associated with all kusala mind-states. Secondly, Right > Effort is in fact the effort that is embodied in the kusala consciousness > at those moments. It is the effort *of* a moment of satipatthana, not the > effort *to have* a moment of satipatthana. > > In a recent post to Howard that you may have seen I discussed a sutta that > sets out the factors that need to be developed if insight/satipatthana is > to be developed (they are, association with 'superior persons', hearing > the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the > Dhamma.). From this sutta and elsewhere in the texts and commentaries, I > think it is clear that it is these 4 factors, and not any 'intentional > watching', or anything involving 'effort' of the conventional kind, that > can lead to the arising of awareness. That awareness will then be > accompanied by the factor of right effort. > > So whether we follow a practice that places importance on 'intentional > watching' or on 'panna alone', we should bear in mind that in either case > any idea of the need for or value of volitional effort will probably be > indicative of a latent wrong view (not to mention, of course, attachment > to achieving results). > > > It's very true that there is only the conditions that are arising now, > > everything else is like a varnish that we fabricate. And we can get into > > a > > real mess if we don't recognise that (been there, done that!). But > > within > > those conditions isn't there a slot for Right Effort, viriya ? Please > > correct me if this is silly, every moment 'we' create the conditions > > that > > will arise 'later' and modify existing tendencies, habits, etc., so, > > even > > if the effort isn't the 'real thing', isn't it part of the path? > My thoughts on this would be that if there is an idea that we need or > ought to be doing something to create the right conditions (present or > future), then there is again the same mistaken idea about volitional > effort. > > The other question that comes to mind is, what to do when there's an > > inner > > urge to do more? I know this can be false, but could it also be true > > aspiration? Part of the conditions? I've been concerned with this > > question > > for a while now, not knowing whether to take it seriously or dismiss it. > > My > > reaction varies from wanting to shave my head at once to 'if I ignore > > it, > > it'll go away' - would you or anyone have a 'Middle Way' to suggest? > > > > Duh!, I'm sure this has been discussed before - better go and read old > > messages in the archive to find out. > I think the middle way would be to see any 'inner urge' as it is, for what > it is (and this is indeed the function of insight/satipatthana/vipassana). > I know that that's a lot easier said than done, but just to realise at an > intellectual level that this is indeed the middle way, and why that should > be so, is a good start. It still doesn't stop us wanting to 'deal with' > it by one means or another, but then such notions are accumulated and > deeply rooted in all of us. Only the stream-enterer no longer has wrong > view. 11251 From: Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 Hi, Victor - In a message dated 2/10/02 1:48:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, victoryu@s... writes: > Hello, > > [snip] > > Actually, according to the Dhamma, in the truest sense there are no > > humans, no animals no > > "us" even. > [snip] > > Now, in this world, there are in reality no humans, computers, > > trees: > [snip] > > Quite an extreme view as I see it. > > About the view "there is no humans, no animals", let's see what the Buddha > taught on birth, aging and death in Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 > Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta > Analysis of Dependent Co-arising > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html > > "Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, > graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of > the > various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. > Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, > completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, > interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that > group > of beings, that is called death. > > "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, > coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of > the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth." > > As I understand it, the Buddha did not deny that there are various beings. > > Regards, > Victor > ================================= Of course there are these things, so to speak. It seems to me that you readily accept conventional existence, as do I. Do you also consider conventional existence to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (to use a legal phrase)? I do not. I can conventionally and meaningfully speak of "Howard", but upon careful and detailed inspection, I can find no "Howard". Comments? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11252 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Laughter and Humour Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > The wrong sort? and who judges > that?...Or is it that > you automatically lose your sense of humour the more > progress you > make? I wouldn't worry too much about eliminating laughter. What I do is assess my practice in terms of what items are causing me the greatest suffering, and I address those problems with the highest priority first. I have noticed that my laughter and sense of humor has changed over the years. -fk 11253 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 Hello Howard, I am not interested in metaphysical argument. It seems to me that the view "there are no humans, no animals" is held to be true by some as the so-called ultimate truth, which is in direct contradiction with the so-called conventional truth "there are humans, animals." As I understand it, there is no such contradiction in the teaching of the Buddha. The distinction between the so-called conventional truth/reality and the so-called ultimate truth/reality that leads to contradiction is much fabricated and unnecessary. And as far as I can see, using the terms "conventionally speaking" or "conventional speech", is a convenient way to get around the contradiction or inconsistency. Anyway, as I see it, the view "there are no humans, no animals" is an extreme view, not leading to the cessation of dukkha, not worth holding onto. That is how I understand it. Regards, Victor > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 2/10/02 1:48:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, > victoryu@s... writes: > > > > Hello, > > > > [snip] > > > Actually, according to the Dhamma, in the truest sense there are no > > > humans, no animals no > > > "us" even. > > [snip] > > > Now, in this world, there are in reality no humans, computers, > > > trees: > > [snip] > > > > Quite an extreme view as I see it. > > > > About the view "there is no humans, no animals", let's see what the Buddha > > taught on birth, aging and death in Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 > > Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta > > Analysis of Dependent Co-arising > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html > > > > "Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, > > graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of > > the > > various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. > > Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, > > completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, > > interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that > > group > > of beings, that is called death. > > > > "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, > > coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of > > the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth." > > > > As I understand it, the Buddha did not deny that there are various beings. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > ================================= > Of course there are these things, so to speak. It seems to me that you > readily accept conventional existence, as do I. Do you also consider > conventional existence to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the > truth (to use a legal phrase)? I do not. I can conventionally and > meaningfully speak of "Howard", but upon careful and detailed inspection, I > can find no "Howard". Comments? > > With metta, > Howard 11254 From: Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ayatanas Dear Nina and Sarah (& Jon), ............................................. Sarah: I don't think I know Num's aunt, K. Krisana, but Jon does from the Thai sessions. On our last visit he and Jaran were invited to join the Board meeting and K.Krisana was one of the 'experts' there...Like you say, it's great to have her input here and we look forward to Num's direct reports too;-) ........................................ Hmm, Sarah, I better say that I am not sure that I will be able to do the direct report. You know, I am a runner not a reporter, haha. Now, I have found out of that your persistence and your preservation is kind of high off the scale. I turned in my pic and then you finally got Kom's pic. Well, viriya always works it way out, I guess :) I do not even know that my aunt is an expert, she has never told me she is. If my aunt let me call her an expert, I think she is an expert in tolerability, being patient and kind to me for flooding her with questions each week. I do not think that I am obsessive but I think it is vital to know what I do not understand and then ask. I always tell my students that to have a success in studying, a teacher can never work harder than a student. So this time it is my turn to work harder. Hope you and Jon have a good time on Samui; sun, sand and sea. Nina, my aunt is helping K.Veera and K.Kanchana translating, The Conditionality of Life She helps with looking up Thai atthakatha corresponding to the English atthakatha you quoted from. I asked her her that you asked whether you knew her or not. She told me she talked to you more than couple times when you were in Thailand. She would like me to ask you something from the book. From chapter 12 Nutriment-Condition (Ahara-Paccaya) << Thus, at each moment the three mental nutriments of contact, volition and citta SUPPORT and MAINTAIN the dhammas arising together with them, and the rupa produced by them, by the way of nutriment-condition. The mental nutriments can be considered according to the method of the Patthana and also according to the method of the "Dependent Origination" (Paticca samuppada), the chain of conditionality arisen phenomena which cause the continuation of cycle of birth and death117. >> She said that there is only the word "support(uppatampaka)" but no "maintain(araksa/anubala)" in Thai atthakatha Pancappakarana. She stated that paccaya can have various functions; janakasatti, upatampakasatti and also arakasatti. As I understand her question, she said that upatampaka and araka/anubala-satti do not have exactly the same meaning!? OK, I think I can be only a messenger boy this time. I think she'd like to know what version of atthakatha you quoted from. She said that different versions of atthakatha at times have some minor differences and at times there are some extra words. Thanks for your input on similarity between suttanta and abhidhamma. Appreciate. Num 11255 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) ---Dear Lucy, Howard, Victor and all, Thanks for your comments. Great to see you considering so carefully Lucy, in your posts. Victor, Thanks for carrying on the points you brought up on D-l. I'll just repeat them here as they give extra details. You noted that you disagree with the Visuddhimagga and find that Buddhaghosa was holding to an extreme view in his denial of self and being. I found this interesting as my letters were in responses to Buddhadasa of Thailand who thought that the Visuddhimagga and Buddhaghosa went to the opposite extreme and implied a self. ___________ >Victor: Hello Robert, > > Thank you for referring to Visuddhimagga. I have a copy and I checked out > the passage that you referred to. As I understand it from reading the > passages that you referred to, Venerable Buddhaghosa was holding the view "there is merely materiality-mentality, there is no being, no person" and I see it as an extreme view. I don't see how this view fit into what the Buddha taught about birth, aging and death in dependent- origination > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Victor Yu" wrote: > Hello, > > [snip] > > "Actually, according to the Dhamma, in the truest sense there are no > > humans, no animals no > > "us" even. > [snip] > > Now, in this world, there are in reality no humans, computers, > > trees: > [snip] > > Quite an extreme view as I see it. > > About the view "there is no humans, no animals", let's see what the Buddha > taught on birth, aging and death in Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 > Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta > Analysis of Dependent Co-arising > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html > > "Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, > graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the > various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. > Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, > completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, > interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group > of beings, that is called death. > > "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming- to-be, > coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of > the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth." > > As I understand it, the Buddha did not deny that there are various beings. > > Regards, > Victor ________________________________________________________ Robert::Dear Victor, > > This is a good point. It is important to understand the difference > > between conventional and ultimate truth. Venerable Buddhadasa in his > > book 'Dependent Origination" writes p4. "[the buddha]spoke in terms > > of relative truth in order to teach morals to those still befuddled > > with the idea of Eternalism... But the Buddha also spoke in the > > language of ultimate truth in order to teach those who had little > > dust in their eyes so that they could come to an understanding of > > absolute reality(paramattha -dhamma)". > > > > The Visuddhimagga: "XV111 25 "in order to abandon this worldly > > designation of 'a being' and 'a person' more thoroughly, to surmount > > confusion about beings and to establish his mind on the plane of non- > > confusion he makes sure that the meaning defined, namely 'This is > > mere mentality-materiality, there is no person' is confirmed by a > > number of suttas. For this has been said: ..It is ill that rises, ill > > that remains, ill that departs, nothing rises else than ill, and > > nothing ceases else than ill'(S.i, 135) > > XVIII 28 "when there are the five aggregates [as objects of clinging] > > there comes to be the mere term of common usage 'a being' person, yet > > in the ultimate sense , when each component is examined, there is no > > being as a basis for the assumption 'I am' or 'I'; in the ultimate > > sense there is only mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees > > in this way is called correct vision" > > > > The view 'there is no mother , no father' is the view that helping or > > hurting ones mother or father will bring no good or bad results in > > the near or distant future. It is essentially a denial of kamma. > > We live in a world of concepts and so both the ultimate and > > conventional view of things is needed. Thus I think Buddhadasa goes > > too far in saying that relative truth is only for those who can't > > understand more. When we give something to our mother what is there > > in the ultimate sense? There are actually moments of kusala citta, > > wholesome mindstate, and these are paramattha -dhamma, they don't > > belong to anyone. This is the link of kamma in the dependent > > origination and it can bring its pleasant result at anytime . I think > > we should strive to develop understanding of both relative and > > ultimate truth and the difference between them. > > best wishes robert _________________________________________________________ > Regards, > Victor > > > In dhamma-list@y..., "Victor Yu" wrote: > > > Hello, > > > If someone claimed "Actually in the truest sense there are no > > humans, no > > > animals no 'us' even," I would see it as someone holding an exreme > > view, > > > similar to the view "there is no mother, there is no father." I > > have not > > > found that the Buddha ever taught that kind of extreme view, and I > > don't > > > think that kind of view would help in realizing the cessation of > > dukkha. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > >__________ 11256 From: Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 Hi, Victor - In a message dated 2/10/02 7:32:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, victoryu@s... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > I am not interested in metaphysical argument. > > It seems to me that the view "there are no humans, no animals" is held to > be > true by some as the so-called ultimate truth, which is in direct > contradiction with the so-called conventional truth "there are humans, > animals." As I understand it, there is no such contradiction in the > teaching of the Buddha. The distinction between the so-called conventional > truth/reality and the so-called ultimate truth/reality that leads to > contradiction is much fabricated and unnecessary. And as far as I can see, > using the terms "conventionally speaking" or "conventional speech", is a > convenient way to get around the contradiction or inconsistency. > > Anyway, as I see it, the view "there are no humans, no animals" is an > extreme view, not leading to the cessation of dukkha, not worth holding > onto. > > That is how I understand it. > > Regards, > Victor > =========================== Thank you for this reply. It is the clearest, most straightforward explanation of your position that I have seen, and I appreciate it very much. I don't agree with your assessment that contradiction is involved, because I see so-called conventional expression and so-called ultimate expression as being at different levels of meaning/understanding, and actually quite harmonious. But I understand your position, I respect it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11257 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Robert, Thanks for replying. I neither agree nor disagree with the view "there is no being, no person" that Buddhaghosa expressed in Visuddhimagga. I simply don't hold the view "there is no being, no person," nor the view "there is being, there is person." To agree with an extreme view, one falls into the same extreme. To disagree, the opposite. By not holding either extreme view, one has gone beyond both. That is how I understand it. Regards, Victor > ---Dear Lucy, Howard, Victor and all, > Thanks for your comments. Great to see you considering so carefully > Lucy, in your posts. > > Victor, > Thanks for carrying on the points you brought up on D-l. > I'll just repeat them here as they give extra details. You noted that > you disagree with the Visuddhimagga and find that Buddhaghosa was > holding to an extreme view in his denial of self and being. I found > this interesting as my letters were in responses to Buddhadasa of > Thailand who thought that the Visuddhimagga and Buddhaghosa went to > the opposite extreme and implied a self. > ___________ > >Victor: Hello Robert, > > > > Thank you for referring to Visuddhimagga. I have a copy and I > checked out > > the passage that you referred to. As I understand it from reading > the > > passages that you referred to, Venerable Buddhaghosa was holding > the view "there is merely materiality-mentality, there is no being, > no person" and > I see it as an extreme view. I don't see how this view fit into what > the Buddha taught about birth, aging and death in dependent- > origination > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Victor Yu" wrote: > > Hello, > > > > [snip] > > > "Actually, according to the Dhamma, in the truest sense there > are no > > > humans, no animals no > > > "us" even. > > [snip] > > > Now, in this world, there are in reality no humans, computers, > > > trees: > > [snip] > > > > Quite an extreme view as I see it. > > > > About the view "there is no humans, no animals", let's see what the > Buddha > > taught on birth, aging and death in Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 > > Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta > > Analysis of Dependent Co-arising > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html > > > > "Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, > brokenness, > > graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the > faculties of the > > various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called > aging. > > Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, > dying, death, > > completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the > body, > > interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or > that group > > of beings, that is called death. > > > > "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming- > to-be, > > coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] > media of > > the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called > birth." > > > > As I understand it, the Buddha did not deny that there are various > beings. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > ________________________________________________________ > Robert::Dear Victor, > > > This is a good point. It is important to understand the difference > > > between conventional and ultimate truth. Venerable Buddhadasa in > his > > > book 'Dependent Origination" writes p4. "[the buddha]spoke in > terms > > > of relative truth in order to teach morals to those still > befuddled > > > with the idea of Eternalism... But the Buddha also spoke in the > > > language of ultimate truth in order to teach those who had little > > > dust in their eyes so that they could come to an understanding of > > > absolute reality(paramattha -dhamma)". > > > > > > The Visuddhimagga: "XV111 25 "in order to abandon this worldly > > > designation of 'a being' and 'a person' more thoroughly, to > surmount > > > confusion about beings and to establish his mind on the plane of > non- > > > confusion he makes sure that the meaning defined, namely 'This is > > > mere mentality-materiality, there is no person' is confirmed by a > > > number of suttas. For this has been said: ..It is ill that rises, > ill > > > that remains, ill that departs, nothing rises else than ill, and > > > nothing ceases else than ill'(S.i, 135) > > > XVIII 28 "when there are the five aggregates [as objects of > clinging] > > > there comes to be the mere term of common usage 'a being' person, > yet > > > in the ultimate sense , when each component is examined, there is > no > > > being as a basis for the assumption 'I am' or 'I'; in the ultimate > > > sense there is only mentality-materiality. The vision of one who > sees > > > in this way is called correct vision" > > > > > > The view 'there is no mother , no father' is the view that > helping or > > > hurting ones mother or father will bring no good or bad results in > > > the near or distant future. It is essentially a denial of kamma. > > > We live in a world of concepts and so both the ultimate and > > > conventional view of things is needed. Thus I think Buddhadasa > goes > > > too far in saying that relative truth is only for those who can't > > > understand more. When we give something to our mother what is > there > > > in the ultimate sense? There are actually moments of kusala citta, > > > wholesome mindstate, and these are paramattha -dhamma, they don't > > > belong to anyone. This is the link of kamma in the dependent > > > origination and it can bring its pleasant result at anytime . I > think > > > we should strive to develop understanding of both relative and > > > ultimate truth and the difference between them. > > > best wishes > robert > _________________________________________________________ > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > > In dhamma-list@y..., "Victor Yu" wrote: 11258 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 Hello Howard, Thank you for replying. Regards, Victor > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 2/10/02 7:32:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, > victoryu@s... writes: > > > > > > Hello Howard, > > > > I am not interested in metaphysical argument. > > > > It seems to me that the view "there are no humans, no animals" is held to > > be > > true by some as the so-called ultimate truth, which is in direct > > contradiction with the so-called conventional truth "there are humans, > > animals." As I understand it, there is no such contradiction in the > > teaching of the Buddha. The distinction between the so-called conventional > > truth/reality and the so-called ultimate truth/reality that leads to > > contradiction is much fabricated and unnecessary. And as far as I can see, > > using the terms "conventionally speaking" or "conventional speech", is a > > convenient way to get around the contradiction or inconsistency. > > > > Anyway, as I see it, the view "there are no humans, no animals" is an > > extreme view, not leading to the cessation of dukkha, not worth holding > > onto. > > > > That is how I understand it. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > =========================== > Thank you for this reply. It is the clearest, most straightforward > explanation of your position that I have seen, and I appreciate it very much. > I don't agree with your assessment that contradiction is involved, because I > see so-called conventional expression and so-called ultimate expression as > being at different levels of meaning/understanding, and actually quite > harmonious. But I understand your position, I respect it. > > With metta, > Howard 11259 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Dear Jon, Thanks for your response. I appreciate your clear explanation as always. Let me make a few comments in response to your message. 1/ I think it's correct to say that everyone starts with wrong view, and that wrong view continues to one extent or another as long as ignorance persists? 2/ Then the question is, what to do to correct wrong view and foster right view and right practice. 3/ Clearly, reading suttas and understanding the nature of mindfulness, insight and wisdom is very important, with or without the support and clarification of a qualified teacher, which is better than not having one! 4/ Then the question is, during this period of relative delusion, but after one has been convinced of the basic truth of the dhamma and wants to progress, what constitutes correct practice? 5/ To hedge my bets, I would say that practicing mindfulness to the extent possible at each moment in daily life is both a most significant practice and a most significant goal. 6/ I also believe that relatively undistracted periods of meditation is a greatly expedient technique for achieving progress in the qualities that lead to higher attainments. I will leave aside whether it is necessary or not, and just say that I believe it is expedient. If I had come up with this idea myself, I might doubt it, but there is no doubt that there is a great tradition in Buddhism that is many centuries old, promoting meditative practices as a core essential of the Buddhist path. One may argue the extent to which Buddha promoted meditation as an expedient means in the Suttas, but there is no doubt that Buddhists in many traditions all over the world practice mindfulness and insight meditation, whether they follow the breath, note the breath, attempt to observe arising experiences, or attempt to focus on specific objects of mind. It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I meditate. It makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering the phone, jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the day, that all of these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still and observing a less busy field of experience. Is the former a worthy and necessary practice? Yes. Does meditation help to develop this potentiality? To me the answer is a very big yes. One can argue that I may be fooling myself and really developing a satisfying sense of progress while really increasing ignorance in some way, but I don't see why that would be the case, any more than it might be the case if I 'thought' I was becoming more discerning in daily life. If one concentrates on learning something in general, one learns it faster. Meditation is no different than any other study in that sense, it is a concentrated period in which one focuses the mind on the moment. I don't think there is anywhere in the suttas where Buddha says that meditation is a negative or delusory practice. So I find it hard to understand why it seems to be taken as a negative to some extent by yourself and others who follow the Abhidhamma. Am I wrong that this is the case? It seems that there is some caution in doing a specific practice that is not included in studying the suttas and discerning the moment in daily life. Perhaps there is a reason for this, but I don't quite understand it at present. I look forward to your response. Best, Robert Ep. ================================ --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > From the context of your post (ie., in reply to my sutta reference about > the factors for development of insight/for enlightenment), I think the > question you are posing for discussion is this: If a form of practice is > intuitively and self-evidently seen as leading to greater insight, does it > matter that it varies from the factors for development as stated in the > texts? (Hope i've not over-stated you here, Rob) > > The difficulty with this proposition is that we all know from experience > that what seemed intuitively and self-evidently ‘right’ some time ago (for > example, at a former stage of our lives) is now seen in hindsight as the > product of uninformed ideas or misguided aspirations (no matter how > honestly held at the time). > > The explanation for this is I think quite simple; the 'usual suspects' of > ignorance and wrong view about realities, and an unrealistic assessment of > our own capabilities. > > I believe these same factors are still with us today, although perhaps in > somewhat more disguised form. > > I know from other threads, Rob, that you place great importance on having > a thorough conceptual grasp of the nature of nibbana, as explained by the > Buddha, as a proper basis for the practice. I am not sure why, when it > comes to the real essentials of practice, conformity with the texts is > generally seen as being of less importance, or even an unnecessary delay > to embarking on so-called ‘actual practice’. Surely a clear intellectual > grasp of these qualities called mindfulness and insight about which the > Buddha spoke, and of how those qualities are to be developed, is an > indispensable first step. > > No doubt the idea of 'concentrated and repeated attention to the moment > with the least amount of distraction', as mentioned in you post, seems > intuitively self-evident, but to my knowledge nowhere in the texts are the > factors of volitional (forced?) effort and a quiet place given as > prerequisites, in the sense of *must do’s, must have’s*, for the > development of awareness and insight into presently arising realities. > > When you think about it, there is an inherent inconsistency in the idea of > attention that is *to the moment* and yet that requires that moment to be > *with the least amount of distraction*. Surely ‘the moment’ is simply the > moment, with or without perceived distractions. > > Actually, what you refer to as distractions are essentially and ultimately > the same dhammas that we seek to have awareness of and insight into. > Seeing them as distractions simply conceptualises them, and takes us > further away from the present moment. It is really a kind of > 'reification' in the abstract. > > At one level we can accept that it is only the present moment that has any > significance as regards awareness of and insight into dhammas. The fact > that we nevertheless persist in thinking in terms of present moments other > than the *present* present moment (!) suggests that we have only a > superficial appreciation of this. Seeing in ourselves the tendency to shy > away from understanding the presently appearing reality, on whatever > pretext, can be the first step in exposing normally unrecognised wrong > view. > > Jon > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Your post here is very well stated. I want to suggest one possibility, > > which is > > the absurd notion which I none-the-less believe, that wrong view with > > right > > practice can lead to the right result. > > > > The reason I believe this, and I am ready to be challenged, is that it > > is the > > nature of insight that it is an interruption of one's view. Therefore > > any > > practice that leads to true insight will lead to right view, even in a > > practitioner who has the wrong view of self. > > > > What a correct practice means to me is that it is a skillful enough > > technique that > > it is 'view-proof'. It will interrupt wrong view even if the > > practitioner's > > current view of self would fight against it. > > > > Insight is a surprise occurence. It can be cultivated but not planned. > > The > > practice of mindfulness does, I believe, lead to insight, and then wrong > > view is > > gradually replaced by discernment. > > > > In my opinion, it is concentrated and repeated practice in mindfulness > > that leads > > to discernment of the actual nature of the moment. If one can do this > > in daily > > life, no one would argue with this, because that means that the person > > practicing > > this is engaged in meditation, even while going about their normal > > activities. > > But to think that correct practice of meditation does not increase one's > > skill at > > practicing mindfulness does not make sense to me. It seems that > > practice of > > attention to the moment with the least amount of distraction does lead > > to > > increased skill at developing a mindful state, which leads to insight. > > Rather > > than getting tainted fruit because of the wrong view of self, it is this > > kind of > > skill in the moment that eventually transcends and corrects wrong view. > > > > I am speaking as one who is still in a cloudy state of murky > > self-concept, I am > > sure, so I speak of this while bumping into the furniture in the dark, > > but > > never-the-less, I present it for your consideration. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 11260 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Victor Yu" wrote: I neither agree nor disagree with the view "there is > no being, no person" that Buddhaghosa expressed in Visuddhimagga. I simply > don't hold the view "there is no being, no person," nor the view "there is being, there is person." To agree with an extreme view, one falls into the same extreme. To disagree, the opposite. By not holding either extreme view, one has gone beyond both. > That is how I understand it. > Regards, > Victor > _____________________________________ Dear Victor, I think there is more to going beyond than this. Net of views (Bhikkhu Bodhi) p177. "the endless equivocator (amaravikkhepavada)does not approve of the eternalist view of self, or of any other view, he practises equivocation by saying 'I do not take it thus' etc. These statements of his equivocate by repudiating each point on which he is questioned" Query: "Isn't it true that as far as he takes a stand on the side of equivocation, he makes a positive affirmation of the equivocal position?" Reply: "no, because he is utterly deluded about that as well and because the doctrine of equivocation ocurs only by way of rejection"......."he is not called a theorist merely because he resorts to equivocation when asked a question, but because he holds a wrong conviction. For this person actually holds the wrong conviction of eternalism" p178" but how does this view come to be included under eternalsm? Because he does not hold the view of anihilationism." p26 Note from Bodhi explains the meaning of amaravikkhepa: "the theorist who adopt this approach go on hedging without limits, refusing to make a definite assertion".... On p173 the commentary says "that it does not die, thus it is endless" (amara-immortal) best wishes robert 11261 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Robert, Thank you for the reference. Abandoning extreme views is not the same as equivocation. Thanks again, Robert. Regards, Victor > --- > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Victor Yu" wrote: > I neither agree nor disagree with the view "there is > > no being, no person" that Buddhaghosa expressed in Visuddhimagga. > I simply > > don't hold the view "there is no being, no person," nor the > view "there is being, there is person." To agree with an extreme > view, one falls into the same extreme. To disagree, the opposite. > By not holding either extreme view, one has gone beyond both. > > That is how I understand it. > > Regards, > > Victor > > _____________________________________ > > Dear Victor, > I think there is more to going beyond than this. > Net of views (Bhikkhu Bodhi) p177. > "the endless equivocator (amaravikkhepavada)does not approve of the > eternalist view of self, or of any other view, he practises > equivocation by saying 'I do not take it thus' etc. These statements > of his equivocate by repudiating each point on which he is questioned" > Query: "Isn't it true that as far as he takes a stand on the side of > equivocation, he makes a positive affirmation of the equivocal > position?" > Reply: "no, because he is utterly deluded about that as well and > because the doctrine of equivocation ocurs only by way of > rejection"......."he is not called a theorist merely because he > resorts to equivocation when asked a question, but because he holds a > wrong conviction. For this person actually holds the wrong conviction > of eternalism" > p178" but how does this view come to be included under eternalsm? > Because he does not hold the view of anihilationism." > p26 Note from Bodhi explains the meaning of amaravikkhepa: "the > theorist who adopt this approach go on hedging without limits, > refusing to make a definite assertion".... > On p173 the commentary says "that it does not die, thus it is > endless" (amara-immortal) > best wishes > robert 11262 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Howard, > > I am not interested in metaphysical argument. I think you're saying you prefer posts that are not too doctrinaire, Victor. (Sorry, H, just couldn't resist that one ;-)). Jon In holiday mode Koh Samui > It seems to me that the view "there are no humans, no animals" is held > to be > true by some as the so-called ultimate truth, which is in direct > contradiction with the so-called conventional truth "there are humans, > animals." As I understand it, there is no such contradiction in the > teaching of the Buddha. The distinction between the so-called > conventional > truth/reality and the so-called ultimate truth/reality that leads to > contradiction is much fabricated and unnecessary. And as far as I can > see, > using the terms "conventionally speaking" or "conventional speech", is a > convenient way to get around the contradiction or inconsistency. > > Anyway, as I see it, the view "there are no humans, no animals" is an > extreme view, not leading to the cessation of dukkha, not worth holding > onto. > > That is how I understand it. > > Regards, > Victor > > 11263 From: Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/11/02 6:55:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Howard, > > > > I am not interested in metaphysical argument. > > I think you're saying you prefer posts that are not too doctrinaire, > Victor. > > (Sorry, H, just couldn't resist that one ;-)). -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do get the reference, Jon!! ;-))) ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > In holiday mode > Koh Samui > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 10:00am Subject: India Ch 1,no.1 Chapter 1, no 1. The Disappearance of the Teachings We live in a time close to the disappearance of the teachings. The Sangha, the order of the monks have as their foremost responsibility to preserve the teachings in explaining Dhamma and in developing right understanding. When we were in Sarnath, our group presented a meal to a large group of monks of different nationalities in the building of the Mahå-Bodhi Society. Acharn Sujin had requested my husband Lodewijk to address words of thanks to the monks after the meal. He spoke the following words: ³I know that it is conceit, but I cannot help feeling pleased and proud that, as one of the few foreigners in this group of Thai pilgrims of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation, I may speak to you, venerable monks, to thank you for giving us the opportunity to perform dåna. As foreigners, Nina and I came to Thailand more than thirtyfive years ago. This was kusala vipåka of a high degree, because in Thailand we received the highest gift one can receive in life: the gift of Dhamma. We received this gift through the hands of Acharn Sujin Boriharnwanaket, the spiritual leader of our group. We shall always remain most grateful to her. Also during this tour she never tires of explaining with great vigour the teachings of the Lord Buddha and she keeps exhorting us to study the present moment in order to understand the truth of impermanence and anattå. At the end of one of these Dhamma discussions, she asked each person present to tell her what part of the teachings he or she found most striking. Each person answered according to his own conditions and accumulations. If I would have been present I would have answered: the Ten Perfections, Påramís. For me, the Ten Perfections are an unique, unsurpassed, unequalled set of moral and spiritual ideals to be pursued in everday life, covering all aspects of human life. In presenting these gifts to you, venerable monks, we wish to pay tribute and respect to you. We admire your courage, because you have chosen the difficult path of going forth from home into homelessness. By observing the Vinaya, penetrating the four noble Truths and by preserving the teachings, you perform síla to a very high degree for the benefit of all mankind. For that, we are most grateful to you. Thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform dåna.² Both monks and layfollowers have the duty to study the teachings in detail and to develop understanding of the Dhamma. Throughout our journey Acharn Sujin explained the Dhamma to us with a great sense of urgency and she encouraged us to develop understanding of the reality that appears now. She said: ³Dhamma is the truth and it can be verified. All that has been explained in the Tipitaka is appearing now, while we are seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing tactile object and experiencing objects through the mind-door. The Buddha had through his enlightenment penetrated the true nature of all realities. It was not known before that seeing arises and falls away, and that seeing does not belong to anybody. By listening and considering the Dhamma we can come to see realities appearing now. There is no self, but it is a reality that can see, hear or experience objects through the other doorways.² 11265 From: Victor Yu Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 5:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 Hi Jon and all, First of all, Happy Chinese/Lunar New Year. How should I say it? I think sometimes my posts can be quite fundamentalist, and I like to refer to the discourses from time to time. I am not interested in metaphysical argument because I don't see it leading to the cessation of dukkha. Happy Chinese/Lunar New Year again, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 6:54 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Howard, > > > > I am not interested in metaphysical argument. > > I think you're saying you prefer posts that are not too doctrinaire, > Victor. > > (Sorry, H, just couldn't resist that one ;-)). > > Jon > In holiday mode > Koh Samui > > > It seems to me that the view "there are no humans, no animals" is held > > to be > > true by some as the so-called ultimate truth, which is in direct > > contradiction with the so-called conventional truth "there are humans, > > animals." As I understand it, there is no such contradiction in the > > teaching of the Buddha. The distinction between the so-called > > conventional > > truth/reality and the so-called ultimate truth/reality that leads to > > contradiction is much fabricated and unnecessary. And as far as I can > > see, > > using the terms "conventionally speaking" or "conventional speech", is a > > convenient way to get around the contradiction or inconsistency. > > > > Anyway, as I see it, the view "there are no humans, no animals" is an > > extreme view, not leading to the cessation of dukkha, not worth holding > > onto. > > > > That is how I understand it. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > > 11266 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 8:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Approaches to the teachings (was, Paticcasamuppada 3) Thanks, Victor. And best wishes for the lunar new year to you, too. I appreciate and applaude your approach. The problem, however, is how to ascertain the intended meaning of the suttas as spoken by the Buddha, since the suttas are capable of being understood in a number of different ways. I'm sure Howard's earlier reply to you was a suggestion as to the intended meaning of the Buddha's teaching on beings/no beings, rather than being mere metaphysical argument. Which just goes to show; one man's carefully considered analysis of the teachings is another man's (mere) theoretical construct! We can all benefit from well-intended exchanges on the teachings. 'Gung hei fat choi' Jon --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > First of all, Happy Chinese/Lunar New Year. > > How should I say it? I think sometimes my posts can be quite > fundamentalist, and I like to refer to the discourses from time to time. > I > am not interested in metaphysical argument because I don't see it > leading to > the cessation of dukkha. > > Happy Chinese/Lunar New Year again, > > Victor > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jonothan Abbott" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 6:54 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3 > > > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Howard, > > > > > > I am not interested in metaphysical argument. > > > > I think you're saying you prefer posts that are not too doctrinaire, > > Victor. > > > > (Sorry, H, just couldn't resist that one ;-)). > > > > Jon > > In holiday mode > > Koh Samui > > > > > It seems to me that the view "there are no humans, no animals" is > held > > > to be > > > true by some as the so-called ultimate truth, which is in direct > > > contradiction with the so-called conventional truth "there are > humans, > > > animals." As I understand it, there is no such contradiction in the > > > teaching of the Buddha. The distinction between the so-called > > > conventional > > > truth/reality and the so-called ultimate truth/reality that leads to > > > contradiction is much fabricated and unnecessary. And as far as I > can > > > see, > > > using the terms "conventionally speaking" or "conventional speech", > is a > > > convenient way to get around the contradiction or inconsistency. > > > > > > Anyway, as I see it, the view "there are no humans, no animals" is > an > > > extreme view, not leading to the cessation of dukkha, not worth > holding > > > onto. > > > > > > That is how I understand it. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor 11267 From: Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 4:06pm Subject: Computer Trouble Hi, all - I'm having major trouble with the keybcoard. Please expect no posts from me for a while. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11268 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact Rob Ep and later, Howard and Victor Thanks for your considered and clearly expressed comments. > I don't think there is anywhere in the suttas where Buddha says that > meditation is > a negative or delusory practice. So I find it hard to understand why it > seems to > be taken as a negative to some extent by yourself and others who follow > the > Abhidhamma. Am I wrong that this is the case? It seems that there is > some > caution in doing a specific practice that is not included in studying > the suttas > and discerning the moment in daily life. As far as 'specific practices' are concerned, I don't believe there are any given by the Buddha, and I include here studying the suttas and discerning the present moment. What the teachings are all about, to my understanding, is the why's and wherefore's of the means to enlightenment, and the factors that are a necessary prerequisite for (and precursor of) that enlightenment. You mention the Buddha's attitude towards meditation. If by 'meditation' you mean formal practice of some kind, that could of course be either with right view or with wrong view ('meditation' itself being a morally neutral term). So we are back with the same old question of how right view is to be developed. I would like to try and bring in here Victor's post on beings/no beings and Howard's post on Suttanta vs. Abhidhamma discrepancies. I see a common thread. As Victor points out, the suttas talk about, and in terms of, beings and individuals. Does this mean beings and individuals exist in the absolute (fundamental, real) sense and, if not, what does? The clear answer provided by the commentaries and abhidhamma is that there is no such thing as beings or individulas, only namas (cittas/cetasikas)and rupas. Does this mean there is any discrepancy between the suttas and the abhidhamma? Absolutely not. Could the same answer be found in the suttas once we have grasped the truth of this? Yes, it can, but we wouldn't have seen it just from a reading of the suttas (no matter how many times or how carefully we read them). Now what applies as regards beings/no beings applies equally to other asepcts of the teachings also. When we read the suttas we see the Buddha as talking about: - beings (individuals like us) - who exert effort - and practise the 4 satipattha's - to develop insight - so they can follow the Noble Eightfold Path - until attaining enlightenment. As understanding begins to develop, however, we start to realise that what the Buddha is actually talking about is: - mere aggregations of namas and rupas (the 5 khandhas) - mental factors such as viriya (energy) performing their functions - momentary and unforced awareness (another mental factor) directly experiencing a reality (any reality) - the momentary arising of direct knowledge (panna cetasika) of a presently appearing reality - a moment of path consciousness (magga citta) at each of 4 levels of enlightenment [these being the path] There are no discrepancies here, only different ways of saying the same things. It is a difficult proposition to accept, but the suttas are way over our heads in terms of our ability to understand the essential message conveyed. They were pitched at an audience whose level of attainment was far beyond our own present level. We need the assistance of the abhidhamma, the commentaries and, most of all, the kalayana mitta (good dhamma friend) to understand their true import. So whether we are talking about beings, practice or contact, we need to look beyond the mere words of the suttas. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > Thanks for your response. I appreciate your clear explanation as > always. Let me > make a few comments in response to your message. > > 1/ I think it's correct to say that everyone starts with wrong view, > and that > wrong view continues to one extent or another as long as ignorance > persists? > > 2/ Then the question is, what to do to correct wrong view and foster > right view > and right practice. > > 3/ Clearly, reading suttas and understanding the nature of mindfulness, > insight > and wisdom is very important, with or without the support and > clarification of a > qualified teacher, which is better than not having one! > > 4/ Then the question is, during this period of relative delusion, but > after one > has been convinced of the basic truth of the dhamma and wants to > progress, what > constitutes correct practice? > > 5/ To hedge my bets, I would say that practicing mindfulness to the > extent > possible at each moment in daily life is both a most significant > practice and a > most significant goal. > > 6/ I also believe that relatively undistracted periods of meditation is > a greatly > expedient technique for achieving progress in the qualities that lead to > higher > attainments. I will leave aside whether it is necessary or not, and > just say that > I believe it is expedient. > > If I had come up with this idea myself, I might doubt it, but there is > no doubt > that there is a great tradition in Buddhism that is many centuries old, > promoting > meditative practices as a core essential of the Buddhist path. One may > argue the > extent to which Buddha promoted meditation as an expedient means in the > Suttas, > but there is no doubt that Buddhists in many traditions all over the > world > practice mindfulness and insight meditation, whether they follow the > breath, note > the breath, attempt to observe arising experiences, or attempt to focus > on > specific objects of mind. > > It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I > meditate. It > makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering the > phone, > jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the day, > that all of > these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still and > observing > a less busy field of experience. Is the former a worthy and necessary > practice? > Yes. Does meditation help to develop this potentiality? To me the > answer is a > very big yes. One can argue that I may be fooling myself and really > developing a > satisfying sense of progress while really increasing ignorance in some > way, but I > don't see why that would be the case, any more than it might be the case > if I > 'thought' I was becoming more discerning in daily life. If one > concentrates on > learning something in general, one learns it faster. Meditation is no > different > than any other study in that sense, it is a concentrated period in which > one > focuses the mind on the moment. > > I don't think there is anywhere in the suttas where Buddha says that > meditation is > a negative or delusory practice. So I find it hard to understand why it > seems to > be taken as a negative to some extent by yourself and others who follow > the > Abhidhamma. Am I wrong that this is the case? It seems that there is > some > caution in doing a specific practice that is not included in studying > the suttas > and discerning the moment in daily life. Perhaps there is a reason for > this, but > I don't quite understand it at present. > > I look forward to your response. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ================================ > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > From the context of your post (ie., in reply to my sutta reference > about > > the factors for development of insight/for enlightenment), I think the > > question you are posing for discussion is this: If a form of practice > is > > intuitively and self-evidently seen as leading to greater insight, > does it > > matter that it varies from the factors for development as stated in > the > > texts? (Hope i've not over-stated you here, Rob) > > > > The difficulty with this proposition is that we all know from > experience > > that what seemed intuitively and self-evidently ‘right’ some time ago > (for > > example, at a former stage of our lives) is now seen in hindsight as > the > > product of uninformed ideas or misguided aspirations (no matter how > > honestly held at the time). > > > > The explanation for this is I think quite simple; the 'usual > suspects' of > > ignorance and wrong view about realities, and an unrealistic > assessment of > > our own capabilities. > > > > I believe these same factors are still with us today, although perhaps > in > > somewhat more disguised form. > > > > I know from other threads, Rob, that you place great importance on > having > > a thorough conceptual grasp of the nature of nibbana, as explained by > the > > Buddha, as a proper basis for the practice. I am not sure why, when > it > > comes to the real essentials of practice, conformity with the texts is > > generally seen as being of less importance, or even an unnecessary > delay > > to embarking on so-called ‘actual practice’. Surely a clear > intellectual > > grasp of these qualities called mindfulness and insight about which > the > > Buddha spoke, and of how those qualities are to be developed, is an > > indispensable first step. > > > > No doubt the idea of 'concentrated and repeated attention to the > moment > > with the least amount of distraction', as mentioned in you post, seems > > intuitively self-evident, but to my knowledge nowhere in the texts are > the > > factors of volitional (forced?) effort and a quiet place given as > > prerequisites, in the sense of *must do’s, must have’s*, for the > > development of awareness and insight into presently arising realities. > > > > When you think about it, there is an inherent inconsistency in the > idea of > > attention that is *to the moment* and yet that requires that moment to > be > > *with the least amount of distraction*. Surely ‘the moment’ is simply > the > > moment, with or without perceived distractions. > > > > Actually, what you refer to as distractions are essentially and > ultimately > > the same dhammas that we seek to have awareness of and insight into. > > Seeing them as distractions simply conceptualises them, and takes us > > further away from the present moment. It is really a kind of > > 'reification' in the abstract. > > > > At one level we can accept that it is only the present moment that has > any > > significance as regards awareness of and insight into dhammas. The > fact > > that we nevertheless persist in thinking in terms of present moments > other > > than the *present* present moment (!) suggests that we have only a > > superficial appreciation of this. Seeing in ourselves the tendency to > shy > > away from understanding the presently appearing reality, on whatever > > pretext, can be the first step in exposing normally unrecognised wrong > > view. > > > > Jon > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > Your post here is very well stated. I want to suggest one > possibility, > > > which is > > > the absurd notion which I none-the-less believe, that wrong view > with > > > right > > > practice can lead to the right result. > > > > > > The reason I believe this, and I am ready to be challenged, is that > it > > > is the > > > nature of insight that it is an interruption of one's view. > Therefore > > > any > > > practice that leads to true insight will lead to right view, even in > a > > > practitioner who has the wrong view of self. > > > > > > What a correct practice means to me is that it is a skillful enough > > > technique that > > > it is 'view-proof'. It will interrupt wrong view even if the > > > practitioner's > > > current view of self would fight against it. > > > > > > Insight is a surprise occurence. It can be cultivated but not > planned. > > > The > > > practice of mindfulness does, I believe, lead to insight, and then > wrong > > > view is > > > gradually replaced by discernment. > > > > > > In my opinion, it is concentrated and repeated practice in > mindfulness > > > that leads > > > to discernment of the actual nature of the moment. If one can do > this > > > in daily > > > life, no one would argue with this, because that means that the > person > > > practicing > > > this is engaged in meditation, even while going about their normal > > > activities. > > > But to think that correct practice of meditation does not increase > one's > > > skill at > > > practicing mindfulness does not make sense to me. It seems that > > > practice of > > > attention to the moment with the least amount of distraction does > lead > > > to > > > increased skill at developing a mindful state, which leads to > insight. > > > Rather > > > than getting tainted fruit because of the wrong view of self, it is > this > > > kind of > > > skill in the moment that eventually transcends and corrects wrong > view. > > > > > > I am speaking as one who is still in a cloudy state of murky > > > self-concept, I am > > > sure, so I speak of this while bumping into the furniture in the > dark, > > > but > > > never-the-less, I present it for your consideration. > > > > > > Best, > > > Robert Ep. 11269 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Dear Victor, Thank you for kindly posting these helpful and interesting suttas. They contain many helpful reminders about the brahma viharas, kamma, even the danger of proliferations- "the forgetting and ignoring of a person with whom you are annoyed.." The second sutta reminds us about the danger of expectations which are a condition for dosa as a few of us were discussing a little while ago. Very useful- "One does not get worked up over impossibilities";-) Good to see all your other posts, Victor and to hear more about how you understand the Teachings....a challenge for us all;-)) Now I'm away from work and having fun...I could do with some suttas from you reminding me of the danger of lobha, or better still, reminders about the value of patience to understand and develop detachment from all kilesa (defilements) and other realities....no self, no being;-) Thanks again, Sarah --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Sarah and all, > > I find the following two discourses might be relevant for reflection > on removing/subdueing hatred/annoyance/aghata. > > Regards, > Victor > > > Anguttara Nikaya V.161 > Aghatapativinaya Sutta > Removing Annoyance > Translated from the Pali by Ñanamoli Thera. > For free distribution only. > Read an alternate translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu > > From The Practice of Loving-kindness (Metta) (WH 7), by Ñanamoli > Thera, (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1987). Copyright ©1987 > > Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. > 11270 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] 'No control' vs the 4 padhanas (was, samma samadhi) Kom --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Christine & Jonothan, ........... > I would love it if you would explain in some more details > why "anything less than total control" is really no control > (maybe an example would suffice?). I think there were > discussions revolving around this topics recently including > Pooh. One camp asserts that partial control is possible, > and the other says there is no such thing. What I had in mind is something like this. Take our health as an example. You could say that we can control illness to a large degree. But the fact is, we are continually getting ill in one form or another (my present holiday is being somewhat blighted by a muscle strain in my hip/buttock), plus we never know when some serious or life-threatening illness might strike. So being 'mostly' in control is only an illusion, and no guarantee of immunity. You could never be sure of being free from illness at any particular time. I wouldn't say it's *wrong* to talk about partial control, but I don't see it as a useful way of looking at things. Jon 11271 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Dear Lucy, --- Lucy wrote: > > > Dear Sarah > > It can be very therapeutic to read about someone else's 'real issues', > amazing how familiar they can be to a distant reader : ) ... it's very > helpful to know how fellow travellers deal with those real issues and > how > they place those issue within the dhamma perspective. > > To Sarah, Jon and everyone else : Happy Year of the Horse ! Thanks for your good wishes. There's a big Chinese New Year party starting at our hotel, but we've opted to dive into this tiny internet cafe across the road to dose up on dhamma reminders instead. Actually I'm just surfacing after another forced 'silent' couple of days. Having left my reading glasses (and prescription)at home, I was unable to read or write until we found (to our surprise)a beachside optical shop which was able, in half an hour, to check for a new prescription and make me a pair at a bargain price. There was the usual angst when I searched in vain for the missing glasses and the delight when the new pair were produced so efficiently. I wonder, though, at whether it's helpful to consider ways of 'dealing with' the different issues or kilesa (defilements) in a day. Doesn't 'dealing with' again suggest an idea of self and 'doing', rather than accepting and understanding these various conditioned mental states? Underlying the idea of 'dealing with', I think there's usually a 'wishing they'd go away',suggesting some more (subtle) attachment to other states at that time. Meanwhile, as I mentioned to Victor, there's no concern about 'dealing with' the lobha such as when I'm in the waves or walking on the sand. Again and again, it's only that which is unpleasant that we're concerned to find a remedy for;-) Lucy, I'd be glad to hear of any of your daily life 'real issues' too or any further thoughts. I'm glad to see all your wise reflections and great humour in other posts too. Sarah 11272 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mindfulness of nama and rupa/Jon Lucy --- Lucy wrote: > Dear Jon & Larry > > There is however no need to single out one particular dhamma to study > or > > focus upon. That seems to suggest an idea that one dhamma is more > worth > > knowing, or easier to know, than another, or that focusing our > attention > > ('concentrating') on dhammas is a condition for the arising of > insight, > > and I don't think any of these ideas are found in the texts. > > > > Jon, do you mean that it is more "correct" (can't really think of an > appropriate word to use here!) to allow attention to follow the events > as > they become prominent in the consciousness? Just looking at what appears > and how it appears & disappears, instead of trying to force attention > onto > one particular event / dhamma, makes a lot more sense (to me, and I may > be > wrong!). "Concentrating" on one aspect feels to me rather artificial, > as > if constructing something that isn't there at all - not a reality. Also, > "concentrating" on the task in hand feels as if I'm blindfolded and > can't > "see" anything, but if I sort of step aside and just look, then things > start falling into place --- or unravelling, as you say. Well, I would say that if awareness does arise, its object will be a reality that is appearing at the present moment. That is, neither the fact of its arising, nor its object, is within our power to choose. So no form of paying attention, whether to a particular object or to what appears in general, will help bring on awareness. This is not to say that awareness is a random thing at all. It can only arise if and when the necessary factors for its arising have been properly understood and developed. But noone knows when the moment for its (next) arising will come. (It helps not to have too many expectations!) > > According to the Buddha's teaching, all dhammas have impermanence etc > as > > their characteristic. The insight that begins to see realties as they > are > > would also begin to see these characteristics of those realties, to > some > > (limited) degree or another. But again, it's not a matter of thinking > we > > should be trying to discern these characteristics. > > > > This makes a lot of sense too - often I catch myself trying to stick > "labels" (dukkha, anicca, anatta) on dhammas but this too feels very > forced. Without the "labels", I can often see anicca quite clearly --- > perhaps it's a question of carrying on looking at anicca until the > others > appear too : ) Different people of course see different aspects of things, according to their accumulated tendencies (whether of right or wrong view). But whatever the stage of our development when we are born into this life, we will probably leave it not all that much the wiser, I suspect. (Some find this discouraging, and tend to gravitate to assurances of a speedier 'release'!) Jon 11273 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma?-Howard Dear Howard, I hope you get your keyboard fixed soon..I wonder if there's anyone who doesn't have computer problems?? --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > ============================ > You are correct. The internal reaction of anger to a feeling is > kamma > and not vipaka, though, of course, it is conditioned by the mind's > accumulations. What I referred to as "automatic," however, was the > unpleasant > *feeling* resulting from the knowledge of the non-payment, and that > feeling, > like all feeling, is immediately conditioned by contact (mental contact > in > this case). Well, yes, I think we could say that because of the accumulated defilements, so often it's 'automatic'...It's automatic most the time not to 'guard the senses' as the Buddha advised. In other words it's 'automatic' for lobha, dosa and moha and proliferations to follow the sounds and visible objects because there's so very little sati (awareness) for most of us. If we are talking about phassa (contact), then it's always a mental factor accompanying every citta. Feeling also arises with each citta. Of course when seeing (vipaka) experiences visible object, the feeling is indifferent, but the feeling accompanying the dosa arising on account of this vipaka is unpleasant. >I see that specific unpleasant feeling as kamma vipaka due > to its > dependence on having a human birth, which, itself, is kamma vipaka. I see your point. I suppose we can say the unpleasant feeling is indirectly dependent on birth (vipaka as you say). If there was no birth consciousness, there would be no other realities arising at all. Still, I don't think we can refer to the unpleasant feeling accompanying dosa as 'kamma vipaka', unlike the unpleasant bodily feeling accompanying body consciousness (vipaka). Oh dear, even on holiday without texts, I'm in danger of sounding doctrinnaire... with metta nonetheless, Sarah ========================= 11274 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 2: To Frank Kuan Dear Frank Kuan How are you? This ia just a short request regarding the following. You wrote: "Some buddhist scholars believe the 12 links was a later buddhist development that tried to compact everything the buddha ever said about conditionality into one complex formula. Perhaps similar to a botched attempt at a unified field theory in physics." Could you please give the names of those Buddhist scholars, and their actual statements? It wouls help if you could provide specific references as well. Thanks in advance. With best wishes, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > The only conclusion that I've been able to draw from > PS (12 links of paticcasamupadda/dependent > origination/conditionality) is that it expresses > necessary preconditions for conditions to occur, but > if we try to deduce more information from that > relationship we get confounded. > > For example, if we visualize the 12 links in a > circular chain, and we suppose that cutting off one > link will break the whole circle and end samsaric > existence, it doesn't seem to work quite as simple as > that. What if we cut off craving? Is cutting off > craving the same as cutting off the underlying > tendency for craving? Or can cutting off craving > simply be like Pavlov's dog where a well trained monk > has a conditioned response to not react to > pleasant/unpleasnat/neutral feelings in inapproriate > ways? This is where I wonder about the Burmese > Vipassana system. They seem to give the impression > that we can break the chain at craving. I'm not so > sure. > > To me, it seems like the only part of the circular > chain that can truly be broken is "ignorance", but > even then when one becomes an arhant, the WHOLE chain > doesn't just fall completely apart. Discontinuities > occur, but not every link breaks. > > I'm not sure I actually like the 12 nidanas. The > dhamma makes more sense when the related portions in > context are grouped together. Some buddhist scholars > believe the 12 links was a later buddhist development > that tried to compact everything the buddha ever said > about conditionality into one complex formula. Perhaps > similar to a botched attempt at a unified field theory > in physics. > > -fk > > > 11275 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 10:03am Subject: India Ch 1, no 2. India, Ch 1, no. 2 We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Ch II, § 10) that the Buddha said: Monks, these two things conduce to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The wrong expression of the letter (of the text) and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it. For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong..... Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also right.... In the course of time the Buddha¹s teachings will be corrupted and then disappear. The last holy site we visited was Bodhgaya. Here one of our group read a text about the disappearance of the teachings. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² (the commentary to the Book of Analysis, commentary to Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge) is one of the texts explaining about the disappearance of the teachings 1 . We read (431): For there are three kinds of disappearance: disappearance of theoretical understanding (pariyatti), disappearance of penetration (paìivedha) and disappearance of practice (paìipatti). Herein, pariyatti is the three parts of the Tipiìaka; the penetration is the penetration of the Truths; the practice is the way.... Further on we read that of the Scriptures first the Book of the Patthåna (Conditional Relations) of the Abhidhamma disappears, and then successively the other Books of the Abhidamma. After that the Books of the Suttanta will successively disappear. We read: But when the two Piìakas 2 have disappeared, while the Vinaya Pitaka endures, the teachings (såsana) endure. Also the Vinaya will disappear. Further on the text states that there are three kinds of complete extinction: Complete extinction of defilements, complete extinction of the aggregates (khandhas) 3 and complete extinction of the relics. Herein, complete extinction of the defilements took place on the Wisdom Seat, the complete extinction of the aggregates at Kusinåra 4 and the complete extinction of the relics will take place in the future. It is then explained that all the relics will gather together and will go to the ³Great Wisdom Seat² in Bodhgaya. We read: Heaped up on the Great Wisdom Seat, they will become one solid mass like a pile of gold and will emit six-coloured rays... We read that they will be burnt by the fire element and that then the teachings have come to an end. The Buddha¹s attainment of enlightenment under the Bodhi-tree was the beginning of the teachings. He taught satipatthåna, the development of right understanding, from then on until his passing away. When the relics disappear on the Great Wisdom Seat the teachings have come to an end. Therefore, it was very meaningful that the text of the disappearance of the teachings was read near the Bodhi-tree. It reminds us not to neglect the study of the Dhamma the Buddha had penetrated at the time of his enlightenment, and above all, to develop right understanding in daily life, so that the meaning of the teachings can be realized. After the reading of this text we all asked the Triple Gem for forgiveness of our faults and shortcomings through action, speech or thought. This is done each time we visit the holy sites, at the very end of our visit, and in this case it was near the Bodhi-tree. The Buddha explained the eightfold Path so that people could develop it and realize the four noble Truths, the Truth of dukkha, unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned realities that arise and fall away; the Truth of the origination of dukkha that is clinging; the truth of the cessation of dukkha that is nibbåna; the Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of dukkha, that is the eightfold path. When there isn¹t anybody who can clearly explain the right practice, the development of the eightfold Path, people cannot develop it and they cannot realize the four noble Truths. When nobody in this world can penetrate the four noble Truths anymore, the world will be dark. The Dhamma will gradually disappear. At the last day of our pilgrimage, when we were in Patna, Acharn Sujin said: ³The teachings are almost dying, let us develop right understanding². We do not have to feel depressed when thinking of the disappearance of the teachings. On the contrary, we should have courage and cheerfulness to begin again and again developing right understanding. 11276 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] sharing food, to Num op 11-02-2002 02:08 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: > Nina, my aunt is helping K.Veera and K.Kanchana translating, The > Conditionality of Life She helps with looking up Thai atthakatha > corresponding to the English atthakatha you quoted from. I asked her her > that you asked whether you knew her or not. She told me she talked to you > more than couple times when you were in Thailand. She would like me to ask > you something from the book. > Dear Num, my apologies to your aunt that I did not know who she was, I am bad at names. Anumodana for her work with the translation. > Num: From chapter 12 Nutriment-Condition (Ahara-Paccaya) > << Thus, at each moment the three mental nutriments of contact, volition and > citta SUPPORT and MAINTAIN the dhammas arising together with them, and the > rupa produced by them, by the way of nutriment-condition. The mental > nutriments can be considered according to the method of the Patthana and also > according to the method of the "Dependent Origination" (Paticca samuppada), > the chain of conditionality arisen phenomena which cause the continuation of > cycle of birth and death117. >> > > > She said that there is only the word "support(uppatampaka)" but no > "maintain(araksa/anubala)" in Thai atthakatha Pancappakarana. She stated that > paccaya can have various functions; janakasatti, upatampakasatti and also > arakasatti. As I understand her question, she said that upatampaka and > araka/anubala-satti do not have exactly the same meaning!? OK, I think I can > be only a messenger boy this time. I think she'd like to know what version > of atthakatha you quoted from. She said that different versions of atthakatha > at times have some minor differences and at times there are some extra words. Nina: I used also Guide to Conditional Relations by U Narada: p. 55: 15 Nutriment Condition: now at end of p. 56: < So it will be seen that contact supports and maintains the prolongation of the round of rebirths.> And again on p. 57, the word maintenance is used. I do not mind if K. Krisa uses only support. In this context there is not much difference, as far as I can judge. When you eat, the food supports you but also maintains your life. Contact conditions feeling, it supports feeling and so maintains the prolongation of the cycle of samsara. There is not much detail in the old commentaries which I know. If there are discrepancies in Thai and English commentaries it would be no problem if K. Krisa follows the Thai, she does not have to burden herself to ask me. In the opposite way I do the same when translating from Thai, quoting from the co. in English, it is much more simple. So, you have a weekly Dhamma talk by phone with your aunt? That is also like food for us. Reading, considering, dhamma conversations, it is food, we need it. Can you share this food with us? I find, I am so forgetful of thinking, not realizing it is a conditioned nama that thinks. How we take it for self. And then seeing, it is so short. It seems we do not really understand the value of awareness of seeing, the thinking of concepts on account of what we see seems to be more interesting. But this is conditioned, very natural, very normal. If we wish it to be otherwise there is clinging to self again. Good topics to chat about with your aunt. Could she tell you about the topics of Thai lectures in the foundation? Just now I received a whole dish of food from Thialand: A. Sujin's book on the paramis, perfections. She writes: "The ten perfections are most important with regard to the complete eradication of defilements. Each kind of kusala should be developed so that this is a condition for the arising of pa~n~naa that can, stage by stage, completely eradicate defilements. " Best wishes from Nina. 11277 From: jonoabb Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:31pm Subject: Re: Laughter and Humour Christine It is a common misconception among non-Buddhists - and among many Buddhists too, for that matter - that a 'good Buddhist' shouldn't laugh. This idea seems to have something to do with the other similar idea that Buddhists strive to deny themselves anything pleasurable (I had a friend in Adelaide who, on my infrequent return visits when I was living in Thailand, seemed to feel the need to commiserate with me for my loss of the enjoyments of life). There is no general admonition against laughter, that I am aware of. The sutta you have quoted about the actors I would put into a different category, because it deals with making one's livelihood by presenting an 'imitation of reality' in performing 'things inspiring passion, anger and delusion' which have the effect of making the audience 'intoxicated and heedless'. As long as we still have defilements we will continue to have the normal range of human expressions. To think as some do that one should strive to laugh less in imitation of the arahant would not be following the path taught by the Buddha, to my understading. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_f orsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > During this last week, a friend of many years commented that he felt > I couldn't be a real buddhist because I laughed and smiled too much. > This seemed a strange remark, and I shrugged it off..... But I kept > remembering it. So I searched for a few references and found that > perhaps there was a basis for my friends' remark. This was surprising > to me and a little disturbing. I cannot imagine life without > laughter - it would become a depressing marathon of > endurance.....Perhaps, it is too much laughter that is to be > discouraged?....The wrong sort? and who judges that?...Or is it that > you automatically lose your sense of humour the more progress you > make? > > metta, > Christine > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/ samyutta/sn42-002.html > Then Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, went to the Blessed One > and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was > sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, I have > heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of > actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, > makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of > reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn > in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have > to say about that?" > > "Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that." > > A second time... A third time Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, > said: "Venerable sir, I have heard that it has been passed down by > the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the > stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them > delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the > body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing > devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?" > > "Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by > saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I > will simply answer you. Any beings who are not devoid of passion to > begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even > more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on > stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of > aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus > with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an > actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not > devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of > delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion > presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the > actor -- himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others > intoxicated & heedless -- with the breakup of the body, after death, > is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds > such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a > festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation > of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is > reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. > Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell > you: either hell or the animal womb." > > When this was said, Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, sobbed & > burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't > get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask > me that.'" > > "I'm not crying, venerable sir, because of what the Blessed One said > to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for > a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of actors who > said: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes > people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then > with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the > company of the laughing devas.' > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366 /lett7b.htm > > "if humour is, as I have suggested, in some way a reaction to fear, > then so long as there remains a trace of the contradiction, of the > existential paradox, so long will there remain a trace of humour. But > since, essentially, the Buddha's Teaching is the cessation of fear > (or more strictly of anxiety, the condition of fear), so it leads to > the subsidence of humour. Not, indeed, that the arahat is humourless > in the sense of being serious- minded; far from it; no -- it is simply > that the need he formerly felt for humour has now ceased. And so we > find in the Suttas (A. III,105: i,261) that whereas excessive > laughter 'showing the teeth' is called childishness, a smile when one > is rightly pleased is not out of place. Perhaps you may like to see > here a distinction between inauthentic and authentic humour." > > http://www.stanford.edu/~jasona/j92- final/ > > Associating laughter with religion was even a problem for early > Buddhist scholastics. Laughter was thought to be something common, > even vulgar. Some see the comic as a distraction from the seriousness > of religion, while others view it as adding "spice to the rice," so > to speak. Thus, Buddhist scholastics preferred to disassociate the > Buddha's teachings from laughter. However, there was a problem: many > sutras say or imply that the Buddha would laugh on occassion. How > could this discrepancy be resolved? Bharata, during the fourth > century in India, wrote a theatrical treatise that remedied this by > differentiating between the different types of laughter, as > diagrammed below: Type of Laughter Short Description Appropriate > Caste > Sita highest and noblest form, a faint smile High castes, authority > figures > Hasita next highest form, a smile which barely reveals the tips of > the teeth > Vihasita an even larger smile accompanied by some laughter Middle > ranks > Upahasita a more pronounced laughter, marked by shaking of the head, > shoulders, and arms > Apahasita loud laughter that makes one teary-eyed Lower castes, > people of unruly or uncouth behavior > Atihasita uproarious laughter that makes one double over, slap the > thighs, or roll around > > > Therefore, according to Bharata, the Buddha was only associated with > sita "laughter", although from a modern sense, this isn't even > considered laughter" > > > http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/s angaha/chapter_1.htm > > "26. Hasituppáda is a citta peculiar to Arahats. Smiling is caused by > a pleasurable feeling. There are thirteen classes of consciousness by > which one may smile according to the type of the person. An ordinary > worldling (puthujjana) may laugh with either one of the four types of > cittas rooted in attachment, accompanied by pleasure, or one of the > four kusala cittas, accompanied by pleasure. Sotápannas, Sakadágámís, > and Anágámís may smile with one of the two akusala cittas, > disconnected with false view, accompanied by pleasure, or with one of > the four kusala cittas. Arahats and Pacceka Buddhas may smile with > one of the four sobhana kiriya cittas or hasituppáda. Sammá > Sambuddhas smile with one of the two sobhana kiriya cittas, > accompanied by wisdom and pleasure. There is nothing but mere mirth > in the hasituppáda consciousness.The Compendium of Philosophy > states: "There are six classes of laughter recognized in Buddhist > works: (1) sita: - a smile manifesting itself in expression and > countenance; (2) hasita: - a smile consisting in the slight movements > of the lips just enough to reveal the tips of the teeth; (3) > vihasita: - laughter giving out a light sound; (4) upahasita: - > laughter accompanied by the movement of the head, shoulders, and > arms; (5) apahasita: - laughter accompanied by the shedding of tears; > and (6) atihasita: - an outburst of laughter accompanied by the > forward and backward movements of the entire body from head to foot. > Laughter is thus a form of bodily expression (káya-viññatti), which > may or may not be accompanied by vocal expression (vací-viññatti). Of > these, the first two classes are indulged in by cultured persons, the > next two by the average man, and the last two by the lower classes of > being." > > > http://www.wfb-hq.org/bud15c.htm > > "Consider, for example, laughter. The Buddha once said, "Laughter is > the behaviour of an infant in its cradle." Think about it. We like to > laugh heartily, even though it is the behaviour of an infant in its > cradle. It doesn't even embarrass us. We like it. We go right on > laughing heartily, guffawing loudly. Why did the Buddha say > that "Laughter is the behaviour of an infant in its cradle"? Think of > an infant in its cradle and the way it lies there gurgling and > grinning at you. > The laughter of the noble ones is different. They laugh at > all compounded things (sankhara), which are impermanent and changing, > unsatisfactory (dukkha), and not- self. Because they knew, they can > laugh at compounded things and at craving, which henceforth can do > them no harm. This is the right kind of laughter, the kind that has > meaning and worth." 11278 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 10:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Laughter and Humour Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > The first level of enlightenment (sotapatti-magga) eradicates all the wrong views (with the wrong view of self, of seeing a dhamma as something else other than dhamma, being most important as it is the root of all other wrong views) along with jealousy (issa), stinginess (machariya), and doubt (vichikicca). According to the text you have given, a sotappanna still has 4 types of conciousness arising with attachment left. I think it is important to see that the conditions for all kinds of kilesa to arise haven't been eradicated until enlightment is reached. Before then, if one doesn't laugh (certainly, laughter is conditioned by coarse kilesa), it just means there is no condition to do so. When there is condition to do so, then one will laugh, as the conditions for laughter haven't been eradicated. A. Sujin keeps reminding us that the first task in learning the dhamma is to understand dhamma as dhamma: to see that the aggregates are not ours, that they are not us, that we are not in them, etc. When laughter occurs, it is just a bunch of rupas conditioned by coarse kilesa, coarse kilesa that will continue to arise until the view of self has been completely eradicated (and further). This is inevitable. When panna sees the faults/drawbacks of kilesas, like how attachment hinders the arising of kusala and of knowledge, then one has less condition for the attachment to arise. However, when there are still conditions for such attachment to rise again in the future, until one completely eradicates it. I think it is more imperative to understand dhamma as dhamma, rather than trying to suppress all kilesa. When one sees the faults of kilesa, one naturally (without the conventional efforts) have less apparent tendencies toward them. kom 11279 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 0:12am Subject: Re: Laughter and Humour Hi Victor, Frank, Jon and Kom, Thanks for your replies, all helpful - all from different perspectives. Victor - I still wonder exactly what the Buddha was smiling about in the Gavesin sutta.....fondly with approval, or ironically because of human nature? Frank - Yes, concentrating on reducing/eradicating suffering should be the main focus, rather than looking for humour and laughter to take ones mind off the actuality of life. Jon - You say: "To think as some do that one should strive to laugh less in imitation of the arahant would not be following the path taught by the Buddha, to my understanding." This is a relief.....not that sometimes there is much to laugh at in daily life.....better to live naturally though than be self-consciously awkward....Thanks for explaining that sutta. Kom - Thanks for saying that "Sujin keeps reminding us that the first task in learning the dhamma is to understand dhamma as dhamma: to see that the aggregates are not ours, that they are not us, that we are not in them." Sometimes it's too easy to wander away from the basic tasks. Much to think about in your post. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > > > > The first level of enlightenment (sotapatti-magga) > eradicates all the wrong views (with the wrong view of self, > of seeing a dhamma as something else other than dhamma, > being most important as it is the root of all other wrong > views) along with jealousy (issa), stinginess (machariya), > and doubt (vichikicca). According to the text you have > given, a sotappanna still has 4 types of conciousness > arising with attachment left. > > I think it is important to see that the conditions for all > kinds of kilesa to arise haven't been eradicated until > enlightment is reached. Before then, if one doesn't laugh > (certainly, laughter is conditioned by coarse kilesa), it > just means there is no condition to do so. When there is > condition to do so, then one will laugh, as the conditions > for laughter haven't been eradicated. > > A. Sujin keeps reminding us that the first task in learning > the dhamma is to understand dhamma as dhamma: to see that > the aggregates are not ours, that they are not us, that we > are not in them, etc. When laughter occurs, it is just a > bunch of rupas conditioned by coarse kilesa, coarse kilesa > that will continue to arise until the view of self has been > completely eradicated (and further). This is inevitable. > > When panna sees the faults/drawbacks of kilesas, like how > attachment hinders the arising of kusala and of knowledge, > then one has less condition for the attachment to arise. > However, when there are still conditions for such attachment > to rise again in the future, until one completely eradicates > it. > > I think it is more imperative to understand dhamma as > dhamma, rather than trying to suppress all kilesa. When one > sees the faults of kilesa, one naturally (without the > conventional efforts) have less apparent tendencies toward > them. > > kom > > 11280 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control/No control (was, Re: samma samadhi) Herman --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Jon, > > If you are saying that the fact that incontinence does occur is proof > that control is not possible at all, I would have to disagree. The > voluntary nervous system places numerous bodily and mental functions > under volitional control. That the level of voluntary control that > can be exercised varies amongst the population in general is not in > doubt. The statement that control is not possible at all is. If control is possible, but only when the circumstances are right, how 'real' is the control? Perhaps our difference here is pretty much a semantic one. But it's a useful area to consider, I find. Jon 11281 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > There is much in the following that I agree with, for example the > > relevance of motivation and underlying sense urgency for effective > volition. > Where we differ is, in part, a matter of emphasis. I detect a flavor of > "randomness" in your analysis, a randomness tending towards the nihilist > pole > of wrong view, whereas my tendency is towards the opposite > substantialist > pole of wrong view. But most precisely, where we differ is on the issue > of > whether the Buddha provided a training program (my position) or only a > statement of what conditions foster what results (your apparent > position). I seem to recall that 'trainer of gods and men' is one of the attributes of a Buddha, so I hesitate to give my unqualified agreement to your characterisation of our difference! Let me just say that I'm not aware of any 'program' laid down by the Buddha for attaining enlightenment. I do, however, see the teachings as making known, and encouraging the development of, the factors that lead to enlightenment. Jon 11282 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Watching experiences vs. Right Effort (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Lucy --- Lucy wrote: > Thanks Jon! I nearly missed this post - took me 5 days to find it. Even > after the 'silent weekend', I still have lots of messages to read ! > > After posting my question, I looked in the archive and found several > previous discussions making things clearer. It's helpful to know what > "Right Effort" is, and to be aware of wrong view creeping in disguised > as > "the will to make a greater effort". Slowly things are falling into > place > here. But, as you say, it's easier said > than done : ) Glad you have found the archives useful. Yes, this particular form of wrong view is really difficult to get a handle on, and generates a lot of resistance (the result of deeply-held convictions). I have heard it said that this is where the quality of patience is so valuable, because another tendency we all have in abundance is the expectation for quick results. One can see where confidence in the teachings also comes into play, because any results only become apparent further down the line (the simile of the adze-handle is how it is explained in the suttas). Jon 11283 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:00am Subject: India, ch 1, no. 3. India ch 1, no. 3 Each day Acharn Sujin exhorted us to take courage and to be cheerful. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (I, Sågåtha vagga, IV, Måra, Ch II, §6, The Bowl): On one occasion, at Såvatthí, the Exalted One was instructing, inciting and inspiring the monks by a sermon on the five khandhas of grasping (upadåna khandhas). And the monks with their whole mind applied, attentive and intent, listened with rapt hearing to the Dhamma. The Commentary (the Såratthappakåsiní) explains that the Buddha was instructing, teaching under different aspects the specific and general characteristics of the khandhas of grasping. The Buddha was enlightening, inciting and inspiring them. The Commentary explains that he exhorted them to have energy and endeavour. As we read in the sutta text, the monks listened with enthousiasm, with rapture, to the dhamma. Thus, this text reminds us to be courageous and not to give up developing understanding, and to be cheerful, glad about the Dhamma. We discussed courage and cheerfulness because of the Dhamma several times. Acharn Sujin explained that when akusala citta arises we may dislike it, we may feel bad about it, but akusala can be realized as only a conditioned reality. Then we shall not try to do something else but the development of right understanding of what appears now, even if it is akusala. We have accumulated akusala for countless lives, and thus there are conditions for its arising. We shall not be downhearted but we can be courageous and glad to be able to know the truth. We may be discouraged about our lack of awareness and understanding, our lack of progress. We should not expect the arising of a great deal of understanding when it has not yet been accumulated. Understanding should be developed very naturally in our daily life and in that way we can live happily, without anxiety. We can rejoice in the Dhamma we learnt and take courage to continue developing right understanding. 11284 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 0:45pm Subject: Re: India, ch 1, no. 3. Dear Nina, I appreciate all your writings, in whatever form they appear, on the Net or in hard copy, with formal structure, or in conversational mode. They are and have been of immeasurable value to me, and, I am certain, to countless others.. And now, this extract comes just when most needed. Thank you. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > India ch 1, no. 3 > > Each day Acharn Sujin exhorted us to take courage and to be cheerful. We > read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (I, Sågåtha vagga, IV, Måra, Ch II, §6, The > Bowl): > > On one occasion, at Såvatthí, the Exalted One was instructing, inciting and > inspiring the monks by a sermon on the five khandhas of grasping (upadåna > khandhas). And the monks with their whole mind applied, attentive and > intent, listened with rapt hearing to the Dhamma. > > The Commentary (the Såratthappakåsiní) explains that the Buddha was > instructing, teaching under different aspects the specific and general > characteristics of the khandhas of grasping. The Buddha was enlightening, > inciting and inspiring them. The Commentary explains that he exhorted them > to have energy and endeavour. As we read in the sutta text, the monks > listened with enthousiasm, with rapture, to the dhamma. Thus, this text > reminds us to be courageous and not to give up developing understanding, and > to be cheerful, glad about the Dhamma. We discussed courage and cheerfulness > because of the Dhamma several times. Acharn Sujin explained that when > akusala citta arises we may dislike it, we may feel bad about it, but > akusala can be realized as only a conditioned reality. Then we shall not try > to do something else but the development of right understanding of what > appears now, even if it is akusala. We have accumulated akusala for > countless lives, and thus there are conditions for its arising. We shall not > be downhearted but we can be courageous and glad to be able to know the > truth. We may be discouraged about our lack of awareness and understanding, > our lack of progress. We should not expect the arising of a great deal of > understanding when it has not yet been accumulated. Understanding should be > developed very naturally in our daily life and in that way we can live > happily, without anxiety. We can rejoice in the Dhamma we learnt and take > courage to continue developing right understanding. 11285 From: Lucy Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India, ch 1, no. 3. Oh yes, I second that! Count me among the "countless others". Lucy ------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" Dear Nina, I appreciate all your writings, in whatever form they appear, on the Net or in hard copy, with formal structure, or in conversational mode. They are and have been of immeasurable value to me, and, I am certain, to countless others.. And now, this extract comes just when most needed. Thank you. metta, Christine 11286 From: Lucy Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Watching experiences vs. Right Effort (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Dear Jon Ooooh. I'm a bit weak in the "Patience" department... Seriously now, the expectation for quick results can be a very big hurdle. The funny thing is, the results appear in areas one doesn't anticipate, often we don't even notice there have been "results" The other day, I was very happy to discover that I now tend to allow the car behind to overtake mine without even showing the driver two of my fingers. Now, that is a very important step for me... musing over results... Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Watching experiences vs. Right Effort (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) > Glad you have found the archives useful. > > Yes, this particular form of wrong view is really difficult to get a > handle on, and generates a lot of resistance (the result of deeply-held > convictions). I have heard it said that this is where the quality of > patience is so valuable, because another tendency we all have in abundance > is the expectation for quick results. One can see where confidence in the > teachings also comes into play, because any results only become apparent > further down the line (the simile of the adze-handle is how it is > explained in the suttas). > > Jon > 11287 From: Lucy Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Hello all (be warned, this is the "beginner's corner") In observing realities, am I right to think that what one sees generally is more the khandhas than the individual citta, etc.? It seems to me that what I take to be "citta" is actually a very complex manifestation of innumerable cittas - more on the lines of "aggregates" (khandas) than as single realities. Even isolating rupa from concept of rupa seems almost impossible to my mind - what I notice as "hardness", etc. is already elaborated into something quite different from plain hardness - it's more like "hardness" + sanna + vedana + vinnana, +/- recollection of & comparison with other experiences of "hardness" and even expectations of "hardness" becoming softer and warmer...instead of looking at one door, I'm looking at a whole building plus the surrounding gardens, parks and streets... So, I wonder, does the practice of satipathana lead to discriminating individual realities? What's the process by which the aggregates disaggregate and an individual citta or rupa becomes manifest? Or is this a stupid question? Lucy 11288 From: Lucy Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dealing with daily issues Dear Sarah > > There was the usual angst when I searched in vain for the missing glasses > and the delight when the new pair were produced so efficiently. I wonder, > though, at whether it's helpful to consider ways of 'dealing with' the > different issues or kilesa (defilements) in a day. No matter how much we consider, what arises is rarely what one expects and/or our way of dealing with what arises often surprises us...No, "consideration" doesn't really help at all. But it seems to me that there is something in the Dhamma that prepares us to deal with issues. It's like a gentle, effortless training more than a conscious work-out. Somehow, when the "issue" arises, we discover that we can deal with it. And we don't even need to scratch our head to think: "now where in the suttas did I read about a solution to this?" > Doesn't 'dealing with' > again suggest an idea of self and 'doing', rather than accepting and > understanding these various conditioned mental states? Underlying the idea > of 'dealing with', I think there's usually a 'wishing they'd go > away',suggesting some more (subtle) attachment to other states at that > time. > You're right there. It isn't a 'dealing with', it's more going-along-with...or something like that. But don't you think there is also a case for going along with the "idea of self 'doing' "? Just allowing it to develop and let the "self" bump its ugly head against a wall ot something? It's just that "self" always has a way to spring up and surprise - it almost seems more efficient to let "self" suffer the frustration of being unable to do, so we can learn from its failure. > Meanwhile, as I mentioned to Victor, there's no concern about 'dealing > with' the lobha such as when I'm in the waves or walking on the sand. > Again and again, it's only that which is unpleasant that we're concerned > to find a remedy for;-) > There are times when the idea of anicca flashes in front of lobha and one is forced to consider how to deal with lobha in the context of impending anicca. Don't know whether I'm being clear (probably not) but am sure you know what I'm trying to say. Perhaps it's a consequence of over-labelling, our enjoyments can become coloured by our knowledge of their impermanence. Anyway, just knowing the enjoyent is impermanent is a good preparation to "deal with lobha" - but it all happens quite spontaneously. Again... going along. Enjoy your beach holiday! Mudita to all those enjoying beach holidays !!! I'm not envious, oh, no, I'm not AT ALL envious.... Lucy PS I'll have to take up "envy" as next week's cetasika 11289 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Rob Ep Let me continue my reply to your post (working backwards). > It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I > meditate. It > makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering the > phone, > jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the day, > that all of > these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still and > observing a less busy field of experience. ... > Meditation is ... a concentrated period in which one > focuses the mind on the moment. I am sure that many would share your view that awareness of a presently appearing reality means or suggests 'following' the mind as it jumps from one activity to another. Yet I think that is a wholly impossible task, and not really what the Buddha was describing for the development of the path. It's true that we can find in the suttas descriptions of all the different mind-states (and other realities), and how extremely fast these change from one to the other. But only the likes of a Buddha can ever get to see the mind on a purely moment-to-moment basis. For us, as beginners, it is enough to know that consciousness *is* a moment-to-moment phenomenom and hence a constantly changing one, so that we do not assume it to be otherwise. When we read in, say, the Satipatthana Sutta about awareness of a presently appearing reality (e.g. seeing or visible object), there is nothing that requires this to be *only a single moment* of that reality. As I understand, there may be many moments of awareness of the same object as it arises in an apparently continuous stream (since we don't have the discernment to see these things on a moment to moment basis). Initially, it is the characteristic of being a nama or a rupa, or of appearing through a particular doorway, that is apparent, rather than its purely momentary nature (not to mention the even more 'advanced' characteristics of impermanence etc.). What I am trying to say, Rob, is that the idea of awareness as involving or being a function of our focussing on the present moment and following the activity of the mind needs to be put aside if the true nature of the presently appearing reality is to be discerned. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > Thanks for your response. I appreciate your clear explanation as > always. Let me > make a few comments in response to your message. > > 1/ I think it's correct to say that everyone starts with wrong view, > and that > wrong view continues to one extent or another as long as ignorance > persists? > > 2/ Then the question is, what to do to correct wrong view and foster > right view > and right practice. > > 3/ Clearly, reading suttas and understanding the nature of mindfulness, > insight > and wisdom is very important, with or without the support and > clarification of a > qualified teacher, which is better than not having one! > > 4/ Then the question is, during this period of relative delusion, but > after one > has been convinced of the basic truth of the dhamma and wants to > progress, what > constitutes correct practice? > > 5/ To hedge my bets, I would say that practicing mindfulness to the > extent > possible at each moment in daily life is both a most significant > practice and a > most significant goal. > > 6/ I also believe that relatively undistracted periods of meditation is > a greatly > expedient technique for achieving progress in the qualities that lead to > higher > attainments. I will leave aside whether it is necessary or not, and > just say that > I believe it is expedient. > > If I had come up with this idea myself, I might doubt it, but there is > no doubt > that there is a great tradition in Buddhism that is many centuries old, > promoting > meditative practices as a core essential of the Buddhist path. One may > argue the > extent to which Buddha promoted meditation as an expedient means in the > Suttas, > but there is no doubt that Buddhists in many traditions all over the > world > practice mindfulness and insight meditation, whether they follow the > breath, note > the breath, attempt to observe arising experiences, or attempt to focus > on > specific objects of mind. > > It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I > meditate. It > makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering the > phone, > jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the day, > that all of > these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still and > observing > a less busy field of experience. Is the former a worthy and necessary > practice? > Yes. Does meditation help to develop this potentiality? To me the > answer is a > very big yes. One can argue that I may be fooling myself and really > developing a > satisfying sense of progress while really increasing ignorance in some > way, but I > don't see why that would be the case, any more than it might be the case > if I > 'thought' I was becoming more discerning in daily life. If one > concentrates on > learning something in general, one learns it faster. Meditation is no > different > than any other study in that sense, it is a concentrated period in which > one > focuses the mind on the moment. > > I don't think there is anywhere in the suttas where Buddha says that > meditation is > a negative or delusory practice. So I find it hard to understand why it > seems to > be taken as a negative to some extent by yourself and others who follow > the > Abhidhamma. Am I wrong that this is the case? It seems that there is > some > caution in doing a specific practice that is not included in studying > the suttas > and discerning the moment in daily life. Perhaps there is a reason for > this, but > I don't quite understand it at present. > > I look forward to your response. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ================================ > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > From the context of your post (ie., in reply to my sutta reference > about > > the factors for development of insight/for enlightenment), I think the > > question you are posing for discussion is this: If a form of practice > is > > intuitively and self-evidently seen as leading to greater insight, > does it > > matter that it varies from the factors for development as stated in > the > > texts? (Hope i've not over-stated you here, Rob) > > > > The difficulty with this proposition is that we all know from > experience > > that what seemed intuitively and self-evidently ‘right’ some time ago > (for > > example, at a former stage of our lives) is now seen in hindsight as > the > > product of uninformed ideas or misguided aspirations (no matter how > > honestly held at the time). > > > > The explanation for this is I think quite simple; the 'usual > suspects' of > > ignorance and wrong view about realities, and an unrealistic > assessment of > > our own capabilities. > > > > I believe these same factors are still with us today, although perhaps > in > > somewhat more disguised form. > > > > I know from other threads, Rob, that you place great importance on > having > > a thorough conceptual grasp of the nature of nibbana, as explained by > the > > Buddha, as a proper basis for the practice. I am not sure why, when > it > > comes to the real essentials of practice, conformity with the texts is > > generally seen as being of less importance, or even an unnecessary > delay > > to embarking on so-called ‘actual practice’. Surely a clear > intellectual > > grasp of these qualities called mindfulness and insight about which > the > > Buddha spoke, and of how those qualities are to be developed, is an > > indispensable first step. > > > > No doubt the idea of 'concentrated and repeated attention to the > moment > > with the least amount of distraction', as mentioned in you post, seems > > intuitively self-evident, but to my knowledge nowhere in the texts are > the > > factors of volitional (forced?) effort and a quiet place given as > > prerequisites, in the sense of *must do’s, must have’s*, for the > > development of awareness and insight into presently arising realities. > > > > When you think about it, there is an inherent inconsistency in the > idea of > > attention that is *to the moment* and yet that requires that moment to > be > > *with the least amount of distraction*. Surely ‘the moment’ is simply > the > > moment, with or without perceived distractions. > > > > Actually, what you refer to as distractions are essentially and > ultimately > > the same dhammas that we seek to have awareness of and insight into. > > Seeing them as distractions simply conceptualises them, and takes us > > further away from the present moment. It is really a kind of > > 'reification' in the abstract. > > > > At one level we can accept that it is only the present moment that has > any > > significance as regards awareness of and insight into dhammas. The > fact > > that we nevertheless persist in thinking in terms of present moments > other > > than the *present* present moment (!) suggests that we have only a > > superficial appreciation of this. Seeing in ourselves the tendency to > shy > > away from understanding the presently appearing reality, on whatever > > pretext, can be the first step in exposing normally unrecognised wrong > > view. > > > > Jon > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, 11290 From: Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities >Lucy wrote, "So, I wonder, does the practice of satipathana lead to discriminating individual realities? What's the process by which the aggregates disaggregate and an individual citta or rupa becomes manifest?" Good questions Lucy. I look forward to some good answers. For me, discriminating individual realities is a matter of conceptual study. It is surprisingly helpful to understand even a little how the whole thing works. As for meditation, what I am doing at the moment is regarding the nama/rupa distinction as a distinction between truth and illusion. Truth being rupa and illusion being nama. This is a casual way of speaking; you could also say nama is defilement and rupa is non-defilement, or something like that. The basic point is to take everything one thinks and emotionally feels as illusory and fundamentally wrong. Technically speaking all this thinking and feeling could be analyzed into ultimate realities, but the experience of it is suffering. For a crude ordinary person like myself, the experience of rupa is not suffering. That is a very interesting finding, and warrants further looking into. I can't think of anything else to say, so I guess that's all. bon voyage, Larry 11291 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Watching experiences vs. Right Effort (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Dear Lucy, > -----Original Message----- > From: Lucy [mailto:selene@c...] > The other day, I was very happy to discover that > I now tend to allow the > car behind to overtake mine without even showing > the driver two of my > fingers. Now, that is a very important step for me... I am very happy to hear about this event. Immediately after I have read the story, I hear a saying in my head (which A. Sujin has said more than a few times in the recordings), that we can see the benefit of hearing and considering (wisely) the dhamma. One the other hand, we should also remind ourself that kusala is also a dhamma. It is not us, and it is not ours. It has been conditioned to arise, and it has already fallen away. Right now there is a dhamma that is rising (maybe akusala: attachment to the kusala, or ignorance of current realities), whether or not we know what it truly is is another question. Further, as long as the wrong view about self (sakaya-dithi) has not been eradicated completely, there are still conditions for the flood to sweep us into the bad rebirths, into the beginningless and endless samsara. kom 11292 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I see a strongly reactive mind, a mind reacting with aversion and > > aversion, as interfering with mindfulness and clear comprehension. The > development of calm is a palliative with regard to this. > -------------------------------------------------------- I like your expression 'strongly reactive mind'. It somehow seems to aptly describe the effect that latent tendencies for strong attachment and aversion have. However, while a strongly reactive mind is no doubt counter-indicative for those aspiring to the development of samatha, it is not a bar to the development of mindfulness and clear comprehension. This I think is apparent from the Satipattana Sutta itself which makes it clear that the various arising kilesa are also to be the object of sati. The obstacles to the development of mindfulness and clear comprehension are ignorance and wrong view, as I understand it. If there is a proper grasp of the details of the teaching on mindfulness, there is no reason it should not arise even during times of strong anger or attachment (although not of course at the same precise moment). I think were the situation as you suggest then the Buddha would have taught 2 modes of development of mindfulness and clear comprehension - 1 for those of us with strongly reactive minds and another for the fortunate few (although proportionately many, many, more in those days) who have attained high levels of concentration. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I see formal meditation practice as merely a part of the total > practice. It is useful that there be an ongoing mindfulness practice > throughout all one's daily activities. > ----------------------------------------------------- I note the distinction you imply between actual mindfulness and a 'mindfulness practice'. But is this something mentioned in the suttas? > Surely the teachings have relevance to the present> moment regardless > > of the level of calm or other form of kusala. Do you > > see the potential, given the right grasp of the teachings, for the > arising > > of awareness of any presently appearing reality (be it seeing, visible > > object, attachment, unpleasant feeling or whatever)? > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course I do. What I also see is that an ongoing practice which > > includes cultivation of calm creates a layer of peace in the mind that > extends beyond formal meditation periods and contributes to one's > ongoing > mindfulness practice. > ------------------------------------------------- Likewise as regards the idea of the peace of samatha extending beyond actual periods of samatha and somehow contributing to the 'mindfulness practice'. Is this something you see as being consonant with any particular part of the teachings, or is it perhaps based on personal experience (yours or others'; just wanting to clarify, and hope you don't mind me asking, Howard)? As always, appreciate your carefully considered views, Howard. Jon 11293 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:01am Subject: India ch 1, no. 4 India Ch 1, no 4. Acharn Sujin reminded us also time and again to have patience (khantí). She remarked that people may be able to be patient when they have lack of sleep or when they have to sit for a long time, but that it is most difficult to be patient with regard to the development of right understanding. Usually people wish for the arising of mindfulness and right understanding and they are impatient when they do not notice any progress. Acharn Sujin often recited the text of the ³Dhammapada²(vs. 184) about patience which is the highest form of ascetism: Forbearing patience is the highest asceticism, nibbåna is supreme say the Buddhas; he verily, is not a recluse who harms another; nor is he an ascetic who oppresses others. Patience is the highest ascetism (tapo). We read in the Commentary to the Cariyåpiìaka, about the perfection of patience the Bodhisatta developed 5 . It is defined as follows: Patience has the characteristic of acceptance; its function is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its proximate cause. We can have patience with regard to the desirable and the undesirable when there is no attachment to a pleasant object nor aversion towards an unpleasant object. When there is more understanding we can see that whatever arises is conditioned, no matter it is pleasant or unpleasant, and then there are conditions for patience. As we read, ³seeing things as they really are is the proximate cause of patience². The Dhamma can be our refuge when we have patience while listening to the Dhamma, while studying and considering it. Then there will be conditions for mindfulness of realities and the development of right understanding. Time and again Acharn Sujin said that understanding very gradually develops. During this journey we listened to the Dhamma and heard things that we had heard before, but do we have the patience to really consider what we hear? We are still able to listen to the Dhamma, but the Dhamma will not last forever. Therefore, we should not waste time but develop more understanding now. We are reminded to be aware of the realities that appear by the following text in the ³Gradual Sayings² (Book of the Ones, Ch X): Monks, I know not of any other single thing that conduces to the confusion, to the disappearance of true Dhamma as does negligence. Negligence indeed conduces to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma. Monks, I know not of any single thing so conducive to the establishment, to the non-disappearnace of true Dhamma as earnestness 6 . Earnestness indeed conduces to the establishment, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. ******* Footnotes 1. This has also been explained in the Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², the ³Sumangala Vilåsiní² (III, no. 28, the Faith that satisfied). 2. The Abhidhamma and the Suttanta. 3. The five aggregates or khandhas are: rúpakkhandha, all physical phenomena; vedanåkkhandha, feelings; saññåkkhandha, remembrance or perception; sankhårakkhandha, formations or activities, including all cetasikas other than feeling and perception; viññånakkhandha, consciousness, including all cittas. 4. At the final passing away of the Buddha there was the extinction of the khandhas; they would not arise again because there were no more conditions for rebirth. 5. Translated by Ven. Bodhi. See the All-Embracing Net of Views, B.P.S. Kandy. 6. Earnestness is a translation of the Påli appamåda, non-negligence. It means non-forgetfulness, mindfulness. **** 11294 From: Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma?-Howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/12/02 7:52:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > I hope you get your keyboard fixed soon.. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. I just replaced it. -------------------------------------------------------------- I wonder if there's anyone who> > doesn't have computer problems?? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Most of humankind I would suppose! ;-)) ================================ With metta, Howard (The rest of your post follows with no comment.) > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > ============================ > > You are correct. The internal reaction of anger to a feeling is > > kamma > > and not vipaka, though, of course, it is conditioned by the mind's > > accumulations. What I referred to as "automatic," however, was the > > unpleasant > > *feeling* resulting from the knowledge of the non-payment, and that > > feeling, > > like all feeling, is immediately conditioned by contact (mental contact > > in > > this case). > > Well, yes, I think we could say that because of the accumulated > defilements, so often it's 'automatic'...It's automatic most the time not > to 'guard the senses' as the Buddha advised. In other words it's > 'automatic' for lobha, dosa and moha and proliferations to follow the > sounds and visible objects because there's so very little sati (awareness) > for most of us. > > If we are talking about phassa (contact), then it's always a mental factor > accompanying every citta. Feeling also arises with each citta. Of course > when seeing (vipaka) experiences visible object, the feeling is > indifferent, but the feeling accompanying the dosa arising on account of > this vipaka is unpleasant. > > >I see that specific unpleasant feeling as kamma vipaka due > > to its > > dependence on having a human birth, which, itself, is kamma vipaka. > > I see your point. I suppose we can say the unpleasant feeling is > indirectly dependent on birth (vipaka as you say). If there was no birth > consciousness, there would be no other realities arising at all. Still, I > don't think we can refer to the unpleasant feeling accompanying dosa as > 'kamma vipaka', unlike the unpleasant bodily feeling accompanying body > consciousness (vipaka). > > Oh dear, even on holiday without texts, I'm in danger of sounding > doctrinnaire... > > with metta nonetheless, > Sarah > ========================= > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11295 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) (III) Rob Ep Part III (and final? coming up) > If I had come up with this idea myself, I might doubt it, but there is > no doubt > that there is a great tradition in Buddhism that is many centuries old, > promoting > meditative practices as a core essential of the Buddhist path. One may > argue the > extent to which Buddha promoted meditation as an expedient means in the > Suttas, > but there is no doubt that Buddhists in many traditions all over the > world > practice mindfulness and insight meditation, whether they follow the > breath, note > the breath, attempt to observe arising experiences, or attempt to focus > on > specific objects of mind. It would be a lot easier for us all if traditional acceptance counted for anything, but unfortunately it doesn't - see the Kalama's sutta. (In any event, the real traditional views of the teachings are those found in the most ancient texts, from which some of us quote from time to time.) I would now like to give my thoughts on the specific questions you raised. > 1/ I think it's correct to say that everyone starts with wrong view, > and that > wrong view continues to one extent or another as long as ignorance > persists? Yes, pretty much so. Just a minor refinement. Wrong view is eliminated at the stage of sotapanna-ship, ignorance only at attainment to arahantship > 2/ Then the question is, what to do to correct wrong view and foster > right view > and right practice. Right view (panna cetasika/insight - seeing dhammas as they truly are) is the only means by which wrong view can be corrected, and is also right practice in and of itself. So we are back at the same old question - what are the necessary factors for the development of panna/insight? > 3/ Clearly, reading suttas and understanding the nature of mindfulness, > insight > and wisdom is very important, with or without the support and > clarification of a > qualified teacher, which is better than not having one! As mentioned elsewhere, meeting the right friend is the first and foremost of the necessary factors. This is becasue without hearing them explained *as we need to hear them*, reading the suttas may in fact simply reinforce existing wrong view. > 4/ Then the question is, during this period of relative delusion, but > after one > has been convinced of the basic truth of the dhamma and wants to > progress, what > constitutes correct practice? considering what has been explained or read in the right light, and its application to the *present* present moment. > 5/ To hedge my bets, I would say that practicing mindfulness to the > extent > possible at each moment in daily life is both a most significant > practice and a > most significant goal. (Sound like there's a major qualification to this coming next!!) Is there any better use of the present moment, in your view? > 6/ I also believe that relatively undistracted periods of meditation is > a greatly > expedient technique for achieving progress in the qualities that lead to > higher > attainments. I will leave aside whether it is necessary or not, and > just say that > I believe it is expedient. In the realm of mindfulness, there are no expedient techniques, nor any need for them. Any technique simply serves to take one away from the present present moment. I hope this is to the point. Must fly. Our flight (Samui to BAngkok) has just been called. Apologies for the rushed message. Jon 11296 From: Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/14/02 6:51:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I see a strongly reactive mind, a mind reacting with aversion and > > > > aversion, as interfering with mindfulness and clear comprehension. The > > development of calm is a palliative with regard to this. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > I like your expression 'strongly reactive mind'. It somehow seems to > aptly describe the effect that latent tendencies for strong attachment and > aversion have. > > However, while a strongly reactive mind is no doubt counter-indicative for > those aspiring to the development of samatha, it is not a bar to the > development of mindfulness and clear comprehension. This I think is > apparent from the Satipattana Sutta itself which makes it clear that the > various arising kilesa are also to be the object of sati. > > The obstacles to the development of mindfulness and clear comprehension > are ignorance and wrong view, as I understand it. If there is a proper > grasp of the details of the teaching on mindfulness, there is no reason it > should not arise even during times of strong anger or attachment (although > not of course at the same precise moment). > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This isn't my experience. Moreover, I don't see the Buddha as having put so much emphasis on Right Concentration, defined as attaining the first 4 jhanas, and including it as part of the 8-fold path for no reason. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > I think were the situation as you suggest then the Buddha would have > taught 2 modes of development of mindfulness and clear comprehension - 1 > for those of us with strongly reactive minds and another for the fortunate > few (although proportionately many, many, more in those days) who have > attained high levels of concentration. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I see formal meditation practice as merely a part of the total > > practice. It is useful that there be an ongoing mindfulness practice > > throughout all one's daily activities. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > I note the distinction you imply between actual mindfulness and a > 'mindfulness practice'. But is this something mentioned in the suttas? ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I read the Satipatthana Sutta as a program of practice, mindfulness practice, the aim of which is the cultivation of insight. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Surely the teachings have relevance to the present> moment regardless > > > of the level of calm or other form of kusala. Do you > > > see the potential, given the right grasp of the teachings, for the > > arising > > > of awareness of any presently appearing reality (be it seeing, visible > > > object, attachment, unpleasant feeling or whatever)? > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Of course I do. What I also see is that an ongoing practice which > > > > includes cultivation of calm creates a layer of peace in the mind that > > extends beyond formal meditation periods and contributes to one's > > ongoing > > mindfulness practice. > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Likewise as regards the idea of the peace of samatha extending beyond > actual periods of samatha and somehow contributing to the 'mindfulness > practice'. Is this something you see as being consonant with any > particular part of the teachings, or is it perhaps based on personal > experience (yours or others'; just wanting to clarify, and hope you don't > mind me asking, Howard)? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is part of my experience that calm supports mindfulness and mindfulness supports calm, and the cultivation of calm was a central part of the practice taught by the Buddha .. again, and again, and again. --------------------------------------------------------- > > As always, appreciate your carefully considered views, Howard. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Jon. Likewise. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11297 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) (III) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Part III (and final? coming up) > > > If I had come up with this idea myself, I might doubt it, but there is > > no doubt > > that there is a great tradition in Buddhism that is many centuries old, > > promoting > > meditative practices as a core essential of the Buddhist path. One may > > argue the > > extent to which Buddha promoted meditation as an expedient means in the > > Suttas, > > but there is no doubt that Buddhists in many traditions all over the > > world > > practice mindfulness and insight meditation, whether they follow the > > breath, note > > the breath, attempt to observe arising experiences, or attempt to focus > > on > > specific objects of mind. > > It would be a lot easier for us all if traditional acceptance counted for > anything, but unfortunately it doesn't - see the Kalama's sutta. > > (In any event, the real traditional views of the teachings are those found > in the most ancient texts, from which some of us quote from time to time.) > > I would now like to give my thoughts on the specific questions you raised. > > > 1/ I think it's correct to say that everyone starts with wrong view, > > and that > > wrong view continues to one extent or another as long as ignorance > > persists? > > Yes, pretty much so. Just a minor refinement. Wrong view is eliminated > at the stage of sotapanna-ship, ignorance only at attainment to > arahantship > > > 2/ Then the question is, what to do to correct wrong view and foster > > right view > > and right practice. > > Right view (panna cetasika/insight - seeing dhammas as they truly are) is > the only means by which wrong view can be corrected, and is also right > practice in and of itself. So we are back at the same old question - what > are the necessary factors for the development of panna/insight? > > > 3/ Clearly, reading suttas and understanding the nature of mindfulness, > > insight > > and wisdom is very important, with or without the support and > > clarification of a > > qualified teacher, which is better than not having one! > > As mentioned elsewhere, meeting the right friend is the first and foremost > of the necessary factors. This is becasue without hearing them explained > *as we need to hear them*, reading the suttas may in fact simply reinforce > existing wrong view. > > > 4/ Then the question is, during this period of relative delusion, but > > after one > > has been convinced of the basic truth of the dhamma and wants to > > progress, what > > constitutes correct practice? > > considering what has been explained or read in the right light, and its > application to the *present* present moment. > > > 5/ To hedge my bets, I would say that practicing mindfulness to the > > extent > > possible at each moment in daily life is both a most significant > > practice and a > > most significant goal. > > (Sound like there's a major qualification to this coming next!!) > > Is there any better use of the present moment, in your view? > > > 6/ I also believe that relatively undistracted periods of meditation is > > a greatly > > expedient technique for achieving progress in the qualities that lead to > > higher > > attainments. I will leave aside whether it is necessary or not, and > > just say that > > I believe it is expedient. > > In the realm of mindfulness, there are no expedient techniques, nor any > need for them. Any technique simply serves to take one away from the > present present moment. > > I hope this is to the point. It is to the point, I just disagree. I don't see any reason why sitting to concentrate on the present moment would make the present moment more obscure, nor why practicing something in a 'cool' setting will deprive one of doing it in a more busy 'hot' setting, but rather the contrary, that it will help, nor why training in discernment is any more artificial than reading suttas to try to understand the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha never said that one can only practice 'in the natural setting', did he? I would like to know where in the tradition of abhidhamma the idea that meditation had a negative influence on understanding arose. It seems the opposite of how Buddhist philosophy is generally interpreted. Am I mistaken? > Must fly. Our flight (Samui to BAngkok) has just been called. Apologies > for the rushed message. > > Jon good to talk to you Jon. Best, Robert Ep. 11298 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Dear Jon, I still don't understand how our limitations in discerning dictates against practice. Whether or not we are able to presently discern the reality of each moment from moment to moment, the attempt to do so will lead to greater ability. I know that you don't believe this from what you have said, but still don't understand your reasoning very well. Is it really enough to understand that consciousness is a moment to moment phenomena? *Any* attempt to apply the suttas to daily life can be described as a 'technique', just as meditating may be described as a technique to do the same, and it seems to me that some sort of application, however awkward, is exactly what is called for. If meditating is something I do, it becomes part of daily living, and is therefore at least as eligible for discernment as any other daily activity. Best, Robert Ep. ====================== --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Let me continue my reply to your post (working backwards). > > > It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I > > meditate. It > > makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering the > > phone, > > jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the day, > > that all of > > these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still and > > observing a less busy field of experience. ... > > Meditation is ... a concentrated period in which one > > focuses the mind on the moment. > > I am sure that many would share your view that awareness of a presently > appearing reality means or suggests 'following' the mind as it jumps from > one activity to another. Yet I think that is a wholly impossible task, > and not really what the Buddha was describing for the development of the > path. It's true that we can find in the suttas descriptions of all the > different mind-states (and other realities), and how extremely fast these > change from one to the other. But only the likes of a Buddha can ever get > to see the mind on a purely moment-to-moment basis. > > For us, as beginners, it is enough to know that consciousness *is* a > moment-to-moment phenomenom and hence a constantly changing one, so that > we do not assume it to be otherwise. When we read in, say, the > Satipatthana Sutta about awareness of a presently appearing reality (e.g. > seeing or visible object), there is nothing that requires this to be *only > a single moment* of that reality. As I understand, there may be many > moments of awareness of the same object as it arises in an apparently > continuous stream (since we don't have the discernment to see these things > on a moment to moment basis). Initially, it is the characteristic of > being a nama or a rupa, or of appearing through a particular doorway, that > is apparent, rather than its purely momentary nature (not to mention the > even more 'advanced' characteristics of impermanence etc.). > > What I am trying to say, Rob, is that the idea of awareness as involving > or being a function of our focussing on the present moment and following > the activity of the mind needs to be put aside if the true nature of the > presently appearing reality is to be discerned. > > Jon > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Thanks for your response. I appreciate your clear explanation as > > always. Let me > > make a few comments in response to your message. > > > > 1/ I think it's correct to say that everyone starts with wrong view, > > and that > > wrong view continues to one extent or another as long as ignorance > > persists? > > > > 2/ Then the question is, what to do to correct wrong view and foster > > right view > > and right practice. > > > > 3/ Clearly, reading suttas and understanding the nature of mindfulness, > > insight > > and wisdom is very important, with or without the support and > > clarification of a > > qualified teacher, which is better than not having one! > > > > 4/ Then the question is, during this period of relative delusion, but > > after one > > has been convinced of the basic truth of the dhamma and wants to > > progress, what > > constitutes correct practice? > > > > 5/ To hedge my bets, I would say that practicing mindfulness to the > > extent > > possible at each moment in daily life is both a most significant > > practice and a > > most significant goal. > > > > 6/ I also believe that relatively undistracted periods of meditation is > > a greatly > > expedient technique for achieving progress in the qualities that lead to > > higher > > attainments. I will leave aside whether it is necessary or not, and > > just say that > > I believe it is expedient. > > > > If I had come up with this idea myself, I might doubt it, but there is > > no doubt > > that there is a great tradition in Buddhism that is many centuries old, > > promoting > > meditative practices as a core essential of the Buddhist path. One may > > argue the > > extent to which Buddha promoted meditation as an expedient means in the > > Suttas, > > but there is no doubt that Buddhists in many traditions all over the > > world > > practice mindfulness and insight meditation, whether they follow the > > breath, note > > the breath, attempt to observe arising experiences, or attempt to focus > > on > > specific objects of mind. > > > > It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I > > meditate. It > > makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering the > > phone, > > jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the day, > > that all of > > these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still and > > observing > > a less busy field of experience. Is the former a worthy and necessary > > practice? > > Yes. Does meditation help to develop this potentiality? To me the > > answer is a > > very big yes. One can argue that I may be fooling myself and really > > developing a > > satisfying sense of progress while really increasing ignorance in some > > way, but I > > don't see why that would be the case, any more than it might be the case > > if I > > 'thought' I was becoming more discerning in daily life. If one > > concentrates on > > learning something in general, one learns it faster. Meditation is no > > different > > than any other study in that sense, it is a concentrated period in which > > one > > focuses the mind on the moment. > > > > I don't think there is anywhere in the suttas where Buddha says that > > meditation is > > a negative or delusory practice. So I find it hard to understand why it > > seems to > > be taken as a negative to some extent by yourself and others who follow > > the > > Abhidhamma. Am I wrong that this is the case? It seems that there is > > some > > caution in doing a specific practice that is not included in studying > > the suttas > > and discerning the moment in daily life. Perhaps there is a reason for > > this, but > > I don't quite understand it at present. > > > > I look forward to your response. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ================================ > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Rob Ep > > > > > > From the context of your post (ie., in reply to my sutta reference > > about > > > the factors for development of insight/for enlightenment), I think the > > > question you are posing for discussion is this: If a form of practice > > is > > > intuitively and self-evidently seen as leading to greater insight, > > does it > > > matter that it varies from the factors for development as stated in > > the > > > texts? (Hope i've not over-stated you here, Rob) > > > > > > The difficulty with this proposition is that we all know from > > experience > > > that what seemed intuitively and self-evidently ‘right’ some time ago > > (for > > > example, at a former stage of our lives) is now seen in hindsight as > > the > > > product of uninformed ideas or misguided aspirations (no matter how > > > honestly held at the time). > > > > > > The explanation for this is I think quite simple; the 'usual > > suspects' of > > > ignorance and wrong view about realities, and an unrealistic > > assessment of > > > our own capabilities. > > > > > > I believe these same factors are still with us today, although perhaps > > in > > > somewhat more disguised form. > > > > > > I know from other threads, Rob, that you place great importance on > > having > > > a thorough conceptual grasp of the nature of nibbana, as explained by > > the > > > Buddha, as a proper basis for the practice. I am not sure why, when > > it > > > comes to the real essentials of practice, conformity with the texts is > > > generally seen as being of less importance, or even an unnecessary > > delay > > > to embarking on so-called ‘actual practice’. Surely a clear > > intellectual > > > grasp of these qualities called mindfulness and insight about which > > the > > > Buddha spoke, and of how those qualities are to be developed, is an > > > indispensable first step. > > > > > > No doubt the idea of 'concentrated and repeated attention to the > > moment > > > with the least amount of distraction', as mentioned in you post, seems > > > intuitively self-evident, but to my knowledge nowhere in the texts are > > the > > > factors of volitional (forced?) effort and a quiet place given as > > > prerequisites, in the sense of *must do’s, must have’s*, for the > > > development of awareness and insight into presently arising realities. > > > > > > When you think about it, there is an inherent inconsistency in the > > idea of > > > attention that is *to the moment* and yet that requires that moment to > > be > > > *with the least amount of distraction*. Surely ‘the moment’ is simply > > the > > > moment, with or without perceived distractions. > > > > > > Actually, what you refer to as distractions are essentially and > > ultimately > > > the same dhammas that we seek to have awareness of and insight into. > > > Seeing them as distractions simply conceptualises them, and takes us > > > further away from the present moment. It is really a kind of > > > 'reification' in the abstract. > > > > > > At one level we can accept that it is only the present moment that has > > any > > > significance as regards awareness of and insight into dhammas. The > > fact > > > that we nevertheless persist in thinking in terms of present moments > > other > > > than the *present* present moment (!) suggests that we have only a > > > superficial appreciation of this. Seeing in ourselves the tendency to > > shy > > > away from understanding the presently appearing reality, on whatever > > > pretext, can be the first step in exposing normally unrecognised wrong > > > view. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, 11299 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > There is much in the following that I agree with, for example the > > > > relevance of motivation and underlying sense urgency for effective > > volition. > > Where we differ is, in part, a matter of emphasis. I detect a flavor of > > "randomness" in your analysis, a randomness tending towards the nihilist > > pole > > of wrong view, whereas my tendency is towards the opposite > > substantialist > > pole of wrong view. But most precisely, where we differ is on the issue > > of > > whether the Buddha provided a training program (my position) or only a > > statement of what conditions foster what results (your apparent > > position). > > I seem to recall that 'trainer of gods and men' is one of the attributes > of a Buddha, so I hesitate to give my unqualified agreement to your > characterisation of our difference! > > Let me just say that I'm not aware of any 'program' laid down by the > Buddha for attaining enlightenment. > > I do, however, see the teachings as making known, and encouraging the > development of, the factors that lead to enlightenment. > > Jon Jon, I'm just picking on you, but how is encouraging the development of a set of specific factors that lead to a given result, different than 'laying down a program'? I think it is more a question of what one's philosophy is. As I read it, your point of view goes something like this [I am standing up so you can knock me down]: 1/ there is no self. 2/ therefore there is no one that has volition. 3/ therefore there is no control. 4/ therefore there can be no program that 'one' engages in to get a result. 5/ therefore taking on mundane efforts like meditating or trying to be mindful in order to progress merely enforces the illusion that there is a volitional ego. 6/ therefore the attempt to make progress makes progress more difficult. 7/ therefore there is only one correct path, and that is to do whatever you are already doing, but see clearly to the extent possible, and without creating a separate effort, to discern the true characteristic of the moment My only problem with this, if it is correct, is that even the attempt to read the suttas and apply one's understanding to the 'naturally occurring moment in daily living' is as much a volitional effort as sitting down to meditate. I don't think there's any way to escape the fact that when we set upon the path to try to transcend the illusion of the self and discern the true nature of the moment, we are using the illusion of the volitional self in order to get rid of the illusion of the volitional self. This paradox, I believe, should be utilized, rather than danced away from. The illusion of passivity when in fact one is trying as hard as possible to find the way to enlightenment seems to me to add another layer of illusion on top of the one we already have. Even if we 'try hard' there is still actually no volitional self. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is no 'volition'. Best, Robert Ep. 11300 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact Thanks, Jon. I understand what you're saying to some extent. I would ask you though, do you really consider meditation a neutral activity like any other? It seems like you are against taking up meditation practice. If I am wrong, I just want to get clear that this is really not the case. If it is not the case, then I would think you would say 'well meditate it if you want to, but don't be fooled into thinking that this in itself will guarantee the development of the path factors in you'. Is that the case? It also seems from what you say below, that you consider the Abhidhamma indispensible for correct application of the teachings. Do you believe that those who do not study the Abhidhamma cannot reach enlightenment, even if they are following the Buddha's teachings through the suttas? I personally do not believe there is one and only one correct path and that it must be followed in one specified way or enlightenment cannot be gained. I personally feel that the Buddha's teachings are clearly developed in very different ways in the Tibetan Tradition, in Zen, and most certainly in the Theravadin tradition, which itself has quite a lot of variety in terms of emphasis. My evidence for that is that there are very strong pronouncements of the fruits of enlightenment in all of these traditions over hundreds of years. But of course, one must have 'faith' or some other basis for feeling that these pronouncements are true. Do you believe that the Buddha indicated that the Abhidhamma is the only path that leads to enlightenment, and that the 'Masters' of other traditions are deluded? Best, Robert Ep. ================= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep and later, Howard and Victor > > Thanks for your considered and clearly expressed comments. > > > I don't think there is anywhere in the suttas where Buddha says that > > meditation is > > a negative or delusory practice. So I find it hard to understand why it > > seems to > > be taken as a negative to some extent by yourself and others who follow > > the > > Abhidhamma. Am I wrong that this is the case? It seems that there is > > some > > caution in doing a specific practice that is not included in studying > > the suttas > > and discerning the moment in daily life. > > As far as 'specific practices' are concerned, I don't believe there are > any given by the Buddha, and I include here studying the suttas and > discerning the present moment. > > What the teachings are all about, to my understanding, is the why's and > wherefore's of the means to enlightenment, and the factors that are a > necessary prerequisite for (and precursor of) that enlightenment. > > You mention the Buddha's attitude towards meditation. If by 'meditation' > you mean formal practice of some kind, that could of course be either with > right view or with wrong view ('meditation' itself being a morally neutral > term). So we are back with the same old question of how right view is to > be developed. > > I would like to try and bring in here Victor's post on beings/no beings > and Howard's post on Suttanta vs. Abhidhamma discrepancies. I see a > common thread. > > As Victor points out, the suttas talk about, and in terms of, beings and > individuals. Does this mean beings and individuals exist in the absolute > (fundamental, real) sense and, if not, what does? > > The clear answer provided by the commentaries and abhidhamma is that there > is no such thing as beings or individulas, only namas > (cittas/cetasikas)and rupas. > > Does this mean there is any discrepancy between the suttas and the > abhidhamma? Absolutely not. > > Could the same answer be found in the suttas once we have grasped the > truth of this? Yes, it can, but we wouldn't have seen it just from a > reading of the suttas (no matter how many times or how carefully we read > them). > > Now what applies as regards beings/no beings applies equally to other > asepcts of the teachings also. When we read the suttas we see the Buddha > as talking about: > - beings (individuals like us) > - who exert effort > - and practise the 4 satipattha's > - to develop insight > - so they can follow the Noble Eightfold Path > - until attaining enlightenment. > > As understanding begins to develop, however, we start to realise that what > the Buddha is actually talking about is: > - mere aggregations of namas and rupas (the 5 khandhas) > - mental factors such as viriya (energy) performing their functions > - momentary and unforced awareness (another mental factor) directly > experiencing a reality (any reality) > - the momentary arising of direct knowledge (panna cetasika) of a > presently appearing reality > - a moment of path consciousness (magga citta) at each of 4 levels of > enlightenment [these being the path] > > There are no discrepancies here, only different ways of saying the same > things. > > It is a difficult proposition to accept, but the suttas are way over our > heads in terms of our ability to understand the essential message > conveyed. They were pitched at an audience whose level of attainment was > far beyond our own present level. We need the assistance of the > abhidhamma, the commentaries and, most of all, the kalayana mitta (good > dhamma friend) to understand their true import. > > So whether we are talking about beings, practice or contact, we need to > look beyond the mere words of the suttas. > > Jon > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Thanks for your response. I appreciate your clear explanation as > > always. Let me > > make a few comments in response to your message. > > > > 1/ I think it's correct to say that everyone starts with wrong view, > > and that > > wrong view continues to one extent or another as long as ignorance > > persists? > > > > 2/ Then the question is, what to do to correct wrong view and foster > > right view > > and right practice. > > > > 3/ Clearly, reading suttas and understanding the nature of mindfulness, > > insight > > and wisdom is very important, with or without the support and > > clarification of a > > qualified teacher, which is better than not having one! > > > > 4/ Then the question is, during this period of relative delusion, but > > after one > > has been convinced of the basic truth of the dhamma and wants to > > progress, what > > constitutes correct practice? > > > > 5/ To hedge my bets, I would say that practicing mindfulness to the > > extent > > possible at each moment in daily life is both a most significant > > practice and a > > most significant goal. > > > > 6/ I also believe that relatively undistracted periods of meditation is > > a greatly > > expedient technique for achieving progress in the qualities that lead to > > higher > > attainments. I will leave aside whether it is necessary or not, and > > just say that > > I believe it is expedient. > > > > If I had come up with this idea myself, I might doubt it, but there is > > no doubt > > that there is a great tradition in Buddhism that is many centuries old, > > promoting > > meditative practices as a core essential of the Buddhist path. One may > > argue the > > extent to which Buddha promoted meditation as an expedient means in the > > Suttas, > > but there is no doubt that Buddhists in many traditions all over the > > world > > practice mindfulness and insight meditation, whether they follow the > > breath, note > > the breath, attempt to observe arising experiences, or attempt to focus > > on > > specific objects of mind. > > > > It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I > > meditate. It > > makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering the > > phone, > > jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the day, > > that all of > > these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still and > > observing > > a less busy field of experience. Is the former a worthy and necessary > > practice? > > Yes. Does meditation help to develop this potentiality? To me the > > answer is a > > very big yes. One can argue that I may be fooling myself and really > > developing a > > satisfying sense of progress while really increasing ignorance in some > > way, but I > > don't see why that would be the case, any more than it might be the case > > if I > > 'thought' I was becoming more discerning in daily life. If one > > concentrates on > > learning something in general, one learns it faster. Meditation is no > > different > > than any other study in that sense, it is a concentrated period in which > > one > > focuses the mind on the moment. > > > > I don't think there is anywhere in the suttas where Buddha says that > > meditation is > > a negative or delusory practice. So I find it hard to understand why it > > seems to > > be taken as a negative to some extent by yourself and others who follow > > the > > Abhidhamma. Am I wrong that this is the case? It seems that there is > > some > > caution in doing a specific practice that is not included in studying > > the suttas > > and discerning the moment in daily life. Perhaps there is a reason for > > this, but > > I don't quite understand it at present. > > > > I look forward to your response. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ================================ > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Rob Ep > > > > > > From the context of your post (ie., in reply to my sutta reference > > about > > > the factors for development of insight/for enlightenment), I think the > > > question you are posing for discussion is this: If a form of practice > > is > > > intuitively and self-evidently seen as leading to greater insight, > > does it > > > matter that it varies from the factors for development as stated in > > the > > > texts? (Hope i've not over-stated you here, Rob) > > > > > > The difficulty with this proposition is that we all know from > > experience > > > that what seemed intuitively and self-evidently ‘right’ some time ago > > (for > > > example, at a former stage of our lives) is now seen in hindsight as > > the > > > product of uninformed ideas or misguided aspirations (no matter how > > > honestly held at the time). > > > > > > The explanation for this is I think quite simple; the 'usual > > suspects' of > > > ignorance and wrong view about realities, and an unrealistic > > assessment of > > > our own capabilities. > > > > > > I believe these same factors are still with us today, although perhaps > > in > > > somewhat more disguised form. > > > > > > I know from other threads, Rob, that you place great importance on > > having > > > a thorough conceptual grasp of the nature of nibbana, as explained by > > the > > > Buddha, as a proper basis for the practice. I am not sure why, when > > it > > > comes to the real essentials of practice, conformity with the texts is > > > generally seen as being of less importance, or even an unnecessary > > delay > > > to embarking on so-called ‘actual practice’. Surely a clear > > intellectual > > > grasp of these qualities called mindfulness and insight about which > > the > > > Buddha spoke, and of how those qualities are to be developed, is an > > > indispensable first step. > > > > > > No doubt the idea of 'concentrated and repeated attention to the > > moment > > > with the least amount of distraction', as mentioned in you post, seems > > > intuitively self-evident, but to my knowledge nowhere in the texts are > > the > > > factors of volitional (forced?) effort and a quiet place given as > > > prerequisites, in the sense of *must do’s, must have’s*, for the > > > development of awareness and insight into presently arising realities. > > > > > > When you think about it, there is an inherent inconsistency in the > > idea of > > > attention that is *to the moment* and yet that requires that moment to > > be > > > *with the least amount of distraction*. Surely ‘the moment’ is simply > > the > > > moment, with or without perceived distractions. > > > > > > Actually, what you refer to as distractions are essentially and > > ultimately > > > the same dhammas that we seek to have awareness of and insight into. > > > Seeing them as distractions simply conceptualises them, and takes us > > > further away from the present moment. It is really a kind of > > > 'reification' in the abstract. > > > > > > At one level we can accept that it is only the present moment that has > > any > > > significance as regards awareness of and insight into dhammas. The > > fact > > > that we nevertheless persist in thinking in terms of present moments > > other > > > than the *present* present moment (!) suggests that we have only a > > > superficial appreciation of this. Seeing in ourselves the tendency to > > shy > > > away from understanding the presently appearing reality, on whatever > > > pretext, can be the first step in exposing normally unrecognised wrong > > > view. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, 11301 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Dear Jon, Your explanation was helpful. As wrong as it may be, the way I'm conceiving it at the moment is that the rupa is the endpoint of the nama, where it apprehends what seems to be the object. It is the object pole of the citta whose object is the rupa. Okay, I'm out of chalk. Best, Robert Ep. ============= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > In this and your original post, aren't you addressing the issue from a > > > point of view that implies the reification of the external object (the > > > rock)? Doesn't any reference to an external object, as opposed to the > > > rupa being experienced at the sense-door at the moment of contact with > > > consciousness involve a reification? > > Jon, > > I totally agree. That's my problem. I don't understand how the rupa > > can be seen > > as the separate object of a nama, rather than a nama itself, without > > implicating a > > 'real object' being apprehended by perception in the sense door. Am I > > confused > > about what a rupa is? This keeps coming back to haunt me. If the rupa > > is a > > physical object, it implies a reification. If it is purely a > > sensory/mental > > object, why isn't it included as one of the namas? > > Rupas are neither namas nor physical objects. They are simply put, > realties that do not experience an object. > > But I think that trying to understand intellectually what namas are and > what rupas are can only proceed so far, because it is all conceptual. If > however we are interested in knowing more about the reality of the present > moment, by studying the present moment, then namas and rupas may have more > meaning. Namas and rupas can only really be understood in the context of > the present moment and the momentary experiences through the sense and > mind doors. > > Jon 11302 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS Hi Sarah, Apologies in advance for being kind of brusque in this post. Explanation at the end. : ) --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > After a nostalgia post full of lobha to Ranil, let me get back on the > parinibbana track here:-) > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Dan and Sarah, > > The view that the kandhas reach cessation in parinibbana may not be a > > view of > > annihilation of a self that never existed, but it is still an > > annihilationist view > > from the point of view of sentience. > > Well I think that as the quotes I’ve given before have shown clearly, when > the Buddha refers to annihilationist views, they are concerned with self > view and ignorance of the khandhas which are all that exist in actuality. > > If you like, you can refer to the cessation of the khandhas at parinibbana > or even to the cessation of the khandhas now on a moment to moment basis > as annihilation of sentience. However, I don’t beleive this would accord > with the Buddha’s use of the term which is very specific and detailed in > Suttas like the Brahmajala Suttas as well as in commentaries and other > parts of the Tipitaka.. > > > If sentience is said to cease in > > parinibbana, then the one property that is not a convenient fiction but > > actually > > takes place is said to be annihilated. > > I think, with respect, this is your definition of annihilation;-). Then what is your definition of sentience? My view of annihilation is that something is destroyed or made to cease. A cooler term is cessation but means basically the same thing. > > There must be a distinction between awakening and cessation. While > > certain things > > cease in parinibbana, does it make sense for the awakening to cease as > > well? In > > that view, the awake state of nibbana also ceases upon death, and that > > makes > > nibbana dependent on physical existence, a strange contradiction in > > terms. > > I take it that by awakening you mean the experience of nibbana, either at > each stage of enlightenment or just at arahantship. Of course, this > ‘awakening’ is quite different to parinibbana and the cessation of the > khandhas. As we have discussed at length, the enlightened consciousness > and wisdom which expereince nibbana are also momentary. There is no > lasting experience, no lasting nama and no lasting rupa. Just as the experience of ignorance goes on continuously although consisting of many different sequential moments, the experience of 'wakefulness' or enlightenment will go on for many moments once ignorance has been eliminated. The experience of being awake is nothing but the clear seeing of what is when ignorance has been removed, so even though it may occur in individual moments it will continue to occur in one who has been awakened. Certainly we wouldn't say that an arahant or Buddha had alternate moments of being enlightened and deluded since all delusion has been eradicated for him. Even if the experience of 'nibbana' is a one-moment experience [something which I respectfully do not understand from anything I've seen in the suttas] the experience of 'liberation' would be continous after that, even if it occurs from moment to moment. If parinibbana is the cessation of this liberated series of cittas, then what is being made to 'cease' in parinibbana is the flow of enlightened cittas. > We don’t say that nibbana is conditioned or depends on ‘physical > existence’ or anything else, but the namas which experience it do. What is nibbana by the way, if it is a sort of solitary object that is perceived for a moment only by arahants? Where does it exist and how is it upheld when no one is perceiving it? Or does nibbana only come into being as an object at the moment when the arahant reaches the point of being able to discern it? And what is the characteristic of nibbana as an object? I have always thought of nibbana as a state in which ignorance has been removed, not an object. I don't quite understand what kind of object it is meant to be, and why it is an object rather than a state. Without > the experiencing of a reality, can we say it exists, except conceptually, > as just discussed with regard to rupas? > > Hope this clarifies a little. I have to run like Num;-) > > Always good to hear from you, Rob, > Sarah > ======================== Thank you, Sarah. You too. Why is everyone always running? I'm always out of breath myself. I'm sorry I sound kind of mean in this post. I realized midway that it was from you and not from Jon. We've been tough with each other lately [male thing ], but I have a tendency to want to be a little nicer with you. Although I suspect that you are actually just as tough. It's just my delusion as usual. : ) With affection, Robert Ep. 11303 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:32pm Subject: Re: another vote for skillful - Re: [dsg] glossing kusala Hi Sarah, Heh heh. I think Frank's photo must be in by now -- I'm working my way backwards through posts, and guaranteeing I won't get enough sleep tonight..... Well, I'll have to go look. Driver's license will do! Yes, we're united by our drive to fill the photo album with everyone's picture. I may as well come out publicly and say that I'd like Anders to send his pboto over. Anders, are you there? If not I'll have to ask him privately. Hope Kom's has arrived by now...... Best, Rob Ep. ============ --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob Ep again, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > P.S. Sarah, Dan has indeed left you holding the bag, as all of the > > 'skillful' [or > > unskillful] arguers leap out of the woodwork. > > > > ============== > > I know.... panic attack;-) Still I have an idea that you, Frank and I are > on the same 'skilful side' - Dan didn't get too many 'wholesome' votes, > though I'm a bit of a 'blow with the breeze' on this issue.....desperate > for an easy life;-) > > We're also very much on the same side when it comes to the photo > album.....I think we'll have to gratefully accept Frank's driving licence > photo as it's such a major concession, even though the convict one would > have added a little more variety to the album. (You don't think he 'owns' > a car as well as a computer, do you?;-)) > > Sarah > > p.s more good news..Kom's photo is on its way to the album....slowly due > to technical probs;-) > ====================================================== 11304 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Thanks Sarah, I will save this and read it slowly. Very interesting. Best, Robert Ep. ==== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Thanks for your > efforts, Sarah. > > I think the main point I'm trying to communicate here is obviously not > > clear, at > > least in the way I'm putting it. > > > > Perhaps you could clarify what is meant by the 'actual' rupa. > > That was a polite way of saying that perhaps I went off the track in a > reply;-) > > I think you would find it useful to read Nina’s very useful (and recently > revised, I believe) booklet on rupas. In particular, I recommend the > introduction at this stage (very short;-): > http://www.dhammastudy.com/Rupas1.html > > Let me quote a little from it: > ***** > “As regards physical phenomena or rupa, there are twentyeight kinds of > rupa in all. Rupas are not merely textbook terms, they are realities which > can be directly experienced. Rupas do not know or experience anything; > they can be known by nama. Rupa arises and falls away, but it does not > fall away as quickly as nama. When a characteristic of rupa such as > hardness impinges on the bodysense it can be experienced through the > bodysense by several cittas arising in succession within a process. But > even though rupa lasts longer than citta, it falls away again, it is > impermanent.” > ***** > > > If that > > is not > > meant to denote an actual object in the 'real' world, but simply a > > present reality > > for perception, then the problem may not be there. > > I think this depends on whether we are discussing what is being > experienced now (and therefore what can be directly known) or whether we > are discussing the rupas which arise and fall regardless of any experience > of them. Again I quote from Nina: > ***** > “There are not only rupas of the body, there are also rupas which are the > material phenomena outside the body. What we take for rocks, plants or > houses are rupas and these originate from temperature. We may wonder > whether there are no other factors apart from the element of heat which > contribute to the growth of plants, such as soil, light and moisture. It > is true that these factors are the right conditions which have to be > present so that a plant can grow. But what we call soil, light and > moisture are, when we are more precise, different compositions of rupas > and none of these could arise without the element of heat or temperature > which is the producing factor. Rupas which are outside the body are only > produced by temperature, not by kamma, citta or nutrition.” > ***** > > > What I have been > > trying to say > > is that a 'reality' may be true as a perceptual experience, but if one > > says > > 'hardness' or some other rupa is 'actual', it seems to imply that it > > exists in the > > 'real world' outside of perception. If nothing beyond the act of > > perception is > > spoken of, then I can see rupa being actual and accurate as a perceptual > > object, > > but not as an object that can be said to really exist. > > > > If that is any clearer, great. If not, I'll let it go for now. : ) > > I see your point (I think;-) and I understand the confusion. In terms of > what is important for the development of understanding, only phenomena > being directly experienced can ever be ‘known’. So hardness is being > experienced now every time there is touching of the keyboard. There may, > therefore, be conditions for its charactristic to be the object of > awareness at this moment. As understanding of its nature develops and as > it becomes more and more apparent that it is a rupa and not self, it > becomes clear that this is the characteristic of hardness regardless of > whether it is being directly known at this moment . > > This is how it must be for others too. By inference also, it becomes > apparent that external objects that had been taken for ‘things’ such as > trees and computers are in fact only collections of rupas, but if there is > no touching or seeing them, it is only thinking (wisely, hopefully) about > them. Gradually, with more direct understanding of those phenomena being > directly experienced, there is more confidence in the other intricate > details which the Buddha described about rupas which is purely > intellectual at this stage. Even if direct insight develops to very high > enlightened levels, some thinking or understanding of phenomena will > continue to be at the intellectual level only. No one could directly > understand all the intricate details as the Buddha did. > > Nina summarises the purpose of studying rupas here: > ***** > “Rupas perform their functions, no matter one dresses oneself, eats, > digests one’s food, moves about, gesticulates, talks to others, in short, > during all one’s activities. If we do not study rupas we may not notice > their characteristics which appear all the time in daily life. We will > continue to be deluded by the outward appearance of things instead of > knowing realities as they are. We should remember that the rupa which is > the “earth-element” or solidity can appear as hardness or softness. > Hardness impinges time and again on the bodysense, no matter what we are > doing. When hardness appears it can be known as only a kind of rupa, be it > hardness of the body or hardness of an external object. In the ultimate > sense it is only a kind of rupa. The detailed study of nama and rupa will > help us to see that there isn’t anything which is “mine” or self. The goal > of the study of the Abhidhamma is the development of wisdom which leads to > the eradication of all defilements.” > ***** > I hope a little more light has got in this time too;-) > > Sarah > ====================================================== 11305 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important - Anders --- anders_honore wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- anders_honore wrote: > > > > > I am not saying to avoid it. Indeed, I will say that such a > > > perception is extremely skilful. But it is perception > nonetheless, > > > and thus only 'partial emptiness'. > > > > Well, Anders, we're pretty close on this. But still have a > familiar problem with > > eliminating samsara in order to have a pure experience of > emptiness, nibbana, or > > other enlightened qualities. If you say that emptiness is 'full' > or 'partial' > > depending on whether phenomena arise or not, > > I am not talking about the seeing of emptiness in dependence on the > absence of phenomena or not, but in dependence on the absence of > ignorance. Anders, I don't know if you're still around here, but that is a good distinction. Thanks. Robert Ep. 11306 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Watching experiences vs. Right Effort (was, Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical?) Lucy --- Lucy wrote: > Dear Jon > > Ooooh. I'm a bit weak in the "Patience" department... Aren't we all! Oddly enough, this may not be a problem. The realities that the Buddha talked about do not necessarily correspond to their conventional counterparts of the same name, and so it is with patience. A person may have endless patience of the conventional kind but none for the development of understanding of realities, and vice versa. > Seriously now, the expectation for quick results can be a very big > hurdle. > The funny thing is, the results appear in areas one doesn't anticipate, > often we don't even notice there have been "results" > > The other day, I was very happy to discover that I now tend to allow the > car behind to overtake mine without even showing the driver two of my > fingers. Now, that is a very important step for me... Without wishing to be discouraging, Lucy, you may find that this apparent progress is not as settled as you might hope. The understanding of realites is not a means of bringing about radical changes in one's personality, or even of 'dealing with' the grosser defilements. But if it helps to reduce the potential for road rage incidents, hey, keep it up. Jon 11307 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dealing with daily issues Dear Lucy & All, --- Lucy wrote: > > No matter how much we consider, what arises is rarely what one expects So very true and the reason that expectations are so useless, I think. > and/or our way of dealing with what arises often surprises us...No, > "consideration" doesn't really help at all. But it seems to me that > there > is something in the Dhamma that prepares us to deal with issues. It's > like > a gentle, effortless training more than a conscious work-out. Somehow, > when the "issue" arises, we discover that we can deal with it. And we > don't > even need to scratch our head to think: "now where in the suttas did I > read > about a solution to this?" Actually, I think the wise consideration helps a lot, but perhaps your point is that this is not the same as the direct understanding or practice which is maybe what you mean by 'dealing with'here. > > You're right there. It isn't a 'dealing with', it's more > going-along-with...or something like that. But don't you think there is > also a case for going along with the "idea of self 'doing' "? Just > allowing > it to develop and let the "self" bump its ugly head against a wall ot > something? It's just that "self" always has a way to spring up and > surprise - it almost seems more efficient to let "self" suffer the > frustration of being unable to do, so we can learn from its failure. Hmm....perhaps we can say that the moments of seeing "self" bumping its ugly head are moments with some kind of wise attention, but those of going along (with moha-ignorance) of 'self'doing are the reverse. I'd say the sooner panna (understanding) begins to see phenomena as being devoid of the self fantasy the better, otherwise the self will always be doing , bumping and suffering....;-) > There are times when the idea of anicca flashes in front of lobha and > one > is forced to consider how to deal with lobha in the context of impending > anicca. ....... It's useful to consider lobha as anicca, even if it's only thinking about it. Again, I don't think it's so much a matter of dealing with lobha (with any idea of self, control or wishing it away) as of understanding its nature when it arises with detachment. Otherwise it just indicates more clinging to self and hoping for less lobha perhaps, don't you think? > Enjoy your beach holiday! Mudita to all those enjoying beach holidays > !!! > I'm not envious, oh, no, I'm not AT ALL envious.... Lucy, I'm having trouble with the computer I'm at (Mike, if you're around, we're in the internet cafe you showed us in Bkk now), so I think this message which I'm not able to check may be pretty garbled. We enjoyed the beach and appreciated the mudita. I was just discussing issa (envy) with another friend who is moving to the same tropical island for weeks or MONTHS....so I fully appreciate the mixed cittas;-)Except for any lurking sotapannas, we all get tested in this regard. > Lucy > PS I'll have to take up "envy" as next week's cetasika I'll look forward to that anytime;-) Actually the topic came up briefly in our discussion w/K.Sujin this afternoon, so I'll try to add one or two comments when I get back to Hong Kong and a computer I understand. I'm not wishing to test the mudita vs issa, but just to let you know that Christine has also come up to join us again for the weekend and she also raised many useful topics today including death and kamma-vipaka. My patience has run out here, so I'll probably leave the rest til I get home. Sarah ======================== 11308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 10:30am Subject: India Ch 2, no 1 India, Ch 2, no. 1: Chapter 2 The Teaching of the Abhidhamma We read in the ³Expositor², the Commentary to ³Buddhist Psychological Ethics, the first of the seven Books of the Abhidhamma (I, Introductory Discourse, 1-4), that the prefix ³abhi² in Abhidhamma is used in the sense of preponderance and distinction. The Abhidhamma exceeds and is distinguished from the other Dhamma, namely the Suttanta. In the Abhidhamma all realities are classified fully and in all details. We read in the ³Introductory Discourse² of the ³Expositor² that the Buddha, during the fourth week after his attainment of Enlightenment, sat in the ³Jewel House², contemplating the seven books of the Abhidhamma. I paid respect at this place when we were in Bodhgaya. Near the Jewel House is a stupa commemorating the cremation place of the great Commentator Buddhaghosa, and I also paid respect there. Buddhaghosa, who lived in the first half of the fifth century A.D. , compiled and translated from Singhalese into Påli the ancient commentarial materials he found in Sri Lanka. He also wrote the ³Visuddhimagga², an Encyclopedia on Buddhism. If the Buddha had not attained enlightenment nobody would know that what we take for a person or self, for things or for the world are only different phenomena which do not last and which are not self or belonging to a self. The Abhidhamma is not theory, it explains everything that is real and that appears in our daily life. Realities that appear in our daily life have each their own characteristic that can be directly known, without having to think about them. The Buddha did not need any words in order to penetrate the truth of realities, but he used words when he explained the truth to others. We read in the Commentary to the ³Dhammapada²( Buddhist Legends, Part 3, Book 14, Story 2) that the Buddha, after having performed the ³Twin miracle²1, ascended the Heaven of the Thirtythree (Tåvatiÿsa) and taught the Abhidhamma for the sake of his mother who had passed away on the seventh day after his birth, as is always the case for the Bodhisatta¹s mother. When the Buddha wished to return to the world of men, Sakka, the King of the Devas, created three ladders: one of gold, one of jewels and one of silver. The devas descended upon the ladder of gold, Mahå-Brahma and his retinue upon the ladder of silver, and the Exalted One himself upon the ladder of jewels. The Buddha came down at the gate of the city Saòkassa. We visited this place and paid respect. We went up the hill that marks the place and there we had a Dhamma discussion. Acharn Sujin reminded us to have patience with regard to the development of the eightfold Path. She said that at the Buddha¹s time there were four kinds of people with different capabilities to grasp the Dhamma. Some people could realize the Truth immediately when they heard the teaching (ugghaìitaññú), others after a more detailed explanation (vipacitaññú), others could gradually realize the truth through advice and questioning, wise consideration and association with a good friend in Dhamma (neyya puggala), and others again did not attain enlightenment, although they had heard much, learnt much, knew many things by heart (pada parama) 3 . The first two types of people do not exist anymore in this world. With regard to the third type of person, it is only after wise consideration of the Dhamma and mindfulness of realities over and over again that he can attain enlightenment. With regard to the fourth type of person, the pada parama, the understanding he has accumulated is not lost, it can lead to the attainment of enlightenment in a future life. We read in the Commentary to the ³Middle Length Sayings² (III, 134, Baddhekaratta Sutta, Discourse on ³One Single Excellent Night² 2), that the Buddha, in the Heaven of Thirtythree, taught the Abhidhamma in alternation with the Baddhekaratta Sutta to the devas who could not penetrate the profound and detailed teaching of the Abhidhamma on rúpa and arúpa (nåma) that have the three characteristics (of dukkha, impermanence and non-self). We read in the ³Bhaddekaratta Sutta of Lomasakaògiya² that the deva Candana approached the venerable Lomasakaògiya and asked him whether he remembered the exposition and analysis of the Baddhekaratta Sutta. It appeared that both of them could not remember this, but Candana remembered the verses. He related that the Buddha had taught these when he dwelled in the Heaven of the Thirtythree. They are the following verses: The past should not be followed after, the future not desired. What is past is got rid of and the future has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there of a present dhamma, The unmovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it 4 . Swelter at the task this very day. Who knows whether he will die tomorrow? There is no bargaining with the great hosts of Death. Thus abiding ardently, unwearied day and night, He indeed is ³Auspicious² called, described as a sage at peace 5 . The Buddha taught people to develop right understanding of what appears at the present moment, and this is satipatthåna. The Abhidhamma explains in detail all realities of our daily life, and therefore it is very meaningful that he taught in the Heaven of the Thirtythree Abhidhamma in alternation with satipatthåna. During our journey Acharn Sujin reminded us frequently not to follow after the past nor to desire for what has not come yet, but to be aware of what appears now. Seeing, hearing, attachment or aversion fall away immediately, but we keep on thinking of what is past already, or we may wish to be aware of what has not arisen yet. If there is mindfulness of the characteristic of reality that appears now, understanding can grow. 11309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala is a dhamma op 14-02-2002 08:42 schreef Kom Tukovinit op tikmok@y...: > Dear Lucy, > I am very happy to hear about this event. Immediately after > I have read the story, I hear a saying in my head (which A. > Sujin has said more than a few times in the recordings), > that we can see the benefit of hearing and considering > (wisely) the dhamma. > > One the other hand, we should also remind ourself that > kusala is also a dhamma. It is not us, and it is not ours. > It has been conditioned to arise, and it has already fallen > away. Right now there is a dhamma that is rising (maybe > akusala: attachment to the kusala, or ignorance of current > realities), whether or not we know what it truly is is > another question. Further, as long as the wrong view about > self (sakaya-dithi) has not been eradicated completely, > there are still conditions for the flood to sweep us into > the bad rebirths, into the beginningless and endless > samsara. Dear Kom, It seems I can never hear enough that kusala is also a dhamma. It falls away and so how can we hold on to it as my kusala? Thank you for the reminder in this post, and more reminders, maybe from what you heard on the tapes, are most welcome! Nina. 11310 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 10:30am Subject: metta Dear Christine, You and Lucy are very kind, thank you for your encouraging words. I wanted to tell you already for some time that I found the discussions about metta so helpful. Not directing it towards oneself, but, taking oneself just as an example: how does one like to be treated by others, and in the same way one should treat others. And, the Visuddhimagga states, this is for beginners! Now, I did not expect it, but this proved to me such a good reminder not to forget metta. I think, just because it was discussed over and over again and then you just have to remember it. Best wishes, from Nina. 11311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] hardness and concept of it op 13-02-2002 22:30 schreef Lucy op selene@c...: > Hello all > > (be warned, this is the "beginner's corner") > > In observing realities, am I right to think that what one sees generally is > more the khandhas than the individual citta, etc.? It seems to me that what > I take to be "citta" is actually a very complex manifestation of > innumerable cittas - more on the lines of "aggregates" (khandas) than as > single realities. Even isolating rupa from concept of rupa seems almost > impossible to my mind - what I notice as "hardness", etc. is already > elaborated into something quite different from plain hardness - it's more > like "hardness" + sanna + vedana + vinnana, +/- recollection of & > comparison with other experiences of "hardness" and even expectations of > "hardness" becoming softer and warmer...instead of looking at one door, I'm > looking at a whole building plus the surrounding gardens, parks and > streets... Dear Lucy, when you see the whole building there is a reality, it could not appear if there were no citta that thinks. Thus, thinking is then the reality at that moment, not you who thinks. If we try to separate realities or isolate them, well, that is not satipatthana. As A. Sujin often says, satipatthana should arise naturally and just be aware of what appears, we cannot expect to have clear understanding in the beginning, I join you here in this beginner's corner. Jon just now explained it so clearly, that it is impossible to try to isolate one citta. He also recently said that we do not have great doses of patience and want to see results. It is good to be reminded of this. There are namas and rupas, nama cognizes or knows, rupa does not know anything. Hardness does not know that it is touched. You do not need words to experience hardness, it has a characteristic. Of course, there is thinking about it, but are there not in between also moments without thinking? You do not think non-stop. But it will not help to try to catch different moments, there is self again. > L: So, I wonder, does the practice of satipathana lead to discriminating > individual realities? What's the process by which the aggregates > disaggregate and an individual citta or rupa becomes manifest? > Or is this a stupid question? > N: Not at all stupid, it is very good to discuss such points, we can all benefit. We heard many times in India that considering the realities of our life will condition the arising of sati, provided we do not try having it. We do not have to think of satipatthana, it will arise because of its own conditions. Even just intellectual understanding of the fact that life is only one moment of citta that falls away immediately and is succeeded by the next one is helpful. It can prevent us from thinking, I am kusala, I am akusala, I am happy, I am unhappy. Thus, you do not have to sit still doing nothing, waiting for sati. So many moments of life that can be considered. Take for instance kamma and vipaka. We would like to help others, but they are beyond help, we cannot do anything. Then the brahmavihara of upekkha, evenmindedness can be developed by considering that unpleasant vipaka has conditions for its arising, that kamma brings its appropriate result, that nobody can pprevent this. If we really understand this, it will help us not to have aversion. I just listened to tapes about the brahma viharas, divine abidings, that Jaran was so kind to give me. Then there is envy cetasika you like to consider. Its opposite is sympathetic joy. It is easy to have sympathetic joy for our friends Sarah and Jon, having a vacation on the beach. They do so much for us every day, without expecting praise or gain. These are the perfections of dana and metta. They are perfections when you do not wish anything for yourself. Anumodana to them. But there are also people who are less sympathetic to us, is it not more difficult to rejoice when they have something pleasant like praise or honour? Here are just some thoughts, best wishes from Nina. 11312 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:30pm Subject: Fwd: Looking ahead and looking aside : Question: In what sense is my intention to look at the tree through the window a free choice to look at the tree outside the window? Can't one choose / change, as it were, their cetanas? How one have done otherwise when seeing the tree is a vipakacitta? ============================ I give some background info. before discussing Stephens question. I meander a bit so you might need to re-ask the question based on this post. Cetana: usually translated as intention Vipakacitta: vipaka- result; citta - the chief in knowing an object. Thus vipaka citta is a moment conditioned by kamma done in the past (either in this life or past lives). In the Abhidhamma there are 4 types of cittas: Vipaka(result), kiriya , akusala (unwholesome) and kusala (wholesome). In a process of cittas that experiences an object such as visible object only one moment is vipaka, result. The rest are of the other types of citta (not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a flash and then many, many more moments that are not vipaka. Now that very insignificant vipaka citta is certainly conditioned by kamma, that is by kamma done at an earlier time in the same life or in previous lives. However, even that vipaka is not conditioned solely by kamma. The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm' because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on."" So to sum up even vipakacitta is not solely conditioned by kamma. When we look at a tree what happens? Perhaps the tree just happens to be in our line of sight and we have no intention to look at it and don't think about it at all. Nevertheless whether there is thinking about it or not one knows that this is a tree. How is it possible to know something without thinking about it? This is because the processes of mind that occur after the seeing are happening very fast and so concepts are formed up even before they are crystalised into thoughts (by thoughts here I mean words). Thus even animals know who their children are, which food tastes better etc. Or perhaps we turn our head slightly, fix our gaze for a few seconds, remember the name of the tree or realise that we don't know the name of the tree (in my case). Here intention is apparent and I think this is where the importance of Stephen's question will show. In the Satipatthana sutta the Buddha spoke about clear comprehension (Sati and sampajanna): "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing, in sitting, in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension."endquote Notice that "looking straight on and in looking away" is included among the opportunties where sati and sampajanna (comprehension) can arise. What then is meant by sati sampajanna? The samanaphala sutta commentary (translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship). notes that there are 4 types of sampajanna 1)puposefulness, 2)suitabilty, 3)resort, and 4)non-delusion -amoha , panna. Number 3, resort, has two meanings: one as "clearly comprehending the resort for ones almsround(for example)" and the other as comprehending the resort of ones meditation subject. On p116 it says "therefore those practising here with with the aggregates, elements and bases as their meditation subjects should look ahead and look aside by way of their own meditation subject: those practising such meditation subjects as the kasinas should look ahead and look aside keeping their meditation subject in mind." A couple of points here: One - that gocara , resort, has levels of meaning. Two- a distinction made between those who are developing samattha and those who are developing vipassana (the object of vipassana is the agggregates, elements or bases - paramattha dhammas). This should not be taken to mean that those who develop vipassana should be so fixed on the khandas etc. that they exclude any samatha. As when one sees people, for example, there can be moments of metta or karuna. Or if one sees a dead body moments where this is taken as an object for reflection. Likewise one who is developing samatha, if he attains jhana, upon leaving the state of jhana can insight those pleasant moments directly as simply dhammas. The same page says " Clear comprehension of non-delusion here is understanding thus "internally there is no self which looks ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look ahead' arises , the mind -originated air element arise together with the thought, producing intimation....." It carries on giving more and more details about mind processes, all to show that there is no-self, only fleeting conditioned phenomena. This is comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna. I guess this has been a rather detailed email that will turn quite a few people off. I find such details helpful though as it helps me to bring attention to what is really occuring . For example, now I push the keys on the computer. But by considering the words from the commentary I am reminded that in fact there is no self who is doing this; that conditioned by the thought (which was itself conditioned) arose the diffusion of the air element that allowed the hand to push the correct(or incorrect) buttons. And the same when I look at the screen, or look away from the screen. And for that matter just now I looked out of my office window at some trees. Stephen's question helped that experience to be just a fraction more insightful than it usually is. This type of understanding can, of course, be rather superficial, just mere lipservice and thinking, but sometimes it can go to the bone, then words are not needed. On page 88 the commentary says "since this Dhamma is deep in doctrine and deep in teaching, listen carefully. Since it is deep in meaning and deep in penetration, attend to it carefully". best wishes robert 11313 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) (III) Rob Ep Thanks for this and the (many) other posts you have sent recently. Back with a vengeance!! --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > In the realm of mindfulness, there are no expedient techniques, nor > any > > need for them. Any technique simply serves to take one away from the > > present present moment. > > > > I hope this is to the point. > > It is to the point, I just disagree. I don't see any reason why sitting > to > concentrate on the present moment would make the present moment more > obscure, nor > why practicing something in a 'cool' setting will deprive one of doing > it in a > more busy 'hot' setting, but rather the contrary, that it will help, nor > why > training in discernment is any more artificial than reading suttas to > try to > understand the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha never said that one can > only > practice 'in the natural setting', did he? There are 2 separate points here which i perhaps did not sufficiently distinguish in my earlier reply (above). The first is that sitting concentrating on the present moment is something that anyone can do. It may or may not be wholesome but it certainly can not be equated with awareness of a presently arising reality. The second is that *having the idea* that sitting concentrating etc is the way in which awareness is best developed necessarily implies, whether or not consciously recognised or acknowledged, the idea that there is a *better time/place/occasion than this very moment* in which realities ccan be directly experienced. This is what I meant by the reference to expedient techniques taking one away from the present moment. > I would like to know where in the tradition of abhidhamma the idea that > meditation > had a negative influence on understanding arose. It seems the opposite > of how > Buddhist philosophy is generally interpreted. Am I mistaken? I don't believe this represents anything I've said, Rob. I have simply tried to distinguish between *awareness of a presently arising reality* and *(sitting) concentrating on the present moment*. Good to have your input again, Rob. Jon (Bangkok) 11314 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > I still don't understand how our limitations in discerning dictates > against > practice. Whether or not we are able to presently discern the reality > of each > moment from moment to moment, the attempt to do so will lead to greater > ability. > I know that you don't believe this from what you have said, but still > don't > understand your reasoning very well. I think you are saying that- a. The path taught by the Buddha involves seeing clearly each moment-to-moment reality as it arises; and b. The way this seeing clearly is developed is by concentrating on the present moment. I believe that (a) above is not what we are taught as the path. I think what we are told is that our ignorance and wrong view about realities has to be dispelled. This implies *sufficiently* knowing realites so that there is no longer any room for doubt about the matter. As to (b), I can only repeat the comments in my post of a minute ago. Concentrating on the present moment is concentrating with existing misconceptions and preconceptions. Awareness does not arise just because we have sat down to concentrate on things. Jon > Is it really enough to understand that consciousness is a moment to > moment > phenomena? *Any* attempt to apply the suttas to daily life can be > described as a > 'technique', just as meditating may be described as a technique to do > the same, > and it seems to me that some sort of application, however awkward, is > exactly what > is called for. If meditating is something I do, it becomes part of > daily living, > and is therefore at least as eligible for discernment as any other daily > activity. As I said in an earlier post to you-- >> As far as 'specific practices' are concerned, I don't believe there are >> any given by the Buddha, and I include here studying the suttas and >> 'discerning the present moment'. > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ====================== > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > Let me continue my reply to your post (working backwards). > > > > > It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I > > > meditate. It > > > makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering > the > > > phone, > > > jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the > day, > > > that all of > > > these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still > and > > > observing a less busy field of experience. ... > > > Meditation is ... a concentrated period in which one > > > focuses the mind on the moment. > > > > I am sure that many would share your view that awareness of a > presently > > appearing reality means or suggests 'following' the mind as it jumps > from > > one activity to another. Yet I think that is a wholly impossible > task, > > and not really what the Buddha was describing for the development of > the > > path. It's true that we can find in the suttas descriptions of all > the > > different mind-states (and other realities), and how extremely fast > these > > change from one to the other. But only the likes of a Buddha can ever > get > > to see the mind on a purely moment-to-moment basis. > > > > For us, as beginners, it is enough to know that consciousness *is* a > > moment-to-moment phenomenom and hence a constantly changing one, so > that > > we do not assume it to be otherwise. When we read in, say, the > > Satipatthana Sutta about awareness of a presently appearing reality > (e.g. > > seeing or visible object), there is nothing that requires this to be > *only > > a single moment* of that reality. As I understand, there may be many > > moments of awareness of the same object as it arises in an apparently > > continuous stream (since we don't have the discernment to see these > things > > on a moment to moment basis). Initially, it is the characteristic of > > being a nama or a rupa, or of appearing through a particular doorway, > that > > is apparent, rather than its purely momentary nature (not to mention > the > > even more 'advanced' characteristics of impermanence etc.). > > > > What I am trying to say, Rob, is that the idea of awareness as > involving > > or being a function of our focussing on the present moment and > following > > the activity of the mind needs to be put aside if the true nature of > the > > presently appearing reality is to be discerned. > > > > Jon > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > Thanks for your response. I appreciate your clear explanation as > > > always. Let me > > > make a few comments in response to your message. > > > > > > 1/ I think it's correct to say that everyone starts with wrong > view, > > > and that > > > wrong view continues to one extent or another as long as ignorance > > > persists? > > > > > > 2/ Then the question is, what to do to correct wrong view and > foster > > > right view > > > and right practice. > > > > > > 3/ Clearly, reading suttas and understanding the nature of > mindfulness, > > > insight > > > and wisdom is very important, with or without the support and > > > clarification of a > > > qualified teacher, which is better than not having one! > > > > > > 4/ Then the question is, during this period of relative delusion, > but > > > after one > > > has been convinced of the basic truth of the dhamma and wants to > > > progress, what > > > constitutes correct practice? > > > > > > 5/ To hedge my bets, I would say that practicing mindfulness to the > > > extent > > > possible at each moment in daily life is both a most significant > > > practice and a > > > most significant goal. > > > > > > 6/ I also believe that relatively undistracted periods of > meditation is > > > a greatly > > > expedient technique for achieving progress in the qualities that > lead to > > > higher > > > attainments. I will leave aside whether it is necessary or not, and > > > just say that > > > I believe it is expedient. > > > > > > If I had come up with this idea myself, I might doubt it, but there > is > > > no doubt > > > that there is a great tradition in Buddhism that is many centuries > old, > > > promoting > > > meditative practices as a core essential of the Buddhist path. One > may > > > argue the > > > extent to which Buddha promoted meditation as an expedient means in > the > > > Suttas, > > > but there is no doubt that Buddhists in many traditions all over the > > > world > > > practice mindfulness and insight meditation, whether they follow the > > > breath, note > > > the breath, attempt to observe arising experiences, or attempt to > focus > > > on > > > specific objects of mind. > > > > > > It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I > > > meditate. It > > > makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering > the > > > phone, > > > jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the > day, > > > that all of > > > these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still > and > > > observing > > > a less busy field of experience. Is the former a worthy and > necessary > > > practice? > > > Yes. Does meditation help to develop this potentiality? To me the > > > answer is a > > > very big yes. One can argue that I may be fooling myself and really > > > developing a > > > satisfying sense of progress while really increasing ignorance in > some > > > way, but I > > > don't see why that would be the case, any more than it might be the > case > > > if I > > > 'thought' I was becoming more discerning in daily life. If one > > > concentrates on > > > learning something in general, one learns it faster. Meditation is > no > > > different > > > than any other study in that sense, it is a concentrated period in > which > > > one > > > focuses the mind on the moment. > > > > > > I don't think there is anywhere in the suttas where Buddha says that > > > meditation is > > > a negative or delusory practice. So I find it hard to understand > why it > > > seems to > > > be taken as a negative to some extent by yourself and others who > follow > > > the > > > Abhidhamma. Am I wrong that this is the case? It seems that there > is > > > some > > > caution in doing a specific practice that is not included in > studying > > > the suttas > > > and discerning the moment in daily life. Perhaps there is a reason > for > > > this, but > > > I don't quite understand it at present. > > > > > > I look forward to your response. > > > > > > Best, > > > Robert Ep. > > > > > > ================================ > > > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: 11315 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Rob Ep Continuing (with apologies for the jumble at the end of the previous post) > Is it really enough to understand that consciousness is a moment to > moment > phenomena? *Any* attempt to apply the suttas to daily life can be > described as a > 'technique', just as meditating may be described as a technique to do > the same, > and it seems to me that some sort of application, however awkward, is > exactly what > is called for. I pretty much agree with this observation. As I said in an earlier post to you-- >> As far as 'specific practices' are concerned, I don't believe there are >> any given by the Buddha, and I include here studying the suttas and >> 'discerning the present moment'. It's nice to know we can find something to agree on! > If meditating is something I do, it becomes part of > daily living, > and is therefore at least as eligible for discernment as any other daily > activity. No-one is telling anyone they shouldn't meditate. The discussion is about how the Buddha's teaching is to be correctly read/interpreted. Jon 11316 From: egberdina Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 11:16pm Subject: Update Hi all, Just to let you know that I am now officially unemployed, and am very busy setting up my own business. (computer network support) I'll try and duck in for a peek when I can. Something I've been pondering lately. "The appreciation of wholeness comes only through acceptance, for to analyze means to break down or separate out. The attempt to understand totality by breaking it down is clearly the characteristically contradictory approach of the ego to everything". Be good :-) Herman 11317 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Update Herman Thanks for sharing your news. I had noticed your absence. Sorry to hear that your fears about the job have now been realised. I'm sure everyone here joins me in wishing you success in your new business venture. Do drop in amd say hello whenever you have time. --- egberdina wrote: > Hi all, > > Just to let you know that I am now officially unemployed, and am very > busy setting up my own business. (computer network support) > > I'll try and duck in for a peek when I can. > > Something I've been pondering lately. "The appreciation of wholeness > comes only through acceptance, for to analyze means to break down or > separate out. The attempt to understand totality by breaking it down > is clearly the characteristically contradictory approach of the ego > to everything". The goal is to understand reality, not totality. The problem is lack of discernment of reality (not lack of discernment of totality). My two cents. Jon I'm a seeking a Enter city or ZIP Age: to Show only profiles with photos 11318 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > The obstacles to the development of mindfulness and clear > comprehension > > are ignorance and wrong view, as I understand it. If there is a > proper > > grasp of the details of the teaching on mindfulness, there is no > reason it > > should not arise even during times of strong anger or attachment > (although > > not of course at the same precise moment). > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This isn't my experience. Moreover, I don't see the Buddha as > having > put so much emphasis on Right Concentration, defined as attaining the > first 4 > jhanas, and including it as part of the 8-fold path for no reason. > ---------------------------------------------------------- You raise the question of the rationale for the emphasis on Right Concentration and its inclusion in the Noble Eightfold Path. The emphasis I observe is concentration as only 1 of 8 factors that arise together and each perform their repective functions at the moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga citta) or as 1 of 5 factors arising together at moment of mundane path consciousness (vipassana bhavana/insight). At moments of magga citta the concentration factor is said to have its effect with a force corresponding to the (mundane) jhana citta, as described in the 'definition' you refer to. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > I note the distinction you imply between actual mindfulness and a > > 'mindfulness practice'. But is this something mentioned in the > suttas? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I read the Satipatthana Sutta as a program of practice, > mindfulness > practice, the aim of which is the cultivation of insight. > ---------------------------------------------------------- I would be interested to know which part of the sutta you see as referring to a practice preparatory to mindfulness, rather than to the actual arising of mindfulness > > Likewise as regards the idea of the peace of samatha extending beyond > > actual periods of samatha and somehow contributing to the 'mindfulness > > practice'. Is this something you see as being consonant with any > > particular part of the teachings, or is it perhaps based on personal > > experience (yours or others'; just wanting to clarify, and hope you > don't > > mind me asking, Howard)? > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is part of my experience that calm supports mindfulness and > mindfulness supports calm, and the cultivation of calm was a central > part of > the practice taught by the Buddha .. again, and again, and again. > --------------------------------------------------------- The cultivation of calm to the highest levels of jhana was practised before the Buddha's enlightenment. Also prevalent were the understanding of kamma/vipaka (one of the 'definitions' of Right View) and the kind of volitinal effort you consider to be Right Effort as 'defined'. It seems a necessary implication of this view of things that the eightfold path factors were being developed even *before* the Buddha's enlightenment; at the very least, those who had already attained jhana would have been on the verge of enlightenment. Is this a fair comment on what you have said, Howard? Jon 11319 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Howard > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > > > There is much in the following that I agree with, for example > the > > > > > > relevance of motivation and underlying sense urgency for effective > > > volition. > > > Where we differ is, in part, a matter of emphasis. I detect a flavor > of > > > "randomness" in your analysis, a randomness tending towards the > nihilist > > > pole > > > of wrong view, whereas my tendency is towards the opposite > > > substantialist > > > pole of wrong view. But most precisely, where we differ is on the > issue > > > of > > > whether the Buddha provided a training program (my position) or only > a > > > statement of what conditions foster what results (your apparent > > > position). > > > > I seem to recall that 'trainer of gods and men' is one of the > attributes > > of a Buddha, so I hesitate to give my unqualified agreement to your > > characterisation of our difference! > > > > Let me just say that I'm not aware of any 'program' laid down by the > > Buddha for attaining enlightenment. > > > > I do, however, see the teachings as making known, and encouraging the > > development of, the factors that lead to enlightenment. > > > > Jon > > Jon, I'm just picking on you, but how is encouraging the development of > a set of > specific factors that lead to a given result, different than 'laying > down a > program'? I think it is more a question of what one's philosophy is. No problem, Rob. I'm going to pass this one to Howard, since the distinction was his in the first place (see above) ;-) ;-). > As I read it, your point of view goes something like this [I am standing > up so you > can knock me down]: > > 1/ there is no self. > 2/ therefore there is no one that has volition. > 3/ therefore there is no control. > 4/ therefore there can be no program that 'one' engages in to get a > result. > 5/ therefore taking on mundane efforts like meditating or trying to be > mindful in > order to progress merely enforces the illusion that there is a > volitional ego. > 6/ therefore the attempt to make progress makes progress more > difficult. > 7/ therefore there is only one correct path, and that is to do whatever > you are > already doing, but see clearly to the extent possible, and without > creating a > separate effort, to discern the true characteristic of the moment The above is mostly correct as a statement of my understanding of what is found in the teachings (rather than being a view reached by means of steps 1-7 or the like) > My only problem with this, if it is correct, is that even the attempt to > read the > suttas and apply one's understanding to the 'naturally occurring moment > in daily > living' is as much a volitional effort as sitting down to meditate. I > don't think > there's any way to escape the fact that when we set upon the path to try > to > transcend the illusion of the self and discern the true nature of the > moment, we > are using the illusion of the volitional self in order to get rid of the > illusion > of the volitional self. This paradox, I believe, should be utilized, > rather than > danced away from. The illusion of passivity when in fact one is trying > as hard as > possible to find the way to enlightenment seems to me to add another > layer of > illusion on top of the one we already have. Even if we 'try hard' there > is still > actually no volitional self. That doesn't necessarily mean that there > is no > 'volition'. The fact of what we call volitional effort is not in dispute, Rob. The equating of right effort with that volitional effort is what I have taken issue with. Jon 11320 From: Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Update Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/16/02 2:16:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@d... writes: > Just to let you know that I am now officially unemployed, and am very > busy setting up my own business. (computer network support) > ============================= I hope it goes wonderfully for you! All the best, and with metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11321 From: Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Hi, Jon - I'll try to briefly answer the heart of what I believe you are asking me in the following. I agree that the cultivation of calm, ALONE, could be practiced for lifetime after lifetime without liberation resulting. It is, as you say, only a part of the practice, and far from sufficient. But the Buddha incorporated into his practice many already extant practices when he deemed them important. (In fact, in at least one sutta he said something to the effect that whatever is conducive to liberation is part of his teaching.) In any case, as an example, in the Majjhima Nikaya, the the number of times that mastering the first four jhanas is urged by the Buddha probably exceeds any other individual teaching. I don't understand why there is resistance to this part of the teaching by you and some others. As far as my characterization of the Satipatthana Sutta as a "training manual" rather than as a purely descriptive work, all I can say is that this is totally obvious to me. However, I understand that the opposite is totally obvious to you! So we will just have to "agree to disagree" on this one. Another, more general issue, it seems, on which we shall have to "agree to disagree" is that of applying effort to engage in specific practices in order to cultivate various factors. You seem to see this as either unimportant or impossible. I see the not making of an effort to engage in specific cultivational practices as leaving one in the position of any non-practitioner, and, by default, tossed about on the waves of desire and aversion - led by craving and ignorance, a helpless victim of past kamma and accumulations. I do understand that you do not see it that way. With metta, Howard (Your post follows without further comment.) In a message dated 2/16/02 6:46:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > The obstacles to the development of mindfulness and clear > > comprehension > > > are ignorance and wrong view, as I understand it. If there is a > > proper > > > grasp of the details of the teaching on mindfulness, there is no > > reason it > > > should not arise even during times of strong anger or attachment > > (although > > > not of course at the same precise moment). > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > This isn't my experience. Moreover, I don't see the Buddha as > > having > > put so much emphasis on Right Concentration, defined as attaining the > > first 4 > > jhanas, and including it as part of the 8-fold path for no reason. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > You raise the question of the rationale for the emphasis on Right > Concentration and its inclusion in the Noble Eightfold Path. > > The emphasis I observe is concentration as only 1 of 8 factors that arise > together and each perform their repective functions at the moment of > supramundane path consciousness (magga citta) or as 1 of 5 factors arising > together at moment of mundane path consciousness (vipassana > bhavana/insight). > > At moments of magga citta the concentration factor is said to have its > effect with a force corresponding to the (mundane) jhana citta, as > described in the 'definition' you refer to. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I note the distinction you imply between actual mindfulness and a > > > 'mindfulness practice'. But is this something mentioned in the > > suttas? > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > I read the Satipatthana Sutta as a program of practice, > > mindfulness > > practice, the aim of which is the cultivation of insight. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > I would be interested to know which part of the sutta you see as referring > to a practice preparatory to mindfulness, rather than to the actual > arising of mindfulness > > > > Likewise as regards the idea of the peace of samatha extending beyond > > > actual periods of samatha and somehow contributing to the 'mindfulness > > > practice'. Is this something you see as being consonant with any > > > particular part of the teachings, or is it perhaps based on personal > > > experience (yours or others'; just wanting to clarify, and hope you > > don't > > > mind me asking, Howard)? > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > It is part of my experience that calm supports mindfulness and > > mindfulness supports calm, and the cultivation of calm was a central > > part of > > the practice taught by the Buddha .. again, and again, and again. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > The cultivation of calm to the highest levels of jhana was practised > before the Buddha's enlightenment. Also prevalent were the understanding > of kamma/vipaka (one of the 'definitions' of Right View) and the kind of > volitinal effort you consider to be Right Effort as 'defined'. > > It seems a necessary implication of this view of things that the eightfold > path factors were being developed even *before* the Buddha's > enlightenment; at the very least, those who had already attained jhana > would have been on the verge of enlightenment. > > Is this a fair comment on what you have said, Howard? > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11322 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:02am Subject: India, Ch 2, no. 2 India, Ch 2, no. 2 The Buddha taught that what we take for a person are in reality mental phenomena, nåma, and physical phenomena, rúpa. Seeing or hearing are nåmas, they experience something, they experience an object. Seeing experiences what is visible, colour or visible object. Hearing is quite different from seeing, it experiences sound. Visible object is rúpa, a physical phenomenon that does not experience anything. Visible object impinges on the eyesense that is also rúpa. Eyesense does not experience anything but it is a condition for seeing. Both visible object and eyesense are conditions for seeing. In the same way sound and earsense are conditions for hearing, odour and smellingsense for smelling, flavour and tastingsense for tasting, tangible object and bodysense for body-consciousness. The five senses are rúpas that are called the doorways through which the relevant sense objects, that are rúpas, are experienced. Through the mind-door all kinds of nåma and rúpa can be experienced. We are inclined to cling to a concept of self who is seeing, hearing or thinking, but in reality there are different moments of consciousness, cittas, that experience one object at a time and that do not last. When hearing arises there cannot be seeing at the same time. We cling to an idea of our body that belongs to us, but in reality the body consists of different kinds of physical phenomena, rúpas, that arise and fall away. When we were in the Jeta Grove we saw gardeners at work who were gathering grass and sticks, just as in the Buddha¹s time. Later on Acharn Sujin reminded us of the Sutta in the ³Kindred Sayings² about grass and sticks that are gathered and then burnt. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings²(IV, Salåyatana vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch 5, §101, Not yours) that the Buddha said: ŒWhat is not of you, monks, put it away. Putting it away will be for your profit and welfare. And what, monks, is not of you? The eye, monks, is not of you. Put it away. Putting it away will be for your profit and welfare. Objects are not of you... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... that pleasant or unpleasant or indifferent feeling which arises owing to eye-contact... Tongue is not yours...mind, mental objects, etc. are not yours. Put them away. Putting them away will be for your profit and welfare. Just as if, monks, a man should gather, burn or do what he likes with all the grass, all the sticks, branches and stalks in this Jeta Grove, pray, would he say ³This man is gathering, is burning us, doing what he pleases with us²? ¹ ŒSurely not, lord.¹ ŒWhy not?¹ ŒBecause, lord, this is not our self, nor of the nature of self.¹ ŒEven so, monks, the eye is not of you. Put it away. Putting it away will be for your profit and welfare. Objects and the rest are not of you. Put them away. Putting them away will be for your profit and welfare.¹ Grass and sticks are physical phenomena, they are rúpas outside that are not part of the body, they do not belong to anyone. However, also the rúpas of the body do not belong to us, they arise because of the appropriate conditions and then they fall away. When right understanding is developed all objects can be seen as non-self, anattå, and there can be detachment from the concept of self. 11323 From: Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 2/16/02 11:45:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Jon - > > I'll try to briefly answer the heart of what I believe you are > asking > me in the following. I agree that the cultivation of calm, ALONE, could be > practiced for lifetime after lifetime without liberation resulting. It is, > as > you say, only a part of the practice, and far from sufficient. But the > Buddha > incorporated into his practice many already extant practices when he deemed > > them important. (In fact, in at least one sutta he said something to the > effect that whatever is conducive to liberation is part of his teaching.) > In > any case, as an example, in the Majjhima Nikaya, the the number of times > that > mastering the first four jhanas is urged by the Buddha probably exceeds any > > other individual teaching. I don't understand why there is resistance to > this > part of the teaching by you and some others. > As far as my characterization of the Satipatthana Sutta as a > "training > manual" rather than as a purely descriptive work, all I can say is that > this > is totally obvious to me. However, I understand that the opposite is > totally > obvious to you! So we will just have to "agree to disagree" on this one. > Another, more general issue, it seems, on which we shall have to "agree to > disagree" is that of applying effort to engage in specific practices in > order > to cultivate various factors. You seem to see this as either unimportant or > > impossible. I see the not making of an effort to engage in specific > cultivational practices as leaving one in the position of any > non-practitioner, and, by default, tossed about on the waves of desire and > aversion - led by craving and ignorance, a helpless victim of past kamma > and > accumulations. I do understand that you do not see it that way. ==================================== To say a drop more, I've pasted below part of the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (from the Digha Nikaya) to which I add a comment or two: "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view. "And what is right resolve? Aspiring to renunciation, to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: This is called right resolve. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech. "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from sexual intercourse. This is called right action. "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The preceding could be taken either descriptively or prescriptively, although 'abstaining' usually suggests intentional action. ----------------------------------------------------------- "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The expressions 'generates desire', 'endeavors', 'arouses, upholds & exerts his intent' strike me as unambigiously indicating intentional effort. ------------------------------------------------------------- "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness. "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The definition here of what constitutes "right concentration" strikes me as rather clear and unambiguous. Moreover, it constitutes a relatively large part of the sutta. -------------------------------------------------------------------- "This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress. ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11324 From: egberdina Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 2:45pm Subject: Re: Update Dear Jon, Thank you for your kind words. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: H: > > Something I've been pondering lately. "The appreciation of wholeness > > comes only through acceptance, for to analyze means to break down or > > separate out. The attempt to understand totality by breaking it down > > is clearly the characteristically contradictory approach of the ego > > to everything". J: > The goal is to understand reality, not totality. The problem is lack of > discernment of reality (not lack of discernment of totality). > > My two cents. If I have understood him correctly, then Robert K has recently been emphasising the reality that nothing has a single cause. There is multiplicity of causes and effects at all times. A single step of the paticcasma..... (well you know what I mean) in isolation is meaningless. Any one of the four noble truths in isolation is useless. One division of the noble eightfold path leads nowhere. Still, I accept what you are saying to be so. And I believe totality to be equivalent to reality. An understanding of components is by necessity conceptual and atta in nature. (IMHO) All the best Herman 11325 From: Lucy Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a week Dear All Thanks very much Nina, Larry, Kom, Sarah, Jon for your comments. Much to think about there - which I'll do this week while away from home and probably unable to log on the internet much. Have a wonderful week! Lucy 11326 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 1:06am Subject: Fwd: paticcasamuppada iv (the six doors, volitional effort) Dear group, A little more on Dependent Origination The Samyutta nikaya ii ch xii, 1 ?EAnd what, bhikkhus is dependent origination? With ignorance (avijja) as condition, volitional formations(sankharas) come to be, with volitional formations as condition, consciousness(vinnana); with consciousness as condition, mentality and materiality (nama and rupa); with mentality and materiality as condition the six sense bases (salayatana); with the six sense bases as condition contact (phassa), with contact as condition, feeling (vedana); with feeling as condition, craving (tanha); with craving as condition, grasping (upadana); with clinging as condition, becoming (bhava); with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus is called dependent origination." This pithy explanation by the Buddha describes what life really is. These are elements that make up our?Elife. They are occurring now but usually we are ignorant (avijja -the first link) of the factors. And because of this ignorance comes the view that "I"?Eexist, that feeling is mine or eye is mine, or that "I"?Eam seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking. Knowing about Paticcasamuppada we might decide to do something about it, try to stop craving. However, this decision and trying comes under the link of sankhara (volitional formations). It may reinforce or hide a subtle perception of self and control. The Samyutta nikaya nidanavagga ii ch xii, 40 Volition "Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness?Ethen consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is inclination;?Esuch is the origin of this whole mass of suffering." ?E The first step should be comprehension of the factors of the wheel. One of the links is Salayatana?E the six sense bases. The Samyutta nikaya ii ch xii, 2 "And what bhikkhu are the six sense bases? There are these six bases: eye base, ear base, nose base, tongue base, body base, mind base" Conditioned by these bases there is contact and because of contact feeling: "there are six classes of feeling: feeling born of eye- contact, feeling born of ear contact, feeling born of nose contact, feeling born of tongue contact, feeling born of body contact, feeling born of mind contact." ibid. And conditioned by the six classes of feeling tanha(craving) arises. Majjhima Nikaya 148 Chachakka Sutta The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known. The six external media should be known. The six classes of consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six classes of craving should be known." Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I think this is important, craving is part of the wheel. Usually we misperceive it as "my" craving. But craving, as much as other dhammas, can be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true characteristic can be seen. (Craving, the English translation of tanha, may make us think of a very strong desire, but tanha includes even very minute aspects of unwholesome desire) Later the sutta says: "'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus it was said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving." and it repeats for the other senses of ear, nose, tongue, body, mind. "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self.' So the eye is not-self. ...... If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self. " What then should we do and what is right effort: Ogha-tarana Sutta Crossing the Flood This is the very first sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya A deva asks the Buddha how he crossed the flood (the four floods are sensuality, becoming, views, ignorance). "Sir, how did you cross the flood? Friend, by not remaining still, and by not putting forth strenuous effort, I crossed the flood." But Sir, in what way did you cross the flood, neither remaining still, nor putting forth strenuous effort. Friend, if I remained still. I sank; If I put forth strenuous effort, I was swept away Thus, by neither remaining still nor putting forth strenuous effort, I crossed the flood." 11327 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact Rob --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Thanks, Jon. > I understand what you're saying to some extent. I would ask you though, > do you > really consider meditation a neutral activity like any other? It seems > like you > are against taking up meditation practice. If I am wrong, I just want > to get > clear that this is really not the case. If it is not the case, then I > would think > you would say 'well meditate it if you want to, but don't be fooled into > thinking > that this in itself will guarantee the development of the path factors > in you'. > Is that the case? It's not a question of being 'for' or 'against' anything, but of trying to understand the message of the Buddha. > It also seems from what you say below, that you consider the Abhidhamma > indispensible for correct application of the teachings. Do you believe > that those > who do not study the Abhidhamma cannot reach enlightenment, even if they > are > following the Buddha's teachings through the suttas? There were plenty of people in the Buddha's time who attained enlightenment on hearing the suttas only. On the other hand, an 'understanding' of the suttas that is not consistent with what is in the abhidhamma is not going to be a correct understanding. > I personally do not believe there is one and only one correct path and > that it > must be followed in one specified way or enlightenment cannot be gained. > I > personally feel that the Buddha's teachings are clearly developed in > very > different ways in the Tibetan Tradition, in Zen, and most certainly in > the > Theravadin tradition, which itself has quite a lot of variety in terms > of > emphasis. My evidence for that is that there are very strong > pronouncements of > the fruits of enlightenment in all of these traditions over hundreds of > years. > But of course, one must have 'faith' or some other basis for feeling > that these > pronouncements are true. > > Do you believe that the Buddha indicated that the Abhidhamma is the only > path that > leads to enlightenment, and that the 'Masters' of other traditions are > deluded? I do not regard the abhidhamma as a 'path'. I see it as an aid to coming to an understanding of the path that is taught in the suttas. I don't know enough about the teachings of other traditions to comment, but with respect Rob, I don't think the pronouncements you mention should carry any weight in coming to a conclusion (if one felt the need to do so). Jon 11328 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 7:29am Subject: India Ch 2, no 3 India Ch 2, no 3. The Buddha taught about realities, dhammas, that appear one at a time through the five senses and through the mind-door. He taught about mental phenomena, nåma, and physical phenomena, rúpa. Consciousness or citta is nåma. There is one citta at a time and it cognizes an object, be it visible object, sound or one of the other sense objects, or a mental object that can be experienced through the mind-door. There is one citta at a time but it is accompanied by several mental factors, cetasikas, that each perform their own function while they assist citta in cognizing an object. Feeling and remembrance, for example, are cetasikas accompanying citta. Thus, what we take for a person is in reality citta and cetasika, which are both nåma, and rúpa. Citta, cetasika and rúpa do not last, they arise and fall away. If one does not learn about the Buddha¹s teaching and develop more understanding of nåma and rúpa, the world seems to be full of people and things which last. We take fleeting realities for things that exist, such as a person, a table, a cup or a chair. Citta, cetasika and rúpa are real in the ultimate or absolute sense, they are different from conventional truth or concepts (paññattis). What is true in the ultimate sense is called in Påli: paramattha dhamma 6 . We can also refer to paramattha dhammas as dhammas, realities. When we speak about the Buddha¹s teachings we refer to it as the Dhamma, but the word dhamma has several meanings. Dhamma can mean that which has its own characteristic and is devoid of self. In that sense it is the same as dhåtu, element. Nåma and rúpa are only elements, devoid of self. Paramattha dhammas have each their own characteristic which is unalterable. Seeing has its own characteristic that cannot be changed, no matter how we name it. We can call it by another name, but seeing is always seeing, its characteristic cannot be changed. Seeing experiences what is visible, colour or visible object. Visible object has its own characteristic and when it appears it can be directly experienced without having to name it. Anger is a type of nåma that has its own characteristic which cannot be changed. Anger is always anger, no matter how we name it. Hardness is a kind of rúpa that can be directly experienced through the bodysense, no matter how we name it. When we touch a cup or a chair we know their different meanings in conventional sense: we drink from a cup and we sit on a chair. However, when we touch them hardness may appear. We can verify that hardness is only an element, a kind of rúpa that has the characteristic of hardness, to be experienced through the bodysense, no matter it is hardness of a cup, a chair or a hand. We can directly experience it without thinking of it, without naming it. It is important to learn the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts. Right understanding developed through satipatthåna has as object paramattha dhammas, not concepts. Concepts are not real in the ultimate or fundamental sense, they are objects of thinking. When we see people walking, we cling immediately to shape and form, to a conglomeration of things, to a concept of a whole. In reality seeing sees just visible object, no people. Thinking thinks of the concept of people who are walking; thinking is a paramattha dhamma, it is nåma, but the concept it thinks of is not a paramattha dhamma. Thinking is conditioned by seeing. Acharn Sujin asked us: ³Can there be people without visible object?² 11329 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 7:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact Hello all, May this discourse find everyone well. Regards, Victor Samyutta Nikaya XXIII.2 Satta Sutta A Being Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Translator's note: A number of discourses (among them, SN XXXV.191; AN VI.63) make the point that the mind is fettered, not by things like the five aggregates or the objects of the six senses, but by the act of passion & delight for them. There are two ways to try to cut through this fetter. One is to focus on the drawbacks of passion & delight in & of themselves, seeing clearly the stress & suffering they engender in the mind. The other is to analyze the objects of passion & delight in such a way that they no longer seem worthy of interest. This second approach is the one recommended in this discourse: when the Buddha talks of "smashing, scattering, & demolishing form (etc.) and making it unfit for play," he is referring to the practice of analyzing form minutely into its component parts until it no longer seems a fit object for passion & delight. When all five aggregates can be treated in this way, the mind is left with no conditioned object to serve as a focal point for its passion, and so is released -- at the very least -- to the stage of Awakening called non-return. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?" "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up (satta) there, tied up (visatta) there, one is said to be 'a being (satta).' "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications... "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.' "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles (lit: dirt houses): as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play. "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness -- for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Wed 6 February 2002 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn23-002.html 11330 From: Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 3:37am Subject: The Coming Together of Conditions Hi all - A brief question: It is said that no condition arises from a single condition, but from the coming together of conditions. A technical question would then be "What is it that constitutes the 'coming together' of conditions?" From the Abhidhammic perspective, at any point there is the discernment of a single object together with a variety of accompanying functions, all associated with that same object. Does this mean, then, that from the Abhidhammic perspective, of the conditions which come together, only one act of discernment of an object is included, with the other conditions being the cetasikas? Or, is it multiple mindstates, involving the discernment of several objects, which are the conditions that "come together", resulting in the arising of a new condition? This latter proposition seems to me to be more in step with the Dhamma as a whole. In which case, what restrictions on mindstates, what interrelationships among them in time, proximity, and content, are required to consider that they "come together". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11331 From: Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 5:35pm Subject: how to study? Anyone have any guidelines on how to study abhidhamma? I'm reading The Survey of Paramattha Dhammas and plan to read Abhidhammattha Sangaha next but what then? I have no idea how to approach the books and commentaries of abhidhamma. Also I don't know if my brain is capable of learning another language; is that really necessary? thanks, Larry 11332 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact --- Thanks Victor, a favorite sutta! robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Victor Yu" wrote: > Hello all, > > May this discourse find everyone well. > > Regards, > Victor > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXIII.2 > Satta Sutta > A Being > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > ---- > Translator's note: A number of discourses (among them, SN XXXV.191; AN > VI.63) make the point that the mind is fettered, not by things like the five > aggregates or the objects of the six senses, but by the act of passion & > delight for them. There are two ways to try to cut through this fetter. One > is to focus on the drawbacks of passion & delight in & of themselves, seeing > clearly the stress & suffering they engender in the mind. The other is to > analyze the objects of passion & delight in such a way that they no longer > seem worthy of interest. This second approach is the one recommended in this > discourse: when the Buddha talks of "smashing, scattering, & demolishing > form (etc.) and making it unfit for play," he is referring to the practice > of analyzing form minutely into its component parts until it no longer seems > a fit object for passion & delight. When all five aggregates can be treated > in this way, the mind is left with no conditioned object to serve as a focal > point for its passion, and so is released -- at the very least -- to the > stage of Awakening called non-return. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > ---- > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi > at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the > Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he > was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' > it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?" > "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is > caught up (satta) there, tied up (visatta) there, one is said to be 'a being > (satta).' > > "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... > fabrications... > > "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one > is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.' > > "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles (lit: dirt > houses): as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, > fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have > fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of > them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & > craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, > demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play. > > "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and > make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form. > > "You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. > Practice for the ending of craving for feeling. > > "You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for > play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception. > > "You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for > play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications. > > "You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for > play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness -- for the ending > of craving, Radha, is Unbinding." > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > ---- > Revised: Wed 6 February 2002 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn23-002.html 11333 From: Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sharing food Dear Nina, <> My aunt asked to me to say thank you to you. <> Sure, I always do not mind sharing but I have to inform you upfront that my appetite can be a little weird. Well, as I mentioned, I pretty much read sutta or abhidhamma and then mark questions to ask her. I ask her all kinds of stuffs, for example there are 2 sutta in silakhandhavagga, dighanikaya which have names which have no direct connection with the persons in the sutta, one is brahmachala. I asked her why the sutta got this name, and what does it mean. She looked up atthakatha. It says that this sutta has many synonyms and brahma means the sappa~n~nuta~n~nana of the Buddha and chala means net, so it refers to the limitless net of the knowledge of the Bhuddha. I do not have the atthkatha, so my aunt helps me looking it up and if she cannot answer it, she then ask Aj.Supee or Aj.Sujin for me. I also ask her a lot about vocabulary in Vibhanga, It's kind of funny to find that the English version of Vibhanga is easier to read that the Thai version. Every term was translated in Eng. Version, in Thai version, there are a lot of Pali terms and definitions. <> I am reading your Dhamma in Cambodia. It's a great food as well. In Ch.III, you mentioned the Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. From what I have read the samma-padhana, 4 right efforts, consists of 1) the avoidance of akusala states as yet unarisen 2) the overcoming of akusala states already arisen 3) the development of kusala states as yet unarisen, and 4)the maintaining of kusala states already arisen. There may be some discussion on this before, but I am curious what it really means by 2) the overcoming of akusala states already arisen. Akusala which has already arisen and then completely fallen away, what to overcome?? So what does it mean by overcome sth which has already arisen and gone? What has been done, is done. If it means for future akusala, then it will have the meaning as 1). Let me ask you another question from Silakhandhavagga, almost all 13 sutta say about chulasila, machimasila, mahasila, indriyasavara(which is all about ayatana), satisampajanna, santosa, nivarana, 4 rupajhana and 8 vijja(6 abhinna, lokiya-vipassana~n~nana (about knowing rupa and nama dhamma) and then lokuttara ~n~nana). I think this whole vagga is pretty explicit about developing satipatthana/pannna in daily life. One sutta also mentions that sila and panna cannot be separated, where there is panna, there is sila, and vice versa. I am a little curious why only the rupajhana is mentioned in the suttas, not including the arupajhana? Appreciate, Num 11334 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Rob --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > Your explanation was helpful. > > As wrong as it may be, the way I'm conceiving it at the moment is that > the rupa is > the endpoint of the nama, where it apprehends what seems to be the > object. It is > the object pole of the citta whose object is the rupa. > > Okay, I'm out of chalk. To intellectualise too much about this may be to miss the point somewhat. The classification into namas and rupas is one that can be tested and investigated by one's own experience. What this classification says is that the dhamma that appears at this very moment is either a dhamma that experiences an object or a dhamma that does not experience an object, and that the 2 are quite different in nature. You might like to consider whether this is in accordance with your present experience or not, Rob. Jon 11335 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] how to study? Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Anyone have any guidelines on how to study abhidhamma? I'm reading The > Survey of Paramattha Dhammas and plan to read Abhidhammattha Sangaha > next but what then? I have no idea how to approach the books and > commentaries of abhidhamma. Also I don't know if my brain is capable of > learning another language; is that really necessary? I admire your commitment. Both texts are well worth spending time on. However, whether one reads them through or dips into them for reference on particular topics is a personal thing. I suppose I my advice would be, take it bit by bit! Jon 11336 From: frank kuan Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello all, > > May this discourse find everyone well. > > Regards, > Victor I didn't realize discourses went around hoping people are well, but now I am obligated to reply, "I am well, Discourse. How are you?" :-) -fk 11337 From: Victor Yu Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact That is funny. :-) Anyway, I am glad that you are well. Victor > --- Victor Yu wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > May this discourse find everyone well. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > I didn't realize discourses went around hoping > people are well, but now I am obligated to reply, "I > am well, Discourse. How are you?" > > :-) > > -fk 11338 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 10:05am Subject: India ch 2, no 4 India, Ch 2, no 4 When we are reading we are immediately absorbed in the story we read and we have different feelings about it, we feel happy or sad. At such moments we live in the world of concepts and ideas that are real merely in conventional sense. When we are reading, different cittas experience different objects. The citta that sees experiences only colour or visible object which impinges on the eyesense. Other types of cittas think of the meaning of the letters and of the whole story. Acharn Sujin reminded us that in real life we are also as it were ³reading². We are looking at lines and shapes and we define these as this or that person. We should not try to avoid thinking of concepts of people and things, but we can learn the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts. When the object citta experiences is not a paramattha dhamma it is a concept. The Buddha spoke time and again of all the objets appearing one at a time through the six doors so that people would understand what paramattha dhammas are. Through mindfulness of paramattha dhammas as they appear one at a time, understanding of their nature of anattå can be developed. Acharn Sujin often reminded us that everything is dhamma. It is true that dhammas appear all the time: seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking. Usually we are absorbed in our thoughts about the conventional world, we do not realize that there is dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that when we learn that everything is dhamma, we should not leave it at that, but that we should develop understanding until we know through our own experience that everything is dhamma. If there never is awareness of what appears through the eyes at this moment, realities cannot appear as just dhammas. Our life can change: first we were clinging to a self who sees or hears, but now we can learn that there are only different dhammas each with their own characteristic. Dhammas are ephemeral, many conditions must coincide for one moment of seeing. We take seeing for granted and we think that it lasts, that we can control it. We see and then we remember what it is, but it is no longer there. How could we direct or control a reality that has fallen away already? Nåma and rúpa do not belong to anybody, they are beyond control, non-self. We cannot select the dhammas that appear now, seeing or hearing have arisen already. We have to see, we have to hear, we have to be born again and again so that we see, hear and experience objects through the six doors. We cannot select what reality arises at a particular moment, but understanding of them can be gradually developed. The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma to the devas in the Heaven of the Thirtythree, and he also taught vipassanå when he expounded the Discourse on ³One Single Excellent Night². He used conventional expressions in the sutta, when he said that one should not cling to the past nor desire for the future, but attend to the present moment. We read in the Commentary to the ³Discourse on no Blemishes² (Middle Length Sayings I, no 5): There is a twofold teaching of the Buddha, the Blessed One: the teaching in the conventional way and the teaching by way of ultimate realities. There is a human, a being, a woman, a man, a man of the warrior caste, a brahman, a god, and Måra. Such is the teaching in the conventional way. Impermanence, dukkha, anattå, the aggregates, the elements, the sensefields, satipatthåna. Such is the teaching by way of ultimate realities. Here the Blessed One taught to those in the conventional way who by means of it, after having heard the teaching, penetrated the meaning and abandoned ignorance, and were skilled to attain distinction. But he taught by way of ultimate realities to those who, after having heard the teaching, penetrated the meaning and abandoned ignorance, and were skilled to attain distinction. Also when the Buddha taught by way of conventional terms he explained what is dhamma: namely, what appears right now. ****** Footnotes 1. This miracle consisted in the appearance of flames from the upper part of the body and streams of water from the lower part, and then alternatively, there were streams of water from the upper part of the body and flames from the lower part. Moreoever, flames of fire and streams of water also proceeded each in alternation from the right side of the body and from the left side. The Twin Miracle and his ascent to the Heaven of the Thirtythree took place in the seventh year after his enlightenment. 2. In the Middle Length Sayings III there is a series of four suttas (no. 131-135) the first one of which is the Bhaddekarattasutta. There are different translations of the title. The P.T.S. translates it as ³Discourse on the Auspicious², whereas Ven. Bodhi translates it as ³One Single Excellent Night². The following suttas in this series of four are the Bhaddekarattasutta of Ånanda, of Mahåkaccåna and of Lomasakaògiya. 3. See ³Designation of Human Types², Ch IV, § 5. 4. This is from the translation of Ven. Nånananda, Wheel 188, Kandy. The P.T.S. translation has: knowing that it is immovable, unshakable. 5. The Thai translation has: he is called someone who has only one night of development. Night in Påli stands for day and night. Someone who knows that he may only have one day and night has a sense of urgency to develop insight. 6. Parama means highest. Paramattha dhamma is what is real in the highest, the ultimate sense, what is fundamentally true. ******* 11339 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] llumination of rocks, namas and rupas-Sarah: uh-oh, really long!!! Dear Jon, Yes, I can make that distinction. If I look at the computer, the computer as it appears at the moment [not calling it a computer but just what I see] is a rupa. It clearly is 'just there', isn't taking 'another object' as its own. If I think about what it is, then that computer is the object of that thought. That thought has computer as its object. That thought is a nama. In a very colloquial, inaccurate sense, a nama is a thought, and a rupa is an object. Thanks, Robert Ep. ======= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Your explanation was helpful. > > > > As wrong as it may be, the way I'm conceiving it at the moment is that > > the rupa is > > the endpoint of the nama, where it apprehends what seems to be the > > object. It is > > the object pole of the citta whose object is the rupa. > > > > Okay, I'm out of chalk. > > To intellectualise too much about this may be to miss the point somewhat. > > The classification into namas and rupas is one that can be tested and > investigated by one's own experience. > > What this classification says is that the dhamma that appears at this very > moment is either a dhamma that experiences an object or a dhamma that does > not experience an object, and that the 2 are quite different in nature. > > You might like to consider whether this is in accordance with your present > experience or not, Rob. > > Jon > > > > > 11340 From: onco111 Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:09pm Subject: Dear Sarah ("kusala" revisited) [I recently wrote a note to Sarah, and she asked me to post excerpts here so we could consider some of the points together with the whole crew. The relevant parts follow.] Dear Sarah, ...I am just so surprised to see you glossing "kusala" as "skillful"! Last winter, I explicitly used "skillful" when the conversation would steer uncomfortably close to anatta -- something that people are more loathe to accept than even the moral/immoral/amoral triplet! I confess my subversive intent in using "skillful" back then. I thought (and probably wrote) things like: "These guys talk about anatta too much and over-emphasize Right View instead of balancing it with talk about the other parts of the path, like Right Effort." Of course, much of the time I was thinking about conventional effort (despite the fact that I thought I was talking about Right Effort). I was delighted when I stumbled onto the "skillful" gloss for "kusala" because I could use it in my quest to steer the conversation back to the more comfortable realm of mistaking conventional effort for Right Effort and of making it easier to stay firmly rooted in sakaya-ditthi [personality view]. Now Sarah is doing the same thing (albeit, unintentionally). How so? First, a quick question: How should I practice so that I can get good at (skillful) making desirable dhammas arise? Yeah, yeah, I know. You mean to apply "skillful" just to the dhammas themselves... But how would that work? When a citta rooted in alobha, adosa, amoha arises, is it "skillful"? I.e., does it have or demonstrate skill? The dictionary defines skill as "the ability to do something well, arising from talent, training, or practice." I'm curious. What talent, training, or practice has the citta engaged in to give it that ability to do what it does well? Obviously, it doesn't do any such thing; it is there for just a brief moment before passing away. It would be nice to just remove the "arising from talent, training, or practice" clause from the definition. The desire to do so might be there, but it's not such an easy thing to do! The definition of "skill" was skillfully constructed with the "arising from..." clause included precisely because that's what naturally comes to mind when people think of the word. To ignore it or try to "remove" the clause is to shut one's eyes to the strong tendency of people to associate training and practice with the word "skillful," and imagine the skillful being rather than the kusala dhamma. It is because of this tendency that the word "skillful" is (only?) applied to beings and their works (and is precisely why I used to use it to keep the conversation on dsg comfortable for sakayaditti). For example, skillful teachers, dancers, and liars, or skillful lessons, performances, and deceptions. In both cases, the being is rather forcefully implied. To apply the word to inanimate objects has an awkward ring to it. For example, no one says the sun is skillful at warming the earth or the watch is skillful at measuring time. The reason these sound funny is that there is clearly no being for skillful to refer to. In thinking about dhammas, there is such a strong tendency to subconsciously look for self in the dhammas that "skillful" can feel quite comfortable and preferable to less "animate" words. It is strange to hear of your preference for the comfort of the Self-validating "skillful" over other, less ditthi-inducing words. What do the commentaries say? Well, we briefly discussed Asl. earlier ["skilful" is excluded from the list of appropriate glosses for kusala when it applies to dhammas, but is explicitly mentioned as a fine way to think about dancing, singing, etc.], and U Narada, in his Introduction to "Conditional Relations", writes: "'Skilful'. ...it cannot apply to moral states, not even to the sensuous, leave alone the lofty and supramundane. The Commentary states that 'skilful' is not a suitable meaning....The meaning of 'kusala' is also given in the Commentaries on the Suttas..." He then goes on to list where the word is defined in some 14 places in sutta commentaries. None of them include "skilful", and some explicitly say 'skilful' is not an appropriate gloss for kusala as applied to mental states. Why do you think the commentaries, Ven. Nyanatiloka [in his dictionary], and U Narada would so clearly reject 'skillful'?... Dan 11341 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I don't know enough about the teachings of other traditions to comment, > but with respect Rob, I don't think the pronouncements you mention should > carry any weight in coming to a conclusion (if one felt the need to do > so). Hi Jon. The only conclusion I guess one would want to come to is 'how to practice or put into practice' the Buddha's teachings in order to reach the end of suffering. Anyway, thanks for at least trying to answer my questions. Best, Robert Ep. 11342 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Howard > > > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > > > > > There is much in the following that I agree with, for example > > the > > > > > > > > relevance of motivation and underlying sense urgency for effective > > > > volition. > > > > Where we differ is, in part, a matter of emphasis. I detect a flavor > > of > > > > "randomness" in your analysis, a randomness tending towards the > > nihilist > > > > pole > > > > of wrong view, whereas my tendency is towards the opposite > > > > substantialist > > > > pole of wrong view. But most precisely, where we differ is on the > > issue > > > > of > > > > whether the Buddha provided a training program (my position) or only > > a > > > > statement of what conditions foster what results (your apparent > > > > position). > > > > > > I seem to recall that 'trainer of gods and men' is one of the > > attributes > > > of a Buddha, so I hesitate to give my unqualified agreement to your > > > characterisation of our difference! > > > > > > Let me just say that I'm not aware of any 'program' laid down by the > > > Buddha for attaining enlightenment. > > > > > > I do, however, see the teachings as making known, and encouraging the > > > development of, the factors that lead to enlightenment. > > > > > > Jon > > > > Jon, I'm just picking on you, but how is encouraging the development of > > a set of > > specific factors that lead to a given result, different than 'laying > > down a > > program'? I think it is more a question of what one's philosophy is. > > No problem, Rob. I'm going to pass this one to Howard, since the > distinction was his in the first place (see above) ;-) ;-). > > > As I read it, your point of view goes something like this [I am standing > > up so you > > can knock me down]: > > > > 1/ there is no self. > > 2/ therefore there is no one that has volition. > > 3/ therefore there is no control. > > 4/ therefore there can be no program that 'one' engages in to get a > > result. > > 5/ therefore taking on mundane efforts like meditating or trying to be > > mindful in > > order to progress merely enforces the illusion that there is a > > volitional ego. > > 6/ therefore the attempt to make progress makes progress more > > difficult. > > 7/ therefore there is only one correct path, and that is to do whatever > > you are > > already doing, but see clearly to the extent possible, and without > > creating a > > separate effort, to discern the true characteristic of the moment > > The above is mostly correct as a statement of my understanding of what is > found in the teachings (rather than being a view reached by means of steps > 1-7 or the like) > > > My only problem with this, if it is correct, is that even the attempt to > > read the > > suttas and apply one's understanding to the 'naturally occurring moment > > in daily > > living' is as much a volitional effort as sitting down to meditate. I > > don't think > > there's any way to escape the fact that when we set upon the path to try > > to > > transcend the illusion of the self and discern the true nature of the > > moment, we > > are using the illusion of the volitional self in order to get rid of the > > illusion > > of the volitional self. This paradox, I believe, should be utilized, > > rather than > > danced away from. The illusion of passivity when in fact one is trying > > as hard as > > possible to find the way to enlightenment seems to me to add another > > layer of > > illusion on top of the one we already have. Even if we 'try hard' there > > is still > > actually no volitional self. That doesn't necessarily mean that there > > is no > > 'volition'. > > The fact of what we call volitional effort is not in dispute, Rob. The > equating of right effort with that volitional effort is what I have taken > issue with. > > Jon Okay. Best, Robert Ep. 11343 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Dear Jon, Give the clarifications below, which I read as you saying that there basically is no practice, there is only the arising of discernment or understanding, brought on by the concordance of factors, what is the practitioner given to do or understand in order to accord with or bring about those conditions? Or does it in fact have nothing to do with the practitioner and there is basically nothing to do. If one studies the suttas, that is because the conditions have arisen to cause this, and one cannot decide to study them, or refrain from studying them. The conditions will make the decision. Or is there something that we are in fact called upon to do in order to create the proper environment for these conditions to arise? Best, Robert Ep. ==================== --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > I still don't understand how our limitations in discerning dictates > > against > > practice. Whether or not we are able to presently discern the reality > > of each > > moment from moment to moment, the attempt to do so will lead to greater > > ability. > > I know that you don't believe this from what you have said, but still > > don't > > understand your reasoning very well. > > I think you are saying that- > a. The path taught by the Buddha involves seeing clearly each > moment-to-moment reality as it arises; and > b. The way this seeing clearly is developed is by concentrating on the > present moment. > > I believe that (a) above is not what we are taught as the path. I think > what we are told is that our ignorance and wrong view about realities has > to be dispelled. This implies *sufficiently* knowing realites so that > there is no longer any room for doubt about the matter. > > As to (b), I can only repeat the comments in my post of a minute ago. > Concentrating on the present moment is concentrating with existing > misconceptions and preconceptions. Awareness does not arise just because > we have sat down to concentrate on things. > > Jon > > Is it really enough to understand that consciousness is a moment to > > moment > > phenomena? *Any* attempt to apply the suttas to daily life can be > > described as a > > 'technique', just as meditating may be described as a technique to do > > the same, > > and it seems to me that some sort of application, however awkward, is > > exactly what > > is called for. If meditating is something I do, it becomes part of > > daily living, > > and is therefore at least as eligible for discernment as any other daily > > activity. > > As I said in an earlier post to you-- > > >> As far as 'specific practices' are concerned, I don't believe there are > >> any given by the Buddha, and I include here studying the suttas and > >> 'discerning the present moment'. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ====================== > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Rob Ep > > > > > > Let me continue my reply to your post (working backwards). > > > > > > > It is also my experience that the mind is much more focussed when I > > > > meditate. It > > > > makes sense to me that if one is talking and writing and answering > > the > > > > phone, > > > > jumping from one activity to the next in the normal course of the > > day, > > > > that all of > > > > these changes are harder to follow as a practice than sitting still > > and > > > > observing a less busy field of experience. ... > > > > Meditation is ... a concentrated period in which one > > > > focuses the mind on the moment. > > > > > > I am sure that many would share your view that awareness of a > > presently > > > appearing reality means or suggests 'following' the mind as it jumps > > from > > > one activity to another. Yet I think that is a wholly impossible > > task, > > > and not really what the Buddha was describing for the development of > > the > > > path. It's true that we can find in the suttas descriptions of all > > the > > > different mind-states (and other realities), and how extremely fast > > these > > > change from one to the other. But only the likes of a Buddha can ever > > get > > > to see the mind on a purely moment-to-moment basis. > > > > > > For us, as beginners, it is enough to know that consciousness *is* a > > > moment-to-moment phenomenom and hence a constantly changing one, so > > that > > > we do not assume it to be otherwise. When we read in, say, the > > > Satipatthana Sutta about awareness of a presently appearing reality > > (e.g. > > > seeing or visible object), there is nothing that requires this to be > > *only > > > a single moment* of that reality. As I understand, there may be many > > > moments of awareness of the same object as it arises in an apparently > > > continuous stream (since we don't have the discernment to see these > > things > > > on a moment to moment basis). Initially, it is the characteristic of > > > being a nama or a rupa, or of appearing through a particular doorway, > > that > > > is apparent, rather than its purely momentary nature (not to mention > > the > > > even more 'advanced' characteristics of impermanence etc.). > > > > > > What I am trying to say, Rob, is that the idea of awareness as > > involving > > > or being a function of our focussing on the present moment and > > following > > > the activity of the mind needs to be put aside if the true nature of > > the > > > presently appearing reality is to be discerned. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, 11344 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) (III) Thanks for writing from Bangkok, Jon! I am slowly getting clearer about the understanding you are expressing, but it still may take me a while. Thanks for putting up with all the questions I've been posing, 'with a vengeance' as you say. Best, Robert Ep. ========= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Thanks for this and the (many) other posts you have sent recently. Back > with a vengeance!! > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > In the realm of mindfulness, there are no expedient techniques, nor > > any > > > need for them. Any technique simply serves to take one away from the > > > present present moment. > > > > > > I hope this is to the point. > > > > It is to the point, I just disagree. I don't see any reason why sitting > > to > > concentrate on the present moment would make the present moment more > > obscure, nor > > why practicing something in a 'cool' setting will deprive one of doing > > it in a > > more busy 'hot' setting, but rather the contrary, that it will help, nor > > why > > training in discernment is any more artificial than reading suttas to > > try to > > understand the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha never said that one can > > only > > practice 'in the natural setting', did he? > > There are 2 separate points here which i perhaps did not sufficiently > distinguish in my earlier reply (above). > > The first is that sitting concentrating on the present moment is something > that anyone can do. It may or may not be wholesome but it certainly can > not be equated with awareness of a presently arising reality. > > The second is that *having the idea* that sitting concentrating etc is the > way in which awareness is best developed necessarily implies, whether or > not consciously recognised or acknowledged, the idea that there is a > *better time/place/occasion than this very moment* in which realities ccan > be directly experienced. This is what I meant by the reference to > expedient techniques taking one away from the present moment. > > > I would like to know where in the tradition of abhidhamma the idea that > > meditation > > had a negative influence on understanding arose. It seems the opposite > > of how > > Buddhist philosophy is generally interpreted. Am I mistaken? > > I don't believe this represents anything I've said, Rob. I have simply > tried to distinguish between *awareness of a presently arising reality* > and *(sitting) concentrating on the present moment*. > > Good to have your input again, Rob. > > Jon > (Bangkok) 11345 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 5:39pm Subject: Re: Dear Sarah ("kusala" revisited) --- Dear Dan, Really interesting! I hadn't thought of the controlling connotations of skillful but they are there, for sure, now that you bring it to light. I never noticed that Narada had specificially rejected it. One of my mothers dislikes in Nina's books are the words wholesome and unwholesome (it reminds her of homemade bread she says)- (the other is the pali terms) - but these are more accurate than skilful and unskilful. Narada uses faultless and faulty which are accurate but a little technical; BTW I was thinking to send you a few tapes and some unpublished letters of Nina's if you are interested. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "onco111" wrote: > [I recently wrote a note to Sarah, and she asked me to post excerpts > here so we could consider some of the points together with the whole > crew. The relevant parts follow.] > > Dear Sarah, > ...I am just so surprised to see you glossing "kusala" as "skillful"! > Last winter, I explicitly used "skillful" when the conversation would > steer uncomfortably close to anatta -- something that people are more > loathe to accept than even the moral/immoral/amoral triplet! > > I confess my subversive intent in using "skillful" back then. I > thought (and probably wrote) things like: "These guys talk about > anatta too much and over-emphasize Right View instead of balancing it > with talk about the other parts of the path, like Right Effort." Of > course, much of the time I was thinking about conventional effort > (despite the fact that I thought I was talking about Right Effort). I > was delighted when I stumbled onto the "skillful" gloss for "kusala" > because I could use it in my quest to steer the conversation back to > the more comfortable realm of mistaking conventional effort for Right > Effort and of making it easier to stay firmly rooted in sakaya- ditthi > [personality view]. Now Sarah is doing the same thing (albeit, > unintentionally). > > How so? First, a quick question: How should I practice so that I can > get good at (skillful) making desirable dhammas arise? > > Yeah, yeah, I know. You mean to apply "skillful" just to the dhammas > themselves... But how would that work? When a citta rooted in alobha, > adosa, amoha arises, is it "skillful"? I.e., does it have or > demonstrate skill? The dictionary defines skill as "the ability to do > something well, arising from talent, training, or practice." I'm > curious. What talent, training, or practice has the citta engaged in > to give it that ability to do what it does well? Obviously, it > doesn't do any such thing; it is there for just a brief moment before > passing away. It would be nice to just remove the "arising from > talent, training, or practice" clause from the definition. The desire > to do so might be there, but it's not such an easy thing to do! The > definition of "skill" was skillfully constructed with the "arising > from..." clause included precisely because that's what naturally > comes to mind when people think of the word. To ignore it or try > to "remove" the clause is to shut one's eyes to the strong tendency > of people to associate training and practice with the > word "skillful," and imagine the skillful being rather than the > kusala dhamma. It is because of this tendency that the > word "skillful" is (only?) applied to beings and their works (and is > precisely why I used to use it to keep the conversation on dsg > comfortable for sakayaditti). For example, skillful teachers, > dancers, and liars, or skillful lessons, performances, and > deceptions. In both cases, the being is rather forcefully implied. To > apply the word to inanimate objects has an awkward ring to it. For > example, no one says the sun is skillful at warming the earth or the > watch is skillful at measuring time. The reason these sound funny is > that there is clearly no being for skillful to refer to. In thinking > about dhammas, there is such a strong tendency to subconsciously look > for self in the dhammas that "skillful" can feel quite comfortable > and preferable to less "animate" words. It is strange to hear of your > preference for the comfort of the Self-validating "skillful" over > other, less ditthi-inducing words. > > What do the commentaries say? Well, we briefly discussed Asl. earlier > ["skilful" is excluded from the list of appropriate glosses for > kusala when it applies to dhammas, but is explicitly mentioned as a > fine way to think about dancing, singing, etc.], and U Narada, in his > Introduction to "Conditional Relations", writes: "'Skilful'. ...it > cannot apply to moral states, not even to the sensuous, leave alone > the lofty and supramundane. The Commentary states that 'skilful' is > not a suitable meaning....The meaning of 'kusala' is also given in > the Commentaries on the Suttas..." He then goes on to list where the > word is defined in some 14 places in sutta commentaries. None of them > include "skilful", and some explicitly say 'skilful' is not an > appropriate gloss for kusala as applied to mental states. Why do you > think the commentaries, Ven. Nyanatiloka [in his dictionary], and U > Narada would so clearly reject 'skillful'?... > > Dan 11346 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) --- Dear Rob, From another angle: One of the descriptions of the khandas given in the Patisambhidhimagga is that they are alien, not us. What discerment discerns is the utter anattaness of all dhammas. If we have the idea of me doing something to get somewhere this is being caught in the whirl of view. But dhammas arise because of conditions, there is not even a hint of self who could make them arise. Now you are studying Dhamma and there is right effort arising together with right concentration that supports right view that can understand this. This is at the theoretical level but these factors can develop to much higher degrees. Usually people want high levels of concentration because this feels different from normal life - it is calmer- and so one perceives progress. But the progress of vipassana is about wearing away wrong view - and any concentration that arises with vipassana is always associated with right insight. You perhaps find it a little worrying that there is no self who can decide to do this or that to make sure he is going in the right direction. But seeing this leads to detachment from the idea of self and that is the beginning of insight. I think you don't feel concerend that, for instance, there is seeing whenever the eyes are open - no one can stop it occuring. But all dhammas , all realities are the same: they arise by conditions and cease when those conditions are not present. Understanding must comprehend whatever dhammas - whether kusala or akusala or vipaka or kiriya - arise as being essentially the same; that is they are anatta, dukkha and anicca. Then one doesn't turn away from whatever arises and there is right effort that assists investigation. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > Give the clarifications below, which I read as you saying that there basically is > no practice, there is only the arising of discernment or understanding, brought on > by the concordance of factors, what is the practitioner given to do or understand > in order to accord with or bring about those conditions? Or does it in fact have > nothing to do with the practitioner and there is basically nothing to do. If one > studies the suttas, that is because the conditions have arisen to cause this, and > one cannot decide to study them, or refrain from studying them. The conditions > will make the decision. Or is there something that we are in fact called upon to > do in order to create the proper environment for these conditions to arise? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ==================== > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep 11347 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta (was, The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Jon - ... > > As far as my characterization of the Satipatthana Sutta as a > > "training > > manual" rather than as a purely descriptive work, all I can say is > that > > this > > is totally obvious to me. However, I understand that the opposite is > > totally > > obvious to you! So we will just have to "agree to disagree" on this > one. ... > ==================================== > To say a drop more, I've pasted below part of the > Mahasatipatthana > Sutta (from the Digha Nikaya) to which I add a comment or two: > The part of the Satipatthana Sutta that you have chosen (below) is the standard description of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as found throughout the sutta pitaka. As such, although it is useful to a consideration of the meaning of the Noble Eightfold Path and the 4th Noble Truth, it is not, I think, relevant to the question of the descriptive/prescriptive nature of the Satipatthana Sutta itself (in fact, as you would know, this particular passage is not included in the Majjhima Nikaya version of the sutta). More pertinent, I suggest, is the passage that precedes the section you have quoted. This reads as follows (from the Wisdom translation ‘Long Discourses of the Buddha’): ------- ‘A monk abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in respect of the Four Noble Truths. How does he do so? Here, a monk knows as it really is: “This is suffering”; he knows as it really is: “This is the origin of suffering”; he knows as it really is: “This is the cessation of suffering”; he knows as it really is: “This is the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering.” [Then follows the standard description of the Four Noble Truths, including the passage you have quoted ...] ‘So he abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects ... And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in respect of the Four Noble Truths.’ ------- I do not see anything *prescriptive*, or descriptive of a *practice preliminary to/leading to* satipatthana, in this. It seems to be talking about actual moments of awareness accompanied by right understanding, in other words, moments of vipassana. A further point to consider is this. Mind-objects as object of satipatthana encompasses dhammas of all kinds, including unwholesome mental factors and rupas also. The full list of mind-objects given in the Satipatthana Sutta is as follows: a/. the 5 hindrances (nivarana) b/. the 5 aggregates (khandhas) c/. the 6 sense-bases d/. the 7 factors of enlightenment e/. the Four Noble Truths In each instance, the passage in question states that the mind-object is *known as it really is*, and this to me is the essence of the sutta. It is something that applies regardless of the nature of the mind-object in question – kusala or akusala, nama or rupa. Jon > "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with > > regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the > cessation > of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the > cessation of stress: This is called right view. "And what is right > resolve? > Aspiring to renunciation, to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: > This is > called right resolve. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, > from > divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is > called > right speech. "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, > from > stealing, & from sexual intercourse. This is called right action. "And > what > is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble > ones, > having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right > livelihood: This is called right livelihood. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The preceding could be taken either descriptively or > prescriptively, > although 'abstaining' usually suggests intentional action. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates > desire, > endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake > of > the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet > arisen... for > the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have > arisen... > for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet > arisen... > (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, & > culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right > > effort. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The expressions 'generates desire', 'endeavors', 'arouses, > upholds & > exerts his intent' strike me as unambigiously indicating intentional > effort. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains > focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- > putting > aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused > on > feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > qualities in > & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & > distress > with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness. "And what > is > right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn > from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & > remains > in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied > by > directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & > evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure > born > of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & > evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains > in > equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters > & > remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous > & > mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure > & > pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he > enters & > remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, > neither > pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The definition here of what constitutes "right concentration" > strikes > me as rather clear and unambiguous. Moreover, it constitutes a > relatively > large part of the sutta. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > "This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the > cessation of stress. > ================================= > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a > bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, > a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > I'm a: Seeking a: Age: to City or ZIP: 11348 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:49pm Subject: Pali Canon Anywhere For those friends who have a Palm device ... http://www.mindspring.com/~darrengoh/canon/ Metta, Leonardo 11349 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 9:09pm Subject: Back from Bkk and Rob Ep's 'busque' post Dear Rob Ep & friends, We’re back in Hong Kong and Christine is back in Oz (not the Wizard’s) after an action-packed dhamma discussion weekend, both at the Foundation w/ K.Sujin and other friends including Sukin and Jaran and light-hearted dhamma-related ‘chats’ together in the garden of our hotel...We got back midday yesterday and Jon had a quick change and straight into the office to catch up on legal drafts waiting for him. Meanwhile I was straight into teaching some teenage boys and the more down to earth language of what ‘sucks’and doesn’t ‘suck’ and what is still ‘cool’ or no longer ‘cool’ rather than the niceties of definitions of ‘kusala’ and ‘akusala’. I know Christine was meanwhile going to be straight off her flight in Brisbane (after a very long trip and change of flights in Sydney) and into the hospital where she works, but she'll be adding her own far wittier account and maybe Jaran will add his, if he managed to get the stand-by flight back to Singapore. Different stories, different concepts, but the same realities and different moments of vipaka (result of kamma) followed by likes, dislikes and thinking. We discussed a lot about what is taken for being a good result, such as a holiday on the beach in Samui or pleasant surroundings, or bad result, such as an accident or worse, which are really only very brief experiences through different doorways such as the eye or body-sense, followed by the story. Each brief moment of vipaka is conditioned by kamma (with so many other complex conditions at play as Rob K has pointed out), that there’s really nothing to be envious of at all. Hence more understanding of realities and conditions leads to less envy and less taking the ‘world’ for selves or beings. The sotapanna has no more wrong view of self and issa (envy) has been totally eradicated. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Sarah, > Apologies in advance for being kind of brusque in this post. > Explanation at the > end. : ) I’m going to leave the meat for later as I have some office work I need to attend to first;-( Believe me, meanwhile, that your idea of ‘brusque’ or ‘harsh’ is always very polite and considerate from my point of view. I prefer and appreciate the “I strongly disagree because of a) b) c)..” response to the “thankyou for trying to answer my questions ” or “ I’ve read your response and no comment ” replies;-) > I'm sorry I sound kind of mean in this post. I realized midway that it > was from > you and not from Jon. We've been tough with each other lately > [male thing > ], but I have a tendency to want to be a little nicer with you. Jon feels this is a little sexist ....meanwhile, as I mentioned, my students are pretty tough with me, (especially after a long holiday when I’ve set them lots of ‘sucks’ homework and have to face the consequences;-) ), so be as tough or nice as you like... > Although I suspect that you are actually just as tough. > It's just my delusion as usual. : ) I appreciate the good intentions. Best wishes for now...will catch up w/ the meat from your post, Dan’s and any others later. Sarah p.s a computer that works - my definition of 'bliss' for today;-) ===================================== 11350 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali Canon Anywhere Hi Leonardo, This is an easy one to respond to quickly as I don't have a Palm device;-) Thanks for thinking of us and I'm sure some do. You might consider a brief translation to tell us what we're missing out on meanwhile. Could be just the thing on the beach for all I know. Btw, are you still carefully following dsg? How's the dhamma in Brazil these days? Seems like a long time since we heard from you and Alex..... ..and of course, we'd all love you both to add yr pixs to the photo album.... with a little metta and quite a lot of lobha ;-), Sarah ================================ --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > > For those friends who have a Palm device ... > > http://www.mindspring.com/~darrengoh/canon/ > > Metta, > Leonardo > 11351 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from Bkk and Rob Ep's 'busque' post Dear Rob Ep, Sorry about the 'busque' heading which should of course be a 'brusque' heading.....(hope my students aren't reading;-) S. 11352 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 10:50pm Subject: Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. Dear All, After my first visit to Bangkok over New Year, I felt that this time I would be much better prepared. I knew how to get from Oz-home to Thai-hotel, so the anxiety level was much reduced. Last time I was wondering about meeting unknown people, but this time I was happily anticipating seeing Dhamma friends again. My plan (uh-oh) was to read certain articles and books, and bring a list of any questions that arose to the English Discussion Group and Khun Sujin. But events outside my control threw some completely different questions onto the table. Some sad events in the days before I was to travel, caused a dear one emotional and mental pain, and put the trip in doubt for a while. So, there was no well prepared list of questions....just an intense feeling about the fragility of life, the preciousness and finiteness of time, and the need to use both wisely. Thoughts were filled with death/kamma, attachment/dukkha, and anatta/no-control.......it's one thing to read about, discuss and try to understand these topics, considering them at a safe distance, but it is quite another to have them crash through the imaginary safety barrier surrounding ones' own family. It was the attachment/dukkha link pointed out by one friend and discussed with others, that resulted in a growth in understanding for me, and a tentative beginning of discussing Dhamma with family members. Reading the chapters on Lobha in Ninas' books 'Cetasikas', and 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' was an 'education' , particularly when I had the tragic incident and everyones' reactions (mine included) to reflect on.....and Lobha is everywhere even in seemingly tiny, previously unconsidered and insignificant things.......and it hides under different names.....(it's much more serious and pervasive than I had realised before). So - the visit to Bangkok went ahead..... Much gratitude and appreciation for the presence and teaching of Khun Sujin.... It was wonderful to see Jon and Sarah, K. Amara (too briefly), K. Sukin (almost taking over K. Amaras' title of rally driver supreme - I closed my eyes Sukin, when you were crossing the path of oncoming traffic to get into the Marriott - masterly skill!!), K. Jaran, K. Saengchan, K. Sujit, K. Ivan and K. Ell, and to once again enjoy the delightful and generous hospitality of K. Duangduen. Thankful for those who could be there, and missing those from last time, who were otherwise engaged....Betty, Mike, Erik and Eath among these...... {And when are all the rest of you coming? ....... I encourage you to think about it, it won't happen unless you form the intention .......New Year sounds a good time..... :-)} As to what I learned this time - I'm not sure I can articulate it exactly yet, .......... need a while (firstly to sleep) and then to process and reflect on events, and the formal (and, equally valuable, informal) discussions. This time I have brought home the valued gift of tapes of the sessions with Khun Sujin, to listen to. Having only 'seen' Pali words, not 'heard' them prior to Bangkok, I seem to have invented my own pronunciation, and now have to re-learn the correct way. I definitely learned more about all of the topics mentioned above, as well as understanding a little more the difference between 'thinking' and 'seeing this moment and having awareness of this moment' - plus something (new to me) about the attributes of compassion (not always overtly warm and fuzzy), and the power of kilesas and accumulations to strongly influence or even 'take control' of our behaviour. I was brought back to earth with a thump after the long afternoon/night/morning journey to Brisbane. Taxi straight from the Airport to the Hospital to be met by big grins and a volley of remarks (a couple bordering on salacious) from a mob of irreverent workmates, about the 'style' of the weekend in Bangkok..... Sarah and Jon - you would have been 'almost' proud of me, when I 'almost' didn't respond....... I have to admit I came off second best this time though, outnumbered, outgunned and outmanouevred ......... only due to jetlag though..... there is always another time. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- And though the cruelest torture wouldn't wring the details from me - I keep getting visions of a couple of people creeping (?) around the Hotel en deshabille (about 2 a.m. wasn't it, Sarah? is that right, Jon?) - or was it a dream?....... :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) 'what' was continually turning the lights on and off at that hour? (Perhaps it was Ivans' "Clingons" from the Star Trek repeats?)...... and who WAS that other (unmasked) man in your room? (Someone Scotty "beamed DOWN"?) :-) :-) Does this constitute a 'squaring' of the account, after you two produced my naively trusting breakfast time questions (on the last visit) during the Discussions? :-) .... Or have I started a payback feud?? ..... Do I have to unsubscribe? :-) :-) I can abjectly and servilely apologise if that would help? Or, ..... I can be helpful and ask MORE questions, if you'd like me to.....? :-) :-) :-) ......Strangely, I have this overpowering feeling of being so glad I'm physically a thousand kilometres away from you both just at this time....... that's Vedana, right? Somanassa or Domanassa? Now Jon, you probably see you have a case for a Civil Action against me of 'slander' and 'impugning of reputation', I need to state, at the outset, that I'll claim 'mental incompetence to stand trial, due to sleep deprivation' - and besides which, I made no statements...I only asked questions...... :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- metta, Christine 11353 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 11:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dear Sarah ("kusala" revisited) Dear Rob K, > Dear Dan, > Really interesting! I hadn't thought of the controlling connotations > of skillful but they are there, for sure, now that you bring it to > light. I never noticed that Narada had specificially rejected it. > One of my mothers dislikes in Nina's books are the words wholesome > and unwholesome (it reminds her of homemade bread she says)- (the > other is the pali terms) - but these are more accurate than skilful > and unskilful. > Narada uses faultless and faulty which are accurate but a little > technical; I'm glad to hear your comments too....I don't think I'd ever thought of these connotations before either....there are several Pali words like 'nama, 'rupa', 'citta', 'viriya', 'sanna' and certainly 'kusala' which I'd be very happy never to have to translate;-) Still, the Pali can be read with misunderstanding and wrong view too;-) Yes, my mother also reacts to 'wholesome'...I 'm smiing at the 'homemade bread' ;-) I'll look f/w to any further comments on this topic and hope to add some too. > BTW I was thinking to send you a few tapes and some unpublished > letters of Nina's if you are interested. By coincidence, Dan had just told me he'd like to listen to some tapes while doing chores, so I'm sure he'll gratefully accept your offers. I'm sure the series of tapes from our weekend in Bkk will also be a good series -clear and action-packed (though unedited) Q&A w/ K.Sujin (about 10hrs of tape), so I'll repeat the details of how anyone can receive these in a separate post when I've found the links. Meanwhile, I know that Tom (a lurking member) who was on the India trip has worked hard to edit and digitise the English discussions from that trip and these and other tapes should be available on one or more of the websites before too long. Dan also asked about any of K.Sujin's books which have been translated and published in English. I'm wondering if either you or Nina would kindly list these and perhaps Sukin would add a note as to which are available for free distribution from Bkk. Is 'Metta' or anything else available from Wisdom Bks or Amazon, I wonder? Thanks for any help. Sarah ================================ 11354 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 11:25pm Subject: Tapes & Books from Bangkok Dear Friends, If you would like to order tapes or books for personal use from the Foundation in Bangkok (the centre where Khun Sujin teaches), send your request to: dhammastudy00@h... cc: fsciunh@k... specifying the titles (for books) and dates of discussion (for tapes) you would like. Please make sure you give your name and postal address exactly as it should appear on the package. Costs have all been covered in advance. The editing & copying of tapes and sending of tapes and books is done by volunteers in their spare time, so please expect delays! If you mention that they don’t need to be edited, it’ll be faster. The dates to be specified for tapes of our recent weekend discussions are 15th,16th and 17th Feb. If you lose these email adds, they're in the posts under 'Books and Tapes' in 'Useful Posts' on the homepage. ********** Sukin previously sent the following message and I know he’s always happy to help if anyone prefers to contact him directly (off-list). (Some of the tites may now be out of stock). Dear Group, For new members and old members who might have not read the original post or who might have forgotten about it, I am reposting the list of books that are available from the foundation, for free distribution. 1. Realities and Concepts. 2. Letters from Nina.(En/Th) 3. Understanding Reality.(En/Th) 4. Abhidhamma in Daily Life. 5. Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka.(En/Th) 6. Mental Development in Daily Life.(En/Th). A set of four books as follows:- a.) The Greatest Blessings. b.) Death c.) The Eighhtfold Path. d.) Tranquil Meditation and Vipassana. The (En/Th) means that these books are half in English and half in Thai (one facing the other side by side). Those of you who might have made the request and have not yet recieved the books, please kindly let me know. Metta, Sukin. PS: Please note that all correspondence regarding this matter is to be made privately to me and not to the group. ====================================================== 11355 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. Dear Num & friends, I think we could do with a professional diagnosis here.....are these the ravings of a) sleep-deprivation b) an overdose of dhamma discussion c)Star Trek addiction in a former life d) other -pls indicate --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > And though the cruelest torture wouldn't wring the details from me - > I keep getting visions of a couple of people creeping (?) around > the Hotel en deshabille (about 2 a.m. wasn't it, Sarah? is that > right, Jon?) - or was it a dream?....... > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) 'what' was continually turning the lights on > and off at that hour? (Perhaps it was Ivans' "Clingons" from the > Star Trek repeats?)...... and who WAS that other (unmasked) man in > your room? (Someone Scotty "beamed DOWN"?) :-) :-) I’ll see if I can add a little translation to help with the diagnosis first;-) I think she’s trying to say that on Saturday nite at 2am, Jon and I decided to change rooms. Neither the respectable and properly attired engineer nor we in our barely semi- respectable nightware were able to solve the mystery of the lights turning on and off in our room with plenty to challenge the kilesa (the defilements) I'm sorry to say. A very normal procedure I would have thought. Now if the patient hadn’t subsequently recounted the Star Trek adventures to me, I’d have no idea about the rest. I rather advise a Google search rather than a request for more details, unless you have considerable patience;-) > Does this constitute a 'squaring' of the account, after you two > produced my naively trusting breakfast time questions (on the last > visit) during the Discussions? :-) .... Or have I started a payback > feud?? ..... Do I have to unsubscribe? :-) :-) I can abjectly and > servilely apologise if that would help? Or, ..... I can be helpful > and ask MORE questions, if you'd like me to.....? > :-) :-) :-) Oh my goodness....help, Num....don’t let her ask MORE > ......Strangely, I have this overpowering feeling of being so glad > I'm physically a thousand kilometres away from you both just at this > time....... that's Vedana, right? Somanassa or Domanassa? Does she think we’re psychic too? > Now Jon, you probably see you have a case for a Civil Action against > me of 'slander' and 'impugning of reputation', I need to state, at > the outset, that I'll claim 'mental incompetence to stand trial, due > to sleep deprivation' - and besides which, I made no statements...I > only asked questions...... :-) Oh dear again, I think there will be no doubt about the mental incompetence...I’m sure Num, you will write a kind report. I’ll have to let the law draftsman comment on the finer points of when a question becomes a statement. I'm not sure if it can be given a dhammic twist either;-) ***** In her defence I must also say that spending time with Christine is a real inspiration. The sincere interest in the dhamma and the willingness to make such a big trip (twice now) for a weekend of discussion has impressed and encouraged everyone in Bangkok. On a personal level, she has become a highly valued friend and good example for me in many, many respects. Sarah p.s Chris....I have a picture of you sleep-walking round the wards and telling Rusty (your dog, I think) about your adventures....what a ‘sport’ you are;-)) Thanks for touching base and sharing your reflections with us. It was a real joy to spend time with you and to hear your questions and ponderings. ================================================ 11356 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tapes & Books from Bangkok Dear Friends, I wrote: > send your request to: > dhammastudy00@h... cc: fsciunh@k... I've been told by one member that the first add for the Foundation doesn't seem to be working, so for the time being, pls send any requests to K. Unnop at what was the cc address: fsciunh@k... If you have any problems, I know Sukin is happy to help too: sukin@k... Sarah =========================================== 11357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:05am Subject: India Ch 3, no. 1 India Ch 3, no. 1 Chapter 3 Clinging to Concepts Citta, consciousness, experiences something, it experiences an object. Acharn Sujin reminded us many times during our journey that each citta experiences an object. Citta could not arise if there were no object. The object is one of the conditions for the arising of citta. Without citta, colour, sound and the other sense objects could not appear. We should apply what the Abhidhamma teaches about citta and object to this moment of our daily life. We heard Acharn Sujin say many times that visible object appears now, and that it could not appear if there were no seeing that experiences it. We listen to the Dhamma and we read the texts about the objects experienced through the six doorways, but do we really consider this deeply and apply it to this very moment? Theoretical knowledge, pariyatti, is a foundation for the understanding of the level of paìipatti, practice, that is direct understanding of realities appearing one at a time through the six doorways. Acharn Sujin spoke during our journey about seeing, hearing, the other sense-cognitions and the sense objects time and again, but we found this not monotonous. It is a vivid reminder to begin to investigate those dhammas as they appear in daily life. In this way all we hear and read in the Suttas can become more meaningful, we can come to see that everything that appears is dhamma. Thus, studying dhamma, reality, is studying with mindfulness of what appears at this very moment. The purpose of our study should be understanding of our life at this moment. This is a new approach to life, to the world. We are used to being infatuated with the world of people and all the things around us without understanding what is really there: nåma and rúpa that arise because of their appropriate conditions and then fall away immediately. When we perceive people there are in reality different moments of citta: seeing is different from thinking of the meaning of what we see. When we perceive a person or a thing, we pay attention to a mental image of a whole, and we are absorbed in all the details of what is seen. This happens during all our activities in daily life when we, for example, add sugar and milk to our coffee, use knife and fork when we are eating, when we are reading or walking. A mental image of a whole is not a reality, a dhamma, it is a concept, paññatti. The word concept, in Påli paññatti, has different meanings: it is a name or term that conveys a meaning as well as the idea it makes known. Thus, it makes known and also, it is what has been made known. Names can denote persons or things that are not realities, or they can denote realities, such as different nåmas and rúpas. When we have a notion of a ³whole², such as a person or thing, we are thinking of an idea, a concept, not a reality, not a nåma or rúpa. When we were in Nålandå, we went to the grounds where the ancient monastic university has been excavated and sat down on the grass for a Dhamma discussion. The Buddha used to stay in Nålandå in Påvårika¹s Mango Grove where people from different religious groups visited him to discuss with him. Several centuries later a university was founded in Nålandå that became a famous center of learning for different religious groups. The Chinese pilgrim Hiuen Tsang, who lived in the seventh cetury, became a bright scholar in this university and he stayed in Nålandå for a long time. At that time Buddhism was already disappearing from India. There must have been many debates in Nålandå between different schools of thought. Acharn Sujin mentioned that one should carefully consider different points of view and that one should investigate the scriptures and commentaries in order to understand the subtle points of Dhamma, so that the teachings can be kept free from corruptions. She mentioned that, after her return, there would be a board meeting in Bangkok of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation to compare different viewpoints and clear up misunderstandings. The goal of such meetings is preserving the purity of the Buddha¹s teachings. In Nålandå we discussed the meaning of nimitta, the Påli term for image or mental picture. She explained that we think of an image on account of what we see, hear, and experience through all the sense-doors. We pay attention to an image of a whole and we are absorbed in all its details (in Påli: anuvyañjana). When we perceive a rose we think immediately of its shape and form, of an image, a concept; we may not even think of the name ³rose², but when we perceive the shape and form of a rose we are bound to take it for something that really exists. Each citta is accompanied by the cetasika saññå, perception or remembrance, that remembers or ³marks² the object so that it can be recognized later on. The recognition of a thing or a person is the result of many different processes of cittas, each of which is accompanied by saññå performing its function of marking and remembering. We may reason about the way saññå operates and wonder how and when it remembers a past object. This is only thinking, and by thinking we shall not understand realities. When someone found it difficult to understand that saññå marks as well as remembers, she answered that it is difficult to find a term that covers the real meaning of saññå. Acharn Sujin said that we should not cling to terms but understand the characteristics of realities appearing at this moment. The purpose of our study of the Dhamma is detachment, detachment from the idea of self. We can begin to understand, whenever we perceive different things we handle or use in daily life, such as a cup and a saucer or the computer, or whenever we perceive people, that it is not due to a self who remembers but to saññå. Saññå is an important condition for clinging. 11358 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. Christine --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > And though the cruelest torture wouldn't wring the details from me - > I keep getting visions of a couple of people creeping (?) around > the Hotel en deshabille (about 2 a.m. wasn't it, Sarah? is that > right, Jon?) - or was it a dream?....... > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) 'what' was continually turning the lights on > and off at that hour? (Perhaps it was Ivans' "Clingons" from the > Star Trek repeats?)...... and who WAS that other (unmasked) man in > your room? (Someone Scotty "beamed DOWN"?) :-) :-) > > Does this constitute a 'squaring' of the account, after you two > produced my naively trusting breakfast time questions (on the last > visit) during the Discussions? :-) .... Or have I started a payback > feud?? ..... Do I have to unsubscribe? :-) :-) I can abjectly and > servilely apologise if that would help? Or, ..... I can be helpful > and ask MORE questions, if you'd like me to.....? > :-) :-) :-) > ......Strangely, I have this overpowering feeling of being so glad > I'm physically a thousand kilometres away from you both just at this > time....... that's Vedana, right? Somanassa or Domanassa? > Now Jon, you probably see you have a case for a Civil Action against > me of 'slander' and 'impugning of reputation', I need to state, at > the outset, that I'll claim 'mental incompetence to stand trial, due > to sleep deprivation' - and besides which, I made no statements...I > only asked questions...... :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Obviously the Guidelines need further tightening to prohibit any comments tending to impugne the dignity and authority of the Moderators. However, since we failed to forese the possibility of such scandalous remarks, we are compelled to let you go without a formal warning on this occasion. Seriously though, we enjoyed seeing you again and appreciated your contribution to the discussion (both at the Foundation and 'off-list') over the weekend. Jon 11359 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hi Victor Could we put in the perspective that all beings are the five aggregates and in this view is not consider there is a denial of self or beings. I think Buddhaghosa may not be too explicit in his meaning that there is no self or being. He may just considered them as aggregates. Kind regards Ken O --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > ---Dear Lucy, Howard, Victor and all, > Thanks for your comments. Great to see you considering so carefully > Lucy, in your posts. > > Victor, > Thanks for carrying on the points you brought up on D-l. > I'll just repeat them here as they give extra details. You noted that > you disagree with the Visuddhimagga and find that Buddhaghosa was > holding to an extreme view in his denial of self and being. I found > this interesting as my letters were in responses to Buddhadasa of > Thailand who thought that the Visuddhimagga and Buddhaghosa went to > the opposite extreme and implied a self. > 11360 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:55pm Subject: Luminosity yet again! Dear Ken O and Rob Ep, Jon just pointed out a note by B.Bodhi at the back of his anthology from Anguttara Nikaya (p.278, note 13) which gives his own quite neat summary of the meaning of Luminous (pabhassaram) in the suttas we've discussed so much. I think this pretty much accords with what some of us have been saying and quoting. (Note AA refers to the commentary): "Luminous (pabhassaram). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers to the bhavanga-citta, the "life-continuum" or underlying stream of consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, most notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process which, in later Buddhist literature, is called javana, "impulsion". AA says that the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhavanga, but they 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. the fact that this expression "luminous mind" does not signify any "eternal and pure mind-essence" is evident for the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be extremely fleeting and transitory. the "uninstructed worldling" (assutavaa puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the dhamma and training in its practice." (I would just question the comment about 'in later Buddhist literature'...) Ken O, you also asked someone to check w/ K.Sujin about bhavanga cittas being pabhassaram (luminous) in hell realms or animal realms. She confirmed that this must be so (i.e. they are always pbhassaram). I understand this is because they are not yet affected by the defilements. Btw, a few people have been commenting on your long holiday from dsg....hope you're back for a while and have had a happy family Chinese New Year in Singapore. How about a nice family photo in the dsg photo album as a New Year gift to us all??? Best wishes, Sarah ================================== 11361 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS Dear Rob Ep, --- Robert Epstein wrote: R:> > > If sentience is said to cease in > > > parinibbana, then the one property that is not a convenient fiction > but > > > actually > > > takes place is said to be annihilated. > > S:> > I think, with respect, this is your definition of annihilation;-). > R:> Then what is your definition of sentience? My view of annihilation is > that > something is destroyed or made to cease. A cooler term is cessation but > means > basically the same thing. ..... Usually when we refer to sentience or sentient being, I think we are referring to a concept of essence or life or being (usually with wrong view of a being or self). When the Buddha talked about annihilation belief (as in the examples I gave before), I understand he was referring to the idea (convenient fiction) of there being such essence or self which is destroyed or annihilated at the end of this life. In fact, of course, what we take for a sentient being are in fact merely 5 khandhas with no being inside or outside them. At each moment there is the cessation of khandhas, but there remain conditions for new khandhas to arise at the next moment. This process of arising and falling away of khandhas continues ad finitum while there are conditions (i.e. avijja-ignorance) from moment to moment and from life to life. At the moment of arahatship, the cause for future arising in future births has been eradicated and therefore, at the end of the arahat’s life span, there is a final cessation of khandhas which has nothing to do with annihilation (view). ..... R:> Just as the experience of ignorance goes on continuously although > consisting of > many different sequential moments, the experience of 'wakefulness' or > enlightenment will go on for many moments once ignorance has been > eliminated. The > experience of being awake is nothing but the clear seeing of what is > when > ignorance has been removed, so even though it may occur in individual > moments it > will continue to occur in one who has been awakened. ..... I think we have to differentiate between panna (understanding) which will continue to understand many, many realities at different moments and nibbana, the unconditioned state, which is the object of very specific cittas arising with panna, of course. ..... R:>Certainly we > wouldn't say > that an arahant or Buddha had alternate moments of being enlightened and > deluded > since all delusion has been eradicated for him. Even if the experience > of > 'nibbana' is a one-moment experience [something which I respectfully do > not > understand from anything I've seen in the suttas] the experience of > 'liberation' > would be continous after that, even if it occurs from moment to moment. ..... This sounds pretty much right....although ‘continuous’ rather sounds like without any break, whereas we know that, for example at moments of vipaka citta (result of kamma), there is no panna or experience of liberation. At other moments of panna, the object will be realities rather than liberation. There is also still the thinking of concepts, but as you say, with no delusion at all. ..... R:> If > parinibbana is the cessation of this liberated series of cittas, then > what is > being made to 'cease' in parinibbana is the flow of enlightened cittas. ..... Not just the enlightened cittas, but all cittas, cetasikas and rupas. ..... S:> > We don’t say that nibbana is conditioned or depends on ‘physical > > existence’ or anything else, but the namas which experience it do. > R:> What is nibbana by the way, if it is a sort of solitary object that is > perceived > for a moment only by arahants? Where does it exist and how is it upheld > when no > one is perceiving it? Or does nibbana only come into being as an object > at the > moment when the arahant reaches the point of being able to discern it? ..... It only appears at the moment when it is directly experienced (firstly by the magga and phala cittas of the sotapanna). As it is the unconditioned reality, we cannot talk about where it exists or how it is upheld. I think that as understanding grows more and more deeply of the conditioned phenomena, it knows and has more confidence that there must be the unconditioned phenomena, but really, Rob, I’m not sure it’s useful (or I’m able) to speculate further on this. ..... R:> And what > is the characteristic of nibbana as an object? I have always thought of > nibbana > as a state in which ignorance has been removed, not an object. I don't > quite > understand what kind of object it is meant to be, and why it is an > object rather > than a state. ..... Hmm...as object, I think we can only say it is the unconditioned ‘deathless’ reality...the opposite to what is usually experienced. At any moment of panna, there is no ignorance and there is a glimpse of a reality. Ignorance is a mental factor that either arises or doesn’t with each citta. ..... R:> I'm sorry I sound kind of mean in this post. I realized midway that it > was from > you and not from Jon. ..... Am I beginning to sound like Jon I wonder???Is that good or bad??? I still haven’t detected any meanness in this or any post of yours. Good points and questions and I realize that though nibbana and parinibbana don’t seem very useful as topics to study for some of us, for others like yourself, the understanding of these areas affects the consideration of all other dhammas. Perhaps this is because of the different dhamma backgrounds we all come from. Hope I’ve clarified the points a little as I understand them and thanks for all your other posts. Hope you've caught up by now:-) Sarah ========================================= 11362 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminosity yet again! Dear Sarah, Thanks for this sub-commentary of BB's. I don't actually see any further definition of 'luminous' in the quote, only an assertion that it does not refer to an external or permanent mind of any sort. I do appreciate any commentaries on this subject, and enjoyed reading it. Also wondering what happened to Suan's 'sub-sub-commentary'. Suan, are you out there?? I'm waiting with some attachment for your comments....... Regards, Robert Ep. ================ --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Ken O and Rob Ep, > > Jon just pointed out a note by B.Bodhi at the back of his anthology from > Anguttara Nikaya (p.278, note 13) which gives his own quite neat summary > of the meaning of Luminous (pabhassaram) in the suttas we've discussed so > much. I think this pretty much accords with what some of us have been > saying and quoting. (Note AA refers to the commentary): > > "Luminous (pabhassaram). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers to > the bhavanga-citta, the "life-continuum" or underlying stream of > consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, most > notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred > and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process which, in > later Buddhist literature, is called javana, "impulsion". AA says that > the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhavanga, but they > 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. the fact that this expression > "luminous mind" does not signify any "eternal and pure mind-essence" is > evident for the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be extremely > fleeting and transitory. the "uninstructed worldling" (assutavaa > puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the dhamma and training > in its practice." > > (I would just question the comment about 'in later Buddhist > literature'...) > > Ken O, you also asked someone to check w/ K.Sujin about bhavanga cittas > being pabhassaram (luminous) in hell realms or animal realms. She > confirmed that this must be so (i.e. they are always pbhassaram). I > understand this is because they are not yet affected by the defilements. > > Btw, a few people have been commenting on your long holiday from > dsg....hope you're back for a while and have had a happy family Chinese > New Year in Singapore. How about a nice family photo in the dsg photo > album as a New Year gift to us all??? > > Best wishes, > Sarah > ================================== > > > > 11363 From: smallchap Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 0:56am Subject: Hi Hi, Dhamma Friends, Chance upon this forum through Nibbana.com forum. Have been practising meditation for many years. Hope to become wiser through reading your discussions. I don't talk much. So will remain as a passive member. Smallchap 11364 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Hi Howard, I would like to make a short comment, which by no means would be comprehensive enough to even begin to address the topics. If you take a short look at the summary of patthana [the book of conditions in the abhidhamma tipitaka], http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf you will see that for a dhamma [reality] to arise (even for something as "simple" as seeing), there are many dhammas (both extant and no longer extant) involved. For extant dhammas, there are the visible object, the seeing consciousness, its accompanying cetasikas, and the eye base, (and probably others that I have missed). For examples of no-longer-extant dhammas, there are kamma done previously and the previous, already fallen away citta. These dhammas condition one another in so many different ways that the relationship links (if you draw a graph) between them can be said to be explosive. I have no doubt that what you said in the latter case (of what it means to be conditioned) is closer to realities. What arises now conditions what is co-arising, what immediately arises subsequently, and what arises after (and well into the rest of samsara). Although I think only the buddha can really say [by way of well-rounded, total, and direct penetration, in every aspects, whereas we are just thinking] what are the exact conditions of the dhamma rising now, we can (obviously) say that the dhamma arising now is the manifestation of the complete culmination of its immensely complex conditions. When there is kusala rising now, it is the culmination of all those conditions, which may include the dhamma that has been heard previously and/or wise consideration of what is heard, but it also includes all the consciousness and mental factors that are arising now. A. Sujin said that (stronger) panna rises from (weaker) panna: panna doesn't rise out of ignorance (and no wisdom). I interpret this to be involving many different conditions involving panna. The most prominent would be hearing the dhamma from a wise friend (panna at the hearing level), considering what has already been heard or not heard (panna at the thinking level), and the actual realization of the dhamma (panna rising understanding the actual, present or close to present, characteristics of the dhamma). On the other hand, being able to hear the dhammas and being associated with a wise friend are the results of good deeds in the past, one that may even involve panna. Being able to understand the dhamma in this life would be attributed to having a good rebirth (with all the alobha, adosa, and amoha, which are the bases that allow the panna to grow) which are definitely a result of good deed done with panna in previous lives. If you understand how complex these conditions are, you can get a glimpse of why dhamma is considered (by some) to be uncontrollable, why it is relatively difficult for panna to arise, and why developing panna is necessarily a slow process which requires lifetimes of development (4 aeons 100,000 kappas for the Buddha, 1 aeons 100,000 kappas for Sariputta, 100,000 kappas for Ananda, and probably less than 100,000 kappas for the rest of us, if conditions allow it.) kom ps: When I first had a bit of understanding of how complex conditions are, I sort of equate it with studying the weather. You know different factors condition one another, but you are not really quite sure how the result is going to be because it depends on so many conditions. Weather is obviously anatta too... ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 8:37 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions > > > Hi all - > > A brief question: It is said that no > condition arises from a single > condition, but from the coming together of > conditions. A technical question > would then be "What is it that constitutes the > 'coming together' of > conditions?" From the Abhidhammic perspective, at > any point there is the > discernment of a single object together with a > variety of accompanying > functions, all associated with that same object. > Does this mean, then, that > from the Abhidhammic perspective, of the > conditions which come together, only > one act of discernment of an object is included, > with the other conditions > being the cetasikas? Or, is it multiple > mindstates, involving the discernment > of several objects, which are the conditions that > "come together", resulting > in the arising of a new condition? This latter > proposition seems to me to be > more in step with the Dhamma as a whole. In which > case, what restrictions on > mindstates, what interrelationships among them in > time, proximity, and > content, are required to consider that they "come > together". > > With metta, > Howard 11365 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] three rounds and a glimpse of nibbana Nina I thought you might be interested in these brief (and rough) recollections from the discussions last weekend on the meaning of sacca-nana and kicca-nana as 'rounds' of the Four Noble Truths (raised by Jaran, as I recall). Sacca-nana: Of the first Noble Truth, is firm intellectual understanding of the fact that everything is dhammas, namas and rupas; appreciation of the importance of this fact. Of the 2nd Noble Truth, means that attachment is seen as the cause of suffering. Attachment here includes attachment to wrong practice, since while there is the wrong idea about practice the natural development of understanding is not possible. Of the 3rd Noble Truth, means understanding that everything must have an end, that there is the possibility of extinction, since otherwise it would not be possible for ignorance to be eradicated. Of the 4th Noble Truth, means firm understanding that this only is the path, firm understanding of the difference between right view and wrong view, and of the first 3 Noble Truths. Kicca-nana: Any direct awareness of a nama or rupa is kicca-nana of all 4 Noble Truths. Hope this is of interest. Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Num, Jon, Sarah, Jaran and others, > It is difficult to understand all 12 factors , and in particular how the > round of sacca ~naa.na, knowledge of the truth, and kicca ~naa,na, > knowledge > of the task relate to nibbana when one has not attained enlightenment. I > tried to think these matters over and would appreciate input from > others. > These are no statements, "just my own thoughts". > 11366 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I'll try to briefly answer the heart of what I believe you are > asking > me in the following. I agree that the cultivation of calm, ALONE, could > be > practiced for lifetime after lifetime without liberation resulting. It > is, as > you say, only a part of the practice, and far from sufficient. But the > Buddha > incorporated into his practice many already extant practices when he > deemed > them important. (In fact, in at least one sutta he said something to the > > effect that whatever is conducive to liberation is part of his > teaching.) In > any case, as an example, in the Majjhima Nikaya, the the number of times > that > mastering the first four jhanas is urged by the Buddha probably exceeds > any > other individual teaching. I don't understand why there is resistance to > this > part of the teaching by you and some others. I believe the difference between us, Howard, is not that I have some innate resistance to the idea of samatha development, but that I have after careful consideration come to a different understanding of the texts on the role of samatha in the Buddha's teaching on vipassana. (Actually, my innately-held views are pretty much the same as everyone else's -- mostly wrong, according to a true view of the teachings!!) As I'm sure you'll agree, the role of samatha in the teachings cannot be discerned simply from how frequently it is mentioned, but only by finding out exactly what is being said about it. Without a correct reading on this, one will inevitably be on the wrong track. Just as an example, a reference to samatha bhavana occurring in a talk to monks who are already skilled in the practice of samatha may well carry a different import than a similar reference occurring in a talk given to, say, lay people with no apparent background in samatha. Much depends I think on the previously discussed question of 'descriptive vs. prescriptive' interpretations. I think it's crucial to discern whether in a given instance the Buddha saying 'if your situation is X, then Y is what may be done' or whether he is saying 'everyone should do X, and then they will be able to do Y'. Personally, I don't consider an understanding based on this sort of inquiry to be resistance, even if it runs counter to the generally accepted view. > As far as my characterization of the Satipatthana Sutta as a > "training > manual" rather than as a purely descriptive work, all I can say is that > this > is totally obvious to me. However, I understand that the opposite is > totally > obvious to you! So we will just have to "agree to disagree" on this one. Hmm, hardly your usual spirited reply, Howard! > Another, more general issue, it seems, on which we shall have to "agree > to > disagree" is that of applying effort to engage in specific practices in > order > to cultivate various factors. You seem to see this as either unimportant > or > impossible. I see the not making of an effort to engage in specific > cultivational practices as leaving one in the position of any > non-practitioner, and, by default, tossed about on the waves of desire > and > aversion - led by craving and ignorance, a helpless victim of past kamma > and > accumulations. I do understand that you do not see it that way. Again, any position I take on this subject represents my best reading of the texts, putting aside as far as possible any views of my own (for reasons given above). My primary concern here is to understand the texts, since I believe they hold the key to right understanding. In this spirit, let me say again that references in the texts to right effort are not, on my reading of the texts, references to volitional effort, since this interpretation doesn't fit with other aspects of the teaching in the texts. > With metta, > Howard (Your post follows without further comment.) One point in my post that I'm a little disappointed you did not pick up on was my comment regarding anyone who was making effort to have kusala, or was developing the jhanas, *before* the Buddha's enlightenment. It seems to be a necessary corollary of your interpretation of the Noble Eightfold Path that such people were in fact developing the path factors of right effort or right concentration, and that similarly at least 6 of the 8 path factors (i.e., excluding only samma ditthi and samma sati at most) were capable of development, and were in fact being developed, even before the Buddha's enlightenment and teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path. (But I'm happy to leave this for discussion on another occasion(?)) Jon 11367 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > I don't know enough about the teachings of other traditions to > comment, > > but with respect Rob, I don't think the pronouncements you mention > should > > carry any weight in coming to a conclusion (if one felt the need to do > > so). > > Hi Jon. > The only conclusion I guess one would want to come to is 'how to > practice or put > into practice' the Buddha's teachings in order to reach the end of > suffering. > > Anyway, thanks for at least trying to answer my questions. > > Best, > Robert Ep. I may not have been clear in my answer. What I meant was that pronouncements of self-enlightenment do not carry any weight as far as coming to a conclusion on whether the person has indeed attained enlightenment, assuming we felt the need to come to any conclusion on that score at all anyway (the implication being that I can see no benefit in trying to come to a conclusion on that question -- I happen not to believe that someone can know this about another, absent special powers, perhaps). Sorry that you felt that my answers were not useful (not my intention). Please follow up if you wish, as I am always happy to explain my position better. Jon 11368 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Rob Ep The question you have formulated is a good one, Rob: if there is no practice, only the arising of discernment or understanding, brought on by the concordance of factors, what is a person to do or understand in order to accord with or bring about those conditions? The answer is there to be found in the suttas. On many, many occasions the importance is stressed of meeting the right person, hearing the true dhamma, reflecting on what one has heard and relating it to the present moment. We can hear this many times and yet not grasp its significance. The reason for that, it seems to me (and speaking from experience), is that we have strongly held innate ideas about practice as being something quite different, something that is not consistent with such a subtle ('softly, softly') approach. You will notice that these factors are not so much things *to be done* as we normally understand that expression, but nor on the other hand are they things that can *just happen*. The factors can only take hold in one who has some inkling of the danger and unsatisfactoriness in attachment and, most of all, in ignorance as the ultimate 'baddie', and who has some idea of the importance of developing understanding as the means of overcoming that attachment and ignorance. Again, there's no need to intellectualise too much about how this is all going to have its effect. There can be useful reflection about the dhamma and its relation to the present moment at any time, even as one reads posts. And asking pertinent questions (which is something you excel at) is also given in the texts as being a key asset. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > Give the clarifications below, which I read as you saying that there > basically is > no practice, there is only the arising of discernment or understanding, > brought on > by the concordance of factors, what is the practitioner given to do or > understand > in order to accord with or bring about those conditions? Or does it in > fact have > nothing to do with the practitioner and there is basically nothing to > do. If one > studies the suttas, that is because the conditions have arisen to cause > this, and > one cannot decide to study them, or refrain from studying them. The > conditions > will make the decision. Or is there something that we are in fact > called upon to > do in order to create the proper environment for these conditions to > arise? > > Best, > Robert Ep. 11369 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Dear Smallchap, Many thanks for making your presence known. I'm sure we all hope you'll enjoy reading the posts and find some points for wise reflection. --- smallchap wrote: > Hi, Dhamma Friends, > > Chance upon this forum through Nibbana.com forum. Have been > practising meditation for many years. Hope to become wiser through > reading your discussions. I don't talk much. So will remain as a > passive member. That's fine of course, but the occasional question or comment or even objection to what we say will help encourage us all too;-) I hope we get to know you a little more, such as where you live, too. Meanwhile, thanks again for saying 'hi' and welcome from us all. Sarah ====== 11370 From: small chap Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Dear Sarah, Thank you for your kind words. >I hope we get to know you a little more, such as where you live, too. I am a male Chinese Singaporean. Have been practising meditation irregularly for about 20 years and still learning. Smallchap 11371 From: srnsk Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. Hi Christine and Sarah, Thanks for sharing your kusala time and experience with us. I really smiled and luaghed with your mails. I am really admire your viriya (energy), Christine. Seeing an example of good friends (kalayanamitta) is also uplifting. Let me anumodhana with you guys. As I see it, and as I heard before, panna is the leading factor in all parami. Dana, sila, viriya, ... without a conducting of panna can go completely opposite way. It's not the "I" who do this. Anumodhana. Num 11372 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:03am Subject: India Ch 3, no. 2 India Ch 3, no. 2 When we cling to concepts we misinterprete realities and take them as a unity. We take a compact mass or collection of things as something that exists, such as a table or a chair. We join different objects, such as visible object or tangible object, into a whole but they appear one at a time, through different doorways. What we take for a whole can be resolved by paññå into different elements which arise and fall away. We also take different cittas performing their different functions for a ³whole², such as seeing and thinking. We believe that there is a long moment of seeing, that it lasts. We have to think of concepts so that we can perform our daily activities. Also the Buddha used concepts when he went out on his alms rounds, when he recognized his disciples and spoke to different people. However, he did not cling to concepts and he had no ignorance about them. We should lead our daily life naturally, but we can learn the difference between concepts and realities, dhammas. Acharn Sujin said that when seeing sees visible object, a concept does not arise together with seeing, but after seeing has fallen away, thinking can arise with a concept as object. We pay attention to concepts time and again, but we can learn to develop more understanding of a reality such as visible object appearing right now. We can learn to understand it as only a dhamma, not a person or thing that exists. Gradually we can know the difference between what is real and what is not real in the ultimate sense. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings²(IV, Sal åyattana vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, § 78, Rådha, 3): Then the venerable Rådha came to the Exalted One... Seated at one side the venerable Rådha said to the Exalted One: - ³Well for me, lord, if the Exalted One would teach me a teaching in brief, hearing which I might dwell remote and earnest, ardent and aspiring.² ³What is non-self, Rådha, -for that you must abandon desire. And what is non-self, Rådha? The eye... visible objects... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... that pleasant or unpleasant or indifferent feeling, which arises owing to eye-contact. What is non-self, you must abandon desire for that. Tongue... body... mind... mental objects... mind-consciousness... mind-contact... you must abandon desire for all that.² Time and again the Buddha spoke about realities appearing through the six doorways so that people could develop understanding of their true nature of impermanence and anattå. Usually we live in the world of concepts and stories about life, but when understanding of dhammas such as seeing, visible object or feeling has been developed more, the concept of the whole world, a person, a body, can be broken down, resolved into elements. Then we learn that what we find so important are only insignificant dhammas that arise and fall away, which are non-self. When we read a Sutta about dhammas appearing through the six doorways we can be reminded to deeply consider its meaning: seeing, hearing or feeling appear time and again, even now. They are realities each with their own distinct nature and characteristic.The Buddha said that one must abandon desire for all realities. Understanding, paññå, is associated with a level of detachment: the development of paññå leads to detachment from the idea of self and eventually from all realities. 11373 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] sharing food op 18-02-2002 06:32 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: > I am reading your Dhamma in Cambodia. It's a great food as well. In Ch.III, > you mentioned the Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. From what I have read the > samma-padhana, 4 right efforts, consists of 1) the avoidance of akusala > states as yet unarisen 2) the overcoming of akusala states already arisen 3) > the development of kusala states as yet unarisen, and 4)the maintaining of > kusala states already arisen. There may be some discussion on this before, > but I am curious what it really means by 2) the overcoming of akusala states > already arisen. Akusala which has already arisen and then completely fallen > away, what to overcome?? So what does it mean by overcome sth which has > already arisen and gone? What has been done, is done. If it means for future > akusala, then it will have the meaning as 1). Nina: Dear Num, first of all, would you askyour aunt to explain to K. Kanchana that the translation from English into Thai can be very free. If it is literal it will not sound so good, because the structures of both languages are so different. I have the same matter to deal with when I translate from Thai into English. The second padhana: when you have dosa and you are about to speak an unpleasant word sati can arise and be aware of the dosa that has just fallen away as only a nama, not self, and prevent you from speaking such a word. Then there is the "guarding of the doorways", indriya samvara sila. When satipatthana arises there are conditions for the four padhanas. However only at the moment of enlightenment they have reached fulfillment. Jon has written a lot on the four samma-padhanas and explained that they are non-self. We may intellectually understand this, but... we still take them for mine, even though we do not notice this. So long as there is no direct awareness of nama and rupa it is difficult for us to understand the four samma-padhanas as only nama and the way they function. > >Num: Let me ask you another question from Silakhandhavagga, almost all 13 sutta > say about chulasila, machimasila, mahasila, indriyasavara(which is all about > ayatana), satisampajanna, santosa, nivarana, 4 rupajhana and 8 vijja(6 > abhinna, lokiya-vipassana~n~nana (about knowing rupa and nama dhamma) and > then lokuttara ~n~nana). I think this whole vagga is pretty explicit about > developing satipatthana/pannna in daily life. One sutta also mentions that > sila and panna cannot be separated, where there is panna, there is sila, and > vice versa. I am a little curious why only the rupajhana is mentioned in the > suttas, not including the arupajhana? Nina: I do not know the passage referred to, and I know nothing about jhanas, therefore I cannot answer this. It is beyond my scope. There can be sila without panna, someone can observe precepts without panna, but when there is vipassana panna, there is indriya samvara sila. Paying respect or helping is included in sila. These can be performed with panna or without it. There may be often paying respect or helping with an idea of self who does so. It is good if this can be realized. Best wishes, from Nina. > 11374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] three rounds and a glimpse of nibbana op 20-02-2002 13:44 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > I thought you might be interested in these brief (and rough) recollections > from the discussions last weekend on the meaning of sacca-nana and > kicca-nana as 'rounds' of the Four Noble Truths (raised by Jaran, as I > recall). > > Sacca-nana: > Of the first Noble Truth, is firm intellectual understanding of the fact > that everything is dhammas, namas and rupas; appreciation of the > importance of this fact. > > Of the 2nd Noble Truth, means that attachment is seen as the cause of > suffering. Attachment here includes attachment to wrong practice, since > while there is the wrong idea about practice the natural development of > understanding is not possible. > > Of the 3rd Noble Truth, means understanding that everything must have an > end, that there is the possibility of extinction, since otherwise it would > not be possible for ignorance to be eradicated. > > Of the 4th Noble Truth, means firm understanding that this only is the > path, firm understanding of the difference between right view and wrong > view, and of the first 3 Noble Truths. > > Kicca-nana: > Any direct awareness of a nama or rupa is kicca-nana of all 4 Noble > Truths. > Dear Jonothan, this is most helpful. I think that we first have to understand intellectually that everything is dhamma, that is, non-self, before dhammas can be understood as impermanent and thus dukkha? The word dukkha is not used in: everything is dhamma. What do you think? It must amount to the same , but it is not quite clear. Nina. 11375 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. Hi Num, Thanks for your post .... time to settle down again, and use the energy more constructively :-) I'm starting to study the Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of Views - Bhikkhu Bodhi. That should keep me quiet for a while .... a considerable while, by the looks. (All I ask is - please don't let me find that I hold ALL of the erroneous views ....) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "srnsk" wrote: > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > Thanks for sharing your kusala time and experience with us. I really > smiled and luaghed with your mails. I am really admire your viriya > (energy), Christine. Seeing an example of good friends (kalayanamitta) > is also uplifting. Let me anumodhana with you guys. > > As I see it, and as I heard before, panna is the leading factor in all > parami. Dana, sila, viriya, ... without a conducting of panna can go > completely opposite way. It's not the "I" who do this. > > Anumodhana. > > Num 11376 From: Victor Yu Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Ken, These five aggregates are not what I am. Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Ong" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) > Hi Victor > > Could we put in the perspective that all beings are the five aggregates > and in this view is not consider there is a denial of self or beings. I > think Buddhaghosa may not be too explicit in his meaning that there is no > self or being. He may just considered them as aggregates. > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > > ---Dear Lucy, Howard, Victor and all, > > Thanks for your comments. Great to see you considering so carefully > > Lucy, in your posts. > > > > Victor, > > Thanks for carrying on the points you brought up on D-l. > > I'll just repeat them here as they give extra details. You noted that > > you disagree with the Visuddhimagga and find that Buddhaghosa was > > holding to an extreme view in his denial of self and being. I found > > this interesting as my letters were in responses to Buddhadasa of > > Thailand who thought that the Visuddhimagga and Buddhaghosa went to > > the opposite extreme and implied a self. 11377 From: michael newton Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. Hello!Christine; Could you send me Bhikkhu Bodhi's email address(if you've got it) I was a monk ordained by his teacher by Ven,Ananda Maitreya,his teacher,at Balangoda,but now I'm disrobed.I always admired Bhikkhu Bodhi,his depth of practice and knowledge.Thank's to this dhamma study group,I'm reconnecting with my past that was so rich and rewarding and now feel it's always there,but just hadn't seen it lately.Thank's to the world wide web,I've met others i used to know.Khun Sujin,Nina,and Sarah. I've recently connected with Ven.Sravista Dhammika,Australian monk,now living in Singapore,but travels to India,Sri Lanka,and Euope most recently.Downloaded some of his online PDF FILES.He's most recent work is"Good Questions,Good Answers".His email address is pitijoy@y.... MAY ALL BEINGS BE HAPPY,YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL NEWTON >From: "christine_forsyth" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:14:38 -0000 > >Hi Num, > >Thanks for your post .... time to settle down again, and use the >energy more constructively :-) >I'm starting to study the Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of >Views - Bhikkhu Bodhi. That should keep me quiet for a while .... a >considerable while, by the looks. (All I ask is - please don't let me >find that I hold ALL of the erroneous views ....) > >metta, >Christine > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "srnsk" wrote: > > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > > > Thanks for sharing your kusala time and experience with us. I >really > > smiled and luaghed with your mails. I am really admire your viriya > > (energy), Christine. Seeing an example of good friends >(kalayanamitta) > > is also uplifting. Let me anumodhana with you guys. > > > > As I see it, and as I heard before, panna is the leading factor in >all > > parami. Dana, sila, viriya, ... without a conducting of panna can >go > > completely opposite way. It's not the "I" who do this. > > > > Anumodhana. > > > > Num > > > > 11378 From: srnsk Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sharing food Dear Nina, << Dear Num, first of all, would you askyour aunt to explain to K. Kanchana that the translation from English into Thai can be very free. If it is literal it will not sound so good, because the structures of both languages are so different. I have the same matter to deal with when I translate from Thai into English.>> Yes, I will tell my aunt when I talk to her next time. I forgot to ask her about the topics discussed in the lecturer discussion, will try to ask her next time. <> Hmm, from your explanation, I still count that as 1) to prevent future akusala to arise, not 2). I also think of pakatupanissayapaccaya as a factor for the future akusala. For me, personally, I think this (2) means to discard whatever akusala actions we have already committed as not self, not ours and to move on. Kind of do not regret (kuccucca) for what have already been done. I may like to analyze but I agree that at the moment of satipatthana there is samma-viriya in there, no matter how we call or classify it. <> The pairing of sila and panna is from Sonadanda-sutta, sutta # 4 in silakhandhavagga. I agree with you that when there is panna, there is sila but not always vice versa. I know nothing about jhana either. I always ask my aunt, do I need to know how many planes of existence are there, should I read about jhana at all because I personally do not care much about it. I do not know about next life, the minute moment of vithicitta and definitely know nothing about nibbana. I mean all I know about those is from reading. From reading I know a lot of new names and vocabularies. I can think, analyze and memorize them with some difficulties but kind of understandable (intellectually not intuitively). I agree that dhamma, here and now, is provable and can be studied. She told me that listening and reading more even in pariyatti level is useful and can be a source for future yonisomanasikara and panna but without patipatti, it can be misleading or fruitless. The goal of listening and reading are not just to memorize, but to see and understand the truth, the 4 noble truths. To me, I see pariyatti and patipatti as the same thing, not completely separated. Again, as I see it, understanding is the key, not a wish or clinging to get a result. I find out that the tipitaka is pretty much talking about the reality and truths in our bodies, here and now. I enjoy reading Dhamma in Cambodia a lot. Thanks and appreciate. Num 11379 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Jon - .... > To say a drop more, I've pasted below part of the > Mahasatipatthana > Sutta (from the Digha Nikaya) to which I add a comment or two: I’d like to follow up on a slightly different aspect of this discussion. In my previous reply to this post I pointed out how in the Satipatthana Sutta the Noble Eightfold Path is given as a ‘mind-object’ to be known as it really is. Specifically, as regards the Four Noble Truths, the sutta says: ‘A monk abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in respect of the Four Noble Truths. How does he do so? Here, a monk knows as it really is: “This is suffering”; he knows as it really is: “This is the origin of suffering”; he knows as it really is: “This is the cessation of suffering”; he knows as it really is: “This is the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering.” The last of these (the 4th Noble Truth) is of course the Noble Eightfold Path. I believe you see the Noble Eightfold Path as a series of separately occurring factors to be developed individually (now right effort, now right concentration, now right view etc). It's not clear to me how, under such a scenario, the *path-as-comprising-all-8-factors* could ever be a ‘mind-object’, that is to say, the object of a single moment of consciousness, capable of being ‘known as it really is’. (It could of course be an object of thinking, as a concept – but concepts have no quality (sabhava) by which they can be known as they really are). If, on the other hand, the Noble Eightfold Path is understood to be a moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga citta) comprising all 8 factors arising together, then that moment (or a moment of mundane insight comprising 5 of the same factors) can clearly be ‘known as it really is’. My point is, then, that the inclusion of the Noble Eightfold Path as one of the mind-objects of satipatthana supports the interpretation of the Path as describing a single moment of consciousness, rather than as separately occurring factors to be developed individually. Such a moment can accurately be described in terms of the description of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path contained in the passage from the sutta (your post below). Jon > "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with > > regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the > cessation > of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the > cessation of stress: This is called right view. "And what is right > resolve? > Aspiring to renunciation, to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: > This is > called right resolve. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, > from > divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is > called > right speech. "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, > from > stealing, & from sexual intercourse. This is called right action. "And > what > is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble > ones, > having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right > livelihood: This is called right livelihood. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The preceding could be taken either descriptively or > prescriptively, > although 'abstaining' usually suggests intentional action. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates > desire, > endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake > of > the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet > arisen... for > the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have > arisen... > for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet > arisen... > (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, & > culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right > > effort. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The expressions 'generates desire', 'endeavors', 'arouses, > upholds & > exerts his intent' strike me as unambigiously indicating intentional > effort. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains > focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- > putting > aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused > on > feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > qualities in > & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & > distress > with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness. "And what > is > right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn > from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & > remains > in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied > by > directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & > evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure > born > of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & > evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains > in > equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters > & > remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous > & > mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure > & > pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he > enters & > remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, > neither > pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The definition here of what constitutes "right concentration" > strikes > me as rather clear and unambiguous. Moreover, it constitutes a > relatively > large part of the sutta. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > "This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the > cessation of stress. > ================================= > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a > bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, > a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 11380 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computers and dhammas Rob Ep I can see you are giving some careful thought to this. It is not easy to grasp, but very worthwhile persevering with. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > Yes, I can make that distinction. If I look at the computer, the > computer as it > appears at the moment [not calling it a computer but just what I see] is > a rupa. > It clearly is 'just there', isn't taking 'another object' as its own. > > If I think about what it is, then that computer is the object of that > thought. > That thought has computer as its object. That thought is a nama. > In a very colloquial, inaccurate sense, a nama is a thought, and a rupa > is an object. Just a comment on a particular part of this: > That thought has computer as its object. That thought is a nama. > In a very colloquial, inaccurate sense, a nama is a thought, and a rupa > is an object. I suggest it is thinking that has thought/concept (in this case, of computer) as its object. Thinking is a mental activity, the nature of which is to conceptualise (think); thoughts are the currency of that conceptualisation, and the object of that mental activity. Now in our example, the thinking of the thought/concept of ‘computer’ is conditioned by, or based on, certain experiences through the sense-doors (seeing, touching, etc) that precede the thinking (and also of course on recollections of previous sense-door experiences). Another way of saying this is that the realities that comprise the object we take for computer are experienced through the sense-doors initially, by way of seeing, touching etc., and it is by conceptualising about these sense-door experiences that the thought/concept of a computer arises. In terms of dhammas/realities: -- The consciousness experiencing the visible aspect of (what we take for) computer is nama, and its object is the rupa of visible data -- The thinking/conceptualising about ‘computer’ is also nama, and its object is the thought/concept of computer. Since we are exchanging ideas, we are using concepts (words), but the concepts refer to realities that can be directly experienced at the present moment. However, a correct intellectual grasp of what is real/not real (dhamma/not dhamma) at the present moment is essential. Jon 11381 From: Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Hi, Kom - Thank you for a thoughtful and detailed reply. Much of value here - thanks. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/20/02 4:04:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, tikmok@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I would like to make a short comment, which by no means > would be comprehensive enough to even begin to address the > topics. > > If you take a short look at the summary of patthana [the > book of conditions in the abhidhamma tipitaka], > http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf > you will see that for a dhamma [reality] to arise (even for > something as "simple" as seeing), there are many dhammas > (both extant and no longer extant) involved. For extant > dhammas, there are the visible object, the seeing > consciousness, its accompanying cetasikas, and the eye base, > (and probably others that I have missed). For examples of > no-longer-extant dhammas, there are kamma done previously > and the previous, already fallen away citta. These dhammas > condition one another in so many different ways that the > relationship links (if you draw a graph) between them can be > said to be explosive. > > I have no doubt that what you said in the latter case (of > what it means to be conditioned) is closer to realities. > What arises now conditions what is co-arising, what > immediately arises subsequently, and what arises after (and > well into the rest of samsara). > > Although I think only the buddha can really say [by way of > well-rounded, total, and direct penetration, in every > aspects, whereas we are just thinking] what are the exact > conditions of the dhamma rising now, we can (obviously) say > that the dhamma arising now is the manifestation of the > complete culmination of its immensely complex conditions. > > When there is kusala rising now, it is the culmination of > all those conditions, which may include the dhamma that has > been heard previously and/or wise consideration of what is > heard, but it also includes all the consciousness and mental > factors that are arising now. > > A. Sujin said that (stronger) panna rises from (weaker) > panna: panna doesn't rise out of ignorance (and no wisdom). > I interpret this to be involving many different conditions > involving panna. The most prominent would be hearing the > dhamma from a wise friend (panna at the hearing level), > considering what has already been heard or not heard (panna > at the thinking level), and the actual realization of the > dhamma (panna rising understanding the actual, present or > close to present, characteristics of the dhamma). > > On the other hand, being able to hear the dhammas and being > associated with a wise friend are the results of good deeds > in the past, one that may even involve panna. Being able to > understand the dhamma in this life would be attributed to > having a good rebirth (with all the alobha, adosa, and > amoha, which are the bases that allow the panna to grow) > which are definitely a result of good deed done with panna > in previous lives. > > If you understand how complex these conditions are, you can > get a glimpse of why dhamma is considered (by some) to be > uncontrollable, why it is relatively difficult for panna to > arise, and why developing panna is necessarily a slow > process which requires lifetimes of development (4 aeons > 100,000 kappas for the Buddha, 1 aeons 100,000 kappas for > Sariputta, 100,000 kappas for Ananda, and probably less than > 100,000 kappas for the rest of us, if conditions allow it.) > > kom > > > ps: > When I first had a bit of understanding of how complex > conditions are, I sort of equate it with studying the > weather. You know different factors condition one another, > but you are not really quite sure how the result is going to > be because it depends on so many conditions. Weather is > obviously anatta too... ;-) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 8:37 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions > > > > > > Hi all - > > > > A brief question: It is said that no > > condition arises from a single > > condition, but from the coming together of > > conditions. A technical question > > would then be "What is it that constitutes the > > 'coming together' of > > conditions?" From the Abhidhammic perspective, at > > any point there is the > > discernment of a single object together with a > > variety of accompanying > > functions, all associated with that same object. > > Does this mean, then, that > > from the Abhidhammic perspective, of the > > conditions which come together, only > > one act of discernment of an object is included, > > with the other conditions > > being the cetasikas? Or, is it multiple > > mindstates, involving the discernment > > of several objects, which are the conditions that > > "come together", resulting > > in the arising of a new condition? This latter > > proposition seems to me to be > > more in step with the Dhamma as a whole. In which > > case, what restrictions on > > mindstates, what interrelationships among them in > > time, proximity, and > > content, are required to consider that they "come > > together". > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11382 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. Dear Chris, I hope you're catching up on the much needed rest and that all the reflections are helping with the hospital and chores;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > But events outside my control threw some completely different > questions onto the table. Some sad events in the days before I was > to travel, caused a dear one emotional and mental pain, and put the > trip in doubt for a while. > So, there was no well prepared list of questions....just an intense > feeling about the fragility of life, the preciousness and finiteness > of time, and the need to use both wisely. Thoughts were filled with > death/kamma, attachment/dukkha, and anatta/no-control.......it's one > thing to read about, discuss and try to understand these topics, > considering them at a safe distance, but it is quite another to have > them crash through the imaginary safety barrier surrounding ones' own > family. Chris, I'm thinking it may be useful for everyone (inc. perhaps your family?), if you were to give some brief details about the 'events' you refer to and then make a few comments on what you heard or read that was helpful in terms of both your understanding and also in assisting others. I'd be interested, for one, to hear and will happily 'chip' in if there is anything I can add usefully. > It was the attachment/dukkha link pointed out by one friend and > discussed with others, that resulted in a growth in understanding > for me, and a tentative beginning of discussing Dhamma with family > members. Reading the chapters on Lobha in Ninas' books 'Cetasikas', > and 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' was an 'education' , particularly when > I had the tragic incident and everyones' reactions (mine included) to > reflect on.....and Lobha is everywhere even in seemingly tiny, > previously unconsidered and insignificant things.......and it hides > under different names.....(it's much more serious and pervasive than > I had realised before). Can you elaborate on any of these comments - the Dhamma w/family members, the 'education', the reflections on 'reactions', and the pervasive nature of lobha. (Just in your own time - no hurry at all;-)) > As to what I learned this time - I'm not sure I can articulate it > exactly yet, .......... need a while (firstly to sleep) and then to > process and reflect on events, and the formal (and, equally > valuable, informal) discussions. I know how you feel.... > I definitely learned more about all of the topics mentioned above, > as well as understanding a little more the difference > between 'thinking' and 'seeing this moment and having awareness of > this moment' - plus something (new to me) about the attributes of > compassion (not always overtly warm and fuzzy), This would be interesting to hear more about too... (Now I'm sounding 'greedy' as Ken O would say;-)) > and the power of > kilesas and accumulations to strongly influence or even 'take > control' of our behaviour. Perhaps the close correlation between idea of self and control is more apparent now? Again, I think these points would be useful for us all to consider if and when you feel like starting the ball rolling. Chris, it sounds like about half a dozen posts I've asked for, but I know you'll just add your comments in your own time and delightful way. Maybe this is my response to being 'forced' to explain away our night-time exploits to all these good people;-) Sarah =================================================== > 11383 From: Michael Newton Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Smallchap, > > Many thanks for making your presence known. I'm sure > we all hope you'll > enjoy reading the posts and find some points for > wise reflection. > > --- smallchap wrote: > Hi, > Dhamma Friends, > > > > Chance upon this forum through Nibbana.com forum. > Have been > > practising meditation for many years. Hope to > become wiser through > > reading your discussions. I don't talk much. So > will remain as a > > passive member. > > That's fine of course, but the occasional question > or comment or even > objection to what we say will help encourage us all > too;-) I hope we get > to know you a little more, such as where you live, > too. > > Meanwhile, thanks again for saying 'hi' and welcome > from us all. > > Sarah > ====== > Hello!Sarah; Did you meet Ven.Srivasti Dhammika,from Australia?He was a good friend of Ven.Dhammadaro in Sri Lanka.Dhammika is still a monk and lives in Singapore,but travels,India,Sri Lanka,thailand,Malaysia,and Europe.He has written several pamphlets on Buddhism.One popular one is Good Questions,Good Answers and believe he met Nina,Khun Sujin,and was at talks in 1976 with us in Sri Lanka.Maybe,he he can get involved in group.(email addressis-pitijoy@y...) Michael 11384 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hi Victor Then what are you? If these five aggregates are not what you are, would you like to tell me what are you compose of. In the same way, that is how Buddhaghosa said that there is no being, bc that is not what they are. Is it the same as what you have said below. Be it conventional or ultimate definition, as you always also said "this is not I" is the basis for Buddhaghosa argument for no existence of beings. He is not here to defend for himself now, I believe he is not an extremist, to me, he is just stating a fact. Kind regards Ken O Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:22:19 -0500 From: "Victor Yu" Subject: Re: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Ken, These five aggregates are not what I am. Regards, Victor 11385 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminosity yet again! Hi Sarah, Actually I asked this question out of curiousity. Since beings in hell and other realms all have bhavanga cittas, hence luminious is applied to them too. I don't think my position is about an external pure mind essence, I dont think I have disagree with what is said in AA. What fathoms me is that why bavanga citta is used initially in the commentary to explain luminious citta then change to kusala cittas for development of the mind. To me as in my previous mail, it is not consistent. Nevertheless, till then, I do accept the commentary position. I not on holiday now, I am trying to be a lurker (he he :)). But sometimes the topic just too much for me not to say something. Hmm got to be more mindful of my tanha. Kind regards Ken O --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Ken O and Rob Ep, > > Jon just pointed out a note by B.Bodhi at the back of his anthology from > Anguttara Nikaya (p.278, note 13) which gives his own quite neat summary > of the meaning of Luminous (pabhassaram) in the suttas we've discussed > so > much. I think this pretty much accords with what some of us have been > saying and quoting. (Note AA refers to the commentary): > > "Luminous (pabhassaram). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers > to > the bhavanga-citta, the "life-continuum" or underlying stream of > consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, > most > notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred > and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process which, in > later Buddhist literature, is called javana, "impulsion". AA says that > the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhavanga, but they > 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. the fact that this expression > "luminous mind" does not signify any "eternal and pure mind-essence" is > evident for the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be > extremely > fleeting and transitory. the "uninstructed worldling" (assutavaa > puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the dhamma and > training > in its practice." > > (I would just question the comment about 'in later Buddhist > literature'...) > > Ken O, you also asked someone to check w/ K.Sujin about bhavanga cittas > being pabhassaram (luminous) in hell realms or animal realms. She > confirmed that this must be so (i.e. they are always pbhassaram). I > understand this is because they are not yet affected by the defilements. > > Btw, a few people have been commenting on your long holiday from > dsg....hope you're back for a while and have had a happy family Chinese > New Year in Singapore. How about a nice family photo in the dsg photo > album as a New Year gift to us all??? > > Best wishes, > Sarah > ================================== 11386 From: Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/20/02 8:45:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Jon - > .... > > To say a drop more, I've pasted below part of the > > Mahasatipatthana > > Sutta (from the Digha Nikaya) to which I add a comment or two: > > I’d like to follow up on a slightly different aspect of this discussion. > > In my previous reply to this post I pointed out how in the Satipatthana > Sutta the Noble Eightfold Path is given as a ‘mind-object’ to be known as > it really is. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand mind-objects to include thoughts, ideas, and concepts (as well as emotions, dispositions, etc) --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Specifically, as regards the Four Noble Truths, the sutta says: > ‘A monk abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in respect of > the Four Noble Truths. > How does he do so? > Here, a monk knows as it really is: “This is sufferingâ€?; > he knows as it really is: “This is the origin of sufferingâ€?; > he knows as it really is: “This is the cessation of sufferingâ€?; > he knows as it really is: “This is the way of practice leading to the > cessation of suffering.â€? > > The last of these (the 4th Noble Truth) is of course the Noble Eightfold > Path. > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is an idea, and it is contemplated as such, or so it seems to me. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe you see the Noble Eightfold Path as a series of separately > occurring factors to be developed individually (now right effort, now > right concentration, now right view etc). It's not clear to me how, under > such a scenario, the *path-as-comprising-all-8-factors* could ever be a > ‘mind-object’, that is to say, the object of a single moment of > consciousness, capable of being ‘known as it really is’. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Where in this sutta, or in any other, does it say anything about the path being contemplated in a single mind-moment? --------------------------------------------------------------------- (It could of> > course be an object of thinking, as a concept – but concepts have no > quality (sabhava) by which they can be known as they really are). > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The key word was 'contemplate', as in "contemplating mind-objects". To contemplate is to think about, mull over, analyze with the mind. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If, on the other hand, the Noble Eightfold Path is understood to be a > moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga citta) comprising all 8 > factors arising together, then that moment (or a moment of mundane insight > comprising 5 of the same factors) can clearly be ‘known as it really is’. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand it so. --------------------------------------------------------------- > > My point is, then, that the inclusion of the Noble Eightfold Path as one > of the mind-objects of satipatthana supports the interpretation of the > Path as describing a single moment of consciousness, rather than as > separately occurring factors to be developed individually. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not as I see it. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Such a moment can accurately be described in terms of the description of > the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path contained in the passage from the > sutta (your post below). > > Jon > ================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11387 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:44pm Subject: other trip to India "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Missed you all while in India and hope that nothing > will arise to keep me away next time you come to > Bangkok. But the next best thing will be to be able > to get copies of the tapes for the days you were > there. Hope they will give them to me. While a > feeling of deep regret for not having gone on the > Foundation's trip there back in October arose, it > quickly changed to acceptance for what circumstances > did arise. And although going with the group would > probably have helped me deal a lot better with what > I faced in that country, I did "bring home" a deeper > understanding of 3 points for which "I" needed > additional reminding: the insidious way in which > lobha and dhosa prevent panna from arising and how > much more difficult it is to study/learn dhamma in a > "woeful" lifetime. There also arose a keener > appreciation for the depth of emotion Lord Buddha > must have experienced upon facing the "real India" > when he came out of the protective confines of his > palace for the first time, before his enlightenment. > For the many in India, their lives must be surely > classified as a woeful existence, and yet it was > there that Lord Buddha began, or put in motion, the > "wheel" or path of the Dhamma. We each learn what is > needed at the right time and place, so these > "points" are probably what "I" needed to learn at > the time, given the vipaka arising at those times. > > India and all its color, sounds, smells, tastes and > other sensations were paccaya to cause what best can > be described in modern terms as sensory overload. > This lead to almost constant dhosa arising > throughout the trip. Hands flung into the face with > "How much will you pay for this?" and insistence on > an immediate answer, begging children, cow dung, > lepers (yes, there were a number of them also with > their wrapped hands and faces), crowds of moving > humanity, with never a moment of quiet to think or > contemplate, all came together in a "panic attack" > of sorts along the twisted lanes leading down to, > and back from, the ghats in Varanasi. Even thinking > the whole while that these constant sensations were > vipaka was not enough to alleviate the constant > dhosa arising, that dominated my thoughts. And > trying to "ignore" all of it, as a way of trying to > get those hawkers and beggars to leave me alone, was > also a form of dhosa too. It was also frustrating > (dhosa) never to have enough small change to give to > the beggars who were too pitiful for words. Perhaps > that is what the upper class Hindus do: they try to > ignore what goes on around them, find justification > for it in the caste system, and don't realize that > constant dhosa towards that which arises around them > leads them to run a government which does next to > nothing to try and alleviate somewhat the terrible > conditions because dhosa prevents it from finding a > way to best run its country. It is government > without dhamma (as are most world governments, to a > large extent). It puts forth the usual execuses: > overpopulation, etc., yet with Dhamma, understanding > could arise to how best to deal with the poverty. > > But, who am I to judge the Indian gov't? I had > constant dhosa all the time, so of course, I could > not see the reality either. But just when I would > think of all the sights being just color, the sounds > being just sound, etc., a hand or something to buy > was thrust in my face, breaking all thought. I never > could look "at the moment" either and be aware of > what reality was arising at the time; satipattana > never arose in India (for "me".) But an increasing > realization of just how difficult it would be to > study and understand dhamma under such circumstances > did arise, along with a greater appreciation and > understanding why an enlightened being, the Buddha, > would be born into such an environment and to later > teach the Dhamma there. What better place than India > to begin? with metta, Betty > _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 11388 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Sarah ("kusala" revisited) Dear Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > ...I am just so surprised to see you glossing "kusala" as "skillful"! ...and here you are putting me in the ‘hot’ seat;-) I'm not fooled by the 'Dear' heading......;-) Many thanks, nonetheless, for your instructive and useful comments. I hope this time that I’ve considered this issue more carefully and will add a few points from these reflections (in no special order). ********** 1. Any definitions of Pali terms tend to carry their own ‘baggage’ and the more one thinks about them, the more baggage they seem to carry. Other translations of ‘kusala’ certainly do, such as ‘wholesome’ (the bread and all), ‘pure’ (white lights and Pure Yoga now in Hong Kong!), ‘good’ (I’m always telling my stuedents to avoid good, bad and nice in essays), and ‘faultless’ (w/the opposite ‘faulty’ reminding me of ‘Fawlty Towers’ the John Cleese commedy). ..... 2. Even if we just use ‘kusala’ and some other Pali terms like ‘nama’ and ‘rupa’ and don’t translate further (as in Thailand), the baggage of micha ditthi still has a way of misinterpreting and understanding the terms according to its own agenda ..... 3. Usually when I write here, I’m thinking in terms of the Pali term for these words, but try to put a definition in brackets or delete the Pali if I’m writing to someone new to the list. To be honest, I don’t think too much about the translation and usually copy ones I’m used to using or ones that friends I respect are used to using ..... 4. I think that as Nina mentioned in one of her recent letters or articles (India?), we shouldn’t be attached or too concerned about labels or terms in that they are merely ways of referring to realities to be known. As we know, we have to hear a lot more details about any of these terms before they are really understood at all. ..... 5.. > Last winter, I explicitly used "skillful" when the conversation would > steer uncomfortably close to anatta -- something that people are more > loathe to accept than even the moral/immoral/amoral triplet! Actually, I had no idea at all about your hidden agenda here..Very interesting indeed;-) Of course, now I know, I’ll be on the lookout for others with the same bag of tricks. I’d honestly never thought of this implication before this post of yours. ..... 6.> I confess my subversive intent in using "skillful" back then. I > thought (and probably wrote) things like: "These guys talk about > anatta too much and over-emphasize Right View instead of balancing it > with talk about the other parts of the path, like Right Effort." Of > course, much of the time I was thinking about conventional effort > (despite the fact that I thought I was talking about Right Effort). I > was delighted when I stumbled onto the "skillful" gloss for "kusala" > because I could use it in my quest to steer the conversation back to > the more comfortable realm of mistaking conventional effort for Right > Effort and of making it easier to stay firmly rooted in sakaya-ditthi > [personality view]. Now Sarah is doing the same thing (albeit, > unintentionally). Yes, quite unintentional and I have no idea if others have the same ‘subversive intent’ Dan....they’re all in danger now of having their intents tarnished now in any case;-) Of course I’d rather someone react with aversion to ‘wholesome’ than with sakkaya ditthi to ‘skilful’, so you may have persuaded me to avoid skilful for now;-) Probably in conversation I’d say something like ‘skilful in the sense of inherently good..’ but it’s too much of a mouthful here. ..... 7. I’ve checked a few small, medium and big pali dictionaries. The large Rhys Davids one translates kusala as clever, skilful, expert, good, right, meritorious. At the back of the Vism in the glossary, we find skilful, but profitable or faultless in the sections I checked . U Narada seems to go for faultless, Bodhi for wholesome, Buddhadatta for clever (as adj), Nyantiloka for wholesome. ..... 8. I conducted a mini-survey of translations of kusala in one particular Dhp verse which obviously is using kusala in its moral sense. I found good, refined, and skilful. ..... 9.. Perhaps of greatest importance is that what I think I hadn’t appreciated or taken note of (even tho’ I must of read or skimmed many times) until you pointed it out are the refs from the Atthasalini. What I now understand from these is that kusala in Pali actually has several different meanings and it depends on the context as to which is being referred to. (I had thought it always referred to the morally good and bad contexts and had never taken note of other uses). > What do the commentaries say? Well, we briefly discussed Asl. earlier > ["skilful" is excluded from the list of appropriate glosses for > kusala when it applies to dhammas, but is explicitly mentioned as a > fine way to think about dancing, singing, etc.] Ok, now I see your meaning: Kusala can refer to ‘good health’, ‘blameless conduct’ ‘faultless states’’skilful as in singing etc’’kamma productive of happy results’. the details are on p.48, 49 of the PTs Atth translation. I agree that as a result, skilful can be misleading if it is used (as I do) to ‘faultless states’. (Now what about ‘states’, Dan...;-) I still don’t understand, though (and don’t have the Pali), why the same translator on p.83 writes: ‘Moreover, from the absence of the faultiness, hate, and torments of the ‘corruptions’, kusala has the sense of ‘faultlessness.’ Understanding is described as SKILFULNESS. ‘Good’ has the sense of ‘brought about by SKILFULNESS.’ (my caps- comments?) ..... 10. > How so? First, a quick question: How should I practice so that I can > get good at (skillful) making desirable dhammas arise? > > Yeah, yeah, I know. You mean to apply "skillful" just to the dhammas > themselves... But how would that work? If someone asks this kind of question, I think the problem is with the idea of self practicing and doing rather than the particular use of skilful, but you should know better having had firsthand experience in subversive methodology;-) ..... 11.Dan you also asked me (off-list) to consider the following in my reply: Dan “O.K. Could you also consider the eel-wriggler section of the Brahmajala sutta in this context? In particular, one type of eel-wriggler refuses to consider anything as kusala/akusala because it might occasion distress, tension, etc. This sounds eerily (if not eelily) like choosing to gloss "kusala" as "skilful" in order to avoid thinking about the moral dimension of kusala/akusala. Of course, the moral dimension is inherent in the meaning and cannot be avoided by choosing a morally neutral word like "skilful"--witness the dsg discussion about excising half the meaning of "skilful" so that it cannot mean "good at" as applied to lying, dancing, chariots, etc.--the moral dimension is still there, but it is just swept under the carpet for the moment because it is uncomfortable to consider (a la the eel-wriggler).” I hope any final comments I make don’t sound eerily or eelily wriggly;-) As I mentioned at the outset, whenever I’ve used kusala/akusala and any terms in translation, I’ve always been referring to the moral dimension or inherently good/bad dimension. My only reason for using skilful has only ever been to avoid using wholesome/unwholesome, not because of the moral tone of the latter, but because of its ‘ring’ to English speakers (bread or other associations). Now you’ve fully enlightened me, I will probably use wholesome in preference (better some half-baked bread misundestanding than the sakkaya ditthi of the accomplished subersive list members like your former self;-) As I said before, I seldom have any strong feelings when it comes to translations. (Chris, when you get to the ‘eel-wriggling’ in the Brahmajala, pls share any further reminders as I’ve run out of time to check now). ..... 12. Dan, it’s been really interesting to learn more about your dsg tactical confessions and these tactical mistakes on my part. I think by now, most people know that I’m not in the habit of knowingly giving the wrigglers such an easy ‘under the carpet’ delay in facing up to what I see as being the true facts. (Btw, would you give me a page ref. to U Narada’s comments you refer to. Thanks). ********** Look forward to your ‘proper’ March visit.....and to comments on any other ‘gloss’ or easy options I may have inadvertently given to the ‘subversive’ folk like yourself. Sarah p.s Rob Ep......I have to admit that this reminded me of how ‘tough’ Dan’s posts used to be for us all in the old days;-) Now, he’d make a good lawyer..;-) ====================================================== extract from Nyantiloka’s dictionary: kusala: 'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, (skillful) Connotations of the term, according to Com. (Atthasálini), are: of good health, blameless, productive of favourable karma-result, skillful. It should be noted that Com. excludes the meaning 'skillful', when the term is applied to states of consciousness. ********** Dan’s comments which I haven’t replied to in context: ..... >When a citta rooted in alobha, > adosa, amoha arises, is it "skillful"? I.e., does it have or > demonstrate skill? The dictionary defines skill as "the ability to do > something well, arising from talent, training, or practice." I'm > curious. What talent, training, or practice has the citta engaged in > to give it that ability to do what it does well? Obviously, it > doesn't do any such thing; it is there for just a brief moment before > passing away. It would be nice to just remove the "arising from > talent, training, or practice" clause from the definition. The desire > to do so might be there, but it's not such an easy thing to do! The > definition of "skill" was skillfully constructed with the "arising > from..." clause included precisely because that's what naturally > comes to mind when people think of the word. To ignore it or try > to "remove" the clause is to shut one's eyes to the strong tendency > of people to associate training and practice with the > word "skillful," and imagine the skillful being rather than the > kusala dhamma. It is because of this tendency that the > word "skillful" is (only?) applied to beings and their works (and is > precisely why I used to use it to keep the conversation on dsg > comfortable for sakayaditti). For example, skillful teachers, > dancers, and liars, or skillful lessons, performances, and > deceptions. In both cases, the being is rather forcefully implied. To > apply the word to inanimate objects has an awkward ring to it. For > example, no one says the sun is skillful at warming the earth or the > watch is skillful at measuring time. The reason these sound funny is > that there is clearly no being for skillful to refer to. In thinking > about dhammas, there is such a strong tendency to subconsciously look > for self in the dhammas that "skillful" can feel quite comfortable > and preferable to less "animate" words. It is strange to hear of your > preference for the comfort of the Self-validating "skillful" over > other, less ditthi-inducing words. > > What do the commentaries say? Well, we briefly discussed Asl. earlier > ["skilful" is excluded from the list of appropriate glosses for > kusala when it applies to dhammas, but is explicitly mentioned as a > fine way to think about dancing, singing, etc.], and U Narada, in his > Introduction to "Conditional Relations", writes: "'Skilful'. ...it > cannot apply to moral states, not even to the sensuous, leave alone > the lofty and supramundane. The Commentary states that 'skilful' is > not a suitable meaning....The meaning of 'kusala' is also given in > the Commentaries on the Suttas..." He then goes on to list where the > word is defined in some 14 places in sutta commentaries. None of them > include "skilful", and some explicitly say 'skilful' is not an > appropriate gloss for kusala as applied to mental states. Why do you > think the commentaries, Ven. Nyanatiloka [in his dictionary], and U > Narada would so clearly reject 'skillful'?... > > Dan --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11389 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:53pm Subject: Re: Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. Dear Sarah, Sweet Revenge ..... can this be regarded as an abuse of power by the moderators? I will be happy to expand on my previous post, but will need to take a little while - the day I arrived back my brother was unexpectedly admitted to hospital - hopefully home tomorrow. I don't wonder why bad things happen, but why they are happening in clusters........ The only 'folk-wisdom' / 'superstition' explanation people keep telling me is that 'You'll be O.K. now, bad things come in threes' ...... Depends where they're counting from, I suppose...... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Chris, > > I hope you're catching up on the much needed rest and that all the > reflections are helping with the hospital and chores;-) > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > But events outside my control threw some completely different > > questions onto the table. Some sad events in the days before I was > > to travel, caused a dear one emotional and mental pain, and put the > > trip in doubt for a while. > > So, there was no well prepared list of questions....just an intense > > feeling about the fragility of life, the preciousness and finiteness > > of time, and the need to use both wisely. Thoughts were filled with > > death/kamma, attachment/dukkha, and anatta/no-control.......it's one > > thing to read about, discuss and try to understand these topics, > > considering them at a safe distance, but it is quite another to have > > them crash through the imaginary safety barrier surrounding ones' own > > family. > > Chris, I'm thinking it may be useful for everyone (inc. perhaps your > family?), if you were to give some brief details about the 'events' you > refer to and then make a few comments on what you heard or read that was > helpful in terms of both your understanding and also in assisting others. > I'd be interested, for one, to hear and will happily 'chip' in if there > is anything I can add usefully. > > > It was the attachment/dukkha link pointed out by one friend and > > discussed with others, that resulted in a growth in understanding > > for me, and a tentative beginning of discussing Dhamma with family > > members. Reading the chapters on Lobha in Ninas' books 'Cetasikas', > > and 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' was an 'education' , particularly when > > I had the tragic incident and everyones' reactions (mine included) to > > reflect on.....and Lobha is everywhere even in seemingly tiny, > > previously unconsidered and insignificant things.......and it hides > > under different names.....(it's much more serious and pervasive than > > I had realised before). > > Can you elaborate on any of these comments - the Dhamma w/family members, > the 'education', the reflections on 'reactions', and the pervasive nature > of lobha. (Just in your own time - no hurry at all;-)) > > > As to what I learned this time - I'm not sure I can articulate it > > exactly yet, .......... need a while (firstly to sleep) and then to > > process and reflect on events, and the formal (and, equally > > valuable, informal) discussions. > > I know how you feel.... > > > I definitely learned more about all of the topics mentioned above, > > as well as understanding a little more the difference > > between 'thinking' and 'seeing this moment and having awareness of > > this moment' - plus something (new to me) about the attributes of > > compassion (not always overtly warm and fuzzy), > > This would be interesting to hear more about too... (Now I'm sounding > 'greedy' as Ken O would say;-)) > > > and the power of > > kilesas and accumulations to strongly influence or even 'take > > control' of our behaviour. > > Perhaps the close correlation between idea of self and control is more > apparent now? Again, I think these points would be useful for us all to > consider if and when you feel like starting the ball rolling. > > Chris, it sounds like about half a dozen posts I've asked for, but I know > you'll just add your comments in your own time and delightful way. > > Maybe this is my response to being 'forced' to explain away our night-time > exploits to all these good people;-) > > Sarah > =================================================== 11390 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi- Michael Dear Michael, --- Michael Newton wrote: > --- > > Hello!Sarah; > Did you meet Ven.Srivasti Dhammika,from > Australia? > He was a good friend of Ven.Dhammadaro in > Sri Lanka. I don't remember having met, but I tend to remember faces better than names. Tadao (who sometimes lurks here) would probably know him as he was with Ven Dhammadharo for most that period as Ven Jetananda. >Dhammika is still > a monk and lives in Singapore,but travels,India,Sri > Lanka,thailand,Malaysia,and Europe.He has written > several pamphlets on Buddhism.One > popular one is Good Questions,Good Answers > and believe he met Nina,Khun Sujin,and was at talks in > 1976 with us in Sri Lanka.Maybe,he he can get involved > in group. He may also be in a photo I have from that time. We'd be very honoured if he'd care to join us here. Please pass him or the other mutual friend you mentioned before who knew me in B.Gaya this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup I'm very glad that you're finding so many friends and links here, Michael and I hope you're enjoying the discussions. Sarah ============================================ 11391 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02.Dr NUM Dear Num, --- srnsk wrote: > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > Thanks for sharing your kusala time and experience with us. I really > smiled and luaghed with your mails. Thanks for your good humour and apologies for abusing your role as 'list psychiatrist'. Jon pointed out your aunt to me but she was giving a dhamma talk at the time. Jon said she was asking questions in the Thai session w/ K.Sujin but I forget if he told me what they were about...perhaps he'll fill in the details. I'm appreciating all the discussion between herself, you and Nina (even if most of it is 'over my head';-)). I'm always so impressed (read-amazed) by your keen interest and attention to details. Sarah =================================================== 11392 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] sharing food Num Just a short comment on the 4 padhanas (right endeavours) --- srnsk@a... wrote: > Dear Nina, > > I am reading your Dhamma in Cambodia. It's a great food as well. In > Ch.III, > you mentioned the Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. From what I have read the > samma-padhana, 4 right efforts, consists of 1) the avoidance of akusala > states as yet unarisen 2) the overcoming of akusala states already > arisen 3) > the development of kusala states as yet unarisen, and 4)the maintaining > of > kusala states already arisen. There may be some discussion on this > before, > but I am curious what it really means by 2) the overcoming of akusala > states > already arisen. Akusala which has already arisen and then completely > fallen > away, what to overcome?? So what does it mean by overcome sth which has > already arisen and gone? What has been done, is done. If it means for > future > akusala, then it will have the meaning as 1). I paste below the description given in the Visuddhimagga as translated by Nanamoli. In the same passage it explains how, at mundane path moments, the accompanying viriya is one or other of the 4 endeavours, depending on the circumstances giving rise to the citta, while at moment of supramundane path consciousness the accompanying viriya performs the function f all 4 endeavours. Jon The Path of Purity XXII, 39 And at the time when, on seeing an unprofitable state arisen in someone else, which has not yet arisen in his own person, he strives for its non-arising thus ‘I shall not behave as he has done in whom this is now arisen, and so this will not arise in me’, then he has the first right endeavour; when, seeing something unprofitable in his own behaviour, he strives to abandon it, then he has the second; when he strives to arouse jhana or insight so far unarisen in this person, he has the third; and when he arouses again and again what has already arisen so that it shall not diminish, he has the fourth. ... 11393 From: onco111 Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Sarah ("kusala" revisited) > 5.. > Last winter, I explicitly used "skillful" when the conversation > would > > steer uncomfortably close to anatta -- something that people are more > > loathe to accept than even the moral/immoral/amoral triplet! > > Actually, I had no idea at all about your hidden agenda here..Very > interesting indeed;-) Of course, now I know, I'll be on the lookout for > others with the same bag of tricks. I'd honestly never thought of this > implication before this post of yours. Well, if you'd asked me about it then, I'd probably have said, "No, I'm not doing that," because it wasn't entirely clear to me that that was what I was doing. Of course, if someone else would have asked me about it then, I may have paused, thought about it, and said, "Hmmm...You're right! I am!" Debating with someone can very easily lead to hardending views because we get so caught up in our positions that we view our position as "Self" and can't bear the thought of doing anything to harm that Self. > 6.> I confess my subversive intent in using "skillful" back then. I > > thought (and probably wrote) things like: "These guys talk about > > anatta too much and over-emphasize Right View instead of balancing it > > with talk about the other parts of the path, like Right Effort." Of > > course, much of the time I was thinking about conventional effort > > (despite the fact that I thought I was talking about Right Effort). I > > was delighted when I stumbled onto the "skillful" gloss for "kusala" > > because I could use it in my quest to steer the conversation back to > > the more comfortable realm of mistaking conventional effort for Right > > Effort and of making it easier to stay firmly rooted in sakaya- ditthi > > [personality view]. Now Sarah is doing the same thing (albeit, > > unintentionally). > > Yes, quite unintentional and I have no idea if others have the same > `subversive intent' Dan....they're all in danger now of having their > intents tarnished now in any case;-) It's clear to me that my intents are tarnished 99.9% of the time. (On the other hand, I sure don't want other people to know that! "*I* am GOOD!" Ha Ha!) Kusala cittas are rare and precious, and looking closely at how we use words can sometimes illustrate this clearly. > 7. I've checked a few small, medium and big pali dictionaries. The large > Rhys Davids one translates kusala as clever, skilful, expert, good, right, > meritorious. At the back of the Vism in the glossary, we find skilful, but > profitable or faultless in the sections I checked . U Narada seems to go > for faultless, Bodhi for wholesome, Buddhadatta for clever (as adj), > Nyantiloka for wholesome. Yes, of course "kusala" has all these meanings, but "skillful" is not appropriate for cittas or cetasikas. Another example: Even though her husband used "clever, skilful, expert" in his dictionary, C.A.F. Rhys Davids elaborates further in the introduction to her translation of Dhammasangani (p. lxxxiii): "Of these four [viz. (a) wholesome, (b) virtuous, (c) skilful, (d) productive of happy result], (c) alone is ruled out as not applicable to the eight types of good thoughts constituting dhamma kusala." It can be quite dangerous to just look through the dictionary for the gloss of a word that makes us feel the most comfortable about our ditthi! > 8. I conducted a mini-survey of translations of kusala in one particular > Dhp verse which obviously is using kusala in its moral sense. I found > good, refined, and skilful. Some translations are certainly better than others! > What I now understand from these is that kusala in Pali actually has > several different meanings and it depends on the context as to which is > being referred to. (I had thought it always referred to the morally good > and bad contexts and had never taken note of other uses). Right. The "skilful" sense is not properly used when applied to dhammas. > I agree that as a result, skilful can be misleading if it is used (as I > do) to `faultless states'. (Now what about `states', Dan...;-) "States" is a good word to use when you want to blur the distinctions between citta, cetasika, and dhamma -- a fine thing to do in this context! You are a sharp one, Sarah. I'm a bit rushed now, so to zoom through your comments... > as being the true facts. (Btw, would you give me a page ref. to U Narada's > comments you refer to. Thanks). Page cix (last page in the introduction to CR [not "Guide to CR"], vol. 1). > extract from Nyantiloka's dictionary: > > kusala: 'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, > (skillful) Connotations of the term, according to Com. (Atthasálini), are: > of good health, blameless, productive of favourable karma-result, > skillful. It should be noted that Com. excludes the meaning 'skillful', > when the term is applied to states of consciousness. 11394 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit/Michael Hi Michael, (I posted this reply a couple of hours ago, but it hasn't appeared on the List yet. So, I am re-posting it. Sorry if you end up reading it twice.) Sorry, I don't have any contact address for Bhikkhu Bodhi ..... he is one of my favourite writers though. Thank you for your interesting post. I enjoyed reading about your past Dhamma connections, and I'm so glad you are finding your way back in touch again. I don't think we ever lose the true parts of our life - sometimes we just wander away for a while, and get distracted by other things. But eventually we come back to our "hearts' home" and find the beauty is still the same and wonder how we ever could have stopped noticing it........ Hope to see more of your posts on this list, Michael.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "michael newton" wrote: > Hello!Christine; > Could you send me Bhikkhu Bodhi's email address(if you've got it) > I was a monk ordained by his teacher by Ven,Ananda Maitreya,his > teacher,at Balangoda,but now I'm disrobed.I always admired Bhikkhu > Bodhi,his depth of practice and knowledge.Thank's to this dhamma study > group,I'm reconnecting with my past that was so rich and rewarding and > now feel it's always there,but just hadn't seen it lately.Thank's to the > world wide web,I've met others i used to know.Khun Sujin,Nina,and Sarah. > I've recently connected with Ven.Sravista Dhammika,Australian monk,now > living in Singapore,but travels to India,Sri Lanka,and Euope most > recently.Downloaded some of his online PDF FILES.He's most recent work > is"Good Questions,Good Answers".His email address is pitijoy@y... > MAY ALL BEINGS BE HAPPY,YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL NEWTON > > > >From: "christine_forsyth" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. > >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:14:38 -0000 > > > >Hi Num, > > > >Thanks for your post .... time to settle down again, and use the > >energy more constructively :-) > >I'm starting to study the Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of > >Views - Bhikkhu Bodhi. That should keep me quiet for a while .... a > >considerable while, by the looks. (All I ask is - please don't let me > >find that I hold ALL of the erroneous views ....) > > > >metta, > >Christine > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "srnsk" wrote: > > > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your kusala time and experience with us. I > >really > > > smiled and luaghed with your mails. I am really admire your viriya > > > (energy), Christine. Seeing an example of good friends > >(kalayanamitta) > > > is also uplifting. Let me anumodhana with you guys. > > > > > > As I see it, and as I heard before, panna is the leading factor in > >all > > > parami. Dana, sila, viriya, ... without a conducting of panna can > >go > > > completely opposite way. It's not the "I" who do this. > > > > > > Anumodhana. > > > > > > Num 11395 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit/Michael --- Dear Michael, Ven. bodhi's address is venbodhi@i... You could mention this group to him. When I wrote to him last year he had only occasional internet access so felt unable to get involved in lists (plus he is busy) but you never know. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Michael, > (I posted this reply a couple of hours ago, but it hasn't appeared > on the List yet. So, I am re-posting it. Sorry if you end up > reading it twice.) > > Sorry, I don't have any contact address for Bhikkhu Bodhi ..... he is > one of my favourite writers though. > > Thank you for your interesting post. I enjoyed reading about your > past Dhamma connections, and I'm so glad you are finding your way > back in touch again. I don't think we ever lose the true parts of > our life - sometimes we just wander away for a while, and get > distracted by other things. But eventually we come back to > our "hearts' home" and find the beauty is still the same and wonder > how we ever could have stopped noticing it........ Hope to see more > of your posts on this list, Michael.... > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "michael newton" > wrote: > > Hello!Christine; > > Could you send me Bhikkhu Bodhi's email address(if you've got it) > > I was a monk ordained by his teacher by Ven,Ananda Maitreya,his > > teacher,at Balangoda,but now I'm disrobed.I always admired Bhikkhu > > Bodhi,his depth of practice and knowledge.Thank's to this dhamma > study > > group,I'm reconnecting with my past that was so rich and rewarding > and > > now feel it's always there,but just hadn't seen it lately.Thank's > to the > > world wide web,I've met others i used to know.Khun Sujin,Nina,and > Sarah. > > I've recently connected with Ven.Sravista Dhammika,Australian > monk,now > > living in Singapore,but travels to India,Sri Lanka,and Euope most > > recently.Downloaded some of his online PDF FILES.He's most recent > work > > is"Good Questions,Good Answers".His email address is pitijoy@y... > > MAY ALL BEINGS BE HAPPY,YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL NEWTON > > > > 11396 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. Dear Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Sweet Revenge ..... can this be regarded as an abuse of power by the > moderators? > I will be happy to expand on my previous post, but will need to take > a little while - the day I arrived back my brother was unexpectedly > admitted to hospital - hopefully home tomorrow. I sincerely hope he's OK....you've certainly been having a few tests lately.... I'm just reflecting on K.Sujin's reminders about thinking about/helping the others with kusala (no translation;-) instead of dwelling on one's own unpleasant feelings as can happen so easily..... Please don't you or anyone ever feel any hurry or need at all to reply to anything I say here... > I don't wonder why bad things happen, but why they are happening in > clusters........ I think it comes back to those complex conditions that kom explained so well..remember his weather analogy? Remember too, that the 'things' are just momentary vipaka (results of kamma) followed by kusala and akusala accumulations..... The only 'folk-wisdom' / 'superstition' explanation > people keep telling me is that 'You'll be O.K. now, bad things come > in threes' ...... Depends where they're counting from, I > suppose...... In any language, i hope you get a good rest and break this weekend and that your brother and other family members do too. metta, Sarah ======== 11397 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] other trip to India Dear Betty, Thanks for sharing with everyone here. I'm sure your husband was glad to have you on this trip and I fully sympathise - travelling in India is always exhausting, I find. As you point out so well, lobha and dosa really are uncontrollable....and you've just had some good tests;-) Thanks for portraying the details and your reactions so honestly and vividly. Really I can't help smiling.....such wit and great everyday detail these days from our female members (thinking of Christine and Lucy and now your post;-)) I know Nina and others will appreciate it very much too. Sounds like you need to catch up on some rest from the 'overload' too;-) Sarah ============= --- "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" > wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Missed you all while in India and hope that nothing > > will arise to keep me away next time you come to > > Bangkok. >>But the next best thing will be to be able > > to get copies of the tapes for the days you were > > there. Hope they will give them to me. While a > > feeling of deep regret for not having gone on the > > Foundation's trip there back in October arose, it > > quickly changed to acceptance for what circumstances > > did arise. And although going with the group would > > probably have helped me deal a lot better with what > > I faced in that country, I did "bring home" a deeper > > understanding of 3 points for which "I" needed > > additional reminding: the insidious way in which > > lobha and dhosa prevent panna from arising and how > > much more difficult it is to study/learn dhamma in a > > "woeful" lifetime. There also arose a keener > > appreciation for the depth of emotion Lord Buddha > > must have experienced upon facing the "real India" > > when he came out of the protective confines of his > > palace for the first time, before his enlightenment. > > For the many in India, their lives must be surely > > classified as a woeful existence, and yet it was > > there that Lord Buddha began, or put in motion, the > > "wheel" or path of the Dhamma. We each learn what is > > needed at the right time and place, so these > > "points" are probably what "I" needed to learn at > > the time, given the vipaka arising at those times. > > > > India and all its color, sounds, smells, tastes and > > other sensations were paccaya to cause what best can > > be described in modern terms as sensory overload. > > This lead to almost constant dhosa arising > > throughout the trip. Hands flung into the face with > > "How much will you pay for this?" and insistence on > > an immediate answer, begging children, cow dung, > > lepers (yes, there were a number of them also with > > their wrapped hands and faces), crowds of moving > > humanity, with never a moment of quiet to think or > > contemplate, all came together in a "panic attack" > > of sorts along the twisted lanes leading down to, > > and back from, the ghats in Varanasi. Even thinking > > the whole while that these constant sensations were > > vipaka was not enough to alleviate the constant > > dhosa arising, that dominated my thoughts. And > > trying to "ignore" all of it, as a way of trying to > > get those hawkers and beggars to leave me alone, was > > also a form of dhosa too. It was also frustrating > > (dhosa) never to have enough small change to give to > > the beggars who were too pitiful for words. Perhaps > > that is what the upper class Hindus do: they try to > > ignore what goes on around them, find justification > > for it in the caste system, and don't realize that > > constant dhosa towards that which arises around them > > leads them to run a government which does next to > > nothing to try and alleviate somewhat the terrible > > conditions because dhosa prevents it from finding a > > way to best run its country. It is government > > without dhamma (as are most world governments, to a > > large extent). It puts forth the usual execuses: > > overpopulation, etc., yet with Dhamma, understanding > > could arise to how best to deal with the poverty. > > > > But, who am I to judge the Indian gov't? I had > > constant dhosa all the time, so of course, I could > > not see the reality either. But just when I would > > think of all the sights being just color, the sounds > > being just sound, etc., a hand or something to buy > > was thrust in my face, breaking all thought. I never > > could look "at the moment" either and be aware of > > what reality was arising at the time; satipattana > > never arose in India (for "me".) But an increasing > > realization of just how difficult it would be to > > study and understand dhamma under such circumstances > > did arise, along with a greater appreciation and > > understanding why an enlightened being, the Buddha, > > would be born into such an environment and to later > > teach the Dhamma there. What better place than India > > to begin? 11398 From: srnsk Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] sharing food Dear Nina, Jon and Sarah, <<>> Ahha, it makes more sense to me now, when you put in the mundane and supramundane levels. Like in Sotapatimagga-citta moment, the panna at that level completely eradicates (discards) micchaditthi and viccikicca, so at that moment all four aspects of samma-viriya are in there. Those two will not arise again (1), completely discard (2), moral that has never arisen has arisen (3), and there can be only samma-ditthi arises again and again (4), (my own version of interpretation). This will be an ongoing thing until the moment of the last magga-citta. I also think that I can apply this to lokiya kusala. To me, even in lokiya kusala moment, the viriya cetasika performs these four functions but in a weaker intensity and degree. At kusala moment, akusla at least momentary discards and somewhat temporary not arises. Kusala is developed and it will be a condition for the future kusala. I mean not in same intensity as in magga-citta. This also reminded me of 3 rounds explanation by A.Sujin, that even in lokiya level, the 3 rounds of 12 could be applied to. Thanks for the quote from VSM and also the definition of the 3 rounds, Jon. And this also for Sarah, you mentioned about my peculiar attention to details. Well, the teaching of the Buddha is deep and hard to really understand (definitely for me). When I read sutta or abhidhamma, I prefer to understand it at least literally (byanjana!!) and semantically (attha), also if conditions permit, intuitively as well. That's why I come up with a lot of questions, mainly because I do not understand what I have read or listened. Appreciate, Num 11399 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Ken, I will put your question aside as I see it leads to self-view, which in turn leads to dukkha, does not lead to the cessation of dukkha. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > Then what are you? If these five aggregates are not what you are, would > you like to tell me what are you compose of. In the same way, that is how > Buddhaghosa said that there is no being, bc that is not what they are. Is > it the same as what you have said below. > > Be it conventional or ultimate definition, as you always also said "this > is not I" is the basis for Buddhaghosa argument for no existence of > beings. He is not here to defend for himself now, I believe he is not an > extremist, to me, he is just stating a fact. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:22:19 -0500 > From: "Victor Yu" > Subject: Re: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) > > Hello Ken, > > These five aggregates are not what I am. > > Regards, > Victor 11400 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:01am Subject: India Ch 3, no. 3 India Ch 3, no. 3 In India I had a conversation about concepts with Acharn Sujin: Nina: We forget to develop understanding of realities when we read the newspaper. We are absorbed in the news about events that occur such as wars. Sujin: We take the stories for reality but actually they are contained in one moment of thinking. We can develop understanding of realities, no matter where we are, whatever event occurs. Nina: We have accumulated so much forgetfulness of realities. Sujin: We should listen to the Dhamma, consider it and develop more understanding. On other occasions we spoke about fear we may have on account of the truth of non-self: Sujin: The world appears dark and lonely without people. There are no family, no friends. There is nobody in this room. Nina: Where is the gladness on account of the Dhamma? Sujin: There can be gladness on account of paññå that knows the truth. You cannot change the characteristics of realities that make up the world. They are only elements. One should be very sincere as to one¹s own development of understanding. When someone is frightened it shows that paññå has not sufficiently been developed. When he realizes this, he should be courageous to continue developing paññå. The concept of self is deeply rooted. She also reminded me: ³There is no Lodewijk, there is just our own world of thinking, thinking of Lodewijk. When we were born we were alone. When seeing, we are alone, there is just citta that sees. We are alone because there is no self. Seeing arises and then thinking of the world of concepts and this hides the reality of seeing, visible object and the other realities.² Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of next one, this is one of the many conditions for citta: anantara-paccaya, contiguity condition. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, otherwise we could not stay alive. Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. We see only what appears through the eyes, but it seems that we see and immediately know that this or that person is there, this or that thing, and that we also at the same time have like or dislike of what we see. In reality there are countless moments of cittas succeeding one another. The fact that many impressions seem to occur all at the same time shows that cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another extremely fast. Cittas arise in succession, without a pause in between, and therefore, good and bad qualities, kusala cetasikas and akusala cetasikas, can be accumulated from moment to moment, from one life to the next life. Attachment, aversion, loving kindness or understanding can be accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again and again. Three akusala cetasikas are roots, hetus, and these are: attachment, lobha, aversion or hate, dosa, and ignorance, moha. Akusala cittas can be rooted in attachment, in aversion or in ignorance, but the hetu that is ignorance accompanies each akusala citta. Thus, ignorance of realities conditions all akusala that arises. Besides the three akusala hetus, several other akusala cetasikas may accompany akusala citta such as wrong view, stinginess or conceit. There are three beautiful roots, sobhana hetus: non-attachment, alobha, non-aversion, adosa and wisdom or paññå. Alobha and adosa accompany each kusala citta and paññå may or may not accompany kusala citta. Besides the three sobhana hetus several other sobhana cetasikas accompany kusala citta, such as confidence in wholesomeness and mindfulness. 11401 From: azita gill Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 3, no. 3 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > India Ch 3, no. 3 > > In India I had a conversation about concepts with > Acharn Sujin: > > Nina: We forget to develop understanding of > realities when we read the > newspaper. We are absorbed in the news about events > that occur such as wars. > > Sujin: We take the stories for reality but actually > they are contained in > one moment of thinking. We can develop understanding > of realities, no matter > where we are, whatever event occurs. > Nina: We have accumulated so much forgetfulness of > realities. > Sujin: We should listen to the Dhamma, consider it > and develop more > understanding. > > On other occasions we spoke about fear we may have > on account of the truth > of non-self: > > Sujin: The world appears dark and lonely without > people. There are no > family, no friends. There is nobody in this room. > Nina: Where is the gladness on account of the > Dhamma? > Sujin: There can be gladness on account of paññå > that knows the truth. You > cannot change the characteristics of realities that > make up the world. They > are only elements. One should be very sincere as to > one¹s own development of > understanding. When someone is frightened it shows > that paññå has not > sufficiently been developed. When he realizes this, > he should be courageous > to continue developing paññå. The concept of self is > deeply rooted. > > She also reminded me: > ³There is no Lodewijk, there is just our own world > of thinking, thinking of > Lodewijk. When we were born we were alone. When > seeing, we are alone, there > is just citta that sees. We are alone because there > is no self. Seeing > arises and then thinking of the world of concepts > and this hides the reality > of seeing, visible object and the other realities.² > > Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of > next one, this is one > of the many conditions for citta: anantara-paccaya, > contiguity condition. > Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, otherwise > we could not stay alive. > Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. We see > only what appears through > the eyes, but it seems that we see and immediately > know that this or that > person is there, this or that thing, and that we > also at the same time have > like or dislike of what we see. In reality there are > countless moments of > cittas succeeding one another. The fact that many > impressions seem to occur > all at the same time shows that cittas arise and > fall away, succeeding one > another extremely fast. > Cittas arise in succession, without a pause in > between, and therefore, good > and bad qualities, kusala cetasikas and akusala > cetasikas, can be > accumulated from moment to moment, from one life to > the next life. > Attachment, aversion, loving kindness or > understanding can be accumulated so > that there are conditions for their arising again > and again. > Three akusala cetasikas are roots, hetus, and these > are: attachment, lobha, > aversion or hate, dosa, and ignorance, moha. Akusala > cittas can be rooted in > attachment, in aversion or in ignorance, but the > hetu that is ignorance > accompanies each akusala citta. Thus, ignorance of > realities conditions all > akusala that arises. Besides the three akusala > hetus, several other akusala > cetasikas may accompany akusala citta such as wrong > view, stinginess or > conceit. There are three beautiful roots, sobhana > hetus: non-attachment, > alobha, non-aversion, adosa and wisdom or paññå. > Alobha and adosa accompany > each kusala citta and paññå may or may not accompany > kusala citta. Besides > the three sobhana hetus several other sobhana > cetasikas accompany kusala > citta, such as confidence in wholesomeness and > mindfulness. > dearest Nina and others, > I chose to delete non of the above because I believe that this is the crux of Buddha's teaching. For many months I listened to the Ven. Dhammadharo's talks at Wat Pleng in BK. We discussed nama,rupa,citta,cetasika,kusala,akusala endlessly. His name came up in an earlier post and I felt quite sad and yes, very alone, when I remembered him and his wonderful ability to teach Dhamma so clearly. I met K. Sujin thro. Ven. Dhammadaro. and now I'm so glad to have found this again. Thank you heaps,Nina, for your excellant writings. A Anumodana, from Azita-used-to-be-Helen. > > 11402 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, /Michael. Hi Michael, Sorry, I don't have any contact address for Bhikkhu Bodhi ..... he is one of my favourite writers though. Thank you for your interesting post. I enjoyed reading about your past Dhamma connections, and I'm so glad you are finding your way back in touch again. I don't think we ever lose the true parts of our life - sometimes we just wander away for a while, and get distracted by other things. But eventually we come back to our "hearts' home" and find the beauty is still the same and wonder how we ever could have stopped noticing it........ Hope to see more of your posts on this list, Michael.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "michael newton" wrote: > Hello!Christine; > Could you send me Bhikkhu Bodhi's email address(if you've got it) > I was a monk ordained by his teacher by Ven,Ananda Maitreya,his > teacher,at Balangoda,but now I'm disrobed.I always admired Bhikkhu > Bodhi,his depth of practice and knowledge.Thank's to this dhamma study > group,I'm reconnecting with my past that was so rich and rewarding and > now feel it's always there,but just hadn't seen it lately.Thank's to the > world wide web,I've met others i used to know.Khun Sujin,Nina,and Sarah. > I've recently connected with Ven.Sravista Dhammika,Australian monk,now > living in Singapore,but travels to India,Sri Lanka,and Euope most > recently.Downloaded some of his online PDF FILES.He's most recent work > is"Good Questions,Good Answers".His email address is pitijoy@y... > MAY ALL BEINGS BE HAPPY,YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL NEWTON > > > >From: "christine_forsyth" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. > >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:14:38 -0000 > > > >Hi Num, > > > >Thanks for your post .... time to settle down again, and use the > >energy more constructively :-) > >I'm starting to study the Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of > >Views - Bhikkhu Bodhi. That should keep me quiet for a while .... a > >considerable while, by the looks. (All I ask is - please don't let me > >find that I hold ALL of the erroneous views ....) > > > >metta, > >Christine > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "srnsk" wrote: > > > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your kusala time and experience with us. I > >really > > > smiled and luaghed with your mails. I am really admire your viriya > > > (energy), Christine. Seeing an example of good friends > >(kalayanamitta) > > > is also uplifting. Let me anumodhana with you guys. > > > > > > As I see it, and as I heard before, panna is the leading factor in > >all > > > parami. Dana, sila, viriya, ... without a conducting of panna can > >go > > > completely opposite way. It's not the "I" who do this. > > > > > > Anumodhana. > > > > > > Num > > 11403 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hi Victor, All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, what we are doing now are just plain attachment. Kind regards Ken O --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, > > I will put your question aside as I see it leads to self-view, which > in turn leads to dukkha, does not lead to the cessation of dukkha. > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Victor > > > > Then what are you? If these five aggregates are not what you are, > would > > you like to tell me what are you compose of. In the same way, that > is how > > Buddhaghosa said that there is no being, bc that is not what they > are. Is > > it the same as what you have said below. > > > > Be it conventional or ultimate definition, as you always also > said "this > > is not I" is the basis for Buddhaghosa argument for no existence of > > beings. He is not here to defend for himself now, I believe he is > not an > > extremist, to me, he is just stating a fact. > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > Ken O > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:22:19 -0500 > > From: "Victor Yu" > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) > > > > Hello Ken, > > > > These five aggregates are not what I am. > > > > Regards, > > Victor 11404 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computers and dhammas --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > I can see you are giving some careful thought to this. It is not easy to > grasp, but very worthwhile persevering with. Thanks, Jon. And thanks for your efforts at clarification. Best, Robert Ep. 11405 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: There can be useful reflection about the dhamma > and its relation to the present moment at any time, even as one reads > posts. And asking pertinent questions (which is something you excel at) > is also given in the texts as being a key asset. thanks, jon, and thanks for your good answers. Robert Ep. 11406 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Dear Howard, I've been appreciating your discussion with Jon and I'm sure there are many people here who share your understanding of Sat Sutta, 8fold path and so on and will be glad if you continue to clarify your points. I think it's very helpful for us all to discuss these areas and finetune. Anyway, that wasn't my purpose here;-) I just got round to checking your reference in the following post as I was curious to follow this line. However, I can't find it under Dhp 276 which is about the 8fold path;-) Neither is under the Pali ref. Maybe you could kindly check it..sorry for the delay. Sarah ====== --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Christine - > > Here is a reference for you. In his wonderful book Buddhadhamma, > the > renowned Thai scholar-monk, Phra Prayudh Payutto discusses this issue. > He > lists as the first of what the Buddha called "three heretical doctrines" > the > doctrine of "Pubbekatahetuvaada (past-action determinism) - believing > that > all sukha and dukkha are related to past kamma (or pubbekatavaada, for > short)" Going into further detail on this, he quotes the Buddha from > Dhammapada 276 as follows: "Truly, Sivaka, some sensations arise having > goodness as their place of origin ... some arise from the fluctuation of > the > seasons ... some arise from a lack of consistent behavior ... some arise > from > being the victim of bad deeds ... some arise from the fruits of > kamma....If > any recluses and brahmins assert or believe that 'People have sensations > - be > they sukha or dukkha, non-sukha or non-dukkha - due to past kamma,' ... > I can > say that this is the fault of those recluses and brahmins themselves." > I think this is rather clear, don't you? In particular, one can see the > connection between the Buddha's statement that "some arise from being > the > victim of bad deeds" and my statement in my last post on this subject to > the > effect that "Other beings can initiate willful action against beings > which > have consequences for those beings. Harm CAN be done to innocent > beings." I > have based my position on what the Buddha said, not only on my own > deductions. 11407 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Sarah ("kusala" revisited) Hi Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > > 5.. > Last winter, I explicitly used "skillful" when the > conversation > > would > > > steer uncomfortably close to anatta -- something that people are > more > > > loathe to accept than even the moral/immoral/amoral triplet! Pls add more. There are a lot of discussions here about anatta, control, intention and rt effort. There's no hurry at all (I know you're really trying to keep away until March), but sometime if you would write a little more on this general area with your refreshingly different style, I think it would be helpful for us all;-) You also have the advantage (which Christine is rapidly losing;-) of not being seen to toe the party line -quite..... You never know either, but your ol' pal Erik might also be persuaded to surface for a little while when you raise these topics;-) I hope Lisa is finding a few posts comprehensible enough to consider and thank you again for your 'skilful' comments and refs which I'll check out very soon. Sarah ======================== 11408 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Dear Smallchap, --- small chap wrote: > > I am a male Chinese Singaporean. Have been practising > meditation irregularly for about 20 years and still > learning. You'll meet a few other (always travelling) Singaporeans or adopted Singaporeans here. Jon and I live in Hong Kong. We're all still learning here too....(and will probably continue for many, many lifetimes;-)) We often discuss meditation and practise and the different understandings of these terms, so we'll always be glad to hear from you too. Best wishes and thanks for your reply. Sarah ============================ 11409 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminosity yet again! Hi Ken O, Enjoying your chat w/Victor;-) --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Actually I asked this question out of curiousity. Since beings in hell > and other realms all have0bhavanga cittas, hence luminious is applied to > them too. Actually what I was told exactly was that they are luminous in all planes (inc. hell realms) because "no other objects appear". In other words, the sense door and mind door objects don't appear and the bhavanga citta is unaffected by these. >I don't think my position is about an external pure mind > essence, I dont think I have disagree with what is said in AA. What > fathoms me is that why bavanga citta is used initially in the commentary > to explain luminious citta then change to kusala cittas for development > of > the mind. To me as in my previous mail, it is not consistent. > Nevertheless, till then, I do accept the commentary position. Like we read about the parent-child analogy in the commentary, the reason I understand for mentioning and considering the bhavanga citta (as luminous) is to show the effect of the kusala and akusala (wholesome and unwholesome)mental factors and how they influence the citta in contrast to the bhavanga cittas (life-continuum consciousness). This is after all what the sutta is about, i.e. the development of kusala and the danger of akusala . > I not on holiday now, I am trying to be a lurker (he he :)). But > sometimes the topic just too much for me not to say something. Glad to hear you're lurking anyway and perhaps you can occasionally say something (or that other little request) for us out of consideration.....;-) >Hmm got > to > be more mindful of my tanha. Yes, well tanha (attachment) does sneek in everywhere..... Thanks Ken O, Sarah ============================= P.S. Newbies, this is a very old theme on dsg. You may wish to refer to a Pali glossary from time to time on the homepage at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary For more detailed posts on this thread, pls also refer to "Luminous Mind' heading at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 11410 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Lucy --- Lucy wrote: > Hello all > In observing realities, am I right to think that what one sees generally > is > more the khandhas than the individual citta, etc.? It seems to me that > what > I take to be "citta" is actually a very complex manifestation of > innumerable cittas - more on the lines of "aggregates" (khandas) than as > single realities. Even isolating rupa from concept of rupa seems almost > impossible to my mind - what I notice as "hardness", etc. is already > elaborated into something quite different from plain hardness - it's > more > like "hardness" + sanna + vedana + vinnana, +/- recollection of & > comparison with other experiences of "hardness" and even expectations of > "hardness" becoming softer and warmer...instead of looking at one door, > I'm > looking at a whole building plus the surrounding gardens, parks and > streets... What you are describing is I think a fairly common experience, namely, that a practice of 'observing realities' does not result in a breaking down of the present moment experience into its component realities. To put it another way, it does not seem possible by such a practice to 'deconstruct' the ongoing present moment experience into the various parts that are described in the teachings. The reason this is so (at least, according to my understanding of the teachings) is that the underlying realities that constitute the present moment can only be directly observed as they are by awareness and insight, and the conditions for the the happening of these particular factors do not include the intentional observation of realities. Let me hasten to add here, since I am likely to be misunderstood on that last point, that I am not saying that the intention to observe realities is either a positive or a negative factor. I am saying it is not given in the texts as one of the *necessary i.e., indispensable*, factors in the development of insight. I presume this is because, when you think about it, kusala of any kind canand does occur both with and without the 'assistance' of volitional intention, and presumably the stronger one's kusala tendencies the more likely those tendencies are to manifest without the 'prompting' of a self-administered reminder. To answer your question, then, I think that what one sees when trying to observe realities is neither individual cittas not khandhas. Anything we try to 'see' in this way has actually gone before we 'see' it. My understanding is that what we see at those times is not different *qualitatively* (in the terms we are discussing here -- awareness, panna or other kinds of kusala) from what we see at any other time, although it is no doubt different in the sense that we do not normally turn our attention to those particular matters. > So, I wonder, does the practice of satipatthana lead to discriminating > individual realities? What's the process by which the aggregates > disaggregate and an individual citta or rupa becomes manifest? I suppose the short answer to the first of these questions is found in the Satipatthana Sutta itself, where it says in the section on mind-objects (which I quoted in a recent post to Howard), that 'contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects' means in fact 'knowing as they really are' those mind-objects. In other words, it's not that there is a practice of satipatthana that *leads to* the discriminating of individual realities, but satipatthana itself *is* the discriminating of individual realities. If individual realities are not being discriminated, then it's not satipatthana; only by satipatthana can individual realities be discriminated. As to individual cittas or rupas becoming manifest, it depends on what you mean by 'individual' here. True, awareness knows *only one reality at a time*, but this does not mean that it knows *a single moment of that reality*, followed by a single moment of some other reality (only great minds such as those of a Buddha can know realities to that level of detail). As I understand it, there may be several moments of awareness of the same particular reality, and in this way the individual reality becomes discriminated for a brief period. What is the process by which this happens? According to the texts, it cannot happen without a thorough grasp of the theory of the present moment, otherwise one will be trying to see things that are not there to be seen. Nor can it happen without an appreciation that it cannot be made to happen, but can only come about (but nevertheless will surely come about) if the right conditions for its happening are developed. Some consider this to be mere randomness, but properly understood it just means that if the right environment is provided, awareness will sprout in due course (can anyone *make* a tree grow??). And awareness needs the most delicate of nurturing! > Or is this a stupid question? No question on this subject is a stupid one, as far as I 'm concerned. The texts encourage us to ask questions about things that need to be understood. I hope this is helpful. Jon 11411 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:15am Subject: The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Dhamma Friends The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind. I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta½ sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– "paº¹ara½ parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya½ labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki½ pana cittassa vaººo n±ma atth²"ti? Itaro ar³pat±ya "natth²"ti paµikkhipitv± pariy±yakath± aya½ t±disassa cittassa parisuddhabh±van±d²pan±y±ti dassento "n²l±d²nan"ti-±dim±ha." To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets as follows. "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- aadimaaha." If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the chore became rather time-consumming. As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because I wanted to save time. Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here on this list. Happy downloading! Suan THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a figurative speech. I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as the life-cause consciousness (bhavańga cittam). As both the commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I provided new information on the matter. Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause consciousness here. The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the original Suttam statement in two ways. Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern fields of sciences. What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a bit longer. What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior arising from the same mental chain"? The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern general readers. Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of spelling out the implications of their readings of the original Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the function of the successors? The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following link. http://www.bodhiology.org/ On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw 11412 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hi, Sarah - I'll check "Buddhadhamma" again, which is where the reference came from, and I'll also check the Dhammapada as well. Perhaps Ven Payutto made an error. As I recall, somebody quoted a similar piece involving Sivaka from an entirely different source. (I think I may have commented on this at the time as an "oddity".) If I fail to get back to you on this soon (I'm a drop busy at the moment), please do remind me about it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/22/02 1:58:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I've been appreciating your discussion with Jon and I'm sure there are > many people here who share your understanding of Sat Sutta, 8fold path and > so on and will be glad if you continue to clarify your points. I think > it's very helpful for us all to discuss these areas and finetune. > > Anyway, that wasn't my purpose here;-) > > I just got round to checking your reference in the following post as I was > curious to follow this line. However, I can't find it under Dhp 276 which > is about the 8fold path;-) Neither is under the Pali ref. Maybe you could > kindly check it..sorry for the delay. > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11413 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: India Ch 3, no. 4 India Ch 3, no. 4 Cittas such as seeing or hearing arise within a series or process of cittas. When seeing experiences visible object, it arises in a process of cittas experiencing visible object through the eye-door, they are eye-door process cittas. Seeing does not like or dislike, it is not wholesome, kusala, nor unwholesome, akusala; it is citta that is result of kamma, of a wholesome or unwholesome deed performed in the past. Seeing is vipakacitta, citta that is result. Thus, seeing arises when the right conditions are present, and the rúpas which condition it are eyesense and colour or visible object. What occurs at this moment? Shouldn't we verify realities at this moment? There is seeing now, but no self who sees. Can we make seeing arise? It has arisen already because of conditions. Do we really consider and investigate this? We have to see, we have to hear, because there are conditions, no ³I² who can cause their arising. If we do not consider this again and again we cannot understand the meaning of anattå. Seeing is not the only citta arising in the eye-door process, there are other cittas that also experience visible object but perform each their own function. After seeing has fallen away, there are several more types of cittas and then kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise experiencing visible object in a wholesome or unwholesome way. When the sense-door process has ended a mind-door process of cittas arise that experience visible object. After that there may be other mind-door processes of cittas thinking of concepts. When we experience a sense object through one of the sense-doors we often react with attachment, lobha, when the object is pleasant, and with aversion, dosa, when the object is unpleasant. Let us consider our daily life. When we experience a disgusting odour, aversion can arise even before it is known what kind of odour it is. When a delicious morsel of food is on the tongue, attachment can arise even before knowing what kind of flavour it is. When we are sitting on a soft chair, the rupa that is softness may appear through the bodysense and attachment arises already, but we may not even realize that there is attachment. This may happen just now while we are sitting. Many moments of akusala cittas arise but we do not even notice them. Cittas arise extremely fast, it seems that many impressions occur all at the same time. But there are different realities each with their own characteristic. We should verify this so that we can understand, at least in theory, the rapidity of the cittas arising and falling away in processes, cittas which have no owner and cannot be controlled. They have the characteristic of non-self, anattå. We don't have to do anything special to cause the arising of lobha or dosa, they arise already because of their own conditions. After odour or flavour is experienced during the sense-door process it is experienced through the mind-door, and again there can be aversion or attachment. It is still not known what kind of odour or flavour it is. That is known afterwards in other mind-door processes which experience concepts. We can think of concepts with kusala citta or with akusala citta, but usually we think with akusala citta. When the objective of the cittas that think is not generosity, dåna, morality, síla or mental development, bhåvanå, they are akusala cittas. There is no person who is good or bad, wholesomeness and unwholesomeness are particular cetasikas arising because of conditions that perform their functions in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way. When we act, speak and think we can gradually find out that usually akusala cittas motivate deeds, speech and thinking. When we are stretching out our hands to take hold of things, when we walk or speak, cittas with attachment, lobha, are bound to arise. We like to speak, we speak with attachment or conceit. There are many degrees of akusala, they can be coarse or more subtle. also when we do not hurt others there may be akusala cittas, but we do not notice them. Even when we consider the Dhamma, there can be clinging to the idea of self who wishes to make progress in understanding. The Buddha spoke to the monks about síla, morality, under the aspect of restraint of the sense faculties (indriya samvara síla) by mindfulness of realities that are experienced through the six doors. At such moments one is not overwhelmed by defilements that may arise on account of what one experiences. The ³Visuddhimagga² (I, 42) quotes from the ³Middle Length Sayings (I, 27, Lesser Discourse on the Elephant¹s Footprint), explaining the virtue of restraint of the sense faculties as follows: ... On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the sign (nimitta) nor the particulars (anubyañjana) through which, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odour with the nose... On tasting a flavour with the tongue... On touching a tangible object with the body... On cognizing a mental object with the mind, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which, if he left the mind faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the mind faculty, undertakes the restraint of the mind faculty... We read in the ŒVisuddhimagga² (I, 54): ³Apprehends neither the signs²: he does not apprehend the sign (nimitta) of woman or man, or any sign that is a basis for defilement such as the sign of beauty, etc.: he stops at what is merely seen. ³Nor the particulars² (anubyañjana): he does not apprehend any aspect classed as hand, foot, smile, laughter, talk, looking ahead, lookind aside, etc., which has acquired the name ³particular² because of its particularizing defilements, because of its making them manifest themselves. He only apprehends what is really there... Further on the ³Visuddhimagga² (I,56) explains: ³He enters upon the way of its restraint: he enters upon the way of closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness.² Understanding of realities should be naturally developed, we should not force ourselves to ignore concepts and try to know realities such as seeing or hearing. When we are listening to music we may try to know the reality that is just sound, different from the concept of a whole, of a melody, but this is not the way to develop right understanding naturally. Then there would be attachment that obstructs the development of paññå. Direct understanding of a characteristic of a reality is already developed paññå, and how can we expect to have developed paññå in the beginning? ********* 11414 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: sad experiences Dear Christine, I am just as greedy as Sarah, she wrote exactly what I thought: we could all benefit if you would tell in what way the discussions helped in a difficult time. When we do not have sad experiences today, we sure will have them tomorrow, we cannot escape troubles, sickness and death. How I appreciate your determination and energy to make the long trip to Bgk. Do not hurry with your answer but I always appreciate what you write. Best wishes from Nina. 11415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: India Dear Betty, all those crowds in Varanasi, lots of hawkers, no rest. I was so impressed the first time I was there many years ago, with Phra Dhammadharo. He exclaimed with enthusiasm: exactly like the Buddha's time, nothing has changed. I found it all overwhelming. We can be reminded of dukkha: where are all those people going, where are we all going: to rebirth, and then, death again. You probably did not go to the holy places, because there it is quiet, no vendors there, it is forbidden. It is helpful to go with friends you can discuss dhamma with.This time I did not go around in Varanasi, but we had a lot of Dhamma talks with A. Sujin in the hotel. Lodewijk and I also had aversion when people were pushing so much near the buses, rather frightening, but all that is quickly forgotten. A. Sujin once explained: when you have dosa because of being pushed by a beggar girl, it is conditioned by conceit: how can she treat me like that? She is pushing me. Akusala arises because it is conditioned, but we should not take it too much to heart or find it too important. It arises and is then gone immediately. Sarah and I used to talk about it that we better not dwell too long on what is gone and create big stories out of it. Then we make the aversion worse. There are very few tourists nowadays and when poor people see buses or cars they come at once. Not all of them push or behave badly. Lodewijk bought souvenirs and had some nice conversation with them, they made him laugh. At all the holy sites we were sitting very quietly, having dhamma discussions, walking around. Savatthi is so peaceful, you can walk around quietly. It all depends where you are in India. Lodewijk and I always wish to return there, feel nostalgic about it. We talk about India almost every day, just like Jaran's father who also loves India. I do wish you will enjoy India next time. Best wishes from Nina. 11416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] four right efforts Dear Num, yes, when the four right efforts are lokiya they are not as strong as when they are lokuttara, but one thing is important: they are samma-padhanas when they accompany citta developing the Path, that is, satipatthana. When there is viriya with dana, it is not samma-padhana, this was discussed in India. Jon also asked whether all four of them perform their functions at the same time when the citta is not lokuttara, and A. Sujin answered , yes they do but they have not reached fulfillment as is the case when lokuttara citta arises. We have to consider ourselves: when there is awareness of a nama or rupa, is it not so that akusala is avoided, and overcome, that kusala is developed and maintained? These are four aspects, and the first and second seem so close, but there must be a reason that four samma padhanas are mentioned, not three. Take the first aspect: there are moments of kusala citta when you study and listen to the Dhamma, and then akusala citta has for that short while no opportunity, it is avoided. Then something happens, an unpleasant person enters the room, you are on the verge of losing your patience. But you remember that there are only nama and rupa arising because of conditions, there can be awareness of an unpleasant object and then akusala is overcome. How about this? op 21-02-2002 17:58 schreef srnsk op srnsk@a...: > << the > accompanying viriya is one or other of the 4 endeavours, depending on > the > circumstances giving rise to the citta, while at moment of supramundane > path consciousness the accompanying viriya performs the function f all 4 > endeavours.>>> > > Ahha, it makes more sense to me now, when you put in the mundane > and supramundane levels. Like in Sotapatimagga-citta moment, the > panna at that level completely eradicates (discards) micchaditthi and > viccikicca, so at that moment all four aspects of samma-viriya are in > there. Those two will not arise again (1), completely discard (2), moral > that has never arisen has arisen (3), and there can be only samma-ditthi > arises again and again (4), (my own version of interpretation). This will > be an ongoing thing until the moment of the last magga-citta. > > I also think that I can apply this to lokiya kusala. To me, even in lokiya > kusala moment, the viriya cetasika performs these four functions but in > a weaker intensity and degree. At kusala moment, akusla at least > momentary discards and somewhat temporary not arises. Kusala is > developed and it will be a condition for the future kusala. I mean not in > same intensity as in magga-citta. >The goal of listening and >reading are not just to memorize, but to see and understand the truth, >the 4 noble truths. To me, I see pariyatti and patipatti as the same >thing, not completely separated. Again, as I see it, understanding is the >key, not a wish or clinging to get a result. I find out that the tipitaka is >pretty much talking about the reality and truths in our bodies, here and >now. Nina: pariyatti , intellectual understanding, and patipatti, practice of satipatthana, are of different levels. I agree with what you wish to convey: the practice is necessary to really understand what is in the Tipitaka. Otherwise we are, as you said before, like a parrot. We could just say aloud the different texts, but no understanding. With appreciation of all your study, Nina. 11417 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Suan, The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over and over again. Any ideas? Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary > On The White Radiant Mind. > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > as follows. > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > aadimaaha." > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > chore became rather time-consumming. > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > I wanted to save time. > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > on this list. > > Happy downloading! > > Suan > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > figurative speech. > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > provided new information on the matter. > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > consciousness here. > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > fields of sciences. > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > bit longer. > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > arising from the same mental chain"? > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > general readers. > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > function of the successors? > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > link. > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > > 11418 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Robert Ep, I was able to access the bodhiology home page but it has a script error. However, the links were working and after being led from one link to another I finally came to the main body of the sub-subcommentary. Perhaps you can access it directly by clicking on the following link: http://www.bodhiology.org/journal/Main%20Body%20Of%20Anutika.htm Because it is a long address you may have to cut and paste it together. My machine doesn't have the particular Pali font needed to read the special Pali characters so I think most of us will not be able to properly see the Pali but at least the English part can be read. Best wishes, Jim Anderson > Dear Suan, > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over > and over again. > > Any ideas? > > Best, > Robert Ep. 11419 From: Mike Brotherton Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Robert, You are probably trying to open it with Netscape. I had the same thing happen to me. It DOES work if you open it with Explorer. Mindful lurker, Mike B. Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Suan, > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over > and over again. > > Any ideas? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ======= > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > > as follows. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > aadimaaha." > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > > I wanted to save time. > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > > on this list. > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > figurative speech. > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > consciousness here. > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > fields of sciences. > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > > bit longer. > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > > general readers. > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > > link. > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > Suan Lu Zaw 11420 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 4:31pm Subject: Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Dear All, Sarah and Nina asked me to write a little about the tragic events that occurred before I went to Bangkok, and something on a number of other questions triggered by my own and others reactions to those events, and what I am learning as a result......I think it will take a couple of posts......where I was a couple of weeks ago, is not where I am now. Interesting how pain concentrates the mind, and energises a search for easing the suffering (good old Crisis Theory)..........and it is daunting to expose how little or how inaccurate is my understanding.......so, anyone with anything to add, please do so, your comments will be most welcome and needed ....... The Events: Event 1. My daughter was very distressed at the ending of a close friendship with a young man for whom she cared deeply and thought would always be in her life. She thought her life was over, the colour had gone out of it. Three days later, she decided not to attend a birthday party for another friend, as she couldn't celebrate when she was feeling so miserable within herself. Many of her cohort from her old high school were at that party, including A......, the boy who took her to her first High-School Formal in her first long dress with her hair 'up', and H....... her best male friend. Both boys had been her friends and class-mates since they were all eleven years old in Primary School. ..... Though they were all now at different Universities or working, they all kept close contact. In the week before the party, H....... visited my daughter and they talked about their growing-up years, their friendship that never quite became anything more. They laughed and hugged, and said they would always love each other as friends. H........ said friendship was best, it would last their whole lives long and they would always be part of each others lives. He asked my daughter to help him write and 'perform' his speech at his 21st birthday next month, as they had known the same friends for the last ten years, half their life- times. And, he wanted to introduce her to his new girlfriend whom he thought would be "the keeper". (i.e. the one to marry). ------------------------ Event 2. At 3 a.m. in the morning after this Party that my daughter didn't attend, six of them were coming home in an overloaded car when another car smashed into them at speed, running a red light. A...... and a girl were killed instantly. H...... died three hours later, his parents said there was not a visible injury on him. One friend went to Intensive Care in a critical condition, and another had a fractured pelvis. Only H.......s' cousin was uninjured...physically, that is. He was driving. There were no witnesses. All were 20 years old. ----------------------------------- My daughter was shocked and almost inconsolable. I wanted to cancel the trip to Bangkok, but she was angrily adamant that I still continue with the plan. She said this tragedy proved that you can never know what the future holds, you can never plan, and that I should take every opportunity to do what I believe in and value, now. So - I went to Bangkok with very mixed feelings ........ and I had done no reading preparation or listed any questions for the Discussions. My mind was full of thoughts of Death, Suffering, Kamma and a new sensation - fear. If my daughter hadn't been feeling miserable (because of Event 1) and had gone to that Party, she would have been in that car sitting between her friends, H...... and A....... - I thought - where is there safety? where is there security? where is there meaning? Not just safety for myself and my family physically, but it occurred to me how vulnerable I was also - if anything should happen to any of them....... -------------------------------------- I was corresponding with a dhamma friend about other matters and mentioned what had happened. The friend was kind and helpful, and mentioned some instances in their own life and how they had handled things, and also mentioned suffering/attachment and detachment. I printed the Useful Posts on attachment (lobha) from dsg and read them on the plane to Bangkok. I took Ninas' books "Cetasikas" and "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" to read about Lobha. I found an article by Ven. K.S. Dhammananda called "Is Death really frightening?" which was suitable for my daughter. I also read "Death: A Buddhist Perspective" by Malcolm Huxter and I dug out a book I owned "Living in the Light of Death" by Larry Rosenberg. A book by a Samatha-Vipassana meditation teacher, teaching Death Awareness. A mixed bag - just what seemed pertinent and came easily to hand. Many of the writers valued Death-Contemplation ....... it certainly brings ones' attention to what is important in the here-and-now, and also an awareness that death comes inevitably closer every instant (with every breath, a friend said), and can come at any time. I searched for other teachings.....anything relevant.....anything that might help my daughter (and myself). Having been a Christian until a few years ago, I had conscientously brought both my son and daughter up to be Christians.......Church, Sunday School, Church Youth Groups, Confimation, Communion, Christian Schools. (So much energy expended going the wrong way....) I now had a different perspective on the events than I would have had as a Christian, but as yet was unable to articulate it convincingly even to myself. I wanted to find a bridge between my world view and that of my daughter..... I knew from my own experiences in Critical Incident, Trauma, and Grief Counselling that she would need immediate emotional first-aid, and then most support in the weeks and months following the funeral - when everyone had gone back to their own lives, and the boys seemed forgotten...... ------------------------------------ Now this is probably kid-stuff to most on this list, who have years and years of experience in Buddhism. And, no doubt, I also had read about attachment many times before - but it didn't mean very much to me until now....(How could I have not noticed that the whole world is pervaded with tanha, lobha, raga and any of its other names?) I think it was in coming to Buddhism from a religion where 'God is Love' and 'Love your neighbour as yourself' and the greatest virtue was 'to love', and the greatest crime was 'not to love' ........and then living in a world that revolves around acquisition of things and people, it is hard to quickly come to an understanding about Attachment. Isn't it attachment to persons that adds delight, excitement, richness, spice and flavour to life? Should life just be bland tasteless unsalted porridge? Looking up the meaning in "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" by Nyanatiloka Mahathera, I found the main meaning was listed under Tanha (craving or thirst) - so MANY kinds of tanha, (the 8th link in the paticcasamuppada) and with other meanings under Lobha (attachment), Raga (lust or greed) and abhijjha (covetousness). Whatever I was reading after the 'accident', I kept coming across the statement that the cause of our grief and sorrow is Attachment in all its various forms. If we want to overcome sorrow, we have to give up attachment - attachment not only to persons but also to possessions...... Attachment was the cause of sorrow - "the chief root of suffering, and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths." So, within the perspective of unending re-births, attachment begins to look a little less attractive, a little less harmless, a lot more powerful, a lot harder to identify, so well disguised from detection........ ------------- On the plane, random memories of my reading about death in the scriptures arose, Two stories stuck uncomfortably in my memory where the Buddha had acted in a ways I find difficult to understand; I know that obviously cultural and legal differences (and my ignorance) come into play. The first was the story of how the Buddha auctioned the corpse of Sirima the Courtesan......which seems, well...., horrifyingly brutal...I could only read it once..... not gentle and kind, and the second was the well-known story of Kisagotami, which does not fit with what I hear daily of the needs of grieving parents where there are still-born or neo-natal baby deaths. (indeed, the Emergency Response Mental Health Team would have quickly attended to any young mother carrying a dead child from house to house in my area, wanting to borrow mustard seeds and asking who had died in the house. She would have legally regulated, medicated and hospitalised with some diagnosis - perhaps depression). Possibly even charged by police with 'interfering with a dead body'.......... And I thought - What is this compassion? Is it really seeking of your own particular goal for an individual, what you - think is best for them - rather than immediate comfort, support and kindness? And detachment is encouraged - with connotations of remaining aloof from the world and suffering. How is this different from apathy, indifference? Shouldn't compassion be a 'doing' thing?........ This is probably how I was up until I arrived in Bangkok, full of strong emotions and questions, to people who would view all of this from a wider perspective, and who would speak the truth to me........ Hope to add more of what I learned and came to understand soon........ metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Chris, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > Sweet Revenge ..... can this be regarded as an abuse of power by the > > moderators? > > I will be happy to expand on my previous post, but will need to take > > a little while - the day I arrived back my brother was unexpectedly > > admitted to hospital - hopefully home tomorrow. > > I sincerely hope he's OK....you've certainly been having a few tests > lately.... I'm just reflecting on K.Sujin's reminders about thinking > about/helping the others with kusala (no translation;-) instead of > dwelling on one's own unpleasant feelings as can happen so easily..... > > Please don't you or anyone ever feel any hurry or need at all to reply to > anything I say here... > > > I don't wonder why bad things happen, but why they are happening in > > clusters........ > > I think it comes back to those complex conditions that kom explained so > well..remember his weather analogy? Remember too, that the 'things' are > just momentary vipaka (results of kamma) followed by kusala and akusala > accumulations..... > > The only 'folk-wisdom' / 'superstition' explanation > > people keep telling me is that 'You'll be O.K. now, bad things come > > in threes' ...... Depends where they're counting from, I > > suppose...... > > In any language, i hope you get a good rest and break this weekend and > that your brother and other family members do too. > > metta, > Sarah > ======== 11421 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind You were right. I got there with no problem. Thanks much. Best, Robert Ep. =========== --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Robert Ep, > > I was able to access the bodhiology home page but it has a script error. > However, the links were working and after being led from one link to another > I finally came to the main body of the sub-subcommentary. Perhaps you can > access it directly by clicking on the following link: > > http://www.bodhiology.org/journal/Main%20Body%20Of%20Anutika.htm > > Because it is a long address you may have to cut and paste it together. My > machine doesn't have the particular Pali font needed to read the special > Pali characters so I think most of us will not be able to properly see the > Pali but at least the English part can be read. > > Best wishes, > Jim Anderson > > > Dear Suan, > > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a > second, > > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This > happens over > > and over again. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 11422 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Hi Jon, you wrote: "necessary i.e., indispensable*, factors in the development of insight I was curious, what are the necessary and indispensable factors in the development of insight? thanks, Larry 11423 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Christine, I look forward to your answers to the provocative questions you raised. My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in any literal sense is a myth. metta, Larry 11424 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:05pm Subject: a taste of nibbana? Greetings DSG, What do you think? Can a taste of nibbana be found in any cessation, such as the cessation of a "round" of breath, in and out, or the cessation of a feeling, a thought, an impulse, or a sensory sensation? just curious, Larry 11425 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:10pm Subject: Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow Dear Christine and all, From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.....The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind) We may think of death as aberrant and prefer not to think about it. However, the Buddha explained that because of birth then decay and death, sorrow, lamentation and pain all arise. And is this not the truth; we are born into this strange world, and live our short or long, pleasant or painful lives and then die. For every moment that arises intricate conditions are needed. In the sutta above we read "On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises". This aspect of the Paticcasamuppada is happening now while looking at the computer screen but we tend to take it for granted. Yet the eye-base (cakkhupasada) is a special type of matter conditioned by kamma of the past. If that kamma should cease or be obstructed then this type of matter cannot arise and thus there would be no seeing. Also the visible object is conditioned: at this moment the object is words about Dhamma and so the eye consciousness is the result of good kamma. If the words are properly contemplated now we make new good kamma - and this is another link, sankhara, in the wheel of Paticcasamuppada. These links are evanescent and happening so fast: The Sammohavinodani (by Buddhaghosa- translated as The Dispeller of Delusion, Pali Text society)p244 "and now, because this structure of conditions exists not only in a plurality of consciousnesses but also in a single consciousness, he said avijjapaccaya sankharo (with ignorance as condition, a formation arises) and so on thus setting forth the shedule in order to teach, as to its various aspects, the structure of conditions of a single conscious moment"endquote. There are about 19 pages explaining how the whole paticcasamupada can be seen in such a short time. Knowing more about these fragile moments, I feel that it is a little miracle each time I wake up in the morning, or remember someone's name or experience colour or sound. It seems certain, and not so far away, that one day this life must cease. Sadness too seems very normal, another conditioned dhamma, that must arise because of attachment. Perhaps, as good Buddhists, knowing that sorrow and attachment are akusala (unwholesome), we become concerned to stop aversion, including sorrow. And it is true that if there is understanding at any link of the wheel - for example, if seeing is known as seeing then attachment and sorrow cannot arise. However, all of us have accumulated much attachment over such a long time that it must be expected that it occurs sometimes. Even Anathapindika , a leading lay disiple and sotapanna, had sorrow. Book 1, 13 of the Dhammapada-athakatha (trans. Burlingame PTS edition p.242.)In this the youngest daughter of Anathapindika, Sumana died. She was already a sakagami but she had been unable to find a husband. She was gradually overwhemled with disapointment over this and refusing to eat [or unable to eat] she lay in her bed, ill. While Anathapindika was at her bed she called him "younger brother" and then died. Anathapindika (sotapanna) went to the Buddha: "Although the treasurer had obtained the Fruit of conversion he was unable to bear the grief that arose within him. Accordingly when he funeral rites over his daughters body he went weeping to the teacher. Said the teacher 'householder how is it that you come to me sad and sorrowful, with tears in your eyes weeping?'" Anathapindika explained that what worried him most of all was that his dughter "died raving incoherently" [called him 'younger brother']. The Buddha explained that this was because she was already sakadagami while anathapindika was sotapanna and that she had been reborn in a deva world. Now both Sumana and Anathapindika had attained stages of enlightenment and had thus penetrated the Paticcasamuppada to the degree that they had completely eliminated the three types of upadana (clinging) based on wrong view. However, they hadn't yet eradicted the sensuous clinging and so attachment and sorrow kept arising. It is also interesting that a sotapanna did not know that his own daughter was already enlightened - and even believed that she temporarily deranged. So hard is it to know who is truly wise: If we judge people from their behaviour we can say 'he looks always calm' But looks can be deceiving. Often we are not even aware of our own defilements and mistake subtle clinging for calmness. Then again sometimes someone may be agitated and yet still be accumulating some wisdom. Cittas (mindstates) are changing fast. In between moments with akusala cittas(unwholesome moments) panna(wisdom) and sati can be popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality, some aspect of Paticcasamupada. robert 11426 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Larry, This is an interesting comment.......I understand you to mean 'truly graspable' in the sense that nothing can be controlled, kept as it is, owned and stopped from changing - whether a relationship or an object. Hope I've taken your meaning correctly.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in > any literal sense is a myth. > > metta, Larry 11427 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, ... > My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in > any literal sense is a myth. I think you've put your finger on a crucial point here, Larry. As I understand the Buddha's teaching, all dhammas (realities) are impermanent and so intrinsically not worth grasping at. However, because we do not see dhammas as they really are (= avijja/ignorance), we find them 'grasp-worthy'. The only way to eradicate attachment altogether is to develop the insight that sees dhammas as they really are (i.e., not grasp-worthy) (= vipassana). With the development of this insight, attachment is eradicated in stages beginning at the time of stream entry; prior to that, however, attachment will continue to find all kinds of dhammas grasp-worthy in all ways. Because only developed insight can eradicate kilesa, any attempts at 'dealing with' kilesa will have only a palliative effect and then just for the short term. However, with confidence in the power of panna/insight to eradicate akusala in due course, one is not tempted to pursue shorter term solutions. Jon 11428 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Ken, What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself with the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for references. Regards, Victor Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 Bhikkhu Sutta The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or defined. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute." "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief?" "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. "If one stays obsessed with feeling... "If one stays obsessed with perception... "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. [3] "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have said in brief." "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. "If one stays obsessed with feeling... "If one stays obsessed with perception... "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should be seen." Then the monk, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became another one of the arahants. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Notes 1. The obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12. [Go back] 2. See SN XXIII.2 [Go back] 3. See MN 72 [Go back] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-036.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 Samanupassana Sutta Assumptions Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. "He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. And so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the appearance of the five faculties -- eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch). "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient.' "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html > Hi Victor, > > All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a > Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we > need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release > ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, > what we are doing now are just plain attachment. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, > > > > I will put your question aside as I see it leads to self-view, which > > in turn leads to dukkha, does not lead to the cessation of dukkha. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > > Hi Victor > > > > > > Then what are you? If these five aggregates are not what you are, > > would > > > you like to tell me what are you compose of. In the same way, that > > is how > > > Buddhaghosa said that there is no being, bc that is not what they > > are. Is > > > it the same as what you have said below. > > > > > > Be it conventional or ultimate definition, as you always also > > said "this > > > is not I" is the basis for Buddhaghosa argument for no existence of > > > beings. He is not here to defend for himself now, I believe he is > > not an > > > extremist, to me, he is just stating a fact. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > Ken O 11429 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary :To Robert Epstein Dear Robert How are you? After having read your message regarding the problem with the bodhiology website, I checked it just now. It seems to be working, though. But, you may also be right. The bodhiology website I saw just now is on the servers in Canberra, in Australia. I have transferred this website to new servers in the US about ten days ago. Currently, the new servers are sufferring Denial of Service Attack, according to the US technicians. Therefore, I cannot receive the domain e-mails currently. As I still have the service of the Canberra servers (expire in late March), I discovered that the Search Engines still let me see the old website despite domain delegation and domain propagation being already performed. While I am writing this message, I was clicking every link on the website. I found that all are working. So, my guess is that the "Cannot find the website" message you received might be to do with some peak activities in your Dial-up ISP. Thank you for reporting the problems with the website. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Suan, > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over > and over again. > > Any ideas? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ======= > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub- subcommentary > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub- subcommentary. > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > > as follows. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > aadimaaha." > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > > I wanted to save time. > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > > on this list. > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > figurative speech. > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > consciousness here. > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > fields of sciences. > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > > bit longer. > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > > general readers. > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > > link. > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > > > > > > 11430 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary : Dear Suan, I have just had the pleasure of reading your articles about luminous mind at your website. Finally, thanks to your comments about children/parents etc I understand what the Tika and commentaries were getting at with this simile. One point: where you say that lower realms bhavanga can't be considered luminous because it is akusala vipaka citta. I can see that this might be so , but since vipaka is only of one jati- whether kusala or akusala - couldn't it also be that the bhavanga in all realms are considered as 'luminous'? An extremly minor point, I know, and I ask only out of shear curiosity . best wishes robert 11431 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:20am Subject: India Ch 4, no 1 India Ch 4, n. 1 A Long Way to go Paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities, are all that appears now. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, and the other sense-cognitions that experience sense objects appear in our daily life, also at this moment. They each have their own characteristic that is unchangeable and that is true for everybody. We can verify this when they appear and this is what the Buddha taught time and again. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, Salåyatana vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Third Fifty, Ch 5, §152, Is there a method) that the Buddha said: ³Is there, monks, any method by following which a monk, apart from belief, apart from inclination, apart from hearsay, apart from argument as to method, apart from reflection on reasons, apart from delight in speculation, could affirm insight thus: ³Ended is birth, lived is the righteous life, done is the task, for life in these conditions there is no hereafter¹?² ³For us, lord, things have their root in the Exalted One... Hearing it from him the monks will remember it.² ³There is indeed a method, monks, by following which a monk...could affirm insight... And what is that method? Herein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and illusion, thus: ŒI have lust (råga), malice (dosa) and illusion (moha),¹ or thus: ŒI have not lust, malice and illusion.¹ Now as to that recognition of their existence or non-existence within him, are these conditions, I ask, to be understood by belief, or inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation?² ³Surely not, lord.² ³Are not these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?² ³Surely lord.² ³Then, monks, this is the method by following which, apart from belief... a brother could affirm insight thus: ŒEnded is birth... for life in these conditions there is no hereafter.¹ Again, as to hearing a sound with the ear... smelling a scent with the nose, tasting a savour with the tongue... contacting a tangible with the body... cognizing a mental object with the mind.... is that recognition to be understood by belief, or inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation? Are not these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?² ³Surely lord.² ³Then, monks, this is the method by following which a monk, apart from belief... affirm insight.² Insight refers here to arahatship, according to the Commentary, the ³Såratthappakåsiní². One can attain arahatship with this method, that is, developing understanding of realities appearing through the senses and the mind-door. In all the holy sites we visited Acharn Sujin explained about the way to develop understanding of the realities that appear at this moment. She stressed the difference between thinking of terms and words denoting realities and the direct awareness of nåma and rúpa, the development of satipatthåna. She reminded us that we need patience to listen to the Dhamma, to consider it and to develop right understanding of realities. We have a long way to go in order to see realities as they are. On the basis of her explanations and our discussions I would like to deal with some points stressed by Acharn Sujin and often raised by others. We may know in theory that seeing sees what is visible, visible object, but it seems that we see people all the time. We usually think of concepts with ignorance and clinging, we are totally absorbed in them. Only through the development of direct awareness of realities can we prove that what the Buddha taught about the phenomena of our life is the truth. However, we need a firm foundation knowledge of paramattha dhammas so that we can verify the truth of these phenomena. Acharn Sujin stressed many times that there are three levels of the understanding of the Dhamma: the level of study, pariyatti, the level of practice, patipatti and the level of direct realization of the truth, pativedha. Pariyatti is the firm foundation knowledge that can be a condition for patipatti, the practice or development of direct understanding. If we only think about it that citta, cetasika and rúpa are impermanent and that they arise and fall away, it is theoretical understanding that stems from listening to the teachings. Through the development of satipatthåna, which is the practice, can the truth of what the Buddha taught be directly realized. The aim of the study of the teachings should be direct understanding of the dhammas appearing at this moment. 11432 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo Dear Azita, thank you for your encouragement. You may know that on Robert K's Web (abhidhamma vipassana) are Phra Dhammadaro's talks in Adelaid I received in handwriting and then typed and edited. In these his voice still rings out clear and loud. Best wishes from Nina. op 22-02-2002 01:02 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > For many months I listened to the Ven. Dhammadharo's > talks at Wat Pleng in BK. We discussed > nama,rupa,citta,cetasika,kusala,akusala endlessly. His > name came up in an earlier post and I felt quite sad > and yes, very alone, when I remembered him and his > wonderful ability to teach Dhamma so clearly. I met > K. Sujin thro. Ven. Dhammadaro. and now I'm so glad > to have found this again. Thank you heaps,Nina, for > your excellant writings. > A Anumodana, from Azita-used-to-be-Helen. 11433 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Christine, Yes, by "not truly graspable" I meant physically nothing is really attached to anything else, nothing grasps with a hand or a heart anything else, and also concepts, emotions, and relationships don't actually grasp or encompass anything. So what is attachment but a phantom gasping? Just an idle thought, best regards, Larry ------------------ Christine wrote: Hi Larry, This is an interesting comment.......I understand you to mean 'truly graspable' in the sense that nothing can be controlled, kept as it is, owned and stopped from changing - whether a relationship or an object. Hope I've taken your meaning correctly.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi Christine, My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in any literal sense is a myth. metta, Larry 11434 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Jon, you wrote: "The only way to eradicate attachment altogether is to develop the insight that sees dhammas as they really are (i.e., not grasp-worthy) (= vipassana)." I agree, but this is an intricate and delicate process. As Christine asked in so many words, who wants to abandon all their values? The point I was going for was something I picked up in abhidhamma studies. How do you grasp or attach-to a citta or even a rupa? Impossible. Coincidentally I had been looking for desire in all the wrong places, i.e. any kind of unpleasant reaction. It was rather amazing that I found it there, and finding desire in suffering seemed to unravel the dense compoundedness of the "suffering", actually very trivial. Further research is necessary, but I think this is relevant to "attachment". How do you say "best wishes" in Chinese? Larry 11435 From: michael newton Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:20:00 +0100 >Dear Nina; Just received a email from the Ven.Srivasti Dhammika(Australian monk)who was on Sri Lanka at the time you and Khun Sujin gave your talks.He was a close friend of Phra Dhammadaro,and the 3 of us had many dhammic discussions together.Dhammika told me in his email,last week,that after Dhammadaro left the robes,he got involved with I believe refugees near Laotian border and was travelling in a jeep with his mother I believe,and it overturned,both dieing instantly,is this correct,or am I wrong-feel saddened by this-but Phra Dhammadaro,was one of the most inspiring monks,that opened my eyes to many things,as I remember him,on on your Dhamma Study Group website-there is a excerpt of a question and answer session there.It's good.Trying to get Ven.Dhammika and Akasa Levy my Dharma friends from the 70's in Sri Lanka to join this group.Let me at least give you the email addresses.For Ven.Dhammika-it's pitijoy@y...(website is www.buddhanet.net-where Ven.Dhammika's books are written in the form of pdf files that might take a little while to download) The Ven.Punyavaro is the webmaster of www.buddhanet.com.and he can be contacted as well.It's a down under-Australian buddhist website-pretty impressive.Well put together.Akasa Levi is at akasalevi@m... and is involved in leading buddhist group in the Los Angeles area.Just wanted to share my thoughts with you.Can't stop thinking about Phra Dhamadaro(formerly)YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL(ALOKANANDA formally) >Dear Azita, thank you for your encouragement. You may know that now> on Robert K's Web (abhidhamma vipassana) are Phra Dhammadaro's talks >in >Adelaid I received in handwriting and then typed and edited. In these his >voice still rings out clear and loud. >Best wishes from Nina. > >op 22-02-2002 01:02 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > > > For many months I listened to the Ven. Dhammadharo's > > talks at Wat Pleng in BK. We discussed > > nama,rupa,citta,cetasika,kusala,akusala endlessly. His > > name came up in an earlier post and I felt quite sad > > and yes, very alone, when I remembered him and his > > wonderful ability to teach Dhamma so clearly. I met > > K. Sujin thro. Ven. Dhammadaro. and now I'm so glad > > to have found this again. Thank you heaps,Nina, for > > your excellant writings. > > A Anumodana, from Azita-used-to-be-Helen. > > > > 11436 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 7:59pm Subject: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Dear All, Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher morality)? I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are all responsible somehow........ I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of progressing).......... Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation of kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu - water-element? I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old (jara). metta, Christine 11437 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Howard Thanks for coming back on a post which you probably strongly disagreed with. To 'back up' slightly, it might be useful to this thread to consider the difference (if any) between *direct knowledge of dhammas/realties* and *observation of realities/dhammas*. By observation of realities I am referring to a kind of directed attention or volitional (i.e., deliberate) action, whereby one contemplates what is happening internally at the present moment (for example, if there is mind with anger, then one observes mind with anger). It might be directed to a particular aspect of the present moment (e.g., feelings), or it might be directed to just whatever presents itself at the present moment. Now, I would suggest (and I suspect this is where we depart), that such directed attention as described so far may or may not be kusala. It seems to me that a person could do all this yet still with a strong idea of self etc. Now you would no doubt say that if the person understands the teachings on not-self etc, and he/she is observing the realities with a view to seeing them in those terms, this should be kusala. Respectfully, I would have to disagree. I don't think kusala can be stirred up so easily. And unless we we have already developed a knowledge of the characteristic of kusala and akusala that allows us to tell to a fine degree whether the consciousness is one or the other, I don't see how we could ever be sure. I guess what I am saying here is that I believe we should never assume or infer the kusala nature of a mind moment from the general circumstances of the moment (i.e., I'm focussing on realities, it must be kusala; the mind is so much quieter than normal, this must be what is meant by tranquillity, etc.). This seems to ignore the extremely subtle and pervasive nature of akusala. Well, I haven't dealt with the *direct knowledge* scenario, but perhaps I've said enough controversial things for one post! I look forward to your well-considered comments as usual, Howard. Jon PS Apologies for any incorrectness in the position I have attributed to you in this discussion. It is based on my best reading of your posts! --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - .... > > In my previous reply to this post I pointed out how in the > Satipatthana > > Sutta the Noble Eightfold Path is given as a ‘mind-object’ to be > known as > > it really is. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand mind-objects to include thoughts, ideas, and > concepts (as > well as emotions, dispositions, etc) > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Specifically, as regards the Four Noble Truths, the sutta says: > > ‘A monk abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in respect > of > > the Four Noble Truths. > > How does he do so? > > Here, a monk knows as it really is: “This is sufferingâ€?; > > he knows as it really is: “This is the origin of sufferingâ€?; > > he knows as it really is: “This is the cessation of sufferingâ€?; > > he knows as it really is: “This is the way of practice leading to > the > > cessation of suffering.â€? > > > > The last of these (the 4th Noble Truth) is of course the Noble > Eightfold > > Path. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is an idea, and it is contemplated as such, or so it seems to > me. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I believe you see the Noble Eightfold Path as a series of separately > > occurring factors to be developed individually (now right effort, now > > right concentration, now right view etc). It's not clear to me how, > under > > such a scenario, the *path-as-comprising-all-8-factors* could ever be > a > > ‘mind-object’, that is to say, the object of a single moment of > > consciousness, capable of being ‘known as it really is’. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Where in this sutta, or in any other, does it say anything about > the > path being contemplated in a single mind-moment? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > (It could of> > > course be an object of thinking, as a concept â€" but concepts have no > > quality (sabhava) by which they can be known as they really are). > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The key word was 'contemplate', as in "contemplating > mind-objects". To > contemplate is to think about, mull over, analyze with the mind. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > If, on the other hand, the Noble Eightfold Path is understood to be a > > moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga citta) comprising all > 8 > > factors arising together, then that moment (or a moment of mundane > insight > > comprising 5 of the same factors) can clearly be ‘known as it really > is’. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand it so. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > My point is, then, that the inclusion of the Noble Eightfold Path as > one > > of the mind-objects of satipatthana supports the interpretation of the > > Path as describing a single moment of consciousness, rather than as > > separately occurring factors to be developed individually. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not as I see it. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Such a moment can accurately be described in terms of the description > of > > the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path contained in the passage from > the > > sutta (your post below). > > > > Jon > > > ================================== > With metta, > Howard 11438 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Geez, Christine, What you are lost in is....lost in Pali. hee hee.....I hope you're having fun, you know more Pali now than I will probably ever manage. As for your wonderment at seeing how 'defiled' you are [not you really, really just the kandhas associated with your name, body, etc.], I would say congratulations. the difference between someone on the path and not on the path is that those not on the path don't realize what a bag of imperfect 'stuff' they're made up of. If your realize this, you're in good shape, primed for progress. Since discernment is the name of the game, what you are seeing so far is probably a good start. When you see each detail just as it is, without reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even better shape, but by then you'll probably be an arahat. Love, Robert Ep. ==================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > morality)? > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are > all responsible somehow........ > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > progressing).......... > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > of > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > - > water-element? > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > (jara). > > metta, > Christine 11439 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Yes, by "not truly graspable" I meant physically nothing is really > attached to anything else, nothing grasps with a hand or a heart > anything else, and also concepts, emotions, and relationships don't > actually grasp or encompass anything. So what is attachment but a > phantom gasping? Or is it more like an actual grasping at a phantom object? 11440 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary :To Robert Epstein Dear Suan, hmmnnn....well, the denial of service idea makes sense to me, because I would see the website loaded for a moment, and then it would be taken away and transferred to a 'not available' page. maybe it's fixed now. best, Robert Ep. ====== --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > Dear Robert > > How are you? > > After having read your message regarding the problem with the > bodhiology website, I checked it just now. It seems to be working, > though. > > But, you may also be right. > > The bodhiology website I saw just now is on the servers in Canberra, > in Australia. > > I have transferred this website to new servers in the US about ten > days ago. Currently, the new servers are sufferring Denial of Service > Attack, according to the US technicians. Therefore, I cannot receive > the domain e-mails currently. > > As I still have the service of the Canberra servers (expire in late > March), I discovered that the Search Engines still let me see the old > website despite domain delegation and domain propagation being > already performed. > > While I am writing this message, I was clicking every link on the > website. I found that all are working. > > So, my guess is that the "Cannot find the website" message you > received might be to do with some peak activities in your Dial-up ISP. > > Thank you for reporting the problems with the website. > > With regards, > > Suan > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Suan, > > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it > for a second, > > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. > This happens over > > and over again. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ======= > > > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub- > subcommentary > > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub- > subcommentary. > > > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers > to > > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by > the > > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. > Ten±ha– > > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma > vaººadh±tuya* > > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the > funny > > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English > alphabets > > > as follows. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa > vanno > > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti > patikkhipitvaa > > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > > aadimaaha." > > > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, > the > > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 > with > > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali > fonts, I > > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups > because > > > I wanted to save time. > > > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted > here > > > on this list. > > > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the > Suttam > > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > > figurative speech. > > > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' > as > > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this > definition, I > > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. > I > > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > > consciousness here. > > > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. > This > > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator > to > > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received > their > > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > > fields of sciences. > > > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the > need to > > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different > type of > > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern > general > > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression > a > > > bit longer. > > > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the > behavior > > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided > by > > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further > exploration > > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for > modern > > > general readers. > > > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors > the > > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the > following > > > link. > > > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Suan Lu Zaw 11441 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Dear Victor, I appreciate the quoted Suttas. They are quite good, and quite clear on the subject of identifying with or clinging to the kandhas. I notice that the Buddha never does directly tackle the question of 'is there a true self?' or 'if the self is not the kandhas what is it?' He merely states that 1/ the perceptual faculties are *not* annihilated, but continue to function in enlightenement; and 2/ the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one who is liberated. I find this very fascinating, as my deluded mind keeps wanting an *answer* to the question of self. It occurs to me that this desire for an answer to the question of self is another example of 'self' and that this qualifies as a delusion. If the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one, then the question of self is no longer a problem, is it? I don't mean this to be the case with one to whom the question of self has never arisen in the first place. But to a spiritual seeker, obsessed with either the eradication of 'self', the denial of 'self', or the spiritual resolution of 'self'; to drop the subject of self and be content with the state of being that is given, would be a transcendence of attachment and clinging to self. Best, he who is called Robert Ep. [at least around here] =============== --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Ken, > > What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself with > the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for > references. > > Regards, > Victor > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 > Bhikkhu Sutta > The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the > aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because > the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, > interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into > the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't > feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or > defined. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, > having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said > to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from > the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & > resolute." > "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one > doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one > isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." > > "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" > > "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said > in brief?" > > "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. [3] > > "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have said > in brief." > > "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the > detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. > > "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. > > "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should be > seen." > > Then the monk, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, got > up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, > keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling alone, > secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained > in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth > from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here > & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. > There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became > another one of the arahants. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Notes > 1. The obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of > resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the > obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the > obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12. [Go back] > > 2. See SN XXIII.2 [Go back] > > 3. See MN 72 [Go back] > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-036.html > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 > Samanupassana Sutta > Assumptions > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives or > priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five > clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the case > where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble > ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard > for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- > assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or > form as in the self, or the self as in form. > "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or > feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. > > "He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, > or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. > > "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing > fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in > fabrications. > > "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing > consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in > consciousness. > > "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. And > so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the > appearance of the five faculties -- eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the > senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch). > > "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is > the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, > touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the > thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient > nor non-percipient.' > > "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them > the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives > rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of > clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall > not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be > percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be > neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html > > > > > Hi Victor, > > > > All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a > > Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we > > need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release > > ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, > > what we are doing now are just plain attachment. > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > Ken O > > > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, > > > > > > I will put your question aside as I see it leads to self-view, which > > > in turn leads to dukkha, does not lead to the cessation of dukkha. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: 11442 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Dear Christine, I'm working my way backwards through posts, and was just shocked to read about the tragic events in your and your daughter's life. I'm sorry you had to go through that. It is true this life is full of sufferings, and we have all had our share, but none of what you talked about seemed like 'kid stuff' to me. I think your balance in the midst of all this is admirable and shows some real steadiness in your understanding of the teachings you have been working so hard with. By a strange coincidence, a friend from Australia just sent me a CD with lectures by Ajahn Bhramavamso on Theravada and meditation. He told one story which some here may be familiar with about the Buddha and a woman who came to him. I thought it pointed out beautifully that the most desperate events in our lives can sometimes strengthen our involvement with the Dhamma. He spoke of a woman who had had the worst possible tragedies befall her all at once during the time of the Buddha. Her husband had been killed and she was trying to go visit her father with her two children. A terrible storm wound up killing both children and on the road she received news that her father had also died in the storm. She went totally mad and wandered around naked from her own encounter with the flood for days. Eventually by karmic conditions she wandered in this state into the grove where the Buddha was teaching his disciples. Those guarding the periphery wanted to keep her out, but the Buddha saw what was happening and told them to let her in. He gave her a cloak to cover herself with and gave her a place to sit and receive the teachings. With nothing left of her former life, within a short period of time she reached full enlightenment and became an arahat. I just thought that at this particular moment when I have been thinking about this story, that you might want to hear about it. I'm very sorry for you having to have gone through the current circumstances, and also wish your daughter the very best. Best, Robert Ep. ======================================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Sarah and Nina asked me to write a little about the tragic events > that occurred before I went to Bangkok, and something on a number of > other questions triggered by my own and others reactions to those > events, and what I am learning as a result......I think it will take > a couple of posts......where I was a couple of weeks ago, is not > where I am now. Interesting how pain concentrates the mind, and > energises a search for easing the suffering (good old Crisis > Theory)..........and it is daunting to expose how little or how > inaccurate is my understanding.......so, anyone with anything to add, > please do so, your comments will be most welcome and needed ....... > > The Events: > Event 1. My daughter was very distressed at the ending of a close > friendship with a young man for whom she cared deeply and thought > would always be in her life. She thought her life was over, the > colour had gone out of it. > > Three days later, she decided not to attend a birthday party for > another friend, as she couldn't celebrate when she was feeling so > miserable within herself. Many of her cohort from her old high > school were at that party, including A......, the boy who took her > to her first High-School Formal in her first long dress with her > hair 'up', and H....... her best male friend. Both boys had been her > friends and class-mates since they were all eleven years old in > Primary School. ..... Though they were all now at different > Universities or working, they all kept close contact. In the week > before the party, H....... visited my daughter and they talked about > their growing-up years, their friendship that never quite became > anything more. They laughed and hugged, and said they would always > love each other as friends. H........ said friendship was best, it > would last their whole lives long and they would always be part of > each others lives. He asked my daughter to help him write > and 'perform' his speech at his 21st birthday next month, as they had > known the same friends for the last ten years, half their life- > times. And, he wanted to introduce her to his new girlfriend whom > he thought would be "the keeper". (i.e. the one to marry). > ------------------------ > Event 2. At 3 a.m. in the morning after this Party that my daughter > didn't attend, six of them were coming home in an overloaded car > when another car smashed into them at speed, running a red light. > A...... and a girl were killed instantly. H...... died three hours > later, his parents said there was not a visible injury on him. One > friend went to Intensive Care in a critical condition, and another > had a fractured pelvis. Only H.......s' cousin was > uninjured...physically, that is. He was driving. There were no > witnesses. All were 20 years old. > ----------------------------------- > My daughter was shocked and almost inconsolable. I wanted to cancel > the trip to Bangkok, but she was angrily adamant that I still > continue with the plan. She said this tragedy proved that you can > never know what the future holds, you can never plan, and that I > should take every opportunity to do what I believe in and value, now. > > So - I went to Bangkok with very mixed feelings ........ and I had > done no reading preparation or listed any questions for the > Discussions. My mind was full of thoughts of Death, Suffering, Kamma > and a new sensation - fear. If my daughter hadn't been feeling > miserable (because of Event 1) and had gone to that Party, she > would have been in that car sitting between her friends, H...... and > A....... - I thought - where is there safety? where is there > security? where is there meaning? Not just safety for myself and my > family physically, but it occurred to me how vulnerable I was also - > if anything should happen to any of them....... > -------------------------------------- > I was corresponding with a dhamma friend about other matters and > mentioned what had happened. The friend was kind and helpful, and > mentioned some instances in their own life and how they had handled > things, and also mentioned suffering/attachment and detachment. I > printed the Useful Posts on attachment (lobha) from dsg and read > them on the plane to Bangkok. I took Ninas' books "Cetasikas" > and "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" to read about Lobha. I found an > article by Ven. K.S. Dhammananda called "Is Death really > frightening?" which was suitable for my daughter. > I also read "Death: A Buddhist Perspective" by Malcolm Huxter and I > dug out a book I owned "Living in the Light of Death" by Larry > Rosenberg. A book by a Samatha-Vipassana meditation teacher, teaching > Death Awareness. > A mixed bag - just what seemed pertinent and came easily to hand. > Many of the writers valued Death-Contemplation ....... it certainly > brings ones' attention to what is important in the here-and-now, and > also an awareness that death comes inevitably closer every instant > (with every breath, a friend said), and can come at any time. > I searched for other teachings.....anything > relevant.....anything that might help my daughter (and myself). > Having been a Christian until a few years ago, I had conscientously > brought both my son and daughter up to be Christians.......Church, > Sunday School, Church Youth Groups, Confimation, Communion, Christian > Schools. (So much energy expended going the wrong way....) > I now had a different perspective on the events than I would have had > as a Christian, but as yet was unable to articulate it convincingly > even to myself. I wanted to find a bridge between my world view and > that of my daughter..... I knew from my own experiences in Critical > Incident, Trauma, and Grief Counselling that she would need > immediate emotional first-aid, and then most support in the weeks and > months following the funeral - when everyone had gone back to their > own lives, and the boys seemed forgotten...... > ------------------------------------ > Now this is probably kid-stuff to most on this list, who have years > and years of experience in Buddhism. And, no doubt, I also had read > about attachment many times before - but it didn't mean very much to > me until now....(How could I have not noticed that the whole world is > pervaded with tanha, lobha, raga and any of its other names?) I > think it was in coming to Buddhism from a religion where 'God is > Love' and 'Love your neighbour as yourself' and the greatest virtue > was 'to love', and the greatest crime was 'not to love' ........and > then living in a world that revolves around acquisition of things and > people, it is hard to quickly come to an understanding about > Attachment. Isn't it attachment to persons that adds delight, > excitement, richness, spice and flavour to life? Should life just be > bland tasteless unsalted porridge? > > Looking up the meaning in "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" by > Nyanatiloka Mahathera, I found the main meaning was listed under > Tanha (craving or thirst) - so MANY kinds of tanha, (the 8th link in > the paticcasamuppada) and with other meanings under Lobha > (attachment), Raga (lust or greed) and abhijjha (covetousness). > > Whatever I was reading after the 'accident', I kept coming across the > statement that the cause of our grief and sorrow is Attachment in all > its various forms. If we want to overcome sorrow, we have to give up > attachment - attachment not only to persons but also to > possessions...... > Attachment was the cause of sorrow - "the chief root of suffering, > and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths." > > So, within the perspective of unending re-births, attachment begins > to look a little less attractive, a little less harmless, a lot more > powerful, a lot harder to identify, so well disguised from > detection........ > ------------- > On the plane, random memories of my reading about death in the > scriptures arose, Two stories stuck uncomfortably in my memory > where the Buddha had acted in a ways I find difficult to understand; > I know that obviously cultural and legal differences (and my > ignorance) come into play. The first was the story of how the Buddha > auctioned the corpse of Sirima the Courtesan......which seems, > well...., horrifyingly brutal...I could only read it once..... not > gentle and kind, and the second was the well-known story of > Kisagotami, which does not fit with what I hear daily of the needs of > grieving parents where there are still-born or neo-natal baby > deaths. (indeed, the Emergency Response Mental Health Team would have > quickly attended to any young mother carrying a dead child from house > to house in my area, wanting to borrow mustard seeds and asking who > had died in the house. She would have legally regulated, medicated > and hospitalised with some diagnosis - perhaps depression). Possibly > even charged by police with 'interfering with a dead body'.......... > > And I thought - What is this compassion? Is it really seeking of > your own particular goal for an individual, what you - think is best > for them - rather than immediate comfort, support and kindness? > And detachment is encouraged - with connotations of remaining aloof > from the world and suffering. How is this different from apathy, > indifference? > Shouldn't compassion be a 'doing' thing?........ > > This is probably how I was up until I arrived in Bangkok, full of > strong emotions and questions, to people who would view all of this > from a wider perspective, and who would speak the truth to > me........ Hope to add more of what I learned and came to understand > soon........ > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Chris, > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > > > Sweet Revenge ..... can this be regarded as an abuse of power by > the > > > moderators? > > > I will be happy to expand on my previous post, but will need to > take > > > a little while - the day I arrived back my brother was > unexpectedly > > > admitted to hospital - hopefully home tomorrow. > > > > I sincerely hope he's OK....you've certainly been having a few tests > > lately.... I'm just reflecting on K.Sujin's reminders about thinking > > about/helping the others with kusala (no translation;-) instead of > > dwelling on one's own unpleasant feelings as can happen so > easily..... > > > > Please don't you or anyone ever feel any hurry or need at all to > reply to > > anything I say here... > > > > > I don't wonder why bad things happen, but why they are happening > in > > > clusters........ > > > > I think it comes back to those complex conditions that kom > explained so > > well..remember his weather analogy? Remember too, that the 'things' > are > > just momentary vipaka (results of kamma) followed by kusala and > akusala > > accumulations..... > > > > The only 'folk-wisdom' / 'superstition' explanation > > > people keep telling me is that 'You'll be O.K. now, bad things > come > > > in threes' ...... Depends where they're counting from, I > > > suppose...... > > > > In any language, i hope you get a good rest and break this weekend > and > > that your brother and other family members do too. > > > > metta, > > Sarah > > ======== 11443 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Thank you Mike. That is indeed the case! Best, Robert Ep. ==== --- Mike Brotherton wrote: > Robert, > You are probably trying to open it with Netscape. I had the same thing happen to > me. > It DOES work if you open it with Explorer. > > Mindful lurker, > Mike B. > > > Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Dear Suan, > > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens > over > > and over again. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ======= > > > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary > > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. > > > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > > > as follows. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > > aadimaaha." > > > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > > > I wanted to save time. > > > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > > > on this list. > > > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > > figurative speech. > > > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > > consciousness here. > > > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > > fields of sciences. > > > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > > > bit longer. > > > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > > > general readers. > > > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > > > link. > > > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Suan Lu Zaw 11444 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Dear Nina, Your description of Varanasi brought back fond memories of the craziness there. We were led for what seemed like hours by a boy to a private session with silk merchants, and I thought the whole trip I was going to be killed and robbed in that order. Well it was just a pleasant sales pitch with a cup of tea, and managed to eventually get back to the street -- only after ordering $200 worth of silk clothing which turned out not to fit correctly. I also fondly recall being stuffed on a bus with no bathroom breaks for most of 9 hours bouncing to the North of India in a seat with no knee room and three members of an Indian family shoved in next to me, my knees up in my throat. I thought I would require hospitalization but I turned out to be fine. There were also a few goats on the bus. Well, thanks for activating my 'India File' in my brain. And thanks for sharing! Best, Robert Ep. =================== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Betty, all those crowds in Varanasi, lots of hawkers, no rest. I was so > impressed the first time I was there many years ago, with Phra Dhammadharo. > He exclaimed with enthusiasm: exactly like the Buddha's time, nothing has > changed. I found it all overwhelming. We can be reminded of dukkha: where > are all those people going, where are we all going: to rebirth, and then, > death again. You probably did not go to the holy places, because there it is > quiet, no vendors there, it is forbidden. It is helpful to go with friends > you can discuss dhamma with.This time I did not go around in Varanasi, but > we had a lot of Dhamma talks with A. Sujin in the hotel. > Lodewijk and I also had aversion when people were pushing so much near the > buses, rather frightening, but all that is quickly forgotten. A. Sujin once > explained: when you have dosa because of being pushed by a beggar girl, it > is conditioned by conceit: how can she treat me like that? She is pushing > me. Akusala arises because it is conditioned, but we should not take it too > much to heart or find it too important. It arises and is then gone > immediately. Sarah and I used to talk about it that we better not dwell too > long on what is gone and create big stories out of it. Then we make the > aversion worse. > There are very few tourists nowadays and when poor people see buses or cars > they come at once. Not all of them push or behave badly. Lodewijk bought > souvenirs and had some nice conversation with them, they made him laugh. At > all the holy sites we were sitting very quietly, having dhamma discussions, > walking around. Savatthi is so peaceful, you can walk around quietly. It all > depends where you are in India. Lodewijk and I always wish to return there, > feel nostalgic about it. We talk about India almost every day, just like > Jaran's father who also loves India. I do wish you will enjoy India next > time. Best wishes from Nina. > > > 11445 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact Dear Jon, If I haven't already answered this, thank you for the clarification on what you were saying the 'pronouncements' were not useful for, that is, telling whether or not someone was actually enlightened. I have to ask, though: don't we all have to draw such conclusions in order to choose to listen to a 'wise friend well versed in the Dhamma'? And how can we know whether that person is a good advisor or not, if we do not have either a useful tradition to rely on, or a trustworthy instinct to rely on? I believe that both are viable, while it is clear to me that you believe that akusala can subtly pervade all areas of life and that our 'feelings' about whether something is headed in the right direction or not are inherently deceptive. A view I respect, by the way, and have been caused to pause and think about. I have felt strongly that the Mahayana tradition has great authenticity and wisdom in its living lineage, as I also feel about the Theravadan tradition. I have some trust in the lineage holders of both traditions. Plus, I have allowed myself to trust in teachers just based on their apparent depth and wisdom to me. I do however understand your view about such things. So I will just repeat my question, which is meant respectfully and with curiosity: how can you be sure that your interpretation of the suttas, and the advice you get from 'wise friends' is kusala and heading one in the right direction, if you do not believe in using either tradition or instinct to make that determination? Thanks, In Dhamma, Robert Ep. ======================= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > I don't know enough about the teachings of other traditions to > > comment, > > > but with respect Rob, I don't think the pronouncements you mention > > should > > > carry any weight in coming to a conclusion (if one felt the need to do > > > so). > > > > Hi Jon. > > The only conclusion I guess one would want to come to is 'how to > > practice or put > > into practice' the Buddha's teachings in order to reach the end of > > suffering. > > > > Anyway, thanks for at least trying to answer my questions. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > I may not have been clear in my answer. What I meant was that > pronouncements of self-enlightenment do not carry any weight as far as > coming to a conclusion on whether the person has indeed attained > enlightenment, assuming we felt the need to come to any conclusion on that > score at all anyway (the implication being that I can see no benefit in > trying to come to a conclusion on that question -- I happen not to believe > that someone can know this about another, absent special powers, perhaps). > > Sorry that you felt that my answers were not useful (not my intention). > Please follow up if you wish, as I am always happy to explain my position > better. > > Jon 11446 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > R:> And what > > is the characteristic of nibbana as an object? I have always thought of > > nibbana > > as a state in which ignorance has been removed, not an object. I don't > > quite > > understand what kind of object it is meant to be, and why it is an > > object rather > > than a state. > ..... > Hmm...as object, I think we can only say it is the unconditioned > ‘deathless’ reality...the opposite to what is usually experienced. At any > moment of panna, there is no ignorance and there is a glimpse of a > reality. Ignorance is a mental factor that either arises or doesn’t with > each citta. I won't go on for long about Nibbana -- I understand that it may be a distraction and not considered useful. But since it is the endpoint of a very long journey, I'd like to at least understand what is meant by it. I find it hard to understand the value of a reality which is 'glimpsed' but remains distant and is never 'entered into' as an actual experience. I also don't understand what kind of 'object' it would be, as an unconditioned reality. Saying that 'it' is deathless makes it sound like it has an independent existence in some other realm that we are not a part of, but which we glimpse. If this is the case, it leaves me even more confused, which is why I will drop it if no one has a simple answer that will quiet my mind for the time being. Thank you, Sarah, for you answer in any case. It makes it a bit more clear to me what is meant by the experience of Nibbana for the arahat. I guess I'll probably have to wait until I glimpse it myself, and I'm not holding my breath [no yoga puns intended]. > R:> I'm sorry I sound kind of mean in this post. I realized midway that > it > > was from > > you and not from Jon. > ..... > Am I beginning to sound like Jon I wonder???Is that good or bad??? Ha ha, it may just be my lack of discernment. I still > haven’t detected any meanness in this or any post of yours. Oh, thank you, well I'm very glad. Good points > and questions and I realize that though nibbana and parinibbana don’t seem > very useful as topics to study for some of us, for others like yourself, > the understanding of these areas affects the consideration of all other > dhammas. Yes, I appreciate your seeing that. This is a very good description of how it feels to me, and though I understand that it shouldn't be necessary in a sense, I personally find it very hard to feel clear about the path and move forward unless I have at least a temporary concept of what the destination is about. Perhaps this is because of the different dhamma backgrounds we > all come from. Probably that, and also different types of temperament. I am very mystical in nature, and have little patience with the mechanics of things unless I feel that they are connected to something transcendent. This may be a conceit of mine that will be dropped one day, but my personality seems wired that way at present. > Hope I’ve clarified the points a little as I understand them and thanks > for all your other posts. Hope you've caught up by now:-) I'm afraid I will never catch up with dsg. But at least I've made some progress and am a bit in the swing of it again. I'll do my best, and thanks as always for your responses. I know Jon says I can't know for sure, but I feel your messages are always very kusala to me. : ) [Actually Jon's too......] Best, Robert Ep. 11447 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from Bkk and Rob Ep's 'brusque' post --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > Sorry about the 'busque' heading which should of course be a 'brusque' > heading.....(hope my students aren't reading;-) > > S. ha ha. well busque is fine with me, but thanks for the correction. I've added the 'r' above, for those with spelling clingings. : ) Thanks, Robert Ep. 11448 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from Bkk and Rob Ep's 'busque' post Hi Sarah. I'm working my way backwards through posts, so my comments are out of order too. Just wanted to say that I enjoyed your message here, and your report on Jon's response too. Yes, my interpretation is a bit sexist, he's right. For me that's a bit refreshing, since I always fancy myself a feminist. It makes me feel so 'human'. : ) I'd better quit before I get even more jovial and self-satisfied and call down more kamma on my head. I'm not sure why I'm in such a giddy mood at the moment. Best, Robert Ep. ================== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep & friends, > > We’re back in Hong Kong and Christine is back in Oz (not the Wizard’s) > after an action-packed dhamma discussion weekend, both at the Foundation > w/ K.Sujin and other friends including Sukin and Jaran and light-hearted > dhamma-related ‘chats’ together in the garden of our hotel...We got back > midday yesterday and Jon had a quick change and straight into the office > to catch up on legal drafts waiting for him. Meanwhile I was straight into > teaching some teenage boys and the more down to earth language of what > ‘sucks’and doesn’t ‘suck’ and what is still ‘cool’ or no longer ‘cool’ > rather than the niceties of definitions of ‘kusala’ and ‘akusala’. > > I know Christine was meanwhile going to be straight off her flight in > Brisbane (after a very long trip and change of flights in Sydney) and into > the hospital where she works, but she'll be adding her own far wittier > account and maybe Jaran will add his, if he managed to get the stand-by > flight back to Singapore. > > Different stories, different concepts, but the same realities and > different moments of vipaka (result of kamma) followed by likes, dislikes > and thinking. We discussed a lot about what is taken for being a good > result, such as a holiday on the beach in Samui or pleasant surroundings, > or bad result, such as an accident or worse, which are really only very > brief experiences through different doorways such as the eye or > body-sense, followed by the story. Each brief moment of vipaka is > conditioned by kamma (with so many other complex conditions at play as Rob > K has pointed out), that there’s really nothing to be envious of at all. > Hence more understanding of realities and conditions leads to less envy > and less taking the ‘world’ for selves or beings. The sotapanna has no > more wrong view of self and issa (envy) has been totally eradicated. > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Apologies in advance for being kind of brusque in this post. > > Explanation at the > > end. : ) > > I’m going to leave the meat for later as I have some office work I need to > attend to first;-( > > Believe me, meanwhile, that your idea of ‘brusque’ or ‘harsh’ is always > very polite and considerate from my point of view. I prefer and > appreciate the “I strongly disagree because of a) b) c)..” response to the > “thankyou for trying to answer my questions > ” or “ I’ve read your response and no comment ” > replies;-) > > > I'm sorry I sound kind of mean in this post. I realized midway that it > > was from > > you and not from Jon. We've been tough with each other lately > > [male thing > > ], but I have a tendency to want to be a little nicer with you. > > Jon feels this is a little sexist ....meanwhile, as I mentioned, my > students are pretty tough with me, (especially after a long holiday when > I’ve set them lots of ‘sucks’ homework and have to face the > consequences;-) ), so be as tough or nice as you like... > > > Although I suspect that you are actually just as tough. > > It's just my delusion as usual. : ) > > I appreciate the good intentions. > > Best wishes for now...will catch up w/ the meat from your post, Dan’s and > any others later. > > Sarah > > p.s a computer that works - my definition of 'bliss' for today;-) > ===================================== 11449 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Hi Rob K., Working my way backwards and catching up [or down].... I appreciate your good description below. I assume you would think that one's 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also be something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then really, it is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better or worse? Best, Robert Ep. ============= --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Rob, > From another angle: > One of the descriptions of the khandas given in the > Patisambhidhimagga is that they are alien, not us. What discerment > discerns is the utter anattaness of all dhammas. If we have the idea > of me doing something to get somewhere this is being caught in the > whirl of view. But dhammas arise because of conditions, there is not > even a hint of self who could make them arise. > Now you are studying Dhamma and there is right effort arising > together with right concentration that supports right view that can > understand this. This is at the theoretical level but these factors > can develop to much higher degrees. Usually people want high levels > of concentration because this feels different from normal life - it > is calmer- and so one perceives progress. But the progress of > vipassana is about wearing away wrong view - and any concentration > that arises with vipassana is always associated with right insight. > > You perhaps find it a little worrying that there is no self who can > decide to do this or that to make sure he is going in the right > direction. But seeing this leads to detachment from the idea of self > and that is the beginning of insight. > I think you don't feel concerend that, for instance, there is seeing > whenever the eyes are open - no one can stop it occuring. But all > dhammas , all realities are the same: they arise by conditions and > cease when those conditions are not present. Understanding must > comprehend whatever dhammas - whether kusala or akusala or vipaka or > kiriya - arise as being essentially the same; that is they are > anatta, dukkha and anicca. Then one doesn't turn away from whatever > arises and > there is right effort that assists investigation. > best wishes > robert > > > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > Give the clarifications below, which I read as you saying that > there basically is > > no practice, there is only the arising of discernment or > understanding, brought on > > by the concordance of factors, what is the practitioner given to do > or understand > > in order to accord with or bring about those conditions? Or does > it in fact have > > nothing to do with the practitioner and there is basically nothing > to do. If one > > studies the suttas, that is because the conditions have arisen to > cause this, and > > one cannot decide to study them, or refrain from studying them. > The conditions > > will make the decision. Or is there something that we are in fact > called upon to > > do in order to create the proper environment for these conditions > to arise? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ==================== > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Rob Ep > > > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > > I still don't understand how our limitations in discerning > dictates > > > > against > > > > practice. Whether or not we are able to presently discern the > reality > > > > of each > > > > moment from moment to moment, the attempt to do so will lead to > greater > > > > ability. > > > > I know that you don't believe this from what you have said, but > still > > > > don't > > > > understand your reasoning very well. > > > > > > I think you are saying that- > > > a. The path taught by the Buddha involves seeing clearly each > > > moment-to-moment reality as it arises; and > > > b. The way this seeing clearly is developed is by concentrating > on the > > > present moment. > > > > > > I believe that (a) above is not what we are taught as the path. > I think > > > what we are told is that our ignorance and wrong view about > realities has > > > to be dispelled. This implies *sufficiently* knowing realites so > that > > > there is no longer any room for doubt about the matter. > > > > > > As to (b), I can only repeat the comments in my post of a minute > ago. > > > Concentrating on the present moment is concentrating with existing > > > misconceptions and preconceptions. Awareness does not arise just > because > > > we have sat down to concentrate on things. > > > > > > Jon > > > > Is it really enough to understand that consciousness is a > moment to > > > > moment > > > > phenomena? *Any* attempt to apply the suttas to daily life can > be > > > > described as a > > > > 'technique', just as meditating may be described as a technique > to do > > > > the same, > > > > and it seems to me that some sort of application, however > awkward, is > > > > exactly what > > > > is called for. If meditating is something I do, it becomes > part of > > > > daily living, > > > > and is therefore at least as eligible for discernment as any > other daily > > > > activity. > > > > > > As I said in an earlier post to you-- > > > > > > >> As far as 'specific practices' are concerned, I don't believe > there are > > > >> any given by the Buddha, and I include here studying the > suttas and > > > >> 'discerning the present moment'. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > > > > > ====================== > > > > > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: 11450 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Dear Jon, Thanks for the clarification below. I think you are being truly consistent in what you say here. If such is the case, then there is no practice. I assume, as I asked Rob K. in my last post, that you would then feel that there is nothing to be done by these kandhas including 'consciousness' making a decision or exercising will, and that in fact the kandhas are on 'automatic pilot' being buffetted completely by conditions in one or another direction. When it is time for panna to arise, it surely will, if the conditions dictate that more painful kamma will be created, nothing to be done. It seems to me that with this understanding that there is predestination and complete determinism. There is no moment in which the 'sentient' quality of consciousness has any effect that has not been strictly caused by a mechanical arising condition. So fate is determined in advance by the causes that will come from prior causes and we need do nothing but wait? I paint this seemingly stark picture because I want to know if this is in fact the case from your standpoint, or is there another way in which the human desire to follow the path and know the Dhamma plays some sort of active role? I am not saying, by the way, that either version is right or wrong. I am just trying to sort things out. Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Continuing (with apologies for the jumble at the end of the previous post) > > > Is it really enough to understand that consciousness is a moment to > > moment > > phenomena? *Any* attempt to apply the suttas to daily life can be > > described as a > > 'technique', just as meditating may be described as a technique to do > > the same, > > and it seems to me that some sort of application, however awkward, is > > exactly what > > is called for. > > I pretty much agree with this observation. As I said in an earlier post > to you-- > > >> As far as 'specific practices' are concerned, I don't believe there are > >> any given by the Buddha, and I include here studying the suttas and > >> 'discerning the present moment'. > > It's nice to know we can find something to agree on! > > > If meditating is something I do, it becomes part of > > daily living, > > and is therefore at least as eligible for discernment as any other daily > > activity. > > No-one is telling anyone they shouldn't meditate. The discussion is about > how the Buddha's teaching is to be correctly read/interpreted. > > Jon 11451 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Compassion and Detachment Dear All, I find a little confusion between what I thought were universally accepted meanings for qualities to be encouraged, and the different interpretation that I think buddhism seems to place upon them. Compassion is one of those qualities. I began considering 'compassion' initially as a result of looking at 'attachment' (saraga) and 'detachment' (viveka, and viraga), in relation to the reactions of myself and others after the deaths of the young friends. [Start anywhere in buddhism and everything leads to everything else (Just as attachment has led to kilesas, vedana, anicca, anatta, dukkha, kamma, conditions and roots - Nothing can be compartmentalised or seen in isolation).] But, how can we be 'compassionate' and 'detached' at the same time? Compassion seems to carry with it overtones of warmth and love; detachment seems to carry coldness, unfeeling. Or, can we only be compassionate if we are detached? Wouldn't non-attached be a more appropriate choice of word, given that detached can be a derogatory term, meaning uninvolved, callous, indifferent (or even mentally unbalanced)? And doesn't compassion need action, to differentiate it from common pity, or emotional self-indulgence? the definition in Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7):(taken from dsg post 3774) "Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering in others. Its function is not being able to bear others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffering. it succeeds when it causes cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces sorrow." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: 'cruelty'/'non-cruelty' ...... in oneself, or in others? Is any physically helpful action implied here, or just introspection? What about tragic happenings? Are they included in the term 'cruelty'? Probably not, because they cannot be controlled and 'caused to subside'....... So, this is probably about introspection/contemplation.......not 'action'.... 'Promoting the removal of suffering in others' - Yes, I see now that this is probably what the Buddha was doing in sending Kisagotami around from house to house? But what about the story of Sirima? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dictionary Meanings of Compassion: From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn) Compassion - a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering; the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Detachment - avoiding emotional involvement [wyn: {withdrawal}] In the Manual of buddhist Terms and Doctrines by Nyanatiloka Mahathera Compassion is listed as Karuna Karuna is listed as Compassion Detachment - 1. viveka: detachment, seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: (1) bodily detachment (káya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects; (2) mental detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from sensuous things; (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi- viveka). - 2. virága: fading away, detachment; absence of lust, dispassionateness. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: I have read the Useful Post on 'compassion': http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3774 and I am having a little difficulty with the following paragraphs in that post: "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. Compassion is a mental state which only arises under very specific conditions and then falls away immediately. Like all other mental states, it is inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self again. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so mixed with other feelings that the part that is pure compassion doesn't last for even the tiniest part of a moment? 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we encouraged to promote karuna, in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is this another misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this moment are merely these different mental and physical phenomena, so we know from this experience that this is how it must be for others too, even though we don't directly experience the other's compassion, for example." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: Are you saying: 'There is no-one here or there anyway.......so, why bother...'? --------------------------------------------------------------------- metta, Christine 11452 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/23/02 11:00:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear All, > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > morality)? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you need to put that book down! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are > all responsible somehow........ > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We know we're on the right track when things don't all seem wonderful. We know we've slipped into a ditch on the side of that track when things all look terrible! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > progressing).......... > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Impossible. The capacity is there. But don't worry about making progress; just pay attention to what's going on, wherever and however we are. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > of > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > - > water-element? > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > (jara). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching intently, waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment. -------------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Christine > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11453 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/24/02 12:08:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Thanks for coming back on a post which you probably strongly disagreed > with. > > To 'back up' slightly, it might be useful to this thread to consider the > difference (if any) between *direct knowledge of dhammas/realties* and > *observation of realities/dhammas*. > > By observation of realities I am referring to a kind of directed attention > or volitional (i.e., deliberate) action, whereby one contemplates what is > happening internally at the present moment (for example, if there is mind > with anger, then one observes mind with anger). It might be directed to a > particular aspect of the present moment (e.g., feelings), or it might be > directed to just whatever presents itself at the present moment. > > Now, I would suggest (and I suspect this is where we depart), that such > directed attention as described so far may or may not be kusala. It seems > to me that a person could do all this yet still with a strong idea of self > etc. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there be a strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Now you would no doubt say that if the person understands the teachings on > not-self etc, and he/she is observing the realities with a view to seeing > them in those terms, this should be kusala. Respectfully, I would have to > disagree. I don't think kusala can be stirred up so easily. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. Mere intellectual understanding of these teachings is not nearly enough, though it is a help and an important beginning. ----------------------------------------------------- And unless> > we we have already developed a knowledge of the characteristic of kusala > and akusala that allows us to tell to a fine degree whether the > consciousness is one or the other, I don't see how we could ever be sure. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: No disagreement on this. (I'm waiting now for the punchline which will make me want to withdraw all the ready agreement I've been giving!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > > > I guess what I am saying here is that I believe we should never assume or > infer the kusala nature of a mind moment from the general circumstances of > the moment (i.e., I'm focussing on realities, it must be kusala; the mind > is so much quieter than normal, this must be what is meant by > tranquillity, etc.). This seems to ignore the extremely subtle and > pervasive nature of akusala. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think this is so. I don't presume that many of my mind-moments are kusala. In fact, I suspect that almost all of them are flawed. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Well, I haven't dealt with the *direct knowledge* scenario, but perhaps > I've said enough controversial things for one post! > > I look forward to your well-considered comments as usual, Howard. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I'm afraid you must be mightily disappointed with those I have provided herein! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > PS Apologies for any incorrectness in the position I have attributed to > you in this discussion. It is based on my best reading of your posts! =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11454 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 11:57pm Subject: Re: Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death,/RobEp Dear Rob, I found your post very moving and comforting. My daughter Sarah is doing well, though a little tired from supporting others, working, and going to University. But tired is a good thing at the moment. And she has house guests - another exchange student from New York, female this time, and a friends' cousin from New Zealand. Half a dozen of H..... and A....... mates come around most evenings, and many old friendships have been renewed. One is not doing so well - the boy that held everyone else up before and during the funeral, and who gave the Eulogy for both his best friends, but she is keeping a watch and he won't be left alone to deal with this over the coming year. Thank you for Ajahn Brams' story. You say: " I thought it pointed out beautifully that the most desperate events in our lives can sometimes strengthen our involvement with the Dhamma." Exactly so, Rob, I found this event, which didn't affect me directly, caused a reconsidering of just what is/is not worthwhile in life, and, among other things, made me thankful that the Dhamma is still available relatively unchanged and all of us have further time to study it. I think Ajahn Brams is talking about the Lady Patacara. She became a Nun and eventually, an Arahat. http://www.buddhanet.net/28lbud.htm Thanks again Rob, I'll show (my) Sarah your Post, she will also be touched by it, Metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine, > I'm working my way backwards through posts, and was just shocked to read about the > tragic events in your and your daughter's life. I'm sorry you had to go through > that. > > It is true this life is full of sufferings, and we have all had our share, but > none of what you talked about seemed like 'kid stuff' to me. I think your balance > in the midst of all this is admirable and shows some real steadiness in your > understanding of the teachings you have been working so hard with. > > By a strange coincidence, a friend from Australia just sent me a CD with lectures > by Ajahn Bhramavamso on Theravada and meditation. He told one story which some > here may be familiar with about the Buddha and a woman who came to him. I thought > it pointed out beautifully that the most desperate events in our lives can > sometimes strengthen our involvement with the Dhamma. > > He spoke of a woman who had had the worst possible tragedies befall her all at > once during the time of the Buddha. Her husband had been killed and she was > trying to go visit her father with her two children. A terrible storm wound up > killing both children and on the road she received news that her father had also > died in the storm. She went totally mad and wandered around naked from her own > encounter with the flood for days. Eventually by karmic conditions she wandered > in this state into the grove where the Buddha was teaching his disciples. Those > guarding the periphery wanted to keep her out, but the Buddha saw what was > happening and told them to let her in. He gave her a cloak to cover herself with > and gave her a place to sit and receive the teachings. With nothing left of her > former life, within a short period of time she reached full enlightenment and > became an arahat. > > I just thought that at this particular moment when I have been thinking about this > story, that you might want to hear about it. > > I'm very sorry for you having to have gone through the current circumstances, and > also wish your daughter the very best. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 11455 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 0:28am Subject: Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... O.K. Howard - once I put the book down.... get up out of the ditch..... and hop onto the lily pad....... Hang on! How was I holding the book, or was that before the transmogrification? Howard, are you working too hard, my friend? <<<<<<"Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching intently, waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment.">>>>>> Something vaguely Zen about this, is that allowed??? "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? I'm quite impressed that one can just lie in wait for enlightenment and zap it as it passes by....... I think you have something here, Howard .....We just have to find a 'bait' to entice it by......... Hmmmm, May I be the agent for your Speaking Tour? We could plan Workshops, Retreats, Support Groups for the "I was THIS close brigade", and ........... I just had to erase about ten lines that even I thought was over-doing it........ :-) ( And you know I'm on 'sensitive' ground with the Moderators.) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 2/23/02 11:00:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- > > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' > > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND > > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > > morality)? > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think you need to put that book down! ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was > > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are > > all responsible somehow........ > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > We know we're on the right track when things don't all seem wonderful. > We know we've slipped into a ditch on the side of that track when things all > look terrible! > ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > > progressing).......... > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Impossible. The capacity is there. But don't worry about making > progress; just pay attention to what's going on, wherever and however we are. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > > of > > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, > > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel > > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at > > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > > - > > water-element? > > > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > > (jara). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching intently, > waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > > ========================== > With metta, > Howard 11456 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 1:32am Subject: To Sarah F from Sarah A Chris, pls share this note with your Sarah just if you think it’s appropriate..if not, at least you may enjoy a Pali break;-)) Dear Sarah F, Firstly, I was so very sorry to hear about the terrible accident and the loss of your dear friends. I’m sure this is a very difficult time for you, other friends and especially for the families of those who died. Often when we hear of such tragic events, life seems very unfair. Whether or not we believe in God or think that what happens in life is a result of kamma, these young people didn’t ‘deserve’ to have this accident and it’s very natural to feel angry about it. Sometimes, however, I think we just have to accept that such tragedies happen and it’s quite useless to try to work out all the reasons why which are, in any case, beyond our comprehension. We can perhaps just say that what happened must have done so for reasons we cannot know and then move on and be grateful we have the chance today to still consider what is really worthwhile in life. I’ve been particularly impressed by your example of consideration and helpfulness to others at this time. Instead of wallowing in self pity, which would have been quite natural, you’ve been helping to give support to other friends, visiting parents, preparing a photo album, I believe, and helping with the Eulogy and taking care of house guests all the while. I know you’re also working and going to Uni. I doubt I would have shown such maturity and noble qualities and may I say how inspiring this example is. I also know that your mum’s first reaction after the crash was to cancel her trip to Bangkok and to stay and give you support. Again out of consideration, you encouraged her to join us and we’re very grateful for this. It’s such a joy to spend time with her and to discuss life’s priorities. Because she was still reflecting a lot on death, we discussed how in many ways it is not so different from what we’re experiencing now. We have an idea that our fun and good feelings will last, but actually we can see that nothing lasts at all. In this way we can say there is death all the time followed by new experiences. I know you have been brought up as a Christian, as I was, but I don’t think we have to mind about being called Christian, Buddhist or anything else. We can just learn a little more about life as it is. We may think that your friends suffered in a horrific way, but in Bangkok we discussed how really at any time, including the end of life, there are just different experiences and feelings as there are now. We don’t even know that your friends experienced any particular unpleasantness, as events may have happened too fast. We would say, from a Buddhist point of view, that life will be continuing in one form or other just like it is for us now. We also discussed how when we feel so sad or unhappy how really we’re just thinking of ourselves and our own loss of pleasant experience. When we help our friends or the families as you’ve been doing, at these times there’s no sadness or ‘loss’. We discussed 4 particular qualities, often stressed by Buddhists, which are loving-kindness, compassion, joy in others’ good fortune and detachment. What these qualities really refer to are again the ability to put others’ needs, suffering, good fortune or difficulties before our own. When we think with these qualities, we feel ‘light’ and not bogged down in sorrow. Sometimes people think that ‘detachment’ sounds a little cold, but if we think of it as acceptance and ‘letting go’ of our expectations and grief for a little while, perhaps we can see its value too. I must say I always find your mum is a real inspiration when it comes to considering others’ needs too. Of course, we’re all human and there will be tough times ahead as in any grieving process. Sometimes it can even be a kindness to ask others for help and let them have a chance to show these qualities. I also learn a lot from your mum’s great sense of humour and we also laughed together . We may not feel very humourous when the going is so tough, but I think it can help if we don’t take ourselves too seriously. It’s natural to have some fun as well;-) We can also use the tough times to reflect on all our values. What may have seemed so important a couple of weeks ago, may seem less important now. We’re always going to have ups and downs, good and bad experiences, happiness and sadness in life. We have the idea that we can fix life to a certain extent through our careers, relationships, material goods and so on, but as you’ve seen, anything can happen at any time however well fixed or managed our lives may seem. Perhaps this is why your mum so wisely gives so much priority to really trying to understand life a little better. Sarah, I know you’re very busy and thank you if you’ve patiently found time to read my note (sorry, it's got rather long;-)). We heard that you may visit Hong Kong in May and we’d love to meet you if you are not too busy. Please don’t feel any need to respond before then, but of course you’re very welcome if you’d like to ask any questions or make any comments. Thank you again for your generosity in sparing your mum for her trip and for your inspiring example to your friends. Best wishes, Sarah A. ====================================================== 11457 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 1:40am Subject: welcome Mike B Dear Mike B, Thanks for indicating your presence and giving yourself the 'B' without being asked;-) Yes, the Mikes are rapidly catching up with the Robs.... though there's no sign of the original Mike just now.....;-(( If I can encourage you to say a few words about yourself, your mindful lurking or interest here, I know everyone would be very glad. Thanks again for 'breaking the ice', Sarah p.s I used Jim's hyperlink to read Suan's article ========================================== --- Mike Brotherton wrote: > Robert, > You are probably trying to open it with Netscape. I had the same thing > happen to me. > It DOES work if you open it with Explorer. > > Mindful lurker, > Mike B. 11458 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 3:07am Subject: Re: To Sarah F from Sarah A Dear Sarah A, Thank you for your wise and caring words and your kindness in thinking of my daughter. It is a long time since I have felt so deeply moved by a letter. I had been thinking of trying to put down in writing what we had all talked about (formally and informally) in Bangkok, but you, Sarah, writing from the heart to my daughter, have included a far better precis than any feeble attempt on my part. I will certainly forward it to her and I am sure she will wish to respond to you as soon as possible. You and Jon, and all others on this list whom I have already met, or whom I am yet to meet, can truthfully be described as kalyána-mitta (Admirable Friends). [As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: having admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues." "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Having admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues is actually the whole of the holy life."} Gratitude to all of you have given support, both on and off list. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Chris, pls share this note with your Sarah just if you think it's > appropriate..if not, at least you may enjoy a Pali break;-)) > > Dear Sarah F, > > Firstly, I was so very sorry to hear about the terrible accident and the > loss of your dear friends. I'm sure this is a very difficult time for you, > other friends and especially for the families of those who died. > > Often when we hear of such tragic events, life seems very unfair. Whether > or not we believe in God or think that what happens in life is a result of > kamma, these young people didn't `deserve' to have this accident and it's > very natural to feel angry about it. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11459 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah F from Sarah A Dear Christine, Thank you for your kind words too...... I hope the note may be a condition for some useful discussion in Queensland too. Chris, I was just prompted after I read your follow-up note to Rob Ep about your Sarah, but really wasn't intending or wishing to pre-empt your own reflections from Bkk which I'm sure will be in your usual witty and moving style, so please continue with these in your own good time;-) Enjoying your other posts too, Sarah ======================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah A, > > Thank you for your wise and caring words and your kindness in > thinking of my daughter. It is a long time since I have felt so > deeply moved by a letter. I had been thinking of trying to put down > in writing what we had all talked about (formally and informally) in > Bangkok, but you, Sarah, writing from the heart to my daughter, have > included a far better precis than any feeble attempt on my part. I > will certainly forward it to her and I am sure she will wish to > respond to you as soon as possible. > > You and Jon, and all others on this list whom I have already met, or > whom I am yet to meet, can truthfully be described as kalyána-mitta > (Admirable Friends). > [As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This > is half of the holy life, lord: having admirable people as friends, > companions, & colleagues." > "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Having admirable people as > friends, companions, & colleagues is actually the whole of the holy > life."} > > Gratitude to all of you have given support, both on and off list. > > metta, > Christine 11460 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 3:41am Subject: Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's/RobEp....... Dear RobEp, My first sensible reply to your really much appreciated post seems to have vanished into cyberspace. So, because of that this happens, if that hadn't happened neither would this ....... is there a faint echo of something there? :-) - just one further question..... You say: "When you see each detail just as it is, without reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even better shape, but by then you'll probably be an arahat." How can I work that bit into the 'tongue-zap' enlightenment program? Would you like to be a guest lecturer, I feel you'd go really well with the Support Group......... :-) I think I need to have a glass of hot milk and retire for the night. Sunday night here, MondayMania already....... much metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Geez, Christine, > What you are lost in is....lost in Pali. hee hee.....I hope you're having fun, > you know more Pali now than I will probably ever manage. > > As for your wonderment at seeing how 'defiled' you are [not you really, really > just the kandhas associated with your name, body, etc.], I would say > congratulations. the difference between someone on the path and not on the path > is that those not on the path don't realize what a bag of imperfect 'stuff' > they're made up of. If your realize this, you're in good shape, primed for > progress. Since discernment is the name of the game, what you are seeing so far > is probably a good start. When you see each detail just as it is, without > reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even better shape, > but by then you'll probably be an arahat. > > Love, > Robert Ep. > > ==================== > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- > > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' > > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND > > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > > morality)? > > > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was > > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are > > all responsible somehow........ > > > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > > progressing).......... > > > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > > of > > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, > > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel > > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at > > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > > - > > water-element? > > > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > > (jara). > > > > metta, > > Christine 11461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:20am Subject: India Ch 4, no. 2 India Ch 4, no. 2 We should understand what satipatthåna is and what the objects of satipatthana are. Satipatthåna is the development of insight, vipassanå, the direct understanding of all realities of our life, of citta, cetasika (mental factors arising with the citta) and rúpa. Only one citta at a time arises and experiences one object. It seems that we see and hear at the same time, but when visible object is experienced, sound cannot be experienced at the same time. Acharn Sujin explained about the development of satipatthåna when we were sitting on the ground in the Jeta Grove, near the place where once the Buddha stayed. In the Jeta Grove he taught the Dhamma to the monks and to the layfollowers who visited him daily. Acharn Sujin said: ³Dhamma is what is real, it has no owner. There are two kinds of dhammas: nåma and rúpa. Hearing and sound arise and fall away very rapidly, can we slow them down? Sati can arise and be aware of them. In the beginning there cannot be awareness of all realities that can be experienced through the six doors, because understanding has to be developed. Sati can arise and paññå can begin to understand realities, there is no other way. Thinking arises in between moments of awareness and there is bound to be doubt about realities, because doubt has not been eradicated. When sati arises, pañña must arise together with it. We should have understanding of the characteristics of realities and of satipatthåna and this can condition the arising of sati and pañña that directly understands nåma and rúpa. This is not intellectual understanding, but it is paññå of another level that penetrates thoroughly the characteristics of realities, that realizes them as only elements, dhåtus.² How do we experience the body? We think of our whole body but what we take for our body consists of different groups of rúpas. The rúpas that are the four Great Elements arise in each group of rúpas no matter whether they are of the body or rúpas outside, and these are: the Element of Earth or solidity, the Element of Water or cohesion, the Element of Fire or heat and the Element of Wind or motion. In addition to these four there are other rúpas arising together with them in different combinations. Through touch three of these Great Elements can be directly experienced, one at a time, and these are: solidity appearing as hardness or softness, heat appearing as heat or cold, and motion appearing as motion or pressure. Cohesion cannot be experienced through touch, it can only be known through the mind-door. Hardness or heat are characteristics of rúpa, and these cannot be changed, no matter how we name them. We can experience the characteristics that appear without the need to think of them. In this way we can begin to consider in our own life what the Abhidhamma teaches. The Abhidhamma is not a dry subject that concerns theoretical knowledge, it deals with our life. We learn about nåma and rúpa through the study of the Abhidhamma, but this relates to daily life. Do characteristics of rúpa such as hardness, softness, heat or cold not appear all the time whenever we touch things? The purpose of the enumeration of different nåmas and rúpas is not merely to memorize them or to think of them, but to realize their true nature by the development of satipatthåna. Apart from the three rúpas of solidity, heat and motion that can be directly experienced in daily life, there are in addition four rúpas that appear all the time: visible object or colour, sound, odour and flavour. Also these rúpas arise in a group together with the four Great Elements and other rúpas. Thus, there are seven rúpas that appear time and again in daily life, they have characteristics that can be directly experienced without the need to name them or to think about them. We do not have to think of sound or odour in order to experience them, they appear just for a moment and then they disappear. We cannot cause their arising, they arise when there are the right conditions and then they disappear. We cannot prevent them from disappearing, and they are beyond control, non-self. Development of right understanding leads gradually, from the very beginning, to detachment until the ultimate stage, when arahatship is reached. First there will be detachment from the wrong view of self and later on other defilements will be abandoned, but this is a long way. We have accumulated ignorance for aeons and therefore there cannot be right understanding immediately. 11462 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] tragedy and death Dear Christine, please tell your daughter that I sympathize with her loss. It was lovely of her to think immediately of you and that she insisted that you would go to Bgk. She also proved to have learnt from this experience; you never know the future, you cannot plan anything. Use every opportunity to learn. This reminds me of a very helpful post Num wrote to Purnomo after he lost his grandmother. Make your loss into a learning experience. op 23-02-2002 01:31 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: Ch: My daughter was shocked and almost inconsolable. I wanted to cancel > the trip to Bangkok, but she was angrily adamant that I still > continue with the plan. She said this tragedy proved that you can > never know what the future holds, you can never plan, and that I > should take every opportunity to do what I believe in and value, now. > > So - I went to Bangkok with very mixed feelings ........ and I had > done no reading preparation or listed any questions for the > Discussions. My mind was full of thoughts of Death, Suffering, Kamma > and a new sensation - fear. If my daughter hadn't been feeling > miserable (because of Event 1) and had gone to that Party, she > would have been in that car sitting between her friends, H...... and > A....... - I thought - where is there safety? where is there > security? where is there meaning? it certainly > brings ones' attention to what is important in the here-and-now, and > also an awareness that death comes inevitably closer every instant > (with every breath, a friend said), and can come at any time. Isn't it attachment to persons that adds delight, > excitement, richness, spice and flavour to life? Should life just be > bland tasteless unsalted porridge? N: The Buddha did not teach to try giving up attachment, that is forced, unnatural. Only the non-returner, who has attained the third stage of enlightenment has no more conditions for attachment to sense objects and no more aversion or sadness. When we are attached or sad we should not try not to have lobha or dosa, but we can have more understanding of their conditions, even though this is only intellectual understanding. When your daughter was thinking of your wellbeing there were mettå and compassion, at that moment no attachment, no sorrow. Then there is seeing, no sorrow, then hearing, no sorrow, then thinking of the tragedy, sorrow again. It helps to know that our life consists of various moments, and each of these have their own conditions. Thus, there is not a long lasting moment of sorrow, it comes and goes. This can help to a certain extent. There may be more moments that she thinks of others, such as the parents of the children, and then she does not think of her own sorrow. There is also a bitter truth: when we are sad because of the loss of a dear one, we cling to our own pleasant feeling we had in his/her company. Not everyone will be ready to accept this, it depends on the moment. Why was your daughter not in the car? It was not her time yet. It is conditioned, kamma and vipaka, but not everyone is ready to see this. Whatever happens is conditioned and nobody in the world can alter this. If we really understand this, it can be even conforting, taking away anxiety about things that may or may not happen. Ch: Whatever I was reading after the 'accident', I kept coming across the > statement that the cause of our grief and sorrow is Attachment in all > its various forms. If we want to overcome sorrow, we have to give up > attachment - attachment not only to persons but also to > possessions...... > Attachment was the cause of sorrow - "the chief root of suffering, > and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths." N: As Robert K. pointed out in his explanation of the Dependent Origination, so long as there is ignorance there must be birth, old age, sickness and death. We just have to accept this. I was reading Ven. Bodhi's translation of the definition of patience; he translated adhivasana, endurance, as acceptance. At first I was surprised, but when thinking it over, it is good. When we accept the facts of life there is patience. He also had his share of dukkha: he was convinced that he should develop mindfulness of breath, this was very important to him, but he could not continue because of his sinus condition. But I am sure he learnt from this experience. > Ch: So, within the perspective of unending re-births, attachment begins > to look a little less attractive, a little less harmless, a lot more > powerful, a lot harder to identify, so well disguised from > detection........ Two stories stuck uncomfortably in my memory > where the Buddha had acted in a ways I find difficult to understand; > I know that obviously cultural and legal differences (and my > ignorance) come into play. The first was the story of how the Buddha > auctioned the corpse of Sirima the Courtesan......which seems, > well...., horrifyingly brutal...I could only read it once..... not > gentle and kind, and the second was the well-known story of > Kisagotami, which does not fit with what I hear daily of the needs of > grieving parents. N: We should place the story of Sirima in the right context. The Buddha had compassion for her, preached to her and then she became a sotapanna. The Buddha wanted to give a lustful monk a pointed reminded of the transience of beauty and the lustful monk became an araht after his discourse, is that not compassion? We read about Sirima's cremation, attended by the Buddha and many monks, in the "Stories of the Mansions". Sirima who had been reborn a deva appeared with her retinue. And Kisagotami: this is just a reminder that suffering and death are part and parcel of life. Every family comes into close contact with loss. Is it true that attachment becomes less attractive? It depends on the moment, one moment less, at another moment it is attractive. A. Sujin always reminds us: we have to be sincere as to ourselves. She would also ask: do you see the disadvantage of lobha on the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding, or on the level of patipatti, the practice? Ch: And I thought - What is this compassion? Is it really seeking of > your own particular goal for an individual, what you - think is best > for them - rather than immediate comfort, support and kindness? > And detachment is encouraged - with connotations of remaining aloof > from the world and suffering. How is this different from apathy, > indifference? > Shouldn't compassion be a 'doing' thing?........ N: Immediate support and kindness are most valuable, did the Buddha not encourage metta and karuna, compassion? Detachment : this means detachment from self. This also implies, not being self seeking. Quite different from being indifferent or aloof. The first goal of the development of understanding is having less wrong view of self. It is not the eradication of attachment to people and things, that will take place, as you know, at the third stage of enlightenment. That is indeed very far away, maybe aeons. The Dhamma is not a fast working medicine curing all sorrow immediately. How fortunate you were in Bgk, I am sure it really helped you. Best wishes from Nina. 11463 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Robert, Thank you for responding. From reading the discourses, I have not found that the Buddha answered the question "is there a self?" "is there no self?" or "what is self?" "what am I?" and I also have not found the Buddha claimed if there is a self or not, or what self is. As I understand it, these questions and views lead to dukkha and do not lead to cessation of dukkha. Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Epstein" To: Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) > Dear Victor, > I appreciate the quoted Suttas. They are quite good, and quite clear on the > subject of identifying with or clinging to the kandhas. > > I notice that the Buddha never does directly tackle the question of 'is there a > true self?' or 'if the self is not the kandhas what is it?' He merely states that > 1/ the perceptual faculties are *not* annihilated, but continue to function in > enlightenement; and 2/ the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one who > is liberated. > > I find this very fascinating, as my deluded mind keeps wanting an *answer* to the > question of self. It occurs to me that this desire for an answer to the question > of self is another example of 'self' and that this qualifies as a delusion. If > the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one, then the question of self > is no longer a problem, is it? > > I don't mean this to be the case with one to whom the question of self has never > arisen in the first place. But to a spiritual seeker, obsessed with either the > eradication of 'self', the denial of 'self', or the spiritual resolution of > 'self'; to drop the subject of self and be content with the state of being that is > given, would be a transcendence of attachment and clinging to self. > > Best, > he who is called Robert Ep. > [at least around here] > > =============== > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > > Hello Ken, > > > > What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself with > > the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for > > references. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 > > Bhikkhu Sutta > > The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the > > aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because > > the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, > > interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into > > the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't > > feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or > > defined. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, > > having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said > > to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One > > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from > > the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & > > resolute." > > "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one > > doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one > > isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." > > > > "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" > > > > "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said > > in brief?" > > > > "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] > > > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one is > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > classified. > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > classified. [3] > > > > "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have said > > in brief." > > > > "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the > > detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. > > > > "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one is > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > classified. > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > classified. > > > > "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should be > > seen." > > > > Then the monk, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, got > > up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, > > keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling alone, > > secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained > > in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth > > from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here > > & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. > > There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became > > another one of the arahants. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > > > Notes > > 1. The obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of > > resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the > > obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the > > obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12. [Go back] > > > > 2. See SN XXIII.2 [Go back] > > > > 3. See MN 72 [Go back] > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-036.html > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 > > Samanupassana Sutta > > Assumptions > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives or > > priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five > > clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the case > > where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble > > ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard > > for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- > > assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or > > form as in the self, or the self as in form. > > "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or > > feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. > > > > "He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, > > or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. > > > > "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing > > fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in > > fabrications. > > > > "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing > > consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in > > consciousness. > > > > "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. And > > so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the > > appearance of the five faculties -- eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the > > senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch). > > > > "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is > > the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, > > touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the > > thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be > > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient > > nor non-percipient.' > > > > "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them > > the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives > > rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of > > clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall > > not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be > > percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be > > neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html > > > > > > > > > Hi Victor, > > > > > > All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a > > > Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we > > > need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release > > > ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, > > > what we are doing now are just plain attachment. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > Ken O > > > > > > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, 11464 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 8:06am Subject: Re: The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary :To Robert Kirkpatrick Dear Robert How are you? You wrote: "...since vipaka is only of one jati- whether kusala or akusala - couldn't it also be that the bhavanga in all realms are considered as 'luminous'? An extremly minor point, I know, and I ask only out of shear curiosity." I think you are referring to Section 370 in the Dhammasangani and Page 140 in Atthasalini regarding the term 'pandharam'. It is true that Buddhaghosa explained pre-emptively in Atthasalini why unhealthy mind (akusala cittam) is still called "luminous" in Section 370 by saying that even the akusala mind can be described as being "white/luminous" for reason of coming out of bhavanga mind (which goes by the name of the white luminous mind ). But, in Section 556 in Atthasalini, after having been reborn in the four types of rebirths (apaaya) lower than the human one, the akusala bhavanga is described as having unpleasant undesirable objects or stimuli (anittha and anitthamajjattaaramana). So the rebirth and the stimuli for the akusala bhavanga minds are unpleasant and undesirable. As such, even if we considered these akusala bhavanga minds to be luminous, they are luminous only in name, not in reality. Not only that, the context of the Section 49 in Ekakanipaata, Anguttara Nikaaya, and that of Section 370 in Dhammasangani and Page 140 in Atthasalini are also different. The context in the Section 49 is how the Buddha described the luminous bhavanga mind as being tarnished by akusala minds, which amounted to blaming the former for being the starting point for dirty javana minds. In short, the Buddha did not described akusala javana minds as "white luminous (pandharam)" in the context of Section 49. He called them blots. Therefore, in line with the context of the Section 49 of the Suttam,the commentary, and the subcommentary, I wrote in my sub- subcommentary that "only the bhavañga cittas of the human beings and the sensuous gods have the natural absence of blots that can also tarnish them from time to time." I hope my explanation helps. If you still need further discussion on this matter or have more points for me to resolve, please let me know. For now, it is already 3 a.m in Canberra, and I become very sleepy. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Suan, > I have just had the pleasure of reading your articles about luminous > mind at your website. Finally, thanks to your comments about > children/parents etc I understand what the Tika and commentaries were > getting at with this simile. > One point: where you say that lower realms bhavanga can't be > considered luminous because it is akusala vipaka citta. I can see > that this might be so , but since vipaka is only of one jati- whether > kusala or akusala - couldn't it also be that the bhavanga in all > realms are considered as 'luminous'? An extremly minor point, I know, > and I ask only out of shear curiosity . > best wishes > robert 11465 From: Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/24/02 3:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > O.K. Howard - once I put the book down.... get up out of the > ditch..... and hop onto the lily pad....... Hang on! How was I > holding the book, or was that before the transmogrification? Howard, > are you working too hard, my friend? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: No doubt! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > > <<<<<<"Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching > intently, > waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment.">>>>>> > Something vaguely Zen about this, --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Had that in mind! ;-) --------------------------------------------------- is that allowed??? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'd strongly doubt that! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- > > "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It first appeared in a sub-, sub-, sub-commentary by an arahant who had visited the naga realm. --------------------------------------------------------- > I'm quite impressed that one can just lie in wait for enlightenment > and zap it as it passes by....... > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm! But the waiting must be without expectation or anticipation. --------------------------------------------------------- > I think you have something here, Howard .....We just have to find > a 'bait' to entice it by......... Hmmmm, May I be the agent for your > Speaking Tour? We could plan Workshops, Retreats, Support Groups for > the "I was THIS close brigade", and ........... > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have every expectation of collecting many followers! -------------------------------------------------------- I just had to erase > > about ten lines that even I thought was over-doing it........ :-) > ( And you know I'm on 'sensitive' ground with the Moderators.) > > metta, > Christine =================================== With amphibian metta, Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Christine - > > > > In a message dated 2/23/02 11:00:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any > self- > > > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > > > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > > > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in > Nyanatilokas' > > > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > > > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) > AND > > > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > > > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > > > morality)? > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I think you need to put that book down! ;-)) > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I > was > > > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you > are > > > all responsible somehow........ > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > We know we're on the right track when things don't all seem > wonderful. > > We know we've slipped into a ditch on the side of that track when > things all > > look terrible! > > ;-)) > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > > > progressing).......... > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Impossible. The capacity is there. But don't worry about > making > > progress; just pay attention to what's going on, wherever and > however we are. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > > > of > > > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in > future, > > > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > > > > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I > feel > > > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to > look at > > > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > > > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > > > - > > > water-element? > > > > > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > > > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > > > (jara). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching > intently, > > waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > metta, > > > Christine > > > > > > > > ========================== > > With metta, > > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11466 From: Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/24/02 4:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Mike B, > > Thanks for indicating your presence and giving yourself the 'B' without > being asked;-) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: My welcome, as well, Mike B, from another list member. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, the Mikes are rapidly catching up with the Robs....> > though there's no sign of the original Mike just now.....;-(( ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: In that regard, Sarah, I wrote Mike N a few days ago to see how things are going, but I have not as yet rec'd a reply. Do you think you can reach him somehow? ------------------------------------------------------ > > If I can encourage you to say a few words about yourself, your mindful > lurking or interest here, I know everyone would be very glad. > > Thanks again for 'breaking the ice', > Sarah > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11467 From: Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 1:57pm Subject: frog Dear Christine, Thanks for sharing part of your life and family with us. Let me share with you, your daughter and the families that lost their loved ones about the untimely and unexpected loss. I have also learned from your story. Reminded me of Milindapanha. Ven. Nagasena said that the wise king always erects the city wall and digs the canal around the city long before the enemy is coming close. Jara and morana are always near by. You mentioned about asuba, I think this word has a very deep meaning, things are not that as pretty as we perceived b/c they are arisen and completely fallen away. Morananusati is when we (sati) see realities as the way they are, arise and fall away completely all the time, khanika-morana. Your story also reminded me of my mom. When I was very young, my mom went to her friend's kid funeral and when she came back, she said to all of us that one thing in her life she wished for is; she will not ever have to go to her own kid's funeral. I can imagine that it's very hard to deal with. ……………………… "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. Compassion is a mental state which only arises under very specific conditions and then falls away immediately. Like all other mental states, it is inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self again. Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so mixed with other feelings that the part that is pure compassion doesn't last for even the tiniest part of a moment? 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we encouraged to promote karuna, in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is this another misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) ………………………. Have you read this article, 38 misleading realities? Metta and karuna are mentioned 4-5 times in this article. They can be confused with some fine akusala moments. It's on dhammastudy website. http://www.dhammastudy.com/vancaka.html I hope I can learn from you again this time from your analysis about karuna. When I first read that even pleasant feeling (sukha-vedana) is dukkha, I was pretty surprised. I also felt the same after I read piyajatika sutta, ………………. << "That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is -- for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear." >> << "But lord, who would ever think that sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? Happiness & joy are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear." >> So the householder, not delighting in the Blessed One's words, rejecting the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and left. ……………….. I have to admit that I still agree with the householder, but at the same time, I lean an ear listens to the Buddha. I really appreciate Nina's input about the Buddha's limitless kindness, compassion and wisdom in cases of Sirima and Kisagotami. I also appreciate your energy (viriya) in learning Pali. I do not know much about Pali but if you ask me about how many kinds frog, butterfly or bug around my house (in Thailand), for sure I can tell you a lot more. Watching the life cycle and a metamorphosis of a frog is fascinating. Tree frog is very pretty and it lays its eggs on a branch of a tree, waits for the rain to wash hundreds of tadpoles down to the pond below. A jumping frog is very hard to catch but becomes completely froze with a direct bright light from a torch and then it is very easily to catch it. BTW, frog en Pali is "manduka". Could you also please give your daughter my regard. Best wishes. Num 11468 From: Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 2:18pm Subject: Meeting archive, to Nina. Dear Nina, This is what I discussed with my aunt this weekend. It's from indriyavibanga, page 167 PTS. << Seven controlling faculties have no objects. Four controlling faculties should not be said to have either, path as their objects (maggarammana); path as their cause (maggahetuka) or path as their dominating factor (maggadhipati). Controlling faculty of initial enlightenment (anannatannassamitindriya) does not have path as its object; (sometimes)* has path as its cause; sometimes has path as it dominating factor; sometimes should not be said to have, (path as its cause)* or path as it dominating factor. Controlling faculty of intermediate enlightenment (annindriya) does not have path as its object; sometimes has path as its cause, sometimes has path as its dominating factor; sometimes should not be said to have, path as its cause or path as its dominating factor. Nine controlling faculties sometimes have path as their object; sometimes have path as their cause; sometimes have path as their dominating factor; sometimes should not be said to have either, path as their object; path as their cause or path as their dominating factor. >> We talked about the definitions of maggarammana, maggahetuka and maggadhipati. I got stuck there at the 4 indriyas are "should not be said to have either, path as their objects (maggarammana); path as their cause (maggahetuka) or path as their dominating factor (maggadhipati)." The meaning is very subtle and intricate but I think it is important to test myself of how much do I really understand what I think I understand. We also talked about adhipatipaccaya. Pariyatti is fun but not that easy. Luckily, I take it as something fun and fascinating to learn. I am really appreciated when someone bailed me out from a pitch of doubts. Thanks you (and Jon) again for definition and examples of sammapadha. That was very helpful. If I not get stuck too often, hope I will get to that part of Vibanga soon. I also told her that I plan to read Jatakas to my nieces and nephews when I get back home. I have to read it first and then will pick some jatakas, which I think appropriate for kids. I think some of the Jatakas needed to be censured!!, I just scanned through it very briefly. One of the jakata is pretty graphic. Hmmm, same dhamma is not good for everyone:) I relayed your message to my aunt rgd telling K.Kanchana about the translation. Topic in lecturer meeting this week was about ayatana and the another one was about does entering palasamapatti need jhana-sampatti as a preexisting factor? My aunt told me that there will be an archive of lecturer meeting printed out in Thai for free distribution on this Maghapuja day. She will ask whether someone can send you a word.doc document to you. I think I can ask K.Amara for that, I would like to read it too. I will keep you post. Appreciate. Num 11469 From: mikebrotherto Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 2/24/02 4:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > > Dear Mike B, > > > > Thanks for indicating your presence and giving yourself the 'B' without > > being asked;-) > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > My welcome, as well, Mike B, from another list member. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Yes, the Mikes are rapidly catching up with the Robs....> > > though there's no sign of the original Mike just now.....;-(( > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > In that regard, Sarah, I wrote Mike N a few days ago to see how things > are going, but I have not as yet rec'd a reply. Do you think you can reach > him somehow? > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > If I can encourage you to say a few words about yourself, your mindful > > lurking or interest here, I know everyone would be very glad. > > > > Thanks again for 'breaking the ice', > > Sarah > > > ============================ > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) Greetings! May this find you all well and at peace. Since I am from Memphis, Tennessee (Southern USA), we would usually say 'may this find ya'll well and at peace,' but I won't. I honor this group for its determination to penetrate the truth of realities through the path of knowledge. Traces of now still remain of the last 30 years in which meditation has arisen and fallen in this body/mind. Most of those moments were spent, however, ignorantly toying with energy - acheiving transcendental states, carelessly playing with kundalini ("thinking" it was spiritual). I naively, but sincerely, devoted myself to Swami Rama, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (now remarketed as Osho for you kids), and Da Free John (all of whom wrote ass-kicking dhamma but had a slight problem with that darn sex precept). Frank (I mean Da Free John) truly transmits incredible insight and I will always cherish that. Amazing - but during all that time I never understood that Buddhism was the foundation of it all. How strange! To make a short story shorter, conditions arose where I opened the eyes and found myself in Sangha here in Memphis of all places - the home of Elvis! I didn't have to go to Fiji to visit Frank (I mean Da Free John) after all. I take refuge in Sangha like a drowning mouse in a hurricane. We have a wonderful group here and practice has been fruitful. We spent a Day of Mindfulness yesterday in silent sitting / walking meditation.(It only took me about five hours for the mind to concede and find myself squatting in the grass looking at a pile of dogshit with all of these beautiful baby flies scooting about with gleeful abandon. There was such rapture, I wept. Truly an enlightened moment, which, seem to arise more and more frequently. I have finally remembered what I had been missing all these years - a virtuous life. I forgot after millions of births that it is simply a prerequisite. I had been putting effort into concentration without balancing it with insight. I now understand the absolute necessity of balancing the 8 fold path to remain accessible to panna. Right view and right effort are so slippery. But yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, all there is - is now. What is one to do but sit? I will have the honor of being in retreat with Bhante Gunaratana next week in St. Louis, Missouri. In May, another 10 day retreat with Matthew Flickstein.I vow to remain present as much as possible in this lifetime. Who knows? I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of mindful presence. Although, I must admit, with utmost respect to all, that I wonder when some of you find the time to actually be still and let it be. Like my mama used to say 'you keep picking at that scab it's never going to heal'. Nina, especially, your work has been such an influence in creating appropriate conditions for mindfulness. I am learning Pali by studying your teaching and can follow you guys most of the time. May all y'all realize nibbana in this lifetime. With metta, Mike Brotherton 11470 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion and Detachment Dear Christine, Good question. How do compassion and detachment accord with each other? Are they not a contradiction? I'm not very good with dictionaries so I'll just give you my own thoughts and definitions that I've chewed on over the years. Compassion: Caring about someone enough to try to remove their suffering. Detachment: The self as we think of it does not exist. People are just collections of conditional factors that cause suffering. How can we remove the suffering of someone who doesn't exist? Compassion: Even though beings are only conditional and there is no 'self' to be found within, suffering exists for the consciousness that suffers. Therefore, ending suffering is two-fold: 1/ Reducing conditional sufferings by acts of metta: kindness, compassion, empathy, helping: feed the hungry, heal the sick, etc. 2/ Help end the delusion of self, so that sufferings no longer have a root. The latter is a long way off, suffering will continue for a long time; meanwhile - do what you can while trying to understand and communicate the dhamma. Robert ===================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > I find a little confusion between what I thought were universally > accepted meanings for qualities to be encouraged, and the different > interpretation that I think buddhism seems to place upon them. > Compassion is one of those qualities. I began > considering 'compassion' initially as a result of looking > at 'attachment' (saraga) and 'detachment' (viveka, and viraga), in > relation to the reactions of myself and others after the deaths of > the young friends. [Start anywhere in buddhism and everything leads > to everything else (Just as attachment has led to kilesas, vedana, > anicca, anatta, dukkha, kamma, conditions and roots - Nothing can be > compartmentalised or seen in isolation).] > > But, how can we be 'compassionate' and 'detached' at the same time? > Compassion seems to carry with it overtones of warmth and love; > detachment seems to carry coldness, unfeeling. Or, can we only be > compassionate if we are detached? Wouldn't non-attached be a more > appropriate choice of word, given that detached can be a derogatory > term, meaning uninvolved, callous, indifferent (or even mentally > unbalanced)? And doesn't compassion need action, to differentiate it > from common pity, or emotional self-indulgence? > > > the definition in > Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7):(taken from dsg post 3774) > "Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffering. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: 'cruelty'/'non-cruelty' ...... in oneself, or in others? > Is any physically helpful action implied here, or just introspection? > What about tragic happenings? Are they included in the > term 'cruelty'? Probably not, because they cannot be controlled > and 'caused to subside'....... So, this is probably about > introspection/contemplation.......not 'action'.... > 'Promoting the removal of suffering in others' - Yes, I see now that > this is probably what the Buddha was doing in sending Kisagotami > around from house to house? But what about the story of Sirima? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dictionary Meanings of Compassion: > From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn) > Compassion - a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's > suffering; the humane quality of understanding the suffering of > others and wanting TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. > Detachment - avoiding emotional involvement [wyn: {withdrawal}] > In the Manual of buddhist Terms and Doctrines by Nyanatiloka Mahathera > Compassion is listed as Karuna > Karuna is listed as Compassion > Detachment - 1. viveka: detachment, seclusion, is according to > Niddesa, of 3 kinds: (1) bodily detachment (káya-viveka), i.e. > abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects; (2) mental > detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from sensuous > things; (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi- > viveka). > - 2. virága: fading away, detachment; absence of lust, > dispassionateness. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Christine: I have read the Useful Post on 'compassion': > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3774 > and I am having a little difficulty with the following paragraphs in > that post: > > "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. > Compassion is a mental state which only arises under > very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is > inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not > worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > again. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so > mixed with other feelings that the part that is pure compassion > doesn't last for even the tiniest part of a moment? > 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we encouraged to promote karuna, > in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is this another > misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And > compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this > moment are merely these different mental and physical > phenomena, so we know from this experience that this > is how it must be for others too, even though we don't > directly experience the other's compassion, for > example." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Are you saying: 'There is no-one here or there > anyway.......so, why bother...'? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Christine 11471 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:40pm Subject: Beauty and the Beast Dear Frank, Num and Christine, Num wrote: >You mentioned about asuba, I > > think this word has a very deep meaning, things are not that as pretty > as we > perceived b/c they are arisen and completely fallen away. We discussed a little more about vipallasas in Bangkok and your pertinent comment reminded me that Frank was asking some time ago about subha (beautiful) and asubha (foul) (I don’t think anyone replied directly, solet me do a cut and paste job here): Frank: > Now, I happen to be one of the big proponents of the > contemplation of impurities, and seeing the body as > loathsome. I think it's a big mistake for modern > westerners to neglect this aspect of practice because > it doesn't accord with their more delicate > sensibilities. However, I don't think that 4th > vipallasa belongs in the company of the other 3. Just as a reminder (Num or Kom, let me know if I slip up anytime here): The vipallasas are of 3 kinds, i.e sanna-vipallasa (perversion of perception), citta-vipallasa (perversion of consciousness) and ditthi-vipallasa (perversion of view). Of these, the first two arise now with every akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness) while the third (ditthi vipallasa) arises whenever there is wrong view and is eradicated by the sotapanna. The 4 perversions themselves (i.e. 4x3 categories) are a) regarding impermanent as permanent, b) painful as pleasant, c) non-self as self, d) foul as beautiful. (see Kom’s clearer grid and details at the end of the post). With regard to the last one (foul as beautiful), the wrong view about it has been eradicated by the sotapanna, but the sanna and citta-vipallasas which cling to the beautiful in the foul are only eradicated by the anagami (3rd stage of enlightenment). As I understand, sometimes when we read about asubha and asubha sanna, it is referring to the parts of the body as in the cemetery contemplations, when the foulness of the body is used as object of samatha (asubha-kammatthana) as Frank discussed. However, when we are discussing the vipallasas, the meaning is not confined to parts of the body at all. If we look at the computer and think it’s a nice colour or preferable to the colour of the wall, there is clinging (with or without wrong view) to beauty in the foul. Hence, sanna and citta vipallasa with regard to taking what is asubha (foul) for subha (beautiful) is only eradicated by the anagami along with the attachment to sense pleasures . Frank, I hope this helps. Attachment to sense objects is so pernicious. The anagami has no more of this kind of attachment but still has (very subtle) attachment for other objects such as bhava (becoming), kusala citta or samadhi. The only perversions the anagami still has are sanna and citta vipallasa with regard to finding pleasure in the painful (i.e. finding sukkha in dukkha) which is only eradicated by the arahat. (Vism XX11,68). Let me finish with a quote from B.Bodhi’s translation of ‘Distortions of Perception, AN, 1V, 61 with useful reminders of how ‘mentally deranged’ we are: “Those who perceive the changeful to be permanent, Suffering as bliss, a self in the selfless, And who see in the foul the mark of beauty - Such folk resort to distorted views, mentally deranged, subject to illusions. Caught by Mara, not free from bonds, They are still far from the secure state. Such beings wander through the painful round And go repeatedly from birth to death. But when the Buddhas appear in the world, The makers of light in a mass of darkness, They reveal this Teaching,the noble Dhamma, That leads to the end of suffering. When people with wisdom listen to them, They at last regain their sanity. They see the impermanent as impermanent, And they see suffering just as suffering. They see the selfless as void of self, And in the foul they see the foul. By this acceptance of right view, They overcome all suffering.” ********** May right view be developed to ‘overcome all suffering’. Sarah =========================================== From Kom’s earlier post: As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only with the 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) with micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and citta vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some ariyans exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in sobhana (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu cetasikkas) cittas. The objects of the vipalassa are four: 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance 2) Seeing dukha as sukha 3) Seeing anatta as atta 4) Seeing asubha as subha The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one becomes an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are as followed: ...... ........Impermanence Dukha Anatta Asubha Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X SagatakamiX X X S C X X X X S C X Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D ********** 11472 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:51pm Subject: Where in the world........ Dear Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > Howard: > In that regard, Sarah, I wrote Mike N a few days ago to see how > things > are going, but I have not as yet rec'd a reply. Do you think you can > reach > him somehow? > ------------------------------------------------------ Hmm......I think we're all up against the same problem in this regard...He returned to Seattle, as I understand, about a month ago now and was expecting a tough time finding work and so on after his other plans didn't work out as expected (do they ever?). Hopefully, when he's 'settled' again, we'll all be hearing good reminders from him here again. I'm only too aware of the attachment, expectations, concern (read worry and other dosa) and other unwholesome mental states as I write about a dear friend;-) Sarah ============================================== 11473 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death,/RobEp Dear Christine, Thanks for the reference on the Lady Patacara. I am glad you found some comfort in the story and my message. It may not make sense, but I believe that we can feel compassion for others, and offer metta in the difficult times in each others' lives, while still firmly pursuing the truth of anatta. If we were not compassionate, why would we want to save ourselves and others from the suffering of false notions of self? If it were only selfish to want to end this suffering, how could this selfishness possibly lead to abandonment of self? There must be something in compassion that is both detached from self and yet not detached from suffering. That seems to me to be the middle way between clinging to self and others and clinging to anatta. Best, Robert Ep. ========================= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Rob, I found your post very moving and comforting. My daughter > Sarah is doing well, though a little tired from supporting others, > working, and going to University. But tired is a good thing at the > moment. And she has house guests - another exchange student from New > York, female this time, and a friends' cousin from New Zealand. Half > a dozen of H..... and A....... mates come around most evenings, and > many old friendships have been renewed. One is not doing so well - > the boy that held everyone else up before and during the funeral, and > who gave the Eulogy for both his best friends, but she is keeping a > watch and he won't be left alone to deal with this over the coming > year. > > Thank you for Ajahn Brams' story. > You say: " I thought it pointed out beautifully that the most > desperate events in our lives can sometimes strengthen our > involvement with the Dhamma." Exactly so, Rob, I found this event, > which didn't affect me directly, caused a reconsidering of just what > is/is not worthwhile in life, and, among other things, made me > thankful that the Dhamma is still available relatively unchanged and > all of us have further time to study it. > > I think Ajahn Brams is talking about the Lady Patacara. She became > a Nun and eventually, an Arahat. > http://www.buddhanet.net/28lbud.htm > > Thanks again Rob, > I'll show (my) Sarah your Post, she will also be touched by it, > > Metta, > Chris > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > I'm working my way backwards through posts, and was just shocked to > read about the > > tragic events in your and your daughter's life. I'm sorry you had > to go through > > that. > > > > It is true this life is full of sufferings, and we have all had our > share, but > > none of what you talked about seemed like 'kid stuff' to me. I > think your balance > > in the midst of all this is admirable and shows some real > steadiness in your > > understanding of the teachings you have been working so hard with. > > > > By a strange coincidence, a friend from Australia just sent me a CD > with lectures > > by Ajahn Bhramavamso on Theravada and meditation. He told one > story which some > > here may be familiar with about the Buddha and a woman who came to > him. I thought > > it pointed out beautifully that the most desperate events in our > lives can > > sometimes strengthen our involvement with the Dhamma. > > > > He spoke of a woman who had had the worst possible tragedies befall > her all at > > once during the time of the Buddha. Her husband had been killed > and she was > > trying to go visit her father with her two children. A terrible > storm wound up > > killing both children and on the road she received news that her > father had also > > died in the storm. She went totally mad and wandered around naked > from her own > > encounter with the flood for days. Eventually by karmic conditions > she wandered > > in this state into the grove where the Buddha was teaching his > disciples. Those > > guarding the periphery wanted to keep her out, but the Buddha saw > what was > > happening and told them to let her in. He gave her a cloak to > cover herself with > > and gave her a place to sit and receive the teachings. With > nothing left of her > > former life, within a short period of time she reached full > enlightenment and > > became an arahat. > > > > I just thought that at this particular moment when I have been > thinking about this > > story, that you might want to hear about it. > > > > I'm very sorry for you having to have gone through the current > circumstances, and > > also wish your daughter the very best. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 11474 From: smallchap Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:16pm Subject: Re: Meeting archive, to Nina. Hi Sum > This is what I discussed with my aunt this weekend. Would be very grateful if you could give a brief introduction of your aunt. Is she a Dhamma/Meditation teacher? Is she a nun? If you find it inconvenient to disclose her background, I would understand. > Topic in lecturer meeting this week was about ayatana and the another one was about does entering palasamapatti need jhana-sampatti as a preexisting factor? What is palasamapatti? What is jhanna-sampatti? Pardon my poor grasp of the pali. Most appreciated for your reply. smallchap 11475 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's/RobEp....... Hi Christine, First of all, I have complete respect for Howard's integrity, but I think that there is some room for misinterpretation of the 'tongue-zap' enlightenment out on the road, among less enlightened audiences. I suggest to you and Howard that you consider an alternative amphibian whose way of waiting for enlightenment to approach is with a less controversial body part. Perhaps you could have a crocodile who waits patiently in the swamp of samsara to snap its jaws shut on the tasty feast of enlightenment when it ventures by, or something like that. Second of all, I'd be happy to have you work my comment about seeing each moment without secondary judgments into your act, as long as you respect the copyright, mention my name whenever you mention the phrase, and pay an appropriate percentage of any royalties that may accrue to you and Howard in the performance of this part of your routine. I think Howard, as a mathematician, should be in an ideal position to calculate the exact percentage of your seminar that is based in my idea of "How You Can Tell When You're Finally An Arahat", and calculate the proper amount of payment, taking into account the rate of inflation and all other relevant or possibly relevant factors. It's all for the sake of the Dhamma however, and any profits I realize from this venture will be funneled back into contemplating anatta in each moment, as my television schedule allows of course. Best Regards, Robert Ep. ================= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear RobEp, > > My first sensible reply to your really much appreciated post seems to > have vanished into cyberspace. So, because of that this happens, if > that hadn't happened neither would this ....... is there a faint echo > of something there? :-) > > - just one further question..... > > You say: "When you see each detail just as it is, without > reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even > better shape, > but by then you'll probably be an arahat." > > How can I work that bit into the 'tongue-zap' enlightenment program? > Would you like to be a guest lecturer, I feel you'd go really well > with the Support Group......... :-) > > I think I need to have a glass of hot milk and retire for the night. > Sunday night here, MondayMania already....... > > much metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Geez, Christine, > > What you are lost in is....lost in Pali. hee hee.....I hope > you're having fun, > > you know more Pali now than I will probably ever manage. > > > > As for your wonderment at seeing how 'defiled' you are [not you > really, really > > just the kandhas associated with your name, body, etc.], I would say > > congratulations. the difference between someone on the path and > not on the path > > is that those not on the path don't realize what a bag of > imperfect 'stuff' > > they're made up of. If your realize this, you're in good shape, > primed for > > progress. Since discernment is the name of the game, what you are > seeing so far > > is probably a good start. When you see each detail just as it is, > without > > reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even > better shape, > > but by then you'll probably be an arahat. > > > > Love, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ==================== > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any > self- > > > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > > > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > > > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in > Nyanatilokas' > > > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > > > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) > AND > > > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > > > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > > > morality)? > > > > > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I > was > > > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you > are > > > all responsible somehow........ > > > > > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > > > progressing).......... > > > > > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > > > of > > > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in > future, > > > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > > > > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I > feel > > > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to > look at > > > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > > > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > > > - > > > water-element? > > > > > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > > > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > > > (jara). > > > > > > metta, > > > Christine 11476 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Robert, > > Thank you for responding. From reading the discourses, I have not found > that the Buddha answered the question "is there a self?" "is there no self?" > or "what is self?" "what am I?" and I also have not found the Buddha > claimed if there is a self or not, or what self is. As I understand it, > these questions and views lead to dukkha and do not lead to cessation of > dukkha. > > Regards, > Victor That's what I was thinking. It occurred to me that only someone enamoured of a 'self' would be concerned with such questions, so why ask them? Maybe I'm losing my 'mind'. Robert Ep. ===================== > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Epstein" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 12:22 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) > > > > Dear Victor, > > I appreciate the quoted Suttas. They are quite good, and quite clear on > the > > subject of identifying with or clinging to the kandhas. > > > > I notice that the Buddha never does directly tackle the question of 'is > there a > > true self?' or 'if the self is not the kandhas what is it?' He merely > states that > > 1/ the perceptual faculties are *not* annihilated, but continue to > function in > > enlightenement; and 2/ the thought of self or not-self does not occur to > one who > > is liberated. > > > > I find this very fascinating, as my deluded mind keeps wanting an *answer* > to the > > question of self. It occurs to me that this desire for an answer to the > question > > of self is another example of 'self' and that this qualifies as a > delusion. If > > the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one, then the question > of self > > is no longer a problem, is it? > > > > I don't mean this to be the case with one to whom the question of self has > never > > arisen in the first place. But to a spiritual seeker, obsessed with > either the > > eradication of 'self', the denial of 'self', or the spiritual resolution > of > > 'self'; to drop the subject of self and be content with the state of being > that is > > given, would be a transcendence of attachment and clinging to self. > > > > Best, > > he who is called Robert Ep. > > [at least around here] > > > > =============== > > > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > > > Hello Ken, > > > > > > What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself > with > > > the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for > > > references. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 > > > Bhikkhu Sutta > > > The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) > > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > > For free distribution only. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on > the > > > aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that > because > > > the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an > impermanent, > > > interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed > into > > > the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we > don't > > > feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or > > > defined. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on > arrival, > > > having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he > said > > > to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One > > > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma > from > > > the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & > > > resolute." > > > "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured > by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one > > > doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever > one > > > isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." > > > > > > "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" > > > > > > "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have > said > > > in brief?" > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured > by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] > > > > > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one > is > > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > > classified. > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > > classified. [3] > > > > > > "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have > said > > > in brief." > > > > > > "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the > > > detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured > by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one > is > > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > > classified. > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > > classified. > > > > > > "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should be > > > seen." > > > > > > Then the monk, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, > got > > > up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, > > > keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling > alone, > > > secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & > remained > > > in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth > > > from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the > here > > > & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. > > > There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became > > > another one of the arahants. > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > Notes > > > 1. The obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession > of > > > resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the > > > obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the > > > obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12. [Go back] > > > > > > 2. See SN XXIII.2 [Go back] > > > > > > 3. See MN 72 [Go back] > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-036.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 > > > Samanupassana Sutta > > > Assumptions > > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > > For free distribution only. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives > or > > > priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the > five > > > clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the > case > > > where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for > noble > > > ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no > regard > > > for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their > Dhamma -- > > > assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, > or > > > form as in the self, or the self as in form. > > > "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, > or > > > feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. > > > > > > "He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing > perception, > > > or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. > > > > > > "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as > possessing > > > fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in > > > fabrications. > > > > > > "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing > > > consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in > > > consciousness. > > > > > > "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. > And > > > so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the > > > appearance of the five faculties -- eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the > > > senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch). > > > > > > "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there > is > > > the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, > > > touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the > > > thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall > be > > > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > > > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither > percipient > > > nor non-percipient.' > > > > > > "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to > them > > > the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and > gives > > > rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising > of > > > clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I > shall > > > not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall > be > > > percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be > > > neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Victor, > > > > > > > > All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even > in a > > > > Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still > we > > > > need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to > release > > > > ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just > views, > > > > what we are doing now are just plain attachment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > Ken O > > > > > > > > > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, 11477 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow Dear Rob K, Like everyone else, i’ve been appreciating your paticcasamuppada series. Just one small point which I happened to raise in Bkk as I’d had a doubt about a point someone else had made with regard to the inherent kusala vs akusala nature of particular moments of seeing consciousness, so it's rather fresher than usual in my mind: --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > ..... Also the visible object is conditioned: at this moment the > object is words about Dhamma and so the eye consciousness is the result > of > good kamma. > I’m not sure we can say this necessarily. I don’t think it is the content of the book which we can say determines the sense door vipaka at that moment. For example, if the visible object is an old, dusty book impinging on the eye door, the eye consciousness may well be akusala vipaka. When I asked K.Sujin the question about any inherent kusala vs akusala nature, she replied that we can never know whether any given visible object at any time is kusala or akusala vipaka with one exception; 'seeing the live Buddha'. ********** Let me remind everyone to make use of all the excellent materials which you now have on your website at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ There is also a very useful (and easily accessible) Buddhist search engine on it which I sometimes use. The other day, I downloaded a simplified (and imaginative rendering) of a Jataka story called “Mr Monkey and Sir Crocodile” from Jataka 57 I read the story to some young students, asked them to write a summary and then determine what they thought was the moral of the story. This was interesting. Two thought the moral was not to harm or kill others (which worked well from the story), another thought the moral was not to speak out without thinking wisely first (another good choice), but the one given in the simplified story was “the moral is: a good loser is a true gentleman” reflecting how Sir Crocodile congratulates Mr Monkey on out-smarting him. I decided to check the original Jataka (in which Mr Monkey was the Buddha and Sir Croc was Devadatta). Here the moral is given in this verse: “Whoso, O monkey-king, like you, combines Truth, foresight, fixed resolve, and fearlessness, shall see his routed foemen turn and flee.” Anyway, thanks to the simplified story (which my students greatly enjoyed), I got to pulling out my old, dusty Jataka texts and regardless of the vipaka, there were conditions for many moments of useful reflection;-) Thanks Rob for all your work on the website. I see 'Cetasikas' can now be found here too. Sarah ========== 11478 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 2/24/02 3:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It first appeared in a sub-, sub-, sub-commentary by an arahant who > had visited the naga realm. > --------------------------------------------------------- Didn't realize they had frogs there. Best, Robert Ep. 11479 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: >. > > Just one small point which I happened to raise in Bkk as I'd had a doubt > about a point someone else had made with regard to the inherent kusala vs > akusala nature of particular moments of seeing consciousness, so it's > rather fresher than usual in my mind: > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > ..... Also the visible object is conditioned: at this moment the > > object is words about Dhamma and so the eye consciousness is the result\of good kamma. > > > I'm not sure we can say this necessarily. I don't think it is the content > of the book which we can say determines the sense door vipaka at that > moment. For example, if the visible object is an old, dusty book impinging > on the eye door, the eye consciousness may well be akusala vipaka. When I > asked K.Sujin the question about any inherent kusala vs akusala nature, > she replied that we can never know whether any given visible object at any > time is kusala or akusala vipaka with one exception; 'seeing the live > Buddha'. >========================== Dear Sarah, Yes, it is true that we can't always be sure that any given citta is kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. For instance, I mentioned a while back the case of holding a warm soft dogshit in the hand and how most people think this is akusala. However, the Patthana commentary noted that the vipaka through body sense is actually kusala (because warm and soft) while through the eyesense and nose sense akusala- for obvious reasons. In a short moment these different vipakas alternate many times, but one might not be aware of how it is changing. In my example above I do not think it is wrong to say that there is kusala vipaka when reading Dhamma, otherwise we have to be so detailed and specific and point out intricate matters that can distract from the main point. We can see many examples from the texts where the Buddha spoke generally without doing this. In the case above it is certainly true that while reading the message there would have been many moments of akusala vipaka that passed unnoticed but as I was writing in order to simplify a complex topic I think it is appropriate to ignore this. People already complain about Abhidhmamma on d-l where I started this series; they find it scholarly. If I bring in too many points it can turn people off. best wishes robert 11480 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion and Detachment Dear Christine, S:As I’m running out of time, let me just clarify the questions you raise from an earlier post of mine (actually I didn’t know it was from one of mine til I checked;-) ..... --- christine_forsyth wrote: S:> the definition in > Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7):(taken from dsg post 3774) > "Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffering. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: 'cruelty'/'non-cruelty' ...... in oneself, or in others? > Is any physically helpful action implied here, or just introspection? ..... S:I’m now looking at the PTS translation of the Atthasalini (p259) in which we read about the same passage:- ..... “Pity has the characteristic of evolving the mode of removing pain; the manifestation of kindness; the proximate cause of seeing the need of those ovecome by pain. Its consummation is the quieting of cruelty; its failure is the production of sorrow.” ..... S:Chris, the compassion (or other brahma viharas we read about) always refer to one’s ‘own’ mental states regardless of whether we are merely thinking about the other or physically nursing wounds so to speak. When there is kindness prompted by seeing (or reflecting on) the other’s pain or suffering, there is no harshness or cruelty at that moment. The near enemy of compassion, however, is ‘sorrow’. As soon as we feel sad for the other, it’s no longer compassion. ..... C:> What about tragic happenings? Are they included in the > term 'cruelty'? Probably not, because they cannot be controlled > and 'caused to subside'....... So, this is probably about > introspection/contemplation.......not 'action'.... ..... S:I’ve forgotten what the pali term is for cruelty (also used in the Vism), but this is the far enemy of compassion. When one is cruel, there cannot be compassion. Maybe you can think about the way children play with insects as an example of this. Again it’s the mind-state being referred to which also cannot be ‘controlled’.. However, by reflecting on the value of compassion and the harm of sorrow and grief, this will be a condition for the unwholesome qualities to ‘subside’. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Christine: I have read the Useful Post on 'compassion': > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3774 > and I am having a little difficulty with the following paragraphs in > that post: > S:> "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. > Compassion is a mental state which only arises under > very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is > inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not > worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > again. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so > mixed with other feelings that the part that is pure compassion > doesn't last for even the tiniest part of a moment? > 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we encouraged to promote karuna, > in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is this another > misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And > compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S:All realities are inherently unsatisfactory including those like compassion that we’re used to thinking of as being very satisfactory. So we are encouraged to see the value of wholesome states including the Brahama Viharas, but not to cling to having these same certain states. If we are concerned to be the wise or compassionate person or even just tohave more compassion right now, it shows the attachment again. When there’s attachment, there’s no wisdom or compassion. When there’s compassion, it’s always concerned about the other,. As you say, like metta or the other brahma viharas, it’s never self-directed. It’s not easy I know to see the difference between understanding the value of certain mental factors and the harm of clinging to these same factors. Let me know if this still isn’t clear as I also find it helpful to reflect on. ..... Sarah:> Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this > moment are merely these different mental and physical > phenomena, so we know from this experience that this > is how it must be for others too, even though we don't > directly experience the other's compassion, for > example." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Are you saying: 'There is no-one here or there > anyway.......so, why bother...'? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S:I think I was saying that the more we understand about different realties and the more we understand about anatta, the more we realise that for others, there are just the same realities, also mistakenly taken for a self. We can never directly experience someone else’s anger or compassion, but by understanding the qualities of these mental states when they arise (for us) more and more precisely, we know that these same states which arise for others are also anatta. When we say ‘why bother’ or ‘in that case it’s all pre-determined’ as another thread is discussing, it’s just thinking rather than any understanding of the realities appearing now. There can be awareness of thinking at that moment, however, and then the question is answered for that instant;-) Please ask anything further that I haven’t clarified. Thanks for taking the trouble to read the posts and consider so carefully. You raise many really helpful points in your post and I'm also appreciating everyone else's comments on them. Sarah =========== 11481 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow Hi Rob, Understood. Many thanks and yes, the 'warm dogshit' was a good example;-) Sarah --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > Yes, it is true that we can't always be sure that any given citta is > kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. For instance, I mentioned a while > back the case of holding a warm soft dogshit in the hand and how most > people think this is akusala. However, the Patthana commentary noted > that the vipaka through body sense is actually kusala (because warm > and soft) while through the eyesense and nose sense akusala- for > obvious reasons. In a short moment these different vipakas alternate > many times, but one might not be aware of how it is changing. > > In my example above I do not think it is wrong to say that there is > kusala vipaka when reading Dhamma, otherwise we have to be so > detailed and specific and point out intricate matters that can > distract from the main point. We can see many examples from the texts > where the Buddha spoke generally without doing this. > In the case above it is certainly true that while reading the > message there would have been many moments of akusala vipaka that > passed unnoticed but as I was writing in order to simplify a complex > topic I think it is appropriate to ignore this. People already > complain about Abhidhmamma on d-l where I started this series; they > find it scholarly. If I bring in too many points it can turn people > off. > best wishes > robert > 11482 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Hello Mike B, Welcome and thank you for telling us a little about yourself. You've certainly been travelling a long and winding road, but it's great that you eventually found the way home. :-) How fortunate to be able to have the opportunity to learn from Matthew Flickstein And Bhante Gunaratana ...... there are some disadvantages to living in the basement of the world down here - like distance from Teachers. Have you read Matthews' book "Swallowing the River Ganges"? If so, I'd be interested in your opinion and review. Look forward to any posts you care to write, Metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "mikebrotherto" wrote: > Greetings! > May this find you all well and at peace. Since I am from Memphis, > Tennessee (Southern USA), we would usually say 'may this find ya'll > well and at peace,' but I won't. > I honor this group for its determination to penetrate the truth of > realities through the path of knowledge. Traces of now still remain of > the last 30 years in which meditation has arisen and fallen in this > body/mind. Most of those moments were spent, however, ignorantly > toying with energy - acheiving transcendental states, carelessly > playing with kundalini ("thinking" it was spiritual). I naively, but > sincerely, devoted myself to Swami Rama, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (now > remarketed as Osho for you kids), and Da Free John (all of whom wrote > ass-kicking dhamma but had a slight problem with that darn sex > precept). Frank (I mean Da Free John) truly transmits incredible > insight and I will always cherish that. Amazing - but during all that > time I never understood that Buddhism was the foundation of it all. > > How strange! > > To make a short story shorter, conditions arose where I opened the > eyes and found myself in Sangha here in Memphis of all places - the > home of Elvis! I didn't have to go to Fiji to visit Frank (I mean Da > Free John) after all. I take refuge in Sangha like a drowning mouse in > a hurricane. We have a wonderful group here and practice has been > fruitful. We spent a Day of Mindfulness yesterday in silent sitting / > walking meditation.(It only took me about five hours for the mind to > concede and find myself squatting in the grass looking at a pile of > dogshit with all of these beautiful baby flies scooting about with > gleeful abandon. There was such rapture, I wept. Truly an enlightened > moment, which, seem to arise more and more frequently. I have finally > remembered what I had been missing all these years - a virtuous life. > I forgot after millions of births that it is simply a prerequisite. I > had been putting effort into concentration without balancing it with > insight. I now understand the absolute necessity of balancing the 8 > fold path to remain accessible to panna. Right view and right effort > are so slippery. But yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, all > there is - is now. What is one to do but sit? > I will have the honor of being in retreat with Bhante Gunaratana next > week in St. Louis, Missouri. In May, another 10 day retreat with > Matthew Flickstein.I vow to remain present as much as possible in this > lifetime. Who knows? > > I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of mindful > presence. Although, I must admit, with utmost respect to all, that I > wonder when some of you find the time to actually be still and let it > be. Like my mama used to say 'you keep picking at that scab it's never > going to heal'. > Nina, especially, your work has been such an influence in creating > appropriate conditions for mindfulness. I am learning Pali by studying > your teaching and can follow you guys most of the time. May all y'all > realize nibbana in this lifetime. > > With metta, > Mike Brotherton 11483 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 2:45am Subject: Re: frog Dear Num and All, Thank you, Num, for telling me about Ven. Nagasena and also about your mothers' words after attending the funeral of a friends' child. If we are still attached to others and feel grief and sorrow (as I am and do), the most difficult grief to cope with is the death of ones' own child - a death out of time, a death of the 'planned future'. May none of us ever have to face that in the times ahead.....(I have shown your post to my daughter, and passed on your regards, for which she thanks you.) No, I hadn't read the 'Vancana sabhavo - 38 Misleading Realities' before - This article is a real 'eye-opener' to me! It makes me wonder how can we be confident of anything we feel or of any motive or intention we think we have? How can we tell 'true realities' from 'mistaken realities'? Is there a sequel to this anywhere, perhaps suggesting a test that can be applied to sort the true from the false? I have to say I feel a little shaken by this article (which is good)...... While looking for where it mentions Metta and Karuna - I also found Uddhacca/viiriyaarambha, and kukkucca/sikkhaakaamataa (below), which makes me wonder about my wanting to know and learn more and more about dhamma. Is my feeling genuine?..... or is it really only mental agitation and worry? How can I tell one from the other? And how can one be changed to the other? 4. viiriyaarambhamukhena uddhacca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. Uddhacca (mental agitation) could be mistaken for viiriyaarambha (perseverance in studying the dhamma) 5. sikkhaakaamataamukhena kukkucca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. Kukkucca (worries) could be mistaken for sikkhaakaamataa (thirst for knowledge) Thanks for linking me to this thought provoking article, Num. It is good not to become complacent, - though sometime or other I hope to get to a tranquil plateau for a while :-) :-) Frogs are one of my favourite little animals (amphibians?). I have one that lives in the guttering around my roof and croaks beautifully before rain (which means he is a male, lady frogs don't croak) :-) For years frogs 'vanished' from the bush around my area - mainly due to their sensitivity to pesticides sprayed by the local authorities to control introduced plant species. But in recent years frogs are making a comeback, though threatened by introduced Cane toads and, now, Fire Ants. The Tree Frogs seem to be surviving the best though, as Cane toads can't climb. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Thanks for sharing part of your life and family with us. Let me share with > you, your daughter and the families that lost their loved ones about the > untimely and unexpected loss. I have also learned from your story. Reminded > me of Milindapanha. Ven. Nagasena said that the wise king always erects the > city wall and digs the canal around the city long before the enemy is coming > close. Jara and morana are always near by. You mentioned about asuba, I > think this word has a very deep meaning, things are not that as pretty as we > perceived b/c they are arisen and completely fallen away. Morananusati is > when we (sati) see realities as the way they are, arise and fall away > completely all the time, khanika-morana. Your story also reminded me of my > mom. When I was very young, my mom went to her friend's kid funeral and when > she came back, she said to all of us that one thing in her life she wished > for is; she will not ever have to go to her own kid's funeral. I can imagine > that it's very hard to deal with. > ……………………… > "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. Compassion is a mental > state which only arises under very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is inherently unsatisfactory > (dukkha) and therefore not worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a > more compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self again. > Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so mixed with > other feelings that the part that is pure compassion doesn't last for even > the tiniest part of a moment? 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we > encouraged to promote karuna, in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is > this another misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And > compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) > ………………………. > > Have you read this article, 38 misleading realities? Metta and karuna are > mentioned 4-5 times in this article. They can be confused with some fine > akusala moments. It's on dhammastudy website. > http://www.dhammastudy.com/vancaka.html > I hope I can learn from you again this time from your analysis about karuna. > > When I first read that even pleasant feeling (sukha-vedana) is dukkha, I was > pretty surprised. I also felt the same after I read piyajatika sutta, > ………………. > << "That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is -- for sorrow, > lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come > springing from one who is dear." >> > << "But lord, who would ever think that sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, > & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? > Happiness & joy are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is > dear." >> So the householder, not delighting in the Blessed One's words, > rejecting the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and left. > ……………….. > > I have to admit that I still agree with the householder, but at the same > time, I lean an ear listens to the Buddha. I really appreciate Nina's input > about the Buddha's limitless kindness, compassion and wisdom in cases of > Sirima and Kisagotami. > > I also appreciate your energy (viriya) in learning Pali. I do not know much > about Pali but if you ask me about how many kinds frog, butterfly or bug > around my house (in Thailand), for sure I can tell you a lot more. Watching > the life cycle and a metamorphosis of a frog is fascinating. Tree frog is > very pretty and it lays its eggs on a branch of a tree, waits for the rain to > wash hundreds of tadpoles down to the pond below. A jumping frog is very hard > to catch but becomes completely froze with a direct bright light from a torch > and then it is very easily to catch it. BTW, frog en Pali is "manduka". > > Could you also please give your daughter my regard. > > Best wishes. > > Num 11484 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost - Howard/RobEp Dear Howard and Rob, In the interests of staving off the imposition of a three-post-a-day limit as is being mooted on 'another list', I have decided to amalgamate my response to you two dear gentlemen. (How would you survive Rob on three posts a day? How would many of us survive? The third post would have to be "Sorry ..... .... you weren't drawn out of the hat today, better luck tomorrow"). Howard, are you sure all frogs are amphibians - what about tree- frogs? And desert frogs? Rob - I'm not so sure about your suggestion of a crocodile as an alternative....all very well for you, but I'm the one who is supposed to get on the lily-pad with him! And is a crocodile an amphibian? I DO like "the swamp of samsara" though, nearly as memorable as MikeB and his 'drowning mouse in a hurricane'...(what was it doing out of a pantry or a linen cupboard and in that weather?) I've actually turned off the idea of promoting Howards' Speaking Tour - he seems to be developing Delusions of Grandeur about "collecting many followers", and Rob....such a Mercenary Spirit - percentages and royalties ....I'll have to find two other role models, now that I've found out about your feet of clay...... I absolutely, positively refuse to enter into any further correspondence on any of the above, because I've forgotten how it all started.... :-) :-) Cheers, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Christine - > > > > In a message dated 2/24/02 3:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > It first appeared in a sub-, sub-, sub-commentary by an arahant who > > had visited the naga realm. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Didn't realize they had frogs there. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > 11485 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 4:04am Subject: automatic?Rob.E Dear Robert K, I assume you would think that one's 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also be something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then really, it is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better or worse? Rob E. _______________ Dear Rob. E., This is a great question; it needs the whole of the Patthana to explain it so I just give some hints. Your comment about determinism/freewill to Jon is the question that haunts all aspects of philosophy and always will. Even the Chrsitians used to argue it; cf. the debates betwen Erasmus and Luther that Dan pointed out to me.. To some extent I think trying to go onto automatic or something because one knows that theoretically there is no-self is like talking about letting go: only words. As you know the crucial factor in the eight fold path is samma-ditthi, right view; and as you also know this is understanding that comprehends the real nature of dhammas that arise at the 6doors. This type of insight depends most crucially on hearing correct Dhamma from the Buddha or his disciples and reflecting in a correct and profound way on it. There are other factors listed such as discussion on subtle points which are said to assist insight. Now these factors all depend to some degree on conditions that arise now, however they are also conditioned partly by conditions from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is to some extent a matter of vipaka conditioned by kamma a past factor. How fast and how deep one understands what one hears is largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata (merit done in the past). If one has studied Dhamma for some time there should be growing appreciation that hearing and considering it leads to more understanding and detachment: This then conditions effort to hear more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions arising in the present, but built on past ones. Nevertheless, it doesn't always work that way; why does one person go so fast, so far and another doesn't. Venerable Sunnakhata (sp?) was the Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained Jhana, I think even to the degree of having special powers of hearing. But he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had volitional control over what he did but what he couldn't see was that ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices; such a hard delusion to see through. In fact no one can stop volition because it is a conditioned dhamma. But when volition, along with other dhammas, is properly understood (a long process) there is detachment from taking volition for self. Sometimes because the results from this profound path are not quickly apparent one might lose confidence and look for something faster. However, I think other ways are dependent on conditions too. And if those conditions should be interrupted one might find that while they thought they were getting to the disease they were really only applying a palliative to the symptoms. I do believe this rather radical way of seeing into the anattaness of all dhammas gradually gives a type of detachment that isn't shaken by anything. One doesn't expect any dhamma to give satisfaction because they are inherently unstable and every change, whether for better or worse, simply confirms this - at the micro and macro level. There has to be study directly of dhammas for any real insight - but, and I think this is what Jon is showing, this type of study is only real if it is done without desire. It goes against our natural instincts but the type of effort needed is something more profound than mere trying or watching. I think people with a zen background like you and Ken O get this point fairly readily. While you are reading there may be a great deal of effort arising along with samadhi- concentration - that help any understanding that is arising.(and if my writing is too obtuse then effort and samadhi may still arise but ....) These factors are conditioned by past paccaya (conditions), some of them very recent, and some I am sure from long ago when there was the development of wisdom in other lives. However , those past conditions aren't enough by themselves to invoke more insight and so other factors , especially hearing Dhamma, from the present are needed. Also it is not that being in quiet places isn't helpful. In fact it can be very useful to be secluded and alone where there is time to devote oneself to contemplation. But this is a minor factor and not comparable to the main one of hearing Dhamma because without that ones 'contemplation' will be distorted by view. There are other factors helpful to wisdom also. Here is something from the Satipatthana sutta commentary: "Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor(wisdom): Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects. Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. Purification of the basis is the cleaning of the personal basis: the body, and of the impersonal basis: clothes and dwelling place. The flame of a lamp is unclear when its wick, oil and container are dirty; the wick splutters, flickers; but the flame of a lamp that has a clean wick, oil and container is clear and the wick does not spit; it burns smoothly. So it is with knowledge. Knowing that arises out of the mind and mental qualities which are in dirty external and internal surroundings is apt to be impure, too, but the knowledge that arises under clean conditions is apt to be pure. In this way cleanliness leads to the growth of this enlightenment factor which comprises knowledge. Personal cleanliness is impaired by the excessive length of hair of the head, nails, hair of the body, by the excess of humours, and by the dirt of perspiration; cleanliness of impersonal or external things is impaired when robes are worn out, dirty and smelly, and when the house where one lives is dirty, soiled and untidy. So personal cleanliness should be secured by shaving, hair-cutting, nail-paring, the use of pectoral emetics and of purgatives which make the body light, and by shampooing, bathing and doing other necessary things, at the proper time. In similar way external cleanliness should be brought about by darning, washing and dyeing one's robes, and by smearing the floor of one's house with clay and the like to smoothen and clean it, and by doing other necessary things to keep the house clean and tidy. "endquote robert 11486 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > you wrote: "necessary i.e., indispensable*, factors in the development > of insight > > I was curious, what are the necessary and indispensable factors in the > development of insight? > > thanks, Larry Good question, Larry. No doubt there's more than 1 answer that could be found in the suttas, but the one I find most useful is the 4 'factors for stream entry', which are also given as factors for obtaining (and increasing) wisdom. These factors are- - association with superior persons, - hearing the true Dhamma, - careful attention, - practice in accordance with the Dhamma. (We might have expected that the factors to be some method or technique. However, the truths taught by the Buddha are described as being subtle and difficult to grasp, so we should consider carefully the Buddha's choice of factors.) It is perhaps easy to overlook the great importance of the first 2 of these factors. The 'superior person' is the one who is our 'good friend' in encouraging our interest in the dhamma and who is able to explain the dhamma to us in the way we need to hear it. It includes anyone who at any time helps us to understand some aspect of the teachings (i.e., it is not necessary a teacher figure). Only by associating with such persons can we get to 'hear the true Dhamma' (the 2nd factor), since mere access to the texts on its own is not sufficient to open us to a correct understanding of their meaning. And having heard once, we need to hear again and again, which is why the association of the first factor has to be ongoing, as indeed must all factors. The 3rd factor, careful attention (presumably 'yoniso manasikara'), is both useful reflection on the true dhamma one has heard and also the awareness of realities as they appear that constitutes the guarding of the sense-doors. The development of the first 3 factors is necessary for, and at the same time leads naturally to, the 4th factor, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. This is the development of insight. I have pasted copies of the suttas (in truncated form) below. The second extract brings out the importance of all 4 factors as ongoing requirements, even for one who has already attained to the lower stages of enlightenment. Jon SN 55, 5. What is a factor for stream-entry? Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. What is the stream? This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, fright mindfulness, right concentration. What is a stream-enterer? One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan. SN 55, 55-61 Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … to the realization of the fruit of arahantship. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … of arahantship. 11487 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] three rounds and a glimpse of nibbana Nina --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jonothan, this is most helpful. I think that we first have to > understand intellectually that everything is dhamma, that is, non-self, > before dhammas can be understood as impermanent and thus dukkha? The > word > dukkha is not used in: everything is dhamma. What do you think? It must > amount to the same , but it is not quite clear. > Nina. Yes, I think this must be right. The understanding that everything is dhammas presumably would include an understanding of the nature of those dhammas. In fact there was some further discussion that may have touched on this point, but my notes are very brief. I will let you know of anything further when I have listened to the tapes. Jon > > I thought you might be interested in these brief (and rough) > recollections > > from the discussions last weekend on the meaning of sacca-nana and > > kicca-nana as 'rounds' of the Four Noble Truths (raised by Jaran, as I > > recall). > > > > Sacca-nana: > > Of the first Noble Truth, is firm intellectual understanding of the > fact > > that everything is dhammas, namas and rupas; appreciation of the > > importance of this fact. > > > > Of the 2nd Noble Truth, means that attachment is seen as the cause of > > suffering. Attachment here includes attachment to wrong practice, > since > > while there is the wrong idea about practice the natural development > of > > understanding is not possible. > > > > Of the 3rd Noble Truth, means understanding that everything must have > an > > end, that there is the possibility of extinction, since otherwise it > would > > not be possible for ignorance to be eradicated. > > > > Of the 4th Noble Truth, means firm understanding that this only is the > > path, firm understanding of the difference between right view and > wrong > > view, and of the first 3 Noble Truths. > > > > Kicca-nana: > > Any direct awareness of a nama or rupa is kicca-nana of all 4 Noble > > Truths. > > 11488 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Update Herman I think you have concluded (below) that Rob K's comments and mine are made in different contexts, since he is talking about the factors that condition the arising of a reality whereas I am taking about the characteristics of a reality. Thanks for bringing up the quote for discussion anyway, and my apologies for getting the context wrong. Jon --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Jon, ... >H: > > > Something I've been pondering lately. "The appreciation of > wholeness > > > comes only through acceptance, for to analyze means to break down > or > > > separate out. The attempt to understand totality by breaking it > down > > > is clearly the characteristically contradictory approach of the > ego > > > to everything". > > > J: > > The goal is to understand reality, not totality. The problem is > lack of > > discernment of reality (not lack of discernment of totality). > > > > My two cents. > > If I have understood him correctly, then Robert K has recently been > emphasising the reality that nothing has a single cause. There is > multiplicity of causes and effects at all times. A single step of the > paticcasma..... (well you know what I mean) in isolation is > meaningless. Any one of the four noble truths in isolation is > useless. One division of the noble eightfold path leads nowhere. > > Still, I accept what you are saying to be so. And I believe totality > to be equivalent to reality. An understanding of components is by > necessity conceptual and atta in nature. (IMHO) > > All the best > > Herman 11489 From: Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost - Howard/RobEp Hi, Chris (and Rob) - In a message dated 2/25/02 6:33:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Howard and Rob, > > In the interests of staving off the imposition of a three-post-a-day > limit as is being mooted on 'another list', I have decided to > amalgamate my response to you two dear gentlemen. (How would you > survive Rob on three posts a day? How would many of us survive? The > third post would have to be "Sorry ..... .... you > weren't drawn out of the hat today, better luck tomorrow"). > Howard, are you sure all frogs are amphibians - what about tree- > frogs? And desert frogs? ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: From the World Book Encyclopedia: Frog is a small, tailless animal with bulging eyes. Almost all frogs also have long back legs. The strong hind legs enable a frog to leap distances far greater than the length of its body. Frogs live on every continent except Antarctica, but tropical regions have the greatest number of species. Frogs are classified as amphibians. Most amphibians, including most frogs, spend part of their life as a water animal and part as a land animal. Frogs are related to toads but differ from them in several ways. --------------------------------------------- > Rob - I'm not so sure about your suggestion of a crocodile as an > alternative....all very well for you, but I'm the one who is supposed > to get on the lily-pad with him! And is a crocodile an amphibian? I > DO like "the swamp of samsara" though, nearly as memorable as MikeB > and his 'drowning mouse in a hurricane'...(what was it doing out of a > pantry or a linen cupboard and in that weather?) > I've actually turned off the idea of promoting Howards' Speaking > Tour - he seems to be developing Delusions of Grandeur > about "collecting many followers" > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: ---------------------------------------------------- , and Rob....such a Mercenary > > Spirit - percentages and royalties ....I'll have to find two > other role models, now that I've found out about your feet of > clay...... > I absolutely, positively refuse to enter into any further > correspondence on any of the above, because I've forgotten how it all > started.... :-) :-) > > Cheers, > Chris > ============================= With mad metta, Howard P.S. This is fun, but we just might be attracting the moderators' attentions! ;-)) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11490 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] who is the right person? op 24-02-2002 06:43 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > Your description of Varanasi brought back fond memories of the craziness > there. There were also a few goats on the bus. > > Well, thanks for activating my 'India File' in my brain. Dear Rob Ep, I had a good laugh about your description. But now some more serious matter. You had an interesting discussion with Jon about how we can know who is the right person who can explain the Dhamma in the right way. (I threw away the post, but I kept it in memory, perhaps this is not literal what you wrote?) These are questions that naturally come up. There is no clearcut answer, you can only find out for yourself, check yourself: is it true that lobha is like this, that dosa is like that? Is this true that this is kusala, that pleasant feeling with kusala is different from pleasant feeling with lobha? I do not quote now the Kesaputtiya sutta (people call it Kalama sutta, this is not right, it was spoken to the Kalamas of Kesaputta). A. Sujin herself had a teacher who taught her Abhidhamma, A. Neb. But she found out herself that satipatthana should be developed naturally in daily life: no forcing, no trying, not focussing on a specific reality. As for me, I listened in India to all her explanations about the underlying idea of self, when listening to Dhamma, when understanding, when thinking, and about the clinging to the importance of self, conceit. I found that I could check these things for myself. When we listen to tapes, we hear this again and again, but what formerly was heard but not completely understood makes much more sense now. I think Kom and others will have the same experience. It takes time, what we hear has to sink in. We may here many times: there is the self who wishes to develop satipatthana, the self who wishes to listen to the Dhamma, but we may not have considered this before. We can verify for ourselves: does it make sense to develop awareness naturally, in daily life? There is no need to convince others, because everyone can only find out for himself. These are just a few thoughts that came up after reading your post. Best wishes from Nina. 11491 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:13am Subject: India Ch 4, no. 3 India, Ch 4, no. 3 We are attached to the idea of my body, but, as Acharn Sujin explained, what is it that appears? When hardness impinges on the bodysense its characteristic can be experienced. Hardness appears and then falls away immediately. We know through remembrance (saññå) that we have arms, legs, and all the other body-parts, but these cannot be experienced, they are concepts that are remembered. When we truly consider that only one characteristic of rúpa is experienced at a time when it impinges on the rúpa that is the body-sense, and that it falls away immediately, we can understand, at least in theory, that our whole body we find so important does not exist in the ultimate sense. We think of who is sitting, we are attached to the idea of a sitting posture. In the ultimate sense rúpa does not sit. A posture is a conglomeration of rúpas we can think of, but it is not real in the ultimate sense. We cling to the idea of my body that is sick or healthy, but the rúpas of which the body consists arise and then fall away immediately, and they do not return. We can begin to consider rúpas such as hardness, sound or visible object as they appear in daily life, but thinking, even in the right way, is not satipatìthåna, the development of direct awareness and understanding. It is a foundation for satipatthåna. Acharn Sujin explained: ³When we touch something, hardness appears. The thinking of a concept follows instantly. Understanding develops if we know that hardness only appears at the point where it touches. The whole body does not appear, we just think of the whole body. What we take for our whole body is not my body, only hardness appears through touch. When one touches hardness one thinks that it is there all the time, but when hardness appears it must have arisen because of conditions. Whatever is real has conditions to arise; the rúpa that has arisen and appears can be the object of understanding. Paññå should be developed so that one will understand that at each moment there is no person there. Realities are not what we think them to be, we think of concepts on account of what is experienced. Understanding should be developed so that the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding, conditions the level of paìipatti, the practice, and that again the level of paìivedha, the penetration of the true nature of realities. ³ Some people believe that they should just practise, that study is not necessary, but it is necessary to know what sati and paññå are, what the object of satipatthåna is, and what the conditions are for their arising. As we have seen, the object of satipatthåna is a paramattha dhamma, an ultimate reality, that appears, not a concept. We should not forget that sati of satipatthåna is a cetasika that arises when there are the appropriate conditions, that it is not self. It is non-forgetful, mindful of the reality that appears, so that right understanding of that reality can be developed at that moment. Sati can be of different levels of kusala, it accompanies each kusala citta, it is non-forgetful of kusala: it arises with dåna, generosity, with síla, morality, with samatha and with the development of satipatthåna. Only through satipatthåna the wrong view of self can be eradicated. When we perform dåna, sati accompanies the kusala citta that is non-forgetful of kusala, but when sati is not of the level of satipatthåna, we are bound to take dåna for ³our dåna², for self. It is the same in the case of síla and samatha, if satipatthåna is not developed, one is bound to take these ways of kusala for self. Paññå is a cetasika that arises when there are the appropriate conditions, it is non-self. It may arise with dåna and síla, but it does not always accompany these ways of kusala. Paññå always accompanies mental development, including samatha and vipassanå. When we study the teachings and we acquire intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa, sati and paññå accompany the kusala citta. However, thinking of paramattha dhammas is not the same as direct awareness and understanding of the reality appearing at this moment, and this is satipatthåna. 11492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo op 24-02-2002 02:41 schreef michael newton op newtonmichael@h...: .Dhammika told me in his > email,last week,that > after Dhammadaro left the robes,he got involved with I believe refugees near > Laotian border and was > travelling in a jeep with his mother I believe,and it overturned,both dieing > instantly,is this correct,or > am I wrong-feel saddened by this-but Phra Dhammadaro,was one of the most > inspiring monks,that > opened my eyes to many things. Dear Michael, the story is a bit different. He worked for some time for the refugees. His mother and her friend came over for a vacation, and they went with A. Sujin to Ayuthya, to the home of a friend's mother. There Alan (former Phra Dh) listened intently and very relaxed to a Dhamma talk, and afterwards he and his mother went in a car with two friends, one of them on the wheel, but A. Sujin was not with them. Another car coming from the opposite direction went on the wrong side of the road and collided with them. He and his mother died. Jon and Sarah came over for the cremation and Jon gave the eulogy. (I did not see the text, is it available, Jon?)His ashes were taken into a boat and put into the river together with a portrait of him. I understand that you still find this difficult to take, you only heard it recently. Now I quote something Sarah wrote to Christine because of the tragedy of her daughter's friends: > We may think that your friends suffered in a horrific > way, but in Bangkok we discussed how really at any time, including the end > of life, there are just different experiences and feelings as there are > now. We don’t even know that your friends experienced any particular > unpleasantness, as events may have happened too fast. We would say, from a > Buddhist point of view, that life will be continuing in one form or other > just like it is for us now. end quote. A. Sujin said, the five khandhas go on and on in a next life, we do not know on which plane it is. Surely, all his accumulated understanding is not lost, it will somehow bring a good result. And even now, think of all the people he has helped to have more understanding and can develop understanding now. Also this goes on and on. I also wrote a letter about him, it may appear later on on a web. The last time Lodewijk and I saw him was in Rathbury where he went with A. Sujin to explain Dhamma to a group. He often went with her to the provinces. At lunch there we discussed visible object and thinking of a concept. He said, when you look at the floor you see what is visible but you do not pay attention to a special thing. When you are looking for a pin you notice that there is a pin lying there, you pay attention to a concept, and that is different from just seeing visible object. We took leave and then he was smiling very gently while waving and waving to us. That was the last time. Best wishes from Nina. > 11493 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow --- Dear sarah, Actually my reply was rather abrupt; we're marking exams at he moment and I slip out for quick breaks. A couple of people have asked me to turn the series into an article which I may do if I ever have time and in that case I will reword the part you mentioned or add a footnote. thanks robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Understood. > > Many thanks and yes, the 'warm dogshit' was a good example;-) > > Sarah > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, > > Yes, it is true that we can't always be sure that any given citta is > > kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. For instance, I mentioned a while > > back the case of holding a warm soft dogshit in the hand and how most > > people think this is akusala. However, the Patthana commentary noted > > that the vipaka through body sense is actually kusala (because warm > > and soft) while through the eyesense and nose sense akusala- for > > obvious reasons. In a short moment these different vipakas alternate > > many times, but one might not be aware of how it is changing. > > > > In my example above I do not think it is wrong to say that there is > > kusala vipaka when reading Dhamma, otherwise we have to be so > > detailed and specific and point out intricate matters that can > > distract from the main point. We can see many examples from the texts > > where the Buddha spoke generally without doing this. > > In the case above it is certainly true that while reading the > > message there would have been many moments of akusala vipaka that > > passed unnoticed but as I was writing in order to simplify a complex > > topic I think it is appropriate to ignore this. People already > > complain about Abhidhmamma on d-l where I started this series; they > > find it scholarly. If I bring in too many points it can turn people > > off. > > best wishes > > robert > > > > > 11494 From: Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samapatti (smallchap) Dear Smallchap, Let me say hi to you first. My name is Num. Nice meeting you. < > No nothing is inconvenient but pretty much I know about my aunt is that she is my aunt. No she is not a nun, she is a lay person who is very interested in studying dhamma as well as helping other to understand dhamma. She has been going to the foundation and listening to A.Sujin for many years. I do not know exactly what does she do at the foundation. I have never been there, myself. I have heard that she has been giving some talks over there with other speakers/lecturers. I started listening to A.Sujin by being a second hand listener (smoker) b/c I stayed at my aunt's house for a year when I first moved to Bangkok for my high school. I am now living in the US, so I sometimes ask her to send me some dhamma books to read. I just started talking with her about some dhamma not long ago. As far as I can tell, she knows a whole lot more than me and she is fun to discuss dhamma with. She has never told me to do any particular practices. As I understand, she kind of told me to keep listening and reading until I do not want to do or practice any particular rites !!!! As Christine said, I consider kalayanamitta (good, benevolent friend) highly. <> I have to say the same thing to you, pls pardon about my Pali. All Pali I know are pretty much what we use in Thai literature. I have no direct experiences with any of the samapatti. This is completely beyond my scope. Since you have asked, I can tell you from what I have read. So this is completely book knowledge, ok. 3 samapatti (means enriching arrival or reaching): 1.jhanasamapatti: (jhanna means absorption) this is mundane reaching of jhana. 2.palasamapatti: (pala means result) this is supramundane reaching of pala-citta. 3.nirodhasamapatti: (nirodha mean ceasing) this is neither mundane nor supramundane. Citta is temporary ceased during this samapatti. This one needs both jhanasamapatti and at least the 3rd level of the palasamapatti as its base. It's said that once one reaches the stage of samapatti, the citta in 1 or 2 can keep arising and falling away consecutively without other citta intervening as long as one wants (or stage of no citta in 3). As far as I can get from reading, those 3 stages are the ultimate bliss. Source: abhidhammatthasangaha, pc 4:samapatti-vithi. Hope I do not turn you off with more confusing Pali terms. Studying has different levels. I think learning about names of realities may not even be necessary or sufficient. Let me say this, dhamma is here and now,:seeing, hearing, ….., thinking or recognizing name is all dhamma (reality). Let me change back from a parrot into a human form, OK. Best wishes. Num PS. May I also ask for your introduction as well. 11495 From: Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas and realities Thanks Jon, I never understood the stream-entry metaphor. This is very enlightening and exciting! I thought crossing the stream was navigating through the turmoils of life, but this makes me think it is navigating through the turmoils of a dhamma commitment. Larry ----------------------------- SN 55, 5. What is a factor for stream-entry? Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. What is the stream? This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, fright mindfulness, right concentration. What is a stream-enterer? One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan. SN 55, 55-61 Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … to the realization of the fruit of arahantship. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … of arahantship. 11496 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas and realities --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks Jon, > > I never understood the stream-entry metaphor. This is very enlightening > and exciting! I thought crossing the stream was navigating through the > turmoils of life, but this makes me think it is navigating through the > turmoils of a dhamma commitment. > > Larry Very briefly, Larry, in the suttas-- - the stream is a metaphor for the path of one bound for final enlightenment - stream-entry is the first experience of this path, which is the 1st stage of enlightenment; once this stage has been reached the person is bound to attain final enlightenment in due course - one who has entered the stream is a stream-enterer (sotapanna) - one who has entered the stream is also called a 'trainer' (sevaka); one who has yet to enter the stream is called a worldling, while one who has attained to final enlightenment is called 'beyond training' (asevaka). I think the above is fairly generally agreed. What is not so well recognised, but which this sutta clearly confirms, is that the Noble Eightfold Path in the strict sense of that term means the same thing as the stream, ie. the path from initial to final enlightenment. The 8 factors of the Path arise together for the first time at the first stage of enlightenment, and not before. A person in whom the 8 factors arise 'possesses' the path. Hope this helps clarify these references. The allusion is not so much to crossing the stream as to being borne along by the current of the stream (I think - corrections welcome!) Jon > ----------------------------- > SN 55, 5. > What is a factor for stream-entry? > Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing > the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a > factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a > factor for stream-entry. > What is the stream? > This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right > intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, > fright mindfulness, right concentration. > What is a stream-enterer? > One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this > venerable one of such a name and clan. > > SN 55, 55-61 > Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the > obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion > of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … to > the realization of the fruit of arahantship. > What four? > Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful > attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, > when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to > the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the > realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … of arahantship. > 11497 From: jaranoh Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 2:57am Subject: Re: Nina's India Ch 4, no. 3, Robert K's Paticcasamuppada 3 etc. Hi Nina, Robert K, Kom, Num, Jon, Sarah and all, You all don't see me on the list very often. Just wanted to say how much I appreciate all useful discussions and recollections from trips. They are very good reminders not only of the Buddha's teaching, the right understanding and how it develops, but also things that are 'closer' to us such as deaths and suffering mentioned in recent posts. Nina, I enjoy all your posts. Jon and Sarah, thanks for being so active and patient in keeping us together. Robert K, I like how you talked about the death-conciousness in your paticcasamuppada 3. Now, I can see that it is just another citta just like 'my' seeing-conciousness. And I also can see that we are 'dead' at every moment! In stead of feeling frightened, I feel that there NO reasons for us to cling to anything around us even 'our life'. I hope that's what you meant. I have nothing to add to the posts. I just wanted to reiterate my appreciation to all of you. Please keep up good work, and may it condition the right understanding to rise upon you all. Regards, jaran 11498 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: Nina's India Ch 4, no. 3, Robert K's Paticcasamuppada 3 etc. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "jaranoh" wrote: > Hi Nina, Robert K, Kom, Num, Jon, Sarah and all, > > > Robert K, I like how you talked about the death-conciousness in your > paticcasamuppada 3. Now, I can see that it is just another citta just > like 'my' seeing-conciousness. And I also can see that we are 'dead' > at every moment! In stead of feeling frightened, I feel that there NO > reasons for us to cling to anything around us even 'our life'. I hope > that's what you meant. >______________ Dear Jaran, It sure makes me a lot more relaxed when thinking about death. Hope to meet you in bangkok sometime during the next year. robert 11499 From: smallchap Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:49am Subject: Re: samapatti (smallchap) Dear Num, >Let me say hi to you first. My name is Num. Nice meeting you. Nice meeting you too. I am a male chinese Singaporean living in Singapore. I started leaning Theravada Buddhism since I was 26. I have been practising Theravada Buddhist meditation on and off for about 20 years. > No nothing is inconvenient but pretty much I know about my aunt is that she > is my aunt. No she is not a nun, she is a lay person who is very interested > in studying dhamma as well as helping other to understand dhamma. She has > been going to the foundation and listening to A.Sujin for many years. I do > not know exactly what does she do at the foundation. I have never been there, > myself. I have heard that she has been giving some talks over there with > other speakers/lecturers. I started listening to A.Sujin by being a second > hand listener (smoker) b/c I stayed at my aunt's house for a year when I > first moved to Bangkok for my high school. I am now living in the US, so I > sometimes ask her to send me some dhamma books to read. I just started > talking with her about some dhamma not long ago. As far as I can tell, she > knows a whole lot more than me and she is fun to discuss dhamma with. She has > never told me to do any particular practices. As I understand, she kind of > told me to keep listening and reading until I do not want to do or practice > any particular rites !!!! As Christine said, I consider kalayanamitta (good, > benevolent friend) highly. Thank you very much for introducing your aunt. She is indeed a kalayanamitta (now I learn a new Pali word). It is extraordonary for a lay person to devote her whole life to the learning and propagating (do I use the right word?) the Buddha Dhamma. >I have no direct experiences with any of the samapatti. This is completely beyond my scope. Since you have asked, I can tell you from what I have read. So this is completely book knowledge, ok. > > 3 samapatti (means enriching arrival or reaching): > 1.jhanasamapatti: (jhanna means absorption) this is mundane reaching of jhana. > 2.palasamapatti: (pala means result) this is supramundane reaching of pala-citta. > 3.nirodhasamapatti: (nirodha mean ceasing) this is neither mundane nor supramundane. Citta is temporary ceased during this samapatti. This one > needs both jhanasamapatti and at least the 3rd level of the palasamapatti as > its base. > > It's said that once one reaches the stage of samapatti, the citta in 1 or 2 > can keep arising and falling away consecutively without other citta > intervening as long as one wants (or stage of no citta in 3). As far as I can > get from reading, those 3 stages are the ultimate bliss. And thank you for explaining jhanasammapatti, palasammapatti and nirodhasammapatti to me. It is certainly beyond my scope too. Is there now an enlightened being on earth who can attain nirodhasammapatti? Once again, thank you very much. You are my kalayatanamitta too. smallchap 11500 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 9:14am Subject: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Hi Sarah, Thanks for your post. It did shed some new insight for me. However, I still stubbornly maintain that the 4th vipallasa (seeing the foul as the beautiful) does not belong in the exalted company of the first 3 vipallasas/perversions. Why? Even if we take the broader definition and application of subha/asubha extending beyond perceiving/cognizing/viewing foul humans as beautiful to all sensory objects, there are still two problems that I see. 1) this 4th vipallasa to me seems like a very distant derivative of dukkha,anicca,anatta rather than something so primary that it belongs in their company deserving individual recognition. 2) the 4th vipallasa is not well expressed to begin with. Foul vs. beautiful already has connotations of craving and aversion. Seeing beautiful in the non beautiful is a problem, but seeing it as foul is also a problem. If one really were free of erroneous perception/cognition/views, then one would not see something as EITHER foul or beautiful, but rather as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. I don't mean to sound Mahayanist, but I think nondiscrimination, or non-misperception, non-wrong-view would be a more fitting term for a 4th Vipallasa, if a 4th vipallasa is even warranted. Again, I think that anicca,dukkha,anatta more than sufficiently covers the nature of reality. I also have a problem with the chart which tries to make super clean delineations between vipallasa/perversion/distortion at the level of views, perception, and consciousness among the various stages of enlightenment. Obviously, there has to be different magnitudes and granularities of misperceptions of reality among different stages of cultivation, but it seems too clean and implausible that these different magnitudes can be characterized by views, perception, and consciousness as if they were completely independent entities. For example, a view is nothing more than a complex conglomeration of various aggregates of volition, perception, consciousness. How can a view suddenly be purified/unperverted/un-vipallasa'd without the constituent parts not been purified? Makes no sense to me. I see the purification of the vipallasas as a continuous spectrum with no clear delineations or discrete stages that we can definitively pin down. Perception and consciousnes and aggregates in general are not mathematically independent entities that we can treat separately. The chart makes one think that the vipallasa at the level of perception could somehow be purified while the consciousness aggregate is not. Show me a perception that arises apart from consciousness. How can they be treated as independent entities? Perhaps the whole attempt to break down the process of cultivation and enlightenment into discrete clean stages is a bigger vipallasa, kind of like how we take the non-self to be the self. I nominate a 5th vipallasa :-) I'm not trying to be controversial or heretical. I do think there is value is trying to analyze and understand how delusion is attenuated, but I am completely unconvinced that it happens in such a clean discrete way. -fk --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Frank, Num and Christine, > > Num wrote: > > >You mentioned about asuba, I > > > > think this word has a very deep meaning, things > are not that as pretty > > as we > > perceived b/c they are arisen and completely > fallen away. > > > We discussed a little more about vipallasas in > Bangkok and your pertinent > comment reminded me that Frank was asking some time > ago about subha > (beautiful) and asubha (foul) (I don’t think anyone > replied directly, > solet me do a cut and paste job here): > > Frank: > > Now, I happen to be one of the big proponents of > the > > contemplation of impurities, and seeing the body > as > > loathsome. I think it's a big mistake for modern > > westerners to neglect this aspect of practice > because > > it doesn't accord with their more delicate > > sensibilities. However, I don't think that 4th > > vipallasa belongs in the company of the other 3. > > Just as a reminder (Num or Kom, let me know if I > slip up anytime here): > > The vipallasas are of 3 kinds, i.e sanna-vipallasa > (perversion of > perception), citta-vipallasa (perversion of > consciousness) and > ditthi-vipallasa (perversion of view). Of these, the > first two arise now > with every akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness) > while the third > (ditthi vipallasa) arises whenever there is wrong > view and is eradicated > by the sotapanna. > > The 4 perversions themselves (i.e. 4x3 categories) > are a) regarding > impermanent as permanent, b) painful as pleasant, c) > non-self as self, d) > foul as beautiful. (see Kom’s clearer grid and > details at the end of the > post). > > With regard to the last one (foul as beautiful), the > wrong view about it > has been eradicated by the sotapanna, but the sanna > and citta-vipallasas > which cling to the beautiful in the foul are only > eradicated by the > anagami (3rd stage of enlightenment). > > As I understand, sometimes when we read about asubha > and asubha sanna, it > is referring to the parts of the body as in the > cemetery contemplations, > when the foulness of the body is used as object of > samatha > (asubha-kammatthana) as Frank discussed. > > However, when we are discussing the vipallasas, the > meaning is not > confined to parts of the body at all. If we look at > the computer and think > it’s a nice colour or preferable to the colour of > the wall, there is > clinging (with or without wrong view) to beauty in > the foul. Hence, sanna > and citta vipallasa with regard to taking what is > asubha (foul) for subha > (beautiful) is only eradicated by the anagami along > with the attachment to > sense pleasures . > > Frank, I hope this helps. Attachment to sense > objects is so pernicious. > The anagami has no more of this kind of attachment > but still has (very > subtle) attachment for other objects such as bhava > (becoming), kusala > citta or samadhi. The only perversions the anagami > still has are sanna and > citta vipallasa with regard to finding pleasure in > the painful (i.e. > finding sukkha in dukkha) which is only eradicated > by the arahat. (Vism > XX11,68). > > Let me finish with a quote from B.Bodhi’s > translation of ‘Distortions of > Perception, AN, 1V, 61 with useful reminders of how > ‘mentally deranged’ we > are: > > “Those who perceive the changeful to be permanent, > Suffering as bliss, a self in the selfless, > And who see in the foul the mark of beauty - > Such folk resort to distorted views, > mentally deranged, subject to illusions. > Caught by Mara, not free from bonds, > They are still far from the secure state. > Such beings wander through the painful round > And go repeatedly from birth to death. > But when the Buddhas appear in the world, > The makers of light in a mass of darkness, > They reveal this Teaching,the noble Dhamma, > That leads to the end of suffering. > When people with wisdom listen to them, > They at last regain their sanity. > They see the impermanent as impermanent, > And they see suffering just as suffering. > They see the selfless as void of self, > And in the foul they see the foul. > By this acceptance of right view, > They overcome all suffering.” > ********** > > May right view be developed to ‘overcome all > suffering’. > > Sarah > =========================================== > > From Kom’s earlier post: > > As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: > 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) > 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) > 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) > > Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only > with the > 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) > with > micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and > citta > vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some > ariyans > exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in > sobhana > (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu > cetasikkas) cittas. > > The objects of the vipalassa are four: > 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance > 2) Seeing dukha as sukha > 3) Seeing anatta as atta > 4) Seeing asubha as subha > > The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one > becomes > an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are > as > followed: > > ...... ........Impermanence Dukha Anatta > Asubha > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > SagatakamiX X X S C X X X X S C X > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D > > ********** 11501 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:08am Subject: India Ch 4, No. 4 India Ch 4, no. 4 The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna. The right condition is the firm foundation knowledge of the teachings. Thus, study of realities of our life and considering them as they appear in our life. It depends on the individual¹s inclinations to what extent he will study the details about citta, cetasika and rúpa and the different processes of cittas, but a basic knowledge of realities is necessary. Each person is unique, there are no rules with regard to the development of understanding. But at the present time it has to be a development that takes a long time (cira kala bhavana). Acharn Supee Thumthong who teaches Påli in Bangkok remarked that when he studies realities he keeps firmly in mind that the results become apparent only when the conditions are fulfilled. If paññå does not arise to realize the dhammas that appear, it means that one's understanding about the dhammas at tthe paññatti level is not firm enough. He said that if one truly understands this, one will not struggle and strive for results. In other words, one will develop understanding naturally and not force oneself, trying to reach a level one is not yet ready for. Acharn Sujin reminded us that people living at the time of a previous Buddha, the Buddha Dípaòkara, were very patient. We read in the ³Khuddhaka Nikåya², ³Chronicle of the Buddhas² (II A, Account of Sumedha, vs. 71-75) that devas and men rejoiced when they heard that the Buddha Dípankara proclaimed Sumedha to be the future Buddha. We read that they said: If we should fail of the Dispensation (teachings) of this protector of the world, in the distant future we will be face to face with this one. As men, crossing a river but, failing of the ford to the bank opposite, taking a ford lower down cross over the great river, even so, all of us, if we miss (the words of) this Conqueror, in the distant future will be face to face with this one 1. They realized that the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that it takes aeons. The Bodhisatta had to listen to twentyfour Buddhas before he could attain Buddhahood in his last life. We can still study his teachings, but time will come that these disappear. There will be a future Buddha, Ariya Metteyya, and if we do not attain enlightenment in this Buddha era, we may have an opportunity to listen to his teachings. When Acharn Sujin spoke of the gladness and patience of people at the time of Sumedha, I said that I found it difficult to be glad about the prospect of having to wait for many aeons until paññå is developed. But Acharn Sujin reminded us to have courage and gladness while developing right understanding. It is true, when paññå arises there cannot be anxiety at the same time. Paññå can be developed at the present moment and we should not think of the future and how long the road is; what counts is only the present moment. There is no self who can do anything and thus, it is of no use to think of an idea of ³my progress². Listening to the Dhamma, studying it and considering it are the right conditions for satipatthåna. We had Dhamma conversations in different places: apart from the holy sites, we discussed the Dhamma in hotel halls when waiting for the bus, in dining rooms and also in a teashop along the road when the drivers had to rest. I quote from a discussion in a teashop where we sat at a long table, drinking Indian tea. Acharn Sujin said: ³We say, everything is dhamma, but are these just words? How can we understand the characteristics of nåma and rúpa if there is no direct awareness of them? We are talking about seeing and hardness, but there may not be direct awareness of a characteristic, just one at a time. There is seeing now, but no awareness of it. When awareness arises we are beginning to understand seeing right now. There is no need to think about it whether there is awareness of this citta that sees or a past moment of citta that sees, that is thinking. There can be awareness of any reality that sees now. However, we should first study and understand what citta, cetasika and rúpa are, so that there are conditions for the arising of awareness. If someone says that one should just be aware from the very beginning without study of realities, without knowing about the conditions for sati, it is wrong. Seeing sees all the time but there is no development of understanding of seeing, we are only thinking about seeing. Seeing appears, and this means that seeing at that moment is the object of satipatthåna, and only in this way right understanding of it can develop. Paññå begins to grow by understanding the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, and the characteristic of sati. The development of satipatthåna should be very natural, if it is not natural one is on the wrong way. Someone is on the wrong way if he clings to an idea of self who can act in a particular way to make sati arise, instead of just understanding reality. Paññå can understand any reality that has arisen because of its own conditions. We cannot know of what object sati will be aware, this is beyond expectation.² By study, listening and considering the Dhamma there can each time be just a little more understanding and we should be grateful for that. It should be enough for the moment, because, as Acharn Sujin often said, paññå works it way. It is accumulated little by little. ***** Footnote 1. They will be face to face with the Buddha Gotamma, who was previously the Bodhisatta Sumedha. ******* 11502 From: Lee Dillion Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 Nina van Gorkom wrote: In your post, you note the following: > The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to > be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna. and > the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > it takes aeons. Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana takes, nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I am curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process comes from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea come from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? -- Lee Dillion 11503 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 2:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost - Howard/RobEp Dear Christine, I respect your decision. For everyone's mental health, I think it's for the best. Now, please excuse me, I must go reflect on metta. With sincere regards, Robert Ep. "disappointed but not defeated" ================= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Howard and Rob, > > In the interests of staving off the imposition of a three-post-a-day > limit as is being mooted on 'another list', I have decided to > amalgamate my response to you two dear gentlemen. (How would you > survive Rob on three posts a day? How would many of us survive? The > third post would have to be "Sorry ..... .... you > weren't drawn out of the hat today, better luck tomorrow"). > Howard, are you sure all frogs are amphibians - what about tree- > frogs? And desert frogs? > Rob - I'm not so sure about your suggestion of a crocodile as an > alternative....all very well for you, but I'm the one who is supposed > to get on the lily-pad with him! And is a crocodile an amphibian? I > DO like "the swamp of samsara" though, nearly as memorable as MikeB > and his 'drowning mouse in a hurricane'...(what was it doing out of a > pantry or a linen cupboard and in that weather?) > I've actually turned off the idea of promoting Howards' Speaking > Tour - he seems to be developing Delusions of Grandeur > about "collecting many followers", and Rob....such a Mercenary > Spirit - percentages and royalties ....I'll have to find two > other role models, now that I've found out about your feet of > clay...... > I absolutely, positively refuse to enter into any further > correspondence on any of the above, because I've forgotten how it all > started.... :-) :-) > > Cheers, > Chris > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Hi, Christine - > > > > > > In a message dated 2/24/02 3:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > It first appeared in a sub-, sub-, sub-commentary by an > arahant who > > > had visited the naga realm. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Didn't realize they had frogs there. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 11504 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 3:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] automatic?Rob.E Dear Rob K., Wonderful post, Rob, and I thank you. Without going into the details, I really appreciated all that you laid out here. I think it's very helpful. I will say more after I have a chance to absorb what you've writting and see if I have anything worthwhile to add. But I thought it was a remarkably clear post. Beyond that, I would only say that I was intrigued by the admonition in the sutta to smear your floor with mud to keep it clean. Best, Robert Ep. =========== --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Robert K, > I assume you would think that one's > 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also > be > something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then > really, it > is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better > or > worse? > Rob E. > _______________ > > Dear Rob. E., > This is a great question; it needs the whole of the Patthana to explain it > so I just give some hints. Your comment about determinism/freewill to Jon > is the question that haunts all aspects of philosophy and always will. > Even the Chrsitians used to argue it; cf. the debates betwen Erasmus and > Luther that Dan pointed out to me.. > > To some extent I think trying to go onto automatic or something because > one knows that theoretically there is no-self is like talking about > letting go: only words. > > As you know the crucial factor in the eight fold path is samma-ditthi, > right view; and as you also know this is understanding that comprehends > the real nature of dhammas that arise at the 6doors. This type of insight > depends most crucially on hearing correct Dhamma from the Buddha or his > disciples and reflecting in a correct and profound way on it. There are > other factors listed such as discussion on subtle points which are said to > assist insight. Now these factors all depend to some degree on conditions > that arise now, however they are also conditioned partly by conditions > from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is to some extent a matter of > vipaka conditioned by kamma a past factor. How fast and how deep one > understands what one hears is largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata > (merit done in the past). If one has studied Dhamma for some time there > should be growing appreciation that hearing and considering it leads to > more understanding and detachment: This then conditions effort to hear > more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions arising > in the present, but built on past ones. > Nevertheless, it doesn't always work that way; why does one person go so > fast, so far and another doesn't. Venerable Sunnakhata (sp?) was the > Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained > Jhana, I think even to the degree of having special powers of hearing. But > he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed > ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs > (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The > commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a > ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't > overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in > conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had > volitional control over what he did but what he couldn't see was that > ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices; such a hard > delusion to see through. > > In fact no one can stop volition because it is a conditioned dhamma. But > when volition, along with other dhammas, is properly understood (a long > process) there is detachment from taking volition for self. > Sometimes because the results from this profound path are not quickly > apparent one might lose confidence and look for something faster. > However, I think other ways are dependent on conditions too. And if those > conditions should be interrupted one might find that while they thought > they were getting to the disease they were really only applying a > palliative to the symptoms. > > I do believe this rather radical way of seeing into the anattaness of all > dhammas gradually gives a type of detachment that isn't shaken by > anything. One doesn't expect any dhamma to give satisfaction because they > are inherently unstable and every change, whether for better or worse, > simply confirms this - at the micro and macro level. There has to be study > directly of dhammas for any real insight - but, and I think this is what > Jon is showing, this type of study is only real if it is done without > desire. It goes against our natural instincts but the type of effort > needed is something more profound than mere trying or watching. I think > people with a zen background like you and Ken O get this point fairly > readily. > > While you are reading there may be a great deal of effort arising along > with samadhi- concentration - that help any understanding that is > arising.(and if my writing is too obtuse then effort and samadhi may still > arise but ....) These factors are conditioned by past paccaya > (conditions), some of them very recent, and some I am sure from long ago > when there was the development of wisdom in other lives. However , those > past conditions aren't enough by themselves to invoke more insight and so > other factors , especially hearing Dhamma, from the present are needed. > > Also it is not that being in quiet places isn't helpful. In fact it can > be very useful to be secluded and alone where there is time to devote > oneself to contemplation. But this is a minor factor and not comparable to > the main one of hearing Dhamma because without that ones 'contemplation' > will be distorted by view. > There are other factors helpful to wisdom also. Here is something from the > Satipatthana sutta commentary: > "Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor(wisdom): > Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis > (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting > evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the > ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference > of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), > sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the > development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental > objects. > > Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of > the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling > faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, > the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for > explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas > with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. > > Purification of the basis is the cleaning of the personal basis: the body, > and of the impersonal basis: clothes and dwelling place. The flame of a > lamp is unclear when its wick, oil and container are dirty; the wick > splutters, flickers; but the flame of a lamp that has a clean wick, oil > and container is clear and the wick does not spit; it burns smoothly. So > it is with knowledge. Knowing that arises out of the mind and mental > qualities which are in dirty external and internal surroundings is apt to > be impure, too, but the knowledge that arises under clean conditions is > apt to be pure. In this way cleanliness leads to the growth of this > enlightenment factor which comprises knowledge. > > Personal cleanliness is impaired by the excessive length of hair of the > head, nails, hair of the body, by the excess of humours, and by the dirt > of perspiration; cleanliness of impersonal or external things is impaired > when robes are worn out, dirty and smelly, and when the house where one > lives is dirty, soiled and untidy. So personal cleanliness should be > secured by shaving, hair-cutting, nail-paring, the use of pectoral emetics > and of purgatives which make the body light, and by shampooing, bathing > and doing other necessary things, at the proper time. In similar way > external cleanliness should be brought about by darning, washing and > dyeing one's robes, and by smearing the floor of one's house with clay and > the like to smoothen and clean it, and by doing other necessary things to > keep the house clean and tidy. "endquote > robert > > > 11505 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:33pm Subject: correction automatic?Rob.E --- Thanks Rob. I just tried to find the part in the commentary where it says Sunnakhata lived 500 consecutive lives as dog duty ascetic and can't find it. I think I made a mistake and he had many lives as a dog duty ascetic but NOT consecutive. robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Rob K., > Wonderful post, Rob, and I thank you. > > Without going into the details, I really appreciated all that you laid out here. > I think it's very helpful. I will say more after I have a chance to absorb what > you've writting and see if I have anything worthwhile to add. But I thought it > was a remarkably clear post. > > Beyond that, I would only say that I was intrigued by the admonition in the sutta > to smear your floor with mud to keep it clean. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > =========== > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Robert K, > > I assume you would think that one's > > 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also > > be > > something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then > > really, it > > is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better > > or > > worse? > > Rob E. > > _______________ > > > > Dear Rob. E., > > This is a great question; it needs the whole of the Patthana to explain it > > so I just give some hints. Your comment about determinism/freewill to Jon > > is the question that haunts all aspects of philosophy and always will. > > Even the Chrsitians used to argue it; cf. the debates betwen Erasmus and > > Luther that Dan pointed out to me.. > > > > To some extent I think trying to go onto automatic or something because > > one knows that theoretically there is no-self is like talking about > > letting go: only words. > > > > As you know the crucial factor in the eight fold path is samma- ditthi, > > right view; and as you also know this is understanding that comprehends > > the real nature of dhammas that arise at the 6doors. This type of insight > > depends most crucially on hearing correct Dhamma from the Buddha or his > > disciples and reflecting in a correct and profound way on it. There are > > other factors listed such as discussion on subtle points which are said to > > assist insight. Now these factors all depend to some degree on conditions > > that arise now, however they are also conditioned partly by conditions > > from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is to some extent a matter of > > vipaka conditioned by kamma a past factor. How fast and how deep one > > understands what one hears is largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata > > (merit done in the past). If one has studied Dhamma for some time there > > should be growing appreciation that hearing and considering it leads to > > more understanding and detachment: This then conditions effort to hear > > more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions arising > > in the present, but built on past ones. > > Nevertheless, it doesn't always work that way; why does one person go so > > fast, so far and another doesn't. Venerable Sunnakhata (sp?) was the > > Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained > > Jhana, I think even to the degree of having special powers of hearing. But > > he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed > > ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs > > (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The > > commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a > > ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't > > overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in > > conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had > > volitional control over what he did but what he couldn't see was that > > ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices; such a hard > > delusion to see through. > > > > In fact no one can stop volition because it is a conditioned dhamma. But > > when volition, along with other dhammas, is properly understood (a long > > process) there is detachment from taking volition for self. > > Sometimes because the results from this profound path are not quickly > > apparent one might lose confidence and look for something faster. > > However, I think other ways are dependent on conditions too. And if those > > conditions should be interrupted one might find that while they thought > > they were getting to the disease they were really only applying a > > palliative to the symptoms. > > > > I do believe this rather radical way of seeing into the anattaness of all > > dhammas gradually gives a type of detachment that isn't shaken by > > anything. One doesn't expect any dhamma to give satisfaction because they > > are inherently unstable and every change, whether for better or worse, > > simply confirms this - at the micro and macro level. There has to be study > > directly of dhammas for any real insight - but, and I think this is what > > Jon is showing, this type of study is only real if it is done without > > desire. It goes against our natural instincts but the type of effort > > needed is something more profound than mere trying or watching. I think > > people with a zen background like you and Ken O get this point fairly > > readily. > > > > While you are reading there may be a great deal of effort arising along > > with samadhi- concentration - that help any understanding that is > > arising.(and if my writing is too obtuse then effort and samadhi may still > > arise but ....) These factors are conditioned by past paccaya > > (conditions), some of them very recent, and some I am sure from long ago > > when there was the development of wisdom in other lives. However , those > > past conditions aren't enough by themselves to invoke more insight and so > > other factors , especially hearing Dhamma, from the present are needed. > > > > Also it is not that being in quiet places isn't helpful. In fact it can > > be very useful to be secluded and alone where there is time to devote > > oneself to contemplation. But this is a minor factor and not comparable to > > the main one of hearing Dhamma because without that ones 'contemplation' > > will be distorted by view. > > There are other factors helpful to wisdom also. Here is something from the > > Satipatthana sutta commentary: > > "Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor (wisdom): > > Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis > > (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting > > evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the > > ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference > > of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), > > sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the > > development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental > > objects. > > > > Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of > > the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling > > faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, > > the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for > > explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas > > with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. > > > > Purification of the basis is the cleaning of the personal basis: the body, > > and of the impersonal basis: clothes and dwelling place. The flame of a > > lamp is unclear when its wick, oil and container are dirty; the wick > > splutters, flickers; but the flame of a lamp that has a clean wick, oil > > and container is clear and the wick does not spit; it burns smoothly. So > > it is with knowledge. Knowing that arises out of the mind and mental > > qualities which are in dirty external and internal surroundings is apt to > > be impure, too, but the knowledge that arises under clean conditions is > > apt to be pure. In this way cleanliness leads to the growth of this > > enlightenment factor which comprises knowledge. > > > > Personal cleanliness is impaired by the excessive length of hair of the > > head, nails, hair of the body, by the excess of humours, and by the dirt > > of perspiration; cleanliness of impersonal or external things is impaired > > when robes are worn out, dirty and smelly, and when the house where one > > lives is dirty, soiled and untidy. So personal cleanliness should be > > secured by shaving, hair-cutting, nail-paring, the use of pectoral emetics > > and of purgatives which make the body light, and by shampooing, bathing > > and doing other necessary things, at the proper time. In similar way > > external cleanliness should be brought about by darning, washing and > > dyeing one's robes, and by smearing the floor of one's house with clay and > > the like to smoothen and clean it, and by doing other necessary things to > > keep the house clean and tidy. "endquote > > robert 11506 From: Victor Yu Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:49pm Subject: Kamma Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.145 Kamma Sutta Action Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak. "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. "And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma. "And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- See also: "Kamma & the Ending of Kamma" from the book Wings to Awakening. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html Udana III.1 Kamma Sutta Action Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain monk was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. The Blessed One saw him sitting not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: For the monk who has left all kamma behind, shaking off the dust of the past, steady, without longing, Such*: there's no point in telling anyone else. (*tadi) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-01.html 11507 From: michael newton Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:13:54 +0100 >Hello!Nina; Thank you,for clarifying what happened to Alan(phra Dammadaro)still very trajic,I believe that Alan,is in the beyond,next world,in a good situation,because he was true to the teachings and was a very helpful and giving person.I will forward your email to Ven.Dhammika.Tahnk you.ANICCA,DHUKKHA,ANATTA, MAY ALL BEINGS BE HAPPY.MICHAEL >op 24-02-2002 02:41 schreef michael newton op newtonmichael@h...: > >.Dhammika told me in his > > email,last week,that > > after Dhammadaro left the robes,he got involved with I believe refugees >near > > Laotian border and was > > travelling in a jeep with his mother I believe,and it overturned,both >dieing > > instantly,is this correct,or > > am I wrong-feel saddened by this-but Phra Dhammadaro,was one of the most > > inspiring monks,that > > opened my eyes to many things. > >Dear Michael, the story is a bit different. He worked for some time for the >refugees. His mother and her friend came over for a vacation, and they went >with A. Sujin to Ayuthya, to the home of a friend's mother. There Alan >(former Phra Dh) listened intently and very relaxed to a Dhamma talk, and >afterwards he and his mother went in a car with two friends, one of them on >the wheel, but A. Sujin was not with them. Another car coming from the >opposite direction went on the wrong side of the road and collided with >them. He and his mother died. Jon and Sarah came over for the cremation and >Jon gave the eulogy. (I did not see the text, is it available, Jon?)His >ashes were taken into a boat and put into the river together with a >portrait >of him. I understand that you still find this difficult to take, you only >heard it recently. Now I quote something Sarah wrote to Christine because >of >the tragedy of her daughter's friends: > > We may think that your friends suffered in a horrific > > way, but in Bangkok we discussed how really at any time, including the >end > > of life, there are just different experiences and feelings as there are > > now. We don’t even know that your friends experienced any particular > > unpleasantness, as events may have happened too fast. We would say, from >a > > Buddhist point of view, that life will be continuing in one form or >other > > just like it is for us now. end quote. > >A. Sujin said, the five khandhas go on and on in a next life, we do not >know >on which plane it is. Surely, all his accumulated understanding is not >lost, >it will somehow bring a good result. And even now, think of all the people >he has helped to have more understanding and can develop understanding now. >Also this goes on and on. >I also wrote a letter about him, it may appear later on on a web. The last >time Lodewijk and I saw him was in Rathbury where he went with A. Sujin to >explain Dhamma to a group. He often went with her to the provinces. At >lunch >there we discussed visible object and thinking of a concept. He said, when >you look at the floor you see what is visible but you do not pay attention >to a special thing. When you are looking for a pin you notice that there is >a pin lying there, you pay attention to a concept, and that is different >from just seeing visible object. We took leave and then he was smiling very >gently while waving and waving to us. That was the last time. Best wishes >from Nina. > > > > > > 11508 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] who is the right person? Dear Nina, Great note, and very personalized for my thoughts and inquiries. It is much appreciated. I happen to have been ruminating about this subject myself today, and so I feel that we are slightly coordinated at the moment, which is nice [and feeds my fantasies about the synchronous nature of the universe]. What sometimes seems a bit stark to me in Jon's formulation of how far we are from being able to trust our instincts or feelings about what is kusala or akusala, is that I didn't have a strong sense of the gradual building up of that capability which your post addresses. Of course, there is also something very positive in Jon's formulation, is that it forces one to confront the unyielding reality that we are not as capable as our ego-sense would glibly like to assert. That's a hard one for me, and I've been taking stock of how far there is to go on the path. There's something positive about that too: it explains a lot. When recurrent akusala sufferings keep arising even after they've been intellectually understood and 'worked on' there's a tendency to think: well, why haven't these things gone away by now? But when you understand how long and hard the path is, then it's easier to take a deep breath and just pay attention to this phase of the journey, even if it's kindergarten. That's just the way it is! Good for me to acknowledge insights when they pop up, but also very important to take stock and have some realistic understanding of how far away real understanding is. But then something else 'good' happens in doing that: I've gotten a kind of glimpse of how 'real' discernment might develop, and your description is very supportive in this understanding. It is not that one's understanding and intuition are unimportant. It is that we have to move carefully and not take for granted that our perceptions are real. We have to inspect everything and be open to finding new things in it. What you say about the pleasant feeling that is kusala vs. the pleasant feeling that is akusala and gradually coming to be able to tell the difference, is very hopeful. It means we actually can look for ourselves and 'taste' those different flavors until we get a more discriminating tongue. And one day we will be able to say with certainty: 'Well that tastes good, but I can tell it's unhealthy'. Or: 'That tastes horrible, but I can tell it's medicine.' At least if that capability is potentially there, then there's every reason to be hopeful and keep allowing things to gradually fall into place. What you say about how you assess the teachings of both, I presume, the suttas, and the 'spiritual friend' is also very good. You have to go to the trouble of remembering what they've actually said, and then go compare that to your experience, one thing at a time, step by step. Then you can actually say with certainty at some point: 'Well, she told me all of these things, and an awful lot of them checked out.' Then you can settle in and keep receiving the teachings. I now understand what Jon was trying to say, and didn't quite pick up through my own conceptual smoke: that these faculties and capabilities can be developed, but that we should be very cautious before assuming at each step and at each level, that what we get on our radar screen is the true reflection of what's taking place. And that's a very good admonition. Somewhere the Buddha said that the simple virtue of patience was the most difficult and most important of the virtues. It seems true that taking the time to look and understand slowly and thoroughly is hard, but very fruitful. And having the perserverence to settle in for a journey that is very long but that has a certainty of success if followed steadily, is hard, but well worth it. Here's to developing those capabilities. Thank you very much for your note! Best, Robert Ep. ========================= --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 24-02-2002 06:43 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > > > Your description of Varanasi brought back fond memories of the craziness > > there. > There were also a few goats on the bus. > > > > Well, thanks for activating my 'India File' in my brain. > > Dear Rob Ep, I had a good laugh about your description. But now some more > serious matter. You had an interesting discussion with Jon about how we can > know who is the right person who can explain the Dhamma in the right way. (I > threw away the post, but I kept it in memory, perhaps this is not literal > what you wrote?) These are questions that naturally come up. > There is no clearcut answer, you can only find out for yourself, check > yourself: is it true that lobha is like this, that dosa is like that? Is > this true that this is kusala, that pleasant feeling with kusala is > different from pleasant feeling with lobha? I do not quote now the > Kesaputtiya sutta (people call it Kalama sutta, this is not right, it was > spoken to the Kalamas of Kesaputta). > A. Sujin herself had a teacher who taught her Abhidhamma, A. Neb. But she > found out herself that satipatthana should be developed naturally in daily > life: no forcing, no trying, not focussing on a specific reality. > As for me, I listened in India to all her explanations about the underlying > idea of self, when listening to Dhamma, when understanding, when thinking, > and about the clinging to the importance of self, conceit. I found that I > could check these things for myself. When we listen to tapes, we hear this > again and again, but what formerly was heard but not completely understood > makes much more sense now. I think Kom and others will have the same > experience. It takes time, what we hear has to sink in. We may here many > times: there is the self who wishes to develop satipatthana, the self who > wishes to listen to the Dhamma, but we may not have considered this before. > We can verify for ourselves: does it make sense to develop awareness > naturally, in daily life? There is no need to convince others, because > everyone can only find out for himself. These are just a few thoughts that > came up after reading your post. > Best wishes from Nina. 11509 From: Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas and realities Jon wrote in reference to a comment on stream-entry: "The allusion is not so much to crossing the stream as to being borne along by the current of the stream" -------------- I guess is depends on where you want to go, the other shore or the ocean. Larry 11510 From: Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:44pm Subject: sati Greetings dsg, Is the sati that recognizes not-self just a matter of objectivity? Larry 11511 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is unnecessary, I wonder what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? Best, Robert Ep. ====================== --- Victor Yu wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.145 > Kamma Sutta > Action > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > "Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the > path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close > attention. I will speak. > "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, > fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The > tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & > willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. > > "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with > speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. > > "And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes > from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is > called the cessation of kamma. > > "And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just > this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right > action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right > concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation > of kamma. > > "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and > the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher > should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for > them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't > later fall into regret. This is our message to you." > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > See also: "Kamma & the Ending of Kamma" from the book Wings to Awakening. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html > > > > > > Udana III.1 > Kamma Sutta > Action > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, > in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain monk > was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held > erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old > kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. The Blessed One saw him sitting > not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, > piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, > without suffering. > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > > For the monk who has left > all kamma > behind, > shaking off the dust of the past, > steady, without longing, > Such*: > there's no point in telling > anyone else. > (*tadi) 11512 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 9:55pm Subject: RE: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Dear Frank, This sutta might be relevant to the question of how one thing may be completely eradicated, but the others are not (even though they all co-arise). I don't think there are disputes that all the things must be attenuated when panna arises: it is just that not all of them are eradicated permanently at the same time. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html Regarding to the 4 vipalassa at the same levels, there appear to be some suttas (or suttas with parallel structure) in SN [can't find them at the moment]. I remember them as being the Buddha's words. Even if we don't understand why the categorization, I think we should be study the texts carefully before making a decision that one shouldn't be in the same group as the other. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: frank kuan [mailto:fcckuan@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:14 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Cc: nsbb > Subject: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] > Beauty and the Beast > > > 2) the 4th vipallasa is not well expressed to begin > with. Foul vs. beautiful already has connotations of > craving and aversion. Seeing beautiful in the non > beautiful is a problem, but seeing it as foul is also > a problem. If one really were free of erroneous > perception/cognition/views, then one would not see > something as EITHER foul or beautiful, but rather as > impermanent, dukkha, anatta. I don't mean to sound > Mahayanist, but I think nondiscrimination, or > non-misperception, non-wrong-view would be a more > fitting term for a 4th Vipallasa, if a 4th vipallasa > is even warranted. Again, I think that > anicca,dukkha,anatta more than sufficiently covers the > nature of reality. > I also have a problem with the chart which tries to > make super clean delineations between > vipallasa/perversion/distortion at the level of views, > perception, and consciousness among the various stages > of enlightenment. Obviously, there has to be different > magnitudes and granularities of misperceptions of > reality among different stages of cultivation, but it > seems too clean and implausible that these different > magnitudes can be characterized by views, perception, > and consciousness as if they were completely > independent entities. For example, a view is nothing > more than a complex conglomeration of various > aggregates of volition, perception, consciousness. How > can a view suddenly be > purified/unperverted/un-vipallasa'd without the > constituent parts not been purified? Makes no sense to > me. I see the purification of the vipallasas as a > continuous spectrum with no clear delineations or > discrete stages that we can definitively pin down. > Perception and consciousnes and aggregates in general > are not mathematically independent entities that we > can treat separately. The chart makes one think that > the vipallasa at the level of perception could somehow > be purified while the consciousness aggregate is not. > Show me a perception that arises apart from > consciousness. How can they be treated as independent > entities? 11513 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] automatic?Rob.E Dear Robert E, > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > [mailto:robertkirkpatrick@r...] > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 4:04 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com; > dhammastudy@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] automatic?Rob.E > > > Dear Robert K, > I assume you would think that one's > 'not turning away' from anything based on greater > understanding would also > be > something that happens non-volitionally based on > conditions? So then > really, it > is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do > to influence it for better > or > worse? > Rob E. > _______________ > I also would like to get my 2 cents into this discussion (inspired by the Robert K's comprehensive answer). The 4 factors of Sotapanna (as mentioned by Jon in some other posts) are being associated with a wise person, listen to the correct dhamma from the wise person, consider wisely the dhamma already heard, and practice [study the dhamma?] the dhamma appropriate to the dhammas. OK. I think it is "easy" for most of us to understand how the first two work. How about the last two? How does one go about considering wisely the dhamma already heard and how does one practice? Some people may come up with such a practice: since I need to consider wisely the dhamma, then I will make efforts to put things into dhamma perspectives to fulfil this factor. Likewise, since I need to practice, then I need to do special things, or to be at a special place, or in a special time, or with special situations, or make efforts to attend to (to watch) the dhamma that is arising. Guess what? Even if we don't make conscious (conventional) efforts to consider the dhamma as it applies to daily life, the consideration is bound to happen if we spend enough time trying to understand the dhamma (while hearing and when you while not hearing). Considering the dhamma situation is somewhat like thinking about work situation for me. When I spend enough time on either, thinking about either is bound to happen, even when I don't make efforts for it to happen (or even when I don't want it to happen). When you read DSG posts, or write to DSG, you are already considering the dhammas. So, some of these considerations will be wise, some wouldn't be, but they happen naturally and effortlessly (conventional). There would be less of a self (tanha, mana, and dithi), when considering wisely, applying oneself to doing certain tasks believing that one will get specific results because of that application. One understands that when the intricate conditions completely culminates, then the dhamma arises. One understands that one cannot control ANY of the condition as each condition is complexly conditioned by more than a few other dhammas. Pratice (pati-pati, well-rounded comprehension of the dhamma) works in similar ways. No conventional effort is required. When there is enough of other levels of panna, then panna at the pati-pati level rises effortlessly, without the self (tanha, mana, and dithi) directing one to do things to achieve specific results. I really appreciated Num's post about what his aunt told him recently, that he should continue studying the texts, and considering (hopefully wisely!) the dhamma until he has no more inclination to do special (big or small) things to practice. This is so relevant to me: she might as well tell me this directly! Tanha, mana, dithi (the self) by the way, is pa-panca dhammas, dhammas that hinder (slow) wisdom development. kom 11514 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Re: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Dear Frank, As usual, I’m impressed by your careful consideration of topics that are not easy to understand and with your challenging comments and questions. I think that the classification of vipallasas helps us to understand (in theory of course) when different kilesa (defilements) are eradicated. This doesn’t mean there should be any focus on particular kilesa or any idea of ‘order’ in terms of developing awareness. Perhaps we can say that attachment to (and wrong view about) sense objects is so great, that any reminders about the ‘foul’ can be helpful. Nina writes in her Book on Rupas: http://www.dhammastudy.com/Rupas1.html “The element of earth appears as hardness or softness, the element of fire as heat or cold and the element of wind as motion or pressure. Time and again rupas such as hardness or heat impinge on the bodysense but we are forgetful of what things really are. We let ourselves be deceived by the outer appearance of things. The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 100) states that the four Great Elements are “deceivers”: 'And just as the great creatures known as female spirits (yakkhini) conceal their own fearfulness with a pleasing colour, shape and gesture to deceive beings, so too, these elements conceal each their own characteristics and function classed as hardness, etc., by means of a pleasing skin colour of women’s and men’s bodies, etc., and pleasing shapes of limbs and pleasing gestures of fingers, toes and eyebrows, and they deceive simple people by concealing their own functions and characteristics beginning with hardness and do not allow their individual essences to be seen....' The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 98) states that the four Great Elements are like the great creatures of a magician who “turns water that is not crystal into crystal, and turns a clod that is not gold into gold....” We are attached to crystal and gold, we are deceived by the outward appearance of things. There is no crystal or gold in the ultimate sense, only rupas which arise and then fall away. " Frank, you ask: >How can a view suddenly be > purified/unperverted/un-vipallasa'd without the > constituent parts not been purified? Makes no sense to > me. I think the answer is that there can be ignorance without wrong view such as at this moment. There may be ignorance of the rupas appearing now, but not necessarily any wrong view that they are self or permanent at this moment. So wrong views (for example of rupas being self or being inherently satisfactory or beautiful) are all eradicated by the sotapanna, while at the same time, the clinging to ‘satisfactoriness’, or ‘beautiful’ remains. Dicussing the vipallasas can help us to understand the distinctions. In the same way, while the anagami has eradicated the ‘seeing the foul in the beautiful’ and all attachment to sense pleasures, other subtle attachments remain. There may still be clinging to life or to jhana experience or to other wholesome states. We can understand how very pervasive and pernicious attachment is. > The chart makes one think that > the vipallasa at the level of perception could somehow > be purified while the consciousness aggregate is not. > Show me a perception that arises apart from > consciousness. How can they be treated as independent > entities? No, I agree, they are not independent at all. When there is citta vipallasa, there must be sanna vipallasa too.The sotapanna has eradicated all ditthi vipallasa and also sanna and citta vipallasas with regard to self and permanence. I recently quoted passages from B.Bodhi's translation of the the Mulapariya Sutta and commentaries which discusses the vipallasas with helpful examples too. > Perhaps the whole attempt to break down the process > of cultivation and enlightenment into discrete clean > stages is a bigger vipallasa, kind of like how we take > the non-self to be the self. I nominate a 5th > vipallasa :-) I'm not trying to be controversial or > heretical. I do think there is value is trying to > analyze and understand how delusion is attenuated, but > I am completely unconvinced that it happens in such a > clean discrete way. I think that here we come to the meaning of cessation, nibbana and the 8fold path. we know that at different stages of enlightenment, different kilesa are eradicated for good. Finally, Frank, I’m not meaning to avoid answering your other points, but I can’t resist adding these verses from the Vism (ch X1) section on ‘Perception of Repulsiveness in Nutriment’23, knowing that you’ll appreciate the earthy reminders;-): “..Hence the Ancients said: ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- Go in all by a single door, But by nine doors come oozing out. ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- Men like to eat in company, But to excrete in secrecy. ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- These a man eats with high delight, And then excretes with dumb disgust. ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- A single night will be enough To bring them to putridity’. ********* Apologies to those who haven’t eaten yet;-) Frank, I’m glad to see (but haven’t read yet) that Kom has also replied on this thread. Pls let us know which of your many good, tricky points have not been answered yet. Sarah ============================ 11515 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow Dear Rob K, --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear sarah, > Actually my reply was rather abrupt; we're marking exams at he moment > and I slip out for quick breaks. A couple of people have asked me to > turn the series into an article which I may do if I ever have time > and in that case I will reword the part you mentioned or add a > footnote. > thanks Never a prob.....I'll look f/w to reading the article in due course too. When I was college teaching, there were two areas that used to really test my patience. One was exam marking and the other was meetings.... Your long break will come in no time... Sarah =========== 11516 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost - Howard/RobEp Dear Chris, (Howard and Rob Ep), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Howard and Rob, > > In the interests of staving off the imposition of a three-post-a-day > limit .. Maybe for any (amphibian?) friends who're able to jump so simply and fearlessly from the 'A's' of a Pali text to a lily pad and then to start zapping enlightenment, we should consider imposing a MINIMUM three-post-a-day limit..... Look forward to hearing all your secret remedies and expecially to the review of the 'B's' and 'C's', ... Sarah ===================== 11517 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Dear Mike B, Many thanks for all your fascinating background details. we look forward to any sharing from all your experiences and study. You raise a lot of interesting points, but I'll just skip to the end for now if you don't mind: --- mikebrotherto wrote: > > I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of mindful > presence. Although, I must admit, with utmost respect to all, that I > wonder when some of you find the time to actually be still and let it > be. Like my mama used to say 'you keep picking at that scab it's never > going to heal'. This is quite amusing and I'm not sure how (on my behalf, let alone anyone else's;-)) to answer the question. Perhaps I should ask what it means to 'be still' and 'let it be' first..... Can we determine the 'being still' by the 'activity', I question? > Nina, especially, your work has been such an influence in creating > appropriate conditions for mindfulness. I am learning Pali by studying > your teaching and can follow you guys most of the time. May all y'all > realize nibbana in this lifetime. I know Nina will be glad to hear your comments. Sometimes I have trouble following 'us guys', so I may be asking you for the odd explanation too;-) Thanks for joining us and telling us more about yourself too (and for the nibbana good wishes;-)) Sarah p.s hope you've just had or are having a good retreat ========================================= 11518 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 - and welcome Lee Dear Lee, I'll also look forward to Nina's or anyone else's reply to you on the useful questions you've raised below. (Of course, when re read the Jatakas, for example, we read about the many, many lives the arahats developed noble qualities. For example, we hear that Sariputta became a sotapanna after hearing the first two lines of a stanza spoken by Assaji, but forget about all the previous lives. Sariputta is of course identified with different characters in dozens of Jatakas.) Anyway, this is just an excuse to also welcome you to dsg. I'll look forward to more of your helpful comments and questions. If you would care to follow Mike B's good example and share anything else about yourself or interest in dhamma, we'd be glad to hear. Best wishes, Sarah ========== --- Lee Dillion wrote: > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > In your post, you note the following: > > > The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there > have to > > be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of > satipatthåna. > > and > > > the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > > it takes aeons. > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana > takes, > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I > am > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process > comes > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea > come > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? > > -- > Lee Dillion 11519 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of nibbana -Rob Ep Dear Rob Ep, Actually I think the discussion about nibbana and nirodha (cessation) is also very relevant to the other discussions on the 3 rounds and the vipallasas, so I’m going to at this point hand over to the texts I was just reading: --- Robert Epstein wrote: > >... Saying that 'it' is > deathless > makes it sound like it has an independent existence in some other realm > that we > are not a part of, but which we glimpse. If this is the case, it leaves > me even > more confused.........> I’d like to quote from the Sammohavinodani, (Dispeller of Delusion, an Abhidhamma commentary), classification of the Truths,532: ********** "Asesaviraaganirodho (“fading away without remainder and cesation”) and so on are all merely synonyms for nibbana. For on coming to nibbana, craving fades away without remainder and ceases, therefore it is called “the fading away without remainder” and cessation of that same craving. And on coming to nibbana, craving is given up, relinquished, let go of, is not adhered to, therefore nibbana is called caago pa.tinissaggo mutti anaalayo (“giving up, relinquishment, letting go, non-adherence”). 'For nibbana is only one. But the names for it are merely so many synonyms for nibbana as names which are all the opposite of the names of formed things, that is to say, fading away without remainder and cessation, giving up, relinquishment, letting go, non-adherence, destruction of greed, destruction of hate, destruction of delusion, destruction of craving, non-arising, non-process, the signless, the desireless, the effortless, non-rebirth, non-appearance, no-destiny, the unborn, the unageing, the unaliling, the deathless, the sorrowless, non-lamentation, non-woe, the undefiled, and so on. 'Now when craving is cut off by the path and has also reached non-occurrence on coming to nibbana, in order to show its absence in those same bases where its arising had been shown he said saa kho pan’esaa (“but this”) and so on. 'Herein, just as a man, on seeing a bitter gourd creeper growing in a fiels, would seek for its root, starting from the tip, and would cut it off, and it would gradually wither and come to non-occurrence, and after that it might be said that the bitter gourd had been made to cease and was abandoned in that field, so indeed like the bitter gourd in the field is craving in the eye, etc. On having its root cut by the Noble Path it would go to non-occurrence on coming to Nibbana. and being thus gone, like the bitter gourd in the field, it would not reappear in those bases..........................Hence, showing its cessation just there , he said...”the eye is dear and agreeable in the world; it is here that that craving is abandoned when it is so, ceases when it does so”...." ********** By understanding the ‘formed’ and the attachment to the formed, slowly the panna will develop which eventually realizes the ‘unformed’ and craving is uprooted. A little later we read more about the 8fold Path factors: ********** "(542). Accordingly right view is taught first among these eight states by the Blessed One because of its great helpfulness to the meditator (yogin) who is practising for the attainment of nibbana. For this is called the light of understanding and the weapon of understanding. Therefore by means of this Right View (which is) called in the prior stage insight knowledge, by destroying the darkness of ignorance and slaying the robbers which are the defilements, the meditator reaches nibbana in safety. .." ********** Rob, you were also asking in another post about how we might know if someone is speaking the true dhamma if we cannot trust our own ‘views’ or ‘intuition’. Let me quote from “Introduction to Buddhist Scriptures’ by Nina available on: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Nina writes: ********** "In the "Discourse on the Sixfold Cleansing"(Middle Length Sayings III, 112) the Buddha speaks about a monk who declares "profound knowledge", who states that he has reached the end of birth, thus, that he is an arahat. The Buddha said that he might be questioned about his understanding so that one knows whether he speaks the truth. In this sutta we read about all realities appearing through the six doors which are the objects of right understanding, no matter whether someone is a beginner on the Path or an arahat. 'We read that the Buddha said to the monks that one may ask the monk who states that he is an arahat the following question: "Your reverence, these four modes of statement have been rightly pointed out by that Lord who knows and sees, perfected one, fully Self-Awakened One. What four? That which when seen is spoken of as seen, that which when heard is spoken of as heard, that which when sensed is spoken of as sensed, that which when cognised is spoken of as cognised . 'The Buddha said that the monk might be questioned as to what he knows and sees in respect to these "four modes of statement", so that he can say that he is freed from the "cankers" with no grasping remaining. We read that that monk would be in accordance with dhamma were he to say: "I, your reverences, not feeling attracted to things seen... heard... sensed... cognised, not feeling repelled by them, independent, not infatuated, freed, released, dwell with a mind that is unconfined. So, your reverences, as I know thus, see thus in repect of these four modes of statement, I can say that my mind is freed from the cankers with no grasping (remaining)." 'The Buddha said that the monks should rejoice in that monk's words and approve of them. Then a further question might be asked and this concerns his knowledge of the five khandhas or aggregates, here referred to as the "groups of grasping". We read that that monk would be in accordance with dhamma were he to say: "I, your reverences, having known that material shape (rupa)... feeling... perception(sanna) ... the habitual tendencies (sankharakkhandha, all cetasikas other than feeling and perception) ... consciousness, is of little strength, fading away, comfortless; by the destruction, fading away, stopping, giving up and casting out of grasping after and hankering after material shape... feeling... perception... the habitual tendencies... consciousness which are mental dogmas, biases and tendencies, I comprehend that my mind is freed...." 'We then read that the person who declares himself to be an arahat might be questioned about the six elements of extension (or solidity), cohesion, radiation (temperature, appearing as heat or cold), motion , space and consciousness . Further on we read that the monk who declares himself to be an arahat might be questioned about his understanding of the twelve ayatanas, sense-fields. After that we read that he might be questioned about the tendency to pride. Pride or conceit is eradicated at the attainment of the fourth stage of enlightenment, the stage of the arahat. It cannot be eradicated at the attainment of the first three stages of enlightenment. 'We then read about the monk's life of non-violence and fewness of wishes, and of his observance of purity of sila, his moral conduct in speech and deeds. We read about his "guarding of the six doors" through mindfulness: 'If I saw visible object with the eye I was not entranced by the general appearance, I was not entranced by the detail. If I dwelt with this organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil unskilled states, might flow in. So I fared along controlling it, I guarded the organ of sight, I achieved control over it... 'The same is said with regard to the other doorways. There is no self who can control the sense-doors, but at the moment of awareness there is no akusala citta on account of the objects presenting themselves. Further on we read about the monk's mindfulness in any situation, no matter what he is doing or what his posture is: walking, standing, sitting or lying down. We read, "I was one who comported myself properly", and this refers to mindfulness and right understanding of realities which appear. We then read about his attainment of the "four meditations", namely the four stages of rupa- jhana, fine-material absorption. Only the person who has accumulations for the attainment of jhana can attain it, but he should not take his attainment for self, he should not cling to jhana. The attainment of jhana is not a necessary condition for the development of vipassana and enlightenment. Further on we read that the monk said: "Thus with the mind composed, quite purified, quite clarified, without blemish, without defilement, grown soft and workable, stable, immovable, I directed my mind to the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers. I understood as it really is: This is dukkha... this the arising of dukkha... this the stopping of dukkha... this the course leading to the stopping of dukkha. I understood as it really is: These are the cankers... this is the arising of the cankers... this the stopping of the cankers... this the course leading to the stopping of the cankers. When I knew and saw this thus, my mind was freed from the canker of the sense-pleasures and my mind was freed from the canker of becoming and my mind was freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom the knowledge came to be that I was freed and I comprehended: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so. So, your reverences, as I know thus, see thus, in respect of this consciousness-informed body and all external phenomena, I can say that my tendency to pride that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' has been properly extirpated".... 'This sutta reminds us of the conditions which are necessary for the attainment of enlightenment. The objects of which right understanding is to be developed are so near: the five khandhas, the "sense-fields" or ayatanas, the elements, all the objects which impinge time and again on the six doors, but we have accumulated such an amount of ignorance. It is a long road, but even a short moment of awareness and understanding are worth while because then there are conditions for having less ignorance. " ********** Sorry, I had trouble snipping here, but I hope you’ll find the quotes useful for further consideration. Sarah ================ 11520 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Lee Dillion wrote: > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > In your post, you note the following: > > > The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to > > be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna. > > and > > > the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > > it takes aeons. > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana takes, > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I am > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process comes > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea come > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? Well, in the spirit of "evam me suttam," all I can add is: "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return." So this should make pretty clear, from the words attributed to the Buddha (in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta), how long Satipatthana takes to develop for those whio diligently put the teachings into direct and unremitting daily practice. As volitional beings, we are of course free to believe that the moon is made of green cheese, or that satipatthana takes aeons to develop. Which is an idea I can't help but think rings of lack of saddha, or lack of confidence in the Buddha's teachings--to these ears anyway. The alternative to this would to me is to place enough confidence in the teachings of the Buddha on Satipatthana to actually put the four foundations (all four, not one, or a subset of one, or a personal interpretation of a subset of one) into direct practice, without any excuses or eel-wriggling on what the practices and training actually entail, given they're spelled out in sufficient detail to begin a plan of action under the guidance of a kalyanamitrata who's gone that way before (simply consider the case of Angulimala). So, at least according to the most reliable record we have of what the Blessed One taught, if the instructions are practiced rightly, they can indeed serve as the conditions to bring wisdom to fruition very quickly. And this has been historically true for many, not just for a few. The alternative (believing it's too dificult or "out of reach") is too unpleasant to entertain, simply considering the Buddha's observations that all the tears we've cried throughout our countless lifetimes up until now would be benough to fill all the world's oceans, or the bones of the corpses we've left behind are greater in height and girth than Mount Meru, or that the odds of ever finding a precious human birh in which we have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma is so rare that to let this life pass without doing the utmost to break free HERE AND NOW, IN THIS LIFETIME, is just too ugly to contemplate. For me, anyway. 11521 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 - and welcome Lee --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Lee, > > I'll also look forward to Nina's or anyone else's reply to you on the > useful questions you've raised below. Hi Sarah, Why not just read what the Suttas say on it instead? :) Erik, (enjoying, without too much lobha, I hope, to a whole lotta somanassa vedana at the moment :) 11522 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:37am Subject: Rahula - the fetter Dear All, Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and what eventually became of him? metta, Christine 11523 From: Lee Dillion Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 - and welcome Lee Sarah wrote: > Anyway, this is just an excuse to also welcome you to dsg. I'll look > forward to more of your helpful comments and questions. If you would care > to follow Mike B's good example and share anything else about yourself or > interest in dhamma, we'd be glad to hear. I apologize for the lack of introduction - I thought I was posting to dhamma-list. Oops. Anyway, not much to say at this point, but will share more as the opportunity arises. Thanks for the welcome. -- Lee Dillion 11524 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 5:38am Subject: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > . ""Over there are the roots of trees; over > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't > later fall into regret. This is our message to you.""" > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is unnecessary, I wonder > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? >++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Rob E. I was impressed with your post to Nina today. Glad you brought this sutta up, as there are several like it in the Tipitaka. I think it is one of those phrases that need a little explication. The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical phrase: "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i 118 (MN 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and vipassanaa". "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195 (there's a bit more just before this) Jim: >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find >> that it does not >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both >> samatha and >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a >> better translation than >> 'Practice jhana'. "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha ending. In the PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the -ti ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will find two entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to burn, to be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and vipassanaa" in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that helps to clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according to anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." -- MA i 195." end of section by Jim Anderson. ----------- When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types. The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." (same pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above. The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote best wishes robert 11525 From: yuzhonghao Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 5:41am Subject: Self Dhammapada XII Self Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- 157*: If you hold yourself dear then guard, guard yourself well. The wise person would stay awake nursing himself in any of the three watches of the night, the three stages of life. 158: First he'd settle himself in what is correct, only then teach others. He wouldn't stain his name : he is wise. 159: If you'd mold yourself the way you teach others, then, well-trained, go ahead & tame -- for, as they say, what's hard to tame is you yourself. 160: Your own self is your own mainstay, for who else could your mainstay be? With you yourself well-trained you obtain the mainstay hard to obtain. 161: The evil he himself has done -- self-born, self-created -- grinds down the dullard, as a diamond, a precious stone. 162*: When overspread by extreme vice -- like a sal tree by a vine -- you do to yourself what an enemy would wish. 163: They're easy to do -- things of no good & no use to yourself. What's truly useful & good is truly harder than hard to do. 164*: The teaching of those who live the Dhamma, worthy ones, noble: whoever maligns it -- a dullard, inspired by evil view -- bears fruit for his own destruction, like the fruiting of the bamboo. 165*: Evil is done by oneself by oneself is one defiled. Evil is left undone by oneself by oneself is one cleansed. Purity & impurity are one's own doing. No one purifies another. No other purifies one. 166*: Don't sacrifice your own welfare for that of another, no matter how great. Realizing your own true welfare, be intent on just that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/12.html 11526 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:21am Subject: Erik's full moon postcard Hi Erik, --- rikpa21 wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Why not just read what the Suttas say on it instead? :) I know..why not throw out the vinaya, the abhidhamma, the commentaries and any discussion lists while we're at it?;-) In fact, why not throw out the Khuddaka-nikaya (inc. Jatakas and Theri-Theragatha) and just read specific Suttas??....or just specific lines such as those which Sariputta listened to?? :) :) > Erik, thanks for the sign- off on this post too;-) > (enjoying, without too much lobha, I hope, to a whole lotta > somanassa vedana at the moment :) Translation for the unenlightened: this is Erik's cyber-postcard from 'a pretty nice location'.... Good luck to enjoying those golden beaches, full moon without blue cheese, palm trees in the breeze, tasty Thai dishes, forever smiling company...all without too much lobha;-)) Seriously, I'm glad it's going well... Thanks for checking in and I hope someone responds to your other post.... hang around for when Dan makes his March appearance and we can all sit back and enjoy any eel-wriggling then;-) Sarah p.s. thought of you and yr family (in Salt Lake City) when the Winter Olympics ended peacefully;-) ========================================= 11527 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:31am Subject: automatic --- Dear Group, Sorry for some more cross-posting. I posted the letter I wrote to Rob. E. to another list and someone replied. Howard gave such a profound reply to this that I thought you'd like to read it. >Dear Robert, I try to condense in some words: > (correct me if I am wrong) >Whatever happens right now > is the result of past << conditions >> >Man has no volition, intention, > free will, initiative at all ! > What appear as volition (cetana) intention, free will, initiative are also already << conditioned >> > by past conditions ! > ______________ In dhamma-list@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, ... No, there IS volition. And it is "free", unless what one means by 'free' is being uncaused. Of course we do act volitionally all the time. But that volition is formed (sankhata) by numerous conditions, among which are our predispositions accumulated over many lifetimes. Our volition expresses our inclinations. In fact that is what makes our volition seem personal, what makes it "our" volition. Would you feel "freer" if volition were random? (Of course, nothing is random, and, also, it is an error to truly think of volition as personal even though it is conditioned by our predispositions, because "our" predispositions are also impersonal.) It's a funny business how we think about willing. On the one hand we want it to be completely free, which really means we don't want it to be the result of conditions, but on the other hand we want it to be "our" volition, for otherwise we feel that we lack free will and are helpless slaves. We want our cake and to eat it as well. But the way things are is as they are. We need to forget about what we would *like* things to be, and, instead, come to see clearly how they actually are. With metta, Howard 11528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Num's life and study Dear Num, I found it very interesting to hear about your life and Dhamma interest, from your youth, when you in your aunt's house could not help listening to A. Sujin's radio programs. By conditions you came to your aunt's house, the result of kusala kamma. Gradually an interest in Dhamma developed, from moment to moment, by conditions. What consideration, kindness and delicate feeling of your aunt never to intrude or force Dhamma on you. She let it all depend on your interest. How did your interest develop further? Does it have to do with your medical study? And now you help many in your sympathetic and unpretending way. When in Thailand you could ask your aunt for a small card with all the radio stations and times on it of A. Sujin's programs, very convenient. Again, she is unlikely to suggest this herself to you, not wanting to force anything. From early morning on you can just tune in. And very good in the evening, when one is too tired to read. I always like it when in Thailand, so does Jonothan. Speaking of listening, the India tapes are very good, but maybe you can get them from a Web. You could also ask her to send you A. Sujin's book on the paramis, but maybe you have plenty to read. op 25-02-2002 04:18 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: > We talked about the definitions of maggarammana, maggahetuka and > maggadhipati. I got stuck there at the 4 indriyas are "should not be said to > have either, path as their objects (maggarammana); path as their cause > (maggahetuka) or path as their dominating factor (maggadhipati)." The meaning > is very subtle and intricate but I think it is important to test myself of > how much do I really understand what I think I understand. We also talked > about adhipatipaccaya. Nina: Such lists are really difficult. It is helpful to read next to the Vibhanga its commentary, Dispeller of Delusion, Sammohavinodani, and here, Ch 5, classification of the faculties (indriyas). But not all is explained. As Jaran said before, we should just study what we can understand. I leave all those lists, sometimes they are useful to check something, so that we do not make mistakes when writing about a subject. Num: > I also told her that I plan to read Jatakas to my nieces and nephews when I > get back home. Nina: that is very kind and thoughtful of you, to take time off doing this. Jatakas are not as easy as they may look, but they are good for understanding the application of kusala in daily life. How old are the children? Like you they may gradually develop more interest, it happens almost unknowingly. Num: Topic in lecturer meeting this week was about ayatana and the another one was > about does entering palasamapatti need jhana-sampatti as a preexisting > factor? My aunt told me that there will be an archive of lecturer meeting > printed out in Thai for free distribution on this Maghapuja day. She will ask > whether someone can send you a word.doc document to you. Nina: a word doc may not be useful because of my mac computer. But K. Duangduen had said she would send it to me by post, I hope she will do this, because I am very keen about these subjects. Especially ayatanas. With best wishes and appreciation, Nina. 11529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:04am Subject: India Ch 5, no. 1 India Ch 5, no. 1 The True Refuge. We read in the ³Mahå Parinibbåna Sutta² (Dígha Nikåya 16, The Book of the Great Decease, 100-101) 1 that the Buddha spoke to Ånanda about his old age, being in his eightieth year, and that he said that his life was spent: Therefore, Ånanda, be an island to yourself, a refuge to yourself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge. And how, Ånanda, is a monk an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge? When he dwells contemplating body in the body... feeling in the feelings, mind in the mind, and mental objects in the mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge. Those monks of mine, Ånanda, who now, or after I am gone, abide as an island to themselves, as a refuge to themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge; it is they who will become the highest, if they have the desire to learn. When we were sitting near the Bodhi Tree for a Dhamma discussion, Acharn Sujin said that we are an island to ourselves when we develop understanding ourselves. We listen in order to have more understanding and we consider what we heard. It has to be our own understanding, nobody else can develop it for us. We read in this Sutta about the four Applications of Mindfulness: physical phenomena, feelings, cittas, and dhammas, that is, cetasikas and other realities under different aspects not included in the other three Applications of Mindfulness. Acharn Sujin explained that when we read about these four Applications of Mindfulness, we should not merely think of their names. They should remind us to be aware of the reality that appears now. When someone reads in the section on the Application of Mindfulness of the Body about mindfulness of breath or the cemetery meditations, he may wonder in what way he should apply this. People have different accumulated inclinations: some people have accumulated skill to develop high degrees of calm, whereas others do not have such inclinations. Some people may develop calm with meditation subjects such as the foulness of the body, or mindfulness of breathing, and they may even attain calm to the degree of jhåna, absorption. There is no rule that all people should develop samatha, calm, to a high degree before they develop insight. But no matter what one¹s inclinations are, one should know and understand that what appears because of conditions is impermanent and non-self. After each section of the Applications of Mindfulness, it has been repeatedly stated that one should contemplate the origination and dissolution of realities. This understanding can only be acquired by the development of insight, right understanding of the reality that appears now. Also the citta that develops mindfulness on breathing as a meditation subject of samatha is impermanent and non-self. We should not forget that the four Applications of Mindfulness include all the common realities of our daily life, such as pain, pleasant feeling, hearing, tasting, sound or tangible object. These are the objects of satipatthåna. We have ignorance and wrong view of all realities, we see all the pleasant things of life as a true refuge. We do not realize that all conditioned dhammas are susceptible to change and decay. We should listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right friend in Dhamma. In India Acharn Sujin proved again and again to be our right friend in Dhamma. We should consider carefully what we learnt through her and apply it by the development of right understanding of nåma and rúpa. Gradually the characteristics of nåma and rúpa can be understood as they really are and they can be seen as impermanent, dukkha (unsatisfactory or suffering) and anattå, non-self. In this way we shall realize that Dhamma is our true refuge, that there is no external refuge. 11530 From: michael newton Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Num's life and study >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Num's life and study >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:04:16 +0100 >Hello!Nina; I see at the end of this email you wrote that you have a MAC.So do I,I have a MACIBOOK,and I truly love it, I like PC's to but feel better with my Mac,but this isn't why,I'm sending this,and I don't mean to change the subject matter of these inspiring emails.I'm having a small problem.I have 2 email accounts.One is this one,at Hotmail,and the other is my yahoo acoount(which is Garberville83712). What is happening is that I'm getting exactly the same messages from your group on my Yahoo account-that I'm getting on my hotmail account-seem's like this is unnessessary.Can I drop out of your group from Hotmail-while keeping your dhammastudygroup connection on my Yahoo.account?Think,if I could do this-it would make my life a little easier.Don't know,Nina,whether you or Sarah,know anything of this,but since many members,will see this-maybe there is a member of this group,who is knowlegible,that could guide me.Tried to do it on my own,no sucess.YOURS IN THE DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL >Dear Num, I found it very interesting to hear about your life and Dhamma >interest, from your youth, when you in your aunt's house could not help >listening to A. Sujin's radio programs. By conditions you came to your >aunt's house, the result of kusala kamma. Gradually an interest in Dhamma >developed, from moment to moment, by conditions. What consideration, >kindness and delicate feeling of your aunt never to intrude or force Dhamma >on you. She let it all depend on your interest. How did your interest >develop further? Does it have to do with your medical study? And now you >help many in your sympathetic and unpretending way. >When in Thailand you could ask your aunt for a small card with all the >radio >stations and times on it of A. Sujin's programs, very convenient. Again, >she >is unlikely to suggest this herself to you, not wanting to force anything. >From early morning on you can just tune in. And very good in the evening, >when one is too tired to read. I always like it when in Thailand, so does >Jonothan. Speaking of listening, the India tapes are very good, but maybe >you can get them from a Web. You could also ask her to send you A. Sujin's >book on the paramis, but maybe you have plenty to read. > >op 25-02-2002 04:18 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: > > > We talked about the definitions of maggarammana, maggahetuka and > > maggadhipati. I got stuck there at the 4 indriyas are "should not be >said to > > have either, path as their objects (maggarammana); path as their cause > > (maggahetuka) or path as their dominating factor (maggadhipati)." The >meaning > > is very subtle and intricate but I think it is important to test myself >of > > how much do I really understand what I think I understand. We also >talked > > about adhipatipaccaya. > >Nina: Such lists are really difficult. It is helpful to read next to the >Vibhanga its commentary, Dispeller of Delusion, Sammohavinodani, and here, >Ch 5, classification of the faculties (indriyas). But not all is explained. >As Jaran said before, we should just study what we can understand. I leave >all those lists, sometimes they are useful to check something, so that we >do >not make mistakes when writing about a subject. > >Num: > I also told her that I plan to read Jatakas to my nieces and nephews >when I > > get back home. >Nina: that is very kind and thoughtful of you, to take time off doing this. >Jatakas are not as easy as they may look, but they are good for >understanding the application of kusala in daily life. How old are the >children? Like you they may gradually develop more interest, it happens >almost unknowingly. > >Num: Topic in lecturer meeting this week was about ayatana and the another >one was > > about does entering palasamapatti need jhana-sampatti as a preexisting > > factor? My aunt told me that there will be an archive of lecturer >meeting > > printed out in Thai for free distribution on this Maghapuja day. She >will ask > > whether someone can send you a word.doc document to you. > >Nina: a word doc may not be useful because of my mac computer. But K. >Duangduen had said she would send it to me by post, I hope she will do >this, >because I am very keen about these subjects. Especially ayatanas. >With best wishes and appreciation, Nina. > > > 11531 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:41pm Subject: Michael - technical problems Dear Michael, It would be better to write off-list to Jon or I with any technical or list problems and if we can't help, we'll forward them to someone more knowledgable. Actually, Nina and I are probably the last people on the list to be able to help with this, but hopefully Kom or Jon or someone else will write to you (off-list). Hope you get it sorted out and good to see your interest in dhamma. Sarah p.s please remember to trim posts and just keep the part you need for your reply. --- michael newton wrote: > >Hello!Nina; > I see at the end of this email you wrote that you have a MAC.So do I,I > have > a MACIBOOK,and I truly love it, > I like PC's to but feel better with my Mac,but this isn't why,I'm > sending > this,and I don't mean to change the > subject matter of these inspiring emails.I'm having a small problem 11532 From: Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 0:24pm Subject: Re:Gradual vs. abrupt process. Dear Lee, Sarah, Nina and everyone; Sorry for a long post. Not a lot of my own writing. I pretty much cut and pasted from various sources. Let me share what I have noted from sutta. Some have talked about next life and aeon. The last vagga of salayatanavagga, samyuttanikaya, there are series of sutta about will beings reborn or not reborn. King Pasentikosala,Vacchagotta and wanderers asked Khematheri, Ven.Anurudha, Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Mogallana and also the Buddha about this dilemma. This is my rough translation: Being when dies, will be reborn? Being when dies, will not be reborn? Being when dies, will some be reborn, and some not be reborn? Being when dies, not to be said to be reborn and not be said to be not reborn? They said that if people still cling on their eyes, ears, noses, tongues, bodies and minds or still clings on rupa-, vedana-, sanna-, sankara- and vinnakhandha as self, they would keep clinging to that idea. But if one has no avijja or tanha, there will be no clinging to such idea. For each question asked, the Buddha and his disciples answered with the same words, "the Budhha does not answer this question (abyakata)!!! Then Ven.Ananda asked the Buddha why he did not answer Vacchagotta those questions. Anandasutta.Salayatanavagga, samyuttanikaya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html …"Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?" "Ananda, if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self -- were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self -- were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?" "No, lord." "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" My idea is thinking about how long samsara will be or when we will be attaining nibbana is just a concept. As far as I can get, from Robert's explanation about paticcasamuppada, if there is no more avijja and no more tanha. The cycle is then ended. Come back to gradual vs. abrupt process. Let me put in 3 examples from tipitaka, one is abrupt and other 2 are gradual. 1) Abrupt Vinaya, mahavagga rgd Ven Sariputta entered the stream. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html#saristream …Then Sariputta the wanderer spoke thus to the Ven. Assaji: Speak a little or a lot, but tell me just the gist. The gist is what I want. What use is a lot of rhetoric? Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer: Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of Tathagata, the Great Contemplative. Then to Sariputta the Wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. …. 2) Gradual process sutta: 2.1)Uposatha. Vinaya, cullavagga. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-05.html#gradual "The eight amazing and astounding facts about the ocean" …"[1] The ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch. The fact that the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch: This is the first amazing and astounding fact about the ocean that, as they see it again and again, has the Asuras greatly pleased with the ocean. …….(2….-8) then the Buddha explained: "[1] Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch. The fact that this Doctrine and Discipline has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch: This is the first amazing and astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline that, as they see it again and again, has the monks greatly pleased with the Doctrine and Discipline. …. 2.2) Navasutta. Khandhavaravagga, samyuttanikaya. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html …"Just as when a carpenter or carpenter's apprentice sees the marks of his fingers or thumb on the handle of his adze but does not know, 'Today my adze handle wore down this much, or yesterday it wore down that much, or the day before yesterday it wore down this much,' still he knows it is worn through when it is worn through. In the same way, when a monk dwells devoting himself to development, he does not know, 'Today my effluents wore down this much, or yesterday they wore down that much, or the day before yesterday they wore down this much,' still he knows they are worn through when they are worn through. …. And last, my interest in Buddhism has been building up very slowly. Nina, I usually liked to listen to A.Sujin program in the morning when I was driving to my school (college). You know, the traffic in Bangkok during rush hour is painful. I thought it's better to do something useful than to fuss about the traffic all the way to the hospital. Mainly, I keep reading and listening to dhamma b/c I see some benefit from it. Just understanding what is kusala and what is not is a big and significant step for me, I am still working on it ;). Sarah, for me one post a day is probably my capability. Num 11533 From: mikebrotherto Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Mike B, > > Many thanks for all your fascinating background details. we look forward > to any sharing from all your experiences and study. You raise a lot of > interesting points, but I'll just skip to the end for now if you don't > mind: > > --- mikebrotherto wrote: > > > > > I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of mindful > > presence. Although, I must admit, with utmost respect to all, that I > > wonder when some of you find the time to actually be still and let it > > be. Like my mama used to say 'you keep picking at that scab it's never > > going to heal'. > > This is quite amusing and I'm not sure how (on my behalf, let alone anyone > else's;-)) to answer the question. Perhaps I should ask what it means to > 'be still' and 'let it be' first..... Can we determine the 'being still' > by the 'activity', I question? Dear Sarah, Thank you for responding so kindly. I can only speak for myself here but I imagine there are many who mindfully read Dhammastudygroup's posts but do not participate. For me, it is a bit intimidating because of the scholarly detail of most posts - the dissection of Pali, etc. It's hard to participate because the jist of the discussions are so cognitive and foreign to me at this time. In my first post, I was insinuating that the "top ten or so" posters of Dhammastudygroup must spend a lot of their day, well, posting. That, of course, is presumptuous on my part and apologize if there was any offense. My sense is that there are a number of you who are academics and do this for a livelihood. What a wonderful place to work with colleagues! Although I obtained a degree in Philopsophy of Religion many years ago, I have always 'hung around' those who practice "awareness" more than those who study the different connotations of a particular word. Nina's last post India Ch 4, no. 4, is probably the most appropriate response to my current point of view. ...Acharn Sujin"...However, we should first study and understand what citta, cetasika and rupa are, so that there are conditions for the arising of awareness. If someone says that one should just be aware from the very beginning without study of realities, without knowing about the conditions for sati, it is wrong." That pretty much sums up it up. I infer that if one only remains aware, one will not be able to recognize dhamma when it arises, because one doesn't know what one should be aware of. My point was that it seems like there is a tremendous amount of "study" clock-time on the site. When does one have time to sit and just be aware if one is studying all the time? I am sure that is not the case, though. I find the cultural differences of approaching Buddhism quite intriguing. Many of us in the U.S. who are "lay" usually get some watered down outline of the teachings and then are instructed in how to sit and meditate. The teachers that I know are concerned that no one will participate if the cognitive part of understanding is pressed to the level found in dhammastudygroup. Personally, I love it and study diligently. Most of my dhamma friends do not. Anyway, if there ever is an opportunity for me to participate meaningfully, I shall. With Metta, Mike B 11534 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:56pm Subject: To Sarah A from Sarah F Dear Mrs. Abbott, I've asked Mum to send this to you. Thank-you very much for your beautiful letter, it isn't too long, it is just right. I printed your letter to keep and read again. Sometimes I wish Hamish and Ashley are in Heaven, and we will all be together again one day. But mostly I wish it was a month ago and I was still laughing, and hugging Hamish my friend. And I could send him a text message on his mobile and he would always reply. And it would be good to know that Ashley will tease me as usual at the next party. but they won't ever be at the next party, and we' will never laugh together or hug each other again. I never felt angry that they were ' taken '. I only felt disappointment that these wonderful people who I felt had so much more ahead of them had an early end to this life. However at the same time, I was so happy that they had always taken every opportunity to see people and enjoy everything they encountered, and when they passed on, I took this lesson of life from them. Most people, especially my other close friends kept asking why and if only......I did for awhile but then I realised it was going to happen no matter how the circumstances were different. I don't think saying someone is a buddhist or a christian has any point. a good person or a bad person can be any religion or nationality. I'm not sure what I believe. It would be good to know for certain that God has a plan. and that there is a point to everything. People say 'God needed Hamish and Ashley more than we do' and 'only the good die young' and 'they had learned all the lessons they came to learn,' sometimes I wonder if we have got things wrong about heaven and hell, sometimes I think this is hell. It is hell for Lachlan, Hamishs' cousin and flatmate, he was driving. The main thing that I found awful was even those that were close to Lachlan were blaming him for the accident although he was not at fault. All I could think of was that that poor boy had lost his best friend, cousin and girlfriend. It is hell for Michael (who gave the eulogy) they are his two best friends who he saw every day. and it is hell for the parents. I hope that the crash happened too quickly for some of them to feel pain like you say. maybe Ashley and Jodie, but Hamish took three hours to die and I didn't even feel that it was happening to him. There is no use in feeling sorry for myself. I am not the one hurting the most. Like my Nana says "what can't be cured, must be endured. I would really like to meet you, and Mr. Abbott too, in May, if my brother Luke and I come to Hong Kong to see Dad. We think it is definite, but things always change, so I'll let you know when it comes closer. Thank you for the nice things you have said about me and Mum. I tell her she is my best friend. I felt that the best thing I could do and that could assist me in my mourning process was to help everyone around me, and for me Mum going to Bangkok and for her to come back and tell me how much she enjoyed herself and what she learned and talked about, was a great assistance in changing my mood for that week. If she had not gone I think I would of continued to feel depressed, feeling that I had somehow held her back. We are both strong people and I knew I could spare her for a few days. :) Not a usual word - Loving-kindness. It is the feeling which came out of your letter. I can see why my Mum likes you so much. Yours sincerely, Sarah Forsyth 11535 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:59pm Subject: Sarah F. to Mrs van Gorkom, Mr Epstein, and Dr. Num Dear Mrs. van Gorkom, Mr. Epstein and Dr. Num, Mum forwarded all your letters to me to read and I wanted to reply and say that I think it is lovely that people who don't even know me, and who live so far away, have sent me their good wishes. it's very nice. Mrs. van Gorkom, when you say "make your loss into a learning experience' you sound just like my Mum. When I was a little one, she used to say 'and what have you learned from this Sarah?', usually after I'd been in trouble! She only calls me Sarah when I'm in trouble. What I've learned now is that you should love people and be gentle and not judge them, because anything can happen to anyone, anytime. As my Mum says 'Don't let the sun go down on an argument' and I think that means the same thing. Mr. Epstein, your story of the lady who lost her whole family one after the other, is a bit like Ashleys' father - a couple of days before Ashley was killed, his Dad flew from Sydney to Brisbane to visit him; after going back, the Police had to call on him and tell him what had happened. Ashleys' Mum was killed eight years ago in an identical car accident (someone running a red light), and his Dad brought up Ashley and his sister alone. Once there were four in the family, now it's down to two. Life sucks. People say it was good they were together in the last couple of days. But I say, he is still just as dead. Dr. Num, Mum says she has already passed on my thanks to you for thinking of me. It was kind of you. Yours sincerely, Sarah Forsyth 11536 From: rikpa21 Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: Erik's full moon postcard --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, > > --- rikpa21 wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > Why not just read what the Suttas say on it instead? :) > > I know..why not throw out the vinaya, the abhidhamma, the commentaries and > any discussion lists while we're at it?;-) That was not the point at all Sarah, and I think you know that :) Because I have a bias toward the Sutta and Vinayana Pitakas as the most authoritative sources of the Blessed One's instructions, for my own edification I seek out FIRST the words of the Suttas, and if I need any commentarial gloss, seek further cl;arification from these secondary sources. The point is, and I think we can most of us agree, that the Suttas represent the heart-essence of the Buddha's instrutions, some pithy and difficult to interpret as they are. Nevertheless, when his teachings are plainly spoken, spoken in a way that leaves little room for further interpretation, such as the time necessary for the cultivation of sati and jhana to the point of awakening, then I feel it best to accept these as definitive, and see no need for recourse to additional layers of hermeneutical gloss. > In fact, why not throw out the > Khuddaka-nikaya (inc. Jatakas and Theri-Theragatha) and just read specific > Suttas?? This has worked for many historically, so, indeed, why not allow the the Dhamma and Vinaya (and to the best of my recollection comenatrial literature never made its appearance until the second council--and that includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka, no matter its fabled origins a la so many Mahayan Sutras) to serve as the guide? Unless of course we find it helpful to consider tales like the jatakas (I do) for their instructive (in the allegorical if not literal) sense, much as Aesop's fables; or secondary sources like the Abhidhamma and its commentaries and sub-commentaries to help on points of difficulty. But in my opnion, if these are seen as anything moer than potentially helpful adjuncts to the reputedly spoken utterances of the Blessed One, then I believe there is a danger in reading too much into the commentary while eschewing the mostly simple and direct teachings of the Buddha. I would never wish to see the commentaries done away with, merely that they are placed in the appropriate context, as a way to clarify and serve as aids to those point which need further interpretation, and not as replacements for those points which stand planly by themselves. As the Buddha advised in the Neyyattha Sutta: "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." The Buddha makes the explicit statement (Maha Satipatthana Sutta) on the appropriate development of the Four Frames of Reference: "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." Hermeneutically speaking, this is jes' folks, plain talk. Though you are free of course to disagree, I see nothing in these words that indicates they demans further interpretation. I believe he meant exactly what he said on this point, and that any commentarial gloss on this points adds nothing if it is interpreted in a way they leads to discouragement, to laziness, to the wrong view that liberation in this lifetime is out of reach. To me any interpretation that does not lend itself to aroused persistence, to dispassion not to entanglement, to shedding, not to accumulating, to relinquishment, letting go, and above all the confidence in the sage advice I find in the well-spoken words the Buddha, I do not accept as Dhamma, Vinaya, or the Teacher's instruction. (cf. the Gotami Sutta): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-053.html ....or just specific lines such as those which Sariputta listened > to?? :) :) > > > Erik, > > thanks for the sign- off on this post too;-) > > > (enjoying, without too much lobha, I hope, to a whole lotta > > somanassa vedana at the moment :) > > Translation for the unenlightened: this is Erik's cyber-postcard from 'a > pretty nice location'.... Good luck to enjoying those golden beaches, full > moon without blue cheese, palm trees in the breeze, tasty Thai dishes, > forever smiling company...all without too much lobha;-)) Heh heh heh. Especially after last night's Full Moon Party on Ko Pha Ngan (never thought I'd actually go to rave with all its attendant Bacchanalian madness, but did, and found it quite the once-is-enough- for-this-lifetime experience, so pardon my recent howling. :) Talk about lunacy. In the very most literal sense of the word! :) > Thanks for checking in and I hope someone responds to your other post.... > hang around for when Dan makes his March appearance and we can all sit > back and enjoy any eel-wriggling then;-) The spoon is in the pot Sarah, no worries! And I hope you like hot chilis in your soup! :) > p.s. thought of you and yr family (in Salt Lake City) when the Winter > Olympics ended peacefully;-) Oh yeah, the Olympics. I pretty much forgot about that. The only salient things that sticks in my mind about it is that the US army delpoyed more troops to my parents' hometown than were present for the so-called "Afghan invasion." I truly worry for the future of that land and especially its people. 11537 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and what > eventually became of him? > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first time after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental permission. Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was declared foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also features in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses in the Theragatha. I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't remember anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and the place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he never lay on a bed". Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details to add. Sarah ============================ 11538 From: rikpa21 Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:47am Subject: Re: India Ch 5, no. 1 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > There is no rule that all people should develop samatha, > calm, to a high degree before they develop insight. But no matter what one¹s > inclinations are, one should know and understand that what appears because > of conditions is impermanent and non-self. Hello Nina, I just to add that I find some points of question on this when you say there is no need to develop samatha "to a high degree." To my understanding, samatha exists as a means to pacify the hindrances, and is a necessary prerequisite for liberative insight, individual accumulations notwithstanding. So long as the mind is overly distracted by factors like kukucca, kamachanda, vyapada, etc., the type of highly developed insight associated with the lokuttara panna lacks the appropriate conditions to arise. If the mind is beset by sensuous desire, by ill-will, by skeptical doubt and worry, sloth and torpor, by restlessness and excitement, it is impossible to cultivate any meaningful degree of equanimity-- upekkha--one of the seven enlightenment factors. Likewise, when the mind is beset by these hindrances dhamma-vicaya is extremely difficult as the mind is preoccupied with unskillful thoughts and elaborations (ayoniso manasikara). How can we truly investigate the characteristics of dhammas as they are, if the mind is worrying about the credit card balance, yesterdaty's argument with the boss, tomorrow's vacation plans? Or if the mind is unstable and scattered to the ten directions due to resetlessness and excitement or sunk into the pit of laziness? Or perhaps most debilitating of all, caught in the belief that awakening is impossible, not in this lifetime, something for others, not for these khandas, which could easily be the enemy of moha masqeurading as false humility? According to my understanding and reading of the Suttas, the Buddha spoke plainly in the Satipatthana Sutta that the "monk trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrications, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrications." Samatha, in other words. And this as a prelimuinary exercise the leads the mind to tranquility and pleasant abiding here and now, engendering piti, one of the seven enlightenment factors. This is part and parcel with the development of jhana to the degree liberative insight has the conditions for arising (samadhi is after all another of the bojjhangas), as well as viriya, and so on. The six pairs (yuggalas) also factor heavily into this, as these engender the lightness and pliancy of mind neeeded to remain focused appropriately on the body, feelings, mind, and dhammas in & of themselves, without bias, detached, leading to equanimity as regards formations and ultimately to change-of-lineage and the insight that cuts the knot of grasping at the root, if only for a short while at first, and finally at the moment or arahata-magga-nana. According the the Buddha's instructions in many Suttas, including the Parinibbana Sutta, it is the seven factors of enlightenment, when brought to culmination, that lead to clear knowing and release here and now. Only when these factors are present are the approriate conditions present for the wisdom to arise that permanently severs the fetters binding us to the wheel of samsaric existence. > We > should not forget that the four Applications of Mindfulness include all the > common realities of our daily life, such as pain, pleasant feeling, hearing, > tasting, sound or tangible object. These are the objects of satipatthåna. Indeed, and we should likewise not avoid the training needed for true sati to remain steadfast throughout our daily activities of standing, sitting, walking, and lying. But the type of sati that remains steadfast and mindful, clearly comprehending, is, for all but the rarest spiritual savant, a product of consistent and diligent training, typically under the guidance of accomplished kalyanamitratas (those who we have confidence enough in to believe their understanding of the Dhamma is the product of direct knowledge and not theory). In other words, while I completely agree that we can (and eventually must) take any object as an object of sati, even (and especially) concepts, true sati (I am unsure of what is meant by "Satipatthana" here in DSG apart from its meaning "foundation of mindfulness", and I prefer to use the word samma sati when speaking of Right Mindfulness) is developed over time and with concerted, consistent application of the trainings laid out by the Buddha in all spheres of activity, beginning with the body, and when the mind is appropriately trained in this foundation to move on to vedana, then citta, then dhammas (which also embody conceptual categories such as the Four Noble Truths and so on and its attendant meditations on the origins and cessations of sufferings as they arise through the six doorways, as well as the path, including the indispensible factor of Right Concentration, that leads to the permanent cessation of suffering). 11539 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] the long process of development op 26-02-2002 23:22 schreef Lee Dillion op leedillion@c...: > >> The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to >> be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna.> > and >> the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that >> it takes aeons. > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana takes, > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I am > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process comes > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea come > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? Nina: Dear Lee, here is one sutta I quoted from A. Sujin's Dhamma in Cambodia: As has been explained by the Buddha, the knife handle will wear out as someone holds it, but he does not know how much has been worn away each day. Evenso a person does not know how much of the defilements has been worn away each day. In the ³Kindred Sayings² (III, Khandhå-vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch 5, §101, Adze-handle) the Buddha explained that the åsavas (defilements) can only be destroyed if one realizes the true nature of the five khandhas, their arising and falling away. But this cannot be achieved if one merely wishes for the eradication but is neglectful in the development of the factors of enlightenment. If one is attentive to the development of these factors the åsavas will wear away. We read that the Buddha said 3 : Just as if, monks, when a carpenter or carpenter¹s apprentice looks upon his adze-handle and sees thereon his thumb-mark and his finger-marks he does not thereby know: ³Thus and thus much of my adze-handle has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, thus much at other times.² But he knows the wearing away of it just by its wearing away. Evenso, monks, the monk who dwells attentive to self-training has not this knowledge: ²Thus and thus much of the åsavas has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, and thus much at other times.² But he knows the wearing away of them just by their wearing away.... Try to hold a knife handle, it takes long for it to wear away. The handle may be made from metal, not wood. And also, we may find out whether there is already during our life now some wearing away of ignorance of seeing or of hearing now, of clinging to the concept of self, of stinginess, envy, conceit, etc. Is there still self who sees or is seeing just dhamma, not self but the seeing that sees? And I do not mean understanding of this on the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding, but on the level of patipatti, direct understanding without naming, without using words. That makes us think of how long the development of understanding is going to take. Then in the Therigatha (P.T.S.) we read in Canto XII (and something similar is repeated time and again for the different Theris) : "She too, having made her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring efficacy in this and that rebirth, was, when Vipassi was Buddha, reborn in a clansman"s family. Come to years of discretion, because of the promise that was in her, she waxed anxious at the prospect of rebirth. And, going to the Bhikkhunís, heard the Dhamma, believed, and entered the Order. Perfect in virtue, and learning the Three Pitakas, she became very learned in the Dhamma and a teacher of it. The same destiny befell her under the five succeeding Buddhas-Sikkhi, Vessabhu, Kakusandha, Konagamana, and Kassapa. But because of her tendency to pride she was unable to root out the defilements. So it came to pass, through the kamma of her pride, that, in this Buddha era, she was reborn at Savatthi, in the household of Anathapindika, the Treasurer, of a domestic slave. She became a sotapanna after hearing the Discourse of the Lion's Roar.... We read that she later on attained arahatship. See, she was even a Dhamma teacher, and that also during the time of five succeeding Buddhas. All over the scriptures we find stories about former lives of disciples, and we read that it took aeons before the goal was reached. During the time of the Buddha there were more people who could attain enlightenment quickly even when hearing a few words, or after some more explanation, and at this time this does not happen anymore. No need for discouragement, we can still hear the teachings and develop understanding. But there is clinging to self if we think of my progress, or if we wonder: how much progress did I make. Eric does not like the idea of development during a long time. He mentioned the tortoise and yoke with one hole ( M.III, no 129, and K.S. V, 457). However, this is a different subject: the Buddha exhorted people not to waste time being neglectful. Satipatthana may not arise often, but we can go on considering and studying the teachings, applying what we learnt in daily life, and developing dana, sila and bhavana. In India A. Sujin asked Kom to speak about this sutta, in order to remind us all about this. When we have confidence in the teachings there is no need to be afraid of an unhappy rebirth. As to Eric's quote of the Satipatthana sutta, we have to keep in mind to whom it was spoken. As I said, at that time there were still people who could attain enlightenment quickly. When we consider the amount of ignorance and wrong view we still have, there is no reason to be over optimistic. But, on the other hand, no reason either to be discouraged. We should just be grateful to have the possibility to listen and to develop understanding. And this is also what Rob Ep wrote to me, I quote: end quote. This is realistic. This is how it is. Best wishes from Nina. 11540 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana op 27-02-2002 05:46 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and > the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher > should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for > them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't > later fall into regret. This is our message to you." > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is unnecessary, I > wonder > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > > Nina: Dear Rob Ep, thank you for your well formulated answer to me. You mention very good points. I join Robert K. in his answer about the different meanings of jhana. Here is also a text about jhaana: > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi Contemplate. Contemplate the thirtyeight > objects (of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. contemplate the characteristics beginning with impermanence (dukkha, anatta) of the khandhas, the ayatanas, etc. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha. Develop samatha and vipassana, it was said. Do not be forgetful. > Thus, there are two kinds of upanijjhana, contemplation (or meditation): in samatha, attained with the 38 meditation subjects, and also in vipassana with regard to the three characteristics, that are penetrated only by vipassana. There are more distinctions as to jhana, mundane and supramundane, as Jon has written in excellent posts. I kept part of them and quote now: Jon CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 [Jon's notes:] 5. There are 4 important differences between jhana citta and the path citta – 5.1. The object of jhana citta is a concept , while the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana. 5.2. Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while magga citta eradicates kilesa. 5.3. Jhana cittas are a condition for future rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation from the cycle of birth and death. 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana citta is the degree of concentration on the object at that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths. --------------------------------------- > CMA Ch. I, Guide (ie. summary of commentary) to ##30-31 > > "All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics of > impermanence, suffering, and non-self. [1] However, they differ among > themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi). > > "Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called > practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they reach the > path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > "Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit > which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before reaching > the path... > > "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so > considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they > possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their > counterparts in the mundane jhanas." [4] > [ends] > =================================== > > Jon's notes: > 1. It is the development of understanding of the characteristics of > reality, rather than any other factor, that brings the attainment of the > path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta (magga citta). > 2. Magga citta can be attained without the previus development of > concentration to the level of mundane jhana. > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the concentration accompanying > the moment of path citta *`corresponds to'* the first level of jhana. > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to `correspond to' > jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with same full > absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. End quote from Jon's post. Nina: What people tend to forget: pa~n~naa is a necessary factor for the development of samatha to the degree of jhana. If one thinks that samatha is a base for vipassana: one tends to forget that one has to be highly skilful in jhana, and acquire the masteries (vassis): entering jhana whenever one wishes, changing the stages whenever one wishes, emerging whenever one wishes (see Visuddhimagga). Moreover, the Vis also explains that very few people can attain even access concentration, and the stages of jhana. Vis. XII, 8: It is important to take note of this warning. Best wishes, from Nina. 11541 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:03am Subject: India Ch 5, no. 2 India Ch 5, no 2 We should know what can be the object of sati and paññå when satipatthåna is developed: one reality at a time as it appears through one of the sense-doors or the mind-door. When we taste a flavour we usually are forgetful of realities and we think of the concept of the flavour, such as an apple or a sweet. When we have studied the Dhamma there may be conditions for the arising of sati that is non-forgetful of the reality that appears. It can be mindful of the flavour and then understanding can develop of its true nature so that it can be realized as a rúpa appearing through the tongue. Flavour has a characteristic that can be known directly, without the need to think about it or to name it flavour. We can change the name flavour, but its characteristic is unalterable. Thus, characteristics of realities can be directly understood when they appear one at a time, without the need to think about them. Satipatthåna is at first very slight, we hardly know what it is. But when it arises more often we know. It is followed by thinking, but we can realize that it is thinking. Acharn Sujin said: ²The theory of satipatthåna is not too difficult, but there may not be enough conditions for the arising of right awareness. One is not used to the characteristic of awareness. If there can be thinking of nåma and rúpa, why can¹t there be awareness of them? Right now there is the test of one¹s understanding of seeing, hearing or thinking. While one is listening all realities arise and fall away because of the appropriate conditions... Paññå can know at which moment there is satipaììhåna and at which moment there is not. Sati of satipatthåna arises and falls away very rapidly and one thinks about satipatthåna and the object of satipatthåna. Later on the difference between such moments can be known. Paññå should be keen enough to see the difference. The eightfold Path is difficult because it has to be developed with detachment. Having the intention or the wish to develop it is not the Path; if one wishes to know a reality even if that reality seems to be clear, it is wrong, and paññå should be very keen to realize this. The Path cannot be developed by the intention to know realities. The wrong practice can only be eradicated by the path-consciousness (magga-citta) of the sotåpanna, the person who attains the first stage of enlightenment.² Satipatthåna is not concentration or trying to focus on a specific reality. There are so many pittfalls by which we mistake for satipatthåna what is not satipatthåna. For example, we experience for a moment just sound, no other reality and then we believe that this is satipatthåna. However, akusala citta with attachment can also experience the paramattha dhamma that is sound. Acharn Sujin spoke about hardness that can be experienced by different types of citta. She said that we all notice when something hard impinges on the bodysense, that also a child can notice this. Body-consciousness experiences hardness, it is vipåkacitta, result of kamma, and this citta is not accompanied by awareness. After vipåkacitta has fallen away, akusala cittas may arise. One may fix one¹s attention on a paramattha dhamma such as hardness with lobha, but that is not satipatthåna. Or there may be a moment of sati and then quickly after that there is again lobha trying to hold on to the object. Cittas arise and pass away so fast. Paññå must be very keen to discern all those different moments. We are likely to have many misconceptions of what sati is. We forget that sati falls away in splitseconds, just like all other conditioned realities. Do we believe that sati does not fall away and, while it is lasting, that it can be aware now of this reality and then of that reality? We may have intellectual understanding of the fact that sati falls away immediately, but, unknowingly, we may still tend to hold on to sati as if it could last. We take sati for self and that is a hindrance to its arising. 11542 From: Lee Dillion Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] the long process of development Nina van Gorkom wrote: Hi Nina: Thank you for your thoughtful response. My comments are below in context. > >> The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to > >> be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna.> > > and > >> the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > >> it takes aeons. > > > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana takes, > > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I am > > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process comes > > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea come > > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? > > Nina: Dear Lee, here is one sutta I quoted from A. Sujin's Dhamma in > Cambodia: > > As has been explained by the Buddha, the knife handle will wear out as > someone holds it, but he does not know how much has been worn away each day. > Evenso a person does not know how much of the defilements has been worn away > each day. In the ³Kindred Sayings² (III, Khandhå-vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch 5, > §101, Adze-handle) the Buddha explained that the åsavas (defilements) can > only be destroyed if one realizes the true nature of the five khandhas, > their arising and falling away. But this cannot be achieved if one merely > wishes for the eradication but is neglectful in the development of the > factors of enlightenment. If one is attentive to the development of these > factors the åsavas will wear away. This makes sense from my own experience. > We read that the Buddha said 3 : > Just as if, monks, when a carpenter or carpenter¹s apprentice looks upon his > adze-handle and sees thereon his thumb-mark and his finger-marks he does not > thereby know: ³Thus and thus much of my adze-handle has been worn away > today, thus much yesterday, thus much at other times.² But he knows the > wearing away of it just by its wearing away. > Evenso, monks, the monk who dwells attentive to self-training has not this > knowledge: ²Thus and thus much of the åsavas has been worn away today, thus > much yesterday, and thus much at other times.² But he knows the wearing away > of them just by their wearing away.... Again, this is sensible and consistent with my own experience. > Try to hold a knife handle, it takes long for it to wear away. The handle > may be made from metal, not wood. And also, we may find out whether there is > already during our life now some wearing away of ignorance of seeing or of > hearing now, of clinging to the concept of self, of stinginess, envy, > conceit, etc. Is there still self who sees or is seeing just dhamma, not > self but the seeing that sees? And I do not mean understanding of this on > the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding, but on the level of > patipatti, direct understanding without naming, without using words. That > makes us think of how long the development of understanding is going to > take. Focusing on the length of time to wear away the adze is not what I took away from this sutta, though I agree it is one of the possible lessons. Instead of the length of time, I came away with the idea that we should not try to determine "Thus and thus much of my adze-handle has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, thus much at other times." Instead, we should abandon the process of mere wishing and be confident that by focusing on the development of "The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path" that our "fetters easily wither & rot away." It is a sutta that assures us that there is an end to the effluents and that we should get to our practice. The full sutta is at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html > Then in the Therigatha (P.T.S.) we read in Canto XII (and something similar > is repeated time and again for the different Theris) : "She too, having made > her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring > efficacy in this and that rebirth, was, when Vipassi was Buddha, reborn in a > clansman"s family. Come to years of discretion, because of the promise that > was in her, she waxed anxious at the prospect of rebirth. And, going to the > Bhikkhunís, heard the Dhamma, believed, and entered the Order. Perfect in > virtue, and learning the Three Pitakas, she became very learned in the > Dhamma and a teacher of it. The same destiny befell her under the five > succeeding Buddhas-Sikkhi, Vessabhu, Kakusandha, Konagamana, and Kassapa. > But because of her tendency to pride she was unable to root out the > defilements. So it came to pass, through the kamma of her pride, that, in > this Buddha era, she was reborn at Savatthi, in the household of > Anathapindika, the Treasurer, of a domestic slave. She became a sotapanna > after hearing the Discourse of the Lion's Roar.... > > We read that she later on attained arahatship. See, she was even a Dhamma > teacher, and that also during the time of five succeeding Buddhas. All over > the scriptures we find stories about former lives of disciples, and we read > that it took aeons before the goal was reached. We also read of people who spent eons and eons of acting in unskillful ways but in an instant were awakened. So I am not sure that the point is that it takes eons of practice, but rather that we will remain in eons of rebirths until we open up to the teachings of the dhamma. > During the time of the Buddha there were more people who could attain > enlightenment quickly even when hearing a few words, or after some more > explanation, and at this time this does not happen anymore. This is one of those statements that I am also curious about. I have never found such a claim in the suttas and the logic of it never has been apparent to me. In any event, I suppose the issue isn't overly important since, as the sutta we commented on above notes, if we devote ourselves to development our fetters will rot away. That I make progress is more important than speculating about the time for awakening. > No need for > discouragement, we can still hear the teachings and develop understanding. > But there is clinging to self if we think of my progress, or if we wonder: > how much progress did I make. I agree fully. > Eric does not like the idea of development during a long time. He mentioned > the tortoise and yoke with one hole ( M.III, no 129, and K.S. V, 457). > However, this is a different subject: the Buddha exhorted people not to > waste time being neglectful. Satipatthana may not arise often, but we can go > on considering and studying the teachings, applying what we learnt in daily > life, and developing dana, sila and bhavana. In India A. Sujin asked Kom to > speak about this sutta, in order to remind us all about this. When we have > confidence in the teachings there is no need to be afraid of an unhappy > rebirth. As to Eric's quote of the Satipatthana sutta, we have to keep in > mind to whom it was spoken. As I said, at that time there were still people > who could attain enlightenment quickly. Quickly, slowly, I don't know. To my simple way of seeing things, if the issue was that important, then the Buddha would have spoken clearly to the issue. For me personally, I see a repeated focus on two more important points. First, that I should not be overly concerned about the amount of progress I make at any one point in time and focus instead on the fact that any practice is a step in the right direction. Second, that I can either waste my time by wishing and hoping while my house burns down or I can get to doing something about my situation. This life or next or in a thousand lifetimes seems like useless speculation. > When we consider the amount of > ignorance and wrong view we still have, there is no reason to be over > optimistic. But, on the other hand, no reason either to be discouraged. We > should just be grateful to have the possibility to listen and to develop > understanding. I agree. > Best wishes from Nina. Thank you. You too. -- Lee Dillion 11543 From: Lucy Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm back! Dear all I'm back home now and slowly starting to catch up with past messages. Lots to read, will take me some time, the "other" list was very active : ) If I owe any of you a reply, please bear with me. I'm working my way backwards and eventually will get there...or not! Much to read...much to read.... Best wishes Lucy. 11544 From: Lucy Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah A from Sarah F Dear Sarah F and Christine I just read about your terrible ordeal, I'm so sorry for the tragedy that you both had to experience. Also impressed on how strong and wise you both are in the face of it all, thanks for sharing, it's a powerful teaching. As I have "M" leanings, I hope you don't mind if a candle is lit and some incense burnt on my home shrine for your departed friends. With much sympathy Lucy 11545 From: Lucy Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Hello Mike B Welcome! I'm so glad you joined - being also a relatively new-to-the-list-er myself. > I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of > mindful presence Well put. That's how I feel too... but stay on, there's a lot that can be applied here & now, you'll see. Don't let the scholarly detail deter you, just pick what is clear for you now and test it - at least that's how I cope. You can always go back to read the rest in the archives later. And don't be shy about asking questions - it also benefits many of us (the non-scholarly majority) to read answers to newcomers' questions. >. Many of us in the U.S. who are "lay" usually get some > watered down outline of the teachings and then are instructed in how > to sit and meditate. Not only in the US! That's my experience too (in the UK) - isn't cyberworld wonderful? Best wishes Lucy (working her way backwards through a few hundreds of messages) 11546 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Sarah and all, Just exploring thoughts from recent events ........ just wandering about in the scriptures. I like to know that the Buddha and the Arahants experienced and overcame the sort of things I experience, and I like to know how they dealt with these experiences. Not that the Buddha would react in any way similar to common everyday people........ I'm sure it will pass, but I now find myself faintly anxious when dear ones are a little late coming home or contacting, and I have never been like that before. And I thought, if Rahula had died before him, there may have been some specific teachings concerning attachment, fear, loss, vulnerability. (I had forgotten that Gautama left them on the day Rahula was born. Not actually an option for most of us.) I have found teachings like Bhaya-bherava Sutta [Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & terror in whatever state they come?]; The Dhajagga Sutt ['For when you recollect the Dhamma, monks, any fear, terror, or horripilation you may have will be abandoned.'] ;The Akankha Sutta [If a monk would wish, 'May I overcome fear & dread, and not be overcome by fear & dread. May I dwell having conquered any fear & dread that have arisen,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.]; the Abhaya Sutta "Fearless", [The Blessed One said: "Brahmin, there are those who, subject to death, are afraid & in terror of death. And there are those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death.]; And the Dhammapada 212-213 [From what's dear is born grief, from what's dear is born fear. For one freed from what's dear there's no grief -- so how fear? From what's loved is born grief, from what's loved is born fear. For one freed from what's loved there's no grief -- so how fear?] I have also been thinking about 'Time' and what exactly it is, and isn't....... And other things in the Useless Questions Box like 'If I had heard of the Teachings 25 years ago, would I/could I not have had children, and therefore, been less subject to fear and attachment?' Not worth answering I know - need to deal with what is, not what might have been. Quite untidy inside this head of mine. :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > > > Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and what > > eventually became of him? > > > > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the > household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first time > after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > permission. > > Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was declared > foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also features > in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses in the > Theragatha. > > I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't remember > anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta > commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and the > place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he never lay > on a bed". > > Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details to add. > > Sarah > ============================ > > > > 11547 From: tikmok Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Sarah, Adding possibly more inaccurate accounts ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:43 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter > > > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the > household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first time > after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > permission. I thought Buddha's father protested not because of Rahula but because of Buddha's half brother (???), Nanda, whom Buddha also pressed to become a Bikkhu. All three (Buddha, Rahula, and Nanda) are said to be fully adorned (and quite beautiful) with 32 Mahapurisa lakhana for if they hadn't become Bikhhus, each would have become a king of all kings. Rahula was known to: 1) be attached to his beautiful characteristics: there is a sutta (with explanation in the commentary) the Buddha encouraged him to see that form is impermanent. 2) develop anapana-sati 3) reached arahatship after he was ordained a Bikkhu, more than 13 years after he became a novice 4) have developed parami for over 100,000 kappas, just as Buddha's parents (to become his son, and his parents). 5) Taught by the Buddha when he was a novice to refrain from lying even when it is for entertainment (joking, teasing, etc.) kom --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > permission. > > Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was declared > foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also features > in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses in the > Theragatha. > > I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't remember > anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta > commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and the > place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he never lay > on a bed". > > Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details to add. > 11548 From: wangchuk37 Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:47pm Subject: March update to the Buddhist bibliography the March update to the Buddhist bibliography is now online at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/buddbib.html enjoy your reading ! Roger 11549 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:16pm Subject: RE: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Hi Kom, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html > That is a great sutta. And it also supports my point. Notice how stages of enlightenment are described qualitatively, not shrink wrapped into perfectly delineated independent factors of aggregates that confirm stages. > Even if we don't > understand why > the categorization, I think we should be study the > texts > carefully before making a decision that one > shouldn't be in > the same group as the other. No need for anyone to get upset. I'm not proposing we revise the tipitaka and make it the 3 vipallasas. All I'm saying is the 4th vipallasa is a derivative of the other 3, and doesn't really seem to belong in the group. For example, in the list: 1) coconut 2) soy bean 3) cilantro 4) coconut curried tofu and rice Which item seems out of place? If the commentators had come up with a list of second order vipallasas, separate from the primary 3, then that would make more sense to me. -fk 11550 From: Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm back! Welcome back, Lucy! With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/28/02 3:15:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, selene@c... writes: > Dear all > > I'm back home now and slowly starting to catch up with past messages. Lots > to read, will take me some time, the "other" list was very active : ) > > If I owe any of you a reply, please bear with me. I'm working my way > backwards and eventually will get there...or not! > > Much to read...much to read.... > > Best wishes > Lucy. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11551 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:35pm Subject: Partial credit? Re: The Foul and the Beautful Hi Sarah, Just want to clarify that I do find immense value in the vipallasa of "seeing the foul as beautiful".It's something I could use a lot of work on. I'm really quite adept at seeing "the foul in the foul". Do I get half credit for that? In fact, in this world, with it's maras, brahmas, humans, I see no being whose skill at seeing the negative aspects of every situation surpasses mine. I can find fault with anyone, any situation, anything. This is one of two superpowers that I have. The other superpower involves being able to eat tremendous amounts of food and clog up any toilet, or at the very least requiring a double flush. Unfortunately, these two super powers do not lead to the proper elimination of dukkha I'm looking for. I would gladly trade them for the superpower of knowledge of destruction of the taints. Apologies for my obnoxious insights. I find that near full moon days I tend to be even more obnoxious than usual. No wonder the term, lunatics. -fk p.s. I love this passage from Vsm you quoted: > the Vism (ch > X1) section on > ‘Perception of Repulsiveness in Nutriment’23, > knowing that you’ll > appreciate the earthy reminders;-): > > “..Hence the Ancients said: > > ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- > The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- > Go in all by a single door, > But by nine doors come oozing out. > > ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- > The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- > Men like to eat in company, > But to excrete in secrecy. > > ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- > The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- > These a man eats with high delight, > And then excretes with dumb disgust. > > ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- > The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- > A single night will be enough > To bring them to putridity’. 11552 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah A from Sarah F Dear Lucy, Thanks for your kind thoughts, words and actions. All very welcome and appreciated. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Sarah F and Christine > > I just read about your terrible ordeal, I'm so sorry for the tragedy that > you both had to experience. Also impressed on how strong and wise you both > are in the face of it all, thanks for sharing, it's a powerful teaching. As > I have "M" leanings, I hope you don't mind if a candle is lit and some > incense burnt on my home shrine for your departed friends. > > With much sympathy > > Lucy 11553 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Dear Mike B, --- mikebrotherto wrote:> Dear Sarah, > Thank you for responding so kindly. I can only speak for myself here > but I imagine there are many who mindfully read Dhammastudygroup's > posts but do not participate. I’m quite sure this is right (and know of a few of them). I’m also quite sure that many will be sharing your same impressions and appreciating your comments below: >For me, it is a bit intimidating > because > of the scholarly detail of most posts - the dissection of Pali, etc. > It's hard to participate because the jist of the discussions are so > cognitive and foreign to me at this time. Understood and I think Lucy made some very helpful comments in this respect.... it’s probably better to just go slowly and not try to follow every thread in the beginning. >In my first post, I was > insinuating that the "top ten or so" posters of Dhammastudygroup must > spend a lot of their day, well, posting. That, of course, is > presumptuous on my part and apologize if there was any offense. I don’t think this is presumptuous or offensive at all. I think it’s right that for some (like myself), dsg has become an integral part of daily life and a wonderful opportunity to consider the dhamma more with friends (old and new) with respect and consideration for different viewpoints. >My > sense is that there are a number of you who are academics and do this > for a livelihood. What a wonderful place to work with colleagues! Yes, it would be quite nice if this were one’s livelihood too.. ....the reality, however, is that I’m pretty sure that none of the ‘top ten posters’ do this for any kind of livelihood and we mostly have very busy lives and demanding other livelihoods to take care of;-) > Although I obtained a degree in Philopsophy of Religion many years > ago, I have always 'hung around' those who practice "awareness" more > than those who study the different connotations of a particular word. It may surprise you to know that I think we’re all in the same camp here. I don’t think anyone here is very interested in ‘different connotations of a particular word’ just for the sake of it or for an academic exercise. Take the Pali word ‘jhayanti’ that was being discussed by a few people yesterday; it makes quite a difference to how one’s ‘practice’ is understood if one thinks one is being told to develop jhana, to meditate (i.e. ‘sit) or to develop understanding of samatha and vipasana. So a few ‘key’ words will be considered in more detail. > Nina's last post India Ch 4, no. 4, is probably the most appropriate > response to my current point of view. ...Acharn Sujin"...However, we > should first study and understand what citta, cetasika and rupa are, > so that there are conditions for the arising of awareness. If someone > says that one should just be aware from the very beginning without > study of realities, without knowing about the conditions for sati, it > is wrong." > That pretty much sums up it up. I infer that if one only remains > aware, one will not be able to recognize dhamma when it arises, > because one doesn't know what one should be aware of. Exactly so. We hear many people talking about being aware, but if there is no understanding as to what the nature of awareness really is, what the objects of awareness are, or if it’s all being taken for ‘my awareness’, it may have little or no reference to the development of satipatthana. When A.Sujin encourages ‘study’, she is not just talking about book study, but the beginning to understand realities (directly) while reading, writing, sitting or working. >My point was > that it seems like there is a tremendous amount of "study" clock-time > on the site. When does one have time to sit and just be aware if one > is studying all the time? Hmm..Now we’re both clocking up some “study” on the site. Does this mean there cannot be any awareness now I wonder? Does it mean that we have to wait until we are no longer writing, reading, considering, seeing sights, hearing sounds? Does it mean there would be more awareness if we were sitting in another position, in another location, focussing on different objects? I think that only sati(awareness) and panna (understanding) can know... > I am sure that is not the case, though. > I find the cultural differences of approaching Buddhism quite > intriguing. Many of us in the U.S. who are "lay" usually get some > watered down outline of the teachings and then are instructed in how > to sit and meditate. The teachers that I know are concerned that no > one will participate if the cognitive part of understanding is > pressed > to the level found in dhammastudygroup. Personally, I love it and > study diligently. Most of my dhamma friends do not. I think we all have very different lifestyles, inclinations and interests. Sometimes I find I need a ‘break’ from dhamma texts, my livelihood work and other ‘cognitive’ processes. So I’ll go off for a walk or do some exercise but often find myself considering or even having a little awareness of dhammas even at these times. Sometimes it may just be considering a word or a phrase such as ‘ayatana’ (sense-field), but I find it more helpful than thinking about other subjects or concentrating on any particular object. You’ll find many different viewpoints here, but for a few of us, we consider any ‘practice’ should be very natural and not forced at all. >Anyway, if there > ever is an opportunity for me to participate meaningfully, I shall. You are already and it will be much appreciated by many. Glad you found us, Mike. I appreciate your comments and sincere interest here. Please feel very free to ask anything else;-) Sarah ========================================== 11554 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Erik's full moon postcard Dear Erik, --- rikpa21 wrote: > > > Why not just read what the Suttas say on it instead? :) > > > > I know..why not throw out the vinaya, the abhidhamma, the > commentaries and > > any discussion lists while we're at it?;-) > > That was not the point at all Sarah, and I think you know that :) ..... My apologies..it’s hard with all ‘my’ kilesa (defilements) not to tease you just a little;-) ..... > Because I have a bias toward the Sutta and Vinayana Pitakas as the > most authoritative sources of the Blessed One's instructions, for my > own edification I seek out FIRST the words of the Suttas, and if I > need any commentarial gloss, seek further cl;arification from these > secondary sources. > > The point is, and I think we can most of us agree, that the Suttas > represent the heart-essence of the Buddha's instrutions, some pithy > and difficult to interpret as they are. Nevertheless, when his > teachings are plainly spoken, spoken in a way that leaves little > room for further interpretation, such as the time necessary for the > cultivation of sati and jhana to the point of awakening, then I feel > it best to accept these as definitive, and see no need for recourse > to additional layers of hermeneutical gloss. ..... For others of us, however, the ‘commentarial gloss’ and the abhidhamma are all essential primary sources;-) For example, I referred to the lines which Sariputta heard (and which Num has kindly supplied): ********** "Vinaya, mahavagga rgd Ven Sariputta entered the stream. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html#saristream Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer: Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of Tathagata, the Great Contemplative. Then to Sariputta the Wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. " ********** We may read these lines and say it’s obvious that whatever arises, falls away, but this is just thinking. To actually understand the conditioned nature of phenomena, the arising and falling away of these phenomena and the truth about cessation (nirodha) requires considerable study of all kinds, consideration, and development of sati and panna tot he highest levels. ..... > > In fact, why not throw out the > > Khuddaka-nikaya (inc. Jatakas and Theri-Theragatha) and just read > specific > > Suttas?? > > This has worked for many historically, so, indeed, why not allow the > the Dhamma and Vinaya (and to the best of my recollection > comenatrial literature never made its appearance until the second > council--and that includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka, no matter its > fabled origins a la so many Mahayan Sutras) to serve as the guide? ..... I may have to continue with the series I was writing which showed (to my understanding) clearly that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and Khuddaka Nikaya were rehearsed at the first council and also much of the origin of the commentaries..but I’ll leave it for now, having taken note of your other comments;-) ..... > The Buddha makes the explicit statement (Maha Satipatthana Sutta) on > the appropriate development of the Four Frames of Reference: > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this > way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: > either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of > clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of > reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two > years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... > three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits > can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if > there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames > of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be > expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be > any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the > overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & > distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the > realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of > reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." ..... Nina and Num have already added their (useful) comments. I think we always have to consider the audience the Buddha was speaking to. When he addressed Rahula, what was spoken was different from when he addressed the people of Kalama. When he addressed the Kuru people with the Satipatthana Sutta, we have to consider whether we are like these exceptional people who had already attained very high levels of wholesomeness and didn’t listen to a Buddha by coincidence: ********** (from the Satipatthana Sutta commentary): “The inhabitants of the Kuru country -- bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, upasakas, upasikas -- by reason of their country being blessed with a perfect climate, and through their enjoyment of other comfortable conditions, were always healthy in body and in mind. They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings. Therefore, the Blessed One, perceiving their ability to appreciate this profound instruction, proclaimed to them this Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness, which is deep in meaning, having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahantship, in twenty-one places. For even as a man, having got a golden basket should fill it with divers flowers, or indeed having got a golden casket should fill it with precious jewels of the seven kinds, the Blessed One, having got a following of the Kuru-land people, dispensed, it is said, deep doctrine. Likewise, on that very account, there, in the Kurus, the Blessed One, taught other deep teachings: the Maha-nidana Sutta, Maha-satipatthana Sutta, Saropama Sutta, Rukkhupama Sutta, Ratthapala Sutta, Magandiya Sutta, and the Aneñjasappaya Sutta. “ ********** Questions: 1.Are we always ‘healthy in body and in mind’? 2.Do we really have the ‘power of knowledge’ and ‘capable of receiving deep teachings’? 3.Do we have the ‘ability to appreciate this profound instruction’? ********** “Further, in that territory of the Kuru people,[5] the four classes -- bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika -- generally by nature were earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with mindfulness. At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not heard. If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you practice?" and got the reply, "None at all," then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." ********** Further Questions: 1.Are we ‘generally by nature’ ‘earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness’ in ‘daily life’? 2.Do we speak ‘with mindfulness’ in our work? 3. Do we urge our friends, colleagues and neighbours in the ‘Arousing of Mindfulness’? ..... Well, our friends, colleagues and neighbours may not wish to be 'urged', but I think the point is that this was the general climate in which the Kurus lived. Like Nina said, there’s no need to be discouraged, but I think we have to be honest about our true accumulations and tendencies and as Lee expressed more clearly, to see the value of developing understanding now without thinking or minding about long or short time-frames. After all, isn’t there a difference between seeing the value in developing awareness now and thinking/wishing/hoping to become enlightened in this lifetime? ..... > To me any interpretation that does not lend itself to aroused > persistence, to dispassion not to entanglement, to shedding, not to > accumulating, to relinquishment, letting go, and above all the > confidence in the sage advice I find in the well-spoken words the > Buddha, I do not accept as Dhamma, Vinaya, or the Teacher's > instruction. (cf. the Gotami Sutta): > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-053.html ..... I think we agree here. ..... > Heh heh heh. Especially after last night's Full Moon Party on Ko Pha > Ngan (never thought I'd actually go to rave with all its attendant > Bacchanalian madness, but did, and found it quite the once-is-enough- > for-this-lifetime experience, so pardon my recent howling. :) Talk > about lunacy. In the very most literal sense of the word! :) I see you’ve moved from Koh Samui and with all our accumulated kilesa (defilements), we’d better never say ‘never’....Perhaps it’s encouraged you to to value our friendship by way of light relief;-) ..... > The spoon is in the pot Sarah, no worries! And I hope you like hot > chilis in your soup! :) ..... Oh no.....when Erik starts adding chilis, I’m really likely to come out in a big sweat;-) Glad to hear from you as (nearly) always;-) Sarah ====================================================== 11555 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 Thank you Erik. Your focus on the goal is inspiring. Robert --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Lee Dillion wrote: > > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > In your post, you note the following: > > > > > The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because > there have to > > > be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of > satipatthåna. > > > > and > > > > > the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > > > it takes aeons. > > > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of > satipatthana takes, > > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, > but I am > > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual > process comes > > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this > idea come > > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? > > Well, in the spirit of "evam me suttam," all I can add is: > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this > way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: > either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of > clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of > reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two > years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... > three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits > can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if > there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames > of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be > expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be > any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return." > > So this should make pretty clear, from the words attributed to the > Buddha (in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta), how long Satipatthana takes > to develop for those whio diligently put the teachings into direct > and unremitting daily practice. > > As volitional beings, we are of course free to believe that the moon > is made of green cheese, or that satipatthana takes aeons to > develop. Which is an idea I can't help but think rings of lack of > saddha, or lack of confidence in the Buddha's teachings--to these > ears anyway. > > The alternative to this would to me is to place enough confidence in > the teachings of the Buddha on Satipatthana to actually put the four > foundations (all four, not one, or a subset of one, or a personal > interpretation of a subset of one) into direct practice, without any > excuses or eel-wriggling on what the practices and training actually > entail, given they're spelled out in sufficient detail to begin a > plan of action under the guidance of a kalyanamitrata who's gone > that way before (simply consider the case of Angulimala). > > So, at least according to the most reliable record we have of what > the Blessed One taught, if the instructions are practiced rightly, > they can indeed serve as the conditions to bring wisdom to fruition > very quickly. And this has been historically true for many, not just > for a few. > > The alternative (believing it's too dificult or "out of reach") is > too unpleasant to entertain, simply considering the Buddha's > observations that all the tears we've cried throughout our countless > lifetimes up until now would be benough to fill all the world's > oceans, or the bones of the corpses we've left behind are greater in > height and girth than Mount Meru, or that the odds of ever finding a > precious human birh in which we have the opportunity to hear the > Dhamma is so rare that to let this life pass without doing the > utmost to break free HERE AND NOW, IN THIS LIFETIME, is just too > ugly to contemplate. For me, anyway. 11556 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Robert K., If anyone ever doubted your scholarliness, this post should put an end to any hesitation. I am very impressed by the understanding of both philosophy and Pali you display, quite a bit beyond my ability to really coherently take in. Yet, I get some of your points, particularly on the variety of translations that are possible. I am a little confused on where the reference to developing both 'samatha and vipassana' comes in; and to the variety of possibilities for translating "Jhaayatha", as meditating, practicing jhanas, contemplating various objects including Suttas?, etc. Is there a generally accepted translation for Jhaayatha, or is it really this open to interpretation? Are there any references in the Pali canon that *explicitly* refer to the Jhanas, Dhyana, Samadhis, Samatha and Vipassana, in a direct enough way that there is no doubt with regard to the Buddha's meaning and how to translate the Pali terms? Woudl be interesting to know. Meanwhile, I will wait until the rest of what you said stops spinning around in my head, and hope that something that resembles understanding eventually forms there. Best, Robert Ep. ================================== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > . ""Over there are the roots of trees; over > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. > Don't > > later fall into regret. This is our message to you.""" > > > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is > unnecessary, I wonder > > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > >++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Rob E. > I was impressed with your post to Nina today. > Glad you brought this sutta up, as there are several like it in the > Tipitaka. I think it is one of those phrases that need a little > explication. > The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical phrase: > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i > 118 (MN > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa". > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195 > (there's a bit more just before this) > Jim: > >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > >> that it does not > >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both > >> samatha and > >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > >> better translation than > >> 'Practice jhana'. > > "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha ending. > In the > PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the -ti > ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will > find two > entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, > contemplate, > think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to > burn, to > be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the > commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa" > in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that > helps to > clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate > (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation > (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according > to > anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." -- > MA i > 195." end of section by Jim Anderson. > ----------- > When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to > know that there are two types. > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." (same > pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above. > The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > meditative absorptions" > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on > one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or > Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote > > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the > actual > characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to > the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. > THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says > "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of > ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the > mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider > the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of > the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the > pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that > the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the > causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the > cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote > best wishes > robert > 11557 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] automatic Hi, A few thoughts on Rob's and Howard's posts on volition: 1/ There is clearly some kind of volition, as we are not rocks. 2/ It's clear to me that volition acts within and based on conditions and events that are codependently originated. There is no escape from cause and effect. Someone famous once said: "Freedom is not freedom from conditions; freedom is freedom towards conditions." In other words, based on all that has occurred and within the influences of what has occurred, one still makes a choice. 3/ What makes something volition or not is whether, even within arising conditions, there is any choice to be made, or whether it is *all* determined by conditions, down to the last hangnail, or split end of reality. Or does the factor of awareness or mindfulness, the ability that humans have to reflect and take things into account, have any space beyond pure domino-like causation. Rob K. tried to explain the complexity of this mechanism, and I will say quite happily that it is beyond me to even imagine how there can be true volition unless there is some sort of factor that is uncaused making choices. This sounds like a form of atta, or else it is an uncaused principle totally beyond any personal volition, and so is impersonal volition. What that might mean is also beyond my comprehension at the moment. So there you go! My conclusion is that this is the most complicated topic, because even defining volition is prolematic, in the absence of a concept of a defineable self living within and amidst the kandhas. Since we admit of no such self -- and it is pretty clear to me at least intellecutally that there isn't one -- it is even harder to imagine where the volition, if any, would reside. And yet, there is a quality in human experience that seems to me to be volitional and not merely reflection of pure cause and effect. Maybe just another illusion. Maybe not. Best, Robert Ep. =========================== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Group, > Sorry for some more cross-posting. I posted the letter I wrote to > Rob. E. to another list and someone replied. Howard gave such a > profound reply to this that I thought you'd like to read it. > > >Dear Robert, > I try to condense in some words: > > (correct me if I am wrong) > >Whatever happens right now > > is the result of past << conditions >> > >Man has no volition, intention, > > free will, initiative at all ! > > What appear as volition (cetana) intention, free will, initiative > are also already << conditioned >> > > by past conditions ! > > ______________ > In dhamma-list@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, ... > No, there IS volition. And it is "free", unless what one means by > 'free' is being uncaused. Of course we do act volitionally all the > time. But > that volition is formed (sankhata) by numerous conditions, among > which are > our predispositions accumulated over many lifetimes. Our volition > expresses > our inclinations. In fact that is what makes our volition seem > personal, what > makes it "our" volition. Would you feel "freer" if volition were > random? (Of > course, nothing is random, and, also, it is an error to truly think > of > volition as personal even though it is conditioned by our > predispositions, > because "our" predispositions are also impersonal.) > It's a funny business how we think about willing. On the one > hand we > want it to be completely free, which really means we don't want it to > be the > result of conditions, but on the other hand we want it to be "our" > volition, > for otherwise we feel that we lack free will and are helpless slaves. > We want > our cake and to eat it as well. But the way things are is as they > are. We > need to forget about what we would *like* things to be, and, instead, > come to > see clearly how they actually are. With metta, > Howard > > 11558 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:50pm Subject: Ayatanas revisited Dear Nina, Num and Rob K, You’ve inspired me to consider a little more on ayatanas and i've been following some of your references. (Details can be found for others in Visuddhimagga, ch XV: The Bases and Elements ) ********** (Vis 1)“The bases are the twelve bases, that is to say, the eye-base, visible-data base, ear base, sound base, nose base, odour base, tongue base, flavour base, body base, tangible-data bae, mind base, mental-data base.” (5)“Furthermore, ‘base, (ayatana) should be understood in the sense of abode, store (mine), meeting-place, locality of birth, and cause.’”(Vism XV,5) ********** When we read about ayatanas, I understand it is the importance of the meeting point of the various phenomena that is being stressed. Hence when there is the meeting of visible object, eye base and seeing consciousness, they are actuated (aayananti) and so on. I think they help us to understand that this moment is conditioned in a split-second and then passes away. We learn more about the conditioned nature of all realities: ********** (15) “As to how to be seen: here all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. for they do not come from anywhere prior to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence , and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery (being exercisable over them) since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between past and the future. Hence they should be regarded a having no provenance and no destination. ‘Likewise they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested. for it does not occur to the eye and the visible datum, etc, ‘Ah, that consciousness might arise from our concurrence’. And as door, physical basis, and object, they have no curiosity about, or interest in, arousing consciousness. On the contrary, it is the absolute rule that the eye-consciousness, etc, come into being with the union of the eye with visible datum, and so on. So they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested. ‘Furthermore, the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingness, pleasure, and self; and the external ones ass village-raiding robbers (S.iv,175) because they raid the internal ones. and this is said: ‘Bhikkhus, the eye is harassed by agreeable and disagreeable visible objects’ (S.iv,175). Furthermore, the internal ones should be regarded as like the six creatures (S.iv, 198-99) and the external ones as like their resorts....’“ ********** These same quotes are given in the Dispeller of Delusion. However, Frank will find it of interest, that in the Dispeller translation it says ‘the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingness, beauty, pleasure and self...’ (note the inclusion of beauty). ..... I was interested to read the Sam Nikaya references which I think Christine will appreciate(1V, 238 The Vipers). ********** We read about a man’s adventure facing four deadly vipers, five murderous enemies,an even more scary sixth murderer, village-attacking dacoits and a great expanse of water to be crossed with no ferry or boat: “’The four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom’: this is a designation for the four great elements...... ‘The five murderous enemies’: this is a desgnation for the five aggregates ubject to clinging...... ‘The sixth murderer, the intimate companion with drawn sword’: this is a desgnation for delight and lust. ‘The empty village’: this is a designation for the six internal sense bases. If bhikkhus, a wise, competent, intelligent person examines them by way of the eye, they appear to be void, hollow, empty....by way of the ear....by way of the mind.... ‘Village-attacking dacoits’: this is a designation for the six external sense bases. The eye, bhikkhus, is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable forms, the ear..The nose...The tongue...The body..The mind is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena. ‘The great expanse of water’: this is a designation for the four floods; the flood of sensulality, the flood of existence, the flood of views, and the flood of ignorance. ‘The near shore, which is dangerous and fearful’: this is a designation for identity. ‘The further shore, which is safe and free from danger’: this is a designation for Nibbana. ‘The raft': this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is right view....right concentration. ‘Making effort with hands and feet’: this is a desgnation for the arousing of energy. ‘Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground’: this is a designation for the arahant.” ********** I asked about a few points when we were in Bangkok that you’d all been discussing. As I recollect, the ayatanas help us understand how this moment is conditioned ‘in a split second’ and passes away.. We cannot say that ayatanas are another way of classifying namas and rupas. Mind base refers to all cittas, including lokuttara and all bhavanga cittas strictly speaking. However, manayatana ‘doesn’t usually refer to bhavanga cittas because ‘who knows these?’’ Cetasikas are classified as external mind objects (dhammayatana), but not pannatti (concepts) which of course are not real. We can only talk about eyebase (cakkayatana) at this moment of seeing (cakkhuvinnana) and other experiences through this doorway.It is only at this meeting (as we read in the Vism quote above) that eye sense and visible object have sabhava. Num, most of the detail on ayatana in the Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodani) is included in the Visuddhimagga. This includes the paragraph which I think you asked to be quoted in full. It can be found (identical, from a quick look) at Vism XV, 14 and includes these two sentences: ********** “...And the mind base, when classified according to profitable, unprofitable, resultant, and functional consciousness, is of eighty-nine inds or of one hundred and twenty-one kinds, but it is of infinite variety when classified according to physical basis, progress, and so on. The visible data, sound, odour and flavour bases are of infinite variety when classified according to sissimilarity, condition, and so on....” ********** This really reminds me of the complexity of conditions and the infinite variety of resulting phenomena. Categories and numbers are only used to help us understand these phenomena better, I think. Let me add one more quote: ********** Sam Nik 1V, 19 Delight “Bhikkhus, one who seeks delight in the eye seks delight in suffering. One who seeks delight in suffering, I say, is not free from suffering. One who seeks delight in the ear..in the nose..in the tongue..in the body...in the mind eeks delight in suffering. One who seeks delight in suffering, I say, is not freed from suffering. One who does not seek delight in the eye...in the mind does not seek delight in suffering. One who does not seek delight in suffering, I say, is freed from suffering.” 20 Delight 2 (The same for the six external sense bases). ********** Thanks for the chance to consider a little more. Sarah ========================================= 11559 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 1:13am Subject: Division into two of Anatta - Useful Posts Dear All, I am really benefiting from the Anatta Useful Posts being divided into Anatta(not self) and Anatta - No Control? Thank you to those who put the effort into this task. Much appreciated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts metta, Christine 11560 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Mike B Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for your comments. Just a thought to take with you on your retreat. --- mikebrotherto wrote: > I will have the honor of being in retreat with Bhante Gunaratana next > week in St. Louis, Missouri. In May, another 10 day retreat with > Matthew Flickstein.I vow to remain present as much as possible in this > lifetime. Who knows? The Buddha’s description of ‘remaining present’ involves, as appears in the passage quoted recently by Nina, the *awareness or understanding of a present dhamma*. This should not be taken as precluding the *thinking about* the past or the future, to my understanding. Such thinking is the ‘present dhamma’ of the moment it occurs and can be the object of awareness or understanding. I believe that even the arahant conceptualises about the past and the future, and must do so constantly in order to relate to the world at large. But he/she does so without, in the words of the passage, ‘following after’ the past or ‘desiring’ the future. Even for us worldlings, there can be momentary absence of such following after or desiring whenever there is awareness or understanding of a present dhamma. Jon Bhaddekaratta Sutta of Lomasakaògiya “The past should not be followed after, the future not desired. What is past is got rid of and the future has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there of a present dhamma, The unmovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it.” 11561 From: egberdina Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 4:13am Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured tradition. The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup institution. And what fruit does this bear? Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > . ""Over there are the roots of trees; over > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. > Don't > > later fall into regret. This is our message to you.""" > > > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is > unnecessary, I wonder > > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > >++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Rob E. > I was impressed with your post to Nina today. > Glad you brought this sutta up, as there are several like it in the > Tipitaka. I think it is one of those phrases that need a little > explication. > The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical phrase: > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i > 118 (MN > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa". > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195 > (there's a bit more just before this) > Jim: > >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > >> that it does not > >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both > >> samatha and > >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > >> better translation than > >> 'Practice jhana'. > > "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha ending. > In the > PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the - ti > ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will > find two > entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, > contemplate, > think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to > burn, to > be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the > commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa" > in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that > helps to > clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate > (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation > (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according > to > anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." - - > MA i > 195." end of section by Jim Anderson. > ----------- > When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to > know that there are two types. > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." (same > pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above. > The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > meditative absorptions" > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on > one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or > Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote > > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the > actual > characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to > the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. > THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says > "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of > ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the > mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider > the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of > the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the > pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that > the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the > causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the > cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote > best wishes > robert 11562 From: Yulia Klimov Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Christine Thank you for this post from the bottom of my heart. This is exactly what I am feeling today, thank you for putting it in such easy words. Love, Yulia -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:14 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Sarah and all, Just exploring thoughts from recent events ........ just wandering about in the scriptures. I like to know that the Buddha and the Arahants experienced and overcame the sort of things I experience, and I like to know how they dealt with these experiences. Not that the Buddha would react in any way similar to common everyday people........ I'm sure it will pass, but I now find myself faintly anxious when dear ones are a little late coming home or contacting, and I have never been like that before. And I thought, if Rahula had died before him, there may have been some specific teachings concerning attachment, fear, loss, vulnerability. (I had forgotten that Gautama left them on the day Rahula was born. Not actually an option for most of us.) I have found teachings like Bhaya-bherava Sutta [Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & terror in whatever state they come?]; The Dhajagga Sutt ['For when you recollect the Dhamma, monks, any fear, terror, or horripilation you may have will be abandoned.'] ;The Akankha Sutta [If a monk would wish, 'May I overcome fear & dread, and not be overcome by fear & dread. May I dwell having conquered any fear & dread that have arisen,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.]; the Abhaya Sutta "Fearless", [The Blessed One said: "Brahmin, there are those who, subject to death, are afraid & in terror of death. And there are those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death.]; And the Dhammapada 212-213 [From what's dear is born grief, from what's dear is born fear. For one freed from what's dear there's no grief -- so how fear? From what's loved is born grief, from what's loved is born fear. For one freed from what's loved there's no grief -- so how fear?] I have also been thinking about 'Time' and what exactly it is, and isn't....... And other things in the Useless Questions Box like 'If I had heard of the Teachings 25 years ago, would I/could I not have had children, and therefore, been less subject to fear and attachment?' Not worth answering I know - need to deal with what is, not what might have been. Quite untidy inside this head of mine. :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > > > Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and what > > eventually became of him? > > > > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the > household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first time > after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > permission. > > Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was declared > foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also features > in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses in the > Theragatha. > > I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't remember > anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta > commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and the > place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he never lay > on a bed". > > Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details to add. > > Sarah > ============================ 11563 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 10:00am Subject: India Ch 5, no. 3 India Ch 5, no 3 Listening to the Dhamma and considering what we heard can condition the arising of sati. It depends on someone¹s accumulated inclinations how deeply he will consider what he hears. Nobody can control the arising of mindfulness, it all depends on the accumulated conditions for it. Nobody can control the object of mindfulness either. As we were often reminded: nobody can choose to see, nobody can choose to hear, nobody can choose to have sati, these realities arise when there are the right conditions. We may try to have conditions as a support for paññå but this is motivated by clinging to the concept of self. Acharn Sujin stressed that we need more understanding of the truth of non-self as a firm foundation that can condition the arising of right awareness. She said: ³When a characteristic of a reality appears, do we just remember the name of that reality, or is there sati arising because of its own conditions? A reality such as seeing may appear, but it appears for a very short time, and then it falls away. Sati arises for a very short moment and then it falls away. Sati that is aware without trying to focus on a reality is right awareness. But the clinging to the concept of self comes in between all the time. It is very difficult to become detached from it. Gradually we can become familiar with the different characteristics that appear.² Acharn Sujin explained many times how important it is to be sincere as to one's own development. We should realize when there is satipatthåna and when there is not, we should realize what we understand already and what not yet. She stressed that it is the task of sati to be mindful of realities, not our task. If we deeply consider this, we shall be less inclined to think of sati with attachment, or to try to induce sati. By listening to the Dhamma and considering what we hear, right understanding of the way to develop satipatthåna grows, and thus, conditions are gradually accumulated for the arising of sati of satipatthåna. When sati of satipatthåna arises and is aware of a characteristic, paññå can understand what sati is and in this way the difference can be discerned between the moment that there is sati and the moment that there is forgetfulness of realities. When sati is mindful of a reality, paññå, understanding of that characteristic, can gradually develop. Acharn Sujin reminded us many times that we should have no expectations with regard to the arising of sati and paññå: ³One can live happily with regard to the development of understanding, and this can be very natural. If there is very little paññå, one sees one¹s own accumulations and one knows that one cannot have what has not been accumulated. Someone may dislike his accumulations, but if there is more understanding he can take life easy. When paññå arises there are no expectations, the function of paññå is detachment. If there is not enough understanding and there is desire for sati and paññå, they cannot arise. We should know, if there is interest to listen, that it is not self who has an interest, but that it arises because of conditions.² 11564 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Num's life and study op 27-02-2002 20:17 schreef michael newton op newtonmichael@h...: >> Hello!Nina; > I see at the end of this email you wrote that you have a MAC.So do I,I have > a MACIBOOK,and I truly love it, > .Can I drop out of your > group from Hotmail-while keeping > your dhammastudygroup connection on my Yahoo.account?Think,if I could do > this-it would make my life > a little easier.Don't know,Nina,whether you or Sarah,know anything of > this,but since many members,will > see this-maybe there is a member of this group,who is knowlegible,that could > guide me.Tried to do it > on my own,no sucess. Dear Michael, I am so bad at technical things, sorry I would not know. You could ask the help desk of your provider. Nina 11565 From: tikmok Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 10:39am Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Herman, Please allow me to contribute my opinion here... Let me forwarn: long, like usual. > -----Original Message----- > From: egberdina [mailto:hhofman@d...] > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:14 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma > > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > tradition. > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > Herman Words can be very helpful. The tipitakas have tons of words that help us understand the different realities that are rising now. It's mind boggling to see how many different ways the tipitaka describes the word panna (wisdom), also a wordless state. It's not a question of how many words there are: it is the question of why we read/listen to the words for, and why we use those many words. Words are two-sided blades: they cut either way. I am not sure if I am right to assume that you latter statement (Dissuading...) refers to Robert K's post. However, it does seem to me that his discussion is along the line of the former statement (Discussing jhana...). Regarding to the sentiment that dissuading people from the practice of Jhana is a DSG instituition, let me offer an explanation from someone who have asked a similar question. Possible reasons why some people in DSG seem to disuade people from Jhana: 1) Satipathana (knowing realities as they are) is the path to nibanna. Even if you develop Jhana, you would have to develop satipatthana to reach nibbana. There is no dispute (even within DSG!) about this point as far as I know. 2) As nibbana attainment is the highest fruit of the Buddha's teaching, it is of paramount importance for a beginner (like I am) to first learn what Satipatthana is, and what realities are. Learning about this is already overwhelming to some of us. 3) Beyond studying realities and satipathana, it is important to develop all kinds of kusala (wholesome deeds, words, and thoughts) knowing that without these development, reaching nibbana is impossible. I believe the Buddha taught that all kusala states (for the right reasons) are supportive of reaching nibbana. Jhana, as a kusala state, clearly falls within this parameter. 4) Developing other kusala states (besides Jhana) can happen for everybody, in their everyday life, regardless of what life they take (householder or a monk), and what their accumulations are. Learning about other kinds of kusala states that are very natural in our daily life as a householder are already surprisingly intricate and detailed. Before learning about Buddhism, did you know that the joy that rises after seeing other people doing good deeds can be wholesome states? 5) Jhana is said to be a kuru-kamma (a heavy kamma that if retained just before death, it will give results immediately in the next life) that gives result for a long time (at least 1 kappa, in the first rupa plane). Because of this, it is extremely hard to develop, and only few people with the right accumulations can develop this. 6) Learning how to develop Jhana is most likely to be as intricate as learning about satipathana and about realities conceptually. How many people in DSG truly devote their time to learning about the intiricacies of Jhana? As far as I can tell, none of the people that you may think of (certainly, people I think of) as DSG institution devote their time to doing this. 7) The texts say this about Jhana: a) Have 10 obstacles (pari-potha), versus just 1 for satipathana b) Extremely hard to maintain c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly see faults in the 5 sensualities. 8) Getting more controversial: a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to overcome with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 sensualities. b) Having just one strong desire will force you to start over from the beginning. How many Jatakas about Bodhisatta that you have seen where the bodhisatta lost all his Jhana attainment because he saw a beautiful woman? Are you married? Are you engaged in sexual relationship? Now, the probability of the attainment is becoming less and less. c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to attenuate, very substantially, the seeking / exposures to the 5 sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the mediation offers "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely to be the "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism at the minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with nibbana being the highest peace. 9) Really controversial: a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing Jhana are deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala states and states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take anapanasati for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you are like me, the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala or akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop Jhana through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, development through compassion (karuna). Pick you kid. When you do something for your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because of the attachment you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion you have for him. Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was given is that if you equivalently treat other people (not the one you know or like) in the same situation, it is likely to be compassion. Without being able to tell the difference between kusala and akusala state, you can't develop this to the level of total absorption. b) Jhana attainment is not neccessary to attain the path. The tipitaka mentioned instances of Ariyans without Jhana attainments. c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing this, the wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. Some people think that panna at the patti-patti (practice) level can only become sharper because there are development of panna (about realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one might attain via tranquil meditation. 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to the level of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total absorption). I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to be a institutional discouragement only because: I) Priority of learning II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. III) Unclear if needed for path attainment. kom 11566 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 11:29am Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Hello Kom and all, I am interested to know how people understand the following discourse. Regards, Victor Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 Suda Sutta The Cook Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "Suppose that there is a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook who has presented a king or a king's minister with various kinds of curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly sweet, alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He does not take note of (lit: pick up on the theme of) his master, thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry, or he praises that curry. Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet curry... alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today my master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty curry, or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty curry.' As a result, he is not rewarded with clothing or wages or gifts. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook does not pick up on the theme of his own master. "In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in & of itself, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements [Comm: the five Hindrances] are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact (does not pick up on that theme). He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk does not take note of his own mind (does not pick up on the theme of his own mind). "Now suppose that there is a wise, experienced, skillful cook who has presented a king or a king's minister with various kinds of curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly sweet, alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He takes note of his master, thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry or he praises that curry. Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet curry... alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today my master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty curry, or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty curry.' As a result, he is rewarded with clothing, wages, & gifts. Why is that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful cook picks up on the theme of his own master. "In the same way, there are cases where a wise, experienced, skillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself... feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that fact. As a result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, together with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful monk picks up on the theme of his own mind." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn47-008.html --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "tikmok" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Please allow me to contribute my opinion here... Let me forwarn: long, > like usual. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: egberdina [mailto:hhofman@d...] > > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:14 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma > > > > > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > > tradition. > > > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative > > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > > > Herman > > Words can be very helpful. The tipitakas have tons of words that help > us understand the different realities that are rising now. It's mind > boggling to see how many different ways the tipitaka describes the word > ----- (wisdom), also a wordless state. It's not a question of how many > words there are: it is the question of why we read/listen to the words > for, and why we use those many words. Words are two-sided blades: > they cut either way. > > I am not sure if I am right to assume that you latter statement > (Dissuading...) refers to Robert K's post. However, it does seem to me > that his discussion is along the line of the former statement (Discussing > jhana...). > > Regarding to the sentiment that dissuading people from the practice of > Jhana is a DSG instituition, let me offer an explanation from someone > who have asked a similar question. > > Possible reasons why some people in DSG seem to disuade people from > Jhana: > > 1) Satipathana (knowing realities as they are) is the path to nibanna. > Even if you develop Jhana, you would have to develop satipatthana to > reach nibbana. There is no dispute (even within DSG!) about this point > as far as I know. > > 2) As nibbana attainment is the highest fruit of the Buddha's teaching, it > is of paramount importance for a beginner (like I am) to first learn what > Satipatthana is, and what realities are. Learning about this is already > overwhelming to some of us. > > 3) Beyond studying realities and satipathana, it is important to develop > all kinds of kusala (wholesome deeds, words, and thoughts) knowing > that without these development, reaching nibbana is impossible. I > believe the Buddha taught that all kusala states (for the right reasons) > are supportive of reaching nibbana. Jhana, as a kusala state, clearly > falls within this parameter. > > 4) Developing other kusala states (besides Jhana) can happen for > everybody, in their everyday life, regardless of what life they take > (householder or a monk), and what their accumulations are. Learning > about other kinds of kusala states that are very natural in our daily life > as a householder are already surprisingly intricate and detailed. Before > learning about Buddhism, did you know that the joy that rises after > seeing other people doing good deeds can be wholesome states? > > 5) Jhana is said to be a kuru-kamma (a heavy kamma that if retained > just before death, it will give results immediately in the next life) that > gives result for a long time (at least 1 kappa, in the first rupa plane). > Because of this, it is extremely hard to develop, and only few people > with the right accumulations can develop this. > > 6) Learning how to develop Jhana is most likely to be as intricate as > learning about satipathana and about realities conceptually. How many > people in DSG truly devote their time to learning about the intiricacies of > Jhana? As far as I can tell, none of the people that you may think of > (certainly, people I think of) as DSG institution devote their time to doing > this. > > 7) The texts say this about Jhana: > a) Have 10 obstacles (pari-potha), versus just 1 for > satipathana > b) Extremely hard to maintain > c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly > see faults in the 5 sensualities. > > 8) Getting more controversial: > a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to > overcome with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 > sensualities. > b) Having just one strong desire will force you to start over > from the beginning. How many Jatakas about Bodhisatta that you have > seen where the bodhisatta lost all his Jhana attainment because he saw > a beautiful woman? Are you married? Are you engaged in sexual > relationship? Now, the probability of the attainment is becoming less > and less. > c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to > attenuate, very substantially, the seeking / exposures to the 5 > sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? > d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the > mediation offers "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely > to be the "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism > at the minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with > nibbana being the highest peace. > > 9) Really controversial: > a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing > Jhana are deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala > states and states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take > anapanasati for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you > are like me, the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala > or akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop Jhana > through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, development > through compassion (karuna). Pick you kid. When you do something for > your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because of the attachment > you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion you have for him. > Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was given is that if you > equivalently treat other people (not the one you know or like) in the > same situation, it is likely to be compassion. Without being able to tell > the difference between kusala and akusala state, you can't develop this > to the level of total absorption. > b) Jhana attainment is not neccessary to attain the path. The > tipitaka mentioned instances of Ariyans without Jhana attainments. > c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing > this, the wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. > Some people think that ----- at the patti-patti (practice) level can only > become sharper because there are development of ----- (about > realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one might attain > via tranquil meditation. > > 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: > Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to > the level of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total > absorption). > > I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to be a > institutional discouragement only because: > I) Priority of learning > II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. > III) Unclear if needed for path attainment. > > kom 11567 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 11:38am Subject: Concentration Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 Samadhi Sutta Concentration Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Tue 18 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html 11568 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 11:42am Subject: Prerequisites Samyutta Nikaya XII.23 Upanisa Sutta Prerequisites Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in this way. "The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is the prerequisite for the knowledge of ending? Release, it should be said. Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present... Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite? Ignorance, it should be said. "Thus fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite. "Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. When the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little ponds. When the little ponds are full, they fill the big lakes. When the big lakes are full, they fill the little rivers. When the little rivers are full, they fill the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean. In the same way: "Fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as their prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html 11569 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 11:45am Subject: An Analysis of the Path Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta An Analysis of the Path Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. There he addressed the monks, saying, "Monks." "Yes, lord," the monks responded to him. The Blessed One said, "I will teach & analyze for you the Noble Eightfold Path. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded to him. The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view. "And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech. "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from sexual intercourse: This, monks, is called right action. "And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood. "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort. "And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness. "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, one-pointedness of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45.8.html 11570 From: Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:44am Subject: RE: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Hi Christine, Kom and Sarah I cut and pasted from the suttas that are available on the web. I read them in Thai before, the discourse is pretty uplifting. I have never read about what happened to Rahula at the end. This part is from Vinayapitaka. Mahavagga, mahakhandhaka. This happened during the Buddha visiting his father in Kapilavatsu. (Kom, I think the Buddha's father asked Buddha to lay down a rule not to accept anyone into ordination without parental permission b/c of ordination of Rahula.) I think the Buddha gave Rahula the best thing he can give, an ariya-asset. I cut and pasted this from http://metta.lk/tipitaka/. (Sorry, I cannot just put the hyperlink here, b/c it will come up with the whole vagga, that's very long.) << -- And in the forenoon the Blessed One, having put on His robes, took His alms-bowl and with His civara on went to the residence of the Sakka Suddhodana (His father). Having gone there, He sat down on a seat laid out for Him. Then the princess, who was the mother of Ràhula said to young Ràhula: `This is your father, Ràhula; go and ask Him for your inheritance.' Then young Ràhula went to the place where the Blessed One was; having approached Him, he stationed himself before the Blessed One (and said): your shadow, samaõa, is a place of bliss.' Then the Blessed One rose from His seat and went away, and young Ràhula followed the Blessed One from behind and said: `Give me my inheritance, samana; give me my inheritance, samana.' Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Sàriputta: `Well, Sàriputta, confer the pabbajjà ordination on young Ràhula.' ---- ---Then the Sakka Suddhodana went to the place where the Blessed One ---- --- Lord, when the Blessed One gave up the world, it was a great pain to me; so it was when Nanda did the same; my pain was excessive when Ràhula too did so. The love for a son, Lord, cuts into the skin; having cut into the skin, it cuts into the hide; having cut into the hide, it cuts into the flesh . . . the ligaments . . . the bones; having cut into the bones, it reaches the marrow and dwells in the marrow. Pray, Lord, let their reverences not confer the pabbajjà ordination on a son without his father's and mother's permission.' `Let no son, O bhikkhus, receive the pabbajjà ordination without his father's and mother's permission. He who confers the pabbajjà ordination (on a son without that permission), is guilty of a dukkaña offence.-- >> Later on (I do not know how long) the Buddha taught his son, Rahula, with his metta, patience and his kindness. The teaching is very in detail about 3 gateways of kamma: bodily, verbal and mental conduct. (Not to do any lying is in here) http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/061-amba latthika-rahulovada-e1.htm <<-- Rahula, what is the purpose of a mirror?' 'Venerable sir, for the purpose of reflection.' 'Rahula in the same manner reflecting you should do bodily actions, reflecting you should do verbal actions, reflecting you should do mental actions-- >> Later, the Buddha taught Ven. Rahula about 4 ariyascca and satiatthana by teaching 5 khandhas, 5 dhatu (4 great elements and space element), practicing according to 5 dhatu, barhmaviraha 4, asubha, aniccasanna(to discard conceit), anapanasati http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-maha -rahulovada-e1.htm <<--Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of your mind and stay. Rahula on the earth is dumped, the pure and the impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, the earth does not loathe those, in the same manner develop a mind similar to earth. When you develop a mind similar to earth, arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of the mind and stay-->> The enlightenment of Rahula. : The Buddha knew that it's time for Rahula to become an arahat. He asked Rahula to go to the dark forest with him. The Buddha again taught Rahula about 4 ariyasacca, 5 khandha and 18 dhatu. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/147-cula rahulovada-e.htm Best wishes, Num 11571 From: Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hi, Victor - In a message dated 3/1/02 2:42:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, victoryu@s... writes: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as > they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is > present? > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is > inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is > inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in > dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, > or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is > inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is > inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is > inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is > inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises > in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, > as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things > as they actually are present." > > > =========================== Without a doubt concentration supports mindfulness, clear comprehension, and the arising of insight. The question is whether insight can arise without more than a modicum of concentration. The Mahasatipatthana Sutta seems to indicate in the affirmative. I think concentration is of major importance. But it is a very specific question that is being looked at. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11572 From: Victor Yu Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 1:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hello Howard, Yes, I have been thinking about the relation between mindfulness and concentration since this afternoon as I was reading the messages on d-l and dsg. Regards, Victor > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 > > Samadhi Sutta > > Concentration > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as > > they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is > > present? > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is > > inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is > > inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in > > dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, > > or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is > > inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is > > inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... > > > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is > > inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is > > inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises > > in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, > > as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > > > "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things > > as they actually are present." > > > > > > > =========================== > Without a doubt concentration supports mindfulness, clear > comprehension, and the arising of insight. The question is whether insight > can arise without more than a modicum of concentration. The Mahasatipatthana > Sutta seems to indicate in the affirmative. > I think concentration is of major importance. But it is a very > specific question that is being looked at. > > With metta, > Howard 11573 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 5:56pm Subject: right concentration, jhana Re: [dsg] An Analysis of the Path And notice right concentration is defined as the 4 jhanas, to tie into the other thread on jhana vs. meditation. -fk --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 > Magga-vibhanga Sutta > An Analysis of the Path > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was > staying in Savatthi > at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. > There he addressed the monks, saying, "Monks." > > "Yes, lord," the monks responded to him. > > The Blessed One said, "I will teach & analyze for > you the Noble > Eightfold Path. Listen & pay close attention. I will > speak." > > "As you say, lord," the monks responded to him. > > The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble > Eightfold Path? > Right view, right resolve, right speech, right > action, right > livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right > concentration. > > "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with > regard to stress, > knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, > knowledge with > regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with > regard to the way of > practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, > monks, is called > right view. > > "And what is right resolve? Being resolved on > renunciation, on > freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is > called right resolve. > > "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, > abstaining from > divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, > abstaining from idle > chatter: This, monks, is called right speech. > > "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from > taking life, > abstaining from stealing, abstaining from sexual > intercourse: This, > monks, is called right action. > > "And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the > case where a > disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned > dishonest livelihood, > keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, > monks, is called > right livelihood. > > "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the > case where a monk > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > upholds & exerts > his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful > qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He > generates desire, > endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts > his intent for the > sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > qualities that have > arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, > activates persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the > arising of skillful > qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He > generates desire, > endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts > his intent for the > maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, & > culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: > This, monks, is > called right effort. > > "And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is > the case where a > monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- > ardent, aware, & > mindful -- putting away greed & distress with > reference to the world. > (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of > themselves -- ardent, > aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress > with reference to > the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & > of itself -- > ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & > distress with > reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on > mental qualities > in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- > putting away greed > & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, > is called right > mindfulness. > > "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There > is the case where > a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, > withdrawn from > unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in > the first jhana: > rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied > by directed > thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of > directed thought & > evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: > rapture & > pleasure born of concentration, one-pointedness of > awareness free > from directed thought & evaluation -- internal > assurance. (iii) With > the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, > mindful & fully > aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He > enters & remains in > the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, > 'Equanimous & > mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With > the abandoning of > pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance > of elation & > distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: > purity of > equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. > This, monks, is > called right concentration." > > That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the > monks delighted at > his words. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45.8.html 11574 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Kom and all, > > I am interested to know how people understand the > following discourse. > > Regards, > Victor I interpret it as even though the unsuccessful monk is ardent, intent on becoming concentrated and mindful, he is not mindful of the particular hindrance that is preventing his mindfulness from being alert, and thus concentration is not focused, and the practice is unsuccessful. The analogy with the cook I see as meaning the meditator does not recognize the flavor of the day, or the hindrance of the moment, and does not apply the proper antidote, and instead mindfulness fails to prevent the mind from being dragged along by that particular hindrance(s). -fk > > > Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 > Suda Sutta > The Cook > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > "Suppose that there is a foolish, inexperienced, > unskillful cook who > has presented a king or a king's minister with > various kinds of > curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, > mainly sweet, > alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He > does not take note > of (lit: pick up on the theme of) his master, > thinking, 'Today my > master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that > curry, or he > takes a lot of this curry, or he praises that curry. > Today my master > likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes > mainly bitter > curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet > curry... alkaline > curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today > my master likes > non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty > curry, or he takes a > lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty > curry.' As a result, > he is not rewarded with clothing or wages or gifts. > Why is that? > Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook > does not pick up > on the theme of his own master. > "In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, > inexperienced, > unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of > itself -- ardent, > alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress > with reference to > the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in > & of itself, his > mind does not become concentrated, his defilements > [Comm: the five > Hindrances] are not abandoned. He does not take note > of that fact > (does not pick up on that theme). He remains focused > on feelings in & > of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > qualities in & of > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > aside greed & > distress with reference to the world. As he remains > thus focused on > mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does > not become > concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He > does not take > note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded > with a pleasant > abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & > alertness. Why is that? > Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk > does not take > note of his own mind (does not pick up on the theme > of his own mind). > > "Now suppose that there is a wise, experienced, > skillful cook who has > presented a king or a king's minister with various > kinds of curry: > mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly > sweet, alkaline or > non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He takes note of > his master, > thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he > reaches out for > that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry or he > praises that curry. > Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my > master likes > mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... > mainly sweet curry... > alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty > curry... Today my > master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for > non-salty curry, > or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises > non-salty curry.' > As a result, he is rewarded with clothing, wages, & > gifts. Why is > that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful cook > picks up on the > theme of his own master. > > "In the same way, there are cases where a wise, > experienced, skillful > monk remains focused on the body in & of itself... > feelings in & of > themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > qualities in & of > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > aside greed & > distress with reference to the world. As he remains > thus focused on > mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind > becomes concentrated, > his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that > fact. As a > result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here > & now, together > with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because > the wise, > experienced, skillful monk picks up on the theme of > his own mind." > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn47-008.html > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "tikmok" > wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > > > Please allow me to contribute my opinion here... > Let me forwarn: > long, > > like usual. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: egberdina [mailto:hhofman@d...] > > > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:14 AM > > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " > wasKamma > > > > > > > > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words > about a wordless > state. > > > > > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana > is a time honoured > > > tradition. > > > > > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits > of the > contemplative > > > life. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > > > > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is > a > dhammastudygroup > > > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > > > > > Herman > > > > Words can be very helpful. The tipitakas have > tons of words that > help > > us understand the different realities that are > rising now. It's > mind > > boggling to see how many different ways the > tipitaka describes the > word > > ----- (wisdom), also a wordless state. It's not a > question of how > many > > words there are: it is the question of why we > read/listen to the > words > > for, and why we use those many words. Words are > two-sided blades: > > they cut either way. > > > > I am not sure if I am right to assume that you > latter statement > > (Dissuading...) refers to Robert K's post. > However, it does seem > to me > > that his discussion is along the line of the > former statement > === message truncated === 11575 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Herman, Good to see you have lifted the nose from the grindstone for long enough to post, nice to 'read' you. Regarding your comment <<<'Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup institution. And what fruit does this bear?'>>> One of the things I admire about you Herman is that you call a spade a spade, you don't say anything just to court popularity, and no-one need ever fear that you will express different opinions away from them than you would to their face....True blue. I was going to send you some John Williamson lyrics (when I thought you were too busy to post), - always a risk - one either loves him or hates him - 'don't say you've gone, say you've knocked off for a smoko and you'll be back later on....' Just a personal comment (i.e. read 'not a scrap of scholarship in it' - I'll leave that to others): When I came to this List, I became conscious for the first time that buddhists didn't come with a 'one size fits all' practice system. I knew they mostly held to the same truth and that they simply expressed this belief in different ways. But I thought Meditation and the form that meditation practice took was a universally agreed 'common sense'. ( Actually, I didn't even think about it - it just 'was' - hadn't it been done this way for centuries and by vast majorities?... uh-oh...) I could cope quite well with differing views when 'those who were different' were any part of the rich Mahayana tradition, but found it unsettling when they were Theravadins - and conservative Theravadins at that. I realised I had fallen in with a group where there were some who didn't agree that what I thought (and had been taught) was the only way to practise, was so. I am curious by nature (accumulations?), but do not necessarily have a well-ordered or disciplined mind, tending more to ride the raft of my feelings. I am well aware that not having a disciplined mind initially makes me an easy victim of commonly held views and confidently presented methods of practice. But, like most Australians, an innate cynicism (accumulations?) makes me take a second and third look. So - like playing poker, I sat in for a few hands to size up these people, confident that I'd pick the flaw in their game(reasoning and method), and come out a winner. Haven't quite managed to pick the flaw, yet, but don't feel I'm losing.... What all that rambling is meant to say is that rather than there being even a mild form of dissuasion from practice of jhana on this list, there is, on the contrary, an acceptance of difference not seen on the other Theravadin lists, and the reasoned discussion of, and respect for, all views. This doesn't have to mean agreement. As a novice buddhist, I have not experienced any attempt to dissuade me from, or persuade me towards, any form of practice by members of this dsg list. I feel warmly held and supported, but not constrained...... Encouragement is different to persuasion......I have simply been given encouragement to keep considering, reflecting and studying. I have been encouraged to keep questioning anything stated by any list member, and to check everything against the Buddhas' teachings...even in Bangkok....and to be gentle with myself and not to desire instant results. And most important for me, no-one has ever made feel that any question is too stupid to be asked (though I would perfectly understand if there was a certain mild exasperation evident when I request repetitive answers.) Indeed, on other lists I have been horrified to see professed buddhists use the full armoury of exclusion, sarcasm, malicious, derisive humour, personal denigration, unremitting harrassment, verbal gang attack by real and virtual identities against individuals who simply hold and express different views on what practice should be. I have unbounded admiration for the courage and faith of those who can tolerate and not be beaten down by such sustained attacks.(and I have 'another' sort of unbounded emotion for the attackers.) But it was these vocal 'attackers' - the majority - so frequently, hypocritically and self-righteously trumpeting their own virtues, commitment and good motives, denying any ill-will, and congratulating those who were 'like' them, who filled me with such revulsion, that if their behaviour was the fruit of promoting formal sitting meditation and practise of jhana, then I wanted to take a look at every (ANY other) point of view. I know that just writing the above paragraph reveals so much about my own kilesas, and 'expectations' has had a round or two of its own recently as well. Lucky you all knew about my defilements anyway... :-). Herman, I feel no concern that anything other than tolerance and respect regarding sincerely held beliefs will be met with on this list. Discussion, giving and receiving teaching and courteous respectful debate are part of the joys I find here. Goodness! This was going to be just one paragraph. Hope you've made it this far....... metta, Christine -- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > tradition. > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein > wrote: > > > . ""Over there are the roots of trees; over > > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. > > Don't > > > later fall into regret. This is our message to you.""" > > > > > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is > > unnecessary, I wonder > > > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > > >++++++++++++++++++++ > > Dear Rob E. > > I was impressed with your post to Nina today. > > Glad you brought this sutta up, as there are several like it in the > > Tipitaka. I think it is one of those phrases that need a little > > explication. > > The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical phrase: > > > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino > > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i > > 118 (MN > > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. > > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and > > vipassanaa". > > > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii > 195 > > (there's a bit more just before this) > > Jim: > > >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > > >> that it does not > > >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both > > >> samatha and > > >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > > >> better translation than > > >> 'Practice jhana'. > > > > "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha > ending. > > In the > > PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the - > ti > > ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will > > find two > > entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, > > contemplate, > > think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to > > burn, to > > be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the > > commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and > > vipassanaa" > > in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that > > helps to > > clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate > > (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation > > (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. > according > > to > > anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." - > - > > MA i > > 195." end of section by Jim Anderson. > > ----------- > > When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to > > know that there are two types. > > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." > (same > > pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above. > > The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > > meditative absorptions" > > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > > (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on > > one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or > > Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight > > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > > three characteristics'"endquote > > > > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the > > actual > > characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to > > the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. > > THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says > > "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of > > ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the > > mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider > > the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of > > the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the > > pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that > > the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the > > causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the > > cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote > > best wishes > > robert 11576 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abandoning our values (was: Pre-Bangkok, etc...) Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > you wrote: "The only way to eradicate attachment altogether is to > develop the insight that sees dhammas as they really are (i.e., not > grasp-worthy) (= vipassana)." > > I agree, but this is an intricate and delicate process. As Christine > asked in so many words, who wants to abandon all their values? I don't think the Buddha is suggesting we should abandon our values or indeed anything, at least not in the sense I take you to mean (it is impossible to abandon something that is still clung to). What the teachings point out, on my reading, is that the attachment/clinging to values or whatever can be eradicated, and this is effected in stages by the development of insight. As each stage of clinging is eradicated the clung-to things are abandoned in the sense that, since they are no longer clung to, they fall away naturally. As you can see, this does not call for any act of giving up/abandonment as such. > The point > I was going for was something I picked up in abhidhamma studies. How do > you grasp or attach-to a citta or even a rupa? Impossible. Not sure I'm with you here, Larry. Would you like to expand on this? As I understand it, attachment is of the nature to grasp or cling to things, whether real or imagined, just as aversion is of the nature to repel. > Coincidentally I had been looking for desire in all the wrong places, > i.e. any kind of unpleasant reaction. It was rather amazing that I found > it there, and finding desire in suffering seemed to unravel the dense > compoundedness of the "suffering", actually very trivial. Further > research is necessary, but I think this is relevant to "attachment". Finding attachment in suffering? I'd be interested to hear more. > How do you say "best wishes" in Chinese? In the context of closing a letter, I have no idea, since my written Chinese is almost non-existent. However, in colloquial Cantonese I guess it would be something like 'hoi-sum dii' (lit. be happy) (corrections from our Chinese speaking members welcome). Thanks anyway, and 'hoi-sum dii' to you, Larry. Jon 11577 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Good friend in dhamma (was: Practice, beings and contact) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > If I haven't already answered this, thank you for the clarification on > what you > were saying the 'pronouncements' were not useful for, that is, telling > whether or > not someone was actually enlightened. > > I have to ask, though: don't we all have to draw such conclusions in > order to > choose to listen to a 'wise friend well versed in the Dhamma'? And how > can we > know whether that person is a good advisor or not, if we do not have > either a > useful tradition to rely on, or a trustworthy instinct to rely on? A fairly straightforward answer to this last question is given in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (DN 16). There the Buddha said that the person's words and expressions 'should be carefully noted and compared with the suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they … on such comparison and review are found to conform to the suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this [person]."' The crux of it, I think, is that we should never take anything we are told at face value, or evaluate it against our own instincts or intuition, but should always check it out against the teachings as recorded in the ancient texts. Of course, the more familiar one is with the texts, the easier this is. As a direct corollary of this, I would think that any person whose understanding is true to the 'suttas or the discipline' (i.e., the texts) would be likely to encourage others to check against the same source for themselves, and would be happy to discuss points of dhamma by reference to the texts (rather than, for example, in terms of their own experience or things not found in the texts). I should add that it's not simply matter of being able to cite a single text that appears to support a proposition, it's a matter of having a comprehensive knowledge of the teachings as a whole. Definite turn-offs (danger signs) to me would be anyone claiming (directly or indirectly) to have powers or levels of understanding (or allowing others to encourage that idea), claiming to be in possession of aspects of the teaching that are not recorded in the texts (but, for example, handed down person to person), telling me not to consider, discuss or analyse but just to do, or telling me that study of or discussion about the teachings was of no or little benefit. In my own case, almost everything I have come to understand about the teachings was contrary to my intuition at the time I first heard it. But since I could find no fault in it in terms of the texts, I felt I should hang around and listen some more. > I believe that both are viable, while it is clear to me that you believe > that > akusala can subtly pervade all areas of life and that our 'feelings' > about whether > something is headed in the right direction or not are inherently > deceptive. A > view I respect, by the way, and have been caused to pause and think > about. > > I have felt strongly that the Mahayana tradition has great authenticity > and wisdom > in its living lineage, as I also feel about the Theravadan tradition. I > have some > trust in the lineage holders of both traditions. Plus, I have allowed > myself to > trust in teachers just based on their apparent depth and wisdom to me. > I do > however understand your view about such things. > > So I will just repeat my question, which is meant respectfully and with > curiosity: > how can you be sure that your interpretation of the suttas, and the > advice you > get from 'wise friends' is kusala and heading one in the right > direction, if you > do not believe in using either tradition or instinct to make that > determination? For reasons I've already given, I don't think anyway that it's necessary to make any assumptions about another person's level of understanding. One listens to what the person has to say and then considers it by reference to the body of teachings, making due allowance for one's own 'instincts' (I prefer to think of them as prejudices, in my own case). Both tradition and instinct are specifically disclaimed by the Buddha in the Kalamas sutta as a proper basis for judging whether something is the true dhamma. Jon 11578 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Howard Aha. Gotcha! No, seriously, there is no trap being laid here. I just thought it better to go step by step. So to recap, whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly with an idea of self or craving (and thanks for identifying this other important ingredient in the mix, Howard). Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they really are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the object of the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. And if the person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the object would in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be *conceptualising about dhammas*. All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle akusala not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is bound up with akusala. I think it goes without saying that a 'practice' that is in effect moments of akusala could never lead to (be a condition for) the arising of kusala, particularly kusala of the kind that is awareness or insight. I would be interested to hear your take on this, Howard. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 2/24/02 12:08:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > Howard > > > > Thanks for coming back on a post which you probably strongly disagreed > > with. > > > > To 'back up' slightly, it might be useful to this thread to consider > the > > difference (if any) between *direct knowledge of dhammas/realties* and > > *observation of realities/dhammas*. > > > > By observation of realities I am referring to a kind of directed > attention > > or volitional (i.e., deliberate) action, whereby one contemplates what > is > > happening internally at the present moment (for example, if there is > mind > > with anger, then one observes mind with anger). It might be directed > to a > > particular aspect of the present moment (e.g., feelings), or it might > be > > directed to just whatever presents itself at the present moment. > > > > Now, I would suggest (and I suspect this is where we depart), that > such > > directed attention as described so far may or may not be kusala. It > seems > > to me that a person could do all this yet still with a strong idea of > self > > etc. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there be > a > strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Now you would no doubt say that if the person understands the > teachings on > > not-self etc, and he/she is observing the realities with a view to > seeing > > them in those terms, this should be kusala. Respectfully, I would > have to > > disagree. I don't think kusala can be stirred up so easily. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Indeed. Mere intellectual understanding of these teachings is not > > nearly enough, though it is a help and an important beginning. > ----------------------------------------------------- > And unless> > > we we have already developed a knowledge of the characteristic of > kusala > > and akusala that allows us to tell to a fine degree whether the > > consciousness is one or the other, I don't see how we could ever be > sure. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No disagreement on this. (I'm waiting now for the punchline which > will > make me want to withdraw all the ready agreement I've been giving!! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > I guess what I am saying here is that I believe we should never assume > or > > infer the kusala nature of a mind moment from the general > circumstances of > > the moment (i.e., I'm focussing on realities, it must be kusala; the > mind > > is so much quieter than normal, this must be what is meant by > > tranquillity, etc.). This seems to ignore the extremely subtle and > > pervasive nature of akusala. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I think this is so. I don't presume that many of my mind-moments > are > kusala. In fact, I suspect that almost all of them are flawed. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Well, I haven't dealt with the *direct knowledge* scenario, but > perhaps > > I've said enough controversial things for one post! > > > > I look forward to your well-considered comments as usual, Howard. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, I'm afraid you must be mightily disappointed with those I > have > provided herein! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Jon > > > > PS Apologies for any incorrectness in the position I have attributed > to > > you in this discussion. It is based on my best reading of your > posts! > =========================== > With metta, > Howard 11579 From: tikmok Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:45pm Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Good to see you have lifted the nose from the grindstone for long > enough to post, nice to 'read' you. Regarding your comment > <<<'Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a > dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear?'>>> Very happy to hear such an inspiring note. You are a real catch! kom 11580 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Doing nothing, doing something (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.)) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > If such is the case, then there is no practice. I assume, as I asked > Rob K. in my > last post, that you would then feel that there is nothing to be done by > these > kandhas including 'consciousness' making a decision or exercising will, > and that > in fact the kandhas are on 'automatic pilot' being buffetted completely > by > conditions in one or another direction. When it is time for panna to > arise, it > surely will, if the conditions dictate that more painful kamma will be > created, > nothing to be done. > > It seems to me that with this understanding that there is predestination > and > complete determinism. There is no moment in which the 'sentient' > quality of > consciousness has any effect that has not been strictly caused by a > mechanical > arising condition. So fate is determined in advance by the causes that > will come > from prior causes and we need do nothing but wait? Let me ask you, Rob. Would you consider that taking part in these and other discussions, asking questions, considering answers is 'doing nothing but wait'? Is reading the suttas purely out of interest in what they have to say (i.e., not because you think you're going to have any more awareness then or later) doing nothing? Is reflecting on what you've read or heard by reference to the present moment doing nothing? These may not be what you think of as 'doing something', but I suggest they are all volitional acts. > I paint this seemingly stark picture because I want to know if this is > in fact the > case from your standpoint, or is there another way in which the human > desire to > follow the path and know the Dhamma plays some sort of active role? Another of the conditions for hearing the true dhamma, if we are already associating with the right people, is exchanging ideas about the teachings and considering what we hear against our experience at the present moment. That's why it's useful to talk about such mundane realities as visible object and sound, because they can be the object of some reflection at the very time of talking or reading about them. For example, how does the seeing consciousness or visible object appearing at the present moment differ from what we conventionally designate as the 'computer screen' that is now 'being looked at'. > I am not saying, by the way, that either version is right or wrong. I > am just > trying to sort things out. Right. I hope I have been able to help do that. Jon 11581 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > As for meditation, what I am doing at the moment is regarding the > nama/rupa distinction as a distinction between truth and illusion. Truth > being rupa and illusion being nama. This is a casual way of speaking; > you could also say nama is defilement and rupa is non-defilement, or > something like that. The basic point is to take everything one thinks > and emotionally feels as illusory and fundamentally wrong. I'm not sure if this is similar to what you are saying, but some people consider that rupas are 'more real' than namas. While it is easy to see where this idea comes from, it is not something that finds any supoprt in the teachings, as far as I know. It was the Buddha's great achievement to be able to see by direct knowledge what is real and what is not, and to perceive that all realities are possessed of the same 3 characteristics (anicca, dhkkhhu and anatta), although at the same time each has its own particular 'individual essence' (sabhava) that distinguishes it from all other realities. > Technically speaking all this thinking and feeling could be analyzed > into ultimate realities, but the experience of it is suffering. For a > crude ordinary person like myself, the experience of rupa is not > suffering. That is a very interesting finding, and warrants further > looking into. Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, because it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. Only the mental factor of insight (panna) can see by direct knowledge this characteristic, and even then it is only highly developed insight that sees this. The beginning stage of insight is to see realities as either nama or rupa, and even this cannot begin without a firm intellectual grasp of what the teachings have to say on this. The world as we experience it is, in terms of rupas, merely 7 in number. Jon 11582 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Group, There are said to be numerous routes to nibbana. Sometimes the commentaries expand these into the thousands but they are grouped under three main types: 1. Those who use insight preceeded by samatha. They are masters of jhana and develop insight based on Jhana. 2. Those who develop insight in conjunction with samatha. 3. Those who develop insight alone . (But at the moment of attaining nibbana they of course attain supermundane jhana). They thus also have samatha finally. I think the Suda sutta (samyutta nikaya mahavagga p1634 Bodhi)can be referring to any of these in that it says "While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind does not become concentrated, his corruptions are not abandoned, he does not pick up that sign.." Corruptions abandoned is enlightenment and the sign can be either that of concentration of insight. The commentary to this phrase is explained in Bodhi's note to the sutta. He refers to 'Cittasa nimmittan gahessati' (pick up the sign) that this is explained by the commentary to ANIII 423 13 'cittassa nimittan ti samadhi vipassanacittasa nimittam, samadhivipassanakaram': sign of the mind; sign of concentration OR insight, the mode of concentration OR insight. Anyaway it is good to keep in mind the various ways of development as some suttas stress samadhi and others stress insight. I think the satipatthana sutta covers all. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > Hello Kom and all, > > > > I am interested to know how people understand the > > following discourse. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > I interpret it as even though the unsuccessful monk is > ardent, intent on becoming concentrated and mindful, > he is not mindful of the particular hindrance that is > preventing his mindfulness from being alert, and thus > concentration is not focused, and the practice is > unsuccessful. The analogy with the cook I see as > meaning the meditator does not recognize the flavor of > the day, or the hindrance of the moment, and does not > apply the proper antidote, and instead mindfulness > fails to prevent the mind from being dragged along by > that particular hindrance(s). > > > -fk > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 > > Suda Sutta > > The Cook > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---------- > > "Suppose that there is a foolish, inexperienced, > > unskillful cook who > > has presented a king or a king's minister with > > various kinds of > > curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, > > mainly sweet, > > alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He > > does not take note > > of (lit: pick up on the theme of) his master, > > thinking, 'Today my > > master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that > > curry, or he > > takes a lot of this curry, or he praises that curry. > > Today my master > > likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes > > mainly bitter > > curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet > > curry... alkaline > > curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today > > my master likes > > non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty > > curry, or he takes a > > lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty > > curry.' As a result, > > he is not rewarded with clothing or wages or gifts. > > Why is that? > > Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook > > does not pick up > > on the theme of his own master. > > "In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, > > inexperienced, > > unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of > > itself -- ardent, > > alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress > > with reference to > > the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in > > & of itself, his > > mind does not become concentrated, his defilements > > [Comm: the five > > Hindrances] are not abandoned. He does not take note > > of that fact > > (does not pick up on that theme). He remains focused > > on feelings in & > > of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > > qualities in & of > > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > > aside greed & > > distress with reference to the world. As he remains > > thus focused on > > mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does > > not become > > concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He > > does not take > > note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded > > with a pleasant > > abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & > > alertness. Why is that? > > Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk > > does not take > > note of his own mind (does not pick up on the theme > > of his own mind). > > > > "Now suppose that there is a wise, experienced, > > skillful cook who has > > presented a king or a king's minister with various > > kinds of curry: > > mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly > > sweet, alkaline or > > non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He takes note of > > his master, > > thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he > > reaches out for > > that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry or he > > praises that curry. > > Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my > > master likes > > mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... > > mainly sweet curry... > > alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty > > curry... Today my > > master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for > > non-salty curry, > > or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises > > non-salty curry.' > > As a result, he is rewarded with clothing, wages, & > > gifts. Why is > > that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful cook > > picks up on the > > theme of his own master. > > > > "In the same way, there are cases where a wise, > > experienced, skillful > > monk remains focused on the body in & of itself... > > feelings in & of > > themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > > qualities in & of > > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > > aside greed & > > distress with reference to the world. As he remains > > thus focused on > > mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind > > becomes concentrated, > > his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that > > fact. As a > > result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here > > & now, together > > with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because > > the wise, > > experienced, skillful monk picks up on the theme of > > his own mind." > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---------- > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn47-008.html > > > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "tikmok" > > wrote: > > > Dear Herman, > > > > > > Please allow me to contribute my opinion here... > > Let me forwarn: > > long, > > > like usual. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: egberdina [mailto:hhofman@d...] > > > > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:14 AM > > > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > > > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " > > wasKamma > > > > > > > > > > > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words > > about a wordless > > state. > > > > > > > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana > > is a time honoured > > > > tradition. > > > > > > > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits > > of the > > contemplative > > > > life. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > > > > > > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is > > a > > dhammastudygroup > > > > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > > > > > > > Herman > > > > > > Words can be very helpful. The tipitakas have > > tons of words that > > help > > > us understand the different realities that are > > rising now. It's > > mind > > > boggling to see how many different ways the > > tipitaka describes the > > word > > > ----- (wisdom), also a wordless state. It's not a > > question of how > > many > > > words there are: it is the question of why we > > read/listen to the > > words > > > for, and why we use those many words. Words are > > two-sided blades: > > > they cut either way. > > > > > > I am not sure if I am right to assume that you > > latter statement > > > (Dissuading...) refers to Robert K's post. > > However, it does seem > > to me > > > that his discussion is along the line of the > > former statement > > > === message truncated === 11583 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] a taste of nibbana? Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Greetings DSG, > > What do you think? Can a taste of nibbana be found in any cessation, > such as the cessation of a "round" of breath, in and out, or the > cessation of a feeling, a thought, an impulse, or a sensory sensation? Hmm, interesting. (Of course I believe the best way to try to answer this is by reference to the texts.) Nibbana is said to be cessation (extinction) in 2 respects: (1) at the moment of attainment, it is the cessation of all defilements, and (2) at the death of the arahant, it is the cessation of the 5 khandhas. In (1) above, cessation seems to be the equivalent of eradication, while in (2) it seems to mean that the last falling away is not followed by any subsequent arising, as is normally the case. I'm not sure that experiencing the mundane kinds of 'cessation' you mention would give any taste of these rather special modes of cessation. (Sorry is that's discouraging!) My best try. Jon From Nyanatiloka, 'Buddhist Dictionary' http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_n.htm "Nibbána, (Sanskrit nirvána): lit. 'extinction' (nir + Ö va, to cease blowing, to become extinguished); according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' (nir+ vana). ... The 2 aspects of Nibbána are: (1) The full extinction of defilements (kilesa-parinibbána), also called sa-upádi-sesa-nibbána, i.e. 'Nibbána with the groups of existence still remaining'. This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect holiness. (2) The full extinction of the groups of existence (khandha-parinibbána), also called an-upádi-sesa-nibbána, i.e. 'Nibbána without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat." 11584 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they really > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the object of > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. And if the > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the object would > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be *conceptualising > about dhammas*. All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle akusala > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is bound > up with akusala. > > ____________ Dear Jon, I think the object of attention could be a paramattha dhamma. For example , painful feeling, or heat. But they would be experienced not as they truly are, but in a distorted way (vipallasa). best wishes robert 11585 From: Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/1/02 9:43:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Aha. Gotcha! ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Uh, oh! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > > No, seriously, there is no trap being laid here. I just thought it better > to go step by step. > > So to recap, whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly > with an idea of self or craving (and thanks for identifying this other > important ingredient in the mix, Howard). > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I said was the following, Jon: "I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there be a strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved." Now, Jon, saying that there *could* be a strong sense of self and there *could* also be strong craving involved, is a far cry from saying "whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly with an idea of self or craving." In fact, it is my understanding that when a backgound layer of calm and nonreactiveness is in place as the result of an ongoing concentration practice, directed attention/observation can be relatively free of a sense of self and almost completely free of craving. In fact, this is, as I see it, the purpose of Right Concentration, which is defined again and again in the suttas as the attaining of the first four jhanas. In any case, Jon, the Buddha never taught anyone to just wait until *somehow* conditions arose for wisdom to appear. The Buddha taught the conscious, deliberate, and determined practice of right behavior, right meditation (including both the cultivation of calm and insight), and wisdom (at the intellectual level, by study of the dhamma, and at the ultimate level as a consequence of all the rest). ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they really > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The sense of self disappears only with the attainment of complete enlightenment. But dhammas can come to be known as they are, that is by wisdom, as a consequence of a combination of right behavior, meditation, and right understanding, and mindfulness can be developed while one is still a worldling. If that were not so, there would be no escape from samsara, and the Buddha's teaching would be a fraud. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the object of > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: My *experience* is that this is just not so. When concentration, calm, and mindfulness are made very strong by extended practice, one *can* see dhammas directly, and not through the mediation of concept, and their impermanence and insubstantiality become clear. In fact, it is amazing at times that things in reality are not at all what they seem to be through the mediation of concepts. It is definitely possible to see that "our world" is one big conceptual magic show. It *is* possible to see through the trickery! (But not by just waiting for conditions to "somehow" arise, and not by just *reading* about the way things really are.) -------------------------------------------------------------- And if the> > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the object would > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be *conceptualising > about dhammas*. > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And you know this pessimistic "fact" how? ------------------------------------------------------------- All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle akusala> > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is bound > up with akusala. > > I think it goes without saying that a 'practice' that is in effect moments > of akusala could never lead to (be a condition for) the arising of kusala, > particularly kusala of the kind that is awareness or insight. > > I would be interested to hear your take on this, Howard. > > Jon > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11586 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 1:15am Subject: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast -Dear Frank, The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the Patisambhidhimagga (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of this sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 Catukkanipata -Rohitassavaggo (9)Hallucinations Brethren there are these four hallucination of perception, of thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, to say that there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to say that there is happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of peraception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul in soullessness is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to say that there is purity in impurity is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, brethren, are.the four hallucinations. Brethren, there are also these four kinds of clear-sight in perception, thiniking and views. What are the four?Brethren, to say that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: in sorrow, no soul in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are the four kinds of clearsight in perception, thinking and views. They who in change discern the permanent, And bliss in what is woe, and see the self In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- They wander on the path of wrongful view. Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* Back to the round of birth and death they go. But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see The transient as transient, and woe As being woe, and what is selfless see As selfless, as impure what is impure- Thus they have woe transcended by Right View best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > Hi Kom, > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html > > > > That is a great sutta. And it also supports my > point. Notice how stages of enlightenment are > described qualitatively, not shrink wrapped into > perfectly delineated independent factors of aggregates > that confirm stages. > > > Even if we don't > > understand why > > the categorization, I think we should be study the > > texts > > carefully before making a decision that one > > shouldn't be in > > the same group as the other. > > No need for anyone to get upset. I'm not proposing > we revise the tipitaka and make it the 3 vipallasas. > All I'm saying is the 4th vipallasa is a derivative of > the other 3, and doesn't really seem to belong in the > group. For example, in the list: > > 1) coconut > 2) soy bean > 3) cilantro > 4) coconut curried tofu and rice > > Which item seems out of place? > > If the commentators had come up with a list of second > order vipallasas, separate from the primary 3, then > that would make more sense to me. > > -fk > > 11587 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 3:09am Subject: Contemplating death Dear All, Hope this doesn't seem too morbid, I have found it strangely comforting over the last week or so, helped get things in perspective. Unfortunately I don't have all the references. If anyone does, I'd appreciate being told. metta, Christine CONTEMPLATING DEATH Nowadays, according to a world record, about 200,000 people die, on average, every day. Apparently about 70 million people die every year. We are not used to contemplate death or come to terms with it. What we usually do is to avoid it and live as if we were never going to die. As long as there is fear of death, life itself is not being lived to its fullest and at its best. So one of the very fundamental reasons for contemplating death, for making this reality fully conscious, is that of overcoming fear. The contemplation of death is not for making us depressed or morbid; it is rather for the purpose of helping to free ourselves from fear. Contemplation of death will change the way we live and our attitudes towards life. The values that we have in life will change quite drastically once we stop living as if we are going to live forever, and we will start living in a quite different way. (Buddhanet.net) Seeing with wisdom the end of life in others and comparing this life to a lamp kept in a windy place, one should meditate on death. Just as the world beings who once enjoyed great prosperity will die, even so one day will I die too. Death will indeed come to me. This death has come along with birth. Therefore, like an executioner, death always seeks an opportunity to destroy. Life, without halting for a moment, and ever keen on moving, runs like the sun that hastens to set after its rise. This life comes to an end like a streak of lightening, a bubble of water, a dew drop on a leaf, or a line drawn on water. Like an enemy intent on killing, death can never be avoided. If death could come in an instant to the Buddhas endowed with great glory, prowess, merits, supernormal powers and wisdom, what could be said of me? Dying every instant, at one point I shall die in the blink of an eye, for want of food, or through internal ailments or through external injuries. Uncertain is my life Certain is my death Inevitable is death for me my life has death as its end my life is indeed unsure my death is sure Not long alas this body on the earth will lie rejected, void of consiousness useless like a rotten log All beings have died are dying will die In the same way I too will die not for me of this there doubt All formations are transient when one with wisdom sees then one is disenchanted with ill this is the path to purity All formations are suffering when one with wisdom sees then one is disenchanted with ill this is the path to purity All phenomena are non-self when one with wisdom sees then one is disenchanted with ill this is the path to purity Dhammapada: 286 "Here shall I dwell in the season of rains, and here in winter and summer"; thus thinks the fool, but he does not think of death. 287 For death carries away the man whose mind is self-satisfied with his children and his flocks, even as a torrent carries away a sleeping village. 288 Neither father, sons nor one's relations can stop the King of Death. When he comes with all his power, a man's relations cannot save him. 289 A man who is virtuous and wise understands the meaning of this, and swiftly strives with all his might to clear a path to Nirvana. Upajjhatthana Sutta AN v.57 "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? "'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' "'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.'... "'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.'... "'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.'... "'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.'... "These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. May this realization spur me on to put aside useless regrets, and live each day with compassion for myself and others, with kindness towards myself and others, with joy in the achievements of myself and others, and with even-mindedness in all things 11588 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 3:11am Subject: correction "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma ---Where I said "Corruptions abandoned is enlightenment" I may have been too narrow (not sure) as the commentary seems to be indicating either mundane or supramundane jhana here. robert h dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Group, > There are said to be numerous routes to nibbana. Sometimes the > commentaries expand these into the thousands but they are grouped > under three main types: > 1. Those who use insight preceeded by samatha. They are masters of > jhana and develop insight based on Jhana. > 2. Those who develop insight in conjunction with samatha. > 3. Those who develop insight alone . (But at the moment of attaining > nibbana they of course attain supermundane jhana). They thus also > have samatha finally. > > I think the Suda sutta (samyutta nikaya mahavagga p1634 Bodhi)can be > referring to any of these in that it says "While he dwells > contemplating the body in the body, his mind does not become > concentrated, his corruptions are not abandoned, he does not pick up > that sign.." > Corruptions abandoned is enlightenment and the sign can be either > that of concentration of insight. > The commentary to this phrase is explained in Bodhi's note to the > sutta. He refers to 'Cittasa nimmittan gahessati' (pick up the sign) > that this is explained by the commentary to ANIII 423 13 'cittassa > nimittan ti samadhi vipassanacittasa nimittam, > samadhivipassanakaram': sign of the mind; sign of concentration OR > insight, the mode of concentration OR insight. > > > Anyaway it is good to keep in mind the various ways of development as > some suttas stress samadhi and others stress insight. I think the > satipatthana sutta covers all. > best wishes > robert > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > > Hello Kom and all, > > > > > > I am interested to know how people understand the > > > following discourse. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > > > I interpret it as even though the unsuccessful monk is > > ardent, intent on becoming concentrated and mindful, > > he is not mindful of the particular hindrance that is > > preventing his mindfulness from being alert, and thus > > concentration is not focused, and the practice is > > unsuccessful. The analogy with the cook I see as > > meaning the meditator does not recognize the flavor of > > the day, or the hindrance of the moment, and does not > > apply the proper antidote, and instead mindfulness > > fails to prevent the mind from being dragged along by > > that particular hindrance(s). > > > > > > -fk > > > > > > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 11589 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 4:05am Subject: Kilesas (Defilements) Dear All, After reading a little on this topic, maybe I've misunderstood the seriousness of kilesas. They seem to be a little more dangerous than an individual idiosyncracy, or bad habit...a little more than a harmless tendency to react in a certain way. The description "baneful influence" certainly catches the attention..... Christine "One must not think that these kilesas are little things, which are just tacked onto oneself somehow. They are extremely important and are very deep in the heart. It is just these kilesas that cause all the trouble in the world - nothing else. Atomic bombs don't let themselves off, they require people to do so; bullets are not fired from guns without people behind them; and what is behind each person is his own kilesas all the time. So the whole trouble in the world springs from these kilesas, which are quite subtle, extremely resourceful and ever-present. They are resourceful because they dwell there in each person's own heart (or citta), which they usurp. They use its inherent cleverness to further their own ends. The kilesas are there in the heart, and Dhamma is there also, all mixed up; it depends on circumstances which one dominates at any one time. These kilesas are there in the heart all the time, and so they are continually flowing out and displaying themselves in action, speech and thought. In fact, we could say that the average person is almost entirely the kilesas. It is not that sometimes they are there and sometimes they are not - they are there all the time, colouring our outlook, causing our understanding to be deluded. Our basic perceptions of the world, other people, ourselves, religion and endless other things are all distorted, because they all come under the baneful influence of kilesas." http://www.abm.ndirect.co.uk/fsn/36/wisdom.html 11590 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Hi Frank, Thank you for responding. It helps me understand the discourse better. Regards, Victor > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > Hello Kom and all, > > > > I am interested to know how people understand the > > following discourse. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > I interpret it as even though the unsuccessful monk is > ardent, intent on becoming concentrated and mindful, > he is not mindful of the particular hindrance that is > preventing his mindfulness from being alert, and thus > concentration is not focused, and the practice is > unsuccessful. The analogy with the cook I see as > meaning the meditator does not recognize the flavor of > the day, or the hindrance of the moment, and does not > apply the proper antidote, and instead mindfulness > fails to prevent the mind from being dragged along by > that particular hindrance(s). > > > -fk > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 > > Suda Sutta [snip] 11591 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Jon, Is nama permanent or impermanent? Regards, Victor > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, because > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. Only the > mental factor of insight (panna) can see by direct knowledge this > characteristic, and even then it is only highly developed insight that > sees this. The beginning stage of insight is to see realities as either > nama or rupa, and even this cannot begin without a firm intellectual grasp > of what the teachings have to say on this. > > The world as we experience it is, in terms of rupas, merely 7 in number. > > Jon 11592 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 5, no. 3 Hi Nina, What are the accumulated conditions for the arising of mindfulness? What are the right conditions for the realities to arise? Regards, Victor India Ch 5, no 3 Listening to the Dhamma and considering what we heard can condition the arising of sati. It depends on someone¹s accumulated inclinations how deeply he will consider what he hears. Nobody can control the arising of mindfulness, it all depends on the accumulated conditions for it. Nobody can control the object of mindfulness either. As we were often reminded: nobody can choose to see, nobody can choose to hear, nobody can choose to have sati, these realities arise when there are the right conditions. We may try to have conditions as a support for paññå but this is motivated by clinging to the concept of self. Acharn Sujin stressed that we need more understanding of the truth of non-self as a firm foundation that can condition the arising of right awareness. She said: ³When a characteristic of a reality appears, do we just remember the name of that reality, or is there sati arising because of its own conditions? A reality such as seeing may appear, but it appears for a very short time, and then it falls away. Sati arises for a very short moment and then it falls away. Sati that is aware without trying to focus on a reality is right awareness. But the clinging to the concept of self comes in between all the time. It is very difficult to become detached from it. Gradually we can become familiar with the different characteristics that appear.² Acharn Sujin explained many times how important it is to be sincere as to one's own development. We should realize when there is satipatthåna and when there is not, we should realize what we understand already and what not yet. She stressed that it is the task of sati to be mindful of realities, not our task. If we deeply consider this, we shall be less inclined to think of sati with attachment, or to try to induce sati. By listening to the Dhamma and considering what we hear, right understanding of the way to develop satipatthåna grows, and thus, conditions are gradually accumulated for the arising of sati of satipatthåna. When sati of satipatthåna arises and is aware of a characteristic, paññå can understand what sati is and in this way the difference can be discerned between the moment that there is sati and the moment that there is forgetfulness of realities. When sati is mindful of a reality, paññå, understanding of that characteristic, can gradually develop. Acharn Sujin reminded us many times that we should have no expectations with regard to the arising of sati and paññå: ³One can live happily with regard to the development of understanding, and this can be very natural. If there is very little paññå, one sees one¹s own accumulations and one knows that one cannot have what has not been accumulated. Someone may dislike his accumulations, but if there is more understanding he can take life easy. When paññå arises there are no expectations, the function of paññå is detachment. If there is not enough understanding and there is desire for sati and paññå, they cannot arise. We should know, if there is interest to listen, that it is not self who has an interest, but that it arises because of conditions.² 11593 From: Lucy Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Christine There's a nice article by Ven. Gunaratna: "Buddhist Reflections on Death" (The Wheel Publication No. 102/103) in Access to Insight. Haven't got the URL handy, but follow this: Theravada Text Archives > Buddhist Publication Society > The Wheel Mindfulness of death is one of those practices that are common to all schools of Buddhism. Not necessarily morbid - in fact, much the opposite after doing for a while. As you well say, comforting. If you want some guidance in truly dramatic fashion, have a look at Tibetan teachings. Examples below: " O great king, it is like this. There is no provision against the gleaming staff of the Lord of Death, there is no protector, no refuge, no friendly forces, no friends and relatives. Our joints will divide and come apart. Our flesh and blood will dry up. Our bodies will be racked by sickness. We shall rage with thirst. Our arms and legs will convulse. We will not be able to act. We will have no strength. Our bodies will be covered in saliva, mucus, urine, and vomit. " "O great king, within your house incense, flowers, silk hangings, seats, and various cloths will be collected. With the pillows on the left and right, your bed will be taken away to the great charnel ground full of crows, foxes, and nauseating human corpses. Doubtless your motionless body will lie upon the ground. " "Within the impermanent play of the rain-clouds of this life, ° In garlands of flashing lightning, dances the Lord of Death. Day and night, the falling rain of the changing seasons Drowns whatever sprouts may grow within the three levels. " "The three worlds' impermanence is like the clouds of autumn. The birth and death of beings has the aspect of a dance. The lives of beings vanish like lightning into space. Like waterfalls cascading down a precipitous mountain, As quickly as the water comes it falls away. " etc. (I find this stuff strangely inspiring) Best wishes Lucy 11594 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 9:18am Subject: Re: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Thanks for the reference Robert. Does the Patisambhidhimagga go into more detail of what pure and impure means? The sutta you quoted below Anguttara is more of a synopsis. -fk --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > -Dear Frank, > The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the > Patisambhidhimagga > (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of > this sutta in > the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 > Catukkanipata > -Rohitassavaggo > (9)Hallucinations > Brethren there are these four hallucination of > perception, of > thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, > to say that > there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a > hallucination of > perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to > say that there is > happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of > peraception, of thinking > and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul > in soullessness > is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of > views. Brethren, > to say that there is purity in impurity is a > hallucination of > perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, > brethren, are.the > four hallucinations. > > Brethren, there are also these four kinds of > clear-sight in > perception, thiniking and views. What are the > four?Brethren, to say > that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: > in sorrow, no soul > in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are > the four kinds of > clearsight in perception, thinking and views. > > They who in change discern the permanent, > > And bliss in what is woe, and see the self > > In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- > > They wander on the path of wrongful view. > > Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, > > In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* > > Back to the round of birth and death they go. > > But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light > > Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way > > That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them > > Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see > > The transient as transient, and woe > > As being woe, and what is selfless see > > As selfless, as impure what is impure- > > Thus they have woe transcended by Right View > > best wishes > robert > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan > wrote: > > Hi Kom, > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html > > > > > > > That is a great sutta. And it also supports my > > point. Notice how stages of enlightenment are > > described qualitatively, not shrink wrapped into > > perfectly delineated independent factors of > aggregates > > that confirm stages. > > > > > Even if we don't > > > understand why > > > the categorization, I think we should be study > the > > > texts > > > carefully before making a decision that one > > > shouldn't be in > > > the same group as the other. > > > > No need for anyone to get upset. I'm not > proposing > > we revise the tipitaka and make it the 3 > vipallasas. > > All I'm saying is the 4th vipallasa is a > derivative of > > the other 3, and doesn't really seem to belong in > the > > group. For example, in the list: > > > > 1) coconut > > 2) soy bean > > 3) cilantro > > 4) coconut curried tofu and rice > > > > Which item seems out of place? > > > > If the commentators had come up with a list of > second > > order vipallasas, separate from the primary 3, > then > > that would make more sense to me. > > > > -fk > > > > 11595 From: Lucy Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Dear Jon and Larry (beginner's corner questions) From: "Jonothan Abbott" > I'm not sure if this is similar to what you are saying, but some people > consider that rupas are 'more real' than namas. > OK, what then do you have to say to some people who consider that namas are the only 'real' thing (meaning : perceived rupa is citta) ? Not meaning that there is no rupa, but meaning that what I see etc. as rupa is not rupa. > > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, because > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. This is a good point Jon. I wonder about superimposing concepts on experience "because it is something described in the texts" - wouldn't the product be self-suggestion rather than realization? Best wishes Lucy 11596 From: Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Great Stuff Lucy! 11597 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ayatanas revisited Dear Sarah, I appreciated very much your post on ayatanas, especially the reminders that they should be understood just now when there is the meeting of visible object, eyesense and seeing, sound, earsense and hearing, etc. We tend to count how many cittas are manayatana, mind-base, we want to understand all intellectually, and forget what is most important. I pasted below your reminders, thank you very much. Nina. op 01-03-2002 08:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > When we read about ayatanas, I understand it is the importance of the > meeting point of the various phenomena that is being stressed. Hence when > there is the meeting of visible object, eye base and seeing consciousness, > they are actuated (aayananti) and so on. I think they help us to > understand that this moment is conditioned in a split-second and then > passes away. We learn more about the conditioned nature of all realities > > I asked about a few points when we were in Bangkok that you’d all been > discussing. As I recollect, the ayatanas help us understand how this > moment is conditioned ‘in a split second’ and passes away.. We cannot say > that ayatanas are another way of classifying namas and rupas. Mind base > refers to all cittas, including lokuttara and all bhavanga cittas strictly > speaking. However, manayatana ‘doesn’t usually refer to bhavanga cittas > because ‘who knows these?’’ Cetasikas are classified as external mind > objects (dhammayatana), but not pannatti (concepts) which of course are > not real. > > We can only talk about eyebase (cakkayatana) at this moment of seeing > (cakkhuvinnana) and other experiences through this doorway.It is only at > this meeting (as we read in the Vism quote above) that eye sense and > visible object have sabhava. > > ********** > “...And the mind base, when classified according to profitable, > unprofitable, resultant, and functional consciousness, is of eighty-nine > inds or of one hundred and twenty-one kinds, but it is of infinite variety > when classified according to physical basis, progress, and so on. The > visible data, sound, odour and flavour bases are of infinite variety when > classified according to similarity, condition, and so on.. > ********** > This really reminds me of the complexity of conditions and the infinite > variety of resulting phenomena. Categories and numbers are only used to > help us understand these phenomena better, I think. > 11598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 0:25pm Subject: India Ch 5, no 4 India Ch 5, no 4 When we were in Sarnath, the Head Monk, the Ven. Kahawatte Sri Sumedha, showed us great kindness and hospitality, inviting us to use his office for Dhamma discussions, and later on arranging for a ³high tea² to be offered to us. While we were sitting at a long table in his office we heard every now and then the call of a bird that was kept there. When we hear sound, almost immediately we think of a concept. We should not try to avoid thinking of concepts, thinking arises naturally and it is also a kind of nåma. When we hear a bird¹s call or the voices of people it is natural to think of concepts, of mental images we have of animals and people. However, we do not think all the time, there are also other realities such as hearing, seeing or experiencing hardness. They arise and fall away in splitseconds, but we do not realize this and we remember concepts on account of what was perceived. Nåma and rúpa are not concepts, they are not imaginary, but they are dhammas each with their own characteristic. When a characteristic of nåma or rúpa appears, sati can be aware of them without thinking of their names. During our journey Acharn Sujin stressed often that no names or words are needed when there is awareness of characteristics of realities. This is a reminder for us, since we are so used to think in words about realities instead of being directly aware of them. She explained: ³Awareness should be natural; it just follows the moment of experiencing an object by ³studying² it with awareness, so that there is a beginning of understanding, instead of just thinking in words. Without thinking in words there can be right awareness of a reality, and awareness falls away. There should be no expectation of other moments of awareness.² Listening to Acharn Sujin¹s explanations is a condition for more understanding of paramattha dhammas, such as hearing and sound. Intellectual understanding of them is a foundation for the arising of direct awareness, provided we do not obstruct the arising of satipatthåna by wishing to have sati. When sound appears there must be the nåma which hears that sound, but paññå has to be developed so that it clearly understands nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. Acharn Sujin explained: ³ Rúpa cannot experience anything and nåma is quite different from rúpa. When sati of satipatthåna arises it is aware of only one characteristic at a time, for example of sound. There is nobody who hears, there is nothing else but sound and hearing that hears the sound. There is nobody at all, nowhere. If there is an idea of somewhere, there is thinking of some place, memory of place and people, of me, of the whole body. When understanding of sound is developed, it is just sound. People try to focus, to concentrate with the idea of self. Sound is appearing and citta experiences it, there are only these realities. There is nobody in this room. This can be directly experienced by gradually developing right understanding and this is the right Path.² 11599 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Lucy, Enjoyed your quotes and the article. Death is death, and usually doesn't come in a serene or beautiful form. The blood-curdling verses don't have as much impact on me personally as do your last two verses. (Though many would find it the other way around.) And I think with contemplation, the seed words have to hold the attention. The modern and efficient hospitals with strong mind-numbing palliative drugs, and the modern efficient funeral processes tend to take the power out of the old explicit descriptions and make them seem a little like Grimms fairy tales or tales round the camp-fire; Sanitary modern life hides the power and relentless inevitability of death, and almost hides the actual fact that death is occurring everywhere, every moment. As a result of the whole world being so death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people. (If they have time for a thought, it's usually along the lines of 'Can't be me, not just yet! Another few months.....I haven't finished everything yet'.....) But I found the last two verses you quote captivating .......and you end with etc! Can you provide a link, or other direction please? And perhaps tell me what the 'three levels' and the 'three worlds' are? A simplistic heaven, earth, hell model of existence perhaps? I'm not yet familiar with Tibetan teachings, always seemed too difficult to start........ Maybe it's because we have been experiencing a few storms lately, but I loved "In garlands of flashing lightning, dances the Lord of Death". AND "The lives of beings vanish like lightning into space." (This makes 'my' life seem so brief, unimportant, ephemeral, and forgetable.) Thanks, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Christine > > There's a nice article by Ven. Gunaratna: "Buddhist Reflections on Death" > (The Wheel Publication No. 102/103) in Access to Insight. Haven't got the > URL handy, but follow this: > Theravada Text Archives > Buddhist Publication Society > The Wheel > > Mindfulness of death is one of those practices that are common to > all schools of Buddhism. Not necessarily morbid - in fact, much the > opposite after doing for a while. As you well say, comforting. If you > want some guidance in truly dramatic fashion, have a look at Tibetan > teachings. Examples below: > > " O great king, it is like this. There is no provision against the gleaming > staff of the Lord of Death, there is no protector, no refuge, no friendly > forces, no friends and relatives. Our joints will divide and come apart. > Our flesh and blood will dry up. Our bodies will be racked by sickness. We > shall rage with thirst. Our arms and legs will convulse. We will not be > able to act. We will have no strength. Our bodies will be covered in > saliva, mucus, urine, and vomit. " > > "O great king, within your house incense, flowers, silk hangings, seats, > and various cloths will be collected. With the pillows on the left and > right, your bed will be taken away to the great charnel ground full of > crows, foxes, and nauseating human corpses. Doubtless your motionless body > will lie upon the ground. " > > "Within the impermanent play of the rain-clouds of this life, ° > In garlands of flashing lightning, dances the Lord of Death. > Day and night, the falling rain of the changing seasons > Drowns whatever sprouts may grow within the three levels. " > > "The three worlds' impermanence is like the clouds of autumn. > The birth and death of beings has the aspect of a dance. > The lives of beings vanish like lightning into space. > Like waterfalls cascading down a precipitous mountain, > As quickly as the water comes it falls away. " > > etc. > > (I find this stuff strangely inspiring) > > Best wishes > Lucy 11600 From: johnrloganis Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Re: Kilesas (Defilements) Christine, Thank you for your very clear elaboration. I had not seen the Kilesas the way you described them. I had wondered why even immediately after understanding the basic principles of the Dhamma, after a meditation in which much clarity has been realized, the most ugly things can pop out most unexpectedly. It seems that I must really do more practice and work on making the Dhamma more dominant in my heart/mind. Thank you again, Layman John > "One must not think that these kilesas are little things, which are > just tacked onto oneself somehow." 11601 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death --- Dear Lucy, I always loved reading the Tibetan texts about death too. Their chod practice looks skilful. Very good to often contemplate death and how it is coming - maybe only moments away. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Christine > > There's a nice article by Ven. Gunaratna: "Buddhist Reflections on Death" > (The Wheel Publication No. 102/103) in Access to Insight. Haven't got the > URL handy, but follow this: > Theravada Text Archives > Buddhist Publication Society > The Wheel > > Mindfulness of death is one of those practices that are common to > all schools of Buddhism. Not necessarily morbid - in fact, much the > opposite after doing for a while. As you well say, comforting. If you > want some guidance in truly dramatic fashion, have a look at Tibetan > teachings. Examples below: > > " O great king, it is like this. There is no provision against the gleaming > staff of the Lord of Death, there is no protector, no refuge, no friendly > forces, no friends and relatives. Our joints will divide and come apart. > Our flesh and blood will dry up. Our bodies will be racked by sickness. We > shall rage with thirst. Our arms and legs will convulse. We will not be > able to act. We will have no strength. Our bodies will be covered in > saliva, mucus, urine, and vomit. " > > "O great king, within your house incense, flowers, silk hangings, seats, > and various cloths will be collected. With the pillows on the left and > right, your bed will be taken away to the great charnel ground full of > crows, foxes, and nauseating human corpses. Doubtless your motionless body > will lie upon the ground. " > > "Within the impermanent play of the rain-clouds of this life, ° > In garlands of flashing lightning, dances the Lord of Death. > Day and night, the falling rain of the changing seasons > Drowns whatever sprouts may grow within the three levels. " > > "The three worlds' impermanence is like the clouds of autumn. > The birth and death of beings has the aspect of a dance. > The lives of beings vanish like lightning into space. > Like waterfalls cascading down a precipitous mountain, > As quickly as the water comes it falls away. " > > etc. > > (I find this stuff strangely inspiring) > > Best wishes > Lucy 11602 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:53pm Subject: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast --- Dear Frank, Unfortunately the section is one of the short ones (cf section I which is 90 pages) only 2 pages. The only extra info. is that the sotapanna have eradicated all the hallucinations except for the those at the level of citta and sanna for dukkha and foul. It makes a lot of sense to me as the sotapanna still (may) enjoy sexual pleasure, still can be strongly attached to children etc.. Why? Because they still have these perversions of view that see what is inherently dukkha and foul as sukkha and beautiful. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > Thanks for the reference Robert. Does the > Patisambhidhimagga go into more detail of what pure > and impure means? The sutta you quoted below Anguttara > is more of a synopsis. > > -fk > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > -Dear Frank, > > The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the > > Patisambhidhimagga > > (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of > > this sutta in > > the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 > > Catukkanipata > > -Rohitassavaggo > > (9)Hallucinations > > Brethren there are these four hallucination of > > perception, of > > thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, > > to say that > > there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a > > hallucination of > > perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to > > say that there is > > happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of > > peraception, of thinking > > and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul > > in soullessness > > is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of > > views. Brethren, > > to say that there is purity in impurity is a > > hallucination of > > perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, > > brethren, are.the > > four hallucinations. > > > > Brethren, there are also these four kinds of > > clear-sight in > > perception, thiniking and views. What are the > > four?Brethren, to say > > that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: > > in sorrow, no soul > > in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are > > the four kinds of > > clearsight in perception, thinking and views. > > > > They who in change discern the permanent, > > > > And bliss in what is woe, and see the self > > > > In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- > > > > They wander on the path of wrongful view. > > > > Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, > > > > In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* > > > > Back to the round of birth and death they go. > > > > But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light > > > > Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way > > > > That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them > > > > Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see > > > > The transient as transient, and woe > > > > As being woe, and what is selfless see > > > > As selfless, as impure what is impure- > > > > Thus they have woe transcended by Right View > > > > best wishes > > robert > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan > > wrote: > > > Hi Kom, > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html 11603 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 7:53pm Subject: correctionThe Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast --- should have been "they still have the perversions of citta and sanna that see ..." In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Frank, > Unfortunately the section is one of the short ones (cf section I > which is 90 pages) only 2 pages. The only extra info. is that the > sotapanna have eradicated all the hallucinations except for the those > at the level of citta and sanna for dukkha and foul. > It makes a lot of sense to me as the sotapanna still (may) enjoy > sexual pleasure, still can be strongly attached to children etc.. > Why? Because they still have these perversions of view that see what > is inherently dukkha and foul as sukkha and beautiful. > > best wishes > robert > In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > Thanks for the reference Robert. Does the > > Patisambhidhimagga go into more detail of what pure > > and impure means? The sutta you quoted below Anguttara > > is more of a synopsis. > > > > -fk > > > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > -Dear Frank, > > > The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the > > > Patisambhidhimagga > > > (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of > > > this sutta in > > > the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 > > > Catukkanipata > > > -Rohitassavaggo > > > (9)Hallucinations > > > Brethren there are these four hallucination of > > > perception, of > > > thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, > > > to say that > > > there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a > > > hallucination of > > > perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to > > > say that there is > > > happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of > > > peraception, of thinking > > > and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul > > > in soullessness > > > is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of > > > views. Brethren, > > > to say that there is purity in impurity is a > > > hallucination of > > > perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, > > > brethren, are.the > > > four hallucinations. > > > > > > Brethren, there are also these four kinds of > > > clear-sight in > > > perception, thiniking and views. What are the > > > four?Brethren, to say > > > that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: > > > in sorrow, no soul > > > in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are > > > the four kinds of > > > clearsight in perception, thinking and views. > > > > > > They who in change discern the permanent, > > > > > > And bliss in what is woe, and see the self > > > > > > In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- > > > > > > They wander on the path of wrongful view. > > > > > > Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, > > > > > > In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* > > > > > > Back to the round of birth and death they go. > > > > > > But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light > > > > > > Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way > > > > > > That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them > > > > > > Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see > > > > > > The transient as transient, and woe > > > > > > As being woe, and what is selfless see > > > > > > As selfless, as impure what is impure- > > > > > > Thus they have woe transcended by Right View > > > > > > best wishes > > > robert > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Kom, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html > > > > > 11604 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah F. to Mrs van Gorkom, Mr Epstein, and Dr. Num --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Mr. Epstein, your story of the lady who lost her whole family one > after the other, is a bit like Ashleys' father - a couple of days > before Ashley was killed, his Dad flew from Sydney to Brisbane to > visit him; after going back, the Police had to call on him and tell > him what had happened. Ashleys' Mum was killed eight years ago in > an identical car accident (someone running a red light), and his Dad > brought up Ashley and his sister alone. Once there were four in the > family, now it's down to two. Life sucks. Wow. I have a similar story from my family. If you really look at it, it does make you want to get unattached faster, doesn't it? scary planet. robert ep. 11605 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India Ch 5, no. 1 excellent and thank you, Eric. I always feel educated by you and bolstered in practice. robert ======= --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > There is no rule that all people should develop samatha, > > calm, to a high degree before they develop insight. But no matter > what one1s > > inclinations are, one should know and understand that what appears > because > > of conditions is impermanent and non-self. > > Hello Nina, I just to add that I find some points of question on > this when you say there is no need to develop samatha "to a high > degree." > > To my understanding, samatha exists as a means to pacify the > hindrances, and is a necessary prerequisite for liberative insight, > individual accumulations notwithstanding. So long as the mind is > overly distracted by factors like kukucca, kamachanda, vyapada, > etc., the type of highly developed insight associated with the > lokuttara panna lacks the appropriate conditions to arise. > > If the mind is beset by sensuous desire, by ill-will, by skeptical > doubt and worry, sloth and torpor, by restlessness and excitement, > it is impossible to cultivate any meaningful degree of equanimity-- > upekkha--one of the seven enlightenment factors. Likewise, when the > mind is beset by these hindrances dhamma-vicaya is extremely > difficult as the mind is preoccupied with unskillful thoughts and > elaborations (ayoniso manasikara). How can we truly investigate the > characteristics of dhammas as they are, if the mind is worrying > about the credit card balance, yesterdaty's argument with the boss, > tomorrow's vacation plans? Or if the mind is unstable and scattered > to the ten directions due to resetlessness and excitement or sunk > into the pit of laziness? Or perhaps most debilitating of all, > caught in the belief that awakening is impossible, not in this > lifetime, something for others, not for these khandas, which could > easily be the enemy of moha masqeurading as false humility? > > According to my understanding and reading of the Suttas, the Buddha > spoke plainly in the Satipatthana Sutta that the "monk trains > himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrications, and to breathe > out calming bodily fabrications." Samatha, in other words. And this > as a prelimuinary exercise the leads the mind to tranquility and > pleasant abiding here and now, engendering piti, one of the seven > enlightenment factors. > > This is part and parcel with the development of jhana to the degree > liberative insight has the conditions for arising (samadhi is after > all another of the bojjhangas), as well as viriya, and so on. The > six pairs (yuggalas) also factor heavily into this, as these > engender the lightness and pliancy of mind neeeded to remain focused > appropriately on the body, feelings, mind, and dhammas in & of > themselves, without bias, detached, leading to equanimity as regards > formations and ultimately to change-of-lineage and the insight that > cuts the knot of grasping at the root, if only for a short while at > first, and finally at the moment or arahata-magga-nana. > > According the the Buddha's instructions in many Suttas, including > the Parinibbana Sutta, it is the seven factors of enlightenment, > when brought to culmination, that lead to clear knowing and release > here and now. Only when these factors are present are the approriate > conditions present for the wisdom to arise that permanently severs > the fetters binding us to the wheel of samsaric existence. > > > We > > should not forget that the four Applications of Mindfulness > include all the > > common realities of our daily life, such as pain, pleasant > feeling, hearing, > > tasting, sound or tangible object. These are the objects of > satipatthåna. > > Indeed, and we should likewise not avoid the training needed for > true sati to remain steadfast throughout our daily activities of > standing, sitting, walking, and lying. But the type of sati that > remains steadfast and mindful, clearly comprehending, is, for all > but the rarest spiritual savant, a product of consistent and > diligent training, typically under the guidance of accomplished > kalyanamitratas (those who we have confidence enough in to believe > their understanding of the Dhamma is the product of direct knowledge > and not theory). > > In other words, while I completely agree that we can (and eventually > must) take any object as an object of sati, even (and especially) > concepts, true sati (I am unsure of what is meant by "Satipatthana" > here in DSG apart from its meaning "foundation of mindfulness", and > I prefer to use the word samma sati when speaking of Right > Mindfulness) is developed over time and with concerted, consistent > application of the trainings laid out by the Buddha in all spheres > of activity, beginning with the body, and when the mind is > appropriately trained in this foundation to move on to vedana, then > citta, then dhammas (which also embody conceptual categories such as > the Four Noble Truths and so on and its attendant meditations on the > origins and cessations of sufferings as they arise through the six > doorways, as well as the path, including the indispensible factor of > Right Concentration, that leads to the permanent cessation of > suffering). 11606 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Dear Nina, Thanks for these important notes, which are appreciated. Best, Robert Ep. ================== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 27-02-2002 05:46 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > > > "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and > > the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher > > should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for > > them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't > > later fall into regret. This is our message to you." > > > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is unnecessary, I > > wonder > > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > > > > Nina: Dear Rob Ep, thank you for your well formulated answer to me. You > mention very good points. I join Robert K. in his answer about the different > meanings of jhana. Here is also a text about jhaana: > > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > > > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi > Contemplate. Contemplate the thirtyeight > > objects (of samatha), > lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. > contemplate the characteristics beginning with impermanence (dukkha, anatta) > of the khandhas, the ayatanas, etc. > Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati > maapamajjittha. > Develop samatha and vipassana, it was said. Do not be forgetful. > > > > Thus, there are two kinds of upanijjhana, contemplation (or meditation): in > samatha, attained with the 38 meditation subjects, and also in vipassana > with regard to the three characteristics, that are penetrated only by > vipassana. > There are more distinctions as to jhana, mundane and supramundane, as Jon > has written in excellent posts. I kept part of them and quote now: > > useful description of the difference between mundane jhana > moments (i.e. jhana consciousness resulting from the > development of samatha) and Eightfold Path moments (i.e. the > supramundane consciousness arising at a moment of > enlightenment). This follows the comment in the earlier > passage that for every attainer to the Eightfold Path, whether > 'bare insight' attainer (i.e. without mundane jhana) or otherwise, > all supramundane path moments are considered types of jhana > consciousness "because they occur in the mode of closely > contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane > jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane > jhanas". > > I find interesting the differences that are noted in the passage, > which I have pasted below. To me they certainly do not suggest > any *necessary* connection between mundane jhana and the > moment of path consciousness.> > > Jon > > CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 > mundane jhanas in several important respects. [5] > First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object some > concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the supramundane > jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the unconditioned reality. > [5.1] > Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the > defilements while leaving their underlying seeds intact, the > supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate defilements so that > they can never again arise. [5.2] > Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the fine > material world and thus sustain existence in the round of > rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the fetters binding one to > the cycle and thus issue in liberation from the round of birth and > death. [5.3] > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane jhanas is > subordinate to that of concentration, in the supramundane > jhanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced, with > concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned element and > wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble > Truths. [5.4]> > > [Jon's notes:] > 5. There are 4 important differences between jhana citta and the > path citta – > 5.1. The object of jhana citta is a concept , while the object of > the moment of path citta is Nibbana. > 5.2. Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while magga citta > eradicates kilesa. > 5.3. Jhana cittas are a condition for future rebirth, whereas > magga cittas result in liberation from the cycle of birth and death. > 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana citta is the > degree of concentration on the object at that moment, whereas > the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that > pierces the Truths. > --------------------------------------- > > > CMA Ch. I, Guide (ie. summary of commentary) to ##30-31 > > > > "All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits > through the > > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three > characteristics of > > impermanence, suffering, and non-self. [1] However, they > differ among > > themselves in the degree of their development of concentration > (samadhi). > > > > "Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called > > practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they > reach the > > path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > > > "Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path > and fruit > > which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained > before reaching > > the path... > > > > "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path > and > > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. > They are so > > considered because they occur in the mode of closely > contemplating their > > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and > because they > > possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to > their > > counterparts in the mundane jhanas." [4] > > [ends] > > =================================== > > > > Jon's notes: > > 1. It is the development of understanding of the characteristics > of > > reality, rather than any other factor, that brings the attainment of > the > > path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta (magga citta). > > 2. Magga citta can be attained without the previus > development of > > concentration to the level of mundane jhana. > > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the concentration > accompanying > > the moment of path citta *`corresponds to'* the first level of > jhana. > > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to > `correspond to' > > jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with > same full > > absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. > > End quote from Jon's post. > > Nina: What people tend to forget: pa~n~naa is a necessary factor for the > development of samatha to the degree of jhana. If one thinks that samatha is > a base for vipassana: one tends to forget that one has to be highly skilful > in jhana, and acquire the masteries (vassis): entering jhana whenever one > wishes, changing the stages whenever one wishes, emerging whenever one > wishes (see Visuddhimagga). Moreover, the Vis also explains that very few > people can attain even access concentration, and the stages of jhana. Vis. > XII, 8: > preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand can do it. To extend > the sign and reach absorption is difficult for one who has done the > preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand can do it....> > It is important to take note of this warning. > > Best wishes, from Nina. 11607 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Christine, I used to believe in facing everything head on with a lot of energy and ploughing through obstacles. It took me a while to realize that a lot of the time this approach really obscures what is really happening, and that it takes more sophistication to really sense what is really required. For your current situation, it makes sense for you to be disturbed and for you to feel unbalanced. I'll indulge in a quick Mahayana story, and then back to Theravada: Ch'an Master Chao Chou was one of the most famous Masters, he started teaching when he was 80 and lived to 120. One day the monastery was invaded by soldiers and they took over. A general broke into the Master's quarters and stuck a sword at his solar plexus, then spoke: 'Do you realize you are looking at someone who could run you through with this sword and not blink an eye?'. Chao-Chou looked back at him and said: 'Do you realize you are looking at someone who could be run through with this sword without blinking an eye?' The general turned around and left and ordered his troops to evacuate the monastery. My point is just that most of us are not at this point, and when bad things happen it is going to make us physically shaky for a while and mentally upset. You are probably in shock, and that is a physical condition, and experiencing trauma. At a time like this, these days instead of saying 'work with all that and work it through' I would say instead: 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' Then when you feel a little more at ease, you can look at the feelings and state you are in more easily and allow things to heal a little at a time. We can't rush anything anyway. So be nice to yourself, and gently allow yourself to become aware of what's happened and how to absorb it. These shocks are tough, aspects of them take years to get through on subtle levels, and it is all part of the transformation of your consciousness towards your destination. That's my feeling anyway. Take it easy on yourself, and things will sort themselves out. Best Regards, Robert Ep. ============================ --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, > > Just exploring thoughts from recent events ........ just wandering > about in the scriptures. I like to know that the Buddha and the > Arahants experienced and overcame the sort of things I experience, > and I like to know how they dealt with these experiences. Not that > the Buddha would react in any way similar to common everyday > people........ I'm sure it will pass, but I now find myself faintly > anxious when dear ones are a little late coming home or contacting, > and I have never been like that before. > And I thought, if Rahula had died before him, there may have been > some specific teachings concerning attachment, fear, loss, > vulnerability. (I had forgotten that Gautama left them on the day > Rahula was born. Not actually an option for most of us.) > I have found teachings like Bhaya-bherava Sutta [Is this that fear & > terror coming?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'Why do I just keep > waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & terror in whatever > state they come?]; The Dhajagga Sutt ['For when you recollect the > Dhamma, monks, any fear, terror, or horripilation you may have will > be abandoned.'] ;The Akankha Sutta [If a monk would wish, 'May I > overcome fear & dread, and not be overcome by fear & dread. May I > dwell having conquered any fear & dread that have arisen,' then he > should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed > to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with > insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.]; the Abhaya > Sutta "Fearless", [The Blessed One said: "Brahmin, there are those > who, subject to death, are afraid & in terror of death. And there are > those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death.]; > And the Dhammapada 212-213 [From what's dear is born grief, from > what's dear is born fear. For one freed from what's dear there's no > grief -- so how fear? From what's loved is born grief, from what's > loved is born fear. For one freed from what's loved there's no > grief -- so how fear?] > I have also been thinking about 'Time' and what exactly it is, and > isn't....... > And other things in the Useless Questions Box like 'If I had heard of > the Teachings 25 years ago, would I/could I not have had children, > and therefore, been less subject to fear and attachment?' Not worth > answering I know - need to deal with what is, not what might have > been. Quite untidy inside this head of mine. :-) > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > > > > > > Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and > what > > > eventually became of him? > > > > > > > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the > > household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first > time > > after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by > > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the > Buddha > > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > > permission. > > > > Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was > declared > > foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also > features > > in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses > in the > > Theragatha. > > > > I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't > remember > > anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta > > commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and > the > > place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he > never lay > > on a bed". > > > > Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details > to add. > > > > Sarah > > ============================ > > 11608 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: Rahula - the fetter Dear Rob, How kind you are....Your thoughtfulness is deeply appreciated. I will : 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' No need for concern Rob - I am well aware of (unlikely) emotional complications, and best of all I work with that 'irreverent mob' who are also well aware. {I tell them that just the thought of having to be taken care of by them, is incentive enough to stay perfectly balanced!} My daughter is grieving normally, and the renewal of old friendships that had been neglected before the accident, is bringing happiness. I loved the story of Ch'an Master Chao Chou and the General, I had heard it years ago but could never find it again...I can imagine the scene - there would have had to have been burning, terror and killing just to get to that point, and the completely unexpected reaction from Chao Chou would have been almost incomprehensible to the General. Though he would have understood and respected the unvarnished courage. (Or was it courage?......) Thanks Rob, much metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine, > I used to believe in facing everything head on with a lot of energy and ploughing > through obstacles. It took me a while to realize that a lot of the time this > approach really obscures what is really happening, and that it takes more > sophistication to really sense what is really required. > > For your current situation, it makes sense for you to be disturbed and for you to > feel unbalanced. I'll indulge in a quick Mahayana story, and then back to > Theravada: Ch'an Master Chao Chou was one of the most famous Masters, he started > teaching when he was 80 and lived to 120. One day the monastery was invaded by > soldiers and they took over. A general broke into the Master's quarters and stuck > a sword at his solar plexus, then spoke: 'Do you realize you are looking at > someone who could run you through with this sword and not blink an eye?'. > Chao-Chou looked back at him and said: 'Do you realize you are looking at someone > who could be run through with this sword without blinking an eye?' The general > turned around and left and ordered his troops to evacuate the monastery. > > My point is just that most of us are not at this point, and when bad things happen > it is going to make us physically shaky for a while and mentally upset. You are > probably in shock, and that is a physical condition, and experiencing trauma. At > a time like this, these days instead of saying 'work with all that and work it > through' I would say instead: 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take > care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' Then when you feel a > little more at ease, you can look at the feelings and state you are in more easily > and allow things to heal a little at a time. We can't rush anything anyway. > > So be nice to yourself, and gently allow yourself to become aware of what's > happened and how to absorb it. These shocks are tough, aspects of them take years > to get through on subtle levels, and it is all part of the transformation of your > consciousness towards your destination. That's my feeling anyway. Take it easy > on yourself, and things will sort themselves out. > > Best Regards, > Robert Ep. 11609 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 1:53am Subject: Paticcasamuppada VI Dear Group, A little more: The Paticcasamuppada overturns the idea that it is the same consciousness (vinnana, citta) 'that travels and traverses' the round of rebirths (M.38). Instead a series of discrete moments, eye-conciousness (cakkhu-vinnana), ear-consciousness, nose-consciouness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciouness, and mind consciousness arise; each different than the preceeding one. The person uninstructed in the Buddha's law assumes that he is consciousness (or any of the other khandas) or consciousness is apart from him, or is in him, or is not 'him'but'him' is something else. The wise disciple sees it differently. He sees whatever khanda arises as "a disease, a boil, a dart, as calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as no protection, as empty, as void, as having no core, as Mara's bait, as not self...."Patisambhidhimagga XXIX8 This is hard to comprehend and so even some who have heard the Buddha's teaching misunderstand and assume (perhaps in disguised ways) that avijja or formations or feelings or the other links on the path are something happening to 'them' or... (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact[comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna vainly searching for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who has sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, cut off at the root...."endquote. The Visuddhimagga notes about the development of vipassana: "there is no removal of false view in one who takes it thus "I see with insight, my insight'..there is removal of false view in one who takes it thus 'only formations see formations with insight, comprehend, define, discern and delimit them." XX83 Venerable Moliyaphagguna later left the order of monks (SN 12:32.) The commentary notes that this is because he had not attained any of the paths (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami , arahant) "for if he had attained them he would not have reverted to the lower life". So difficult is it to step out of this perversion of view (vipallasa). Thinking thinks "'I' have insight, 'I' see or 'I' am ignorant, 'I' don't see" not realising that the thinking is occuring without any agent. There is no knower behind the knowing, no self continuing along the cycle. There are empty factors arising and ceasing bound momentarily only by the conditions of the dependent origination itself. It should be noted that although there is no self this does not mean that terms such as I, mine and self are to be discarded. These are necessary for communication even when discussing Dhamma. Thus the Buddha and arahants use them too; but without any misconceptions that they refer to something real. "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. For us, on the otherhand, it may be easy enough to think or say 'There is no self' but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in subtle or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me' thinking or speaking we are caught in the whirl of view. These hallucinations are gradually uprooted as they are seen and if satipatthana is correctly developed. It is natural enough, having confidence in the sublime Dhamma of the Buddha, that one wishes to bring the round to a quick halt: "In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants." Mahasatipatthana sutta. robert 11610 From: egberdina Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 2:44am Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Christine, Thank you for that wonderfully written post. You communicate so well. I accept what you say about the intent of people on this list without hesitation. The pickings are slim out there in Internet Buddhist Land, and certainly this here place is the cream of the crop. Thanks again Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Good to see you have lifted the nose from the grindstone for long > enough to post, nice to 'read' you. Regarding your comment > <<<'Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a > dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear?'>>> One of the things I > admire about you Herman is that you call a spade a spade, you don't > say anything just to court popularity, and no-one need ever fear that > you will express different opinions away from them than you would to > their face....True blue. I was going to send you some John Williamson > lyrics (when I thought you were too busy to post), - always a risk - > one either loves him or hates him - 'don't say you've gone, say > you've knocked off for a smoko and you'll be back later on....' > > Just a personal comment (i.e. read 'not a scrap of scholarship in > it' - I'll leave that to others): When I came to this List, I > became conscious for the first time that buddhists didn't come with > a 'one size fits all' practice system. I knew they mostly held to the > same truth and that they simply expressed this belief in different > ways. But I thought Meditation and the form that meditation practice > took was a universally agreed 'common sense'. ( Actually, I didn't > even think about it - it just 'was' - hadn't it been done this way > for centuries and by vast majorities?... uh-oh...) I could cope > quite well with differing views when 'those who were different' were > any part of the rich Mahayana tradition, but found it unsettling when > they were Theravadins - and conservative Theravadins at that. I > realised I had fallen in with a group where there were some who > didn't agree that what I thought (and had been taught) was the > only way to practise, was so. I am curious by nature > (accumulations?), but do not necessarily have a well-ordered or > disciplined mind, tending more to ride the raft of my feelings. I am > well aware that not having a disciplined mind initially makes me an > easy victim of commonly held views and confidently presented methods > of practice. But, like most Australians, an innate cynicism > (accumulations?) makes me take a second and third look. > So - like playing poker, I sat in for a few hands to size up these > people, confident that I'd pick the flaw in their game(reasoning and > method), and come out a winner. Haven't quite managed to pick the > flaw, yet, but don't feel I'm losing.... > > What all that rambling is meant to say is that rather than there > being even a mild form of dissuasion from practice of jhana on this > list, there is, on the contrary, an acceptance of difference not seen > on the other Theravadin lists, and the reasoned discussion of, and > respect for, all views. This doesn't have to mean agreement. > As a novice buddhist, I have not experienced any attempt to dissuade > me from, or persuade me towards, any form of practice by members of > this dsg list. I feel warmly held and supported, but not > constrained...... Encouragement is different to persuasion......I > have simply been given encouragement to keep considering, reflecting > and studying. I have been encouraged to keep questioning anything > stated by any list member, and to check everything against the > Buddhas' teachings...even in Bangkok....and to be gentle with myself > and not to desire instant results. And most important for me, no- one > has ever made feel that any question is too stupid to be asked > (though I would perfectly understand if there was a certain mild > exasperation evident when I request repetitive answers.) > > Indeed, on other lists I have been horrified to see professed > buddhists use the full armoury of exclusion, sarcasm, malicious, > derisive humour, personal denigration, unremitting harrassment, > verbal gang attack by real and virtual identities against > individuals who simply hold and express different views on what > practice should be. I have unbounded admiration for the courage and > faith of those who can tolerate and not be beaten down by such > sustained attacks.(and I have 'another' sort of unbounded emotion for > the attackers.) But it was these vocal 'attackers' - the majority - > so frequently, hypocritically and self-righteously trumpeting their > own virtues, commitment and good motives, denying any ill-will, and > congratulating those who were 'like' them, who filled me with such > revulsion, that if their behaviour was the fruit of promoting > formal sitting meditation and practise of jhana, then I wanted to > take a look at every (ANY other) point of view. I know that just > writing the above paragraph reveals so much about my own kilesas, > and 'expectations' has had a round or two of its own recently as > well. Lucky you all knew about my defilements anyway... :-). > > Herman, I feel no concern that anything other than tolerance and > respect regarding sincerely held beliefs will be met with on this > list. Discussion, giving and receiving teaching and courteous > respectful debate are part of the joys I find here. > Goodness! This was going to be just one paragraph. Hope you've made > it this far....... > > metta, > Christine > -- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > > tradition. > > > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the > contemplative > > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > > > Herman > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein > > wrote: 11611 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" But I found the last two verses you quote captivating .......and you end with etc! Can you provide a link, or other direction please? ------ Dear Christine The quotes come from something under the big title of "The commentary on THE GREAT PERFECTION: THE NATURE OF MIND, THE EASER OF WEARINESS called the Great Chariot" by the Tibetan Master Longchenpa (around 13th century, I think, Nyingma School) A massive and in parts very difficult treatise following the topics used in Lam-Rim meditation (which cover the full set of topics in the Mahayana path). The meditation on death and impermanence is the 2nd topic, following the meditation on the "precious human life". The first makes you feel great - "oh, boy! this is wonderful! am I really lucky !". Then comes the second topic (examining all the aspects of death and impermanance in great detail) putting a damper on it all. I like reading these first two chapters (the only ones I more or less understand) quite often - as a "morale booster" (?) The treatise in available on line at: http://www.geocities.com/gileht/#Longchenpa (interesting because the webmaster adds all sorts of additional material to the original text, including Suttas - he also uses different fonts and colours to enhance different parts of the text) [...for those with "M" leanings, the 2-3 websites by Gileht have a lot of interesting material http://www.geocities.com/gileht/ ] The full text in a single zip file (without additions) is at: http://www.mountaindev.com/OpenTibetanBuddhistTexts.html ---------------- And perhaps tell me what the 'three levels' and the 'three worlds' are? A simplistic heaven, earth, hell model of existence perhaps? -------------- "Three levels" here refors to earth, air and oceans. The "three worlds" are the three realms of samsaric existence: desire (where we all are), form and formless (where jahna adepts may end up). A useful on-line glossary for terms (especially those used in "M" that are not in the Pali glossaries): "Buddhism A to Z" by Ron Rpstein : http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/BuddhistDict/BDIntro.htm ----------- I'm not yet familiar with Tibetan teachings, always seemed too difficult to start........ ------------- Same here. I followed some basic courses (on Lam-Rim) because it's the only local group - but it all seemed too "ornate" for my accumulations (and I have dosa towards red carpets!) - so after a few years I was more than ready for a plain wall and Zen ! (now I've gone the full circle and I'm back at the beginning - 4NT etc. - he-he-he-he !) (more comments on contemplation of death follow) Best wishes Lucy 11612 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Christine, Robert K, all Been thinking about the contemplation of death and Christine's comments about "sanitised death" in modern society...It's so true that death is kept well hidden from our view in the world most of us live in. It's not shown, not seen, rarely spoken of ... I live next to a small graveyard, but it's all too pretty and quaint, death doesn't show - you've got to fill in the gaps with your imagination --- Seems a missed opportunity a) to prepare for the most natural event in the world (exactly as common as birth), b) cultivate renunciation, c) cherish the present moment --- all sorts of things, really! I like what Christine writes: > As a result of the whole world being so > death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people And that's probably a fatal surprise ! I noticed that in the Pali comms that I've read (not many), contemplation on death is often used as an antidote to (usually lustful) attachments. In the Tibetan teachings it's more with the intention to remind us that it's coming and move one to Dharma practice (the craving thing again). Perhaps it's because a lot of the Pali comms. are for monks who don't need reminding about impermanence but may still have considerable problems with lust ? I found one sutta where the Buddha teaches the contemplation of death in the same sense as the normal Tibetan teachings: ------------- Samyutta Nikaya III.25 - Pabbatopama Sutta - The Simile of the Mountains (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only) <> ""What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and reliable, were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a second man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to come to you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from the south and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think should be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what should be done?" "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and death are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, great king, what should be done?" <> "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are rolling in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, further said this: Like massive boulders, mountains pressing against the sky, moving in from all sides, crushing the four directions, so aging and death come rolling over living beings: noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, & scavengers. They spare nothing. They trample everything. Here elephant troops can hold no ground, nor can chariots or infantry, nor can a battle of wits or wealth win out. So a wise person, seeing his own good, steadfast, secures confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. One who practices the Dhamma in thought, word, & deed, receives praise here on earth and after death rejoices in heaven. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.html --------------------- I suppose the "rejoices in heaven" is the mundane teaching. But that would be a better preparation than sanitation and denial. Best wishes Lucy 11613 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesas (Defilements) (to John) Dear Layman John So nice to see you here ! How have you been keeping? Best wishes Lucy 11614 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 7:02am Subject: India Ch 5, no. 5 India Ch 5, no 5 When we meet other people and we talk to them, we forget that, in the ultimate sense, there is nobody, that we are alone with nåma and rúpa. If we do not know the characteristic that appears we think of this or that person. There must be citta that experiences an object. Colour appears, thus there must be a citta that is seeing. Visible object or colour is the only rúpa that is visible, that can be seen. Seeing sees for an extremely short moment and then it is gone, and also visible object falls away, nothing remains. When we look at people they seem to last, and this is because we think for a long time of shape and form of people and of things. There are many different moments of thinking and these fall away. Thinking is a paramattha dhamma, but the concepts that are the objects of thinking are not paramattha dhammas. We can learn to discern when we are in the world of concepts and when in the world of paramattha dhammas. We cannot immediately have right understanding of paramattha dhammas, but we can begin to develop it. I asked Acharn Sujin why, in particular, visible object seems to appear for a long time. She answered: ³It seems to appear for a long time, but when there is more understanding of it, it will appear more shortly. Only one kind of rúpa can be seen. When we are thinking of shape and form, it is remembrance of a concept, different from visible object. There is thinking and remembrance of what is seen. Other rúpas such as hardness or sound do not interest us as much as visible object.² The Buddha has taught us the truth of paramattha dhammas he had realized when he attained enlightenment, and that is why we can develop today right understanding of all phenomena of our life. From the following Sutta we can learn that the Dhamma is our true refuge when we see the five khandhas 1 , conditioned nåma and rúpa, as they are: impermanent, dukkha and anattå, non-self. This understanding is developed through satipatthåna. We read in the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandhå-vagga, The First Fifty, Ch 5, On Being an Island to oneself 2 ) that the Buddha said: Monks, be islands to yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands to themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things: ³What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?² Here, monks the uninstructed worldling... regards the body as self, the self as having body, body as being in the self, or the self as being in the body. Change occurs in this man¹s body, and it becomes different. On account of this change and difference, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arise. (similarly with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness.) But seeing the body¹s impermanence, its changeability, its waning, its ceasing, he says, ³formerly as well as now, all bodies were impermanent and unsatisfacory, and subject to change.² Thus, seeing this as it really is, with perfect insight, he abandons all sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not worried at their abandonment, but unworried lives at ease, and thus living at ease he is said to be ³assuredly delivered.² (Similarly with feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness.) ***** Footnote 1. The five khandhas are: rúpakkhandha, physical phenomena; vedanåkkhandha, feelings; saññåkkhandha, remembrance or perception; sankhårakkhandha, mental formations including all cetasikas except feeling and remembrance; viññånakkhandha, consciousness. 2. I used the translation by M O¹ C. Walshe, Wheel Publication No. 318-321. ***** 11615 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:28am Subject: Sujin Boriharnwannaket Greetings dsg, Could someone write a short biography of Khun Sujin and put it in the files. I think this would help people understand where you are coming from. I am particularly interested in did she invent this "study-only" path or was it handed down from someone else. Also, what is "the Foundation"? Who founded it, what is its purpose, what is Khun Sujin's association with it? Her message seems to be aimed mostly at Thai householders but is apparently attracting an international audience as well; could you expand on this? Does she speak english? What does "khun" mean? Maybe someone else would like to add some questions. thanks, Larry 11616 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear All, Thanks for the sutta Lucy....Now THAT'S the picture that gives me cold shivers! ...... the reality of non-deviating, inescapable, inevitable, undeflectable(Sp?), remorseless Death approaching me, is much scarier than 'blood 'n guts', and much scarier than the supernatural personifications found in the Christian tradition. One thought - the last moments in a persons life are held as very important to many buddhists, from the point of view of having some influence (?control) over what happens next (after death). My understanding from what I see daily, is that most people in the West (those that haven't died violently, or suddenly from a heart attack/stroke) die in a drugged murky haze with no control over bodily functions, last thoughts or emotions. So is there any point in knowing the exact sequence and names of mind moments etc. that make up this experience when most people aren't going to aware of it or be able to influence it in any way? And this affects the idea of preparation. With birth there is an approximate time that it will happen, there are a list of things known to be efficacious in easing the delivery (diet, exercises, breathing methods, spinal block and other drugs that don't cloud the mind etc.), there are 'experts' to guide you through it....... But with death, apart from having lived a life in line with the Precepts, I see very little that can help - the time of death is absolutely unknown, conscious death is extremely rare, and no-one who has experienced it has written a self-help 'How to die the way you want to die' manual. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Christine, Robert K, all > > Been thinking about the contemplation of death and Christine's comments > about "sanitised death" in modern society...It's so true that death is kept > well hidden from our view in the world most of us live in. It's not shown, > not seen, rarely spoken of ... I live next to a small graveyard, but it's > all too pretty and quaint, death doesn't show - you've got to fill in the > gaps with your imagination --- Seems a missed opportunity a) to prepare > for the most natural event in the world (exactly as common as birth), b) > cultivate renunciation, c) cherish the present moment --- all sorts of > things, really! > > I like what Christine writes: > > As a result of the whole world being so > > death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people > > And that's probably a fatal surprise ! > > I noticed that in the Pali comms that I've read (not many), contemplation > on death is often used as an antidote to (usually lustful) attachments. In > the Tibetan teachings it's more with the intention to remind us that it's > coming and move one to Dharma practice (the craving thing again). Perhaps > it's because a lot of the Pali comms. are for monks who don't need > reminding about impermanence but may still have considerable problems with > lust ? > > I found one sutta where the Buddha teaches the contemplation of death in > the same sense as the normal Tibetan teachings: > > ------------- > Samyutta Nikaya III.25 - Pabbatopama Sutta - The Simile of the Mountains > (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only) > > <> > ""What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and reliable, > were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it please > your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I saw a > great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living > beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a second > man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to come to > you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from the south > and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that > I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, > coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think should > be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a > terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to > obtain -- what should be done?" > > "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of > human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what else should > be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious > deeds?" > > "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and death > are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, great > king, what should be done?" > <> > "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are rolling > in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, > skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well- Gone, the > Teacher, further said this: > > Like massive boulders, > mountains pressing against the sky, > moving in from all sides, > crushing the four directions, > so aging and death > come rolling over living beings: > noble warriors, priests, merchants, > workers, outcastes, & scavengers. > They spare nothing. > They trample everything. > Here elephant troops can hold no ground, > nor can chariots or infantry, > nor can a battle of wits > or wealth win out. > > So a wise person, > seeing his own good, > steadfast, secures confidence > in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. > > One who practices the Dhamma > in thought, word, & deed, > receives praise here on earth > and after death rejoices in heaven. " > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.html > --------------------- > > I suppose the "rejoices in heaven" is the mundane teaching. But that would > be a better preparation than sanitation and denial. > > Best wishes > Lucy 11617 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:40am Subject: A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi, all - I'd just like to mention a relatively unimportant personal matter that has made me happy. For a year or so, I had been visiting, pretty much once every week, with a bhikkhu at a Thai monastery about 45 minutes from my home. He is a lovely man! We never did much ... just talked a bit (his English is limited) and meditated together. On the surface it would seem that I didn't gain much from these visits. But in fact I gained greatly just by being around him, experiencing his calm, joy, and sweetness. Last June he left for Thailand for what was intended to be a 3-month period of intense meditation practice, and also for surgery. After about 2 months I called the Wat and was told that he would yet be away for 3 more months. Two months after that I called again and was told the same story. Then I just held off calling. Months more went by without my calling. After a time, I assumed that he had already been back for a good while, and I skipped calling out of embarrassment at not having kept in touch. (Stupid! Yes, I know. In fact, it turns out that he was away a total of 5 months, having returned last November.) Recently I've been intending to call the Wat, but still putting it off. But today, "my" monk called me! As sweet, as lovely, over the phone as ever, his smile and twinkling eyes audible in his voice, and with not a word about my not having kept in touch, but only with questions as to how I and my family have been, and an invitation for me to come see him again! It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have that in our lives. With metta, Howard P.S. I'm visiting the venerable next Sunday. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11618 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 2:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi Howard, Thanks for sharing the joy. Regards, Victor > Hi, all - > > I'd just like to mention a relatively unimportant personal matter that > has made me happy. > For a year or so, I had been visiting, pretty much once every week, > with a bhikkhu at a Thai monastery about 45 minutes from my home. He is a > lovely man! We never did much ... just talked a bit (his English is limited) > and meditated together. On the surface it would seem that I didn't gain much > from these visits. But in fact I gained greatly just by being around him, > experiencing his calm, joy, and sweetness. > Last June he left for Thailand for what was intended to be a 3-month > period of intense meditation practice, and also for surgery. After about 2 > months I called the Wat and was told that he would yet be away for 3 more > months. Two months after that I called again and was told the same story. > Then I just held off calling. Months more went by without my calling. After a > time, I assumed that he had already been back for a good while, and I skipped > calling out of embarrassment at not having kept in touch. (Stupid! Yes, I > know. In fact, it turns out that he was away a total of 5 months, having > returned last November.) Recently I've been intending to call the Wat, but > still putting it off. But today, "my" monk called me! As sweet, as lovely, > over the phone as ever, his smile and twinkling eyes audible in his voice, > and with not a word about my not having kept in touch, but only with > questions as to how I and my family have been, and an invitation for me to > come see him again! > It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have that > in our lives. > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. I'm visiting the venerable next Sunday. 11619 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death --- Dear Christine, I think it is very good that you are studying about death. I used to find it scary but gradually looked into it - as you are doing - to great profit. The books by Stephen Levine are quite good as an intro. to this subject. And almost all Dhamma is about preparing for death as it all leads to understanding this moment and detachment. Death moment is just like now. We are not afraid of the next moment but we can't control whether it will be seeeing or hearing or .... When we go to sleep there are moments of bhavanga citta. Death moment (cuti citta) is identical to bhavanga (I think that's right). Maranasati (meditation on death) is a way of samatha that I find particulary suitable and calming (for me). Reading about it in the visuddimagga (section on objects of samatha) it sounds technical but after exploring it we can bring it up very often. Just reading the newspaper is a reminder of how present it is. It goes together well with insight into anatta as that gives fearlessness to contemplating death (no one to die). metta robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > Thanks for the sutta Lucy....Now THAT'S the picture that gives me > cold shivers! ...... the reality of non-deviating, inescapable, > inevitable, undeflectable(Sp?), remorseless Death approaching me, is > much scarier than 'blood 'n guts', and much scarier than the > supernatural personifications found in the Christian tradition. > > One thought - the last moments in a persons life are held as very > important to many buddhists, from the point of view of having some > influence (?control) over what happens next (after death). My > understanding from what I see daily, is that most people in the West > (those that haven't died violently, or suddenly from a heart > attack/stroke) die in a drugged murky haze with no control over > bodily functions, last thoughts or emotions. So is there any point in > knowing the exact sequence and names of mind moments etc. that make > up this experience when most people aren't going to aware of it or be > able to influence it in any way? > > And this affects the idea of preparation. With birth there is an > approximate time that it will happen, there are a list of things > known to be efficacious in easing the delivery (diet, exercises, > breathing methods, spinal block and other drugs that don't cloud the > mind etc.), there are 'experts' to guide you through it....... But > with death, apart from having lived a life in line with the Precepts, > I see very little that can help - the time of death is absolutely > unknown, conscious death is extremely rare, and no-one who has > experienced it has written a self-help 'How to die the way you want > to die' manual. > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > Dear Christine, Robert K, all > > > > Been thinking about the contemplation of death and Christine's > comments > > about "sanitised death" in modern society...It's so true that death > is kept > > well hidden from our view in the world most of us live in. It's not > shown, > > not seen, rarely spoken of ... I live next to a small graveyard, > but it's > > all too pretty and quaint, death doesn't show - you've got to fill > in the > > gaps with your imagination --- Seems a missed opportunity a) to > prepare > > for the most natural event in the world (exactly as common as > birth), b) > > cultivate renunciation, c) cherish the present moment --- all sorts > of > > things, really! > > > > I like what Christine writes: > > > As a result of the whole world being so > > > death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people > > > > And that's probably a fatal surprise ! > > > > I noticed that in the Pali comms that I've read (not many), > contemplation > > on death is often used as an antidote to (usually lustful) > attachments. In > > the Tibetan teachings it's more with the intention to remind us > that it's > > coming and move one to Dharma practice (the craving thing again). > Perhaps > > it's because a lot of the Pali comms. are for monks who don't need > > reminding about impermanence but may still have considerable > problems with > > lust ? > > > > I found one sutta where the Buddha teaches the contemplation of > death in > > the same sense as the normal Tibetan teachings: > > > > ------------- > > Samyutta Nikaya III.25 - Pabbatopama Sutta - The Simile of the > Mountains > > (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only) > > > > <> > > ""What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and > reliable, > > were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it > please > > your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I > saw a > > great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing > all living > > beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a > second > > man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to > come to > > you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from > the south > > and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should > know that > > I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the > clouds, > > coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think > should > > be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a > > terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard > to > > obtain -- what should be done?" > > > > "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible > destruction of > > human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what else > should > > be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, > meritorious > > deeds?" > > > > "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and > death > > are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, > great > > king, what should be done?" > > <> > > "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are > rolling > > in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right > conduct, > > skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" > > > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well- > Gone, the > > Teacher, further said this: > > > > Like massive boulders, > > mountains pressing against the sky, > > moving in from all sides, > > crushing the four directions, > > so aging and death > > come rolling over living beings: > > noble warriors, priests, merchants, > > workers, outcastes, & scavengers. > > They spare nothing. > > They trample everything. > > Here elephant troops can hold no ground, > > nor can chariots or infantry, > > nor can a battle of wits > > or wealth win out. > > > > So a wise person, > > seeing his own good, > > steadfast, secures confidence > > in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. > > > > One who practices the Dhamma > > in thought, word, & deed, > > receives praise here on earth > > and after death rejoices in heaven. " > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.html > > --------------------- > > > > I suppose the "rejoices in heaven" is the mundane teaching. But > that would > > be a better preparation than sanitation and denial. > > > > Best wishes > > Lucy 11620 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada VI Nice piece Robert, clear and thorough. Good food, as Nina would say. Larry 11621 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Ratnasuriya) Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Greetings from me too! Endorsing Larry's request, I would appreciate if one could also add where & how to get to the Foundation. I've been to Thailand on official business & may be again. Sumane Rathnasuriya 11622 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Greetings dsg, > > Could someone write a short biography of Khun Sujin and put it in the > files. This would be a good idea. I’m not sure if Nina or anyone else has written or translated one before. Anyway I’ll just put a few quick comments in here first . >I think this would help people understand where you are coming > from. I am particularly interested in did she invent this "study-only" > path or was it handed down from someone else. As I recall, K.Sujin’s teacher was Ajahn Naeb, a well-known Thai Abhidhamma and Meditation teacher. I believe these were taught as aseparate study and practice, but K.Sujin understood the abhidhamma was about practice itself or more precisely, about understanding realities in daily life itself rather than as an intellectual study divorced from practice. K.Sujin is now in her 70s (but very youthful for her age) and lives with a sister and family. >Also, what is "the > Foundation"? For 30years or so, K.Sujin has been giving regular lectures (until quite recently at a temple in Bkk) and these have been recorded and are relayed on the radio within Thailand and neighbouring countries such as Cambodia and Laos and also Mayalsia, I believe. The Foundation is the ‘organisation’ which has developed around these activities. A couple of yrs ago a ‘centre’ was built on some donated land in Bangkok and this is where K.Sujin and other teachers (students of hers) now teach. Usually, when the Foundation is being referred to now, it is this centre. >Who founded it, what is its purpose, what is Khun Sujin's > association with it? The Foundation (like most organisations) has a committee and K.Sujin is the main teacher. The purpose is simply to help people understand the Buddha’s teachings. She has always encouraged everyone to read the texts for themselves and has played a key role in encouraging the translation of the commentaries into Thai (very few of these existed when she started teaching). They now follow the sutta translations in print. >Her message seems to be aimed mostly at Thai > householders but is apparently attracting an international audience as > well; could you expand on this? She is always happy to help anyone regardless of nationality or status. However, as she ‘speaks’ rather than ‘writes’ by habit, inevitably more Thais will hear her. Last time we were in Bkk, I mentioned at lunch that her name was becoming quite well-known by internet and Nina’s books now. She really wasn’t interested at all. If she has a chance to help right now, she’s glad to do so. That’s all. Once I remember spending weeks staying in her house, sharing her bedroom and quite unable to return any of the hospitality. When I mentioned it, she’d just say sincerely “Khun Sarah, your interest in dhamma is the best gift”. She never asks or hints for anything else and if the interest doesn’t continue, she also quite understands. Perhaps some of us on dsg feel that we’ve been very fortunate to have had some of the opportunites we have had to listen to her over many years and as a result would be very glad to share what we can with others. I’m sure this is Nina’s main motivation for writing so profusely and generously making any materials available to anyone. > Does she speak english? yes, though not perfectly...I’ve never had any communication difficulty. She was university educated and when Jon first knew her, she was running a Thai language school too. So he learnt Thai as well as dhamma from her. >What does "khun" > mean? Mr, Mrs, Miss...in Thai everyone addresses everyone else by Khun + first name, hence ‘Khun Sarah’ above. Most Thais address her more respectfully by ‘Ajahn Sujin’ where ‘Ajahn” is a title for a teacher or even more respectfully still by ‘Tan Ajahn’. We all have our habits. She will always say she doesn’t mind at all how anyone addresses her and interest in the dhamma is the greatest respect. When she visited me in England, she asked everyone to simply call her ‘Sujin’ (which means well-spoken, I believe). > Maybe someone else would like to add some questions. Sumane just asked how to get to the Foundation. Sumane, it’s quite tricky the first time (on Thonburi side - old Bangkok). The best thing is if you’re going to Bkk to let Sukin (not to be confused with Sujin) know and he’ll give you the details or let us know and we’ll be happy to give details. They may have these on the new Foundation website being prepared, but I still can’t access this from my mac computer. To try, I think this is the link: http://www.buddhadhamma.com Just a note on your comment about ‘where you are coming from’ addressed to dsg....Really I think the 200 members (including yourself) have all come from different directions via different routes and all make up dsg. A small number of us only have studied with K.Sujin and we may have little in common with each other in other respects. There really isn’t any ‘institution’ here (to coin a Herman term) and like Christine, I’ve always been encouraged to question and test anything I hear.There has never been any suggestion of following any ritual or set format or idea of any kind. Hope this helps a little. Pls ask anything else and perhaps someone will correct me if I've got any details wrong. Sarah ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 11623 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Good friend in dhamma (was: Practice, beings and contact) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Both tradition and instinct are specifically disclaimed by the Buddha in > the Kalamas sutta as a proper basis for judging whether something is the > true dhamma. Thanks, Jon. Robert Ep. 11624 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Dear Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have > that > in our lives. Many thanks for sharing this note....perhaps it is of great import: the ability to appreciate and rejoice in 'genuine goodness' when we are fortunate to have the chance. How many opportunities do we 'miss' in a day? Many, in my case. It sounds as though he'll also welcome the chance to share your company too, Howard. I hope he's well and you have apleasant and wise time together. ********** Here is a link to a wheel publication which includes the Sivaka Sutta you mentioned. I'd be grateful if you'd repeat your point about kamma and causes as I no longer have your original post to hand (just if you feel inclined to do so, of course). Sarah http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html Contemplation of Feeling The Discourse-Grouping on the Feelings (Vedana-Samyutta) Translated from the Pali, with an Introduction by Nyanaponika Thera The Wheel Publication No. 303/304 SL ISSN 0049-7541 21. Sivaka Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!... May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts." ====================================================== 11625 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Herman, --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Thank you for that wonderfully written post. You communicate so well. Agreed and appreciated by us all, I'm sure. > I accept what you say about the intent of people on this list without > hesitation. The pickings are slim out there in Internet Buddhist > Land, and certainly this here place is the cream of the crop. Praise indeed, Herman and your comments and 'wake-up-calls' are an essential spice (‘Variety’ and all that..)in the mixture, just like Erik's chilis;-) I never sent my best wishes to add to others' for your new business. Sincerely hope it goes well and if this dhamma 'family' (doesn't that sound friendlier than 'institution'?;-)) can give you any support over the bumps, just let us know. Meanwhile, look forward to your weather reports whenever we become too complacent or equanimous;-) Actually, this is just what China used to do (pre 1997) whenever they objected or wished to comment on what the British govt was proposing......’stormy weather in Hong Kong...’ and so on. Sarah P.S. Just remembered that I intended to quote the following extract on ‘motion’ from Nina’s Rupas’ when we were last talking (with Rob Ep too, I believe). You may find it interesting/useful. Sorry for the delay. (Howard, I think it also relates well to the discussions on posture): http://www.dhammastudy.com/Rupas1.html ********** “As to the Element of Wind (in Pali: vayo dhatu) or motion, the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 93) defines it as follows (See also Dhammasangani § 648 and Atthasalini II, Book II, Ch III, 332.): ... The air element (wind) has the characteristic of distending. Its function is to cause motion. It is manifested as conveying. We may believe that we can see motion of objects but the rupa which is motion cannot be seen. What we mean by motion as we express it in conventional language is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We can conclude that something has moved because there are different moments of seeing and thinking, and there is association of these different experiences, but that is not the experience of the rupa which is motion. This rupa can be directly experienced through the bodysense. When we touch a body or an object which has a certain resilience, the characteristic of motion or pressure may present itself. These are characteristics of the element of wind. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. As we read in the definition, the function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is manifested as conveying. It is, for example, a condition for the movement of the limbs of the body. However, we should not confuse pictorial ideas with the direct experience of this rupa through the bodysense. The element of wind or motion arises with all kinds of materiality, both of the body and outside the body. There is also motion with dead matter, such as a pot. It performs its function so that the pot holds its shape and does not collapse. Sariputta explained about the internal element of motion: ... And what, your reverences, is the internal element of motion? Whatever is motion, wind, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as winds going upwards, winds going downwards, winds in the abdomen, winds in the belly, winds that shoot across the several limbs, in-breathing, out-breathing, or whatever other thing is motion, wind, is internal.... We may notice pressure inside the body. When its characteristic appears it can be known as only a rupa which is conditioned. As to the words of the sutta, “winds that shoot across the several limbs”, the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 37) explains that these are: “winds (forces) that produce flexing, extending, etc., and are distributed over the limbs and the whole body by means of the network of veins (nerves)”. The element of wind plays its specific role in the strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse, and assumes different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending of the limbs. While we are bending or stretching our arms and legs the element of wind may appear as motion or pressure. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 92): The air element that courses through all the limbs and has the characteristic of moving and distending, being founded upon earth, held together by water, and maintained by fire, distends this body. And this body, being distended by the latter kind of air, does not collapse, but stands erect, and being propelled by the other (motile) air, it shows intimation, and it flexes and extends and it wriggles the hands and feet, doing so in the postures comprising walking, standing, sitting and lying down. So this mechanism of elements carries on like a magic trick, deceiving foolish people with the male and female sex and so on. We are deceived and infatuated by the outward appearance of a man or a woman and we forget that this body is a “mechanism of elements” and that it flexes and wriggles hands and feet because of conditions. ” ================================================= 11626 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesas (Defilements) Dear Layman John, --- johnrloganis wrote: > Christine, > Thank you for your very clear elaboration. > > I had not seen the Kilesas the way you described them. I had wondered > why even immediately after understanding the basic principles of the > Dhamma, after a meditation in which much clarity has been realized, > the most ugly things can pop out most unexpectedly. > > It seems that I must really do more practice and work on making the > Dhamma more dominant in my heart/mind. > > Thank you again, > Layman John > > > "One must not think that these kilesas are little things, which are > > just tacked onto oneself somehow." > Thanks to both of you for your helpful reminders......Yes, the kilesas are so very deep-rooted and I think it's because of one of these kilesa in particular (wrong view) that there's an idea of 'oneself' with kilesa 'tacked' on.....Personally, I find it more encouraging to know they are so deep-rooted and 'not-self' (and therefore of no surprise when they arise) than the reverse view that having studied the basic principles of dhamma, we should be more equanimous in daily life. I don't think we've heard from you before, though obviously you already have good friends like Lucy;-) If we can encourage you, anytime, to say a little more about yourself or interest in the Dhamma, that would be great. This is optional of course;-) Sarah ================================ 11627 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/4/02 12:40:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have > > that > > in our lives. > > Many thanks for sharing this note....perhaps it is of great import: the > ability to appreciate and rejoice in 'genuine goodness' when we are > fortunate to have the chance. How many opportunities do we 'miss' in a > day? Many, in my case. > > It sounds as though he'll also welcome the chance to share your company > too, Howard. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems so. ------------------------------------------------------------ I hope he's well and you have apleasant and wise time> > together. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thanks a lot, Sarah. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ********** > Here is a link to a wheel publication which includes the Sivaka Sutta you > mentioned. I'd be grateful if you'd repeat your point about kamma and > causes as I no longer have your original post to hand (just if you feel > inclined to do so, of course). > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'd be happy to Sarah, but I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring to. Could you say a bit more? ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Sarah > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11628 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear All, I would like to add some of the suttas I find most helpful with regard to reflection on death. (As they are all quite short, hopefully the post won’t run to more than 3 or 4 pages;-). When I hear reminders about death, they remind me how ‘everything is burning’ as the Buddha reminds the housand monks who were formerly the ‘matted-hair ascetics’: ********** The Book of Discipline (IV, Mahavagga, I, The Great Section, 21)* "Monks, everything is burning. And what, monks, is everything that is burning? The eye, monks, is burning, visible objects are burning, seeing-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, in other words the feeling which arises from eye-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I say it is burning with the fire of passion, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of stupidity; it is burning because of birth, ageing, dying, because of grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair. The ear... sounds...the nose...odours... the tongue... tastes... the body... tangible objects... the mind... mental states... mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, in other words the feeling which arises through mind-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I say it is burning with the fire of passion, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of stupidity; it is burning because of birth, ageing, dying, because of grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair. Seeing this, monks, the instructed disciple of the ariyans disregards the eye and he disregards visible objects and he disregards seeing-consciousness and he disregards eye-contact, in other words the feeling which arises from eye-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too he disregards. And he disregards the ear... sounds... the nose... odours... the tongue... tastes...the body... tangible objects... the mind... mental states... mind-consciousness... mind-contact, in other words the feeling that arises from mind-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too he disregards; disregarding, he is dispassionate; through dispassion he is freed; in freedom the knowledge comes to be, "I am freed", and he comprehends: Destroyed is birth, lived is the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such." And while this discourse was being uttered, the minds of these thousand monks were freed from the cankers without grasping." ********** Furthermore, I can never be reminded of the following sutta and the value of reflection and mindfulness on death enough: ********** "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Sixes, Ch II, 9, Mindfulness of Death)* " "Herein, lord, such is my thought: Were I to live but one day and night, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One , much would be done by me-- thus, lord, I make mindfulness of death become". And another said: "I too, lord, make mindfulness become." "How so, monk?" "Herein, lord, such is my thought: Were I to live for a day only, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me...." And another said: "Such is my thought: Were I to live long enough to eat one alms-meal..." And another: "... to munch and swallow four or five morsels..." And another: "... to munch and swallow only one morsel..." And another said: "I too, lord, make mindfulness of death become." "How so, monk?" "Lord, such is my thought: Were I to live long enough to breathe in after breathing out, or to breathe out after breathing in, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me-- thus, lord, I make mindfulness of death become." And when he had thus spoken, the Exalted Onbe said to the monks: "Monks, the monk who makes mindfulness of death become thus: 'Were I to live but one day and night and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One ...' or he who thinks thus: 'Were I to live for a day only ...' or ' long enough to eat one almsmeal...' or "long enough to munch and swallow four or five morsels ..., and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me'- those monks are said to live indolently; slackly they make mindfulness of death become for the destruction of the cankers. But the monk who makes mindfulness of death become thus: 'Were I to live long enough to munch and swallow one morsel...'; and he who thinks thus: 'Were I to live long enough to breathe in after breathing out, or to breathe out after breathing in, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me'- those monks are said to live earnestly; keenly they make mindfulness become for the destruction of the cankers. Wherefore, monks, train yourselves thus: We will live earnestly; keenly will we make mindfulness of death become for the destruction of the cankers. Train yourselves thus, monks." " ********** Finally, the following Suttas form Sutta Nipata are the ones that I found most helpful to read over and over and reflect on when my father died nearly 20yrs ago and which are still so full of potent reminders for me. ********** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3-08a.html Sutta Nipata III.8, -- vv. 574-593 Salla Sutta (The Arrow) (WH 82), translated by John D. Ireland ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Unindicated and unknown is the length of life of those subject to death. Life is difficult and brief and bound up with suffering. There is no means by which those who are born will not die. Having reached old age, there is death. This is the natural course for a living being. With ripe fruits there is the constant danger that they will fall. In the same way, for those born and subject to death, there is always the fear of dying. Just as the pots made by a potter all end by being broken, so death is (the breaking up) of life. "The young and old, the foolish and the wise, all are stopped short by the power of death, all finally end in death. Of those overcome by death and passing to another world, a father cannot hold back his son, nor relatives a relation. See! While the relatives are looking on and weeping, one by one each mortal is led away like an ox to slaughter. "In this manner the world is afflicted by death and decay. But the wise do not grieve, having realized the nature of the world. You do not know the path by which they came or departed. Not seeing either end you lament in vain. If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it. Only a fool would harm himself. Yet through weeping and sorrowing the mind does not become calm, but still more suffering is produced, the body is harmed and one becomes lean and pale, one merely hurts oneself. One cannot protect a departed one (peta) by that means. To grieve is in vain. "By not abandoning sorrow a being simply undergoes more suffering. Bewailing the dead he comes under the sway of sorrow. See other men faring according to their deeds! Hence beings tremble here with fear when they come into the power of death. Whatever they imagine, it (turns out) quite different from that. This is the sort of disappointment that exists. Look at the nature of the world! If a man lives for a hundred years, or even more, finally, he is separated from his circle of relatives and gives up his life in the end. Therefore, having listened to the Arahant,[1] one should give up lamenting. Seeing a dead body, one should know, "He will not be met by me again." As the fire in a burning house is extinguished with water, so a wise, discriminating, learned and sensible man should quickly drive away the sorrow that arises, as the wind (blows off) a piece of cotton. He who seeks happiness should withdraw the arrow: his own lamentations, longings and grief. "With the arrow withdrawn, unattached, he would attain to peace of mind; and when all sorrow has been transcended he is sorrow-free and has realized Nibbana. " ********* http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-06a.html Sutta Nipata IV.6 Jara Sutta (On Decay)-- vv. 804-813 (WH 82), ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Short indeed is this life, this side of a hundred years one dies; whoever lives long even he dies from old age. People grieve for things they are attached to, yet there exist no permanent possessions but just a state of (constant) separation. Seeing this one should no longer live the household life. That which a man imagines to be his will disappear at death. Knowing this a wise man will have no attachment (to anything). "As a man awakened from sleep no longer sees what happened in his dream, similarly one does not see a loved one who is dead. Those people who were seen and heard and called by their names as such and such, only their names remain when they have passed away. Those greedy for objects of attachment do not abandon sorrow, grief and avarice, but sages having got rid of possessions, live perceiving security. For a bhikkhu with a detached mind, living in a secluded dwelling, it is right, they say, that he no longer shows himself in the abodes (of existence). "A sage who is completely independent does not make close friends or enemies. In him sorrow and selfishness do not stay, like water on a lotus leaf. As a lotus is not wetted by water, so a sage is not affected by what is seen or heard, nor by what is perceived by the other senses. A wise man is not deluded by what is perceived by the senses. He does not expect purity by any other way.He is neither pleased nor is he repelled (by the six sense-objects)." ********** Best wishes, Sarah .......... * The first two suttas can be read with more discussion by Nina in “Introduction to the Buddhist Scriptures’ which is where I copied these translations from. http://www.abhidhamma.org/ibs1.html ====================================================== 11629 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 0:00am Subject: Re: Paticcasamuppada VI Dear Robert, I am grateful for your continuing posts on Paticcasamuppada.....I take what learning I can from them (relative to my ability to understand). I have to say that I feel a tiny bit discouraged, and have a certain sympathy for Moliyaphagguna - A Bhikkhu whose life was dedicated to following the Path. I think that if those born in the same time frame as a Buddha + born in geographical proximity + understanding the language in which the Buddha spoke + being in the presence of a teaching Buddha still fail to understand ...... well, the odds seem somewhat stacked against those of lesser talent, thousands of years from the presence of a teaching Buddha, a couple of translations away from the original language...and already 'in the lower life'..... And was Moliyaphagguna really 'vainly searching for a self in the Paticcasamuppada'? Perhaps he was merely searching for an explanation he could understand. Forget about whether anything is reborn, or whether everything is blotted out at death.......No need for an 'eternalist/annihilationist debate - it would be enough to know "If no self - then how are the khandas organised during their lifetime into acting coherently and purposefully?" - a managerial khanda, but don't call it self? You say: "It may be easy enough to think or say 'There is no self' but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in subtle or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me thinking or speaking we are caught in the whirl of view." I would agree that it is easy enough to say 'There is no self' ..... It is much easier to play the game and pretend understanding than to constantly seek clarification and understanding of the same old topics. And maybe throw formal meditation in as well - go to a few retreats - at least I could feel I was 'in control' of some facet, and 'doing something'....with the side benefit of basking in the warm glow of calm and serenity, not to mention appoval from the majority.......So - in actual fact, it is 'easier' to give up questioning altogether and just 'have faith'. <<<'These hallucinations are gradually uprooted as they are seen and if satifpatthana is correctly developed.'>>> If only it were possible to state exactly how satipatthana is correctly developed....Study and contact with Admirable Friends? Study, well, O.K. I'm doing that to the best of my ability.....but who knows if it is helping or hindering.......Just filling my head with words perhaps, and no filter on what ideas I take up from it....... I would not have liked my children to have done unsupervised, unstructured, self-chosen study to prepare them for one life - and the stakes here are allegedly much higher. Admirable Friends ?, I have to say I've been lucky here......Though a more considerate group would have managed to live closer :-) Do I seem to be dwelling in self-pity?? That must mean it's Monday...... :-) Yes, I do know that it is of inestimable value to be alive while the Teachings are still intact and available. But what use is availability without understanding...... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Group, > A little more: > The Paticcasamuppada overturns the idea that it is the same consciousness > (vinnana, citta) 'that travels and traverses' the round of rebirths > (M.38). Instead a series of discrete moments, eye-conciousness > (cakkhu-vinnana), ear-consciousness, nose-consciouness, > tongue-consciousness, body-consciouness, and mind consciousness arise; > each different than the preceeding one. The person uninstructed in the > Buddha's law assumes that he is consciousness (or any of the other > khandas) or consciousness is apart from him, or is in him, or is not > 'him'but'him' is something else. The wise disciple sees it differently. He > sees whatever khanda arises as "a disease, a boil, a dart, as calamity, as > an affliction, as alien, as no protection, as empty, as void, as having no > core, as Mara's bait, as not self...."Patisambhidhimagga XXIX8 > This is hard to comprehend and so even some who have heard the Buddha's > teaching misunderstand and assume (perhaps in disguised ways) that avijja > or formations or feelings or the other links on the path are something > happening to 'them' or... > (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) > "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. > Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' > Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes > contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the > valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to > be]; with contact as condition feeling'. > Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote > > And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna vainly searching > for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be > 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who has > sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the > eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are > volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional > formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there > are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, cut > off at the root...."endquote. The Visuddhimagga notes about the > development of vipassana: "there is no removal of false view in one who > takes it thus "I see with insight, my insight'..there is removal of false > view in one who takes it thus 'only formations see formations with > insight, comprehend, define, discern and delimit them." XX83 > Venerable Moliyaphagguna later left the order of monks (SN 12:32.) The > commentary notes that this is because he had not attained any of the paths > (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami , arahant) "for if he had attained them he > would not have reverted to the lower life". > > So difficult is it to step out of this perversion of view (vipallasa). > Thinking thinks "'I' have insight, 'I' see or 'I' am ignorant, 'I' don't > see" not realising that the thinking is occuring without any agent. There > is no knower behind the knowing, no self continuing along the cycle. There > are empty factors arising and ceasing bound momentarily only by the > conditions of the dependent origination itself. > > It should be noted that although there is no self this does not mean that > terms such as I, mine and self are to be discarded. These are necessary > for communication even when discussing Dhamma. Thus the Buddha and > arahants use them too; but without any misconceptions that they refer to > something real. > "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, > designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes > use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > For us, on the otherhand, it may be easy enough to think or say 'There is > no self' but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in > subtle or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me' thinking or speaking > we are caught in the whirl of view. These hallucinations are gradually > uprooted as they are seen and if satipatthana is correctly developed. > > It is natural enough, having confidence in the sublime Dhamma of the > Buddha, that one wishes to bring the round to a quick halt: > "In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject > to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by > wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings > subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to > aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & > despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by > wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants." > Mahasatipatthana sutta. > > > > robert 11630 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 0:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'd be happy to Sarah, but I'm afraid I don't know what you are > referring to. Could you say a bit more? > ----------------------------------------------------------- OK, let me cut and paste after checking back..sorry, my delays must be confusing (or even irksome);-) I think it is your statement about ‘harm being done to innocent beings’ in the original post at the end and how this is supported in the texts that I am interested to hear more about. I know it’s a particularly sensitive topic. While it's true that we can never say that kamma is the only cause, whenever there is 'harm', kamma must have been a major cause as I understand. Best wishes, Sarah (no need to follow up if you'd prefer to leave it for now, of course. =================================================== Howard: Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? I'll check "Buddhadhamma" again, which is where the reference came from, and I'll also check the Dhammapada as well. Perhaps Ven Payutto made an error. As I recall, somebody quoted a similar piece involving Sivaka from an entirely different source. (I think I may have commented on this at the time as an "oddity".) If I fail to get back to you on this soon (I'm a drop busy at the moment), please do remind me about it. .......... Sarah: > I just got round to checking your reference in the following post as I was > curious to follow this line. However, I can't find it under Dhp 276 which > is about the 8fold path;-) Neither is under the Pali ref. Maybe you could > kindly check it..sorry for the delay. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Christine - > > Here is a reference for you. In his wonderful book Buddhadhamma, > the > renowned Thai scholar-monk, Phra Prayudh Payutto discusses this issue. > He > lists as the first of what the Buddha called "three heretical doctrines" > the > doctrine of "Pubbekatahetuvaada (past-action determinism) - believing > that > all sukha and dukkha are related to past kamma (or pubbekatavaada, for > short)" Going into further detail on this, he quotes the Buddha from > Dhammapada 276 as follows: "Truly, Sivaka, some sensations arise having > goodness as their place of origin ... some arise from the fluctuation of > the > seasons ... some arise from a lack of consistent behavior ... some arise > from > being the victim of bad deeds ... some arise from the fruits of > kamma....If > any recluses and brahmins assert or believe that 'People have sensations > - be > they sukha or dukkha, non-sukha or non-dukkha - due to past kamma,' ... > I can > say that this is the fault of those recluses and brahmins themselves." > I think this is rather clear, don't you? In particular, one can see the > connection between the Buddha's statement that "some arise from being > the > victim of bad deeds" and my statement in my last post on this subject to > the > effect that "Other beings can initiate willful action against beings > which > have consequences for those beings. Harm CAN be done to innocent > beings." I > have based my position on what the Buddha said, not only on my own > deductions. =========================================================== 11631 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Robert, Thanks for sharing that you also used to find death scary ...... it helps to know this just as much as it helps to know you don't have the fear now. Truly, we aren't afraid of the next moment, as you say. Though I think this may be because we believe the next moment is a fairly predictable continuation of the same conditions as now. However, the moment after death is 'into unknown territory'......perhaps (or most certainly) birth in another plane..... I'm glad you mentioned Stephen Levines' name - I've had a quick read of a few excerpts on the Net. One which seem worth further searching for is "Who Dies?: An Investigation of Conscious Living and Conscious Dying". You mention that reading the newspaper is a reminder of how present death is - but also for those like me it can be: "At home in our favorite easy chair, we read in the newspaper of five dying in a hotel fire in Cleveland, of ten killed in a bus accident on the freeway. Of three thousand crushed in an earthquake in Italy. Of the death of Nobel laureates in their laboratories. And of murderers in the electric chair. We partake of the "survivor's news," reinforcing the idea that "everyone dies but me." Sitting there, reading of the death of others, reassures us of our survivorship, of our immortality. The misfortune of others makes up a large percentage of the front page, creating the illusion of our good fortune. Seldom do we use the news of another's death as a recognition of the impermanence of all things, that all changes as it will." (Excerpt from "Who Dies?"). Have also checked the Visuddimagga - hopefully you're referring to III,105f - will have a read later on. thanks and metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > I think it is very good that you are studying about death. I used to > find it scary but gradually looked into it - as you are doing - to > great profit. > The books by Stephen Levine are quite good as an intro. to this > subject. And almost all Dhamma is about preparing for death as it > all leads to understanding this moment and detachment. Death moment > is just like now. We are not afraid of the next moment but we can't > control whether it will be seeeing or hearing or .... > When we go to sleep there are moments of bhavanga citta. Death moment > (cuti citta) is identical to bhavanga (I think that's right). > > Maranasati (meditation on death) is a way of samatha that I find > particulary suitable and calming (for me). Reading about it in the > visuddimagga (section on objects of samatha) it sounds technical but > after exploring it we can bring it up very often. Just reading the > newspaper is a reminder of how present it is. It goes together well > with insight into anatta as that gives fearlessness to contemplating > death (no one to die). > metta > robert > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > Thanks for the sutta Lucy....Now THAT'S the picture that gives me > > cold shivers! ...... the reality of non-deviating, inescapable, > > inevitable, undeflectable(Sp?), remorseless Death approaching me, > is > > much scarier than 'blood 'n guts', and much scarier than the > > supernatural personifications found in the Christian tradition. > > > > One thought - the last moments in a persons life are held as very > > important to many buddhists, from the point of view of having some > > influence (?control) over what happens next (after death). My > > understanding from what I see daily, is that most people in the > West > > (those that haven't died violently, or suddenly from a heart > > attack/stroke) die in a drugged murky haze with no control over > > bodily functions, last thoughts or emotions. So is there any point > in > > knowing the exact sequence and names of mind moments etc. that make > > up this experience when most people aren't going to aware of it or > be > > able to influence it in any way? > > > > And this affects the idea of preparation. With birth there is an > > approximate time that it will happen, there are a list of things > > known to be efficacious in easing the delivery (diet, exercises, > > breathing methods, spinal block and other drugs that don't cloud > the > > mind etc.), there are 'experts' to guide you through it....... But > > with death, apart from having lived a life in line with the > Precepts, > > I see very little that can help - the time of death is absolutely > > unknown, conscious death is extremely rare, and no-one who has > > experienced it has written a self-help 'How to die the way you want > > to die' manual. > > > > metta, > > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > > Dear Christine, Robert K, all 11632 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 1:31am Subject: Re: Paticcasamuppada VI -- Dear Christine, I think Ven. Moliyaphagunna didn't lose anything by becoming a monk and meeting the Buddha. They don't say about his final destination though...I guess it is unknown. All of us are in samsara together and so we should develop compassion, metta and mudita and equanimity to all, even ants and cockroaches. In this case upekka , equanimity is needed because we cannot help the Venerable: We should try to understand that conditions work their way, and by each his own kamma is done. It doesn't help anyone to have sadness about the strife of samsara - but with more understanding we can find ways to help those who we might help. There is the case of saccaka (I think that was his name) who rejected the teachings on anatta direct from the Buddha. But the commentary says that a few hundred years later he was reborn in Sri lanka (I forget his intervening rebirth(s) and became a monk, became an arahant who could know his past lives . He wasn't fully ready at the time the Buddha spoke to him, but the words still helped to condition understanding that finally came to climax. Devadatta is another - he has a firm prediction to become a Pacekka-Buddha after he emerges from apaya. So who knows, ven. Moliyaphagunna may be closer than we think to final nibbana. The rest of your post speaks of your growing insight to me Christine. It is never as much as "we" want but we should be grateful for just a little. You see the objects of satipatthana are just these khandhas right here and now. The 'sad' khandhas are part of Paticcasamuppada (sorrow, lamentation.....) ; we should take the chance to understand them at the moments they arise, they too are conditioned and empty of self. If we can do that then a barrier lifts and one knows that any object is fine to study, to insight. And then all of life becomes a series of opportunities to investigate and we feel much freer because there is not the same urge to have special objects. One thinks 'let anything come, it can be known'. ....... Now having said that I want to add that mostly I want things to be pleasant. I am not as brave as that statement sounds, I write to encourage myself. Here is a sutta you might appreciate: Anguttara Nikaya Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER Blessings RETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm (Dhamma) through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight. Again, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas, etc. He thus listens to; [as above] and is reborn in an assembly of devas. There the blissful ones do not recite to him the stanzas of the Norm ; but a brother possessed of psychic powers, who has mastered his mind, proclaims the Norm to the assembly of devas. Then this thought occurs to him (the former) This is indeed that Norm and Discipline, according to which I lived the holy life in my previous existence.' Brethren, slow is the arising of mindfulness. Yet that being quickly achieves distinction therein. Brethren, just as a person skilled in the sounds of drums, having entered a road, hears the sound of a drum, and has no doubt or uncertainty as to whether it is the sound of a drum or not. Then he concludes that it is surely the sound of a drum. Just so, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas, etc. Then he listens to [as above]. Then indeed that being quickly achieves distinction therein. Brethren, this is the second blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight.... 1 Diññiyà,. Comy. says 'himself penetrates it by his wisdom both as regards sense and cause.' 3 Comy. says 'he is still a puthujjana'' One dying without reaching the Paths is said to die with mindfulness not established. 4 Comy`. He becomes nibbàna-gàmin (bound for the goal).' http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I am grateful for your continuing posts on Paticcasamuppada.....I > take what learning I can from them (relative to my ability to > understand). > > I have to say that I feel a tiny bit discouraged, and have a certain > sympathy for Moliyaphagguna - A Bhikkhu whose life was dedicated to > following the Path. I think that if those born in the same time > frame as a Buddha + born in geographical proximity + > understanding the language in which the Buddha spoke + being in the > presence of a teaching Buddha still fail to understand ...... well, > the odds seem somewhat stacked against those of lesser talent, > thousands of years from the presence of a teaching Buddha, a couple > of translations away from the original language...and already 'in > the lower life'..... > > And was Moliyaphagguna really 'vainly searching for a self in the > Paticcasamuppada'? Perhaps he was merely searching for an > explanation he could understand. > Forget about whether anything is reborn, or whether everything is > blotted out at death.......No need for an 'eternalist/annihilationist > debate - it would be enough to know "If no self - then how are the > khandas organised during their lifetime into acting coherently and > purposefully?" - a managerial khanda, but don't call it self? > > You say: "It may be easy enough to think or say 'There is no self' > but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in subtle > or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me thinking or speaking we > are caught in the whirl of view." > I would agree that it is easy enough to say 'There is no > self' ..... It is much easier to play the game and pretend > understanding than to constantly seek clarification and understanding > of the same old topics. And maybe throw formal meditation in as > well - go to a few retreats - at least I could feel I was 'in > control' of some facet, and 'doing something'....with the side > benefit of basking in the warm glow of calm and serenity, not to > mention appoval from the majority.......So - in actual fact, it > is 'easier' to give up questioning altogether and just 'have faith'. > <<<'These hallucinations are gradually uprooted as they are seen and > if satifpatthana is correctly developed.'>>> > If only it were possible to state exactly how satipatthana is > correctly developed....Study and contact with Admirable Friends? > Study, well, O.K. I'm doing that to the best of my ability.....but > who knows if it is helping or hindering.......Just filling my head > with words perhaps, and no filter on what ideas I take up from > it....... I would not have liked my children to have done > unsupervised, unstructured, self-chosen study to prepare them for one > life - and the stakes here are allegedly much higher. > Admirable Friends ?, I have to say I've been lucky here......Though a > more considerate group would have managed to live closer :-) > > Do I seem to be dwelling in self-pity?? That must mean it's > Monday...... :-) > > Yes, I do know that it is of inestimable value to be alive while the > Teachings are still intact and available. But what use is > availability without understanding...... > metta, > Christine > > --- 11633 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death -- Dear Christine, Yep, 'Who dies' is the book I was thinking of. The section in the Visudd. is VIII 1-41 (about 10 pages). It helps that you mentioned the "survivors news'. I think the Visudd. notes that this kind of thinking is not maranasati (meditation on death). For it to be real it should impact on us as 'I too will soon be like them'. If it is done correctly it comes with calm and detachment towards the khandhas. best robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > Thanks for sharing that you also used to find death scary ...... it > helps to know this just as much as it helps to know you don't have > the fear now. Truly, we aren't afraid of the next moment, as you > say. Though I think this may be because we believe the next moment > is a fairly predictable continuation of the same conditions as now. > However, the moment after death is 'into unknown > territory'......perhaps (or most certainly) birth in another > plane..... > I'm glad you mentioned Stephen Levines' name - I've had a quick read > of a few excerpts on the Net. One which seem worth further searching > for is "Who Dies?: An Investigation of Conscious Living and Conscious > Dying". > You mention that reading the newspaper is a reminder of how present > death is - but also for those like me it can be: > > "At home in our favorite easy chair, we read in the newspaper of five > dying in a hotel fire in Cleveland, of ten killed in a bus accident > on the freeway. Of three thousand crushed in an earthquake in Italy. > Of the death of Nobel laureates in their laboratories. And of > murderers in the electric chair. We partake of the "survivor's news," > reinforcing the idea that "everyone dies but me." Sitting there, > reading of the death of others, reassures us of our survivorship, of > our immortality. The misfortune of others makes up a large percentage > of the front page, creating the illusion of our good fortune. Seldom > do we use the news of another's death as a recognition of the > impermanence of all things, that all changes as it will." (Excerpt > from "Who Dies?"). > > Have also checked the Visuddimagga - hopefully you're referring to > III,105f - will have a read later on. > > thanks and metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear Christine, > > I think it is very good that you are studying about death. I used > to > > find it scary but gradually looked into it - as you are doing - to > > great profit. > > The books by Stephen Levine are quite good as an intro. to this > > subject. And almost all Dhamma is about preparing for death as it > > all leads to understanding this moment and detachment. Death moment > > is just like now. We are not afraid of the next moment but we can't > > control whether it will be seeeing or hearing or .... > > When we go to sleep there are moments of bhavanga citta. Death > moment > > (cuti citta) is identical to bhavanga (I think that's right). > > > > Maranasati (meditation on death) is a way of samatha that I find > > particulary suitable and calming (for me). Reading about it in the > > visuddimagga (section on objects of samatha) it sounds technical > but > > after exploring it we can bring it up very often. Just reading the > > newspaper is a reminder of how present it is. It goes together well 11634 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 2:55am Subject: Re: A Personal Note of No Great Import Howard, thanks for sharing the Joy .... it brightened up my Monday... One other unexpected pleasure came my way as well, so I'll share a little excerpt in thanks for being uplifted by your news. Just a part of a poem - found when looking for readings on Time and The Present Moment - also, like your news, Dhamma related <-(that bit's for the moderators :-)) Excerpts from "Now and Then" June 18, 1995 Each and every morning, first this spring and now this summer, a house wren calls out. He calls out, "I am this house wren and this is my house. Stay away." His house is a hole in the wall of the house neighbouring this building. It is a brick wall that faces onto and adjoins the monastery garden. The house wren sits in this hole sometimes, and there he calls out his message. Sometimes, however, he sits amongst the branches and leaves of the sumac tree. Sometimes he sits on the wires. Now he is here and now he's there. When here, it is here, now. When there, it is then. But when "then" was "now," "there" was "here." Whenever anything happens it happens now and "now" is this "happening." Each moment, when it is this moment, is right now. But "then" was once "now" and "right now" tick tick tick is now "then." This moment is not the past moment, not the future moment but in this moment what happens as this moment both shows and hides the past. The bird was "there" and now is "here." The future, however. seems to be utterly hidden. We can have some very small sense of the future, in that, we can know, somewhat, the future completion of the motion of lifting, placing, and setting the foot. But we might die before the foot makes contact with the next stair and go tumbling down. We don't know. We don't know. The future is that hidden. Because it is so hidden from us, we can engage in all manner of speculation. We can lose ourselves in all manner of hopes and fears. We can imagine future glories, or complete and abject failure, or any combination thereof... And so it can seem to us that time moves as past, present and future. Each moment has a past and a future. Each moment is this moment and there is only this moment. But each moment, when it is this moment, is only this moment. And this moment contains within itself past and future. But "past" and "future" only have meaning when measured from this moment; and this moment has no width. It has no depth. There is nothing that is this moment. There is only this presencing, this activity of Experiencing that is happening everywhere right now. --------------------- We understand nothing about time because we understand nothing about this moment. ---------------------- Time is not merely something which "passes." "It is the utter and radical impermanence that makes life possible so that when you breathe in you don't have to hold it forever and ever. You can breathe out. And when you breathe out there is room to breathe in. And this impermanence is so radical that it must be understood not as some thing which happens "to" things but as the activity, the presencing, of Reality." ------------------------------ then, knowing that you don't know what anything is becomes such an open ended questioning that it opens into wonder. And when this wonder is unfolded in each moment of your life, not just your "practice" but your life, when you understand that "practice" is your life, when you are practising your life, then the doubt which became questioning, which became wonder, becomes understanding. http://www.wwzc.org/teisho/wildTime.htm --------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I'd just like to mention a relatively unimportant personal matter that > has made me happy. 11635 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Ratnasuriya) Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Sarah, Thanks for info on Khun Sujin & the Foundation. Yes, I'm aware of difficulty in finding way in BKK. I will contact DSG before next visit. Sumane Rathnasuriya 11636 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Herman ---egberdina wrote: > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > tradition. The problem I have with your posts, Herman, is that I'm never sure when you're being sarcastic, cynical or the like!! So I hope you don't mind if pass on this bit, in case I've read you wrongly. > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear? However, I fairly sure I'm right in seeing some disapproval here ;-)). Specifically, disapproval of some people's posts (including, and perhaps especially, mine) on the role of jhana in relation to the Noble Eightfold Path. Here's a thought for you to consider, then. If someone was very interested in all aspects of sila but appeared to have no interest in samatha (a higher form of kusala), and you tried to explain to them the benefits of developing samatha, would that be dissuading them from the practice of sila? And if the person said, well actually samatha is my ultimate goal but it says here in the texts that one needs to have good sila in order to develop high levels of samatha, so I'm going to develop better sila first, you might then say to him/her, yes, but by learning about the development of samatha one also learns about the development of sila, and to an even more refined degree than just by studying about sila, because samatha requires a detailed discernment of the difference between even the subtlest moments of kusala and akusala. Now suppose that person is unable to get the point, and doesn't appreciate that to develop samatha is necessarily to develop sila too, and insists on trying to have better sila first as a basis for samatha, would that view not constitute a hindrance to his development of samatha (his ultimate goal)? To my understanding, a similar sort of relationship applies as between samatha and vipassana. A person who is developing vipassana is also developing samatha (samatha being the tranquillity associated with kusala and accompanied by panna), and all the Right Concentration necessary for insight and, eventually, enlightenment. Always enjoy your provocative posts, Herman. Jon 11637 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Rob --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they > really > > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the > object of > > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. And > if the > > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the > object would > > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be > *conceptualising > > about dhammas*. All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle > akusala > > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is > bound > > up with akusala. > > > ____________ > > Dear Jon, > I think the object of attention could be a paramattha dhamma. For > example , painful feeling, or heat. But they would be experienced not > as they truly are, but in a distorted way (vipallasa). > best wishes > robert Thanks for these comments, Rob. You may well be right, but I cant think of any way of checking this point in the texts (can you?). Fortunately (for me, I mean), I don’t think this affects the point I was trying to make to Howard, namely that moments of directed attention to dhammas or what we take for dhammas are likely not to be moments of directly knowing dhammas as they really are. Thanks anyway. I will avoid being categorical on this point until I have confirmed one way or the other. Jon 11638 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > So to recap, whenever there is directed attention/observation it is > mostly > > with an idea of self or craving (and thanks for identifying this other > > important ingredient in the mix, Howard). > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What I said was the following, Jon: > "I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there > be a > strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved." > Now, Jon, saying that there *could* be a strong sense of self and > > there *could* also be strong craving involved, is a far cry from saying > "whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly with an > idea > of self or craving." Firstly, my apologies if I misunderstood your position, Howard. (To be honest, I'm not convinced I'm guilty as charged, but I'm not going to pursue this -- let's move on!). > In fact, it is my understanding that when a backgound > layer of calm and nonreactiveness is in place as the result of an > ongoing > concentration practice, directed attention/observation can be relatively > free > of a sense of self and almost completely free of craving. The concept of a 'background layer of calm and non-reactiveness' is a novel one to me. I am doubtful that it finds support in the texts. Also, I would be interested to know what you see as being the significance of the 'non-reactiveness' (and what dhamma would this be, I wonder?). There seems to be an idea here that a concentration practice that leads to normal reactions being replaced by non-reactiveness (presumably because of suppression at some level or other) is or is likely to be a form of kusala, but I doubt that this would be so, for much the same reasons as mentioned in the context of directed attention (i.e., idea of self, craving). By 'concentration practice' you refer to samatha bhavana, I think. Samatha bhavana is the development of the tranquillity that is associated with kusala (not concentration as such) and is developed when kusala citta is accompanied by panna of the appropriate level. It's true that highly developed samatha can lead to the temporary suppression of the 5 hindrances. However, the idea that such suppression is a condition, necessary or otherwise, for the development of satipatthana, is one of those 'logical' deductions that in fact is not supported by the texts themselves, to my knowledge (any references would be welcome) In any event, it is I think important to bear in mind that the 5 hindrances do not include the wrong view that is the 'sense of self' (your post above). The significance of this should be evident. It measn that the suppression of the hindrances (something that constitutes such a significant aspect of some people's idea of the development of the path) can have no impact as regards the defilement of wrong view -- yet wrong view is one of the defilements to be eradicated at the first level of enlightenment. I think I've said enough for one post! I'll get back to you one the rest later. Jon > In fact, this is, > as I see it, the purpose of Right Concentration, which is defined again > and > again in the suttas as the attaining of the first four jhanas. > In any case, Jon, the Buddha never taught anyone to just wait > until > *somehow* conditions arose for wisdom to appear. The Buddha taught the > conscious, deliberate, and determined practice of right behavior, right > meditation (including both the cultivation of calm and insight), and > wisdom > (at the intellectual level, by study of the dhamma, and at the ultimate > level > as a consequence of all the rest). > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they > really > > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The sense of self disappears only with the attainment of complete > > enlightenment. But dhammas can come to be known as they are, that is by > wisdom, as a consequence of a combination of right behavior, > meditation, and > right understanding, and mindfulness can be developed while one is still > a > worldling. If that were not so, there would be no escape from samsara, > and > the Buddha's teaching would be a fraud. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the object > of > > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My *experience* is that this is just not so. When concentration, > calm, > and mindfulness are made very strong by extended practice, one *can* see > > dhammas directly, and not through the mediation of concept, and their > impermanence and insubstantiality become clear. In fact, it is amazing > at > times that things in reality are not at all what they seem to be through > the > mediation of concepts. It is definitely possible to see that "our world" > is > one big conceptual magic show. It *is* possible to see through the > trickery! > (But not by just waiting for conditions to "somehow" arise, and not by > just > *reading* about the way things really are.) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > And if the> > > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the object > would > > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be > *conceptualising > > about dhammas*. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And you know this pessimistic "fact" how? > ------------------------------------------------------------- > All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle akusala> > > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is > bound > > up with akusala. > > > > I think it goes without saying that a 'practice' that is in effect > moments > > of akusala could never lead to (be a condition for) the arising of > kusala, > > particularly kusala of the kind that is awareness or insight. > > > > I would be interested to hear your take on this, Howard. > > > > Jon > > > =============================== > With metta, > Howard 11639 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Victor --- Victor Yu wrote: > Jon, > > Is nama permanent or impermanent? > > Regards, > Victor Hmm. You've got me worried here, Victor. I know you're not asking me because you don't know the answer... It must be something to do with my post, but I really can't see the connection. Anyway, since I have a 50% chance of getting this right, let me say 'impermanent' ;-)). Jon > > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, > because > > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. Only the > > mental factor of insight (panna) can see by direct knowledge this > > characteristic, and even then it is only highly developed insight that > > sees this. The beginning stage of insight is to see realities as > either > > nama or rupa, and even this cannot begin without a firm intellectual > grasp > > of what the teachings have to say on this. > > > > The world as we experience it is, in terms of rupas, merely 7 in > number. > > > > Jon 11640 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) -- Dear Jon, I thought about it some more. I think it depends on what we mean by experienced. All day there is the experience of paramattha dhammas in the sense that for example seeing is happening now. But the mental processes after the seeing are almost always concept. When it comes to things like sensations in the body such as hot or cold it can seem like there is direct understanding, without any concept, but as you have been saying it is not as easy as it appears. In fact one definition of avijja notes that it runs among concepts but doesn't run among paramattha dhammas - which certainly supports what you said. best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > > > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they > > really > > > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > > > > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the > > object of > > > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. And > > if the > > > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the > > object would > > > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be > > *conceptualising > > > about dhammas*. All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle > > akusala > > > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is > > bound > > > up with akusala. > > > > ____________ > > > > Dear Jon, > > I think the object of attention could be a paramattha dhamma. For > > example , painful feeling, or heat. But they would be experienced not > > as they truly are, but in a distorted way (vipallasa). > > best wishes > > robert > > > Thanks for these comments, Rob. You may well be right, but I cant think > of any way of checking this point in the texts (can you?). > > Fortunately (for me, I mean), I don't think this affects the point I was > trying to make to Howard, namely that moments of directed attention to > dhammas or what we take for dhammas are likely not to be moments of > directly knowing dhammas as they really are. > > Thanks anyway. I will avoid being categorical on this point until I have > confirmed one way or the other. > > Jon > > > 11641 From: Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Hi again, Jon - Just one more point. The Buddha said that all he taught was suffering and the end of suffering. He also said that his teaching consisted only of the handful of leaves needed for liberation. He included Right Concentration,*repeatedly defined in the suttas as the first four jhanas*, as one of the eight steps of his program. The conclusion is immediate. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11642 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesas (Defilements) John Hello and welcome from me. Thanks for coming in on this interesting thread of Christine's. --- johnrloganis wrote: > Christine, > Thank you for your very clear elaboration. > > I had not seen the Kilesas the way you described them. I had wondered > why even immediately after understanding the basic principles of the > Dhamma, after a meditation in which much clarity has been realized, > the most ugly things can pop out most unexpectedly. This is a useful observation of a phenomenon that I suspect some people choose not to acknowledge. It is natural to want see a reduction in the kilesa that are so apparent in our lives, and having embarked on a meditation practice designed to achieve this, some may be unwilling to face up to a the reality that nothing has changed. I don't wish to be discouraging, but it is my understanding that the underlying kilesa that constitute the ‘ugly things popping up in our lives’ can be attenuated only by the development of insight, and that this is such a gradual thing that progress is barely perceptible. However, I believe it is better to be forewarned about this than to become discouraged or, worse still, disillusioned further down the line because of dashed expectations. (And if I’m wrong and insight can be developed more quickly than I think, then so much the better!) > It seems that I must really do more practice and work on making the > Dhamma more dominant in my heart/mind. I appreciate your resolve here, John. I hope you will find this list useful in channelling your efforts in the right direction. We look forward to hearing more from you. Jon 11643 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada VI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" >... There > is no knower behind the knowing, no self continuing along the cycle. There > are empty factors arising and ceasing bound momentarily only by the > conditions of the dependent origination itself. > Last Saturday I went for a walk along the Conwy River, it was flowing fierce with all the recent rains... It made me think about paticcasamuppada and "self" - There are some similarities with a river, aren't there? A river is a succession of infinite molecules of water, each molecule causing the next molecule to follow and take its place. It always looks like "a river" and like "water" but the water molecules are never the same - even in the most infinitesimal lapse of time. And then there is the river bed - furrows carved on rocks by the flowing water. Seems so much like sanskhara... > It should be noted that although there is no self this does not mean that > terms such as I, mine and self are to be discarded. These are necessary > for communication even when discussing Dhamma. or when talking about a river. --- sorry, pay no attention --- merely deranged ramblings from a river side rambler ! Best wishes Lucy 11644 From: Victor Yu Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Jon, Yes. Nama is impermanent. Is what is impermanent easeful or stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha? Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities > Victor > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Jon, > > > > Is nama permanent or impermanent? > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > Hmm. You've got me worried here, Victor. I know you're not asking me > because you don't know the answer... It must be something to do with my > post, but I really can't see the connection. > > Anyway, since I have a 50% chance of getting this right, let me say > 'impermanent' ;-)). > > Jon > > > > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, > > because > > > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. Only the > > > mental factor of insight (panna) can see by direct knowledge this > > > characteristic, and even then it is only highly developed insight that > > > sees this. The beginning stage of insight is to see realities as > > either > > > nama or rupa, and even this cannot begin without a firm intellectual > > grasp > > > of what the teachings have to say on this. > > > > > > The world as we experience it is, in terms of rupas, merely 7 in > > number. > > > > > > Jon > 11645 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 8:59pm Subject: jhana Dear Kom, I appreciate very much your careful way of explaining the difficult subject of jhana and the obstacles people may find on their way. It is compassion to show the difficulties of the attainment of jhana, because it helps people not to take for jhana what is not jhana. Nina. 11646 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 0:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Dear Jon, Nice way of putting it Jon, I really appreciate it. Metta, Sukin. In any event, it is I think important to bear in mind that the 5 hindrances do not include the wrong view that is the 'sense of self' (your post above). The significance of this should be evident. It measn that the suppression of the hindrances (something that constitutes such a significant aspect of some people's idea of the development of the path) can have no impact as regards the defilement of wrong view -- yet wrong view is one of the defilements to be eradicated at the first level of enlightenment. I think I've said enough for one post! I'll get back to you one the rest later. Jon 11647 From: azita gill Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 10:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import --- Sarah wrote: , > > While it's true that we can never say that kamma is > the only cause, > whenever there is 'harm', kamma must have been a > major cause as I > understand. > Dear Sarah, I have only just learnt that not all we experience is the result of kamma. Reading questions and answers from King Milinda and Nagasena, King M. states: "---for there is no feeling without kamma. All feeling has its root in kamma and it is on account of kamma that feeling arises." Nagasena: "No, great king, not all feeling has its root in kamma. There are eight causes of the arising of feelings. Excess of wind, of bile and of phlegm, the mixture of the 3 bodily fluids, variations in temperature, stress of circumstances, external agency [???] and kamma. Whoever says it is only kamma that oppresses beings excludes the other 7 reasons and that statement of theirs is wrong. [here i'm leaving out Nagasena's elaboration on the above] The ignorant go too far when they say that everything that is experienced is produced as the fruit of kamma. Without a Buddha's insight no one can ascertain the extent of the action of kamma." > I'm amazed that this is so. For a long time I beleived as King M. Also, Sarah, in an earlier post, you requested a photo of Zoe and me. I'm not ignoring that request; I won't see Zoe til May and I'll organise fotos then. How do I get to view the other fotos???? haven't worked that one out yet. > > . may all beings be happy. a Azita. > 11648 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Dear Howard So marvellous! Thank you for telling us, it's wonderful to be able to share your joy and so kind of you to let us know anjali / \ Lucy 11649 From: Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/4/02 8:23:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > > > So to recap, whenever there is directed attention/observation it is > > mostly > > > with an idea of self or craving (and thanks for identifying this other > > > important ingredient in the mix, Howard). > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > What I said was the following, Jon: > > "I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there > > be a > > strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved." > > Now, Jon, saying that there *could* be a strong sense of self and > > > > there *could* also be strong craving involved, is a far cry from saying > > "whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly with an > > idea > > of self or craving." > > Firstly, my apologies if I misunderstood your position, Howard. (To be > honest, I'm not convinced I'm guilty as charged, but I'm not going to > pursue this -- let's move on!). > ------------------------------------------ Howard: As you wish. ;-) ----------------------------------------- > > > In fact, it is my understanding that when a backgound > > layer of calm and nonreactiveness is in place as the result of an > > ongoing > > concentration practice, directed attention/observation can be relatively > > free > > of a sense of self and almost completely free of craving. > > The concept of a 'background layer of calm and non-reactiveness' is a > novel one to me. I am doubtful that it finds support in the texts. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I can't give you specific references. I have heard, from many sources and repeatedly, that an ongoing practice of samatha bhavana leads to a general calming of the mind, not just during a jhana, by means of suppression as opposed to uprooting (which requires path consciousness). One *can* note that in DN 2, in the section immediately following the Jhanas, there is the following: *********************************************************** "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' Just as if there were a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water -- eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects, and going through the middle of it was a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread -- and a man with good eyesight, taking it in his hand, were to reflect on it thus: 'This is a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water, eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects. And this, going through the middle of it, is a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' "This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. **************************************************** There is also the following from Bodhi Leaves 15: **************************************************** Samatha Bhavana Samatha bhavana, the development of mental tranquillity with concentration, is accompanied by three benefits; it gives happiness in the present life, a favorable rebirth, and the freedom from mental defilements which is a prerequisite for attainment of insight. In samatha the mind becomes like a still, clear pool completely free from disturbance and agitation, and ready to mirror on its surface the nature of things as they really are, the aspect of them which is hidden from ordinary knowledge by the restlessness of craving. It is the peace and fulfillment which is depicted on the features of the Buddha, investing his images with a significance that impresses even those who have no knowledge of what it means. Such an image of the Buddha can itself be a very suitable object of meditation, and is, in fact, the one that most Buddhists instinctively use. The very sight of the tranquil image can calm and pacify a mind distraught with worldly hopes and fears. It is the certain and visible assurance of Nibbana. ******************************************************* I found the above two in one minute. I'd expect that a thorough search could do much better. -------------------------------------------------------- Also,> > I would be interested to know what you see as being the significance of > the 'non-reactiveness' (and what dhamma would this be, I wonder?). ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Non-reactiveness isn't a dhamma; it is an absence, the absence of the tendency to react with craving, aversion, and clinging. When we react with craving, aversion, clinging, and with an active sense of "I" and "mine", the meditative process is short-circuited. This is quite evident to those who meditate. ------------------------------------------------------- There> > seems to be an idea here that a concentration practice that leads to > normal reactions being replaced by non-reactiveness (presumably because of > suppression at some level or other) is or is likely to be a form of > kusala, but I doubt that this would be so, for much the same reasons as > mentioned in the context of directed attention (i.e., idea of self, > craving). > > By 'concentration practice' you refer to samatha bhavana, I think. > Samatha bhavana is the development of the tranquillity that is associated > with kusala (not concentration as such) and is developed when kusala citta > is accompanied by panna of the appropriate level. It's true that highly > developed samatha can lead to the temporary suppression of the 5 > hindrances. However, the idea that such suppression is a condition, > necessary or otherwise, for the development of satipatthana, is one of > those 'logical' deductions that in fact is not supported by the texts > themselves, to my knowledge (any references would be welcome) > > In any event, it is I think important to bear in mind that the 5 > hindrances do not include the wrong view that is the 'sense of self' (your > post above). The significance of this should be evident. It measn that > the suppression of the hindrances (something that constitutes such a > significant aspect of some people's idea of the development of the path) > can have no impact as regards the defilement of wrong view -- yet wrong > view is one of the defilements to be eradicated at the first level of > enlightenment. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, until stream-entry there is the view of "self", and until full enlightenment there is the sense of "self". If the absence of these were a requirement for progress on the path, then one would already have to be at stream-entry to even begin; that is, in order to get to S we'd already have to *be* at S - an impossibility. -------------------------------------------------- > > I think I've said enough for one post! I'll get back to you one the rest > later. > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 10:00am Subject: India Ch 6, no 2 India Ch 6, no 2 We had a Dhamma discussion sitting on the grass near the great Stupa in Sarnath, where the Buddha gave his first sermon to his five disciples. There were many people going around the Stupa and Burmese pilgrims were beating a drum and chanting to express their respect to the Buddha. After our discussion we were also going around the Stupa three times with lighted candles. Instead of thoughts of reverence I happened to have thoughts of dosa because of something that worried me. However, I remembered a conversation I had with a friend who had told me that we do not necessarily have wholesome thoughts at the holy sites. It is very natural that there are also akusala cittas. Then I considered that it did not matter to have dosa. Later on Acharn Sujin reminded me that even such thoughts can be motivated by lobha: someone may like it that he is unconcerned about his dosa. This shows again how easily we can be deceived with regard to ourselves. Attachment to sense objects can only be eradicated at the attainment of the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner, anågåmí. First wrong view of realities, diììhi, has to be eradicated before other defilements can be eradicated. We have the latent tendency of wrong view, diììhanussaya, and this can condition the arising of lobha-múla-citta (citta rooted in attachment) that is accompanied by wrong view. When we have studied the Dhamma we may have intellectual understanding of the Buddha¹s teaching on nåma and rúpa, but we may still follow the wrong practice instead of developing right understanding of what appears now. Wrong practice is a way of wrong view, diììhi. We may engage in wrong practice without noticing this. We may, for example, believe that we should visit the holy sites and pay respect to the Buddha¹s relics in order to have more sati of satipatthåna. Acharn Supee reminded us that we may try to induce sati by acting in a specific way. That is not the right Path. He explained that the ³teacher² lobha may tell us to follow special techniques in order to gain more understanding, but that this is not the development of right understanding of realities that are conditioned and appear now. Acharn Sujin always stresses that we cannot do anything to have sati, it arises because of its own conditions. When we listen to the Dhamma conditions for the arising of sati are accumulated. However, we may still unknowingly try to be aware. It is paññå that can detect such moments. Conceit, måna, is another akusala cetasika that can arise with lobha-múla-citta. When there is conceit we attach importance to ourselves. Because of conceit we compare ourselves with others: we think ourselves better, equal or less than someone else. However, also when we do not compare ourselves with others we may find ourselves important and then there is conceit. Acharn Sujin reminded us that even when we laugh, conceit may arise. When we laugh about the way someone else is dressed, there can be conceit: we may find that he is dressed in a funny way while we are well dressed. Also when we are with other people who tell us stories and we join in their laughter we may find ourselves important, we may attach importance to our way of laughing, our manners. Acharn Supee explained that when there is a sense of ³me² and ³he² there may already be conceit. Conceit may arise when we think of someone else who takes medicine while we do not have to take it; when we think of ourselves who perspire in the hot climate of India, while others do not; when we think of ourselves who have taken the food from the buffet table already while others have not yet; when we think of ourselves who visit the holy sites, while others do not. There are countless instances of thinking with conceit, but these are very intricate. When there is a thought of ³me and the others² and our objective is not dåna, síla or bhåvanå, conceit is bound to arise very often. Even when we think, ³He sits there and I am here², there can already be conceit, Acharn Supee said. When we have mettå, loving kindness, for someone else, we do not think with conceit, thus this is a way to have less akusala when we are with others. However, cittas arise and fall away very rapidly, and there may even be clinging to the idea of trying to have mettå instead of conceit. Mettå and conceit can arise very rapidly one after the other. Only paññå can know these different moments. Acharn Sujin said: ³If we try to analyse different moments it is not paññå, it is thinking. When there is more understanding there will be less thinking about Œme¹ all the time. We should think of other people rather than thinking of ourselves. Any time satipaììhåna arises, it is so useful. It is like a drop of water falling in a big jar, even if it is a tiny drop.² In other words, eventually the jar will be filled with water, even if there is a little drop at a time. Evenso, a short moment of sati is useful, because it is accumulated little by little, so that right understanding can grow. 11651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for realities op 02-03-2002 16:14 schreef Victor Yu op victoryu@s...: > > What are the accumulated conditions for the arising of mindfulness? > What are the right conditions for the realities to arise? Dear Victor, First of all I want to thank you for the sutta quotations you provide us with so often. They are very valuable and it is so kind of you to take the trouble pasting them. As always your questions are short and pertinent. The condiitons for mindfulness: listening to the right person who explains the Dhamma, deeply considering what we hear, again and again, investigating in our daily life the dhammas that appear. At first it is intellectual understanding, and when this is really firm, it is a foundation for the arising of samma-sati. The conditions for the realities to arise: this is a great question, Victor. There are 24 classes of conditions, this is most intricate. We were born in this human plane, result of kamma. We were born to receive objects through the senses: seeing, hearing, etc. Those are results of kamma. There is seeing whether you like it or not. There is hearing, whether you like it or not. After the sense impressions there are our reactions, kusala cittas or akusala cittas, and these raise conditioned by our accumulated inclinations. There are nama and rupa all the time, they are never lacking, they arise and fall away, no matter whether there is awareness of them or forgetfulness. It is all so extremely fast. There is no time to say: now I shall focus on rupa, now I shall focus on feeling or citta. Sarah reminded us of the ayatanas: ********** Life passes just in a flash. I quote from Visuddhimagga, XX, 72, which contains actually quotes from the Maha-Niddesa, Sutta on Old Age: Life, person, pleasure, pain-just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Gods, though they life for four-and eighty thousand Aeonas, are not the same for two such moments. Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return; And those that break up meanwhile, and in future, Have traits no different from those ceased before. No (world is) born if (consciousness) is not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow. No store of broken states, no future stock; Those born balance like seeds on needle points. Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; Those present decay, unmingled with those past. They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky. Considering the ayatanas helps me to understand the seed balancing on a needle point: the visible object impinges on the eyesense and then seeing-consciousness arises, and the meeting or association of them is unthinkably short. People ask sometimes, how can I be in time to be aware of realities? It is all too fast. It is not a question of being in time, it is pa~n~naa that can shoot from very far and very precisely. When there are conditions for pa~n~naa it arises and is accompanied by right thinking, which hits the object and right concentration which focusses on the object, and the other conascent cetasikas performing their functions. Sati cannot be aware of what has not arisen yet, it can be aware of what has arisen because of conditions and appear. Sati cannot be planned, nor can the objects of sati be planned. An example: a harsh sound is heard when someone slams the door, then aversion may arise immediately, or sati that is aware of sound. It is all so sudden, so rapid. Best wishes from Nina. ********** 11652 From: Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Personal Note of No Great Import Thanks, Christine. Lovely! With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/4/02 5:56:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Howard, thanks for sharing the Joy .... it brightened up my Monday... > One other unexpected pleasure came my way as well, so I'll share a > little excerpt in thanks for being uplifted by your news. > Just a part of a poem - found when looking for readings on Time and > The Present Moment - also, like your news, Dhamma related <-(that > bit's for the moderators :-)) > > Excerpts from "Now and Then" > > June 18, 1995 > > Each and every morning, > first this spring > and now this summer, > a house wren calls out. > > He calls out, "I am this house wren and this is my house. Stay away." > > His house is a hole in the wall of the house neighbouring this > building. > It is a brick wall that faces onto and adjoins the monastery garden. > > The house wren sits in this hole sometimes, and there he calls out > his message