14000 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Christine, Good questions. --- christine_forsyth Dear Sarah, Larry and All, > > If I read a post that causes dosa to arise, is the actual post, or > the 'seeing' of that post the result of kamma, of something I have > done in the past? ..... The ‘seeing’ of that post is vipaka, result of kamma. Remember it justs sees visible object and is either kusala (good) or akusala (bad) result, depending on the ‘something done’. ..... >Or is the 'feeling' I feel the result of kamma? ..... At the moment of seeing itself, the feeling accompanying it is neutral feeling. The feeling accompanying the citta (i.e. seeing in this case) is of the same jati (kind or nature), so in this case, the neutral feeling is also vipaka, result of kamma. ..... > Or is the type of personality I have that would tend to get upset at > seeing that type of post the result of kamma? ..... Now we move on to accumulations, tendencies or type of personality (remembering there isn’t a person, of course). After the seeing has fallen away -- it’s so very brief--, there may be lobha (attachment) or dosa(aversion) or any other ‘reaction’ to what was seen in the same eye door process or subsequent mind door process. At this stage, the lobha or dosa is not the result of kamma and not inevitable in the way the seeing experience is. Indeed the lobha or dosa rooted cittas at this stage may prompt new kamma to be performed. ..... >If the feeling I feel, > or the personality I have, is the result of kamma - isn't the deck > rather stacked against us, a sort of kammic vicious circle, causing > us to experience more and more dosa? ..... Also, I should add, the feeling which accompanies the dosa is unpleasant feeling as we all know. As I mentioned, the feeling --and indeed all cetasikas (mental factors)-- are of the same jati as the citta. So in this case, the feeling is also not the result of kamma, but akusala (unwholesome) and likely to role with the citta ‘causing’ rather than ‘resulting from’ akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action). I believe it’s very important in our study of dhamma to understand the difference between the diffrent jatis (kinds) of cittas and cetasikas and to know what is cause and what is result. I hope this helps a little. Please let me know if I’ve confused you further. (Kom, I’ll rely on you to let us know if I make any misakes in any details. Sometimes, like now, I write in a bit of a rush). Sarah p.s. Chris, I was tempted to say “I hope it wasn’t one of my silly posts that caused the dosa”. We all understand what this means conventionally. In reality, however, a post never causes dosa. Only the accumulation of kilesa (defilements) which arise on account of what is seen, heard and so on, can prompt dosa. Nonetheless........wishing you panna (wisdom) rather than dosa on account of what is seen when you read DSG messages;-) ====================================================== 14001 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply, I think you have sorted it out for me. :) No, your posts never 'cause' dosa only panna. Dsg posts on Dhamma may be tough to digest sometimes, but Truth is like that. metta, Christine --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Good questions. > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, Larry > and All, > > > > If I read a post that causes dosa to arise, is the actual post, or > > the 'seeing' of that post the result of kamma, of something I have > > done in the past? > ..... > The `seeing' of that post is vipaka, result of kamma. Remember it justs > sees visible object and is either kusala (good) or akusala (bad) result, > depending on the `something done'. > ..... > >Or is the 'feeling' I feel the result of kamma? > ..... > At the moment of seeing itself, the feeling accompanying it is neutral > feeling. The feeling accompanying the citta (i.e. seeing in this case) is > of the same jati (kind or nature), so in this case, the neutral feeling is > also vipaka, result of kamma. > ..... > > Or is the type of personality I have that would tend to get upset at > > seeing that type of post the result of kamma? > ..... > Now we move on to accumulations, tendencies or type of personality > (remembering there isn't a person, of course). > > After the seeing has fallen away -- it's so very brief--, there may be > lobha (attachment) or dosa(aversion) or any other `reaction' to what was > seen in the same eye door process or subsequent mind door process. At this > stage, the lobha or dosa is not the result of kamma and not inevitable in > the way the seeing experience is. Indeed the lobha or dosa rooted cittas > at this stage may prompt new kamma to be performed. > ..... > >If the feeling I feel, > > or the personality I have, is the result of kamma - isn't the deck > > rather stacked against us, a sort of kammic vicious circle, causing > > us to experience more and more dosa? > ..... > Also, I should add, the feeling which accompanies the dosa is unpleasant > feeling as we all know. As I mentioned, the feeling --and indeed all > cetasikas (mental factors)-- are of the same jati as the citta. So in this > case, the feeling is also not the result of kamma, but akusala > (unwholesome) and likely to role with the citta `causing' rather than > `resulting from' akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action). > > I believe it's very important in our study of dhamma to understand the > difference between the diffrent jatis (kinds) of cittas and cetasikas and > to know what is cause and what is result. I hope this helps a little. > Please let me know if I've confused you further. > > (Kom, I'll rely on you to let us know if I make any misakes in any > details. Sometimes, like now, I write in a bit of a rush). > > Sarah > > p.s. Chris, I was tempted to say "I hope it wasn't one of my silly posts > that caused the dosa". We all understand what this means conventionally. > In reality, however, a post never causes dosa. Only the accumulation of > kilesa (defilements) which arise on account of what is seen, heard and so > on, can prompt dosa. Nonetheless........wishing you panna (wisdom) rather > than dosa on account of what is seen when you read DSG messages;-) > ====================================================== > > 14002 From: onco111 Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah (and Jon), Christine's comments may be referring to what's been going on at d- l... I really appreciate the way you moderate the list, so that the discussion stays focussed on Dhamma. With much appreciation, Dan > p.s. Chris, I was tempted to say "I hope it wasn't one of my silly posts > that caused the dosa". We all understand what this means conventionally. > In reality, however, a post never causes dosa. Only the accumulation of > kilesa (defilements) which arise on account of what is seen, heard and so > on, can prompt dosa. Nonetheless........wishing you panna (wisdom) rather > than dosa on account of what is seen when you read DSG messages;-) > ====================================================== 14003 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Goofy Glorious --- onco111 wrote: > People are much more perceptive than horses, That's a pretty speciest thing to say isn't it? Not only that, but difficult to prove. The more people I get to know, the more I doubt their presumed intellectual superiority over other species. My cat for example is much more perceptive than most people. Without any explicit training, he has a fairly sophisticated ethical system and ability to learn rules of the house without being told more than once. Some examples: 1) he quickly learned not to go on the bed, or other types of behavior that is unwelcome. 2) when he is treated in a way he doesn't like, instead of complaining or fighting back, most of the time he just calmly walks out of the room 3) With little children, he tolerates some obnoxious behavior like pulling his tail that he absolutely would not put up with from adults. 4) when play fighting with me, he never scratches, bites, unless I exceed a certain threshold of roughness. I've observed him many times when we're play fighting and I can see the physical cues of his temper rising, but he always observes his honor system of not retaliating with something more severe than he receives. 5) my cat remembers. when he sees my friend, who did an injustice to him a few years ago, he will noticably avoid eye contact with my friend when they greet. He also does that eye contact avoidance thing after he's been punished (unjustly, or at least perceived by him as unjust). -fk 14004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections I, no 3 Perfections Ch I, no 3. Before one listened to the Dhamma, akusala citta was likely to arise often, and one did not understand at all how to develop the eightfold Path. When someone has listened to the Dhamma, he acquires understanding of the development of paññå and of the eightfold Path. However, when people have gained already some degree of understanding, they can notice that very seldom in a day sammå-sati, right awareness, arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities. Therefore, it is necessary to truly know oneself and to find out the reason why right awareness arises very seldom. It may be that someone has understood the right way of the development of paññå that can eradicate the wrong view of self and realize the four noble Truths. However, what is the reason that right awareness does not develop in accordance with one¹s understanding of the Path? The reason is that everybody has defilements, and this can be compared to suffering from illness. We are like a sick person who does not know how to recover and gain strength. We see that the way we have to travel is extremely far, but when our body is not healthy and strong we cannot travel all the way through and reach our destination. The eightfold Path is the long way we have to travel in order to reach our destination, that is, the realization of the four noble Truths. If we do not examine and know ourselves, we are likely to be a person who knows the right Path but who cannot go along it. We are like someone who does not know the way to gain strength and recover from his ailments. Therefore, listening to the Dhamma and considering it so that we gain understanding, can be compared to the situation of a person who looks for the right medicine to cure his illness. Someone who does not listen to the Dhamma and does not even know that he is sick, will not look for medicine to cure his illness. As soon as he finds the Dhamma and has right understanding of it, he is like a person who has found the right medicine that cures his illness so that he has sufficient strength to travel a long way. The dhammas that make the citta healthy and strong so that one can walk the eightfold Path all the way through are the ten perfections. We should carefully consider the perfections so that we have correct understanding of them. If we do not consider them we may listen to the Dhamma but we may not develop the perfections. We may listen to the Dhamma every day, but we should know and consider why we listen: we should listen with the firm determination and intention to have right understanding of the Dhamma so that we can apply it, and evenso apply it during each life to come. We should know the right purpose of listening: the development of paññå that can eradicate defilements. In this way the perfections can begin to develop while we listen. When we listen, the perfection of determination can develop. We should know the meaning of the perfection of determination; without mental strength one cannot fulfill this perfection. Some people who perform kusala, such as generosity, express their determination by prayer, but they do not know the meaning of determination. When one has the firm, unshakeable determination to reach the goal, the eradication of akusala, determination is a perfection, and this is an essential condition for the development of paññå. If we do not study the perfections, we may continue to just listen without knowing the right purpose of it, and because of this we surely shall not realize the four noble Truths. We should consider whether the perfections begin to develop while we listen to the Dhamma. Whenever we have the firm determination to listen with the right purpose, the development of paññå, we develop and accumulate all ten perfections so that they can reach accomplishment. ***** 14005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Dear Deanna, I am really glad you are so interested in the perfections. Finally when it is completed, it will be on different websites. With appreciation, Nina. op 25-06-2002 17:58 schreef Deanna Shakti Johnson op <>: > > Dearest Nina, > Thank you so much for posting from Ms. Sujin's book on the paramis. > Eventually will the whole book be available in English? > I have been very interested in the perfections for sometime but have not had > much access to them. Thank you for sharing this valuable information. I 14006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Rob Ep, do not leave. Dear Rob Ep, Lodewijk told me to plead with you not to leave. You with all your interest, also in Pali, should not leave. We shall miss you. As Sarah explained before, sometimes things happen, people creep in to advertise. It cannot be helped. But you could do as Howard says, change your status. Web only. Best wishes, Nina. op 25-06-2002 18:12 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: > Dear Friends, > I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing list. > 14007 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Larry Dear Larry, there are different methods of teaching by which different aspects are shown. The study of the sequence of cittas in processes helps you to see, at least in theory, that there is not one lasting moment of seeing but in fact many different cittas performing their functions within the eye-door process. We cannot count cittas nor know them all. A. Sujin said that panna can shoot from far and very fast. Only panna can know more, but our panna is not the Buddha's panna. Gogler explained very clearly the rapidity of cittas succeeding one another by way of the fast turning fan. The Dependent Origination shows causes and effects in life. When we study the processes it may be confusing to try to combine this with P.S., because the latter is so complex, and it has many aspects. It would be better to separate different subjects of study. The study should not be tiring, like a burden. Gradually it all will become clearer. Best wishes, Nina. op 25-06-2002 02:48 schreef <> op <>: > Also, it seems that citta process scrambles the order of > paticcasamupadda. I'm wondering at what point there is contact. If it is > adverting consciousness, why does kamma vipaka come after that instead > of before? I think I'm getting these terms mixed up, but my brains are > spaghetti and I can't get it straightened out. 14008 From: goglerr Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Hi! Larry, wishing u well and fine. >L. From the objective point of view (citta as object) if one reason we don't cognize every citta is because of compaction, is there any way we can slow down the speed? If not, how did the Buddha discover these things? >L. From the subjective point of view (citta as subject) what is the "knowing mind"? Can we expand its knowing capabilities? What is it that we are experiencing if not cittas? I can see a little how slow the mind is. It's like living in the past, literally. G: First, let's look from the subjective point of view. The `knowing mind' is also cittas, is also a cognitive process. Other words the citta (subject) is detecting the citta (object), or detecting itself. For e.g in the cittanupassana satipatthana, the knowing mind which `observe' the arising and passing away of the consciousness of associated with greed, hatred, delusion, thoughts, etc. To expand its knowing capabilities of the `knowing mind', in other words is to experience realities as they really are, is what the Buddha taught. The more we expand these capabilities, the less the defilements we will have, until finally the uprootment of all mental defilement. The way to expand it, then we come back to the core teachings, the Noble 8 Fold Path (sila ,samadhi panna) and the 4 Noble Truths through listening/reading, reflecting and most importantly `bhavana', repeatedly. The deeper the penetration of N8P and 4NT, the expansion of the knowing capabilities will be greater. You asked `What is it that we are experiencing if not cittas?'. What we are experiencing (daily, like now) is actually citta in one continous manner but we are not experiencing them as fleeting cittas where they change very fast in their most minutest form. But it does not mean we have to see them all the time. If we are able to experience them, in their minutest form, again and again, for a period of time, we began break away from from the grasping on the inherent notion of permanency, satisfaction and self/control where we unknowingly accumulated them since beginningless past. This is where bhavana comes in, expanding and exploring the `knowing mind' on the ocean of realities. Back to the objective view point. We can't slow down the speed of the cognitive process, it is beyond our `control', it takes its own course as in line with the nature of anatta. The `knowing' of each and different kinds of consciousnesses, the cognitive processes, the interelation between citta, cetasika and rupa, the conditions that are associated with them etc. comes from highly develop sort of viriya, sati and samadhi. Of course other noble factors are there too. Definitely this are not for beginners in the bhavana. A brief methodology on how one can detect a single kind of citta (or even cetasika); e.g. adverting, sense conciousness, bhavanga etc. As you know the cognitive process is flowing rapidly – different consciousnesses are arising and passing away. The meditator (conventionally used) focus his attention on the mind. He makes an intention only to see, let say, the adverting consciousness. If he is skilled in his concentration power and also having deep and dicriminative wisdom, this particular consciousness will keep arising and passing away in his mental `window' or in his `knowing' and others cosciousnesses will not be observable. He need to have dicriminative wisdom, if he doesn't, he can't differentiate one type of consciousness with another type of consciousness even he make that intention. Also the highly balanced concentrated power, is to able to hold the object (citta) strongly so that other distractions will not come in, and long enough for the panna to observe and scrutinize it. Then we can know the characteristics, functions and manifestations of that particular citta, a directly experince knowledge. Other words, since there are many objects, we are only looking at one object at one time. We use this method to `analyse' all kinds of cittas (and it's proceeses), all cetasikas, all rupas, their interconnections with one another, the interplay of conditions and nibbana too. The mind and body/Abhidhamma can be `studied' in this way. More can be spoken about it but `don't try these at home'! But Larry, the above methodology is only a `bonus' in bhavana, not the actual purpose of developing bhavana. I think I mention it in earlier post. The whole purpose of mental cultivation is to develop insight and wisdom, finally to eradicate greed, hatred and delusion. >L: I forgot that contact is a cetasika. It is also a link (nidana) in paticcasamuppada. If we say that patisandhi citta (rebirth) is vinnana and bhava nidanas, then would sense consciousness (vipaka) come before or after contact (phassa nidana)? Or is sense consciousness phassa nidana itself? G: I look at paticcasamupada on the big picture i.e. past lives, present life and future lives (as according to the nidana samyutta). I notice that the above question is not properly place. Patisandhi citta is patisandhi vinnana (rebirth consciousness), but is patisandhi citta, bhava (becoming) nidana ? I doubt so. I stand to be corrected from anyone out there. >L: Isn't this sense consciousness a result (vipaka) of sankhara nidana? If so it doesn't seem to arise according to the dependent arising sequence. If anything it seems to arise dependent on adverting consciousness. There's some confusion here between proximate cause and whatever the kamma cause is and how that fits into dependent arising. Put another way, how does citta process fit into the paticcasamuppada formula? G: Sense consciousness as one of the 3 factors of phassa, is in connection with present life. On the other hand, sankhara (kammic formations) has occurred in the past lives. Due to the kammic formations (from body, speech and mind), rebirth takes place in the present life. When we look at sankhara, we take the processes of cittas as a whole, (inclusive of adverting, sense cons., investigating, determining, javana, bhavanga etc.) where kamma were produce. As in abhidhamma, after adverting citta, will arise sense citta, true! Look from another angle. Because we were ignorant and created all forms of kamma in the past, therefore in this life, the cittas proliferates to give rise to this and that. The proliferation of cittas too (which are based upon ignorance), also creating kamma for the future, therefore future birth takes places. And the cycle repeats itself, until we uproot greed, hatred and delusion. Can I say cittas fit into every piece of puzzle in paticcasamupada? Hmmm…… let's see what the crowd say! >L: If this sense consciousness is the result of kamma, is the object of the consciousness (the rupa) also a result of kamma? G: It may or may not be so, but I'm not sure because I don't really know the actual function of kamma. What I know, not everything is conditioned by kamma. >L: If so, doesn't that make the whole citta process a result (vipaka) because every citta function in the process has the same object? If the rupa is not a result, then what is it about the sense consciousness that is resultant? G: If you are talking on conventional term `the same object' it is ok, pass! But if we are looking from the perpective of a citta process, it is not the same object but different objects. Objects and cittas are actually conditioning each other. Briefly, 1) the cittas that cause rupas to arise 2) cittas that cause other cittas to arise 3) rupas that causes cittas to arise and 4) rupas that cause other rupas to arise. >L: Thanks for all your help, G: Perhaps not helping u that much, more like muddling everything up! He! He! goglerr 14009 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Rob Ep, do not leave. Dear Nina & Lodewijk, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > Lodewijk told me to plead with you not to leave. You might not have read the end of my message to Rob Ep. It turns out (see message below) it was just a misunderstanding and he never intended to leave. He thought he was replying to Ken and Visakkha asking to be taken of their mailing list only, not realizing the circulars were coming from DSG. Sarah ====== --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Ha ha, Sarah, > this is a funny misunderstanding. > > I believe I received those emails in my 'in-box' and was asking to be > removed from > > *their* list, not dsg. I was not aware that these emails were > originating from > dsg and had infiltrated the list. > > I have no desire to be removed from dsg, nor do I want to be on 'no > emails!' > Isn't this silly? If you can put me back onto 'emails' I am happy to > receive them > in my email box. I have a special file for dsg posts that takes them > directly > into the folder, and I can then worry about which ones to read!!!! > > well, this has been quite a silly thing. ........... And please put me back on 'emails' setting, so I can get > the full > overwhelming volume of dsg messages! 14010 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:22am Subject: ADL ch. 13 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 13 (3) In the process of citta, the panca-vinnana is succeeded by sampaticchana-citta. This citta, which performs the function of sampaticchana (receiving the object), receives the object after the panca-vinnana has fallen away. Sampaticchana-citta is ahetuka vipaka. Two kinds of citta can perform this function: one is akusala vipaka and one is kusala vipaka. Kamma does not only produce the dvi-panca-vinnanas (the five pairs) and sampaticchana-citta, it also produces santirana-citta (investigating-consciousness) which succeeds sampaticchana-citta. Santirana-citta performs in the sense-door process the function of santirana (investigating the object); it is ahetuka vipakacitta. . As we have seen (Ch. 9), there are three kinds of santirana-citta which can perform the function of investigating: 1. Santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha. 2. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha. 3. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by somanassa (in case the object is extraordinarily pleasant). Santirana-citta is succeeded by votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness). Votthapana is another function of citta; the votthapana-citta determines the object in the sense-door process. After it has determined the object it is succeeded by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. The conditions through which it arises are different from the conditions for santirana-citta which is produced by kamma. Votthapana-citta is not vipaka and it is not kusala or akusala but it is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. As we have seen, the votthapana-citta is actually the mano-dvaravajjana-citta which performs the function of votthapana in the sense-door process and is then called votthapana-citta. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta performs two function in the mind-door process it performs the function of adverting to an object through the mind-door, and in the sense-door process it performs the function of votthapana. If we do not know about the cittas arising in processes and their different conditions we may think that there is a 'self' who decides at certain moments to do good deeds or bad deeds. In reality there is no person, no 'self' who decides, but there are cittas which are conditioned by accumulations of kusala and akusala. Cittas experience pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses and through the mind-door. If someone has accumulated a great deal of lobha and dosa, lobha-mula-cittas are likely to arise when the object is pleasant and dosa-mula-cittas are likely to arise when the object is unpleasant. These cittas arise because of conditions, they are not self, they are beyond control. However, through the study of Dhamma and above all through the development of 'insight' there can be conditions for kusala cittas and then there is 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) to the object. No matter whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant, in the sense-door process the votthapana-citta can be succeeded by kusala cittas and in the mind-door, process the mano-dvaravajjana-citta can, after it has adverted to the object, be succeeded by kusala cittas. We are inclined to think that in the process of cittas, akusala vipakacittas which experience an unpleasant object should necessarily be followed by akusala cittas, since we let ourselves be ruled by the objects we experience. However, if there is 'wise attention' there is no aversion towards unpleasant objects. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise because of conditions which are entirely different from the conditions for vipakacittas. Akusala vipaka and kusala vipaka are the result of kamma. We wish to control our vipaka, but this is impossible. When it is time for akusala vipaka, we cannot prevent it from arising. We should realize that our life is nama and rupa, which arise because of condition and fall away immediately. If we would only realize that vipaka is but a moment of citta which falls away as soon as it has arisen, we would be less likely to have aversion towards unpleasant objects we experience. One may wonder whether it is necessary to know in detail about cittas and their functions. Is it not enough to know only about kusala cittas and akusala cittas? Apart from kusala cittas and akusala cittas we should know also about other kinds of cittas which perform different functions in the processes of cittas and which arise because of different conditions. Then there will be more understanding of the fact that there is no self which can direct the arising of particular cittas at particular moments. There is no self which can decide for kusala cittas. People have different accumulation and thus, when an object presents itselt, there will, in the process of cittas which experience it, be the arising of kusala cittas or akusala cittas, according to one's accumulations. When, for example, different people smell delicious food, some people may have akusala cittas while others may have kusala cittas. Those who are attached to food are bound to have lobha-mula-cittas. In the case of someone who has accumulations for dana (generosity), kusala citta may arise when he has smelled the food ; he may wish to offer food to the monks. In the case of others again there may be kusala cittas with panna which realizes smell, for example, as only smell, a rupa which is not some 'thing', which is devoid of 'self'. If there can be 'wise attention' to the object at this moment, there will be more conditions for 'wise attention' in the future. 14011 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Congee and enlightenment Dear Sarah, this info on congee is great! A friend of mine has a sick squirrel with what looks like a tumor on its neck. I'm going to tell her to feed it congee. If it's good for chickens and attorneys, it's probably good for squirrels. thanks a lot, Larry 14012 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah, Christine, Nina, & Gogler, Thanks for your thought provoking answers, but I'm still a little doubtful and confused. Concerning the nature of vipaka cittas, I'm too bewildered to even formulate a coherent question. So let's leave it for now. Maybe further study of kamma will help. The ideas concerning the 'potential' relationship between citta process and paticcasamuppada arose from several passages in Visuddhimagga that discussed the details of birth. There patisandhi was definitely given as the vinnana nidana and in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary there was also a reference to a correspondence between patisandhi and bhava nidana, but no explanation or discussion. I was just guessng that citta process would fit into, or follow the logic of, paticcasamuppada. Maybe someone could look in Patisambhidamagga or some of the commentaries. There might be more info there. Beyond that, any info on how different kinds of conditional relations fit together would be helpful. Lastly, concerning why all consciousnesses are not conscious, this question has to do with the nature of experience and what a citta actually does, or is. Perhaps, as Goglerr suggested, the best way to proceed here is with tranquility and insight. I guess that is enough projects for this weekend. Best wishes to all, Larry 14013 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections by A. Sujin, Ch 1, no. 1 Dear Shakti, --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > Dearest Nina, > Thank you so much for posting from Ms. Sujin's book on the paramis. > Eventually will the whole book be available in English? > I have been very interested in the perfections for sometime but have not > had much access to them. ..... You may also like to read Nina's own "Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" which can be found at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm I think you'll find they are complimentary and Nina's own writing will assist the reading of the translation of K.Sujin's. (This is the copy of Perfections Christine was referring to reading on her flights, I think). If this is too much on Perfections, leave Nina's til later. Perhaps we'll also have a chance to meet you in Bkk in September with Rob.... we'll see. I know there is one long weekend. Glad to see your interest, Sarah ====== 14014 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Congee and enlightenment Hi Larry, --- <> wrote: > Dear Sarah, this info on congee is great! A friend of mine has a sick > squirrel with what looks like a tumor on its neck. I'm going to tell her > to feed it congee. If it's good for chickens and attorneys, it's > probably good for squirrels. ..... ....and let's hope it's a condition for the squirrel to become enlightened somewhere down the line too........(maybe Frank's smart cat might like it as well;-)) Sarah ===== 14015 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over/Victor Dear Christine (& Victor), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > But, what a list of things to understand and develop .... > The Four Frames of Reference > The four right exertions > the four bases of power > the five faculties > the five strengths > the seven factors of awakening > the Noble Eightfold Path > > :):) I'm disappointed Victor - no sutta references? I do hope > they're all in one or two suttas or I'll be up all night trying to > find, read and understand......:) ..... I don't know if you stayed up all night and found some helpful references or not. If not, you may find it useful to read a summary of all of these in the same order in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para12.htm It starts on the third page with th 4 Foundations of Mindfulness. I also found the 3 meanings of satipatthana I referred to the other day from our discussions: ***** The word satipaììhåna has three meanings: 1. The objects sati is aware of, thus, a paramattha dhamma, a nåma dhamma or a rúpa dhamma. These are classified as the four satipaììhånas. 2. Sati cetasika which arises together with kåmåvacara citta accompanied by paññå (ñåùa-sampayutta), and which is aware of the objects of mindfulness, the four satipaììhånas. 3. The Path the Sammå-sambuddha and the ariyan disciples have developed. The development of the ariyan eightfold Path is actually the development of the four satipaììhånas. ***** I think you'll find that the list of 'things' above to 'understand and develop' boil down to a number of sobhana cetasikas ('beautiful' mental factors, with many overlapping in the different categories. I like the chicken story too with its emphasis on conditions rather than wishing as bringing the right results. Sarah ===== 14016 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:14pm Subject: Thoughts triggered by Squirrels This ramble isn't Larry's fault ....... let's blame it on the Squirrel! Dear Jon, Sarah, Sukin, (not sure if you were all there, but you are the Usual Suspects) I wonder if any or you will remember the incident I am thinking of ..... It was at breakfast time, in Sri Lanka, at the Hotel where we had to walk a long way through the gardens to our rooms, past the restaurant with a roof and no walls, past the swimming pool and the lagoon with the night frogs, and I was upstairs from S & J ....... well, while we were having breakfast a squirrel ran across the rafters of the open air restaurant (I never knew squirrels lived anywhere else but North America and Walt Disney movies until I saw one in Bangkok with Mike and Amara - and this one in Sri Lanka....). I think some in the larger group had gone to feed fish, and between talking of about people feeding the squirrel and the fish (and monkeys and kangaroos) I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? Or was I just thinking all of that, and now I can't tell real memories from actual memories :):) ? Ive read this through and it doesn't seem very coherent, but I've had a long day and don't think my editing will help it any...... metta, Chris 14017 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:36pm Subject: Re: Thoughts triggered by Squirrels Dear group, Sorry....slight error: I think I meant "can't tell real memories from imaginary/false memories"... Chris --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: <<>>> > I think some in the larger group had gone to feed fish, and between > talking of about people feeding the squirrel and the fish (and > monkeys and kangaroos) I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that > concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was > kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of > feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the > correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then > akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the > sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? Or was I > just thinking all of that, and now I can't tell real memories from > actual memories :):) ? <<<<>>> > > metta, > Chris 14018 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:08pm Subject: shinto Dear Group, Today I went with some of my students to a Shinto temple and we talked to one of the priests. The temple is rather serene and you feel quite peaceful in the grounds. The priest was humble and calm and told us about the age (circa 500A.D), and some of the rituals. What was interesting was that the people who go to the shrine, when they die, the funeral will be conducted by a Buddhist priest. He explained that Buddhism and Shinto have different philosophies and practices but that they are very friendly. It's one of the things I like about living in Japan, 127 million people on a relatively small piece of land but they try to harmonize and humility is seen as a high virtue. I learn a lot living here. robert 14019 From: Howard Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shinto Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/27/02 8:08:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robertk writes: > Dear Group, > Today I went with some of my students to a Shinto temple and we > talked to one of the priests. The temple is rather serene and you > feel quite peaceful in the grounds. The priest was humble and calm > and told us about the age (circa 500A.D), and some of the rituals. > What was interesting was that the people who go to the shrine, when > they die, the funeral will be conducted by a Buddhist priest. He > explained that Buddhism and Shinto have different philosophies and > practices but that they are very friendly. > It's one of the things I like about living in Japan, 127 million > people on a relatively small piece of land but they try to harmonize > and humility is seen as a high virtue. I learn a lot living here. > robert > =========================== This is lovely. Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying stripes, even different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in views and practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family fights".) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14020 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Goglerr Nice to have you back, Gog, and thanks for the careful and detailed responses to Larry's questions here (and later). I admire your fine knowledge of the texts. --- goglerr wrote: > ADL: "The panca-dvaravajjana-citta arises countless times a day, but > we do not notice it." > > L: Hi all, I was wondering what is the technical reason for this? Do > we ever notice it? Since it is a consciousness, shouldn't it consious? > > G: Hi Larry, it's me again. I would like to try share my thoghts with > you. Let me explain in two aspects, the objective and the subjective > aspect. Firstly, the objective aspect. Those sense door (and mind > door) adverting consciousness are one of the consciousnesses in the > cognitive process. It is a super dynamic process. These > consciousnesses arise and pass away very very fast as if they are one > continous unchanging occurence. In a split second, perhaps hundred or > thousands of consciousnesses have already arise and pass away, and > because of these, we take it as a continuity or as a whole. This is > what we called the compaction of continuity (santati ghana). Try to > imagine a ceiling fan or a standing fan. Turn it on until the speed > is so fast that we can't see those blades anymore. Now, we only can > see a continuity rather than those individual blades, right? In the > same manner, due the dynamic cognitive process, we can't really > notice those individual consciousness instead appering as a one whole > entity. Your point about santati ghana is a good one (I believe this aspect is discussed in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, too). It's always good to have the reminder. However, I have a small query about the passage that follows. You say: > Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because the > mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the > consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The > knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't > `see' > the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of > consciousnesses. As far as I know, although the texts speak often of the speed of citta, nowhere do they suggest that the reason this is not apparent is because 'the mind is not fast enough to detect itself'. To my knowledge, the reason given is invariably ignorance, lack of developed understanding of realities. I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by the texts. Keep up the good work! Jon > L: If it is a matter of weak (subtle) or strong, what determines > that, many repititions or some kind of energy thing? > G: Not sure what do u mean by this. Anyone knows? > > L: Also, it seems that citta process scrambles the order of > paticcasamupadda. I'm wondering at what point there is contact. > G: As I know, every citta that arises will also be accompanied by > contact (one of the seven universal cetasika) but I don't think > it > scrambles the order of d/o, but honestly I don't have the answer. > > L: If it is adverting consciousness, why does kamma vipaka come after > that instead of before? > G: Not sure too. Would u like to eleborate more? Thanks. > > Goglerr 14021 From: goglerr Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Hi Jon, it's been a while since we communicate 'face-to-face'. I glad to her from u. Hope that everything is fine over there. Jon: However, I have a small query about the passage that follows. You say: > > Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because the mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't `see' the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of consciousnesses. Jon: As far as I know, although the texts speak often of the speed of citta, nowhere do they suggest that the reason this is not apparent is because 'the mind is not fast enough to detect itself'. To my knowledge, the reason given is invariably ignorance, lack of developed understanding of realities. G: I really appreaciate that point. You're right, i can't deny that - the ignorance - the one that blinded us from what is real and unreal. Jon: I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by the texts. G: Not only the awareness has to be penetrative and sharp on the fast changing realities, but also has to be light (kayalahuta/cittalahuta), malleable (kayamuduta/cittamuduta), wieldy (kaya/cittakammannata) and proficient (kaya/cittapagunnata). Other words, the awareness has to be swift to be concurrent the fast arising objects of nama and rupa. The object of nama or rupa are very momenterial. They change very fast and rapid. Their promeniency are changing too. Let say, an oject from the touch door. If we are mindful of it, we can observe that they are changing. But not all the time the touch point is prominent , it changes too, then the awereness has to go to another nama rupa object with has become more prominent, so that the awareness has to be continuous and concurrent with an object of nama or rupa. Within the mind too, the awareness has to be sharp, penetrative and agile, so that it can be concurrent with different cittas that are arising and passing away. Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. Goglerr p.s: I have faith in 'slowing down'! 14022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:00am Subject: to Rob Ep Dear Rob Ep, :-) :-) Nina. 14023 From: manji Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) What if the speed, just as lightening, does not refer to the speed at which it goes from one citta to the next to the next. Instead, what if it refers to the speed at which dhamma falls away, what if it refers to the speed at which dhamma arises? A lightening bolt arises and is manifested so fast that it creates a shock wave and a brilliant flash of light. A lightening bolt can be sustained, and then pass away suddenly just as fast as it appeared. So I do believe that this "speed" refers only to the speed of cessation and arising (death/birth). It does not refer to any measure of Citta/Cetasika per second or such. The reason this is recollected is because there is sudden noting of certain cetasika arisen and it seems to have been like lightening. Therefore the mind may be aware of these moments; the mere fact that these are listed as paramattha dhamma serves as a testimony to their tangibility. If there was no possibility for experience of these dhamma, wouldn't these be mere trivial conceptual rupa and have no merit in being labeled paramattha dhamma? So it is not a question of keeping up or being more aware; what is the question is how sensitive the mind already is: Sati. As this sensitivity requires stillness as a contrast (the leaf falling on still water generates most conspicuous waves; the leaf falling on agitated water, while generating its waves, is interfered with by the agitation, and such an obvious contrast is lost among the interference) ekagatta is also a factor. And so on to the five jhana factors, eightfold path etc. Back to the leaf anology, suppose one were to place a leaf onto still water, how fast would it take for waves to appear upon this water? Sometimes when sati rises, there is a mental fermentation, a recollection f "so fast this dhamma had arisen." Just a moment later, "so fast this dhamma has fallen away". The latest understanding of this, which is interesting, is the fact that the mental fermentations (recollections) are what obstruct reality as it is, and in effect this "speed" is only perceived because the mind is so busy with its recollection as object that it does not see the rise and fall of paramattha dhamma. So immediately there is a recollection taken as an object in the mind door (mental fermentations), this process obstructs the rise and fall being known; concepts arising from recollections are incomplete experiences of an object and as such obstruct the complete experience of the rise and fall of dhamma. This last paragraph may not make much sense, it is a quite new interpretation of experiences arising from meditation and daily life. Appreciate any sharing of experience with regard to the arising and falling away of mental fermentation, concepts, and such. -Manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: goglerr > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 12:10 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) > > Hi Jon, it's been a while since we communicate 'face-to-face'. I glad > to her from u. Hope that everything is fine over there. > > Jon: However, I have a small query about the passage that follows. > You say: > > > Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because > the mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the > consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The > knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't > `see' the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of > consciousnesses. > > Jon: As far as I know, although the texts speak often of the speed of > citta, nowhere do they suggest that the reason this is not apparent > is because 'the mind is not fast enough to detect itself'. To my > knowledge, the reason given is invariably ignorance, lack of > developed understanding of realities. > > G: I really appreaciate that point. You're right, i can't deny that - > the ignorance - the one that blinded us from what is real and unreal. > > Jon: I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of > thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance > of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need > to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of > understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by > the texts. > > G: Not only the awareness has to be penetrative and sharp on the fast > changing realities, but also has to be light > (kayalahuta/cittalahuta), malleable (kayamuduta/cittamuduta), wieldy > (kaya/cittakammannata) and proficient (kaya/cittapagunnata). Other > words, the awareness has to be swift to be concurrent the fast > arising objects of nama and rupa. The object of nama or rupa are very > momenterial. They change very fast and rapid. Their promeniency are > changing too. Let say, an oject from the touch door. If we are > mindful of it, we can observe that they are changing. But not all the > time the touch point is prominent , it changes too, then the > awereness has to go to another nama rupa object with has become more > prominent, so that the awareness has to be continuous and concurrent > with an object of nama or rupa. Within the mind too, the awareness > has to be sharp, penetrative and agile, so that it can be concurrent > with different cittas that are arising and passing away. > > Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. > > Goglerr > p.s: I have faith in 'slowing down'! > 14024 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over Hi Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yuzhonghao > > I think that developing mindfulness is not enough. It is necessary > but not sufficient for eradicating defilements. > What specific qualties are you mentioning to? Thanks. kom 14025 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:24am Subject: cause & result Dear group, there is a parallel relationship between citta process and paticcasamuppada: they are both divided into cause and result. In ps avijja (ignorance) and sankhara (kama-formation) are causal; vinnana (consciousness), namarupa (mind and matter), ayatana (sense bases), phassa (impression), and vedana (feeling) are resultant; tanha (craving), upadana (clinging), and bhava (becoming) are causal; jati (rebirth), and jara-marana (old age and death) are resultant. In the citta process adverting consciousness, sense consciousness, receiving consciousness, and investigating consciousness are resultant, the others (I think?) are causal. Comparing these two lists, and Sarah's assertion that rupa in 5 door process is neither kamma cause nor kamma result, has led me to think that what is actually resultant in vipaka sense consciousess is the cetasikas. Suppose sometime in the past I was frightened by the sky. In the present I see the color blue; along with this sense consciousness a dosa cetasika arises as a result (vipaka) of the previous experience. This time, however, I cognize (in javana series?) this citta with dosa as merely kamma vipaka and 'not me'. In the future, when I see the sky again, the consciousness of the sky will arise (perhaps) with the cetasika 'this is kamma vipaka and not me'. This citta vipaka will, probably, then be again cognized (in javana?) as 'this is kamma vipaka and not me'. So the history of this exerience runs: sky consciousness (resultant) > fear (causal) > fear (resultant) > insight (causal) > insight (resultant) > insight (causal)... Causal consciousness following and reacting to resultant consciousness often, but not always, reinforces or copies the resultant, thereby causing the same future resultant consciousness when a similar object arises. Is this correct? Also, if someone could fill in some of these gaps, that would be appreciated. thanks, Larry ps: I made a mistake yesterday ascribing patisandhi citta to bhava nidana. I don't know where I got that but it probably should only be assigned to vinnana nidana. 14026 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 7:01am Subject: ADL ch. 13 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 13 (4) Kusala cittas and akusala cittas are bound to arise because we have accumulated both kusala and akusala. People are inclined to blame the world for the arising of their defilements since they do not know that defilements are accumulated in the citta; defilements are not in the objects around ourselves. One might wish to be without the six doors in order to have no defilements. However, the only way to eradicate defilements is : knowing the realities which appear through the six doors. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.III, par. 194, On fire) that the Buddha said to the monks: I will teach you, monks, a discourse (illustrated) by fire a Dhamma-discourse. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, is that discourse? It were a good thing, monks, if the organ of sight were seared with a red-hot iron pin, on fire, all ablaze, a glowing mass of flame. Then would there be no grasping of the marks or details of objects cognizable by the eye. The consciousness might stand fast, being firmly bound by the satisfaction either of the marks or the details (of the objects). Should one die at such a time, there is the possibility of his winning one of two destinies, either hell or rebirth in the womb of an animal. Seeing this danger, monks, do I so declare. It were a good thing, monks if the organ of hearing were pierced with an iron spike, on fire... if the organ of smell were pierced with a sharp claw, on fire... if the organ of taste were seared with a sharp razor, on fire... if the organ of touch were seared with a sword, on fire... It were a good thing, monks, to be asleep. For sleep, I declare, is barren for living things. It is fruitless for living things, I declare. It is dull for living things, I declare. For (if asleep) one would not be applying his mind to such imaginations as would enslave him, so that (for instance) he would break up the Order. Seeing this danger (of being awake), monks, do I so declare. As to that, monks, the well-taught Ariyan disciple thus reflects: 'Let alone searing the organ of sight with an iron pin, on fire, all ablaze, a glowing mass of flame, what if I thus ponder: Impermanent is the eye, impermanent are objects, impermanent is eye-consciousness, eye-contact, the pleasant or unpleasant or neutral feeling which arises owing to eye-contact, - - that also is impermanent...' So seeing, the well-taught Ariyan disciple is repelled by the eye, by objects, by eye-consciousness, by eye-contact. He is repelled by that pleasant or unpleasant or neutral feeling that arises owing to eye-contact... Being repelled he is dispassionate. Dispassionate, he is set free. By freedom comes the knowledge, 'I am freed', so that he realises: 'Destroyed is rebirth. Lived is the righteous life. Done is the task. For life in these conditions there is no hereafter.' Such, monks, is the Dhamma-discourse (illustrated) by fire. This sutta reminds us to be mindful at this moment, when we are seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing objects through the body-sense or through the mind-door. All these moments are functions, performed by different cittas which do not last. Questions 1. Which citta in a sense-door process determines the object before it is succeeded by akusala cittas or by kusala cittas? Is it accompanied by hetus (roots) or is it ahetuka? 2. Which citta in the mind-door process precedes the kusala cittas or akusala cittas arising in that process? What is its function? 3. Is the citta which in the mind-door process precedes the kusala cittas or akusala cittas the first citta of that process experiencing the object ? 4. Can this citta be accompanied by wisdom? 5. Sound is experienced through the ear-door and through the mind-door. Has the sound fallen away when it is experienced through the mind-door? 6. How many types of citta can perform the function of avajjana (adverting)? 14027 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:31am Subject: proud to be an American Looks like the judge who made the ruling on the pledge took some serious heat and buckled under pressure. That "indefinite hold" on the ruling will probably lead to an overturning. President Bush and Congress members said the ruling was outrageous. Glory! Nice to know everything is reverting back to normal. I pledge allegiance to the flag which represents a monotheistic republic led by a god fearing President and righteous constituents who forced a young atheist daughter and her father into hiding with threats of physical violence for practicing their constitutional right of religious freedom. Praise the Lord! -fk 14028 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:07am Subject: ayuhana (accumulation) Greetings dsg, here are a few snippets from Visuddhimagga on 'accumulations'. XIV 131: [on the formations (sankhara) aggregate] what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating. n. 57: "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampindana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating; for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis. (Pm. 484) XIV 135: [concerning volition] It wills (cetayati), thus it is volition (cetana); it collects, is the meaning. Its characteristic is the state of willing. Its function is to accumulate. It is manifested as co-ordinating. It accomplishes its own and others' functions, as a senior pupil, a head carpenter, etc., do. But it is evident when it occurs in the marshalling (driving) of associasted states in connexion with urgent work, remembering, and so on. XX 90: [concerning the 18 Principal Insights] one who develops the Contemplation of Fall [of formations] abandons accumulation [of kamma]. n. 28: "Contemplation of Destruction" is the contemplation of the momentary dissolution of formations. "Perception of compactness" is the assumption of unty in a continuity or mass or function or object. "Contemplation of destruction" is contemplation of non-existence after having been, they say. Contemplation of destruction is the understanding by means of which he resolves the compact into its elements and sees that it is impermanent in the sense of destruction. Its completion starts with contemplation of dissolution, and so there is abandoning of perception of compactness then, but before that there is not, because it has not been completed. The seeing of the dissolution of formations both by actual experience and by inference and the directing of attention to their cessation, in other words, their dissoution, is "contemplation of fall"; through it accumulation [of kamma] is abandoned; his consciousness does not incline with craving to the occurrence of that [aggregate-process of existence] for the purpose of which one accumulates [kamma]. 14029 From: wangchuk37 Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:34pm Subject: buddhist forum on cyberdistributeur hello, as you know yahoo is planning to make its services fee based so i have installed a buddhism forum at http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/yabbse/index.php which will of course remain free of charge, enjoy ! Roger 14030 From: shiau_in_lin Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:12pm Subject: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dearest Sarah, I am coming in to share information from the Tipitaka, Attasalini, Tika,Nekkiparana,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika,Abhidhammasangaha. The Benefits of Developing Satipanna from Scriptures 1. For the purification of all living being :- purification of the citta starting from the foundamental bases of sila, samadhi,panna 2. getting rid of lobha,dosa,moha 3. getting rid of lobha with mana and lobha with dhitti 4. getting rid of dosa,worries, envy,stingy 5. getting rid of moha 8 ( not knowing Ariya Sacca Dhamma 4, don't know Khandha and Dhatu in the past,present,future, don't know Patijasamupada) 6. knowing the cause of Akusula Kamma through thought,speech and bodily action which prevents the breaking of sila. 7. to surmount over the state of loss or dukkha from body and mind 8. To know the Ariya Sacca Dhamma(4 noble truth ) 9. To be Enlightened and obtain Parinabbana All this requires condition. Satipanna sutta is Kaya,Vedana, Citta, Dhamma Kaya is the body of 42 conditioned by :-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 1. Head hair:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 2. body hair:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 3. Nail :-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 4. teeth:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 5. Skin:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 6. Flesh:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 7. Sinews:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 8. Bone:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 9. Bone Marrow:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 10. Kidney:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 11. Heart:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 12. Liver:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 13. Midriff:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 14. Spleen:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 15. Lungs:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 16. Bowel:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 17. Entrails:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 18. Gorge:-Utu 19. Dung:-Utu 20. Brain:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 21. Bile:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 22. Phlegm:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 23. Pus:-Utu 24. Blood:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 25. Sweat:-Citta, Utu 26. Fat:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 27. Tears:-Citta, Utu 28. Grease:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 29. Spittle:-Citta, Utu 30. Snot:-Citta, Utu 31. Oil of the joints:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 32. Urine:-Utu 33. up-going wind (blurb):-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 34. down-going wind (flurt):-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 35. gas in the intestine:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 36. gas in the stomach:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 37. wind all over the whole body:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 38. breath:-Citta 39. warm in the body:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 40. warm burning causes aging:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 41. warm causes sickness:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 42. fire for digestion:-Kamma The part from 1-20 is Pathavi-dhatu = Earth element The part from 21-32 is Apo-dhatu = Water element The part from 33-38 is Vayo-dhatu = Wind element The part from 39-42 is Tejo-dhatu = Fire element The ugliness of the body which can be easily seen for contemplation is from part body 1-32. Each Kalapa of Rupa from 1-32 is contemplated with Abhidhamma and 24 conditions Like for the hair, each kalapa of the rupa is constemplated like the below:- 1. Kayapasada is conditioned by Kamma and 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja )and 1 Life rupa 1 Kayapasada rupa TOTAL of 10 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by kamma 2. Bhava Rupa is conditioned by Kamma and 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja )and 1 Life rupa 1 Female or Male rupa TOTAL of 10 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by kamma 3. Rupa conditioned by Citta 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja ) TOTAL of 8 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by citta 4. Rupa conditioned by Hara or Oja 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja ) TOTAL of 8 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by hara 5. Rupa conditined by Utu 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja ) TOTAL of 8 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by utu So we add all that up it becames 44 rupa in one kalapa rupa in the Hair part. This is the condition of all realities which is taught by the Buddha. If we contemplate the 32 parts of the body with the true idea of all the realities and its condition. Eventually the idea of self is not there. There will only be Rupa and Nama. The direct knowledge of all realities. With constant thinking of its conditions and its realities,eventually there will be no desire of holding on to the concept "hair" once we see ourself in the mirror or another person. The idea of all the dhamma and its condition will arise and that is realization of vipasana and samatha. It is not that all parts of the body is 44 rupa in 1 kalapa. Some parts are 33 rupa in 1 kalapa like for the Water elements of the body. The above is only a very small part of the Kaya nu passana in the Satipanna sutta which is clearing stated in all the scriptures related. If we only contemplate just the visible object which appears, it will detach the total idea of self or it will not completely eracidate the idea of a concept in everything we see. It requires full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and how it is conditioned and the practice of it according to the scripture, then we can understand the truth nature of Ariya Sacca Dhamma and its 3 characters of Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta of all things. This is a very small portion of what I would like to share from the scripture, which have explained completely and perfectly already by the Buddha. If there is anything which I have said or done, pls pardon me. Thankyou. Anumodana, Shin 14031 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thoughts triggered by Squirrels Dear Chris (& Larry & Dan) --- christine_forsyth This ramble isn't Larry's fault ....... let's blame it on the > Squirrel! Larry, just be careful not to mention those other S..... creatures...;-) Chris, I remember the squirrels (very like the ones we have here on the path above our apartment block) and the conversation about feeding various creatures. I’ve thought a little more about it: >I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that > concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was > kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of > feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the > correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then > akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the > sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? ..... I think the answer, as usual, is that we can’t evaluate the cittas (mind states) just by the action or outer appearance as I was suggesting when I was talking to Dan about helping the lady who had fallen over (Dan, I see on average about one a week here). Another city scene here, which I also face at least once a week, are the lost tourists with the map. Again, my instinct is to rush up to help ‘sort them out’, with some kindness, but also plenty of attachment as I enjoy the role of giving directions. However, men -- in particular I find -- often don’t want to be ‘sorted out’ and prefer to go in a few circles with their maps unaided. So, for me, sometimes there is more kusala involved in holding back, observing and not rushing forward to help. For Dan, it’s probably the opposite (and I agree that in a general or conventional sense we can talk about or see the other’s wholesome deeds). In the same way, for me, there may be more consideration involved in not feeding the squirrels or fish or handing out sweets or candy to children. It just depends. One may be feeding the animals out of consideration for one’s friends or children who enjoy the activity or there may really be some kindness or metta involved. In the park nearby, there are ponds with fish and turtles. At any time, next to the signs which say ‘Don’t feed the fish’, there will always be someone doing just that. Similarly, on the other side of the harbour, monkeys have become a serious problem from being over-fed in the country parks and bolder and bolder as a result to come into the city. We’re all told not to feed them, but I think people continue out of habit and perhaps out of attachment to having them come up close to feed. (Similar to the problem of the bird feeding in the Sydney suburbs which I saw in a documentary). Really, we can only know our own cittas at these times and certainly, whether we like going out to the cinema, for a walk, to feed the squirrels or stay behind to eat more breakfast, there’s bound to be attachment anyway. What do you think, Chris? I’ve rambled enough. Larry, I never heard of a pet squirrel before....send your friend’s squirrel our best wishes and let us know how it goes on the congee diet;-) Sarah ====== 14032 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Dear Larry, You suggest that ‘what is actually resultant in vipaka sense consciousness is the cetasikas’. To clarify, it is certain cittas, such as the sense door consciousness (seeing, hearing etc) and a few others that are vipaka cittas. Only the cetasikas which accompany these vipaka cittas are vipaka too. Therefore, cetasikas which only arise in javana processes (and not with these vipaka cittas), such as lobha or dosa (given in your example), are never vipaka or result. The way that cause and result is used when we are referring to kamma and vipaka is rather different from the way it is used in dependent origination (as I think Nina may have mentioned). > Causal consciousness following and reacting to resultant consciousness > often, but not always, reinforces or copies the resultant, thereby > causing the same future resultant consciousness when a similar object > arises. > > Is this correct? Also, if someone could fill in some of these gaps, that > would be appreciated. Let me put it this way: If dosa tends to arise on account of particular experiences (resultants or vipaka), then each time it arises, it will accumulate and be that much more likely to arise in future. It becomes ‘habit’. Furthermore, if it is strong enough to condition akusala kamma pattha through body, speech or mind, then the kamma (cetana cetasika) will cause a result (vipaka) in the future (depending on further conditions). With regard to paticca samuppada, we learn about the cycle of existence. If ignorance were eradicated, there would be no conditions for new kamma. Therefore, there would be no further vipaka (after the end of the current life), no sense door experience, contact, feeling, craving and so on as a result. So we learn the importance of developing understanding, which gradually eliminates ignorance. Understanding the nature of seeing or hearing consciousness as resultant consciousness (vipaka) and distinct from lobha or dosa which arise on account of these brief experiences, is an example of the development or bhavana that is essential in this task. I hope I haven’t confused you more or over-simplified. I appreciate all your helpful questions and study. (I’m always very glad to see Nina’s and Goglerr’s responses too). Sarah p.s. when I have time, I’ll try to find a reference or link for you on the causes (kamma, citta, temperature, nutriment) of different kinds of rupa which are never referred to as vipaka. I don’t want you left with the idea that it’s just what I say or think;-) ===================================================== 14033 From: sarahdhhk Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:09pm Subject: Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Shin, Welcome back to DSG! I'm very glad to hear from you again. --- "shiau_in_lin" wrote: > Dearest Sarah, > I am coming in to share information from the Tipitaka, Attasalini, > Tika,Nekkiparana,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika,Abhidha mmasangaha. > The Benefits of Developing Satipanna from Scriptures ..... It's good to hear you are studying the texts so carefully. As you mentioned to me (off-list), there really is "only one Teacher, The Lord Buddha" and we're very fourtunate to have all these texts available to us still at this time. ..... You also mentioned that now you are more inclined to `follow directly from the Scriptures' than to listen to any explanation or 'personal views'. I think many of us will appreciate this inclination and as I know, you now spend quite a lot of time out of Thailand, so it's better not to be dependent on any teacher. However, I think it really depends on different accumulations as to whether someone finds it more helpful to read the texts on their own, participate in discussions as we do here or listen to a teacher's explanations at any given time. Even if one were to find it sufficient to study on one's own, as you do, it can be helpful to others to share what one has learnt, I think. Anway, I certainly agree with your comments that "the Lord Buddha has already said everything perfectly in the Tipitaka". Sometimes we can just be good friends, pointing out to each other what is helpful. ..... > So we add all that up it becames 44 rupa in one kalapa rupa in the > Hair part. This is the condition of all realities which is taught by > the Buddha. If we contemplate the 32 parts of the body > with the true idea of all the realities and its condition. Eventually > the idea of self is not there. There will only be Rupa and Nama. The > direct knowledge of all realities. With constant thinking of its > conditions and its realities,eventually there will be no desire > of holding on to the concept "hair" once we see ourself in the > mirror or another person. The idea of all the dhamma and its > condition will arise and that is realization of vipasana and samatha. ...... Certainly Larry's question about the causes of the various rupas (in the body) was answered by your reference in detail I think. This has saved me from looking for a reference, thank you. I'm not sure that I fully agree, however, with your comment above about `with constant thinking......'. This may just be a language issue, but surely awareness (sati) rather than thinking will lead to more insight? ..... > If we only contemplate just the visible object which appears, it will > detach the total idea of self or it will not completely eracidate the > idea of a concept in everything we see. > It requires full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and how it is > conditioned and the practice of it according to the scripture, then > we can understand the truth nature of Ariya Sacca Dhamma and its 3 > characters of Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta of all things. ..... As I understand, Shin, only the Buddha himself had the full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and I think it depends on our different tendencies and accumulations as to which details it is possible to know and comprehend. If we just try to study and memorise the entire Abhidhamma, doesn't it then become another academic subject which will just be forgotten at the end of this life? ..... > > This is a very small portion of what I would like to share from the > scripture, which have explained completely and perfectly already by > the Buddha. > If there is anything which I have said or done, pls pardon me. > Thankyou. > Anumodana, ..... On the contrary, thank you for sharing the passages and letting us know about what you are finding helpful at this time. It's really great to see you hear again. Anumodana to you, Sarah ==================================== 14034 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Howard You posted this some time ago now, and I saved it for reply, to comment on a couple of things. I hope you don't mind me coming in at this late stage (I seem to have had precious little time to post lately). First, I appreciated your thoughtful words in reply to Christine. While I am not in full agreement with your comments on sila and samadhi (no surprise there, I'm sure !), I thought your other comments were very well said. Secondly, to pick up on the sila and samadhi point. This came up in the general context of 'dealing with defilements': --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Christine - … > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I > > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here is where sila and samadhi enter in, from my perspective. An > ongoing practice of observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear > comprehension, including a consistent guarding of the senses, will, by > itself, condition the development of a layer of calm in the mind, giving a > modicum of relative peace. With this as background, formal sitting and > walking meditation practice, essential from my perspective, can deepen and > strengthen that layer of calm, leading even to jhanic states which provide a > true but temporary haven and also condition the mind, making it more fit for > the cultivation of liberating pa~n~na. Throughout all this, ongoing > mindfulness should play the leadership role. You mention "observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear comprehension, including … guarding of the senses", and also mindfulness as playing a leadership role in the cultivation of panna. I believe you are referring here to an understanding of the teachings on the development of mindfulness (satipatthana). So far, all good stuff, to my understanding ;-)). But I am wondering why, that being the case, you should still see a formal sitting/walking practice and jhanic states as essential. Do you perhaps see the development of satipatthana as something that only takes one so far? The opening words of the Satipatthana Sutta describe the Four Arousings of Mindfulness as leading all the way to the final goal: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the *purification of beings*, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for *reaching the right path*, for the *attainment of Nibbana*, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." The commentary makes it clear that what begins as mundane awareness, properly developed and maintained, leads naturally and inevitably (albeit gradually) to the goal, including the eradication of all defilements. "'For the purification of beings.' For the cleansing of beings soiled by the stains of lust, hatred and delusion, and by the defilements of covetise, called lawless greed and so forth. All reach the highest purity after abandoning mental taints. … "'For reaching the right path.' The Noble Eightfold Path is called the right path. This preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness maintained (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way. … "This way maintained, effects the attainment of Nibbana, gradually." On my reading of the sutta, there is no need for any intervening 'samatha practice'. Jon PS Just to pre-empt any misunderstanding on the part of those who know me less well than you do, Howard, let me add a few words. I am of course not saying that sila and samadhi can be ignored. Indeed, I believe it is not really possible to be interested in the development of mindfulness without also being interested in all other levels and aspects of kusala including sila and samadhi (samatha). However, while it is clearly possible to have high levels of sila and samadhi without awareness/understanding (as in the time before the Buddha's enlightenment) the opposite -- no awareness/understanding without high levels of sila and samadhi -- is not the case. As awareness and understanding are developed this in itself has the effect of 'purifying' one's sila and samadhi, in a way that can never be realised by the 'practice' of these forms of kusala alone. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a > > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Whatever arises at any time is what there is for us to see. It's > all > impersonal, no matter how personal it might appear. Just see it. > Meanwhile, > the ongoing cultivation of sila and samadhi will calm the waters ... > gradually. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now > > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It *might* be so attributable. It's when we can first see a bit > that > is the occasion when we see things which were always there but > previously > missed. A poorly sighted person walking through a field of snakes > doesn't > create those snakes by putting on eyeglasses. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > It's as > > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up > > again. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > > conditions..... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > "Others seem," you write. But there is appearance and there is > reality. We can't really know the states of others - we guess, but often > > incorrectly. In practice, the states of others are not relevant in any > case. > Sure, we'd all "like to be in that group," but wanting things to be > other > than they are is suffering. Of course, we can't stop that wanting by > wanting > to stop it, for that is just more tanha and dukkha. But we can develop > the > habit of seeing whatever arises, including craving, noting it clearly > without > recrimination, and going on, and that is Buddhist practice. > -------------------------------------------------- > … > With metta, > Howard 14035 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Hi, Jon - I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of yours by a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara Nikaya which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of concentration, and 3) formal meditation. The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as *including* formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). The three refererences are the following: 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/28/02 10:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Howard > > You posted this some time ago now, and I saved it for reply, to comment on > a couple of things. I hope you don't mind me coming in at this late stage > (I seem to have had precious little time to post lately). > > First, I appreciated your thoughtful words in reply to Christine. While I > am not in full agreement with your comments on sila and samadhi (no > surprise there, I'm sure !), I thought your other comments were very well > said. > > Secondly, to pick up on the sila and samadhi point. This came up in the > general context of 'dealing with defilements': > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Christine - > … > > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > > > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I > > > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > > > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Here is where sila and samadhi enter in, from my perspective. An > > ongoing practice of observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear > > comprehension, including a consistent guarding of the senses, will, by > > itself, condition the development of a layer of calm in the mind, giving > a > > modicum of relative peace. With this as background, formal sitting and > > walking meditation practice, essential from my perspective, can deepen > and > > strengthen that layer of calm, leading even to jhanic states which > provide a > > true but temporary haven and also condition the mind, making it more fit > for > > the cultivation of liberating pa~n~na. Throughout all this, ongoing > > mindfulness should play the leadership role. > > You mention "observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear > comprehension, including … guarding of the senses", and also mindfulness > as playing a leadership role in the cultivation of panna. > > I believe you are referring here to an understanding of the teachings on > the development of mindfulness (satipatthana). So far, all good stuff, to > my understanding ;-)). > > But I am wondering why, that being the case, you should still see a formal > sitting/walking practice and jhanic states as essential. Do you perhaps > see the development of satipatthana as something that only takes one so > far? > > The opening words of the Satipatthana Sutta describe the Four Arousings of > Mindfulness as leading all the way to the final goal: > > "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the *purification of beings*, for > the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering > and grief, for *reaching the right path*, for the *attainment of Nibbana*, > namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." > > The commentary makes it clear that what begins as mundane awareness, > properly developed and maintained, leads naturally and inevitably (albeit > gradually) to the goal, including the eradication of all defilements. > > "'For the purification of beings.' For the cleansing of beings soiled by > the stains of lust, hatred and delusion, and by the defilements of > covetise, called lawless greed and so forth. All reach the highest purity > after abandoning mental taints. > … > "'For reaching the right path.' The Noble Eightfold Path is called the > right path. This preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness > maintained (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the > Supramundane Way. > … > "This way maintained, effects the attainment of Nibbana, gradually." > > On my reading of the sutta, there is no need for any intervening 'samatha > practice'. > > Jon > > PS Just to pre-empt any misunderstanding on the part of those who know me > less well than you do, Howard, let me add a few words. I am of course not > saying that sila and samadhi can be ignored. Indeed, I believe it is not > really possible to be interested in the development of mindfulness without > also being interested in all other levels and aspects of kusala including > sila and samadhi (samatha). However, while it is clearly possible to have > high levels of sila and samadhi without awareness/understanding (as in the > time before the Buddha's enlightenment) the opposite -- no > awareness/understanding without high levels of sila and samadhi -- is not > the case. As awareness and understanding are developed this in itself has > the effect of 'purifying' one's sila and samadhi, in a way that can never > be realised by the 'practice' of these forms of kusala alone. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > > > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a > > > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Whatever arises at any time is what there is for us to see. It's > > all > > impersonal, no matter how personal it might appear. Just see it. > > Meanwhile, > > the ongoing cultivation of sila and samadhi will calm the waters ... > > gradually. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now > > > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > It *might* be so attributable. It's when we can first see a bit > > that > > is the occasion when we see things which were always there but > > previously > > missed. A poorly sighted person walking through a field of snakes > > doesn't > > create those snakes by putting on eyeglasses. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's as > > > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up > > > again. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > > > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > > > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > > > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > > > conditions..... > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > "Others seem," you write. But there is appearance and there is > > reality. We can't really know the states of others - we guess, but often > > > > incorrectly. In practice, the states of others are not relevant in any > > case. > > Sure, we'd all "like to be in that group," but wanting things to be > > other > > than they are is suffering. Of course, we can't stop that wanting by > > wanting > > to stop it, for that is just more tanha and dukkha. But we can develop > > the > > habit of seeing whatever arises, including craving, noting it clearly > > without > > recrimination, and going on, and that is Buddhist practice. > > -------------------------------------------------- > > … > > With metta, > > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14036 From: <> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha or dosa? Larry 14037 From: <> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Sarah, sorry for the typo. I assure you I don't think you are Satan. Too hasty. Larry ------------ >Larry wrote: Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha or dosa? Larry 14038 From: shiau_in_lin Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:15am Subject: Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Sarah, > I'm not sure that I fully agree, however, with your comment above > about `with constant thinking......'. This may just be a language > issue, but surely awareness (sati) rather than thinking will lead > to more insight? We can use anything word or call it whatever but the process of the citta has accumulated the contemplating of the realities or about the realities. At that moment, it is already the accumulation of panna and sati. There is definitely no attachment of the sensual objects, only letting go of ignorance. Everything is accumulated, even if you memorized the whole Tipitaka, it will be a Upanissa-paccaya in the future. And when it is conditioned, it will arise. Remember Javana citta and all the Paccaya. We are not looking at only now. There is still a future Khanda or Ayatana. I will not be able to come in as often as I can. BUT if there is anything which is nice, I will try my best to quote it from the Tipitaka and other commentaries for the reference of others. Sarah ! In most Sutta,the Lord Buddha constantly mentioned the Bhukkhuis to remember and contemplate his teaching. I believe in him. If it is not beneficiary, why would he say it !...Doesn't that make you wonder ? Any way it is up to your own faith. From my recent experiences, it has helped me in understanding the realities in my daily life because it is like a road map for me to reference on. OK ! I guess I am talking more than I should. Take care. Kalayamitta, Shin 14039 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] buddhist forum on cyberdistributeur Dear Friends, I have heard this rumour about yahoo, but have never seen any evidence of it. Yahoo has never contacted me nor has ever sent any news flashes saying that they will start charging a fee for anything. I am a subscriber to one of their oversized email boxes, so I already pay a fee for an optional service, and I'm sure they would tell me if my other yahoo services were going to become fee-based. I also moderate a very small private yahoo group which I use to chat with a few friends, and as moderator have received no notification of any plans to charge a fee for anything. Has anyone seen or received any communciations that suggest that yahoo is actually going to do this? To Roger I would ask: how did you hear about this? Is it word of mouth, or something more reliable? And thanks for offering your site for a forum. Best, Robert Ep. ============ --- wangchuk37 wrote: > hello, > as you know yahoo is planning to make its services fee based so i > have installed a buddhism forum at > http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/yabbse/index.php > > which will of course remain free of charge, > > enjoy ! > > Roger 14040 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Rob Ep, do not leave. Yes, dear friends, and happy to be here! Thanks for thinking of me, and sorry for the misunderstanding!! Best, Robert Ep. ====== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina & Lodewijk, > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > Lodewijk told me to plead with you not to leave. > > You might not have read the end of my message to Rob Ep. It turns out (see > message below) it was just a misunderstanding and he never intended to > leave. He thought he was replying to Ken and Visakkha asking to be taken > of their mailing list only, not realizing the circulars were coming from > DSG. > > Sarah > ====== > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Ha ha, Sarah, > > this is a funny misunderstanding. > > > > I believe I received those emails in my 'in-box' and was asking to be > > removed from > > > > *their* list, not dsg. I was not aware that these emails were > > originating from > > dsg and had infiltrated the list. > > > > I have no desire to be removed from dsg, nor do I want to be on 'no > > emails!' > > Isn't this silly? If you can put me back onto 'emails' I am happy to > > receive them > > in my email box. I have a special file for dsg posts that takes them > > directly > > into the folder, and I can then worry about which ones to read!!!! > > > > well, this has been quite a silly thing. ........... And please put me > back on 'emails' setting, so I can get > > the full > > overwhelming volume of dsg messages! 14041 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:05am Surject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob Ep on Love (was: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing?) Yes, Robert, I'm here it seems for the duration. Thanks, Robert, for your kind words...although I wonder why you didn't appreciate me more when I was 'here'? Truthfully, thanks for caring. I never meant to create such an incident. I know this whole thing represents my own attachments and bad karma, all of which is deserved because of my past actions. [okay that was a joke again but may be true]. As for my views on marriage, I'm a little more conservative than I used to be. I used to be kind of a hippie, but since I've been married and had a child [just turned four], I'm very family oriented and pretty strict in some ways. So I would say that relationships and commitments are very important to me, but on the other hand I'm in favor of any arrangments along those lines that anyone wants to make. Gay marriages, single parent families, etc., are all okay with me as long as they are fine with the participants. But I am not currently the editor of Psychology Today, and if so appointed, would immediately resign. Well it's all been a shock to me as well, to be removed from dsg unwittingly, then to be reinstated just as quickly, then to discover I'm a major psychologist and apparently have these blackouts when I think I'm an acting teacher. Best, Robert Ep. ============================ --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Rob. > Whew thats relieving. I know we disagree on a few points here and > there - minor ones, but they keep coming up. And there has been the > odd occasion where I've been hardpushed to get through all your > messages:) But I only realised how attached I am to your posts once > it looked like they wern't going to arrive anymore. Funny > robert > 14042 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Dear Howard, By now you have discovered that the whole thing was a misunderstanding. I am happy to be back. My only regret is that I think I may have missed a substantive post from you to me? If so I can't find it too easily in the archives and I wonder if you could possibly repost it? Thanks for your good advice. If these emails keep piling up I may take it some day! Best, Robert Ep. ====== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > Why not go to the web site and change your status so that you don't > get any mail sent to you at all, but leaving you the option to read and > respond to posts from the web site? > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 6/25/02 12:14:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing list. > > > > Thank You, > > Robert Epstein 14043 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. As you wish, Howard. : ) but it still remains a problem that everything that exists is contained within the five kandhas, including namas; and that nibbana is a nama that is unconditioned by the five kandhas. Someday someone will have to explain how that is not a contradiction on the very face of it. And that the citta of an sotapanna is conditioned but he has the vision of the unconditioned 'object' which is not an object through this conditioned object. Or if his citta that perceives nibbana is not conditioned, then it is an unconditioned citta, even though all cittas are conditioned. Should be interesting. Hmmn....I guess I'm back. And as usual, waiting for an expert opinion to dissolve my confusion. Robert Ep. ========= --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/24/02 2:03:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Well since there is nothing that exists that is outside of the five > > khandas, one > > has to ask of Nibbana: does this knowing exist? And is Nibbana then an > > awareness > > that knows, an awareness beyond the kandhas? > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ====== > > > ==================================== > I suspect that there is nothing further to be said, and that even what > I have already conjectured about nibbana is too much. Whatever it is, nibbana > is beyond all categories of speech. Perhaps we should just leave it as the > "the unconditioned". > > With metta, > Howard > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > > > > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > > > > Is it classified as a nama? > > > > > > > > > > > ======================= > > > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas > > is to > > > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > > > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I > > understand > > > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence > > of > > > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that > > absence > > > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > > > knowing, it is nama. > > > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" > > is a > > > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > > > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all > > conditions > > > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > > > > > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 14044 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/24/02 1:54:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > I will eventually work my way backward through posts and find out what > > happened to > > you. But suffice it to say that I was sorry to realize you were sick, and > > quite > > happy to hear that you are now well. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thank you! I would say that as of just yesterday I have am finally on > the mend. I feel much better. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > My own Father's Day was very nice. Went with my wife and recently turned > > 4 year > > old daughter to a Minor League baseball game. To celebrate the day, they > > let > > fathers and kids come down onto the field after the game and run the bases. > > My > > four year old Emily was quite a good little base runner and I really felt > > like a > > dad. Since I've always felt like a kid myself it's quite a transition to > > see what > > a real child is like, quite inspiring actually. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This sounds great! Your description creates a real (and lovely) > "Americana" image in my mind! :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Anyway, I hope you have a *great* Australian Father's Day when it comes > > around, > > compliments of Christine. : ) > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes! ;-) That was a nice offering from her. Actually, Fathers Day > presents still await me, and sometime soon the family will hold its own > belated celebration. > -------------------------------------------------------- That sounds like it will be very nice Howard. Even though we had our nice outing, my wife was unable to get a present or card at the time of the real Father's Day because of her work schedule. I returned from teaching at night a few nights ago to find a belated Father's Day card from my busy working wife, along with a grab bag of treats. She had correctly observed all of my little health food candies that I like and collected a small sack of them for me at the health food store. I had both a warmed heart and a good laugh. Such is the modern Father's Day. Best, Robert Ep. 14045 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/24/02 1:54:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > I will eventually work my way backward through posts and find out what > > happened to > > you. But suffice it to say that I was sorry to realize you were sick, and > > quite > > happy to hear that you are now well. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thank you! I would say that as of just yesterday I have am finally on > the mend. I feel much better. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > My own Father's Day was very nice. Went with my wife and recently turned > > 4 year > > old daughter to a Minor League baseball game. To celebrate the day, they > > let > > fathers and kids come down onto the field after the game and run the bases. > > My > > four year old Emily was quite a good little base runner and I really felt > > like a > > dad. Since I've always felt like a kid myself it's quite a transition to > > see what > > a real child is like, quite inspiring actually. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This sounds great! Your description creates a real (and lovely) > "Americana" image in my mind! :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Anyway, I hope you have a *great* Australian Father's Day when it comes > > around, > > compliments of Christine. : ) > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes! ;-) That was a nice offering from her. Actually, Fathers Day > presents still await me, and sometime soon the family will hold its own > belated celebration. > -------------------------------------------------------- That sounds like it will be very nice Howard. Even though we had our nice outing, my wife was unable to get a present or card at the time of the real Father's Day because of her work schedule. I returned from teaching at night a few nights ago to find a belated Father's Day card from my busy working wife, along with a grab bag of treats. She had correctly observed all of my little health food candies that I like and collected a small sack of them for me at the health food store. I had both a warmed heart and a good laugh. Such is the modern Father's Day. Best, Robert Ep. 14046 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Dear Sarah, Thanks for this great quote. I would be very interested in reading more about the way in which nibbana as an unconditioned and 'empty' [of objects] nama, bends the lokutarra citta towards it, and how nibbana is experienced or transformed by the lokutarra citta that experiences it. In other words: more about what type of object nibbana is. Would you have any references for that? A very interesting description!! Best, Robert Ep. ======== --- sarahdhhk wrote: > Dear RobK, Rob Ep & Howard, > > Nina wrote and quote a little on this before in this post: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/63 > 42 > > Let me quote a little from it in case Rob Ep is too busy catching > up to chase the link;-) > > Nina: >In the first book of the Abhidhamma, the > Dhammasangani (Buddhist > Psychological Ethics) Nibbana is referred to as the > unconditioned element, > asankhata dhatu (See Appendix II) and it is nama or arupa( non > rupa), but it > is different from conditioned nama, it does not experience an > object. > Realities are either nama or rupa, and since nibbana is not rupa > it is > classified as nama. Kom has explained very clearly about the > classification > of the four paramattha dhammas. > We read in the Atthasalini, Expositor (II, Book II, Part II, Suttanta > Couplets, 392) an explanation of nama. Nama is derived from > namati, bending > towards an object, and it can also be a name. Citta and cetasika > bend > towards an object, experience an object. And also: they cause > one another to > bend on to the object: "The four khandhas are name (nama) in > the sense of > bending, for they bend towards the object. In the sense of > causing to bend > all (of the foregoing, namely nibbana and the four nama > khandhas) are "name" > (nama). For the four khandhas cause one another to bend on to > the object; > and nibbana bends faultless dhammas on to itself by means of > the causal > relation of the dominant influence of the object." > Thus, nibbana does not bend towards an object, it does not > experience an > object, but, it is predominant object condition for the lokuttara > cittas > that experience it, it bends them towards itself in that way> > ***** > Sarah > ====. 14047 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Thanks Rob. The recent quote from Sarah went a long way. Looking forward to more references on this. Uh oh...homework.... Robert Ep. ===== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Rob and Howard, > I thought I'd been able to let this one slip by. It is a good > question and one I don't think I can answer properly. > Howard asked "If nibbana is not a knowing, why is it nama? I fact, > why > > > isn't it rupa??""' > The reason it isn't a rupa (matter) is obvious and not neccesary for > me to address. Why it is clasfied in the Abhidhamma as nama is > harder to say. It is outside the khandhas, it is not consciousness, > feeling, sanna, or sankhara. It is the end of all conditioned > phenomenena. > Suan explained some aspects of this to me last year and I was very > greatful; the best I can do is say that he explained that nibbana is > to be known. Thus I guess it is classified as nama because it is to > be known by path consciousness. > I guess that doesn't say much? > best wishes > robert > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Wow, Howard, that is a really good question. > > I think you've got something there. > > > > I will wait with great anticipation for the answer! : ) > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ============== > > > > --- <> wrote: > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > In a message dated 6/20/02 8:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > You say nibbana is a knowing. I don't think this is in > accordance > > > > with the teachings of Theravada. But anyway what does it know? > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > Howard: > > > Absence. BTW, if nibbana is not a knowing, why is it > nama? I fact, why > > > isn't it rupa?? > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > robert > > > ===================== > > > With metta, > > > Howard 14048 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Hi, Rob - I don't recall any recent post of import, but I'll check. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/28/02 6:09:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Dear Howard, > By now you have discovered that the whole thing was a misunderstanding. I > am > happy to be back. > > My only regret is that I think I may have missed a substantive post from > you to > me? If so I can't find it too easily in the archives and I wonder if you > could > possibly repost it? > > Thanks for your good advice. If these emails keep piling up I may take it > some > day! > > Best, > Robert Ep. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14049 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Hi, Rob - I think the most recent post I may have sent to you, and not of much import, had the following content: Hi, Rob - In a message dated 6/24/02 2:03:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Well since there is nothing that exists that is outside of the five > khandas, one > has to ask of Nibbana: does this knowing exist? And is Nibbana then an > awareness > that knows, an awareness beyond the kandhas? > > Robert Ep. > > ====== > ==================================== I suspect that there is nothing further to be said, and that even what I have already conjectured about nibbana is too much. Whatever it is, nibbana is beyond all categories of speech. Perhaps we should just leave it as the "the unconditioned". With metta, Howard > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > <> writes: > > > > > > > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > > > Is it classified as a nama? > > > > > > > > ======================= > > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas > is to > > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I > understand > > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence > of > > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that > absence > > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > > knowing, it is nama. > > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" > is a > > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all > conditions > > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > > > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14050 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > … > > > I'm sure I've asked this before, but I don't recall having had a > > response. When > > > you > > > say you judge practices by their effects, does that mean effects in > > terms of the > > > dhamma and, if so, what effects found in the teachings would you be > > referring > > > to? > > > > Well, the preliminary problem in answering that is that 'in terms of the > > dhamma' > > is subject to the individual's evaluation. You can say that anything > > that creates > > kusala effects is in line with the dhamma, or you can say that only > > those things > > which are explicitly mentioned in the suttas are in line with the > > dhamma, or you > > could say that those things which lead us to the dhamma by hook or by > > crook are in > > line with the dhamma, because we all come to the dhamma by various > > combinations of > > conditions and actions. > > To my way of thinking, a 'practice' should be judged by whether leads to > detachment, understanding and, ultimately, enlightenment. Any practice > that may bring other shorter-term gains but does not lead to escape is in > fact going to prologue our time in samsara. > > Of course, developing various kinds of kusala at any opportunity is not a > form of 'practice' and is always to be encouraged. > > Jon > Hi Jon, My criteria would also be whether a practice brings one towards the path that eventually brings one to enlightenment. Any benefits that do not lead towards enlightenment or that delay or lead away from enlightenment, would not be wished for, as they would prolong or increase suffering. The question is, whether these practices aid the progress towards enlightenment or not. And I am not sure whether either of us can know that with certainty either pro or con. At best we have our educated, or less educated, guesses, and mine is that if a practice creates conditions that are in line with the dhamma then it is an aid towards the path of enlightenment, and if not, then not. If one was to develop genuine peacefulness and discernment through yoga, then the yoga would be an aid towards enlightenment. If those qualities were developed on the surface but were accompanied by akusala pride in self at accomplishing these qualities or if they were masking other akusala effects that were in the wrong direction, then they would be obstacles, not aids. There is still going to be personal interpretation involved. If a Sutta mentions that many arahants were sitting in the cross-legged position while entering the jhanas; I am sure that you will say this is a coincidence and that it is a description not a prescription; and that I will say it is the path itself. Where do we each get our separate interpretations? My guess is that it is because of our backgrounds and tendencies: yours in Abhidhamma; mine in yoga and vipassana meditation as well as mahayana studies. So is either one of us right, or are we just 'being ourselves' and following our own predilections in this lifetime? Best, Robert Ep. 14051 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > I would also like to look into the Visudhimagga and see what is said > > about the jhanas. > > > > Hmmn....that means homework...... > > OK, it's a topic that interests me, too, so here's a suggestion. If you > indicate what aspects of the jhanas you're interested in looking into, > I'll try to find some relevant passages in the Vism and post them to the > list. > > No hurry, though. Just when you're ready. ;-)) > > Jon Jon, That's a great offer [as I work my way backwards through three hundred posts, ha ha]. Well I am interested in any description or commentary in the Vissudhimagga which talks about the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, but also the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas themselves. Anything in those areas would be of great interest to me. I'm not sure why I hooked onto the subject of the jhanas when I heard about them sort of belatedly last year. I hadn't noticed them before, so it must be a kammic occurrence for me to look into something about them. They are so prominent in many Theravadan writings and practices and seem to me at least to outline the pathway of states that lead to enlightenment in a concretely available way, rather than an intellectual way. Of course whatever we read about will be intellectual in a sense, but I think the subject may 1/ make clear what some of the states of consciousness/Right Concentration are in the progression of the path, and 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. I am curious as to why it interests you as well. If you were to say a word about your interest in the jhanas, it might also help me clarify my interest a bit more. Anyway, like a dog who hears a bird, this subject just makes my ears perk up, so anything you might find would be of great interest to me. Thanks, Robert Ep. 14052 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Hi, it's me again. Thanks for the many replies sent over the past week or > 2 to my earlier posts. I am slightly overwhelmed by the sheer number and > size of them, ;-)), coming as they did all at once (there must have been 1 > or 2 all-night sessions at around that time) but I can assure you I'll be > getting round to replying, and soon I hope. > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > Hi Jon. > > Well, I never saw this post and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your > > kind > > explanation of the emphases in Abhidhamma. As I have been giving the > Abhidhamma a > > rather hard time on paramatha dhammas lately, and probably causing some > akusala > > reactions to arise towards myself, I would like to say that I think your > > explanation for the emphasis on dry insight makes a lot of sense. The > belief that > > there will be subsequent lifetimes when the dhamma will not be available > > also helps to explain the current emphasis on dhamma study. > > I'm glad you found something in the post that helps put the abhidhamma in > a better perspective. > > I'm not sure whether your remark about 'emphasis on dry insight' refers to > me or to the abhidhamma, but I wouldn't necessarily agree in either > context. To my mind the Abhidhamma simply explains what is and what can > possibly be, and in what combinations, rather than indicating what should > be. It explains that samatha and insight are distinct forms of kusala > each having its own cause and means of development, and leading to > different goals. Samatha properly developed leads to jhana, and insight > properly developed leads to enlightenment. > > For one who attains enlightenment having first attained jhana, the > enlightenment *may* (but not *will necessarily*) be based on the jhana, > but even so the enlightenment is the culmination of the development of > insight and not of the samatha. > > I do not read the texts as suggesting that a person who attains > enlightenment having first attained samatha does so because of any > conscious decision on the matter, any more than a person chooses to be > born as a member of one sex or the other, yet you could say that in either > case that outcome nevertheless depends wholly and solely on choices made > by the person in his or her previous lives. > > Likewise in my own studies, I see no 'emphasis on dry insight', but simply > an attempt to understand what is the essence of insight, as distinct from > samatha. I believe that whatever one's inclinations to samatha, this > knowledge is indispensible and is available to us only during the > dispensation of a Buddha. > > Jon Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is not necessary. To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree with you [!] that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening factor. My sense of the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization are a factor in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality. But i would like to see what the Visudhimagga says. So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come up with. I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not lead to insight or enlightenment. So there must at the very least be a balance. The jhanas, i would think, being very deep samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of concentration might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight. There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practicing the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval? Best, Robert Ep. 14053 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Weeks later: thanks for this. I will read it in more detail as time allows. Appreciated. Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- Robert Epstein > wrote: > Sarah, > Can you please explain how concepts are not impermanent because not > real? I don't > get the connection. if something is unreal but it is thought of, > what is not > impermanent about that? It seems to me that the opposite of > impermanent is > permanent. Are you saying that that which is unreal must be > permanent? i can't > see what that could possibly mean, since something that is not real, > rather than > being permanent, doesn't even exist in the first place. It only > exists when > thought of, since it has no other existence, and thus would still be > quite > impermanent as far as I can see. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > Dear Rob.E. > This might explain: > The Dhamma Theory > Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA > Y. Karunadasa The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 (Buddhist > Publication society) > Karunadasa: > """because pannattis are without corresponding objective reality, the > commentaries call them asabhava-dhammas -- things without a real > nature -- > to distinguish them from the real elements of existence.Since > sabhava, the > intrinsic nature of a dhamma, is itself the dhamma, from the point > of view > of this definition what is qualified as asabhava amounts to an > abhava, a > non-existent in the final sense. It is in recognition of this fact > that > the three salient characteristics of empirical reality -- origination > (uppada), subsistence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga) -- are not > applied > to them. For these three characteristics can be predicated only of > those > things which answer to the Abhidhammic definition of empirical > reality. > Again, unlike the real existents, pannattis are not brought about by > conditions (paccayatthitika). For this same reason, they are also > defined > as "not positively produced" (aparinipphanna). Positive production > (parinipphannata) is true only of those things which have their own > individual nature (avenika-sabhava). Only a dhamma that has an own- > nature, > with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and > marked by > the three salient characteristics of conditioned existence, is > positively > produced. > > Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are > delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the > pannattis > can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva > sambhonti); > and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." Pannattis > have no > own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, > presence, > and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three > phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do > not > apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time > (kalavimutta). > For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional > analysis > of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included > in the > khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be > subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic > of > pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned > (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess > their > own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of > the > conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the > description > of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of > underscoring their unreality."">> > best wishes > robert 14054 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob Ep, > > > > You'd better keep it to refer to when you forget what you agreed > > to;-). > > > > ha ha, that's very true! > > ;-) > > > is that because that which isn't actual can not be either permanent or > > impermanent? > ..... > Right. We don’t need a Buddha to teach us about stories and > concepts...there is no lack of expertise here. the Teachings are concerned > (as the radical phenomenologists would say too, eh Howard) with what can > be directly known and experienced. We can think and think for ever, but > never come up with the truth. > ..... > Sarah > ===== > > P.S. (silly and frivolous-be warned) > Rob, I'm also thinking that if you're still struggling to finish your book > on acting and 'live' role-plays, we could maybe help out with a little > cross-dressing (as Chris & Kom were discussing this I think), drag out a > few of the more zany members (I mean sensible and rational is all very > well, but it doesn’t sell books), have Erik instructing us on a few debate > strategies with all the gesticulations and posturing, have As change > places with Bs, you and Nina reading posts backwards and upside down, > Frank attaining jhanas in his vigorous astanga series, Wynn and friends > attempting miracles.....Oh and you and Sukin falling asleep as you write > booklets to each other at 3am.....Num speaking Pali ..hmm, talk about > concepts and proliferations. Of course, dialogue is no prob...you’re > spoilt for choice in the archives here;-) Dear Sarah, Better be careful...the above sounds like it has the makings of a very very interesting play....hmnnn..... Regards, Robert Ep. 14055 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities. Dear Howard, This is a very nice post, and one of the clearest on paramatha dhammas to my mind. Allow to make a few comments back, interspersed below: --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 5/22/02 10:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Hi, Jon - > > > > > > In a message dated 5/22/02 8:50:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > Howard > > > > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > â€| > > > > > We are in basic agreement on this Robert, but, actually, I > > think > > > > > that > > > > > Abidhamma is as well. As I understand it, the Buddhist perspective, > > and > > > > > most explicitly so in Abhidhamma, is a phenomenalist one which > > doesn't > > > > > countenance objects existing independently of experience. > > > > > > > > Here I have to enter a possible disagreement, but one that I hope may > > also > > > > turn out to be more a matter of terminology than of substance ;-). > > > > > > > > > There is no hardness other than the experience of hardness, > > > > > at least none that can be actually known. > > > > > > > > I see a difference between the 2 assertions in your preceding > > statement, > > > > namely that-- > > > > (a) There is no hardness other than the hardness being experienced. > > > > (b) There is no hardness that can be actually known other than the > > > > hardness being experienced > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > There *is* a difference. Position (b) is the general phenomenalist > > > > > one. Position (a) is the radical phenomenalist one which represents an > > > admixture of phenomenalism with pragmatism - what is in principle > > unknowable > > > is "as good as" nonexistent. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > The statement at (b) is clearly so, in terms of the teachings (to my > > > > understanding). > > > > > > > > The statement at (a) needs to be qualified, I think. Hardness like any > > > > other reality arises because of conditions. In the case of the > > hardness > > > > that we take as being part of an inanimate object (like a table, tree > > or > > > > building), those conditions do not include the fact of their being the > > > > object of someone's citta. In other words, the hardness does not arise > > > > dependent on there being someone there to experience it. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > Ahh, but "the hardness that we take as being part of an inanimate > > > object (like a table, tree or building)" is concept-only. There being no > > > tables, trees, and buildings, there is no hardness possessed by them. > > > > Dear Howard, > > I wonder if it's really correct to say that there are "no tables, trees an > > buildings'. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > From my perspective, it is conventionally false but ultimately (and > pragmatically) true. That's my perspective - perspective (a), but I'm not > suggesting it be anyone else's. > ---------------------------------------------------- Well, just again to clarify this position, because it is extremely radical; you are saying that you believe that an actual object made of wood sitting on four legs probably does not actually exist. We put that together through the concept that unifies a number of different phenomenal properties experienced through feeling-door, seeing-door, etc., one moment at a time, such as hardness, smoothness, 'woody smell', 'visual whorls', angle shape, pain [interpreted as bumping into table], etc.? It is also possible to say less radically, but perhaps less Buddhistically.....'I do believe the concept is a sketch of something that probably *is* out there, a square object on legs that has plates and things actually on it. However, a human being cannot perceive this 'whole object' - all we get are aspects, one at a time, and put the picture together more or less accurately through experience. And: at any time when we do encounter the table, we always encounter it in relation to our current perception and intention, so it is never the same table, but is variously the table to set, the table to sit at, the table to eat at, the table to lean on while talking, etc. So there is not an 'is' table that is always the same, but there is some kind of physical object out there independent of us, probably.' And that would also be a reasonable assertion from our experience of sensual details and unifying concepts. Phenomenology was actually my area of concentration for my BA in Philosophy many centuries ago in the last ice age, and my sense from studying Husserl, Merleau-Ponty and a bit of Sartre [The Transcendence of the Ego] was that they were more inclined to the second position, which is a bit more common-sensical. But they veered towards your position at times as well. I think they straddled the line. I think that if the more radical formulation is taken as true, one has to truly look at this life as a dream in order to have that make any sense; in other words, one has to doubt the inherent solidity of physical reality, and work with the idea that this reality is basically a product of mind only, that there is no physical universe. It's a phantasm. Under that formulation, the creation of conceptual objects through acts of nama and rupa makes sense. A seeming physical existence with a seeming body having seeming sense-moments, all produced as a kind of hallucination. A kind of juggling act which keeps the concept of table alive through producing rupas of hardness, etc. I am not sure if this is where the Abhidhamma leads or not, I think some here would object to this radical a formulation. I kind of gravitate towards this. In a dream, things seem solid and whole, but they are just pliable and partial, subject to the mind's creative bent. But each thing created seems to take its logical place, even though it wasn't there a moment before. > Just as Buddha was unwilling to say bluntly that 'there is no self',> > > I doubt he would assert the nonexistence of tables either. Rather, I think > > he > > might say that the idea that we experience a 'table' when we experience > > 'hardness' > > is a concept. And we can never know 'table' since the concept 'table' is a > > collection of experiences that each add up to only one or another direct > > quality. > > None of these ever adds up to 'table' in actual experience, only as a > > deductive > > conclusion. Experientially speaking, and in the service of knowing the > > reality of > > the present moment, 'table' does not exist except as a concept. But this > > does not > > mean that 'table' as some sort of cosmic reality outside of experience > > either does > > or doesn't exist. It just means what Jon said when he cited version (b) > > and said > > that version (a) that no other object existed except for the one > > experienced was > > much more radical, perhaps more radical than necessary. > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Conventionally there are tables, and there is a keyboard that I am > typing on, and a chair I am sitting on. What is more, I am perceiving all > these things "out there". That's conventional truth, and it enables me to > function quite nicely in this world, this intersubjective realm of > experience, which is MIND MADE. But when I look carefully - very carefully, I > actually only experience what the Abhidhammikas call paramattha dhammas, and > these are all "in here", not "out there" - and, of course, impermanent, > unsatisfactory, impersonal, and insubstantial. > ------------------------------------------------------- Yup, I believe you're saying that the physical universe is inherently insubstantial and holographic in nature. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I agree that perceptions are really 'in here' rather than 'out there' although there's no 'inside' to a mental projection. It's just 'of mind', neither inner nor outer, since there are really no objects to be inside or outside of. > > So is there a table somewhere out in the world beyond the senses of humans? > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't think so. I'm actually not even sure what that would mean. > --------------------------------------------------------- It would mean that there is a real physical object sitting there, and we have real bodies over here. And the senses bridge the gap, but imperfectly. In other words, a Kantian universe, rather than a Merleau-Pontian one. Anything that is not metaphysical in nature winds up being inherently empirical in nature. It is very difficult to say 'there is a physical world' and then not be totally constrained by the laws of physics that it portends. > Not> > > as far as we experience directly. Still, our deductive reasoning by which > > we > > 'conceptualize' table and deal with the 'table' that we coordinate between > > our > > momentary experiences and concepts works pretty well to allow us to eat, > > drink and > > be merry, or whatever else we do on the 'table'. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No disagreement. The patterns of relations among actually experienced > conditions are such that our minds are able to create this world of apparent > things, and navigate within it. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > So it may be that there *is* something resembling a 'table', but that we > > just > > can't experience it directly all at once, and thus shouldn't confuse > > concept with > > reality. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, the only thing I know for sure about that is that there is, in > principle, no way of knowing such a thing "out there" which is responsible > for our experience of table, for all we ever experience is the very content > of experience, itself. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > What happens if we neither confirm nor deny the existence of 'table' as an > > object > > out there, but really strive to distinguish between what we actually > > experience > > and what we *think* [conceptualize] that we experience? > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What happens if we neither confirm nor deny the existence of a self? I > think that is Victor's position. But the pragmatist position is that whatever > is not known, and is in principle unknowable is effectively nonexistent. > --------------------------------------------------- > I think it makes for much> > > more clear and skillful action, and more importantly, allows us to begin to > > discern the actuality of the mind and senses which leads us towards the > > necessary > > sati and panna needed for awakening. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. Whatever an individual finds helpful is that person's business. > I don't want to even begin to attempt to foist my position on you or anyone. > It makes sense to me. That's all. Could I be all wrong? Sure!! > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > And in the meantime I think it's also skillful to be mindful of how we use > > concepts in order to 'navigate' in samsara. It's not as if the need to use > > a fork > > goes away because one develops a bit of discernment. So how do we use > > concepts in > > the moment to coordinate the idea of 'fork' with the getting of the food to > > the > > mouth? Pretty interesting. > > > > Perhaps an arahant can navigate eating a meal using only the immediate > > sensations > > of > > hardness/coolness/roughness/sourness/under-the-tongueness/swallowing/etc., > > without forming a concept of 'food' or 'fork', which would explain the > > Buddhist > > meditation on food in which it takes five minutes to take and swallow one > > bite. > > > > Anyway, I wonder what you think about this? Distinguishing between concept > > and > > nama/rupa is important, but concepts also seem necessary. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The world we live in is a world of concepts, and concepts are needed > to function in it. I expect this is even so for a Buddha. I just don't think > a Buddha (or arahant) is taken in by those concepts. > ------------------------------------------------------- Yup, that makes sense. Best, Robert Ep. 14056 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Sarah and Robert - > > > Robert, you and I understand concepts to be thoughts/ideas, and > > not > > their alleged referents (which, in terms of direct experience, sometimes > > > > exist, but most often don't.) I believe that the firm of Sarah, Jon & > > Associates, Ltd (Does that have a good ring to it, Sarah? ;-)) > > systematically > > conflate the two, or, if not that, then, at least, when using the term > > 'concept', have the alleged referents in mind whereas we have the ideas > > in > > mind. > ..... > I’d rather suggest that the firm be called ‘pannatti’ as referred to in > the texts we are discussing --and clearly elaborated in the lists that > Goglerr and others have posted of all the various kinds of pannatti--and > encompassing as you point out, all ideas, including what you refer to as > ‘their alleged referents’, if these are not the paramattha dhammas > themselves. If I found Sarah, Jon & Asociates, Ltd (hmm, not sure about > the ring) were not sticking strictly to precise definitions in these > texts, especially those in the Abhidhamma where they are given in greatest > detail, I’d certainly like to have any differences pointed out. I > certainly have no interest in formulating any new theory and from my > understanding see no need. > ..... > >Thus, as I see it, there are two groups of people here, one group > > talking about A, the other talking about B, with A and B different, but > > we > > are all acting as though we mean the same thing. Such conversations can > > be > > amazingly coherent despite the fact that they shouldn't be at all! ;-)) > ..... > I think that if one group says A is right based on experience and > study of the Tipitaka and the other says the same about B, then it’s > helpful to look at the Tipitaka with the aid of ancient commentaries and > different Pali translations if necessary, to see if, with a little > teamwork, a happy resolution can be found.You’ve made mention once or > twice I think of the ‘orthodox Theravada position’. I certainly take the > orthodox position to include the Abhidhamma in the Tipitaka.(If the > commentaries and Abhidhamma are excluded from review and the Suttas are > interpreted in different ways which seem to accord with experience, then I > agree that it’s going to be a difficult discussion;-)) > > It may take a lifetime or few, or differences may remain, but considering, > checking and understanding a little more about the various mental states > and other ‘actualities’ (just borrowed from B.Bodhi for a change) in the > process can be very helpful. As Goglerr and I concluded, if differences or > ‘gaps’ remain, that’s fine too. > > Who knows, maybe Rob Ep will agree with S,J & Assocs this time;-)) > > Sarah > ===== I think I agree. Robert Ep. 14057 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:35am Subject: Re: Convention, Beliefs, and Pragmatics of Self Re: [dsg] Re: "ritual" [Rober... Next question: If there is no self, with which i agree, then what awakens? Answer: consciousness. But doesn't that make consciousness into something substantial? Robert Ep. =========== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 5/21/02 3:51:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Hi Howard. > > I understand your point, and I would simply ask: Is there a way to propose > > letting go of the last vestige of personal or substantial self, without > > falling > > into annihilationism? > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would say that there is. There is, in fact, no self at all right > now. Any discerning right now is a conditioned, samsaric discerning, and it > is no self. There is no self to be found, and, thus, no self to be > annihilated. There are just conditions and the knowing of conditions, with > that knowing being yet one more condition, and with the advent of nibbana, > there is just the absence of conditions, and there is no *separate* knowing > of that absence, for that would be a condition, and thus what there *would* > be is beyond all categories, beyond description. (Even to use the word 'be' > is to be in error. To say *anything* is to be in error. Only silence would be > without error. This whole post is in error!) > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > And to me that necessitates something still existing, even though it is > > neither > > self nor form. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > ============================= > With metta, > Howard 14058 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Iddhi Hi Sarah. Well I will certainly agree that the path is long, and not as easy as I had first hoped! And I agree that without discernment, practices that might seem to be spiritually beneficial will merely be expressions of ignorance. Best, Robert Ep. ============== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > I fully agree with you that the practice of samadhi/jhana pre-dates > Buddhism and is not unique to it. I certainly have no doubt about the > practices so prevalent in the texts. > > Without wishing to sound disrespectful in anyway, I do however question > whether TM levitation or any form of Astanga yoga taught today, for > example, have any element of jhana involved. > > As discussed, when referring to the psychic powers in the texts, these can > only be developed -- as Wynn pointed -- by those who had accomplished all > rupa and arupa jhanas plus additional preparations. We are talking about > what (for me) are incomprehensibly high levels of refined purity and > wholesome states. We are not just talking about very highly developed > concentration. > > If there is no clear understanding whilst doing yoga, TM , or any other > practice of the difference between kusala and akusala moments, I don’t > believe there can be any chance of even reaching base camp in the > development of samatha. > > So that’s why I made my original comment;-) > > Sarah > ===== > > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > > W:> > > How do you explain the levitation perform by the yogis of TM > > > > (Transcendental > > > > Meditation) > > S:> > I don’t try;-) Let me know what you think! > > > R:> Perhaps they have learned something akin to the jhanas. While the > Noble > > Eightfold > > Path and the discernment of anatta may be unique to Buddhism, the > > development of > > deep meditation states and psychic powers is not. > > > > Hindu practice of samadhi/jhana is about 10 - 15,000 years old, and very > > effective. There is no doubt that the yogins of old, as exemplified by > > Patanjali's yoga suttas, were masters of many of these states. The word > > jhana is > > the Pali for the Sanskrit dhyana, which is the core of the practice of > > the > > Ashtanga [eight-limbed] path of yoga, leading to ultimate Samadhi > > states. Dhyana, > > while important for Theravadan Buddhism in its Pali form as jhana, > > became the > > basis for the most important Mahayana sects as well: dhyana practice > > was > > transmitted from India to China by Bodhidharma, where they came to > > pronounce it > > 'Ch'an'. Ch'an Buddhism was brought from China to Japan, where the > > Japanese > > pronounced it....you guessed it: Zen. Jhana = Dhyana = Ch'an = Zen. > > Those sects > > which took their version of the name 'jhana or dhyana' as the name of > > their sect, > > emphasized sitting meditation and direct realization of nibbana/nirvana. > .......... 14059 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 11:15am Subject: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Hello RobEp - can I squeeze in here? :)) Dear Group, May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular path of practice. What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), Nyanaponika Thera says: (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the capacity of leading to effacement." Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are essential, not Samatha? My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent task in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of us, and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of controlling progress? I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to practice........ metta, Christine --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > Hi, it's me again. Thanks for the many replies sent over the past week or > > 2 to my earlier posts. I am slightly overwhelmed by the sheer number and > > size of them, ;-)), coming as they did all at once (there must have been 1 > > or 2 all-night sessions at around that time) but I can assure you I'll be > > getting round to replying, and soon I hope. > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Jon. > > > Well, I never saw this post and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your > > > kind > > > explanation of the emphases in Abhidhamma. As I have been giving the > > Abhidhamma a > > > rather hard time on paramatha dhammas lately, and probably causing some > > akusala > > > reactions to arise towards myself, I would like to say that I think your > > > explanation for the emphasis on dry insight makes a lot of sense. The > > belief that > > > there will be subsequent lifetimes when the dhamma will not be available > > > also helps to explain the current emphasis on dhamma study. > > > > I'm glad you found something in the post that helps put the abhidhamma in > > a better perspective. > > > > I'm not sure whether your remark about 'emphasis on dry insight' refers to > > me or to the abhidhamma, but I wouldn't necessarily agree in either > > context. To my mind the Abhidhamma simply explains what is and what can > > possibly be, and in what combinations, rather than indicating what should > > be. It explains that samatha and insight are distinct forms of kusala > > each having its own cause and means of development, and leading to > > different goals. Samatha properly developed leads to jhana, and insight > > properly developed leads to enlightenment. > > > > For one who attains enlightenment having first attained jhana, the > > enlightenment *may* (but not *will necessarily*) be based on the jhana, > > but even so the enlightenment is the culmination of the development of > > insight and not of the samatha. > > > > I do not read the texts as suggesting that a person who attains > > enlightenment having first attained samatha does so because of any > > conscious decision on the matter, any more than a person chooses to be > > born as a member of one sex or the other, yet you could say that in either > > case that outcome nevertheless depends wholly and solely on choices made > > by the person in his or her previous lives. > > > > Likewise in my own studies, I see no 'emphasis on dry insight', but simply > > an attempt to understand what is the essence of insight, as distinct from > > samatha. I believe that whatever one's inclinations to samatha, this > > knowledge is indispensible and is available to us only during the > > dispensation of a Buddha. > > > > Jon > > Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is not > necessary. To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree with you [!] > that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening factor. My sense of > the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization are a > factor in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that > are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality. But i would like to see > what the Visudhimagga says. So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come > up with. > > I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does > not lead to insight or enlightenment. So there must at the very least be a > balance. The jhanas, i would think, being very deep samadhic states which are > difficult to attain and require special types of concentration might be less prone > to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight. There must be some reason why so > many aspirants were practicing the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently > with his approval? > > Best, > Robert Ep. 14060 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipanna from the Scriptures Shin Nice to see you back. And thanks for the reminder that satipatthana can be developed only by understanding the actual teachings of the Buddha, not by any other understanding or 'practice'. I am impressed by the range of texts you mention below. Do you have them with you where you are now (Sarah tells me you have been away from Thailand for some time)? You are fortunate in being able to refer to the Thai texts, as some of these are not yet available in English. Looking forward to hearing more from you. Jon --- shiau_in_lin wrote: > Dearest Sarah, > I am coming in to share information from the Tipitaka, Attasalini, > Tika,Nekkiparana,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika,Abhidhammasangaha. > The Benefits of Developing Satipanna from Scriptures ... > > If we only contemplate just the visible object which appears, it will > detach the total idea of self or it will not completely eracidate the > idea of a concept in everything we see. > It requires full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and how it is > conditioned and the practice of it according to the scripture, then > we can understand the truth nature of Ariya Sacca Dhamma and its 3 > characters of Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta of all things. > > This is a very small portion of what I would like to share from the > scripture, which have explained completely and perfectly already by > the Buddha. > If there is anything which I have said or done, pls pardon me. > Thankyou. > Anumodana, > Shin 14061 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities. Hi, Rob - I have almost nothing to add to this post of yours. Just a brief comment or two in the midst. In a message dated 6/28/02 10:26:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear Howard, > This is a very nice post, and one of the clearest on paramatha dhammas to > my mind. > Allow to make a few comments back, interspersed below: > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 5/22/02 10:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > <> writes: > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > > Hi, Jon - > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/22/02 8:50:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > > > Howard > > > > > > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > â€| > > > > > > We are in basic agreement on this Robert, but, actually, I > > > > think > > > > > > that > > > > > > Abidhamma is as well. As I understand it, the Buddhist > perspective, > > > and > > > > > > most explicitly so in Abhidhamma, is a phenomenalist one which > > > doesn't > > > > > > countenance objects existing independently of experience. > > > > > > > > > > Here I have to enter a possible disagreement, but one that I hope > may > > > also > > > > > turn out to be more a matter of terminology than of substance ;-). > > > > > > > > > > > There is no hardness other than the experience of hardness, > > > > > > at least none that can be actually known. > > > > > > > > > > I see a difference between the 2 assertions in your preceding > > > statement, > > > > > namely that-- > > > > > (a) There is no hardness other than the hardness being experienced. > > > > > (b) There is no hardness that can be actually known other than the > > > > > hardness being experienced > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > Howard: > > > > There *is* a difference. Position (b) is the general > phenomenalist > > > > > > > one. Position (a) is the radical phenomenalist one which represents > an > > > > admixture of phenomenalism with pragmatism - what is in principle > > > unknowable > > > > is "as good as" nonexistent. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The statement at (b) is clearly so, in terms of the teachings (to > my > > > > > understanding). > > > > > > > > > > The statement at (a) needs to be qualified, I think. Hardness like > any > > > > > other reality arises because of conditions. In the case of the > > > hardness > > > > > that we take as being part of an inanimate object (like a table, > tree > > > or > > > > > building), those conditions do not include the fact of their being > the > > > > > object of someone's citta. In other words, the hardness does not > arise > > > > > dependent on there being someone there to experience it. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Howard: > > > > Ahh, but "the hardness that we take as being part of an > inanimate > > > > object (like a table, tree or building)" is concept-only. There being > no > > > > tables, trees, and buildings, there is no hardness possessed by them. > > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > I wonder if it's really correct to say that there are "no tables, trees > an > > > buildings'. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > From my perspective, it is conventionally false but ultimately > (and > > pragmatically) true. That's my perspective - perspective (a), but I'm not > > > suggesting it be anyone else's. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Well, just again to clarify this position, because it is extremely radical; > you > are saying that you believe that an actual object made of wood sitting on > four > legs probably does not actually exist. We put that together through the > concept > that unifies a number of different phenomenal properties experienced > through > feeling-door, seeing-door, etc., one moment at a time, such as hardness, > smoothness, 'woody smell', 'visual whorls', angle shape, pain [interpreted > as > bumping into table], etc.? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ---------------------------------------------- > > It is also possible to say less radically, but perhaps less > Buddhistically.....'I > do believe the concept is a sketch of something that probably *is* out > there, a > square object on legs that has plates and things actually on it. However, > a human > being cannot perceive this 'whole object' - all we get are aspects, one at > a time, > and put the picture together more or less accurately through experience. > And: at > any time when we do encounter the table, we always encounter it in relation > to our > current perception and intention, so it is never the same table, but is > variously > the table to set, the table to sit at, the table to eat at, the table to > lean on > while talking, etc. So there is not an 'is' table that is always the same, > but > there is some kind of physical object out there independent of us, > probably.' > > And that would also be a reasonable assertion from our experience of > sensual > details and unifying concepts. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: And yes. But not my position. --------------------------------------------- > > Phenomenology was actually my area of concentration for my BA in Philosophy > many > centuries ago in the last ice age, and my sense from studying Husserl, > Merleau-Ponty and a bit of Sartre [The Transcendence of the Ego] was that > they > were more inclined to the second position, which is a bit more > common-sensical. > But they veered towards your position at times as well. I think they > straddled > the line. > > I think that if the more radical formulation is taken as true, one has to > truly > look at this life as a dream in order to have that make any sense; in other > words, > one has to doubt the inherent solidity of physical reality, and work with > the idea > that this reality is basically a product of mind only, that there is no > physical > universe. It's a phantasm. Under that formulation, the creation of > conceptual > objects through acts of nama and rupa makes sense. A seeming physical > existence > with a seeming body having seeming sense-moments, all produced as a kind of > hallucination. A kind of juggling act which keeps the concept of table > alive > through producing rupas of hardness, etc. I am not sure if this is where > the > Abhidhamma leads or not, I think some here would object to this radical a > formulation. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Like a dream, yes. That's how I see it. However, and I think this is important, the mind-created world we "live in" is *not* completely arbitrary, but is based on actual relations of a variety of sorts holding among the paramattha dhammas, and, the paramattha dhammas that we encounter are based on our kamma. --------------------------------------------------- > > I kind of gravitate towards this. In a dream, things seem solid and whole, > but > they are just pliable and partial, subject to the mind's creative bent. > But each > thing created seems to take its logical place, even though it wasn't there > a > moment before. > > > Just as Buddha was unwilling to say bluntly that 'there is no self',> > > > I doubt he would assert the nonexistence of tables either. Rather, I > think > > > he > > > might say that the idea that we experience a 'table' when we experience > > > > 'hardness' > > > is a concept. And we can never know 'table' since the concept 'table' > is a > > > collection of experiences that each add up to only one or another > direct > > > quality. > > > None of these ever adds up to 'table' in actual experience, only as a > > > deductive > > > conclusion. Experientially speaking, and in the service of knowing the > > > > reality of > > > the present moment, 'table' does not exist except as a concept. But > this > > > does not > > > mean that 'table' as some sort of cosmic reality outside of experience > > > either does > > > or doesn't exist. It just means what Jon said when he cited version > (b) > > > and said > > > that version (a) that no other object existed except for the one > > > experienced was > > > much more radical, perhaps more radical than necessary. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Conventionally there are tables, and there is a keyboard that I am > > > typing on, and a chair I am sitting on. What is more, I am perceiving all > > > these things "out there". That's conventional truth, and it enables me to > > > function quite nicely in this world, this intersubjective realm of > > experience, which is MIND MADE. But when I look carefully - very > carefully, I > > actually only experience what the Abhidhammikas call paramattha dhammas, > and > > these are all "in here", not "out there" - and, of course, impermanent, > > unsatisfactory, impersonal, and insubstantial. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Yup, I believe you're saying that the physical universe is inherently > insubstantial and holographic in nature. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > I agree > that perceptions are really 'in here' rather than 'out there' although > there's no > 'inside' to a mental projection. It's just 'of mind', neither inner nor > outer, > since there are really no objects to be inside or outside of. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on the holography business. That is not necessarily part of my take. ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > So is there a table somewhere out in the world beyond the senses of > humans? > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I don't think so. I'm actually not even sure what that would mean. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > It would mean that there is a real physical object sitting there, and we > have real > bodies over here. And the senses bridge the gap, but imperfectly. In > other > words, a Kantian universe, rather than a Merleau-Pontian one. > > Anything that is not metaphysical in nature winds up being inherently > empirical in > nature. It is very difficult to say 'there is a physical world' and then > not be > totally constrained by the laws of physics that it portends. > > > Not> > > > as far as we experience directly. Still, our deductive reasoning by > which > > > we > > > 'conceptualize' table and deal with the 'table' that we coordinate > between > > > our > > > momentary experiences and concepts works pretty well to allow us to > eat, > > > drink and > > > be merry, or whatever else we do on the 'table'. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > No disagreement. The patterns of relations among actually > experienced > > conditions are such that our minds are able to create this world of > apparent > > things, and navigate within it. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > So it may be that there *is* something resembling a 'table', but that > we > > > just > > > can't experience it directly all at once, and thus shouldn't confuse > > > concept with > > > reality. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Well, the only thing I know for sure about that is that there is, > in > > principle, no way of knowing such a thing "out there" which is > responsible > > for our experience of table, for all we ever experience is the very > content > > of experience, itself. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > What happens if we neither confirm nor deny the existence of 'table' as > an > > > object > > > out there, but really strive to distinguish between what we actually > > > experience > > > and what we *think* [conceptualize] that we experience? > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > What happens if we neither confirm nor deny the existence of a > self? I > > think that is Victor's position. But the pragmatist position is that > whatever > > is not known, and is in principle unknowable is effectively nonexistent. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > I think it makes for much> > > > more clear and skillful action, and more importantly, allows us to > begin to > > > discern the actuality of the mind and senses which leads us towards the > > > > necessary > > > sati and panna needed for awakening. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Okay. Whatever an individual finds helpful is that person's > business. > > I don't want to even begin to attempt to foist my position on you or > anyone. > > It makes sense to me. That's all. Could I be all wrong? Sure!! > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > And in the meantime I think it's also skillful to be mindful of how we > use > > > concepts in order to 'navigate' in samsara. It's not as if the need to > use > > > a fork > > > goes away because one develops a bit of discernment. So how do we use > > > concepts in > > > the moment to coordinate the idea of 'fork' with the getting of the > food to > > > the > > > mouth? Pretty interesting. > > > > > > Perhaps an arahant can navigate eating a meal using only the immediate > > > sensations > > > of > > > > hardness/coolness/roughness/sourness/under-the-tongueness/swallowing/etc., > > > without forming a concept of 'food' or 'fork', which would explain the > > > Buddhist > > > meditation on food in which it takes five minutes to take and swallow > one > > > bite. > > > > > > Anyway, I wonder what you think about this? Distinguishing between > concept > > > and > > > nama/rupa is important, but concepts also seem necessary. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > The world we live in is a world of concepts, and concepts are > needed > > to function in it. I expect this is even so for a Buddha. I just don't > think > > a Buddha (or arahant) is taken in by those concepts. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Yup, that makes sense. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14062 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:43am Subject: Re: Convention, Beliefs, and Pragmatics of Self Re: [dsg] Re: "ritual" [Rober... Hi, Rob - In a message dated 6/28/02 10:36:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Next question: > If there is no self, with which i agree, then what awakens? > > Answer: consciousness. But doesn't that make consciousness into something > substantial? > > Robert Ep. > ============================= Nothing awakens. There is just the event of awakening, which means the destruction of the taints. It is a ceasing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14063 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 0:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of > yours by > a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara > Nikaya > which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of > concentration, > and 3) formal meditation. > The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as > *including* > formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). > The three refererences are the following: > 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] > 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] > 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] > These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, > An > Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & > Bhikkhu > Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. > > With metta, > Howard Thanks for the homework, Howard (!) Actually, I look forward to reading these suttas over the weekend. I am pleased to know (if I read you correctly) that it is not something within the Satipatthana Sutta itself that leads you to the understanding in question (although I of course would agree that a sutta should always be read in the context of other suttas and the Tipitika as a whole, and never in isolation). Jon 14064 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thoughts triggered by Squirrels Chris --- christine_forsyth wrote: > This ramble isn't Larry's fault ....... let's blame it on the > Squirrel! > > Dear Jon, Sarah, Sukin, (not sure if you were all there, but you are > the Usual Suspects) Yes, I was there, and remember the incident (and the breakfast -- string hoppers with curry sauce). I think you have summed it up pretty well. > I wonder if any or you will remember the incident I am thinking > of ..... It was at breakfast time, in Sri Lanka, at the Hotel where > we had to walk a long way through the gardens to our rooms, past the > restaurant with a roof and no walls, past the swimming pool and the > lagoon with the night frogs, and I was upstairs from S & J ....... > well, while we were having breakfast a squirrel ran across the > rafters of the open air restaurant (I never knew squirrels lived > anywhere else but North America and Walt Disney movies until I saw > one in Bangkok with Mike and Amara - and this one in Sri Lanka....). > I think some in the larger group had gone to feed fish, and between > talking of about people feeding the squirrel and the fish (and > monkeys and kangaroos) I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that > concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was > kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of > feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the > correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then > akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the > sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? Or was I > just thinking all of that, and now I can't tell real memories from > actual memories :):) ? > > Ive read this through and it doesn't seem very coherent, but I've had > a long day and don't think my editing will help it any...... > > metta, > Chris Just a brief comment, that came to mind recently in relation to another interesting thread of yours (suicide) but which I didn't have time to join in on. These situations (suicide, feeding animals etc) are really just concepts. This means that it's generally not possible to say anything categoric about them, because one person's understading or experience will not match another's. I think this is particularly helpful to keep in mind when reading about events in the time of the Buddha. It is temptiong to project our own mores and social values, forgetting that these have no relevance to the quality of the citta of the person involved. Getting back to feeding animals, and bearing in mind that the 'quality' of the deed depends on the quality of the accompanying mental state, all we can say about that, I think, is that it will definitely be mixed, and probably predominantly akusala. The other thing we could say is that this would also be the case if we refrained from feeding the animals ;-)). Jon 14065 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/29/02 12:52:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > > I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of > > yours by > > a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara > > Nikaya > > which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of > > concentration, > > and 3) formal meditation. > > The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as > > *including* > > formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). > > The three refererences are the following: > > 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] > > 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] > > 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] > > These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, > > An > > Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & > > Bhikkhu > > Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Thanks for the homework, Howard (!) > > Actually, I look forward to reading these suttas over the weekend. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I apologize for having given the material to you just by reference, and not quoting it. The light on my scanner needs replacing. Otherwise, I would have quoted the material for you. ------------------------------------------------------ > > I am pleased to know (if I read you correctly) that it is not something > within the Satipatthana Sutta itself that leads you to the understanding > in question (although I of course would agree that a sutta should always > be read in the context of other suttas and the Tipitika as a whole, and > never in isolation). -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is primarily the taking of this sutta as part of the whole body of scripture that permits the interpretration of both formal and informal meditation as being included, though the very first section on mindfulness of breath does, indeed, suggest standard sitting meditation. Other parts of the section on mindfulness of the body are more noncommittal, suggesting to me both formal and informal walking and standing meditation, but definitely not being explicit. Sometimes the distinction between formal and informal blurs anyway. For example, when walking, one may, as a result of purposeful intent, note that one is about to turn, and that one does then turn. This can be "informal". It does provide a level of understanding. On the other hand, in a "formal" session of walking meditation, in which one is repeatedly and slowly walking back and forth along a 20-30 pace path, constantly and carefully noting with focus the foot placements and changes, the associated sensations, the intentions to turn, the turning, and the wandering of one's attention, concentration and mindfulness tend to become quite heightened, one's "state" changes, one's attention becomes quite microscopic, and clarity is enhanced. Inasmuch as the formal practice of, especially sitting and walking, meditation has been a part of the tradition in all schools for a couple thousand years, and inasmuch as all schools revere the satipatthana sutta and anapanasat sutta and relate their practice to them, I find it reasonable to infer that these suttas do not exclude formal meditation practice. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14066 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:30pm Subject: Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation --- Dear Chris., These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive of the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello RobEp - can I squeeze in here? :)) > > Dear Group, > > May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > path of practice. > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > > Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > Nyanaponika Thera says: > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > capacity of leading to effacement." > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > essential, not Samatha? > 14067 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Shin, Nice to see you here. Being a very lazy person when it comes to studying, I really appreciate it when anyone posts some information from the Tipitaka so that I get to read it a little at a time at a pace my accumulations allow. Hope you remain here to benefit me and others like me( are there others??), quoting texts we would otherwise never read. One comment you made when I first came to know Abhidhamma, which made a big difference to my outlook, was when you made reference to your 3 yrs. of being absorbed in the study of the Visudhimagga. You realized that it was mana which made you think that you could develop understanding by studying on your own. This comment "clicked" and made me appreciate the importance of kalayanmitta even more. It showed me another face of mana. It is not that one as a result then comes to blindly believe a teacher or wise friend, in anycase one still has to use one's own understanding to interpret anything. What happens in this case is, one gets to view an interpretation different from what one's accumulated panna or lack of it would naturally be inclined toward. We usually end up taking the path of least resistence, and this is more often than not, wrong. The interpretations we make will be conditioned mainly by our accumulated views, so I think we have to be very careful. Whatever we do accumulates as sankhara khandha. If I study to accumulate, that is what I will develop a habit to, if I study to 'understand' that will be my tendency. If I think I will have to study all the details before I can come to understand "reality", then I am developing a habit of postponing the study of the present moment. Panna has to start little at a time, we cannot expect to have any deep understanding of realities if we have never taken the first step. Theory can condition more avijja, as in handling the snake by the tail, if one thinks that "the more the theory the better it is" we will get bitten. Theory can be condition for panna, but only when conditions are there. Is there any use in trying to understand paticcasamupada for instance, if one does not have any understanding about the difference between moments of kamma and moments of vippaka? I think in studying too much theory, one is carried away by the logic of it. One might see the gradual progress in understanding of more complex concepts as a progress along the path. This I think is dangerous. What we take with us when we die, is not the words in the Tipitaka, nor pali, but the panna or avijja we have accumulated. Next life we may be born in Rome or someplace, we will never remember any of the texts we have studied, but if we have understanding, we can get in touch with Buddhism again even if our parents are staunch Catholics:-). I hope you take this as a friendly exchange of views and do not mind my stressing certain points. Hope to see more of you around. metta, Sukin. -----Original Message----- From: shiau_in_lin Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 2:15 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Sarah, > I'm not sure that I fully agree, however, with your comment above > about `with constant thinking......'. This may just be a language > issue, but surely awareness (sati) rather than thinking will lead > to more insight? We can use anything word or call it whatever but the process of the citta has accumulated the contemplating of the realities or about the realities. At that moment, it is already the accumulation of panna and sati. There is definitely no attachment of the sensual objects, only letting go of ignorance. Everything is accumulated, even if you memorized the whole Tipitaka, it will be a Upanissa-paccaya in the future. And when it is conditioned, it will arise. Remember Javana citta and all the Paccaya. We are not looking at only now. There is still a future Khanda or Ayatana. I will not be able to come in as often as I can. BUT if there is anything which is nice, I will try my best to quote it from the Tipitaka and other commentaries for the reference of others. Sarah ! In most Sutta,the Lord Buddha constantly mentioned the Bhukkhuis to remember and contemplate his teaching. I believe in him. If it is not beneficiary, why would he say it !...Doesn't that make you wonder ? Any way it is up to your own faith. From my recent experiences, it has helped me in understanding the realities in my daily life because it is like a road map for me to reference on. OK ! I guess I am talking more than I should. Take care. Kalayamitta, Shin 14068 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shinto Dear Howard How are you? You wrote: "Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying stripes, even different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in views and practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family fights".)" I do not think we have to imagine it. We can observe all along the peace and harmony between followers of different Buddhist traditions. Have you ever heard of Buddhist countries going to war due to different views? You could witness how Theravada Buddhist countries in South East Asia have close ties with Mahayana Buddhist countries in East Asia, for example. Within Theravada Buddhist countries, there are also Mahayana Buddhist communities. I had live in such a Theravada Buddhist country, and I have never heard of any conflict between the citizens due to different Buddhist backgrounds. Myanmar is famous for its pure Theravada tradition, yet Tibetans also live as indigenous people in Northern Mountainous regions of Myanmar and follow their own tradition of Buddhism mixed with their unique ethnic elements. And why not? The so-called "fights" Howard mentioned are only myths and seem to be manufactured by Buddhist scholars in the Religious Departments who take pride in the so-called "Critical Studies". Whatever polemic they engaged are usually agaist Theravada Buddhism in general, and Pali Commentaries and Abhidhamma in particular. For example, Mrs Rhys Davids and her modern followers, neo-Rhys-Davidsites with PhDs. Why I was doing Pali at the ANU in Canberra during early 80s, a PhD (Buddhist Studies) student asked me what Buddhism I followed. When I answered "Theravada", he told me I was selfish. I didn't know how I could be selffish as Theravada advocates no self, as would Mahayana. SMILE. So I did not argue and kept the Noble Silence. There you have it, Howard. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 6/27/02 8:08:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > robert writes: > > > > Dear Group, > > Today I went with some of my students to a Shinto temple and we > > talked to one of the priests. The temple is rather serene and you > > feel quite peaceful in the grounds. The priest was humble and calm > > and told us about the age (circa 500A.D), and some of the rituals. > > What was interesting was that the people who go to the shrine, when > > they die, the funeral will be conducted by a Buddhist priest. He > > explained that Buddhism and Shinto have different philosophies and > > practices but that they are very friendly. > > It's one of the things I like about living in Japan, 127 million > > people on a relatively small piece of land but they try to harmonize > > and humility is seen as a high virtue. I learn a lot living here. > > robert > > > =========================== > This is lovely. Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying > stripes, even different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in > views and practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it > is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family fights".) > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14069 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shinto Hi, Suan - You make good and important points. I have no doubt that, on average, there is more amiability among Buddhists of all schools than is to be found elsewhere. My post grew out of experiences on another Buddhist list, and it expresses a bit of dismay that cordiality and tolerance, as good as they are among Buddhists, aren't even better. The DSG, due largely to the wonderful stewardship of Sarah and Jon, is a marvelous refuge of harmony and tolerance. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/29/02 11:29:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Suan writes: > > Dear Howard > > How are you? > > You wrote: > > "Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying stripes, even > different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in views and > practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it > is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family > fights".)" > > I do not think we have to imagine it. We can observe all along the > peace and harmony between followers of different Buddhist traditions. > Have you ever heard of Buddhist countries going to war due to > different views? > > You could witness how Theravada Buddhist countries in South East Asia > have close ties with Mahayana Buddhist countries in East Asia, for > example. Within Theravada Buddhist countries, there are also Mahayana > Buddhist communities. I had live in such a Theravada Buddhist > country, and I have never heard of any conflict between the citizens > due to different Buddhist backgrounds. > > Myanmar is famous for its pure Theravada tradition, yet Tibetans also > live as indigenous people in Northern Mountainous regions of Myanmar > and follow their own tradition of Buddhism mixed with their unique > ethnic elements. And why not? > > The so-called "fights" Howard mentioned are only myths and seem to be > manufactured by Buddhist scholars in the Religious Departments who > take pride in the so-called "Critical Studies". Whatever polemic they > engaged are usually agaist Theravada Buddhism in general, and Pali > Commentaries and Abhidhamma in particular. For example, Mrs Rhys > Davids and her modern followers, neo-Rhys-Davidsites with PhDs. > > Why I was doing Pali at the ANU in Canberra during early 80s, a PhD > (Buddhist Studies) student asked me what Buddhism I followed. When I > answered "Theravada", he told me I was selfish. I didn't know how I > could be selffish as Theravada advocates no self, as would Mahayana. > SMILE. So I did not argue and kept the Noble Silence. > > There you have it, Howard. > > With kind regards, > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14070 From: goglerr Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:06am Subject: Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Dear Group, Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular path of practice. What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? _____________________________________________ G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned in The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one–way path for the purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' (monk) is mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of the Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of course, they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. We have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative wisdom will develop) is the priority. Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the contemplation/observation of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind-objects. In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully aware, and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' the sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in-control or non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. Rather, the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, we will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will snow-ball to right liberation. Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, may it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that comfortable for many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking or even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when walking, a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand `I am sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying down'; or he understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha also mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing between sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, he was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. There are some people who say something like these `just be aware of our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his arms, who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, and tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that easy though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than not the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental cultivation. Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake and waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental hindrances will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development difficult. A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, the pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us to avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had trodden. `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed One...and said to him: "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, that is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path."' (SN 45:3) And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide us on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher – and I humbly say, this is compulsary. So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for Nibbana. _______________________________________________________ Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), Nyanaponika Thera says: (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the capacity of leading to effacement." Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are essential, not Samatha? _________________________________________________ G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and the latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe any paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some `tranquilizers'. But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' object, from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. ________________________________________________________ Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent task in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of us, and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of controlling progress? ______________________________________________ G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means those who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, jealousy, pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The Buddha also said `I only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and the end of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of urgency, way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, understading etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get it'. __________________________________________________ I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to practice........ metta, Christine ________________________________________________ That's all for now, Chris----byee Goglerr 14071 From: sumane758 Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 3:46am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Visit Dear Jon, Sukin & all, I feel bad that I take time to respond. This is because of so much commitment to my job – providing solace to my countrymen in dire straits (by virtue of my job in a bank), the time constraints entailing the effort (which involves extensive travel to remote areas without e-mail), the use of office PC-server-mail box for dhamma communications etc. I am impressed & inspired with your kind words on my contributions at the Colombo Meeting & to the List. Whatever, I don't deserve so much praise for what I have done since I could have done more for you nice people here, I should have but I didn't. I was all-eager to meet the Group & discuss, especially K Sujin. Sarah would bear evidence to my enthusiasm thereon and with so early notice given, I think I should have done more. Little things like visiting the Hotel & looking into arrangements before your arrival, especially when Nihal was conversant with the venue & the facilities it offered. This may be because of a feeling of alien-ness towards you all, generated with a feeling of humbleness/inferiority originating from the lesser knowledge of dhamma; may be, may not be but the greatest thing is that I now know, if it was so, then it all is unfounded. That's after meeting you all. K Sujin is special. I had read of her on the web, a little of her dedication to understand & make understand the Buddha teachings. I wouldn't have been that hesitant had it been to see Khun Sujin. There isn't any barrier to utter what I felt like (of dhamma) with her reverence. Whatever I uttered was because she was there & of course Jon made it so simple, so pertinent & that it mattered so much. I am indebted to Jon for making my utterance the priority then at the Meeting & Sarah that I should meet Khun Sujin, before by e-mail. You have displayed that you are compassionate tolerant people. That, you made the first thing known. Even with that, I think that I was late! Regards! Sumane Rathnasuriya 14072 From: sumane758 Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 5:05am Subject: Re: photos --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I had some photos of SL put on a CD.... Christine, You may by now already gone to the photo shop with your CD. If not, are you sure the photos on CD are not "Read only"? If that is the case, (if they are Read only), try change that status & upload to Yahoo. I may be taking coal to New Castle but for whomever in List to benefit, let me briefly note the process. To change "Read only" status of a file :- 1. Right click the Icon of the file 2. Click "Properties" on the drop-down 3. On the General tab Clear the "Read Only" check box To Change more than one file in a Dialog Box:- Select/highlight the required files i.e. Edit Menu > "Select All" to select all files Shift Key > Left Click 1st & last icons to select a series Ctrl Key > Left Click desired icons to select files at random & follow 1. to 3. above. Re: Large images, if this is due to High resolution of the picture (Camera settings/Bitmap Image format) you could try: 1. Open the pic 2. Image Menu > Click "Resize" 3. Select a lower resolution in the Dialog box (Proportionate to the existing measurements-or the picture will be out of proportionate) 4. Click "OK" 5. If the Pic is out-of-shape, then DO NOT SAVE 6. File Menu > Click "Save As" 7. In "Save As Type" select JPG/JPEG etc. 8. Save You may even try 1., 6., 7. & 8. If the foregoing doesn't work, you'll need to visit the photo shop. But if you are thru with the "Read only" issue you can still upload to Yahoo by selecting "Medium" or "Small" button before pressing "Upload" Good Luck! Metta Sumane 14073 From: TG Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. In a message dated 6/28/2002 3:19:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <> writes: > As you wish, Howard. : ) > > but it still remains a problem that everything that exists is contained > within the > five kandhas, including namas; and that nibbana is a nama that is > unconditioned by > Hi Robert Ep. I've never heard anyone call or claim that Nibbana was a "nama" before. I was wondering where you got that idea? Also, to my knowledge the Budda never made a statement that "everything that exists is contained within the 5 khandas." The 5 khandas to my knowledge is the description of human "parts". Thanks for considering the above points. TG 14074 From: Howard Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/29/02 6:29:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TG writes: > > As you wish, Howard. : ) > > > > but it still remains a problem that everything that exists is contained > > within the > > five kandhas, including namas; and that nibbana is a nama that is > > unconditioned by > > > > Hi Robert Ep. > > I've never heard anyone call or claim that Nibbana was a "nama" before. I > was wondering where you got that idea? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is found in Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------------------ > > Also, to my knowledge the Budda never made a statement that "everything > that > exists is contained within the 5 khandas." The 5 khandas to my knowledge > is > the description of human "parts". > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is the following: ***************************** Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.23 Sabba Sutta The All Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." ****************************** > > Thanks for considering the above points. > > TG > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14075 From: TG Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. In a message dated 6/29/2002 3:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Howard writes: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.23 > > > > Sabba Sutta > > > > The All > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, > "What > is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & > flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is > called > the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe > another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his > statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to > grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." > Would it be correct to say that "The All" is the same thing as the 5 Khandas? I think that the 5 khandas deal with "the all" but I think they are described in different situations for particular reasons. Is Nibbana part of "the all?" It seems it could not be. TG 14076 From: Howard Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/29/02 7:57:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TG writes: > > In a message dated 6/29/2002 3:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Howard writes: > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.23 > > > > > > > > Sabba Sutta > > > > > > > > The All > > > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > > speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, > > "What > > is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & > > > flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is > > called > > the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe > > > another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his > > statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to > > grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." > > > > Would it be correct to say that "The All" is the same thing as the 5 > Khandas? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think so. Generally, the 5 khandhas and the 12 pairs of senses and sense domains seem to be two alternate schemes for the same phenomena. ---------------------------------------------------- > > I think that the 5 khandas deal with "the all" but I think they are > described > in different situations for particular reasons. > > Is Nibbana part of "the all?" It seems it could not be. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say not. The "all" seems to be consist of presences, of existences, of positive conditions (empty though they are), whereas nibbana is exactly the absence of all conditions. Yet to say that it is "nothing" misses the mark, I believe, because it is described as "perfect peace", as "the island", as "the refuge", as "the cool cave". I suspect that we have no idea how abrasive and dukkha is the experience of conditions, and that the experience of absence of conditions, of nibbana, is simply magnificent - a cool wind in the parching desert sun. Nibbana is the absence of all conditions, but also lies *beyond* the limitation of any conditions. It seems to me that it is the actuality of no conditions but the potentiality of all conditions, and, being described in noetic terms such as those I quoted above makes it more akin to a knowing, a nama, than to a dead nothingness. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > TG > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14077 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Dear Robert, Goglerr, and All, Robert, while looking up the meaning of the word sukkhavipassaka, I came across this definition, which speaks of 'complete control of the mind with true knowledge' by the samathayanika, and calls it the superior way. http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/vipassana.html Do you think this definition can be quite right? It does seem a little at odds with 'no control', as well as what you have both been saying, about it being in some ways a matter of emphasis...... though I think the adjectives in your list of the requisites for samatha sound difficult - careful sila, profound wisdom and renunciation. 'careful' I could manage - 'profound' might eventuate one day..... As Goggy says ------>"We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe any paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some `tranquilizers' I really appreciate the time you took to reply and will reflect some more on your post. But I'm not sure about the 'tranquilizers' - after my experience with metta, I'm worried I'd like samatha too much....... but, perhaps that could be guarded against? Your mention of 'right effort' was timely - I still tend to want to 'do' something to 'make' things happen, and once again I need to remind myself that Right Effort doesn't involve struggle at all. When I see things as they are, I can work with them, gently and without any kind of force whatsoever. Right Mindfulness - being mindful of the way I talk, the way I perform my job, my posture, my attitude toward my friends, colleagues and family. --------->Gog:"And it is true, we need or seek a good spiritual friend (s) to guide us on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher - and I humbly say, this is compulsory." --------->Chris: I agree, and have found people I regard as such on this List. I do look enviously, however, at my Christian friends, as they go to Church, have other face to face Discussion groups and even organised social contacts with people of their faith - all of this in one week..... But, this discussion has given me some ideas on how I may be able to feel more supported in a face to face manner. My first teacher Patrick spoke of actually practising Samatha-Vipasanna (one word) meditation. My understanding at the time was so limited that I thought I saw only Samatha. Perhaps a re-look at what that group or similar groups is doing may be beneficial. metta, Christine --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Chris., > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive of > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > robert --- "goglerr" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > path of practice. > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > _____________________________________________ > G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned > in > The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one–way path for > the > purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of > the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 > foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' > (monk) is > mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of the > Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when > developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the > one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of > course, > they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. We > have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of > dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative > wisdom will develop) is the priority. > > Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the contemplation/observation > of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, > feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind-objects. > > In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha > continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully > aware, > and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the > world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not > lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' > the > sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in-control or > non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. Rather, > the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this > arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, we > will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will > snow-ball to right liberation. > > Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here > a > bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an empty > hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, > and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes > in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation > monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, may > it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. > Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is > what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that > comfortable for > many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. > Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking or > even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when > walking, > a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he > understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand > `I am > sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying > down'; or he > understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha also > mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good > stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) > strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing between > sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) > builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the > Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, > he > was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha > intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking > meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. > > There are some people who say something like these `just be aware > of > our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or > whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily > life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, > bhikkhus, > a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and > returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking > away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his arms, > who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his > outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), > who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, and > tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; > who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, falling > asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that > easy > though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than not > the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. > > A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech > and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as > the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for > social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental cultivation. > Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, > where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake and > waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental hindrances > will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development > difficult. > > A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. > The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, the > pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us to > avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had > trodden. > `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed > One...and said to him: > "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good > friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." > "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, > that > is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a > bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to > expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold > Path."' (SN 45:3) > And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide us > on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, > the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to > rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher – and I humbly say, this > is > compulsary. > > So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are > compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But > mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for > Nibbana. > _______________________________________________________ > Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > Nyanaponika Thera says: > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > capacity of leading to effacement." > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > essential, not Samatha? > _________________________________________________ > G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 > wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama and > Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and the > latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not > enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. > We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > any > paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > `tranquilizers'. > But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After > attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' > object, > from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 > Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and > Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. > ________________________________________________________ > Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - > but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the > defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent task > in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this > eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I > have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of us, > and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that > doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of > this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of > controlling progress? > ______________________________________________ > G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means > those > who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by > the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, jealousy, > pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The > Buddha also said `I > only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we > should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and > the end > of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so > many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of urgency, > way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, understading > etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or > whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get > it'. > __________________________________________________ > I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on > such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is > what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to practice........ > > metta, > Christine > ________________________________________________ > That's all for now, Chris----byee > > Goglerr 14078 From: shiau_in_lin Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 5:21pm Subject: Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Jonathon, Actually I have been coming and going out of Switzerland for almost more than 9 months already. Each time that I am here, I tried to carry all the scriptures so I can have a set here in Switzerland for reference when I need them. Yes, I am very fortunate to be able to read Thai so I could reference alot from other commentaries which is like an intepretor to scriptures for example the Tika,Attasalni,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika and The GUIDE ( in Thai). Actually I have switched from reading the English Tipitaka to the Thai since last year. I found great detail of information which has been explained for in one verse or sentence in the Thai one comparing with the English one. I have gained alot from reading and referencing the commentaries, in which, most of my questions were answered in the scriptures. It is like a road map in my mind and then I contemplate it daily in my life. BUT there are still limitations in the Thai translation. If I have the opportunity, I am going to study Pali so I can understand the Attha or meaning directly from Pali without any language obstacles. Dear Sukin, Thankyou for being a friend. The past which I've said is only said with extreme limitations of informations about the teaching of the Buddha. Pls kindly eliminate or forgive me for what I have suggested to you in the past. Recently I have realized that it is not mana, if I am trying to understand or contemplating the Vissudhimagga. BECAUSE :- reading or trying to understand the Teaching of the Buddha is a subject of purification of the mind. And at the moment of trying, is viriya with kusula citta. If only we can really understand what is kusula and akusula then we can understand the characteristic of all dhamma and its functions. And we can't go wrong about akusula or kusula because it is said clearly in the scriptures with all the phenonema. All Akusula is leading Khanda to samsara. All Kusula is detaching or lessening the Khanda from samsara, whether it is with panna or not. I can't really explain much to you, because it really requires oneself to read the Scriptures and understand it themself. I never will regret what I have done this time, in just totally be dependent on the teaching of the Buddha, by just simply reading the scripture carefully and following it. Depending on someone else's understanding is just dangerous and not direct. In actuality, the Dhamma belongs to the Buddha so I will just follow the Buddha by reading the scriptures, instead of some else's explanation. As I have mentioned again, the scriptures has all the answers to your questions or doubts and commentaries explained everything. There is no easy way. The most precious thing requires effort and determination and sammadhitti. Kalayamitta, Shin 14079 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 6:07pm Subject: Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation . Dear Chris., The defn. says: "There are two orders of arhats, the sukkhavipassaka and the samathayanika. The sukkhavipassaka is so called because he attains enlightenment by contemplating the dry facts of physical and moral phenomena until his passions dry up. The samathayanika, on the other hand, by complete control of his mind with true knowledge, is superior." This is a little oversimplified. The samathayanika is very definitely considered superior to the sukkhavipassaka- they may have powers, mastery of jhana etc. etc. What the netti says though is that only the ones with superior faculties are able to follow this path. What I meant by emphasis is that even the sukkhavipassaka has some of the attributes of one who develops samatha, in that tranquility of mind comes about through contemplation of nama and rupa too. And renunciation is needed for vipassana and so on. best wishes robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, Goglerr, and All, > > Robert, while looking up the meaning of the word sukkhavipassaka, I > came across this definition, which speaks of 'complete control of the > mind with true knowledge' by the samathayanika, and calls it the > superior way. > http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/vipassana.html > Do you think this definition can be quite right? It does seem a > little at odds with 'no control', as well as what you have both been > saying, about it being in some ways a matter of emphasis...... though > I think the adjectives in your list of the requisites for samatha > sound difficult - careful sila, profound wisdom and > renunciation. 'careful' I could manage - 'profound' might eventuate > one day..... > > As Goggy says ------>"We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right > liberation. Samatha > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > any paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > `tranquilizers' I really appreciate the time you took to reply and > will reflect some more on your post. But I'm not sure about > the 'tranquilizers' - after my experience with metta, I'm worried I'd > like samatha too much....... but, perhaps that could be guarded > against? > > Your mention of 'right effort' was timely - I still tend to want > to 'do' something to 'make' things happen, and once again I need to > remind myself that Right Effort doesn't involve struggle at all. > When I see things as they are, I can work with them, gently and > without any kind of force whatsoever. Right Mindfulness - being > mindful of the way I talk, the way I perform my job, my posture, my > attitude toward my friends, colleagues and family. > > --------->Gog:"And it is true, we need or seek a good spiritual friend > (s) to guide us on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for > Nibbana. At times the books may not help us that much. As in > meditation, we need to rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher - and > I humbly say, this is compulsory." > --------->Chris: I agree, and have found people I regard as such on > this List. I do look enviously, however, at my Christian friends, > as they go to Church, have other face to face Discussion groups and > even organised social contacts with people of their faith - all of > this in one week..... But, this discussion has given > me some ideas on how I may be able to feel more supported in a face > to face manner. My first teacher Patrick spoke of actually > practising Samatha-Vipasanna (one word) meditation. My understanding > at the time was so limited that I thought I saw only Samatha. Perhaps > a re-look at what that group or similar groups is doing may be > beneficial. > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear Chris., > > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive > of > > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > > robert > > --- "goglerr" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under > several > > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I > often > > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > > path of practice. > > > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > > _____________________________________________ > > G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned > > in > > The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one–way path for > > the > > purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > > for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement > of > > the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 > > foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' > > (monk) is > > mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of > the > > Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when > > developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the > > one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of > > course, > > they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. > We > > have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of > > dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative > > wisdom will develop) is the priority. > > > > Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the > contemplation/observation > > of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, > > feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind- objects. > > > > In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha > > continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully > > aware, > > and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the > > world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not > > lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' > > the > > sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in- control > or > > non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. > Rather, > > the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this > > arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, > we > > will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will > > snow-ball to right liberation. > > > > Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here > > a > > bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an > empty > > hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body > erect, > > and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes > > in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation > > monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, > may > > it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. > > Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is > > what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that > > comfortable for > > many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. > > Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking > or > > even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when > > walking, > > a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he > > understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand > > `I am > > sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying > > down'; or he > > understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha > also > > mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good > > stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) > > strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing > between > > sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) > > builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the > > Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, > > he > > was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha > > intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking > > meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. > > > > There are some people who say something like these `just be aware > > of > > our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or > > whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily > > life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, > > bhikkhus, > > a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and > > returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking > > away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his > arms, > > who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his > > outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), > > who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, > and > > tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; > > who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, > falling > > asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that > > easy > > though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than > not > > the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. > > > > A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech > > and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as > > the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for > > social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental > cultivation. > > Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, > > where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake > and > > waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental > hindrances > > will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development > > difficult. > > > > A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. > > The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, > the > > pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us > to > > avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had > > trodden. > > `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed > > One...and said to him: > > "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good > > friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." > > "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, > > that > > is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a > > bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to > > expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold > > Path."' (SN 45:3) > > And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide > us > > on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, > > the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to > > rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher – and I humbly say, > this > > is > > compulsary. > > > > So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are > > compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But > > mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for > > Nibbana. > > _______________________________________________________ > > Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > > Nyanaponika Thera says: > > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. > It > > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > > capacity of leading to effacement." > > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > > essential, not Samatha? > > _________________________________________________ > > G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 > > wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama > and > > Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and > the > > latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not > > enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. > > We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha > > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative > to > > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > > any > > paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > > `tranquilizers'. > > But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After > > attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' > > object, > > from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 > > Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and > > Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. > > ________________________________________________________ > > Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - > > but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the > > defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent > task > > in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this > > eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I > > have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of > us, > > and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that > > doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of > > this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of > > controlling progress? > > ______________________________________________ > > G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means > > those > > who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by > > the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, > jealousy, > > pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The > > Buddha also said `I > > only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we > > should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and > > the end > > of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so > > many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of > urgency, > > way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, > understading > > etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or > > whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get > > it'. > > __________________________________________________ > > I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on > > such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is > > what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to > practice........ > > > > metta, > > Christine > > ________________________________________________ > > That's all for now, Chris----byee > > > > Goglerr 14080 From: manji Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 8:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Sukkhavipasska? How does the word break down? Also, what is this word that is being translated into "control", and what is its etymology? -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:06 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation > > Dear Robert, Goglerr, and All, > > Robert, while looking up the meaning of the word sukkhavipassaka, I > came across this definition, which speaks of 'complete control of the > mind with true knowledge' by the samathayanika, and calls it the > superior way. > http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/vipassana.html > Do you think this definition can be quite right? It does seem a > little at odds with 'no control', as well as what you have both been > saying, about it being in some ways a matter of emphasis...... though > I think the adjectives in your list of the requisites for samatha > sound difficult - careful sila, profound wisdom and > renunciation. 'careful' I could manage - 'profound' might eventuate > one day..... > > As Goggy says ------>"We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right > liberation. Samatha > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > any paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > `tranquilizers' I really appreciate the time you took to reply and > will reflect some more on your post. But I'm not sure about > the 'tranquilizers' - after my experience with metta, I'm worried I'd > like samatha too much....... but, perhaps that could be guarded > against? > > Your mention of 'right effort' was timely - I still tend to want > to 'do' something to 'make' things happen, and once again I need to > remind myself that Right Effort doesn't involve struggle at all. > When I see things as they are, I can work with them, gently and > without any kind of force whatsoever. Right Mindfulness - being > mindful of the way I talk, the way I perform my job, my posture, my > attitude toward my friends, colleagues and family. > > --------->Gog:"And it is true, we need or seek a good spiritual friend > (s) to guide us on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for > Nibbana. At times the books may not help us that much. As in > meditation, we need to rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher - and > I humbly say, this is compulsory." > --------->Chris: I agree, and have found people I regard as such on > this List. I do look enviously, however, at my Christian friends, > as they go to Church, have other face to face Discussion groups and > even organised social contacts with people of their faith - all of > this in one week..... But, this discussion has given > me some ideas on how I may be able to feel more supported in a face > to face manner. My first teacher Patrick spoke of actually > practising Samatha-Vipasanna (one word) meditation. My understanding > at the time was so limited that I thought I saw only Samatha. Perhaps > a re-look at what that group or similar groups is doing may be > beneficial. > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear Chris., > > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive > of > > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > > robert > > --- "goglerr" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under > several > > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I > often > > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > > path of practice. > > > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > > _____________________________________________ > > G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned > > in > > The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one-way path for > > the > > purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > > for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement > of > > the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 > > foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' > > (monk) is > > mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of > the > > Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when > > developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the > > one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of > > course, > > they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. > We > > have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of > > dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative > > wisdom will develop) is the priority. > > > > Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the > contemplation/observation > > of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, > > feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind-objects. > > > > In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha > > continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully > > aware, > > and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the > > world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not > > lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' > > the > > sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in-control > or > > non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. > Rather, > > the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this > > arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, > we > > will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will > > snow-ball to right liberation. > > > > Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here > > a > > bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an > empty > > hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body > erect, > > and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes > > in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation > > monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, > may > > it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. > > Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is > > what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that > > comfortable for > > many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. > > Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking > or > > even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when > > walking, > > a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he > > understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand > > `I am > > sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying > > down'; or he > > understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha > also > > mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good > > stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) > > strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing > between > > sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) > > builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the > > Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, > > he > > was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha > > intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking > > meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. > > > > There are some people who say something like these `just be aware > > of > > our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or > > whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily > > life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, > > bhikkhus, > > a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and > > returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking > > away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his > arms, > > who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his > > outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), > > who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, > and > > tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; > > who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, > falling > > asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that > > easy > > though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than > not > > the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. > > > > A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech > > and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as > > the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for > > social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental > cultivation. > > Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, > > where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake > and > > waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental > hindrances > > will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development > > difficult. > > > > A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. > > The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, > the > > pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us > to > > avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had > > trodden. > > `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed > > One...and said to him: > > "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good > > friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." > > "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, > > that > > is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a > > bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to > > expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold > > Path."' (SN 45:3) > > And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide > us > > on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, > > the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to > > rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher - and I humbly say, > this > > is > > compulsary. > > > > So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are > > compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But > > mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for > > Nibbana. > > _______________________________________________________ > > Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > > Nyanaponika Thera says: > > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. > It > > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > > capacity of leading to effacement." > > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > > essential, not Samatha? > > _________________________________________________ > > G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 > > wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama > and > > Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and > the > > latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not > > enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. > > We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha > > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative > to > > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > > any > > paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > > `tranquilizers'. > > But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After > > attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' > > object, > > from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 > > Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and > > Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. > > ________________________________________________________ > > Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - > > but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the > > defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent > task > > in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this > > eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I > > have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of > us, > > and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that > > doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of > > this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of > > controlling progress? > > ______________________________________________ > > G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means > > those > > who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by > > the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, > jealousy, > > pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The > > Buddha also said `I > > only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we > > should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and > > the end > > of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so > > many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of > urgency, > > way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, > understading > > etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or > > whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get > > it'. > > __________________________________________________ > > I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on > > such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is > > what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to > practice........ > > > > metta, > > Christine > > ________________________________________________ > > That's all for now, Chris----byee > > > > Goglerr 14081 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 9:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation --- Dear manji, Sukkha has a few meanings. The most common of which is happiness. In this case though it means dry; and sukkhavipassaka is 'dry-insight worker' because his insight is without the soft moisture of the mundane jhanas. The word control is probably being used by the writer because those who have mastery of jhana have so many powers - they can walk on water, read minds, go to the deva worlds: it is control in the conventional sense. robert "manji" wrote: > Sukkhavipasska? How does the word break down? Also, what is this word > that is being translated into "control", and what is its etymology? > > -manji- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth > > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:06 AM > > Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation > > > > Dear Robert, Goglerr, and All, > > > > Robert, while looking up the meaning of the word sukkhavipassaka, I > > came across this definition, which speaks of 'complete control of the > > mind with true knowledge' by the samathayanika, and calls it the > > superior way. > > http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/vipassana.html > > Do you think this definition can be quite right? It does seem a > > little at odds with 'no control', as well as what you have both been > > saying, about it being in some ways a matter of emphasis...... though > > I think the adjectives in your list of the requisites for samatha > > sound difficult - careful sila, profound wisdom and > > renunciation. 'careful' I could manage - 'profound' might eventuate > > one day..... > 14082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Howard, Goglerr, Chistine and all, Howard, I am butting in again (I hope you will often do the same, and everybody, butting in is good.) Thank you for the three suttas, and I looked up my Thai co. I like to say something about them, but if possible could you paste them, or someone else?.I seldom go on line, problems with father, his sick dog (the vet today), father fallling out of bed sometimes at night. etc. Besides, my translation work. Now about formal meditation. I have no experience with this. I read in the Co , in Pali now, after the eating of congee (yagu, hmm), about monks who walked, who took the kammathana and brought it back ((harati, paccaaharati). When there was a distraction they would stand still, to restrain defilements while standing, or another one would turn back and go again, and do this for nineteen years, until he attained arahatship. I asked A. Sujin why he acted like this, and A. Sujin answered, because it was his accumulation. I also read about bhikkhus counting while breathing in and out, and when I asked why they acted like this, A. Sujin answered, because it was their accumulation. They could not have become arahats if they had not developed all the stages of insight knowledge, beginning with discerning the difference between nama and rupa. Thus, the question is: what does panna know, is there any understanding of this moment now? At this time there are no longer arahats in this world according to the Commentaries. Should we copy those highly gifted monks who were destined for arahatship? How is life in a center, does nobody talk? In some centers it is forbidden to read and study. Are you dressed in white, do you take meals together? Are there also people you do not sympathize with? You speak about focussing attention on the feet and then turning around noticing the wandering mind, but, I think, distraction is bound to happen all the time, does it not? Then, is distraction not a reality to be understood as only a conditioned nama? Instead of focussing on it, there could be more understanding of it, or is this what you mean? And what is *understood* while walking, which rupas appear? Hardness, or heat or oscillation? Or the bodyconsciousness that experiences them? Or the trying to concentrate, is there desire to concentrate? Lobha is very natural, we have accumulated it and it will always find an object, even while meditating. What feelings appear, bodily feeling or mental feeling? Is there no tiredness, and aversion about it? I believe we should always check for ourselves: how is understanding now, not only at the center, but now in daily life. Is there somewhat more understanding, is it growing? Is there no sound while walking? Is sound over there different from sound over here? Is seeing over there different from seeing here? I believe that panna should be stressed, not mere concentration. Also when developing meditation subjects such as the kasinas. See A. Sujin's chapter in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas on Samatha, panna should be very precise and refined. As regards the brahma viharas, Dan explained the near enemies so well, they should be discerned. The brahmaviharas should be developed in daily life when there are people around. When we are alone it is easy to have noble thoughts, but what when people are unpleasant? Your ill-mannered or lazy students? The Bodhisatta would jump at such occasions: how can patience be developed if there are no unpleasant people? Otherwise, there is no way to train. So many meditation subjects can be developed now, such as the Recollection of the Triple Gem, metta, karuna. I agree that awareness of nama and rupa alone is not sufficient. We are weak, and need all the medicines of the perfections. These include all good qualities that should be developed along with panna. I understand Christine: she is looking for means to disarm defilements. Only panna can do it, not we. Even the temporary subduing of them in Samatha cannot be achieved without panna. But how difficult to know very precisely when the citta is kusala and when there is a subtle desire for a result, we have to think of the near enemies. Let me quote now part of A. Sujin's chapter on renunciation from her book about the Perfections: The lack of sati in daily life and the amount of defilements they notice may induce people to go to centers, I believe. When we have accumulated sati of satipatthana, although not much, it can support sati of other levels of kusala. We may become more sensitive to occasions where patience, karuna, respect to the Triple Gem can be developed and this in daily life. Is a center needed for this? But anyway, everybody will follow his accumulated inclinations. We know the value of patience, but often we may not realize: here is only an insignificant matter where we could develop patience, a good opportunity to cultivate it. When we do something in the kitchen, or any chore there are opportunities. How otherwise will we be patient enough for the endlessly long practice of the eightfold Path, cira kala bhavana. With appreciation, Nina. op 29-06-2002 13:45 schreef Howard op Howard: > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is primarily the taking of this sutta as part of the whole body of > scripture that permits the interpretration of both formal and informal > meditation as being included, though the very first section on mindfulness of > breath does, indeed, suggest standard sitting meditation. Other parts of the > section on mindfulness of the body are more noncommittal, suggesting to me > both formal and informal walking and standing meditation, but definitely not > being explicit. Sometimes the distinction between formal and informal blurs > anyway. For example, when walking, one may, as a result of purposeful intent, > note that one is about to turn, and that one does then turn. This can be > "informal". It does provide a level of understanding. On the other hand, in a > "formal" session of walking meditation, in which one is repeatedly and > slowly walking back and forth along a 20-30 pace path, constantly and > carefully noting with focus the foot placements and changes, the associated > sensations, the intentions to turn, the turning, and the wandering of one's > attention, concentration and mindfulness tend to become quite heightened, > one's "state" changes, one's attention becomes quite microscopic, and clarity > is enhanced. Inasmuch as the formal practice of, especially sitting and > walking, meditation has been a part of the tradition in all schools for a > couple thousand years, and inasmuch as all schools revere the satipatthana > sutta and anapanasat sutta and relate their practice to them, I find it > reasonable to infer that these suttas do not exclude formal meditation > practice. 14083 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shinto Dear Howard Me again. You wrote: "The DSG, due largely to the wonderful stewardship of Sarah and Jon, is a marvelous refuge of harmony and tolerance." I totally agree with what you wrote above. Sarah and Jon are skilful Captains of DSG who could lead with gentleness and wisdom. I also believe that you and Robert Kirkpatrick, too, have learnt from Sarah and Jon how to manage a large discussion group with diverse views and manners, and are succeffully able to have brought the group to a working harmonious order. With kind regards, Suan --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Suan - > > You make good and important points. I have no doubt that, on average, > there is more amiability among Buddhists of all schools than is to be found > elsewhere. My post grew out of experiences on another Buddhist list, and it > expresses a bit of dismay that cordiality and tolerance, as good as they are > among Buddhists, aren't even better. The DSG, due largely to the wonderful > stewardship of Sarah and Jon, is a marvelous refuge of harmony and tolerance. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 6/29/02 11:29:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Dear Howard > > > > How are you? > > > > You wrote: > > > > "Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying stripes, even > > different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in views and > > practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it > > is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family > > fights".)" > > > > I do not think we have to imagine it. We can observe all along the > > peace and harmony between followers of different Buddhist traditions. > > Have you ever heard of Buddhist countries going to war due to > > different views? > > > > You could witness how Theravada Buddhist countries in South East Asia > > have close ties with Mahayana Buddhist countries in East Asia, for > > example. Within Theravada Buddhist countries, there are also Mahayana > > Buddhist communities. I had live in such a Theravada Buddhist > > country, and I have never heard of any conflict between the citizens > > due to different Buddhist backgrounds. > > > > Myanmar is famous for its pure Theravada tradition, yet Tibetans also > > live as indigenous people in Northern Mountainous regions of Myanmar > > and follow their own tradition of Buddhism mixed with their unique > > ethnic elements. And why not? > > > > The so-called "fights" Howard mentioned are only myths and seem to be > > manufactured by Buddhist scholars in the Religious Departments who > > take pride in the so-called "Critical Studies". Whatever polemic they > > engaged are usually agaist Theravada Buddhism in general, and Pali > > Commentaries and Abhidhamma in particular. For example, Mrs Rhys > > Davids and her modern followers, neo-Rhys-Davidsites with PhDs. > > > > Why I was doing Pali at the ANU in Canberra during early 80s, a PhD > > (Buddhist Studies) student asked me what Buddhism I followed. When I > > answered "Theravada", he told me I was selfish. I didn't know how I > > could be selffish as Theravada advocates no self, as would Mahayana. > > SMILE. So I did not argue and kept the Noble Silence. > > > > There you have it, Howard. > > > > With kind regards, > > > > Suan > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ 14084 From: Howard Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Nina - Thank you for your reply. It is a quite lengthy one, and I am not sure exactly what really calls for response. I'll make an attempt. With regard to the three suttas, I think they are fairly clear and stand on their own without much need for comment. I would love to paste and post, but I only have access to them from the book that I mentioned, and my scanner is not working. Perhaps someone else can help. As far as what is experienced during formal meditation is concerned, well, this is a bit like trying to describe ice cream to those who may have tried milk but no dessert. ;-) It really needs to be directly experienced. As far as accumulations are concerned, well, it seems to me that we can make all sorts of guesses and assumptions about what might or might not be our "accumulations", but, in fact, we don't know. I do know that again and again the Buddha instructed his followers to find "roots of trees" etc and to meditate. I can attest first hand as to the difference in intensity there is of concentration, mindfulness, and ease of detailed, direct investigation between formal meditation (if pursued with regularity) and a practice of moment-to-moment mindfulness during ordinary activity. I strongly recommend both. With regard to meditation centers, attending an occasional retreat has value in that it constitutes an intensive and devoted period of formal meditation practice, shared with like minded folks, and in the context of strong support, with all necessities including meals provided, with all concerns other than the practice removed. With regard to this, you ask: ****************************************** How is life in a center, does nobody talk? In some centers it is forbidden to read and study. Are you dressed in white, do you take meals together? Are there also people you do not sympathize with? ******************************************* At the Goenka retreat I attended - 1) Except for the need to talk occasionally with teachers or administrators, and except for brief evening lectures, the retreat was conducted in silence, with the participants not interacting by word, glance, or gesture, 2) During the 10-day retreat, there was no reading or study, as the point was to devote the 10 days to intensive, direct practice, building what I can only describe as enormous meditative power, 3) We dressed as we wished, but modestly of course, 4) Nutritious vegetarian meals were taken together, in silence, and except for some fruit etc for "new" students, there was no eating past mid-day, 5) Accomodations were clean and adequate, with "low and non-luxurious beds", 6) The sexes were separated, 7) Shower facilities were private, and 8) There was insufficient interaction with others to develop sympathies or lack thereof. One more point about retreats: They are helpful from time to time, but they are *not* the cornerstone of a practice. The cornerstone is a daily, regular practice of one's own. Meditation is always available. The breath, sensations, feelings, thoughts, inclinations - all there, always available for investigation, both during "ordinary" moments, and, more clearly and powerfully, during formal practice. The joy of the Dhamma is enlivened by the sustenance obtained from regular, formal practice. The study and the practice support each other. Each is impovershed by the absence of the other. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/30/02 10:22:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Dear Howard, Goglerr, Chistine and all, > > Howard, I am butting in again (I hope you will often do the same, and > everybody, butting in is good.) > Thank you for the three suttas, and I looked up my Thai co. I like to say > something about them, but if possible could you paste them, or someone > else?.I seldom go on line, problems with father, his sick dog (the vet > today), father fallling out of bed sometimes at night. etc. Besides, my > translation work. > Now about formal meditation. I have no experience with this. I read in the > Co , in Pali now, after the eating of congee (yagu, hmm), about monks who > walked, who took the kammathana and brought it back ((harati, > paccaaharati). > When there was a distraction they would stand still, to restrain > defilements > while standing, or another one would turn back and go again, and do this > for > nineteen years, until he attained arahatship. I asked A. Sujin why he acted > like this, and A. Sujin answered, because it was his accumulation. I also > read about bhikkhus counting while breathing in and out, and when I asked > why they acted like this, A. Sujin answered, because it was their > accumulation. They could not have become arahats if they had not developed > all the stages of insight knowledge, beginning with discerning the > difference between nama and rupa. Thus, the question is: what does panna > know, is there any understanding of this moment now? At this time there are > no longer arahats in this world according to the Commentaries. Should we > copy those highly gifted monks who were destined for arahatship? > How is life in a center, does nobody talk? In some centers it is forbidden > to read and study. Are you dressed in white, do you take meals together? > Are > there also people you do not sympathize with? > You speak about focussing attention on the feet and then turning around > noticing the wandering mind, but, I think, distraction is bound to happen > all the time, does it not? Then, is distraction not a reality to be > understood as only a conditioned nama? Instead of focussing on it, there > could be more understanding of it, or is this what you mean? And what is > *understood* while walking, which rupas appear? Hardness, or heat or > oscillation? Or the bodyconsciousness that experiences them? Or the trying > to concentrate, is there desire to concentrate? Lobha is very natural, we > have accumulated it and it will always find an object, even while > meditating. What feelings appear, bodily feeling or mental feeling? Is > there > no tiredness, and aversion about it? I believe we should always check for > ourselves: how is understanding now, not only at the center, but now in > daily life. Is there somewhat more understanding, is it growing? Is there > no > sound while walking? Is sound over there different from sound over here? Is > seeing over there different from seeing here? > I believe that panna should be stressed, not mere concentration. Also when > developing meditation subjects such as the kasinas. See A. Sujin's chapter > in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas on Samatha, panna should be very precise > and > refined. As regards the brahma viharas, Dan explained the near enemies so > well, they should be discerned. The brahmaviharas should be developed in > daily life when there are people around. When we are alone it is easy to > have noble thoughts, but what when people are unpleasant? Your ill-mannered > or lazy students? The Bodhisatta would jump at such occasions: how can > patience be developed if there are no unpleasant people? Otherwise, there > is > no way to train. > So many meditation subjects can be developed now, such as the Recollection > of the Triple Gem, metta, karuna. > I agree that awareness of nama and rupa alone is not sufficient. We are > weak, and need all the medicines of the perfections. These include all good > qualities that should be developed along with panna. I understand > Christine: > she is looking for means to disarm defilements. Only panna can do it, not > we. Even the temporary subduing of them in Samatha cannot be achieved > without panna. But how difficult to know very precisely when the citta is > kusala and when there is a subtle desire for a result, we have to think of > the near enemies. Let me quote now part of A. Sujin's chapter on > renunciation from her book about the Perfections: > > only develop paññå but also the perfections. Each of the perfections is an > important and helpful condition for the realization of the four noble > Truths. Some people may wonder why it is necessary to develop each day the > perfections together with satipatthåna. The reason is that satipatthåna > does > not arise all the time. > Someone may understand the development of the eightfold Path. He may know > that sati should be aware of the characteristics of realities that are > appearing, and that paññå gradually considers, notices and understands the > characteristics of the dhammas that are non-self, as nåma, the reality > which > experiences, or rúpa, the reality which does not experience. Satipatthåna > cannot arise all the time, but still, the fact that one has developed it, > listened to the Dhamma and has accumulated understanding of the way of > developing satipatthåna, all these factors are conditions for the arising > of > a level of sati other than sati of satipatthåna. This means: sati of the > level of all the excellent qualities which are the perfections. > Therefore, each perfection must have sati which is very refined. This kind > of sati is conditioned by one¹s habitual development of satipatthåna. > Satipatthåna cannot arise all the time, it does not arise when there are no > conditions for its arising, when akusala citta arises. However, the fact > that the development of satipatthåna has been accumulated can be a > condition > for the arising of sati of another level which can be mindful. Satipttìhåna > does not arise often in our daily life, but we should consider from now on > whether kusala of other levels also arises seldom. If these levels do not > often arise either we should develop satipatthåna together with all the > perfections, and this for an endlessly long time. We shall know that > satipatthåna gradually will grow, as well as the perfections which are > accompanied by sati which is very refined although it is not sati of the > level of satipatthåna. > In order to realize the four noble Truths the perfections should be > developed, not only generosity and morality, but also renunciation, the > giving up of clinging to the sense objects. One also needs to have the > perfections of energy and patience, one should have endurance and be > unshakable with regard to the sense objects, be they desirable or > undesirable.> > > The lack of sati in daily life and the amount of defilements they notice > may > induce people to go to centers, I believe. When we have accumulated sati > of > satipatthana, although not much, it can support sati of other levels of > kusala. We may become more sensitive to occasions where patience, karuna, > respect to the Triple Gem can be developed and this in daily life. Is a > center needed for this? But anyway, everybody will follow his accumulated > inclinations. We know the value of patience, but often we may not realize: > here is only an insignificant matter where we could develop patience, a > good > opportunity to cultivate it. When we do something in the kitchen, or any > chore there are opportunities. How otherwise will we be patient enough for > the endlessly long practice of the eightfold Path, cira kala bhavana. > With appreciation, > Nina. > > op 29-06-2002 13:45 schreef Howard op Howard: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > It is primarily the taking of this sutta as part of the whole body of > > scripture that permits the interpretration of both formal and informal > > meditation as being included, though the very first section on > mindfulness of > > breath does, indeed, suggest standard sitting meditation. Other parts of > the > > section on mindfulness of the body are more noncommittal, suggesting to > me > > both formal and informal walking and standing meditation, but definitely > not > > being explicit. Sometimes the distinction between formal and informal > blurs > > anyway. For example, when walking, one may, as a result of purposeful > intent, > > note that one is about to turn, and that one does then turn. This can be > > "informal". It does provide a level of understanding. On the other hand, > in a > > "formal" session of walking meditation, in which one is repeatedly and > > slowly walking back and forth along a 20-30 pace path, constantly and > > carefully noting with focus the foot placements and changes, the > associated > > sensations, the intentions to turn, the turning, and the wandering of > one's > > attention, concentration and mindfulness tend to become quite heightened, > > one's "state" changes, one's attention becomes quite microscopic, and > clarity > > is enhanced. Inasmuch as the formal practice of, especially sitting and > > walking, meditation has been a part of the tradition in all schools for a > > couple thousand years, and inasmuch as all schools revere the > satipatthana > > sutta and anapanasat sutta and relate their practice to them, I find it > > reasonable to infer that these suttas do not exclude formal meditation > > practice. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14085 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 11:08am Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over/Victor Hi, Christine, Thank you for replying. I think you might be interested in this book http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/index.html Regards, Victor --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Thank you for your reply and your reference to The Nava Sutta. I had > read part of this Sutta before and looked for it again, but not under > the title of The Ship. > I like the chicken story, having kept chickens. It reminds me of > many 'Poultry Characters' I have known, usually Bantams, who would > become 'clucky', steal eggs from all the other hens, and generally be > bad tempered, peck anybody collecting eggs, and upset the whole > flock. Putting the hen in a quiet secluded place, maybe in a box > with a hessian bag as the door, on a nest of straw with her own eggs, > usually solved the civil disruption problem. Baby chickens only > develop properly if the hens' behaviour is constant, consistent and > concentrated, with the right conditions. :) > The story of the Adze about the wearing down of the handle by regular > daily use suggests that you can't or (shouldn't?) try to measure the > small increments of progress and understanding - just diligently keep > at it and youll 'just know' when a breakthrough occurs.... > And, The Ship story (though first appearing to me to be about > neglect) seems to say that using "Whatever comes' as practice, > remaining devoted to development, is a way towards eradicating > defilements. > > But, what a list of things to understand and develop .... > The Four Frames of Reference > The four right exertions > the four bases of power > the five faculties > the five strengths > the seven factors of awakening > the Noble Eightfold Path > > :):) I'm disappointed Victor - no sutta references? I do hope > they're all in one or two suttas or I'll be up all night trying to > find, read and understand......:) > > metta, > Christine > --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > I don't know if you have come across this discourse or if it has > been > > discussed before. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: > > > Dear Sarah and All, > > > > > > I accept that as Jon said a day or so ago "it is the awareness > and > > > understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication > of > > > akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by > > that > > > awareness and understanding." > > > > > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, > considering > > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop > > which > > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > > > But what happens in the long period before that is > accomplished? > > I > > > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > > > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that developing mindfulness is not enough. It is necessary > > but not sufficient for eradicating defilements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions > > are > > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged > by > > a > > > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for > > another. > > > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am > > now > > > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. It's > > as > > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to > dam > > up > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In order to eradicate defilements, there are other qualities to be > > developed than mindfulness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > > > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I > have > > to > > > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this > > part > > > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations > and > > > conditions..... > > > As Nina's recent post on dosa said: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13670 > > > "Even if we reason, the thoughts of annoyance keep coming back. > > > Conditions. It > > > seems we make progress, then we fall back. We are not non- > > returners, > > > and thus > > > the latent tendency lies dormant in the citta. It will condition > > > akusala > > > citta with dosa, and dosa always finds an object. If it is not > the > > > other > > > person, it is the wind or the rain, or a broken glass.". > > > > > > I seem to be less alarmed now at the thought of beginningless > > time > > > and the length of Samsara. I find myself thinking a lot > > > lately "That's just the way it is..." Sometimes the fact that I > > don't > > > seem to make progress causes me to feel a little > > discouraged ..... > > > like a cat looking at the moon and knowing it is out of reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another way to see it is the simile in the discourse: > > effluents/fermentations/asava is liken to the adze handle. > > > > > > > > > > > > But > > > the only choices are to persevere, or give up. I remember > reading > > > on the plane to Singapore in the Perfection of Determination. "We > > may > > > find that the development of right understanding hardly seems to > > make > > > any progress but we should remember that the Buddha and his > > > enlightened disciples had for innumerable lives maintained an > > > unshakable resolution to reach the goal." So it is O.K. if > progress > > > is very slow, it's natural. > > > > > > Best wishes with the practice. > > > > > > Regards, > > Victor 14086 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 0:44pm Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over/Victor Hi Victor, I think you could be right! :) The Seven Sets looks to be exactly what I was after. Thank you. metta, Christine --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi, Christine, > > Thank you for replying. I think you might be interested in this book > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/index.html > > Regards, > Victor > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Victor, > > > > Thank you for your reply and your reference to The Nava Sutta. I > had > > read part of this Sutta before and looked for it again, but not > under > > the title of The Ship. > > I like the chicken story, having kept chickens. It reminds me of > > many 'Poultry Characters' I have known, usually Bantams, who would > > become 'clucky', steal eggs from all the other hens, and generally > be > > bad tempered, peck anybody collecting eggs, and upset the whole > > flock. Putting the hen in a quiet secluded place, maybe in a box > > with a hessian bag as the door, on a nest of straw with her own > eggs, > > usually solved the civil disruption problem. Baby chickens only > > develop properly if the hens' behaviour is constant, consistent and > > concentrated, with the right conditions. :) > > The story of the Adze about the wearing down of the handle by > regular > > daily use suggests that you can't or (shouldn't?) try to measure > the > > small increments of progress and understanding - just diligently > keep > > at it and youll 'just know' when a breakthrough occurs.... > > And, The Ship story (though first appearing to me to be about > > neglect) seems to say that using "Whatever comes' as practice, > > remaining devoted to development, is a way towards eradicating > > defilements. > > > > But, what a list of things to understand and develop .... > > The Four Frames of Reference > > The four right exertions > > the four bases of power > > the five faculties > > the five strengths > > the seven factors of awakening > > the Noble Eightfold Path > > > > :):) I'm disappointed Victor - no sutta references? I do hope > > they're all in one or two suttas or I'll be up all night trying to > > find, read and understand......:) > > > > metta, > > Christine > > --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > > > Hi Christine, > > > > > > I don't know if you have come across this discourse or if it has > > been > > > discussed before. > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html > > > > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > > wrote: 14087 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 3:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Goggy --- goglerr wrote: > Hi Jon, it's been a while since we communicate 'face-to-face'. I glad > to her from u. Hope that everything is fine over there. Yes, thanks. Good to be talking to you again. > Jon: I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of > thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance > of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need > to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of > understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by > the texts. > > G: Not only the awareness has to be penetrative and sharp on the fast > changing realities, but also has to be light > (kayalahuta/cittalahuta), malleable (kayamuduta/cittamuduta), wieldy > (kaya/cittakammannata) and proficient (kaya/cittapagunnata). Yes, these are the cetasikas (mental factors) that arise with the kusala citta, so it is in fact the citta (i.e., not the awareness) that is light, malleable and proficient. These indeed are the characteristics that distinguish kusala citta from akusala citta. > Other words, the awareness has to be swift to be concurrent the fast > arising objects of nama and rupa. The object of nama or rupa are very > momenterial. They change very fast and rapid. Their promeniency are > changing too. Let say, an oject from the touch door. If we are > mindful of it, we can observe that they are changing. But not all the > time the touch point is prominent , it changes too, then the > awereness has to go to another nama rupa object with has become more > prominent, so that the awareness has to be continuous and concurrent > with an object of nama or rupa. Within the mind too, the awareness > has to be sharp, penetrative and agile, so that it can be concurrent > with different cittas that are arising and passing away. I think you are saying that because the citta and its object changes very rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This perhaps forms the basis of the attraction to the 'slowing down' approach.) As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the changing object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different realities, each to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, this does not mean awareness of all realities all the time, nor does it mean awareness of but a single moment of a dhamma (these would be things that only the likes of a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does it mean necessarily awareness of different dhammas successively. If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it doesn't matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other moments of awareness. > Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. > Goglerr As I've said above, we are not trying to 'catch' an individual moments of citta or its object, so the speed of change is not a problem. Jon > p.s: I have faith in 'slowing down'! PS Can dhammas be 'slowed down'? 14088 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of > yours by > a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara > Nikaya > which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of > concentration, > and 3) formal meditation. > The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as > *including* > formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). > The three refererences are the following: > 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] > 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] > 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] > These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, > An > Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & > Bhikkhu > Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. > > With metta, > Howard I've had a look at these suttas. Very interesting and well worth discussing. However, I don't think any of them says that awareness necessarily includes formal meditation practice or samatha/jhana attainments. Nor of course do they contradict the passage I cited from the opening of the Satipatthana Sutta that says in fairly specific terms that awareness properly developed and maintained, leads to the final goal, including the eradication of all defilements, or Jon > > > Howard: > > > Here is where sila and samadhi enter in, from my perspective. > An > > > ongoing practice of observing the precepts with mindfulness and > clear > > > comprehension, including a consistent guarding of the senses, will, > by > > > itself, condition the development of a layer of calm in the mind, > giving > > a > > > modicum of relative peace. With this as background, formal sitting > and > > > walking meditation practice, essential from my perspective, can > deepen > > and > > > strengthen that layer of calm, leading even to jhanic states which > > provide a > > > true but temporary haven and also condition the mind, making it more > fit > > for > > > the cultivation of liberating pa~n~na. Throughout all this, ongoing > > > mindfulness should play the leadership role. > > 14089 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Lisa A rather belated response to your interesting post (to add to your collection!). --- lisa14850 wrote: > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > Lisa Let me congratulate you on not taking the akusala for kusala. Being straight with oneself about the true nature of one's [akusala] mental states is a praiseworthy thing, I believe, and requires courage. It is one of the aspects of the perfections (e.g., truth, determination), and we are told that without it progress on the path is difficult. (What is perhaps even more difficult is to accept those tendencies for what they are, without wishing them to be otherwise!) Coming to your question, 'What would compassion do?', I wonder if knowing the answer will help. By this I mean, knowing how to 'act compassionately' doesn't actually mean we would have any more kusala another time. I think most of us have the idea, whether we would admit to it or not, that if only we knew what was the kusala thing to do, we would be able to have more kusala. But if we think about it for a moment, it's clear that this is not so -- doing the 'compassionate thing' is one thing, a wholesome mental state is another. Actually, I would say there is no answer to your question. Compassion per se doesn't 'do' anything. Yes, it is wholesome and has a specific function and a manifestation, but a person who has well developed compassion will still act in the way their (unique) inherent inclinations lead them to. The fact of their having more kusala and less akusala doesn't really change how the person acts by nature, in terms of whether they respond, say, actively or passively, in a 'practical' manner or just with advice, etc. On the other hand, if compassion does arise, the 'action' is definitely compassionate, even if conventionally speaking the person does nothing. So there is no single 'right' or 'compassionate' response. Lisa with highly developed compassion will still respond in a Lisa way. And a person with highly developed compassion doesn't have to consciously think how to act compassionately! What can be said for certain, however, is that in the example you give there would be less getting carried away with sadness, less ache in the chest. Perhaps the other point to bear in mind here is that compassion is not the only kusala mental state that may arise in these situations. It may be a case where it is impossible for compassion to arise for the particular individual; but upekkha may be possible. We have no control over this and, the fact is, it matters not. To repeat something I touched on the beginning (and which some would no doubt disagree with me on), even if there is no kusala (and a lot of akusala), it also matters not. Much more important is to see whatever appears for what it is. It's good to recognise the true nature of one's mental state, and ruing one's lack of kusala is just more akusala! Jon 14090 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 7:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Shin, You said: Thankyou for being a friend. The past which I've said is only said with extreme limitations of informations about the teaching of the Buddha. Pls kindly eliminate or forgive me for what I have suggested to you in the past. Sukin: Thanks to you too! No need to apologize for anything and nothing can, nor need to be eliminated. Your statement *did* have a positive effect. It may be that there were some kusala cittas alternating with akusala ones and it may not be possible to identify all of them, but isn't it good to know the dangerous ones?;) Shin: Recently I have realized that it is not mana, if I am trying to understand or contemplating the Vissudhimagga. BECAUSE :- reading or trying to understand the Teaching of the Buddha is a subject of purification of the mind. And at the moment of trying, is viriya with kusula citta. If only we can really understand what is kusula and akusula then we can understand the characteristic of all dhamma and its functions. Sukin: Yes so many different moments alternating. The intention to read with the aim to have more understanding and not to accumulate mere words is surely kusala. But when we read on and come upon difficult points and struggle to find out the meaning, isn't this possibly akusala? And if we carry this kind of understanding further, we might come to the conclusion that 'reading the Tipitaka is kusala' and 'reading anything else is akusala'!? But as you say further, we need to understand the difference between kusala and akusala moments. But this is tough and we end up only making estimations. However there is another problem which is, if I doubt another's interpretation for whatever reason, and I decide to read the texts directly without a 'filter', then I may fail to see that I carry into the readings my preconception of what the meaning "is not" and I may end up misunderstanding the teachings. Because in fact, the other person may be right all along. And this I think, would have been in part the result of 'mana'. Shin: And we can't go wrong about akusula or kusula because it is said clearly in the scriptures with all the phenonema. All Akusula is leading Khanda to samsara. All Kusula is detaching or lessening the Khanda from samsara, whether it is with panna or not. Sukin: We can and will go wrong until we have become enlightened. If we think we can recognize akusala and kusala just by "theory", then we will be stuck only upon the "stories" about dhamma and this will NOT lead to understanding. Shin: I can't really explain much to you, because it really requires oneself to read the Scriptures and understand it themself. Sukin: "Wise friends" Shin, is the prerequisite for the path of dhamma. I do not say that the scriptures are unimportant, they are. But more important is the wise friend who can point us to the correct understanding of it. Some people need to read and listen a lot, some don't, but all require a kalayanamitta to point the right words at the right time to them. Even Sariputta needed it. Shin: I never will regret what I have done this time, in just totally be dependent on the teaching of the Buddha, by just simply reading the scripture carefully and following it. Sukin: "Carefully" Shin? Who's being careful and what is this carefullness? How sure are we that it is panna and chanda leading the way and not some akusala cetasikas? Is there enough panna accumulated to condition the correct reading of the texts, can we be sure?! I don't mind if you regret( but don't dwell on it;-) ), but what if you are wrong and never know it? Shin: As I have mentioned again, the scriptures has all the answers to your questions or doubts and commentaries explained everything. Sukin: I believe so( haven't read anything myself ), but even to have a question requires awareness of everyday realities otherwise we may only be intellectualizing. Not saying that this is what your doing!;) Shin: There is no easy way. Sukin: Not easy at all. But there is only "one" way, and that is Satipatthana. And if we understand what this is, we at least have some direction for this life in which we have come to know the teachings. Shin: The most precious thing requires effort and determination and sammadhitti. Sukin: Right. But sammaditthi comes first, and we have to be sure that we have it before we can expect the other factors to be samma. Allow me to comment on this statement of yours "All Kusala is detaching or lessening the Khanda from samsara, whether it is with panna or not". My understanding is very limited and I am not confident about this; What you are saying is that the moments of dana and sila without panna also leads one out of samsara. I doubt it. When I give or refrain from breaking a precept without understanding that it is not "I" who is doing it, then surely I am doing it for a reward or fear of punishment. Even if I see theoretically the use of dana and sila, if at the moment of performing it I do it with a sense of self, I will have to be reborn to reap the fruit of the "intention" at that time, no? This sounds reasonable to me, does it to you?! Have I misunderstood something? Kalayamitta, Shin Hope you remain so. Best wishes, Sukin. 14091 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/1/02 3:27:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > I think you are saying that because the citta and its object changes very > rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This perhaps forms the basis > of the attraction to the 'slowing down' approach.) > > As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the changing > object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different realities, each > to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, this does not mean > awareness of all realities all the time, nor does it mean awareness of but > a single moment of a dhamma (these would be things that only the likes of > a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does it mean necessarily awareness of > different dhammas successively. > > If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it doesn't > matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other moments of > awareness. > > > Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. > > Goglerr > > As I've said above, we are not trying to 'catch' an individual moments of > citta or its object, so the speed of change is not a problem. > > ========================== I think you are addressing something important and interesting here. It is also a subject which, to my mind, calls for clarification. First of all - yes, I think it is that "keeping up" aspect which motivates the attempt to "slow down", a matter which I *partially* question (and which is an issue separate from that of formal vs informal meditation.). The main thing, however, which I would like to see clarified, however, is the meaning of 'awareness' in what I have quoted by you above. It doesn't seem that it could mean vi~n~nana/citta, for that is available all the time. Can it mean sati? That strikes me as more probable. I would suppose that in an early "training phase", doing things more slowly could aid in the building of sati, but I also think that once a certain level of sati is in place, it is that, itself, which subjectively "slows things down" and leads to yet further sati. I'd be interested in hearing yours and others comments on this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14092 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/1/02 3:31:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > > I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of > > yours by > > a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara > > Nikaya > > which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of > > concentration, > > and 3) formal meditation. > > The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as > > *including* > > formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). > > The three refererences are the following: > > 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] > > 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] > > 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] > > These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, > > An > > Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & > > Bhikkhu > > Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > I've had a look at these suttas. Very interesting and well worth > discussing. > > However, I don't think any of them says that awareness necessarily > includes formal meditation practice or samatha/jhana attainments. > Nor of course do they contradict the passage I cited from the opening of > the Satipatthana Sutta that says in fairly specific terms that awareness > properly developed and maintained, leads to the final goal, including the > eradication of all defilements, or > > Jon > =========================== I think these suttas make several points relevant to previous discussions on DSG. At some point, either when I get my scanner fixed, or someone else can post them, a discussion of the sutta might be in worthwhile. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14093 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Larry Dear Nina and Larry, Is the "contact" in Patichcha Samuppada the same as the "passa" (contact without any gap with the object of the citta) chethacika? If so "passa" is with every citta (so contact too). ~meththa ranil Nina, you to see, at least in theory, that there is not one lasting moment of seeing but in fact many different cittas performing their functions > Larry, I'm wondering at what point there is contact. 14094 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no. 1 Perfections. Ch 2, no. 1. The Perfection of Generosity The perfection of generosity is mentioned first among the ten perfections. As we read in the definition of dåna, given by the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct²: Giving (dåna) has the characteristic of relinquishing; its function is to dispel greed for things that can be given away; its manifestation is non-attachment, or the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence; an object that can be relinquished is its proximate cause. Most people know that generosity is the giving away of things for the benefit and happiness of others. Laypeople cannot give away all their possessions because they still cling to sense objects, but when there is an opportunity for generosity they should practice it. If one is unable to give away something one possesses, be it small or great, for the benefit of others, it will be so much harder to give up the clinging and attachment to the nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas one takes for self, beings and persons. Therefore, it is necessary to give away things for the benefit and happiness of others as much as one is able to, in order to eliminate defilements, including attachment to possessions as well as clinging to nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas one takes for beings, people and self. Thus, in our daily life we should not neglect the development of the perfection of generosity. We should know whether our generosity is a perfection or not. No matter how much we give away, generosity is not a perfection if we do not see the need to eradicate defilements. People who have understanding of the Dhamma and practise generosity should consider whether their generosity is a perfection. If someone gives away things without expecting a reward, not even rebirth in a heavenly plane, then his generosity can be a perfection. However, if someone wants to receive a reward, when he wishes for rebirth as a millionaire, or for rebirth in different degrees of heavenly planes, or if he wants to receive gain, honour and praise, then his life is still bound up with all kinds of expectations, and his goal is not the eradication of defilements. If we reflect about this we can know whether our giving at a specific moment is a perfection or not. The perfection of generosity is a condition to cross over to the further shore, namely, the eradication of defilements, different from the realm of defilements. It is an extremely long way to reach the further shore, the eradication of defilements; it is not easy to reach it. We should clearly understand what the eradication of defilements means. Therefore, we should know whether at the moment of giving we are hoping for a reward or not. Giving that eliminates lobha, attachment, is giving with the aim to eradicate defilements, and that means that we should not expect any kind of reward. Besides generosity by way of material aid, there is a higher kind of giving, and that is the giving of Dhamma. This is actually the gift of right understanding which will be beneficial both in this life and also in the lives to come. When we give material things to people who are needy and poor, this has only a temporary effect for them. We may not take into consideration the root cause of their poverty. The fact that people are poor is the result of akusala kamma, and so long as one commits akusala kamma there are conditions for rebirth as a poor person. Besides assistance in a material way, we should help people by going to the root cause of their poverty, and that is, helping them to have right understanding of the truth of the Dhamma. Thus we shall see that we are really able to help each other in daily life, both with material gifts and with the gift of Dhamma. By the gift of Dhamma we help others to gain right understanding of the Dhamma and to apply the Dhamma as well. Moreover, helping people to gain right understanding of the Dhamma can be a condition for them also to develop more kusala: generosity, morality and mental development. Therefore, a person practises loving kindness, mettå, when he helps others in different ways to understand the Dhamma, by propagating it through radio programs, by printing Dhamma books, by Dhamma discussions, by explaining the Dhamma, without expecting a result for himself. In that case his actions of generosity are a perfection, leading to the eradication of defilements. He has the firm understanding that developing kusala not bound up with lobha, attachment, is the development of the perfections. Some people who like to propagate the Dhamma want to evaluate the result of their good deeds. However, the true result of his efforts has nothing to do with the number of people who listen to the Dhamma one tries to propagate or the amount of good deeds one has performed for this purpose. The result of his efforts manifests itself in the citta of the listener who is thus better able to further develop his understanding and apply the Dhamma. 14095 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:00am Subject: paramattha manjusa Dear Shin, good to see you here. I am glad you wish to share your studies. Do you have the paramattha manjusa in Thai? I do not have it, and sometimes I may have a question. I should buy it in the Mahamongkut library next time. Success with your studies, with appreciation, Nina. 14096 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 6:47am Subject: ADL ch. 14 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 14 (1) THE FUNCTION OF JAVANA When we see, hear, smell, taste, experience an object through the body-sense or through the mind-door, there is not only one citta experiencing the object through the appropriate doorway, but a series or process of cittas. A rupa which impinges on one of the senses is experienced by a series of cittas. When that sense-door process is over, the object is experienced by cittas through the mind-door. Sense-door processes and mind-door processes arise and fall away continuously. We may not know that both in a sense-door process and in a mind-door process there are akusala cittas or kusala cittas arising. Because of our accumulated ignorance we do not clearly know our akusala cittas and kusala cittas and we do not recognize our more subtle defilements. In a sense-door process the object is experienced first by cittas which are not kusala cittas or akusala cittas; it is experienced by kiriyacittas and by vipakacittas. The sense-door-adverting-consciousness (panca- dvaravajjana-citta) is an ahetuka kiriyacitta (a kiriya-citta without beautiful roots or unwholesome roots). It is succeeded by one of the dvi-panca-vinnanas (the five pairs, which are : seeing-consciousness, hearing-consciousness etc.) and this citta is ahetuka vipaka. Then there are two more ahetuka vipakacittas : the sampatic-chana-citta which receives the object and the santirana-citta which investigates the object. The santirana-citta is succeeded by the votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness) which is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. The votthapana-citta determines the object and is then succeeded by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. In the case of those who are arahats there are no kusala cittas or akusala cittas succeeding the votthapana-citta but kiriyacittas. When the cittas of the sense-door process have fallen away, cittas of the mind-door process experience the object. First there are bhavanga-cittas and then the mano- dvaravajjana- citta arises which has the function of adverting to the object through the mind-door. The mano- dvaravajjana-citta is succeeded by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas in the case of those who are not arahats. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta is not kusala or akusala, it is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. Since cittas arise and fall away very rapidly it is hard to know the different cittas which arise. Often we might not even know when we have kusala cittas or akusala cittas. For example, after there has been seeing we may not realize when there is attachment to the object, when there is aversion towards it, or when there is ignorance of realities. If we study the Dhamma we will learn about our more subtle defilements. Ignorance of our akusala cittas is dangerous. If we do not realize when we have akusala cittas we will continue accumulating akusala. The kusala cittas or akusala cittas which arise perform a function; they perform the function of javana or 'running through the object'. In the sense-door process the votthapana-citta has determined the object already when the javana-cittas arise and in the mind-door process the mano-dvaravajjana-citta has adverted to the object already when the javana-cittas arise. Thus, the kusala cittas or akusala cittas which follow have as their only function to 'run through' the object. Usually there are seven cittas in succession which perform the function of javana. If the first javana-citta is kusala, the succeeding six cittas are also kusala cittas ; if the first javana-citta is akusala, the succeeding six cittas are also akusala cittas. Do we realize it when javana-cittas are cittas rooted in lobha, dosa or moha, or when they are kusala cittas? We are ignorant most of the time, even of javana-cittas. 14097 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 10:46am Subject: Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Dear group, What exactly is Tathagatagarbha? Is it a Theravada doctrine? Is it the same as Alayavijnana? Is it important to learn about? metta, Christine 14098 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/1/02 10:46:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > > Dear group, > > What exactly is Tathagatagarbha? Is it a Theravada doctrine? Is it > the same as Alayavijnana? Is it important to learn about? > > metta, > Christine > ======================== It is definitely not Theravadin. It is a term of one school of Mahayana. I believe it means 'Buddha womb' and that it refers to the potential for complete enlightenment in all beings. Although on the face of it, it seems rather innocuous, some writers, David Kalupahana, for example, consider it to be a kind of substantialist aberration in Mahayana, and contrary, for example, to the middle-way, emptiness direction taken by such as Nagarjuna. It isn't the same as alayavijnana. Alayavijnana is "storehouse consciousness", which, in Mahayana, is quite close to the bhavangasota notion of Theravada. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14099 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Larry Hi Ranil, you are correct. Phassa arises with every citta. So every citta is a miniature version of paticcasamuppada. On the other hand, maybe we could say sense consciousness in 5 door process is first 'contact' with a rupa, so to speak. I think these patterns of evolution are evident on different levels of organization, but maybe not. It's all pretty confusing to me. Headache! 14100 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 7:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi again Christine - Here are two references I just found: http://www.selfknowledge.com/dtat.htm http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Buddhism/doc With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14101 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (1) Dear group, does javana citta cause vipaka citta? Does it cause anything else? Does votthapana citta decide what kind of javana is appropriate? thanks, Larry 14102 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (1) Re: "Dear group, does javana citta cause vipaka citta? Does it cause anything else? Does votthapana citta decide what kind of javana is appropriate? thanks, Larry" There are some useful posts in Useful Posts File about votthapana citta. The answer is yes, votthapana does determine the javana but that determination is based on 'accumulations'. I assume this is accumulations of past javana cittas. It seems to be unknown where all this is accumulated. Maybe the alayavijnana :-) Larry ps: accumulating, compounding, compacting, and forming are all the same and is the very essence of experience. Not seeing that is ignorance. 14103 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi Howard, and All, How my question came about is that I also look in on a multi- tradition List and find sometimes that I am unfamiliar with whether a doctrine is from All-of-Buddhism or is a doctrine of a particular tradition only. The List has over a thousand members, so a wide variety of posts appear of differing reliability. Lots of things 'sound Theravada', mostly I know what is, but sometimes I am unsure. Someone put up a long quote from Tsung-Mi with no link.(of which I give a sample para. below) "Originally there was a single true spiritual Nature, uncreate and imperishable, neither increasing nor decreasing, changeless and immutable. Sentient beings, existing from the beginningless beginning, suffering delusion, have been unaware of it. Being hidden, it is called Tathagatagarbha, the womb of the Tathagata. Because Tathagatagarbha is hidden, there are the mental characteristics called birth and death. True Mind, unborn and imperishable, and the delusions of birth and death, coexist. They are neither identical nor different, and this is called Alayavijnana, the storehouse of consciousness. Alayavijnana has two aspects, the enlightened and the unenlightened. Due to its unenlightened dimension, whenever a deluded thought appears, it is called a sign of karma. Since this thought is not recognized as unreal in essence, it activates the subjective consciousness and also projects the illusive world of objects. But one does not realize that the objective world appears out of the delusions of one's own mind. One clings to this world of objects, believing it to have indisputable existence. This is attachment to dhamma or phenomena." Thanks for your replies Howard (which mean more terms to look up :)). I'm having trouble getting your second link to match the topic... any hints? However, I also have continued to research a little on any link between the two terms Alayavijnana and Tathagatgarbha. I found this article. Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness by Venerable Dr. Walpola Rahula. http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/alaya1.htm "In the Lankavatarasutra the term tathagatagarbha is used as a synonym for alayavijnana and is described as 'luminous by nature' (prakrtiprabhasvara) and 'pure by nature' (prakrtiparisuddha) but appearing as impure 'because it is sullied by adventitious defilements' (agantuklesopaklistataya). In the Anguttaranikaya, citta is described as 'luminous' (pabhassara), but it is 'sullied by adventitious minor defilements' (agantukehi upakkilesehi upakkilittham). One may notice here that alaya-vijnana (or tathagatgarbha) and citta are described almost by the same terms. We have seen earlier that the Sandhi-nirmocana-sutra says that alayavijnana is also called citta. Asanga too mentions that it is named citta." What do you reckon? And didn't dsg have a discussion on luminous mind a while back? or was that a different thing altogether..... metta, Chris --- Howard wrote: > Hi again Christine - > > Here are two references I just found: > > http://www.selfknowledge.com/dtat.htm > http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Buddhism/doc > > With metta, > Howard 14104 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Larry, Sorry for the delay.....I’ve been trying to avoid the computer over the last few days because of a rt wrist injury....(slowly using the mouse with the left hand now). You asked about whether ‘resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha or dosa?’ I think the latest extract from ADL on javana cittas will have already confirmed for you that lobha or dosa only arise with akusala cittas (unwholesome consciousness) in the javana process which are quite distinct from the vipaka (resultant) or kiriya (inoperative, i.e neither cause nor result) cittas. After you’ve digested the segment (or at the end of the chapter), let me know if this still isn’t clear. As we’re interested in the applicability of abhidhamma in daily life, I think it’s important to consider the relevance of this to the development of satipatthana. If there is the (wrong) idea that lobha or dosa (attachment or aversion) are just the results of kamma, or that they arise with seeing or hearing automatically, I don’t believe there will be any conditions to understand the sense door experiencing such as seeing, hearing and so on, for what it is -- i.e. just a brief moment of experiencing an object with indifferent feeling, resulting from previous kamma and other conditions and quite distinct from all the stories and ‘emotions’ which arise on account of what is seen or heard. In the same way, if we have the idea of lobha and dosa as result-- rather than arising with kusala and akusala cittas later in the process -- it gives fuel to the ‘fatalistic’ idea that everything is pre-determined from previous lives and therefore inevitable. Understanding about accumulations, on the other hand -- and about kusala and akusala cittas in particular -- still doesn’t mean there is any self that controls or determines outcomes, but it shows how different conditions operate. It shows how the ‘reactions’ -- or rather the noble or ignoble qualities -- arise with the javana cittas following the vipaka cittas of seeing consciousness and so on. This sounds rather garbled, so I hope I haven't confused anyone further;-) ..... I’m just looking at a couple of your other posts and questions briefly. You just wrote to Ranil about phassa and explained that it arises with every citta. If there were no ‘contact’ between consciousness and its object (whether a nama or rupa), would there be any experiencing of the object? Would there be any attachment or grasping arising on account of the object and so on...... So we see the importance of conditions and all the various ‘parts’ coming together, for consciousness to occur Nina recently quoted from Vis. XXII, 72: “No store of broken states, no future stock; Those born balance like seeds on needle points. Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; Those present decay, unmingled with those past. They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.” ***** I hope this helps explain a little about phassa (contact) as a universal cetasika (mental factor) and as an essential factor in dependent origination. Rob K may add more details or you may like to review his series on d.o. in Useful Posts. Finally, you also asked (and answered;-))some Qs about javana cittas and votthapana cittas. In brief, because I’m sure we’ll soon be reading more detail in the extracts, it is the cetana (intention) in particular, arising in the javana processes with the lobha, dosa and other mental factors which causes the vipaka cittas. As you also suggest, lobha or dosa arising .with the javana citta now will ‘accumulate’ a little bit more and make it just that little bit easier for lobha or dosa to arise again in another javana process by way of many different conditions. Thank you for your helpful extracts from Vism on accumulations; “XIV 131: [on the formations (sankhara) aggregate] what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating. n. 57: "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampindana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating; for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis. (Pm. 484)” ***** Many thanks, Larry. always good talking to you and I don’t mind how I’m addressed;-) Sarah ===== --- <> wrote: > Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise > with lobha or dosa? 14105 From: sarahdhhk Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 5:03pm Subject: Re: Perfections Ch 2, no. 1 Dear Nina, (Chris & All), I'm appreciating your translation of the `Perfections' by K.Sujin. Today I was reading the installment on generosity and considering further. You explained to Christine before about why equanimity is given after metta and I was reading about why generosity is given first in the Cariyapitaka (p245 in B.Bodhi's Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries): "Giving is stated at the beginning: (a) because it is common to all beings, since even ordinary people practise giving; (b) because it is the least fruitful; and (c) because it is the easiest to practise." ***** Hmm, `..easiest to practise'. Pause for thought: how many opportunities do we pass up in a day for giving of one kind or another, even though we know life is so very short (in theory)? If this is the easiest, no wonder the other paramis don't come easily... What I've really been reflecting on is the characteristic of dana (generosity) as being without attachment or expectation. We read in the same text: "Giving has the characteristic of relinquishing; its function is to dispel greed for things that can be given away; it manifestation is non-attachment, or the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence; an object that can be relinquished is it proximate cause." ***** We read in the extract from K.Sujin's book about how dhamma dana is the highest form of giving: ..... "Besides assistance in a material way, we should help people by going to the root cause of their poverty, and that is, helping them to have right understanding of the truth of the Dhamma. Thus we shall see that we are really able to help each other in daily life, both with material gifts and with the gift of Dhamma. By the gift of Dhamma we help others to gain right understanding of the Dhamma and to apply the Dhamma as well. Moreover, helping people to gain right understanding of the Dhamma can be a condition for them also to develop more kusala: generosity, morality and mental development. Therefore, a person practises loving kindness, mettå, when he helps others in different ways to understand the Dhamma..." ..... We may think that whenever we speak or write about the dhamma, that this is dhamma dana. Of course, it depends on the intentions. Sometimes we may be concerned about whether anyone has heard or listened to what we've spoken or read what we've written here;-). We may have other hopes and expectations and be waiting for a reply of acknowledgment. There are bound to be kusala and akusala cittas involved when we offer dhamma, I think and only the panna and sati will distinguish the different states. Gradually we may learn to give dhamma dana with less expectation or concern about the result. I was particularly reflecting on the final part of today's extract of K.Sujin's book on this theme:. "Some people who like to propagate the Dhamma want to evaluate the result of their good deeds. However, the true result of his efforts has nothing to do with the number of people who listen to the Dhamma one tries to propagate or the amount of good deeds one has performed for this purpose. The result of his efforts manifests itself in the citta of the listener who is thus better able to further develop his understanding and apply the Dhamma." ***** When we were in Sri Lanka, K.Sujin mentioned to Jon and myself that the Foundation (the Centre where she and others teach) doesn't belong to her. Her intention is for the teaching of dhamma to continue, but she doesn't mind if it continues or not. She does her best to spread the dhamma with kusala intention, but has no expectations or regrets on this score. Again she reminded us that the purpose of the development should be the reduction of wrong view, clinging to self and mana (conceit), not the accumulation of details, self-importance or more conceit. Again, as we read in the Cariyapitaka (p281, BB): ..... "Giving thus, the Great Man does not give unwillingly, nor by afflicting others, nor out of fear, moral shame, or the scolding of those in need of gifts. When there is something excellent, he does not give what is mean. He does not give extolling himself and dispraging others. He does not give out of desire for the fruit, nor with loathing for those who ask, nor with lack of consideration. Rather, he gives thoroughly, with his own hand, at the proper time, considerately, without discrimination, filled with joy throughout the three times (i.e. before presenting the gift, while giving it, and after giving it). Having given, he does not become remorseful afterwards. He does not become conceited or obsequious in relation to the recipients, but behaves amiably towards them....." ***** (Chris, perhaps with regard to your questions on feeding squirrels and other creatures, we can see how dana can be increased and become a parami, by understanding more about its nature, by giving with `consideration'. `at the proper time' and so on. I think we can see how satipatthana developed with generosity will help there to be more understanding and growth of this parami.) Finally, on the subject of expectations (in general) and sorrow, I was re-reading the helpful summary of the Silavimamsa Jataka (which Manji quoted in part before) in Nina's own `Perfections' under nekkhama (renunciation) parami. Even if the object of attachment and expectations is the gift of dhamma, the desires are still like the pieces of meat here: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenme nt.htm#Chapter%202 ..... "In the train to Bodhgaya Bhante Dhammadhara read to us the "Silavimamsa-Jãtaka" (no. 330). It is said that a hawk seized a piece of meat and was pecked at by other birds who also wanted it, until he let go of it. Then another bird seized it who was harassed in his turn until he let go of it, and then the same happened to other birds who seized that piece of meat. Whoever let go of it was left in peace. The Bodhisatta said: These desires of ours are like pieces of meat. To those that grasp at them is sorrow, and to those that let go is peace. In the same Jãtaka we read about another example of the sorrow caused by clinging. A female slave Pingala had made an appointment with her lover and was waiting for him, but he did not turn up. So long as she was waiting and hoping for his arrival she was restless and could not sleep peacefully. Hope brings sorrow and the absence of hope brings peace is the lesson taught by this example. We discussed the application of this Jãtaka in daily life. We have many expectations which are all forms of attachment, lobha..." ***** With gratitude for all your dhamma dana and helpful reminders on the parami, Nina. Sarah ===== 14106 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 5:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Shin, Thank you for replying. I see Sukin is also keeping you busy... --- shiau_in_lin wrote: > Dear Sarah, > We can use anything word or call it whatever but the process of the > citta has accumulated the contemplating of the realities or about the > realities. At that moment, it is already the accumulation of panna > and sati. There is definitely no attachment of the sensual objects, > only letting go of ignorance. I think that if you are referring to sampaja~n~na for ‘contemplating of the realities” as used throughout the Satipatthana Sutta (which you mentioned), then I agree with these comments. We read in the commentary notes to the sutta that: “Sampajaano = “Clearly comprehending.” Endowed with knowledge called circumspection (sampaja~n~na) Clearly comprehending - Discerning rightly, entirely and equally (sammaa samantato sama~nca pajaananto)” ***** >Everything is accumulated, even if you > memorized the whole Tipitaka, it will be a Upanissa-paccaya in the > future. And when it is conditioned, it will arise. Remember Javana > citta and all the Paccaya. We are not looking at only now. There is > still a future Khanda or Ayatana. ..... Of course sampajanna only refers to very specific cittas accompanied by sati and panna as you mentioned. In other words, it only refers to moments of satipatthana. For most of us, when we read (or memorize) even small amounts of the Tipitaka, it’s obvious that sampajanna only arises rarely (if we’re lucky, I hear Sukin adding). Much of the time when we are studying, there is ignorance, attachment to not only what is read or being ‘grasped’, but also to sights, sounds, smells and thoughts while we read. I was studying some Pali this morning and there was quite a bit of dosa when I had to keep checking the index to find out the meaning of the vocabulary. In other words, I think it always depends on the citta at any given time as to whether it will be upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition) or other conditions for future kusala or akusala mental states. I know for myself, that often when I study intensely or try to memorize lists or vocabulary, for example, that it is soon forgotten. It may as you say, still act as a condition for wholesome states, but we know from the texts that the main conditions for the development of pa~n~na are hearing, considering and applying the teachings. Robert K recently quoted this from the commentary: ***** “In the satipatthana sutta atthakatha it says that the wisdom factor of enlightenment is dependent on: "Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects. Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. """endquote” ***** You mention that we are ‘not only looking at now’ and this reminds me of comments that our friend Erik used to make. If we consider or understand that in fact there only is ‘now’ or these paramattha dhammas appearing now, what other dhammas could sampajanna possibly ‘clearly comprehend’? ..... > I will not be able to come in as often as I can. BUT if there is > anything which is nice, I will try my best to quote it from the > Tipitaka and other commentaries for the reference of others. ..... We’ll appreciate your quotes (or references may be easier for you to give) or comments. I was interested to look through the list of the parts of the body you quoted and to see which parts were not conditioned by kamma. ..... > > Sarah ! In most Sutta,the Lord Buddha constantly mentioned the > Bhukkhuis to remember and contemplate his teaching. I believe in him. > If it is not beneficiary, why would he say it !...Doesn't that make > you wonder ? Any way it is up to your own faith. From my recent > experiences, it has helped me in understanding the realities in my > daily life because it is like a road map for me to reference on. OK ! ..... I certainly agree with the importance of contemplation and careful consideration. Some people read a lot. I’ve always found it more helpful to read a little at a time and contemplate. We can see all the different accumulations in this regard on DSG. Sukin likes to listen, but doesn’t like to read. You and several others like to read a lot. Whatever is meant by ‘remember and contemplate’ (I’d be glad if you can give us a reference or quote to discuss further) they must refer to kusala cittas accompanied by sati. I think you’ve raised some very helpful points to consider here, Shin. I’m finding it is a condition for some useful reflection just to write to you. ..... > I guess I am talking more than I should. Take care. > Kalayamitta, > Shin ..... Not at all, Shin. It’s a pleasure to hear from you after so long. I hope you take any discussion in good faith. Like you, I rather appreciate studying on my own most the time, though I've found all the discussion on this list has been a great incentive for this. Wishing you and your husband well....it should be lovely weather in Switzerland now. I’m dreaming about the hiking we were doing there at this time last year. By the way, I wonder if you have a photo of yourself/yourselves (and your dog;-)) to add to our photo album of photogenic members? If you haven’t seen it, it’s on the homepage on the left side at ‘photos’. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Many thanks again, Shin. Sarah ===== 14107 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi, Chris - There are currents and counter-currents within Mahayana. Some of these are quite compatible with Theravada. Others, superficially similar in "sound" are substantialist reinterpretations. The writings of Vasubandhu and Asanga, the founders of the yogacara-vijnanavada school of Mahayana are rather compatible with Theravada, with alayavijnana being pretty much the ordinary flow of experience, defiled in the worldling, but undefiled in the arahant (and bodhisattva), and with tathgatagarbha being merely the potential in that flow for the defilements being uprootable due to their not being inherent, but only adventitious. However, the idealism expressed in the vijnanavada of such scriptures as the Lankavatara Sutra loses the clean, emptiness-oriented of Vasubandhu (and Nagarjuna), and, as I see it, adds on a kind of Vedantic mix filled with the smell of self and substantialism. I believe that in reading Mahayana materials that include such terms as 'alayavijnana' and 'tathagatagarbha', it is often difficult to separate the Buddhism from the aberrations, and great care is needed. In my opinion, what is good in Mahayana has all its roots in the tipitaka, and the tipitaka serves as a safe touchstone and refuge. If you are really interested in this whole matter, I can suggest a book by the Theravadin scholar David Kalupahana that may be to your liking. BTW, as far as that second link is concerned, I just tried it, and it no longer works. Sorry - anicca! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/2/02 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > > Hi Howard, and All, > > How my question came about is that I also look in on a multi- > tradition List and find sometimes that I am unfamiliar with whether a > doctrine is from All-of-Buddhism or is a doctrine of a particular > tradition only. The List has over a thousand members, so a wide > variety of posts appear of differing reliability. Lots of > things 'sound Theravada', mostly I know what is, but sometimes I am > unsure. > Someone put up a long quote from Tsung-Mi with no link.(of which I > give a sample para. below) > "Originally there was a single true spiritual Nature, uncreate and > imperishable, neither increasing nor decreasing, changeless and > immutable. Sentient beings, existing from the beginningless beginning, > suffering delusion, have been unaware of it. Being hidden, it is > called Tathagatagarbha, the womb of the Tathagata. Because > Tathagatagarbha is hidden, there are the mental characteristics called > birth and death. True Mind, unborn and imperishable, and the delusions > of birth and death, coexist. They are neither identical nor different, > and this is called Alayavijnana, the storehouse of consciousness. > Alayavijnana has two aspects, the enlightened and the unenlightened. > Due to its unenlightened dimension, whenever a deluded thought > appears, it is called a sign of karma. Since this thought is not > recognized as unreal in essence, it activates the subjective > consciousness and also projects the illusive world of objects. But one > does not realize that the objective world appears out of the delusions > of one's own mind. One clings to this world of objects, believing it > to have indisputable existence. This is attachment to dhamma or > phenomena." > > Thanks for your replies Howard (which mean more terms to look up :)). > I'm having trouble getting your second link to match the topic... any > hints? However, I also have continued to research a little on any > link between the two terms Alayavijnana and Tathagatgarbha. I found > this article. Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness by Venerable Dr. > Walpola Rahula. > http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/alaya1.htm > "In the Lankavatarasutra the term tathagatagarbha is used as a > synonym for alayavijnana and is described as 'luminous by nature' > (prakrtiprabhasvara) and 'pure by nature' (prakrtiparisuddha) but > appearing as impure 'because it is sullied by adventitious > defilements' (agantuklesopaklistataya). In the Anguttaranikaya, citta > is described as 'luminous' (pabhassara), but it is 'sullied by > adventitious minor defilements' (agantukehi upakkilesehi > upakkilittham). One may notice here that alaya-vijnana (or > tathagatgarbha) and citta are described almost by the same terms. We > have seen earlier that the Sandhi-nirmocana-sutra says that > alayavijnana is also called citta. Asanga too mentions that it is > named citta." > What do you reckon? > And didn't dsg have a discussion on luminous mind a while back? or > was that a different thing altogether..... > > metta, > Chris > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14108 From: goglerr Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Hi Jon, > In a message dated 7/1/02 3:27:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > I think you are saying that because the citta and its object changes very rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This perhaps forms the basis of the attraction to the 'slowing down' approach.) G: I didn't mean the 'slowing down' approach from this aspect. I was only refering to bodily movement (of course, on certain time!) > > As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the changing object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different realities, each to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, this does not mean awareness of all realities all the time, nor does it mean awareness of but a single moment of a dhamma (these would be things that only the likes of a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does it mean necessarily awareness of different dhammas successively. > > If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it doesn't matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other moments of awareness. _________________________________________________________ G: Of course in our daily life, we cannot have sati to be the all the time. As u said , and I agree, that there are isolated moments of sati. And I personally too, try to mindful throughout day, and as I experience isolated moments and I find that it's wonderful and have much benefit. Didn't the Buddha said that sati is helpful everywhere? I see it that we are looking at different aspect and different emphasis. On my sharing, I was focusing on 'formal meditation' - as in 'formal sitting and walking'. I do them to whenever I have the time, and I find that a succesion, a continouity of sati, for a period of time, more profound and clearer dhamma are presented. I not trying to compare with biasness but a matter of explanation and understanding. They are from my personal experience that I share. _________________________________________________________ > > As I've said above, we are not trying to 'catch' an individual moments of citta or its object, so the speed of change is not a problem. > > G 14109 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Visit Sumane Very nice to hear from you. Thanks again for your kind words. Please don't feel there is even the slightest thing that could have turned out any better for our meeting in Colombo, from our point of view. It was a pleasure for us all, and we look forward to the next opportunity (in Colombo again, or perhaps in Bangkok if there is any chance of you making a trip there?). I appreciate your difficulties of time and access in sending messages to the list. But we will be delighted to hear from you whenever you can make it. Jon --- sumane758 wrote: > Dear Jon, Sukin & all, > > I feel bad that I take time to respond. This is because of so much > commitment to my job – providing solace to my countrymen in dire > straits (by virtue of my job in a bank), the time constraints > entailing the effort (which involves extensive travel to remote areas > without e-mail), the use of office PC-server-mail box for dhamma > communications etc. > > I am impressed & inspired with your kind words on my contributions at > the Colombo Meeting & to the List. Whatever, I don't deserve so much > praise for what I have done since I could have done more for you nice > people here, I should have but I didn't. I was all-eager to meet the > Group & discuss, especially K Sujin. Sarah would bear evidence to my > enthusiasm thereon and with so early notice given, I think I should > have done more. Little things like visiting the Hotel & looking into > arrangements before your arrival, especially when Nihal was > conversant with the venue & the facilities it offered. This may be > because of a feeling of alien-ness towards you all, generated with a > feeling of humbleness/inferiority originating from the lesser > knowledge of dhamma; may be, may not be but the greatest thing is > that I now know, if it was so, then it all is unfounded. That's after > meeting you all. > ... > Regards! > > Sumane Rathnasuriya 14110 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 9:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > > > Thanks for the homework, Howard (!) > > > > Actually, I look forward to reading these suttas over the weekend. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Actually, I apologize for having given the material to you just by > reference, and not quoting it. The light on my scanner needs replacing. > Otherwise, I would have quoted the material for you. Absolutely no apology necessary, Howard (I was just following along the standing homework joke that comes up from time to time). I have the book, and always enjoy a chance to browse (it's a very browsable book, I find). > ------------------------------------------------------ > > I am pleased to know (if I read you correctly) that it is not > something > > within the Satipatthana Sutta itself that leads you to the > understanding > > in question (although I of course would agree that a sutta should > always > > be read in the context of other suttas and the Tipitika as a whole, > and > > never in isolation). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is primarily the taking of this sutta as part of the whole > body of > scripture that permits the interpretation of both formal and informal > meditation as being included, though the very first section on > mindfulness of > breath does, indeed, suggest standard sitting meditation. Other parts of the > section on mindfulness of the body are more noncommittal, suggesting to me > both formal and informal walking and standing meditation, but definitely > not being explicit. It may well be possible to give the Satipatthana Sutta an interpretation that is consistent with the 'formal meditation' / jhanic approach, but is this an interpretation that the sutta actually requires? If not, then surely this casts doubt on formal sitting meditation / the jhanas (or their near equivalents) as a *necessary* part of satipatthana. > Sometimes the distinction between formal and informal blurs > anyway. For example, when walking, one may, as a result of purposeful > intent, > note that one is about to turn, and that one does then turn. This can be > "informal". It does provide a level of understanding. On the other hand, > in a > "formal" session of walking meditation, in which one is repeatedly and > slowly walking back and forth along a 20-30 pace path, constantly and > carefully noting with focus the foot placements and changes, the > associated > sensations, the intentions to turn, the turning, and the wandering of one's > attention, concentration and mindfulness tend to become quite > heightened, > one's "state" changes, one's attention becomes quite microscopic, and > clarity is enhanced. Fortunately for us, the teachings are still sufficiently extant to be able to check for ourselves whether a particular form of practice, and therefore any experience arising from it, is in accordance with the Buddha's actual words. We do not have to rely solely on the opinion of another (including and perhaps most significantly one who is a teacher to us) on this very important point. Do the texts, for example, speak of slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements' etc) as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding? How does noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that the suttas say are to be known? The texts are the ultimate touchstone for right or wrong view. We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or anyone else's assurance on this. > Inasmuch as the formal practice of, especially sitting and > walking, meditation has been a part of the tradition in all schools for a > couple thousand years, and inasmuch as all schools revere the > satipatthana > sutta and anapanasat sutta and relate their practice to them, I find it > reasonable to infer that these suttas do not exclude formal meditation > practice. Talking of reasonable inferences then, would it also be reasonable to infer that if sitting and walking meditation were a necessary part of satipatthana they would be clearly identified as such in the Satipatthana Sutta? You mention tradition among the various schools of Buddhism. There has always been and will always be (I am sure), among those who choose to lead the homeless life, a tradition of spending time in solitary contemplation. There is nothing remarkable about this. In the time of the Buddha it was obviously very widespread. Because it was generally associated with the development of certain kinds of kusala, it was encouraged by the Buddha. However, it is not called 'formal practice', in the texts, or 'practice' of any kind, as far as I know, and I don't think that's a very appropriate term for it. 'Formal practice' suggests that the time outside those periods is less a time of practice, whereas a reading of some of the commentarial literature would quickly show this not to be the case for those monks who undertook regular solitary contemplation, even for those developing high levels of samatha. In any event, this is quite a different issue from the question of formal sitting meditation practice as a necessary part of satipatthana, according to the Buddha's word. Encouragement of solitary contemplation (actually, of the kusala that is associated with solitary contemplation) does not amount to an endorsement of solitary contemplation as a necessary aspect of the path. Jon 14111 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 10:16pm Subject: Becoming a Buddhist Monk Interested in reading the ongoing experiences of an American going to the forests of Thailand to become a Buddhist Monk? He will be attending the famous and difficult Wat Pah Nanachat (International Forest Temple) in a short time. Want to follow his adventures as he follows the Buddhist path? To help spread the dharma, join the Yahoo Group: The Triple Gem at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thetriplegem/join 14112 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Howard, Goggy, Shin and all, Thank you Howard for your patience answering my questions. No need to answer all, many of my questions are more exclamations! For a long time I was wondering what motivated people to go to centers for intensive meditation, I really try to understand them. You described the atmosphere in such a center by your answers. Goggy explained that some people need a tranquillizer (in the right sense, by way of samatha), they are so restless and cannot even think of paramattha dhammas. I really see his point. Is there no other way to help them? We could speak about their problems, and show them that these are just dhammas, arising because of conditions, beyond control. We could speak about paramattha dhammas without mentioning any names, couldn't we? Another matter is that people are so impressed by the teacher who is so kind, calm, understanding. But, as A. Sujin often said, it is not the person who counts, it is the Dhamma and we have to check this *ourselves*. How much clinging is there to a person? This can blind us. When we have piti and somanassa (rapture and happy feeling) how much clinging is there? A good friend is important, but, as A. Sujin said, it is the Dhamma that is your good friend. It is difficult not to cling to people, whenever we like someone, find him or her sympathetic, there is already clinging. Anybody who can help us to have more understanding of the teachings is our good friend. I had to learn this in the course of years, now I appreciate many good friends who give me good reminders. Lodewijk said, that it is excellent what Shin is doing now and I understand her so well. She sees that clinging to a teacher is no good, that we have to check the teachings ourselves. Lodewijk reminded me that the Buddha said, take Dhamma as your island, as your refuge. We then read that this means developing satipatthana. It is difficult to detect clinging, to persons, to our progress. Lack of progress may be a motive to go to centers. And then, noticing progress because of this may be a motive. I am concerned that people may not check this: is this progress they notice not merely in their thoughts? Does it matter to be able to notice progress? If it matters to us we may neglect again the dhamma now. This is very important: how much understanding is there of nama and rupa now? Are they different from each other? That is the first thing that has to be known. If we skip the first stage of insight the next ones cannot follow, and wrong view cannot be eradicated. People want so much to have less lobha, dosa, and moha, but first wrong view has to be eradicated. Otherwise, no way. Howard's suttas: I select "Living by Dhamma", about the monk who masters Dhamma, repeats itthinks about it, but neglects to go apart and devotes himself to calm. Ekiibhaava.m vissajjeti, gives himself to being alone. The sutta ends with: see these tree roots, meditate. Jhaayathaa. The Buddha spoke to monks, they should not chat in the villages. Meditate: as discussed before, this has two meanings, I shall repeat it for those who are new. The Co. to this sutta explains that the roots of trees means, places which are free of people. It states: Thus, there are two kinds of jhana: aramanupanijjhaana (contemplation of the objects of samatha) and lakkhanupanijjhaana (contemplation of the characteristics of impermanence, etc.) Before, we discussed that samatha and vipassana are developed both, that jhana is most difficult and not for everybody, that even those who attain jhana must also develop vipassana in order to realize enlightenment. For those who like Pali: Here is the text about jhaana I referred to some months ago: Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha (do not be neglectful, do not be slothful). The other sutta next time. To conclude, I quote: As Jon wrote to Lisa, It strikes me how different accumulations of different people are. Some, when reading this may have aversion, but I feel piti and somanassa, I feel as if Jon hands me a present. Wonderful, I need to be reminded that akusala does not matter, that it is much more important to see whatever appears for what it is. I know in theory, but I keep on forgetting. Best wishes Nina. op 30-06-2002 17:52 schreef Howard op Howard: (I did not paste all): As far as what is experienced during formal meditation is concerned, > well, this is a bit like trying to describe ice cream to those who may have > tried milk but no dessert. ;-) It really needs to be directly experienced. > As far as accumulations are concerned, well, it seems to me that we > can make all sorts of guesses and assumptions about what might or might not > be our "accumulations", but, in fact, we don't know. I do know that again and > again the Buddha instructed his followers to find "roots of trees" etc and to > meditate. I can attest first hand as to the difference in intensity there is > of concentration, mindfulness, and ease of detailed, direct investigation > between formal meditation (if pursued with regularity) and a practice of > moment-to-moment mindfulness during ordinary activity. I strongly recommend > both.... > One more point about retreats: They are helpful from time to time, but > they are *not* the cornerstone of a practice. The cornerstone is a daily, > regular practice of one's own. Meditation is always available. The breath, > sensations, feelings, thoughts, inclinations - all there, always available > for investigation, both during "ordinary" moments, and, more clearly and > powerfully, during formal practice. The joy of the Dhamma is enlivened by the > sustenance obtained from regular, formal practice. The study and the practice > support each other. Each is impoverished by the absence of the other. Howard. 14113 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Larry op 01-07-2002 15:29 schreef ranil gunawardena op <>: > Is the "contact" in Patichcha Samuppada the same as the "passa" (contact > without any gap with the object of the citta) chethacika? > If so "passa" is with every citta (so contact too). > Dear Ranil, contact accompanies each citta, it supports citta and the accompanying cittas. It contacts the object so that citta and cetasikas can experience it. In the Paticcha Samuppada, contact is highlighted in a particular way: as one of the links leading to continuation of the cycle. Here it is shown how rebirth-consciousness conditions nama and rupa, the cetasikas and rupas, how these condition the six ayatanas, the six bases: the five sense bases and the sixth: mind-base, how the six bases condition contact. Without the six bases there could not be contact which contacts the objects experienced through these bases. Contact conditions feeling, and here it is the feeling that is conascent. Don't we feel differently because of contact which contacts pleasant or unpleasant objects? Feeling conditions craving, and thus the cycle goes on and on. In order to reach the end of the cycle ignorance should be eradicated, ignorance of nama and rupa, ignorance of the four noble Truths. This is in brief, but the Visuddhimagga gives all the details. Ranil, I did not hear enough about Sri Lanka, what were the discussion points that impressed you most? With appreciation, Nina. 14114 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no 2 The Perfections. Ch 2, no. 2. When someone who listens to the Dhamma gains right understanding, he accumulates sincerity, and this is the perfection of truthfulness, sacca pårami. He also accumulates the perfection of determination: he has an unshakeable conviction of his aim, that is, the eradication of defilements. We can evaluate the benefit of listening to the Dhamma at this very moment: have we accumulated more kusala and eliminated akusala? There is another kind of dåna, generosity, and this is abhayadåna, the giving of freedom from danger and fear. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the Eights, Ch IV, §9, Outcomes of Merit, that there are eight outcomes (yields) of merit, which are the going for refuge to the Triple Gem and five gifts 1) . We read about these five gifts: Herein, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of life and abstains from it. By abstaining from the taking of life, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, gives to them freedom from hostility, and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasurable freedom from fear, hostility and oppression... The same is said about the abstaining from stealing, sexual misconduct, wrong speech and intoxicants. Thus, síla can also be considered under the aspect of dåna. Abstaining from deeds that harm others as well as the giving of protection from danger is included in the giving of freedom from fear, abhayadåna. Moreover, also forgiving can be seen as an aspect of the giving of freedom from fear 2). When we forgive someone, we do not give in to ill feelings or revenge. If someone does not know that forgiving is a perfection he will not forgive someone else who has done him wrong. If we do not forgive others how can we attain enlightenment and eradicate defilements? If we consider this it may be a condition for the gift of freedom from fear. This is a way of generosity higher than the giving of material things, åmisa dåna. If we cannot forgive someone we do not like, we cannot develop either other kinds of kusala with regard to this person. If we do not forgive him or if we are still angry with him, we cannot be generous to him, we cannot even give him material things. Neither can we give him the gift of Dhamma, Dhamma dåna, in helping him with Dhamma discussion, or advise him as to what is beneficial in life and what is not beneficial. Footnotes: 1. I inserted this sutta and my additional remarks. I am using the translation of Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel no. 238-240, B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. 2. In Thai to forgive is to give abhåya, freedom from fear or danger. Bhåya is fear or danger, and a is a negation. 14115 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 9:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: … > Jon, > … Well I am interested in any description or commentary in the > Vissudhimagga > which talks about the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, > but also > the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas > themselves. > Anything in those areas would be of great interest to me. I'm not sure > why I > hooked onto the subject of the jhanas when I heard about them sort of > belatedly > last year. I hadn't noticed them before, so it must be a kammic > occurrence for me > to look into something about them. They are so prominent in many > Theravadan > writings and practices and seem to me at least to outline the pathway of > states > that lead to enlightenment in a concretely available way, rather than an > intellectual way. Of course whatever we read about will be intellectual > in a > sense, but I think the subject may 1/ make clear what some of the states > of > consciousness/Right Concentration are in the progression of the path, > and 2/ > perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of > meditation vs. the > role of understanding discernment through sutta. Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement! Here is the focus for our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above: A. Specific areas of interest: 1/ the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, 2/ the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas themselves. B. Associated aspects: 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of consciousness/Right Concentration are in the progression of the path, 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an intellectual way) If this sounds OK, I'll start looking out for passages. But don't hold your breath, this will be very much an 'as and when it happens' thing -- I hope that's OK with you. Of course, anyone else is welcome to join in with passages, questions or comments. > I am curious as to why it > interests you as well. If you were to say a word about your interest in > the jhanas, it might also help me clarify my interest a bit more. My interest is in samatha as a form of kusala that was highly praised by the Buddha. Although I have no aspiration to the jhanic states (in this lifetime, at least), I do not see that as precluding (or excusing) a better understanding of the development of samatha. I find there is very little in the suttas on what is actually meant by the development of samatha (samatha bhavana). I would like to know more. I suspect that the generally held idea on this (i.e., go to a quiet place and focus on a chosen meditation subject) seriously misses the mark. How does that sound? (Our mission statements may differ, but I think we have sufficient common ground ;-)). > Anyway, like a dog > who hears a bird, this subject just makes my ears perk up, so anything > you might > find would be of great interest to me. > > Thanks, > Robert Ep. I'm looking forward to it myself! Jon 14116 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Neither of the links you have offered would open for me. Anything that can be done about this? ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha > Hi again Christine - > > Here are two references I just found: > > http://www.selfknowledge.com/dtat.htm > http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Buddhism/doc > > With metta, > Howard 14117 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 6:51am Subject: ADL ch. 14 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 14 (2) There are fifty-five kinds of citta which can perform the function of javana. Twelve akusala cittas (eight lobha-mula-cittas, two dosa-mula-cittas and two moha-mula-cittas), eight kamavacara kusala cittas, which are called maha-kusala cittas (Kamavacara cittas are cittas which are of the sensuous plane of consciousness, not jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas.), eight maha-kiriyacittas of the arahat (kiriyacittas which are not ahetuka, but accompanied by sobhana hetus). The arahat has maha-kiriyacittas instead of maha-kusala cittas since he does not accumulate any more kamma. Maha-kiriyacittas are of the sensuous plane of consciousness; they are not jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas. Arahats also have kamavacara citta ; they see, hear or think of objects experienced through the senses. However, on account of what is experienced no kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. For the arahat there is also an ahetuka kiriyacitta performing the function of javana, which may arise when he smiles : the hasituppada-citta Those who attain rupa-jhana (fine material jhana) can have five types of rupavacara kusala cittas performing the function of javana, since there are five stages of rupa-jhana. Arahats who attain rupa-jhana can have five types of rupavacara kiriyacittas which perform the function of javana. For those who attain arupa-jhana (immaterial jhana) there can be four types of arupavacara kusala cittas performing the function of javana, since there are four stages of arupa-jhana. Arahats who attain arupa-jhana can have four types of Arupavacara kiriyacittas performing the function of javana. Those who directly experience nibbana have lokuttara cittas. There are eight lokuttara cittas, four of which are magga-cittas ('path-consciousness', 'magga' means path) and four of which are lokuttara vipakacittas, called phala-cittas (' fruit-consciousness', 'phala' means fruit). There are four pairs of lokuttara cittas since there are four stages of enlightenment). Vipakacittas of other levels of consciousness cannot perform the function of javana. Thus, all eight lokuttara cittas perform the function of javana. Summarising the fifty-five cittas which can perform the function of javana. [colectively known as 12 akusala cittas] 8 lobha-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) 2 dosa-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion) 2 moha-mula-citta (citta rooted in ignorance) 8 maha-kusala cittas (kamavacara kusala cittas) 8 maha-kiriyacittas 1 hasituppada-citta (ahetuka kiriyacitta which may arise when the arahat smiles) 5 rupavacara kusala cittas (rupa-jhanacittas) 5 rupavacara kiriyacittas (rupa-jhanacittas of the arahat) 4 arupavacara kusala cittas (arupa-jhanacittas) 4 arupavacara kiriyacittas (arupa-jhanacittas of the arahat) [colectively known as 8 lokuttara cittas] 4 magga-cittas (lokuttara kusala cittas) 4 phala-cittas (lokuttara vipakacittas) 14118 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Sarah, I'm still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems to be the only one that we really notice. And if sense consciousness is merely sense consciousness, that seems like a meager, wimpy kamma result. If we have an akusala intention and the only result is sense consciousness, what kind of a deal is that??? Where's the justice? the retribution? the dukkha? the learning? Are there other kamma results of javana cittas beside vipaka cittas? What happened to your wrist? Is it kamma vipaka? Larry 14119 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi, Bhante - > > Neither of the links you have offered would open for me. Anything that can > be done about this? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:25 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha > > > > Hi again Christine - > > > > Here are two references I just found: > > > > http://www.selfknowledge.com/dtat.htm > > http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Buddhism/doc > > > > With metta, > > Howard > =============================== I just tried them. The second one still does not work, but the first was was fine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14120 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/2/02 7:28:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Sarah, I'm still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the > different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems > to be the only one that we really notice. And if sense consciousness is > merely sense consciousness, that seems like a meager, wimpy kamma > result. If we have an akusala intention and the only result is sense > consciousness, what kind of a deal is that??? Where's the justice? the > retribution? the dukkha? the learning? Are there other kamma results of > javana cittas beside vipaka cittas? > > What happened to your wrist? Is it kamma vipaka? > > Larry > > ========================== If I may butt in with my phenomenalist perspective: What happened to her wrist is all sense consciousness. What is relevant is what Sarah experiences, not some supposed external, objective event/existence independent of experience. The realm of experience we are in and the details of our experience are all either kamma vipaka or the result of actions of others sharing the same realm of experience. Utimately, all our experience flows out of the volitional actions of ourself and of others. That's how I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14121 From: yuzhonghao Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 9:29am Subject: Re: Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Hi Rob, Jon, and all, > > Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement! Here is the focus for > our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above: > > A. Specific areas of interest: > 1/ the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, I think you might be interested in the discourse http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-044.html > 2/ the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas > themselves. > > B. Associated aspects: > 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of consciousness/Right > Concentration are in the progression of the path, > 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of > meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. > 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to > enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an intellectual > way) Regards, Victor 14122 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Hi, Victor (and all) - In a message dated 7/2/02 9:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > Hi Rob, Jon, and all, > > > > > Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement! Here is the > focus for > > our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above: > > > > A. Specific areas of interest: > > 1/ the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, > > > > > > I think you might be interested in the discourse > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-044.html > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well *I* certainly find it interesting!! ;-)) [Also, the Anupada (sp?) Sutta describing the approach to complete enlightenment followed by Sariputta, Captain of the Dhamma, is interesting reading, as is, for example, the standard description of the Buddha's own attainment of complete enlightenment via the first 4 jhanas.] ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > 2/ the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas > > themselves. > > > > B. Associated aspects: > > 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of > consciousness/Right > > Concentration are in the progression of the path, > > 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of > > meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. > > 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to > > enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an > intellectual > > way) > > > > Regards, > Victor > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14123 From: sukinderpal Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 10:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Nina, Howard and all, Taking advantage of your invitation for all to butt in Nina,(I like the idea too). However I hope I do not spoil the atmosphere with some uneducated criticism. I too was once attracted to the Goenka retreats, but in my case it was not so much to any result but to the promise of result in the future. At that time I did not know it, but now what I see is that we were supposed to go to learn to observe rise and fall of dhamma (intimations at first, but finally to be able to observe actual dhammas). We were never told about the difference between concepts and realities. Hence we had no idea about the added baggage we took with us to the retreat, about the idea of retreat itself. 1.There was the goal and expectation for it. 2.The planning before with regard to what we leave behind ie. the things we do daily in the conventional world. 3.The going to the retreat and what was to be done the first day, the days in between, and the last day. 4.Noble silence, doing this and this, no doing that and that. 5.Indoctrination ( as far as beginers are concerned, who are ready and willing to accept anything from an authority),with regard sitting posture, sitting time, walking meditation etc. 6.A very strong atta sanna is reinforced and we are never aware of this. We mistake sitting, standing, lying down postures to be in a way, real. 7.Implied that you are not to indulge in entertainment, yet you hear Goenka recite in pali in a singing tone and can get hooked to the pleasant voice. 8.Metta meditation, the idea about its use and the timing( at the end of the retreat). 9.Books by Goenka and his students are sold at the end of the retreat and you are indirectly discouraged to read anyone else. 10.To take all this back into daily life and follow the pattern for the rest of your life! And we were supposed to understand reality from the stand point of our peculiar accumulations. But we end up becoming like automatons. I'm not saying that all are, I'm sure you Howard are not, but I'm just critical about the concept of the retreat itself. I am tempted to conclude that in the scale that all this is done, the number of people being introduced to Buddhism and ultimately coming to have a better understanding of its real purpose is enough to not take note of the others who end up with the wrong understanding of it. But I don't think this is necessarily the case. Those who do come to have the right understanding,( only newly got introduced to buddhism) and who finally come to a more wiser approach are very small (insignificant rather). And I think, had they the seed for right understanding, they would have anyway. All in all I think the effect is in some way similar to some religious sects around which communities are formed, such as the Radhasoamis and the Rajnishis( not this extreme but some resemblance :-)). The only really positive aspect of Goenkas contribution to the Buddhist world that I see, is the translations of the Tipitaka he has undertaken to do. I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I believe that I must have some:). So what do you say Howard? Best wishes, Sukin. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard, Goggy, Shin and all, > Thank you Howard for your patience answering my questions. No need to answer > all, many of my questions are more exclamations! For a long time I was > wondering what motivated people to go to centers for intensive meditation, I > really try to understand them. You described the atmosphere in such a center > by your answers. Goggy explained that some people need a tranquillizer (in > the right sense, by way of samatha), they are so restless and cannot even > think of paramattha dhammas. I really see his point. Is there no other way > to help them? We could speak about their problems, and show them that these > are just dhammas, arising because of conditions, beyond control. We could > speak about paramattha dhammas without mentioning any names, couldn't we? > Another matter is that people are so impressed by the teacher who is so > kind, calm, understanding. But, as A. Sujin often said, it is not the person > who counts, it is the Dhamma and we have to check this *ourselves*. How much > clinging is there to a person? This can blind us. When we have piti and > somanassa (rapture and happy feeling) how much clinging is there? A good > friend is important, but, as A. Sujin said, it is the Dhamma that is your > good friend. It is difficult not to cling to people, whenever we like > someone, find him or her sympathetic, there is already clinging. Anybody who > can help us to have more understanding of the teachings is our good friend. > I had to learn this in the course of years, now I appreciate many good > friends who give me good reminders. Lodewijk said, that it is excellent what > Shin is doing now and I understand her so well. She sees that clinging to a > teacher is no good, that we have to check the teachings ourselves. Lodewijk > reminded me that the Buddha said, take Dhamma as your island, as your > refuge. We then read that this means developing satipatthana. It is > difficult to detect clinging, to persons, to our progress. Lack of progress > may be a motive to go to centers. And then, noticing progress because of > this may be a motive. I am concerned that people may not check this: is this > progress they notice not merely in their thoughts? Does it matter to be able > to notice progress? If it matters to us we may neglect again the dhamma now. > This is very important: how much understanding is there of nama and rupa > now? Are they different from each other? That is the first thing that has to > be known. If we skip the first stage of insight the next ones cannot follow, > and wrong view cannot be eradicated. People want so much to have less lobha, > dosa, and moha, but first wrong view has to be eradicated. Otherwise, no > way. > > Howard's suttas: I select "Living by Dhamma", about the monk who masters > Dhamma, repeats itthinks about it, but neglects to go apart and devotes > himself to calm. Ekiibhaava.m vissajjeti, gives himself to being alone. The > sutta ends with: see these tree roots, meditate. Jhaayathaa. The Buddha > spoke to monks, they should not chat in the villages. Meditate: as discussed > before, this has two meanings, I shall repeat it for those who are new. The > Co. to this sutta explains that the roots of trees means, places which are > free of people. It states: examining closely the object, namely the thirtyeight objects (of samatha) > and examine closely the khandhas, ayatanas, etc. , by seeing them as > impermanent, etc., by realizing the characteristics, lakkhana. He explains > it as develop samatha and vipassana.> > Thus, there are two kinds of jhana: aramanupanijjhaana (contemplation of the > objects of samatha) and lakkhanupanijjhaana (contemplation of the > characteristics of impermanence, etc.) > Before, we discussed that samatha and vipassana are developed both, that > jhana is most difficult and not for everybody, that even those who attain > jhana must also develop vipassana in order to realize enlightenment. > For those who like Pali: > Here is the text about jhaana I referred to some months ago: > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi > (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito > (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca > vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati > maapamajjittha (do not be neglectful, do not be slothful). > > The other sutta next time. To conclude, I quote: > As Jon wrote to Lisa, > doubt disagree with me on), even if there is no kusala (and a lot of > akusala), it also matters not. Much more important is to see whatever > appears for what it is. It's good to recognise the true nature of one's > mental state, and ruing one's lack of kusala is just more akusala!> > > It strikes me how different accumulations of different people are. Some, > when reading this may have aversion, but I feel piti and somanassa, I feel > as if Jon hands me a present. Wonderful, I need to be reminded that akusala > does not matter, that it is much more important to see whatever appears for > what it is. I know in theory, but I keep on forgetting. > Best wishes > Nina. > > op 30-06-2002 17:52 schreef Howard op Howard: > (I did not paste all): > As far as what is experienced during formal meditation is concerned, > > well, this is a bit like trying to describe ice cream to those who may have > > tried milk but no dessert. ;-) It really needs to be directly experienced. > > As far as accumulations are concerned, well, it seems to me that we > > can make all sorts of guesses and assumptions about what might or might not > > be our "accumulations", but, in fact, we don't know. I do know that again and > > again the Buddha instructed his followers to find "roots of trees" etc and to > > meditate. I can attest first hand as to the difference in intensity there is > > of concentration, mindfulness, and ease of detailed, direct investigation > > between formal meditation (if pursued with regularity) and a practice of > > moment-to-moment mindfulness during ordinary activity. I strongly recommend > > both.... > > > One more point about retreats: They are helpful from time to time, but > > they are *not* the cornerstone of a practice. The cornerstone is a daily, > > regular practice of one's own. Meditation is always available. The breath, > > sensations, feelings, thoughts, inclinations - all there, always available > > for investigation, both during "ordinary" moments, and, more clearly and > > powerfully, during formal practice. The joy of the Dhamma is enlivened by the > > sustenance obtained from regular, formal practice. The study and the practice > > support each other. Each is impoverished by the absence of the other. > Howard. 14124 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sukin - At the end of this post you write: "I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I believe that I must have some:). So what do you say Howard?" Well, there is not much for me to say. I suppose, as some are accustomed to saying, it must be a matter of "accumulations". My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever. In any case, there is no inclination felt to engage in a debate on this. How you reacted is how you reacted. It's that simple. C'est la vie, and vive la difference! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/2/02 10:37:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > > Dear Nina, Howard and all, > Taking advantage of your invitation for all to butt in Nina,(I like > the idea too). However I hope I do not spoil the atmosphere with > some uneducated criticism. > I too was once attracted to the Goenka retreats, but in my case it > was not so much to any result but to the promise of result in the > future. > At that time I did not know it, but now what I see is that we were > supposed to go to learn to observe rise and fall of dhamma > (intimations at first, but finally to be able to observe actual > dhammas). We were never told about the difference between concepts > and realities. Hence we had no idea about the added baggage we took > with us to the retreat, about the idea of retreat itself. > > 1.There was the goal and expectation for it. > 2.The planning before with regard to what we leave behind ie. the > things we do daily in the conventional world. > 3.The going to the retreat and what was to be done the first day, > the days in between, and the last day. > 4.Noble silence, doing this and this, no doing that and that. > 5.Indoctrination ( as far as beginers are concerned, who are ready > and willing to accept anything from an authority),with regard > sitting posture, sitting time, walking meditation etc. > 6.A very strong atta sanna is reinforced and we are never aware of > this. We mistake sitting, standing, lying down postures to be > in a way, real. > 7.Implied that you are not to indulge in entertainment, yet you hear > Goenka recite in pali in a singing tone and can get hooked to the > pleasant voice. > 8.Metta meditation, the idea about its use and the timing( at the > end of the retreat). > 9.Books by Goenka and his students are sold at the end of the retreat > and you are indirectly discouraged to read anyone else. > 10.To take all this back into daily life and follow the pattern > for the rest of your life! > > > And we were supposed to understand reality from the stand point of > our peculiar accumulations. But we end up becoming like automatons. > I'm not saying that all are, I'm sure you Howard are not, but I'm > just critical about the concept of the retreat itself. > > I am tempted to conclude that in the scale that all this is done, > the number of people being introduced to Buddhism and ultimately > coming to have a better understanding of its real purpose is enough > to not take note of the others who end up with the wrong > understanding of it. But I don't think this is necessarily the case. > Those who do come to have the right understanding,( only newly got > introduced to buddhism) and who finally come to a more wiser > approach are very small (insignificant rather). And I think, had > they the seed for right understanding, they would have anyway. > All in all I think the effect is in some way similar to some > religious sects around which communities are formed, such as the > Radhasoamis and the Rajnishis( not this extreme but some > resemblance :-)). > The only really positive aspect of Goenkas contribution to the > Buddhist world that I see, is the translations of the Tipitaka he > has undertaken to do. > > I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I > believe that I must have some:). > So what do you say Howard? > > Best wishes, > Sukin. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14125 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Howard, I think the problem is that, according to the book (Sarah), there are no inherently undesired results to akusala javana. Maybe there are, however, unpleasant results. I've been reviewing Visuddhimagga and couldn't find anything such as 'this javana citta will produce this vipaka citta'. Sense consciousness just seems like an odd result to me. I wouldn't say that everything is kamma cause or kamma result. Kamma is pretty much an ethical, value based causal mechanism. Even though we can evaluate anything, that doesn't mean that that thing's existence depends on value. Plus there are 23 other conditional relations. On the other hand, kamma is intimately associated with sankhara and everything *is* sankhata. I don't think sakhara is quite the same as phenomenalism. It doesn't make sense to me to say all there is is experience. For one thing, its logic leads in the direction of making consciousness a kind of ultimate medium. If we have to have an ultimate medium, I would favor materiality. Abhidhamma is definitely dualistic, nama and rupa. Even psychologically it's dualistic: consciousness and object of consciousness. To translate the idea "supposed external, objective event/existence independent of experience" into paramattha dhamma lingo would suggest there is nothing outside the bhavanga 'stream'. If there were nothing outside it, nothing could interrupt it. I can see about a million flaws with my logic, but I'll leave it at that. back to you, Larry 14126 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Howard, Not that I want to take this discusion any further myself but just to clarify one point, You said;"My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever." I was just trying to analyze the situation from the standpoint of my views now, there was absolutely no such understanding at the time I was engaged in the practice. I would have been very much one of the hundreds of thousands who attend these retreats regularly. Had it not been for Rob K. directing me to dsg and K. Sujin I would probably still be a Goenka fan today;-). Best wishes, Sukin. Hi, Sukin - At the end of this post you write: "I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I believe that I must have some:). So what do you say Howard?" Well, there is not much for me to say. I suppose, as some are accustomed to saying, it must be a matter of "accumulations". My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever. In any case, there is no inclination felt to engage in a debate on this. How you reacted is how you reacted. It's that simple. C'est la vie, and vive la difference! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/2/02 10:37:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > > Dear Nina, Howard and all, > Taking advantage of your invitation for all to butt in Nina,(I like > the idea too). However I hope I do not spoil the atmosphere with > some uneducated criticism. > I too was once attracted to the Goenka retreats, but in my case it > was not so much to any result but to the promise of result in the > future. > At that time I did not know it, but now what I see is that we were > supposed to go to learn to observe rise and fall of dhamma > (intimations at first, but finally to be able to observe actual > dhammas). We were never told about the difference between concepts > and realities. Hence we had no idea about the added baggage we took > with us to the retreat, about the idea of retreat itself. > > 1.There was the goal and expectation for it. > 2.The planning before with regard to what we leave behind ie. the > things we do daily in the conventional world. > 3.The going to the retreat and what was to be done the first day, > the days in between, and the last day. > 4.Noble silence, doing this and this, no doing that and that. > 5.Indoctrination ( as far as beginers are concerned, who are ready > and willing to accept anything from an authority),with regard > sitting posture, sitting time, walking meditation etc. > 6.A very strong atta sanna is reinforced and we are never aware of > this. We mistake sitting, standing, lying down postures to be > in a way, real. > 7.Implied that you are not to indulge in entertainment, yet you hear > Goenka recite in pali in a singing tone and can get hooked to the > pleasant voice. > 8.Metta meditation, the idea about its use and the timing( at the > end of the retreat). > 9.Books by Goenka and his students are sold at the end of the retreat > and you are indirectly discouraged to read anyone else. > 10.To take all this back into daily life and follow the pattern > for the rest of your life! > > > And we were supposed to understand reality from the stand point of > our peculiar accumulations. But we end up becoming like automatons. > I'm not saying that all are, I'm sure you Howard are not, but I'm > just critical about the concept of the retreat itself. > > I am tempted to conclude that in the scale that all this is done, > the number of people being introduced to Buddhism and ultimately > coming to have a better understanding of its real purpose is enough > to not take note of the others who end up with the wrong > understanding of it. But I don't think this is necessarily the case. > Those who do come to have the right understanding,( only newly got > introduced to buddhism) and who finally come to a more wiser > approach are very small (insignificant rather). And I think, had > they the seed for right understanding, they would have anyway. > All in all I think the effect is in some way similar to some > religious sects around which communities are formed, such as the > Radhasoamis and the Rajnishis( not this extreme but some > resemblance :-)). > The only really positive aspect of Goenkas contribution to the > Buddhist world that I see, is the translations of the Tipitaka he > has undertaken to do. > > I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I > believe that I must have some:). > So what do you say Howard? > > Best wishes, > Sukin. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14127 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 7/3/02 1:36:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > Dear Howard, > Not that I want to take this discusion any further myself but just to > clarify one point, > You said;"My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description > rings no > bell with me whatsoever." > I was just trying to analyze the situation from the standpoint of my views > now, there > was absolutely no such understanding at the time I was engaged in the > practice. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. I understand. ------------------------------------------------ > I would have been very much one of the hundreds of thousands who attend > these > retreats regularly. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I am not one if them. I attended exactly one of their retreats, about 4 or 5 years ago. It was one of the most worthwhile things I've ever done, leading to lasting insights and to a significant and life-altering "transfomation" in myself and my attitudes. Yet, I do not find myself emotionally tied to either Mr Goenka or his particular approach to teaching the practice of Dhamma. My respect and appreciation for Goenka and his work are enormous. But my love and adoration are reserved for the Buddha himself, and his Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------- Had it not been for Rob K. directing me to dsg and K. > > Sujin > I would probably still be a Goenka fan today;-). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see. Well, it is wonderful to obtain inspiration and saddha for the Dhamma from all good sources. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Best wishes, > Sukin. > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14128 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 3:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Howard, ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I am not one if them. I attended exactly one of their retreats, about 4 or 5 years ago. It was one of the most worthwhile things I've ever done, leading to lasting insights and to a significant and life-altering "transfomation" in myself and my attitudes. Yet, I do not find myself emotionally tied to either Mr Goenka or his particular approach to teaching the practice of Dhamma. My respect and appreciation for Goenka and his work are enormous. But my love and adoration are reserved for the Buddha himself, and his Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------- Well then is it possible that your experience has to do with your particular accumulations and not so much to do with the retreat?! I wanted to mention but forgot, that I hope that my views did not apply to you, Goggy and Erik, whose understandings I admire a lot and who all I am very fond of. That you fit into the retreat atmosphere and formal meditation as you would fit and feel comfortable in your own home surroundings !!? metta, Sukin. 14129 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:00pm Subject: language trap Dear All, Language can be confusing. I think I understand what I read - but everyday usage of words can unknowingly influence how I comprehend the Dhamma. I've begun reading "Conditions: an Outline of the 24 Paccaya" by Nina van Gorkom again. (I started last year but it was a little ambitious for me at that time.) Reading "Conditions" and reflecting on the difficulty I had when I last attempted it, I realised the very word 'condition' was, for me, flavoured by a meaning that distorted my understanding when it was used in the Teachings. "Condition" has two meanings for me in everyday life. One meaning is as a description of a 'permanent' situation - "She lives in a house that is in a terrible conditon, dilapidated, roof leaking and infested with insects.". The second meaning is an action I could choose to do - using a hair- care product "After shampooing, condition hair for a shiny manageable result". These two everyday meanings are strongly impressed upon my mind. I have to give myself a mental shake each time I see the word 'condition' in Dhamma-mode - if I am aware at the time of the 'language trap'. metta, Chris 14130 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:13pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Sarah, This is so helpful! >>> Much of the time when we are studying, there is ignorance, attachment to not only what is read or being ‘grasped’, but also to sights, sounds, smells and thoughts while we read. <<< Thanks. Hope you remind us(me), more often about these kind of things. My level of understanding is mostly on the "events" and "situations" level, I fail to see more subtle moments of moha, lobha and dosa. Hope your wrist is OK. I was just trying to use my machine with one hand as well. But in my case it was because i was holding a brownie in one hand :-))), but I quickly and greedily finished it;). metta, Sukin. 14131 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 7/3/02 3:56:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > > Hi, Howard, > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I am not one if them. I attended exactly one of their > retreats, > about 4 or 5 years ago. It was one of the most worthwhile things I've ever > done, leading to lasting insights and to a significant and life-altering > "transfomation" in myself and my attitudes. Yet, I do not find myself > emotionally tied to either Mr Goenka or his particular approach to teaching > the practice of Dhamma. My respect and appreciation for Goenka and his work > are enormous. But my love and adoration are reserved for the Buddha > himself, > and his Dhamma. > -------------------------------------------------- > > Well then is it possible that your experience has to do with your > particular > accumulations and not so much to do with the retreat?! > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly my own characteristics are critical conditions in how I respond to any situation/environment, and I have no doubt that what might be useful for me might not be so for another. That is, of course, common sense. My personal evaluation of the quality of the retreat, however, remains the highest. ---------------------------------------------------- I wanted to mention> > but forgot, that I hope that my views did not apply to you, Goggy and Erik, > whose understandings I admire a lot and who all I am very fond of. That you > fit into the retreat atmosphere and formal meditation as you would fit and > feel comfortable in your own home surroundings !!? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The environments are quite different, but both seem to be fine for me. (Thanks for the kind words, BTW - the same to you.) ----------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Sukin. > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14132 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 9:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Friends, I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe. They changed my life and I still continue to be influenced by them. Until then I was searching for a way to go in and observe what was happening. Mr. Goenka exposed me to the technique and process and I am very grateful to him for sharing the teaching. He also said, "develop awareness and develop wisdom." It was a kind of mantra for me. As I was young and new to the Dhamma I had little understanding coming from the west what that meant. I am older now but still feel I have little understanding of the Dhamma. I continue to embrace this teaching and am still open to it's meaning. This 'mantra' has even brought me to dsg. If I understand this correctly now awareness and wisdom just develop it has nothing to do with 'I'.??? I appreciate that Mr. Goenka said to observe without any judgement, identification and not to label what is being observed. Over time without adding to what is being observed words, ideas, concepts begin to fade. Of course, I observed and still observe words, ideas, concepts as they arise and at times can glimpse the emptiness of what they are and that they are not self. At times moments or gaps can be observed when there is no thinking / thoughts. When thoughts arise they can appear like faint whispers. Maybe this is due to not feeding the stories that arise or perhaps the space can be observed because of a slowing down of input. Again here I am probably deluded - any ideas about this???? I'm sure that much delusion must be mixed in with what 'I think-I am observing'. I continue with sitting practice - yes, I have some attachement to it somedays. When I see this I just observe without any judgement - when the judgement arises I just observe. I actually enjoy having a chunk of my day where I can retreat to the meditation room and just do nothing. This is easier said than done. I used to think that meditation was something that 'I did' and now I think it is a way of being or allowing what is to be present. I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who post such interesting and thought provoking posts. I am learning alot as I work my way through all the posts. With metta, Shakti Sukinder wrote: Dear Howard, Not that I want to take this discusion any further myself but just to clarify one point, You said;"My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever." I was just trying to analyze the situation from the standpoint of my views now, there was absolutely no such understanding at the time I was engaged in the practice. I would have been very much one of the hundreds of thousands who attend these retreats regularly. Had it not been for Rob K. directing me to dsg and K. Sujin I would probably still be a Goenka fan today;-). Best wishes, Sukin. Hi, Sukin - At the end of this post you write: "I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I believe that I must have some:). So what do you say Howard?" Well, there is not much for me to say. I suppose, as some are accustomed to saying, it must be a matter of "accumulations". My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever. In any case, there is no inclination felt to engage in a debate on this. How you reacted is how you reacted. It's that simple. C'est la vie, and vive la difference! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/2/02 10:37:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > > Dear Nina, Howard and all, > Taking advantage of your invitation for all to butt in Nina,(I like > the idea too). However I hope I do not spoil the atmosphere with > some uneducated criticism. > I too was once attracted to the Goenka retreats, but in my case it > was not so much to any result but to the promise of result in the > future. > At that time I did not know it, but now what I see is that we were > supposed to go to learn to observe rise and fall of dhamma > (intimations at first, but finally to be able to observe actual > dhammas). We were never told about the difference between concepts > and realities. Hence we had no idea about the added baggage we took > with us to the retreat, about the idea of retreat itself. > > 1.There was the goal and expectation for it. > 2.The planning before with regard to what we leave behind ie. the > things we do daily in the conventional world. > 3.The going to the retreat and what was to be done the first day, > the days in between, and the last day. > 4.Noble silence, doing this and this, no doing that and that. > 5.Indoctrination ( as far as beginers are concerned, who are ready > and willing to accept anything from an authority),with regard > sitting posture, sitting time, walking meditation etc. > 6.A very strong atta sanna is reinforced and we are never aware of > this. We mistake sitting, standing, lying down postures to be > in a way, real. > 7.Implied that you are not to indulge in entertainment, yet you hear > Goenka recite in pali in a singing tone and can get hooked to the > pleasant voice. > 8.Metta meditation, the idea about its use and the timing( at the > end of the retreat). > 9.Books by Goenka and his students are sold at the end of the retreat > and you are indirectly discouraged to read anyone else. > 10.To take all this back into daily life and follow the pattern > for the rest of your life! > > > And we were supposed to understand reality from the stand point of > our peculiar accumulations. But we end up becoming like automatons. > I'm not saying that all are, I'm sure you Howard are not, but I'm > just critical about the concept of the retreat itself. > > I am tempted to conclude that in the scale that all this is done, > the number of people being introduced to Buddhism and ultimately > coming to have a better understanding of its real purpose is enough > to not take note of the others who end up with the wrong > understanding of it. But I don't think this is necessarily the case. > Those who do come to have the right understanding,( only newly got > introduced to buddhism) and who finally come to a more wiser > approach are very small (insignificant rather). And I think, had > they the seed for right understanding, they would have anyway. > All in all I think the effect is in some way similar to some > religious sects around which communities are formed, such as the > Radhasoamis and the Rajnishis( not this extreme but some > resemblance :-)). > The only really positive aspect of Goenkas contribution to the > Buddhist world that I see, is the translations of the Tipitaka he > has undertaken to do. > > I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I > believe that I must have some:). > So what do you say Howard? > > Best wishes, > Sukin. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14133 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Goggy --- goglerr wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > In a message dated 7/1/02 3:27:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Jon writes: > > > > > I think you are saying that because the citta and its object > changes very rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This > perhaps forms the basis of the attraction to the 'slowing down' > approach.) > > G: I didn't mean the 'slowing down' approach from this aspect. I was > only refering to bodily movement (of course, on certain time!) Thanks for this clarification, and my apologies if I misunderstood you. > > > As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the > changing object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different > realities, each to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, > this does not mean awareness of all realities all the time, nor does > it mean awareness of but a single moment of a dhamma (these would be > things that only the likes of a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does > it mean necessarily awareness of different dhammas successively. > > > > If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it > doesn't matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other > moments of awareness. > _________________________________________________________ > G: Of course in our daily life, we cannot have sati to be the all the > time. As u said , and I agree, that there are isolated moments of > sati. And I personally too, try to mindful throughout day, and as I > experience isolated moments and I find that it's wonderful and have > much benefit. Didn't the Buddha said that sati is helpful everywhere? > > I see it that we are looking at different aspect and different > emphasis. On my sharing, I was focusing on 'formal meditation' - as > in 'formal sitting and walking'. I do them to whenever I have the > time, and I find that a succesion, a continouity of sati, for a > period of time, more profound and clearer dhamma are presented. I not > trying to compare with biasness but a matter of explanation and > understanding. They are from my personal experience that I share. Thanks for your sharing. I didn't mean to be critical of any aspect of your practice. I was simply trying to raise for general discussion some considerations about awareness and understanding, such as what awareness is, how it functions, how it manifests. I think this is useful, indeed necessary, in order to help clarify our ideas about the practice, some of which we may not have vocalised before (I quite often find this the case myself). I have no particular interest in anyone else's practice. What I'm interested in is discussing and analysing the texts to find out more about the true meaning of the words spoken by the Buddha, what might be called 'the theory of practice', so that one's practice has a proper theoretical basis. Please feel free to share some more with us anytime. Jon 14134 From: Num Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 7:03pm Subject: Patisambhidamagga 1 Dear Nina, Sarah and all. I am somewhat busy with my new job, new place and also getting used to Thai system. I went to the Foundation last week. It was a very nice experience. Meeting a lot of eager to learn and knowledgeable persons is a very nice feeling. I will try to make a brief note from the Patisambhidamagga(PTSM) session each week. Usully it goes around 5-10 pages a week. Any feedback or questions pls let me know. I can try to ask A.Supee. I may not have time to respond to all questions. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Let me give some introduction to PTSM. PTSM is one of the book in kuddhakanikaya, suttantapitaka. It's a discourse given by Ven. Sariputta. The contents of PTSM are about intricate detail of panna and nnana. Pati= specified, sam= well, bhida= panna which is well discriminated, magga=path. Patisambhidamagga = a clear comprehension and well-discriminated wisdom (panna) for each path. The panna in this level refers only to the wisdom of an ariya-person. There are 4 differences well-discriminated wisdoms (patisambhida): 1) Attha-patisambhida : a discriminating panna (a clear comprehension) in knowing dhammas , which are consequences or results(pala). 2) Dhamma-patisambhida: a discriminating panna in knowing dhammas, whicht are causes (hetu). 3) Nirutti-patisambhida: linguistic wisdom: a discriminating panna in knowing the meaning of words, and using of languages to call or explain dhamma. 4) Patibhanna-patisambhida: a well-rounded nnana in all 3 patisambhidas. In summary: Attha (pala) refers to 5 dhammas: 1.condtioned dhamma 2. Nibbana 3.Commentary 4. Vipakacitta, and 5. Kiriyacitta. Dhamma is contidion. Dhamma (hetu) refers to 1. causes which will bring consequences 2.ariyamagga 3. The discourse of the Buddha 4. Kusalacitta, and 5. Akusalacitta. The commentary of PTSM is Saddhammapakasini. In Thai tipitaka with commentary version, PTSM is book # 68&69 from the set of 91 books. There are matika and 3 kathas in PTSM. Book # 68/91 has 8 pages of matika and 1160 pages of commentary. The matika gives a list of 73 different level of nnana. The commentary has detail from various suttas and abhidhamma for each nnana. Book #69/91 consists of the 3 vaggas: mahavagga, yuganadthavagga (pairing dhamma which is smatha and vipassana), and pannavagga. (to be cont'.) Num 14135 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 11:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Victor and Howard Victor, thanks for this reference. This sutta is one of many that talk about the development of the path by one who has attained or is developing the jhanas (as are all the suttas in this particular section, Nos. 42-61 in my PTS edition). However, nothing here supports the idea that the attainment of the mundane jhanas is a *necesary prerequisite* for enlightenment, as I read it. Howard, likewise with the descriptions of attainment by the Buddha, Sariputta and many other eminent disciples. The fact that for these worthies tranquility and insight were joined together does not make one a requirement for the other -- it just shows that enlightenment *may* be based on/joined together with tranquility (see A. IV, 170 at p.114 of Numerical Discourses of the Buddha). I'd be interested to know how you see the many lay followers who attained various stages of enlightenment, for example, Upali (Upali Sutta, M. 56, p.477 of MLDB, at p.485). Jon --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Victor (and all) - > > In a message dated 7/2/02 9:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Victor writes: ... > > I think you might be interested in the discourse > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-044.html > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well *I* certainly find it interesting!! ;-)) [Also, the Anupada > (sp?) > Sutta describing the approach to complete enlightenment followed by > Sariputta, Captain of the Dhamma, is interesting reading, as is, for > example, > the standard description of the Buddha's own attainment of complete > enlightenment via the first 4 jhanas.] > ---------------------------------------------------- 14136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections , reminders Sarah Dear Sarah, I appreciated so much your good reminders interspersed with the quotes on Perfections. Nina op 02-07-2002 11:03 schreef sarahdhhk op <>: > > "Giving is stated at the beginning: (a) because it is common to > all beings, since even ordinary people practise giving; (b) > because it is the least fruitful; and (c) because it is the easiest to > practise." > ***** > Hmm, `..easiest to practise'. Pause for thought: how many > opportunities do we pass up in a day for giving of one kind or > another, even though we know life is so very short (in theory)? If > this is the easiest, no wonder the other paramis don't come > easily... > > What I've really been reflecting on is the characteristic of dana > (generosity) as being without attachment or expectation. We read > in the same text: > 14137 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:15am Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no. 3 Perfections, Ch 2, no. 3 The gift of freedom from fear is the condition for the perfection of morality, síla påramí, to develop; it is the condition for abstinence from wrong action and speech. If we do not forgive someone else, our conduct will not be that of a friend and thus kusala cannot develop. How could we then cross over to the other shore, namely, the eradication of defilements? This shows us that our consideration of the nature of kusala in daily life should be very refined. A person who develops paññå that is able to realize the four noble Truths, should know the nature of his citta; he should know when he is mentally ill and has no moral strength. If that is the case, how could he travel the extremely long road that is the eightfold Path? He should consider the nature of his citta, so that he can gain strength of citta by means of the perfections. He may know that the Path is satipaììhåna, the development of understanding of the characterstics of realities, but sati does not arise if the perfections are not strong enough for the realization of the four noble Truths. We all should develop the ten perfections with paññå, also when we practise generosity in our daily life. We should know the truth, we should know the difference between giving without panñå and giving with paññå, such as in the case of the Bodhisatta who gave with paññå. In this way we can consider and understand the perfection of truthfulness, sincerity for kusala, so that we can follow in the the footsteps of the Bodhisatta who developed the perfections during each life. He did not develop in one life just the perfection of morality, and in another life just the perfection of renunciation, but he developed all ten perfections, without exception, during each life. Now I shall deal with generosity that goes together with sincerity, with the perfection of truthfulness, and in this context we should reflect on the generosity of the Bodhisatta. The ³Paramattha Dípaní, the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² (Cariyåpitaka, of the Khuddhaka Nikåya) explains about three kinds of dåna pårami, perfection of generosity: the giving of material things (åmisadåna), the giving of fearlessness (abhayadåna) and the giving of the Dhamma (dhammadåna). We read about the giving of external objects: When the Great Man gives an external object, he gives whatever is needed to whom ever stands in need of it; and knowing by himself that someone is in need of something, he gives it even unasked, much more when asked. A person who is ready to give something useful to someone else when he sees that he is in need, has a refined understanding of the performance of kusala. As soon as he has seen that another person is in need of something, the citta accompanied by compassion arises, and he gives immediately, he does not wait to be asked. 14138 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 4:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Howard, Jon, and all, Thank you, Howard, for the reference. I don't want to argue with you, Jon, whether the attainment of jhanas is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. Right concentration is part of Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha pointed out the Path, and it is really up to us to follow it. Jon, instead of trying to prove or figure out whether attainment of jhana is necessary for enlightenment, I think it would be more beneficial to follow the Buddha's instruction to develop right concentration, along with other factors in the Path. You might be interested in the following discourses http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html Regards, Victor --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor and Howard > > Victor, thanks for this reference. > > This sutta is one of many that talk about the development of the path by > one who has attained or is developing the jhanas (as are all the suttas in > this particular section, Nos. 42-61 in my PTS edition). > > However, nothing here supports the idea that the attainment of the mundane > jhanas is a *necesary prerequisite* for enlightenment, as I read it. > > Howard, likewise with the descriptions of attainment by the Buddha, > Sariputta and many other eminent disciples. > > The fact that for these worthies tranquility and insight were joined > together does not make one a requirement for the other -- it just shows > that enlightenment *may* be based on/joined together with tranquility (see > A. IV, 170 at p.114 of Numerical Discourses of the Buddha). > > I'd be interested to know how you see the many lay followers who attained > various stages of enlightenment, for example, Upali (Upali Sutta, M. 56, > p.477 of MLDB, at p.485). > > Jon 14139 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi, Victor - In a message dated 7/3/02 4:37:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > Howard, Jon, and all, > > Thank you, Howard, for the reference. > > I don't want to argue with you, Jon, whether the attainment of jhanas > is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. Right concentration > is part of Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha pointed out the Path, > and it is really up to us to follow it. Jon, instead of trying to > prove or figure out whether attainment of jhana is necessary for > enlightenment, I think it would be more beneficial to follow the > Buddha's instruction to develop right concentration, along with other > factors in the Path. > > You might be interested in the following discourses > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html > > Regards, > Victor > ============================ I think your reply is very reasonable, Victor. That is to say, I agree! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14140 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what is discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara Nikaya (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically, what is said there is the following: Sense control -> Virtue -> Right concentration -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite pivotal. That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14141 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 7:20am Subject: ADL ch. 14 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 14 (3) It is useful to know that when akusala cittas arise on account of an object, there arise not just one, but seven akusala cittas in one process and this process of cittas can be followed by other processes with akusala javana-cittas. Each time we dislike something there are processes of cittas which experience the object, and in each of these processes there are seven akusala javana-cittas. Many akusala cittas may arise on account of something we dislike or are attached to. There is no self who can prevent akusala cittas from arising; when they arise in the sense-door process the votthapana-citta has determined the object already, and when they arise in the mind-door process the mano-dvaravajjana-citta has adverted to the object already. When the first javana-citta has arisen it has to be succeeded by the following javana-cittas. The first javana-citta conditions the second one and this again the following one; the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth javana-cittas are the same. Processes with kusala javana-cittas and processes with akusala javana-cittas can arise shortly one after the other. For instance, people have the intention to offer food to the monks. However, when one has bought the ingredients for the food one is going to offer, one may find the cost rather high. At that moment there may be cittas with stinginess and then the javana-cittas are akusala cittas. Thus we see that accumulated defilement can appear at any time when there are conditions, even if one has the intention to do a good deed. It is during the time of the javana-cittas that we accumulate wholesomeness or unwholesomeness. It is not possible to control javana-cittas, but knowing the conditions for wholesomeness will help us to have fewer akusala cittas. The Buddha, out of compassion, taught people the way to have less akusala. He encouraged them to perform all kinds of kusala, no matter whether it is dana (generosity) sila (morality) or bhavana (mental development). He taught the development of the wisdom which can eradicate all kinds of akusala. There are different degrees of panna. If panna merely knows what is kusala and what is akusala, it is not of the degree that it can eradicate akusala. When panna has not been developed to the degree of 'insight-wisdom', there is still a concept of self who cultivates wholesomeness and abstains from ill deeds. When there is the concept of self, defilements cannot be eradicated. The person who is not an ariyan may be able to observe the five precepts, but there is a difference between him and the ariyan who observes them. The non-ariyan may transgress them when there are conditions for it while for the ariyan there aren't any more conditions for transgressing them. Moreover, the ariyan who observes sila does not take the observing of sila for self any more, since he has eradicated the latent tendency towards wrong view. Thus his sila is purer. He is on the way leading to the eradication of all defilements. 14142 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 10:57am Subject: vipakacitta and its object Hi all, the following is taken from A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. The reason for hashing this out is to facilitate distinguishing between kamma result and kamma cause. At the end, I will have a question. Guide to par. 17, ch. IV: Sense objects are distinguished into three classes: the undesirable (anittha), the moderately desirable (ittha, also called itthamajjhatta, desirable-neutral), and the extremely desirable (ati-ittha). While the desirable object is thus subdivided into two, all undesirable objects are comprised within a single class called simply "the undesirable." According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, this distinction in the quality of objects pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself; it is not a variable determined by the individual temperment and preferences of the experiencer. The Sammohavinodani, the commentary to the Vibhanga, contends that when a person considers a desirable object to be undesirable, or an undesirable object to be desirable, he does so due to a perversion of perception (sannavipallasa). The object itself, however, remains inherently desirable or undesirable independently of the person's personal preferences. The Sammohavinodani states that the distinction between the intrinsically desirable and undesirable obtains by way of the average being (majjhima-satta): "It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants." Whether on a given occasion one experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of consciousness (vipakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face. Through the force of unwholesome kamma one encounters an undesirable object, and thus the resultant cittas in the cognitive process by which that object is cognized will be generated by the maturation of that unwholesome kamma. In this case the sense consciousness, reception, investigation, and registration cittas are necessarily unwholesome-resultants (akusalavipaka). The accompanying feeling is always equanimity (upekkha), except in the case of body-consciousness, which is accompanied by pain. Conversely, a desirable-neutral or a very desirable object is encountered through the force of wholesome kamma, and the resultant cittas in the cognitive process will be generated by the maturation of that wholesome kamma. In this case the same four resultant positions will be occupied by wholesome-resultants (kusalavipaka). These cittas will generally be accompanied by equanimity,except that body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasure and, in the experience of an extremely desirable object, investigation and registration are accompanied by joy. L: So, it seems I erred in thinking the object is not resultant. If I am reading this correctly, vipaka cittas are resultant in name only; that is to say, because of having a resultant object (though javana has the same object but it initiates a new kamma process) and also as a completion or 'maturation' of a particular kamma. The true result of kamma is the object. It isn't clear when sannavipallasa enters the picture, but that complication aside, I was wondering how we distinguish between anittha (undesirable) and dosa (aversion). This seems to be the key to distinguishing between vipaka citta and javana citta. Are there any etymological clues? Also there doesn't seem to be much discussion of feeling (vedana) in citta process but there is lots of feeling in experience. When does feeling come into the picture? thanks, Larry 14143 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (3) Hi guys, would it be correct to say thinking is always javana and never vipaka? thanks, Larry 14144 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Larry & All, <> wrote: > Hi Sarah, I'm still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the > different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems > to be the only one that we really notice. And if sense consciousness is > merely sense consciousness, that seems like a meager, wimpy kamma > result. If we have an akusala intention and the only result is sense > consciousness, what kind of a deal is that??? Where's the justice? the > retribution? the dukkha? the learning? Are there other kamma results of > javana cittas beside vipaka cittas? > > What happened to your wrist? Is it kamma vipaka? ..... Good questions. I don’t pretend to know any of the answers. I’ll just try to share a little more that I find helpful and also try to use the wrist sprain example for a little abhidhamma revision..hmm.. First of all, rupas in the body are also conditioned by kamma and I agree that sesnse consciousness is the most obvious of the vipaka cittas. If there was no seeing or hearing for even a few minutes, you might not think of these as ‘meager and wimpy’ results. Also, I think that by failing to be aware of them and of the clinging to the objects seen and heard, we fail to appreciate and learn about the inherent dukkha in all moments of consciousness including these. From Nina’s ‘Conditions’, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ we read: “Kamma is actually cetanå cetasika, volition. Cetanå arises with each citta and it can therefore be kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. Cetanå directs the associated dhammas and coordinates their tasks (Atthasåliní, Book I, Part IV, Ch I, 111). Cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta has a double function: it directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and it has the function of "willing" or activity in good and bad deeds. In this last function it is capable to produce the results of good and bad deeds later on....... The cetanå, volition or intention, which motivates a good or bad deed falls away, but since each citta conditions the next one in the cycle of birth and death, the force of cetanå is accumulated from moment to moment so that it can produce result later on. It conditions the result in the form of vipåkacitta and specific rúpas of the body by way of asynchronous kamma-condition.” ***** In ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’,by U Narada (PTS) I’m reading that there are 33 volitions associated with ‘faultless and faulty consciousnesses’ and with these its function is ‘to leave behind a force, like the seed or germ, which will produce resultant mental aggregates and kamma-produced matter in the future. We read that this force is present like the latent tendencies. “And just as the latter are not concepts, so also this special force of asynchronous kamma condition is not a concept. It is a special force of the ultimate realities.” It gives the example of someone who borrows money. The act is completed as soon as the money is borrowed, but their remains a debt to be repaid, either in instalments or in a lump sum. Only when it has been fully repaid is the responsibility removed. Kamma works in a similar way and as we know there are many other conditions and factors at work determining when and how the debt is paid. ..... Both Nina’s ‘Conditions’ and Nyantiloka’s Buddhist dictionary (under ‘karma’): http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html give very helpful summaries and details about the ripening of kamma, different kinds of kamma and so on. These have also been discussed on DSG and you may like to look at the Useful Posts under ‘kamma and vipaka’ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links ..... I think you mentioned in another post that you hadn’t seen reference to the sense cittas (consciousness) resulting from kamma (cetana arising with kusala or akusala cittas in the javana process) in the texts. I’ve just pulled out the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS). The abhidhamma texts and commentaries, like this one, go into a lot of precise detail, but let me just quote a very little (p.184): “In the description of the clause “with formations as condition consciousness”, as regards cakkhuvinnanam (“eye-consciousness”) and so on, eye-consciousness is twofold, namely, profitable resultant and unprofitable resultant. Likewise ear-........ 'Here it may be (asked) ‘But how is it to be known that this consciousness of the kind stated has formations as its condition?” Because there is no kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma. For this (consciousness) is a kamma-result and kamma-result does not arise in the absence of stored-up kamma. If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant would arise for all (kinds of beings); and they do not (so) arise. Thus should it be known that this consciousness has formations as its conditions.” ***** It then adds details of exactly which cittas are kusala vipaka and which are akusala vipaka. Later in the text (p.235) there is an interesting passage about accumulations, formations, kamma and the details of the javana process. (I’ll quote it another time perhaps, as I’m already pushing my luck with the wrist). Talking of the sprained wrist, let’s see if I can use it for a little revision: Through the body sense consciousness (kusala or akusala vipaka citta, result of kusala or akusala kamma), only temperature (i.e heat or cold), solidity (i.e hardness or softness) and wind (i.e. motion or pressure) are experienced. When the rupa contacts the body-sense (anywhere on the body), the body feeling is either painful or pleasant (no indifferent bodily feeling if you remember). So when it is painful or unpleasant, the citta and accompanying cetasikas are akusala vipaka. These feelings are different from the mental pleasant and unpleasant feelings accompanying lobha and dosa (in the javana process), but usually there is no sati and no distinguishing the dosa and its accompanying unpleasant feeling from the bodily feelings. An arahant still experiences bodily unpleasant feelings, but not the unpleasant mental feelings, although they are both namas. Earlier in ADL we read the passage about the splinter and how the Buddha felt the acute pain in the body but was not perturbed: “...Now at that time his foot was injured by a splinter. Sorely indeed did the Exalted One feel it, grievous the pains he suffered in the body, keen and sharp, acute, distressing and unwelcome. He truly bore them, mindful and deliberate, nor was he cast down...” (SN, 1, Sagatha-vagga, 11, The splinter) ***** Anyway, in my case, there have been some painful bodily feelings (result of kamma) from time to time, conditioned by the experience of various rupas. Often these experiences are a condition for dosa with unpleasant feeling, but not to a degree to commit any harsh speech or action. More noticable at times, however, is the thinking, the proliferations and stories about how it happened, remedies and so on. In other words, so often there is one brief moment of unpleasant bodily experience, followed by many moments of aversion and story-building on its account. Occasionally there may be awareness of the feeling or the rupa or the thinking and then there is no story. ..... Nina writes in ‘Conditions’: “ Throughout life kamma produces vipåkacittas arising in processes of cittas which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects. Seeing, for example, is vipåkacitta which experiences a pleasant or unpleasant visible object through the eyesense. It merely sees, it does not know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by way of vipåka-condition, they assist one another in "effortless quiet". The succeeding receiving-consciousness, sampaìicchana-citta , is also vipåkacitta, and this is succeeded by another vipåkacitta, the investigating-consciousness, santíraùa-citta. This is succeeded by the determining-consciousness, the votthapana-citta, which is a kiriyacitta. After that the javana-cittas arise which are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When the object is pleasant, lobha-múla-cittas are likely to arise and when the object is unpleasant, dosa-múla-cittas are likely to arise. There are seven javana-cittas arising, succeeding one another. Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another very rapidly and when paññå has not been developed we do not realize when there is vipåkacitta and when there is kusala citta or akusala citta. When we have an unpleasant experience such as an accident we keep on thinking of the concept of a situation or of an event we consider as "our vipåka" and we may wonder why this had to happen to us. We tend to forget that vipåkacitta is only one moment which falls away immediately....” ***** You ask about the justice. We have no idea which kamma will produce a result at which time, It depends on many factors and conditions. Only the Buddhas have full knowledge of the 'succession of kamma and its result in the twelve classes of kamma' and this 'knowledge is not shared by his disciples'. (Vism XIX, 17). In the Atthasalini (The Expositor PTS) p.88, we read a lot of detail about the diversity of the mind and its effects: “..beings have kamma as their property, they are its heirs, are originated by it, are its kin, are sheltered by it. Kamma divides beings into low and exalted. By this capacity to produce a diversity of effects (in destiny) in a manner detailed above is the diversity of the mind to be understood. For all variations are done by the mind only.” ***** It’s not necessary to know the details but when the vipassana nana which clearly understands kamma and result is realized, there is no more doubt aboutkamma and vipaka or about whether any self is involved: “there is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deed’s result; ....... ‘there is no kamma in result Nor does result exist in kamma; Though they are void of one another, There is no fruit without the kamma. ...... Phenomena alone flow on - Cause and componednt their condition” (Vism XIX,20) ***** Larry, I don’t feel qualified to really say much on this subject, but I’ve had fun pulling out all these texts and my wrist is doing better with the mouse out of its reach and with all these opportunities for wise reflection;-) Sarah ======= 14145 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 4:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Dear Howard, Victor and Jon, Hope I do not come in anyones way with my uninformed view points and guesses about a matter already much discussed by more knowledgable people than myself. I know nobody here would mind, so I will speak: Concentration, being a universal mental factor can have anything as object. In the javana process the object will be apprehended with or without sati and panna. This depends amongst other factors, upon our accumulated rt. view. To train the mind to fix upon an object if it does not happen effortlessly involves the risk of accumulating ignorance of sense impressions which would arise in other doorways(thanks to Sarah for this reminder -- I hope I've understood you rightly, Sarah!?) And if there is no sati and panna then it is wrong concentration. My guess is that in the Samahi Sutta which Victor just posted, the listeners already had a fairly high experience of satipatthana such that they could see what was going on at the moment. They didn't have to make a special effort to 'focus' on any particular ayatana- I don't think this is possible just based on theoretical knowledge alone. For them, at the moment of satipatthana, Buddhas advice to 'concentrate' simply would condition a deeper observation of the reality appearing now. In Howard's example below, what I understand is at the moment when there is sense control ( arisen by conditions), at that moment then there is an abstinence from breaking a precept. If the accumulations are favourable, this would lead to rt. concentration, and again if panna is strong, to the other parts. Whether all of this arises in just a flash or successively I am not sure at all. However, I see no room that it can be 'trained' to achieve, since panna has to be there from the very beginning. If our understanding of sila and sense control is weak, I don't think this can lead to rt.concentration. And I don't think concentration of the samma kind can be had simply by trying to control the senses and keeping strict sila. This can be done with little or no understanding. Lastly, satipatthana being the one and only way to the understanding of nama and rupa, even a jhana expert must first have had moments of satipatthana if he were to understand reality. My personal view is that jhana is not a tool for the understanding of nama and rupa. Even jhanacittas must be seen for what it is, namely anicca, dukkha and anatta. Just rambling, quite sure that I must have expressed some wrong understanding in there. Will wait and see. metta, Sukin. Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what is discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara Nikaya (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically, what is said there is the following: Sense control -> Virtue -> Right concentration -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite pivotal. That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14146 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 4:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Shakti, I wasn’t going to join in the ‘Goenka corner’, but after seeing the date in your post I can’t resist;-) ..... --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > Dear Friends, > I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe. ..... “Snap”......same for me and now you have to indulge a little nostalgia (Rob Ep, you’re my excuse as you always encourage the India Tales;-)) Hyderabad, June (?), 1975. I was on my way from Macleod Ganj, Dharmsala to Sri Lanka to become a nun and live in a forest temple. The train journey (3rd class) was around 100 hours and anyone who has travelled long distance, 3rd class in India, especially any female with long blond hair recovering from hepatitis, will appreciate why 10 days with Mr Goenka in Hyderabad en route would seem like a real retreat of peace & quiet. There was no hardship at all in foregoing a telephone, quiet reading opportunities, a bed, a private shower, fancy food or any other luxuries. I’d had none of these for a year already. Personal computers were unimaginable. ..... >They changed > my life and I still continue to be influenced by them. Until then I was > searching for a way to go in and observe what was happening. Mr. Goenka > exposed me to the technique and process and I am very grateful to him > for sharing the teaching. He also said, "develop awareness and develop > wisdom." It was a kind of mantra for me. ..... I had already spent 6 months with Munindra in B.Gaya, following the Mahasi style practice and discussing and reading dhamma to a limited extent with him. I had also met Mr Goenka with Munindra and so there were few surprises. I was curious about the retreat nonetheless and as I said, it was a welcome respite from rail travel. ..... > As I was young and new to the Dhamma I had little understanding coming > from the west what that meant. I am older now but still feel I have > little understanding of the Dhamma. I continue to embrace this teaching > and am still open to it's meaning. This 'mantra' has even brought me to > dsg. If I understand this correctly now awareness and wisdom just > develop it has nothing to do with 'I'.??? ..... Right. Where or what is this ‘I’??? ..... > I appreciate that Mr. Goenka said to observe without any judgement, > identification and not to label what is being observed. Over time > without adding to what is being observed words, ideas, concepts begin to > fade. Of course, I observed and still observe words, ideas, concepts as > they arise and at times can glimpse the emptiness of what they are and > that they are not self. At times moments or gaps can be observed when > there is no thinking / thoughts. When thoughts arise they can appear > like faint whispers. Maybe this is due to not feeding the stories that > arise or perhaps the space can be observed because of a slowing down of > input. Again here I am probably deluded - any ideas about this???? ..... Sometimes I think, that as Sukin was perhaps suggesting, we are so keen for results and keen to understand anicca and so on, that it’s easy to read more into our experiences than there really is. I don’t know in your case, but whenever there is focussing on particular sensations or looking for anicca or anatta or having the idea that ‘no thinking is better’, the attachment -- and sometimes the wrong view -- creeps in, I think. This can’t be blamed on Mr Goenka or any other teacher. The wrong views have been accumulated for many aeons and easily find opportunities. I remember the leg pain (no cushions and hours and hours of lotus sitting with no walking). I remember the very well-fed Indian ladies in beautiful saris who weren’t so bothered about following the rules as the small handful of keen young foreigners. They’d drift in and out, they had seats or cushions at the back and would often chat in corners. I remember there was no opportunity for any dhamma discussion and I remember the ‘magic’ of the experience of the sensations from head to toe. Now the latter reminds me very much of what I experience in my acupuncture treatments or Tai chi or Qi Gong. I see it as an unblocking of energy or ‘chi’ which is very good for the health and still a little magical. Mr Goenka explained how his migraines had been cured and I have no doubt about the efficacy for all sorts of health problems. I arranged a private ‘chat’ with him during the retreat. My question then was why particular sensations only were chosen to focus on initially. His answer was that in the beginning it’s too difficult to be aware of all the 4 Foundations and this way was easier as the sensations were most apparent. This didn’t make sense to me then and less still now. I also believe they were wrongly identified as vedanupassana, but it’s all a long time ago and there were no books by Mr Goenka then, as far as I know. So after I left the retreat, I continued with the Mahasi style meditation for another 6 months in Sri Lanka until it became apparent that this too was motivated by an idea of self. For a few years after I returned to England, like Christine has mentioned, I rather yearned (but found it impossible) to be part of a group or to be able to fit into the nearby Goenka household or to be able to appreciate the retreats as others did. Nina gave me a lot of support and those days are long, long gone. Actually, I feel tremendous relief that I don’t have any idea of a special time or place or technique for the practice and development of satipatthana. As Rob K has mentioned, life becomes a lot simpler and easier if one doesn’t cling to these situations as being more beneficial in some way. ..... > I'm sure that much delusion must be mixed in with what 'I think-I am > observing'. I continue with sitting practice - yes, I have some > attachement to it somedays. When I see this I just observe without any > judgement - when the judgement arises I just observe. I actually enjoy > having a chunk of my day where I can retreat to the meditation room and > just do nothing. This is easier said than done. I used to think that > meditation was something that 'I did' and now I think it is a way of > being or allowing what is to be present. ..... Shakti, I can appreciate this. I also value (and have a lot of attachment for) my quiet yoga time or daily swim, although I wouldn’t do wither if it weren’t for the health benefits. Is there any idea of ‘I’ observing? Is there any idea that there will be or should be more awareness whilst sitting quietly than at other times? Is there an idea that concentrating or focussing on an object is the way to develop sati? Is there any understanding now about paramattha dhammas? ..... > I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who post such > interesting and thought provoking posts. I am learning alot as I work > my way through all the posts. ..... It’s always very nice to hear from you Shakti and I look forward to more. Sarah ===== 14147 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sarah - VERY interesting post! Thank you. I was particularly interested in the following: ***************************** Mr Goenka explained how his migraines had been cured and I have no doubt about the efficacy for all sorts of health problems. I arranged a private ‘chat’ with him during the retreat. My question then was why particular sensations only were chosen to focus on initially. His answer was that in the beginning it’s too difficult to be aware of all the 4 Foundations and this way was easier as the sensations were most apparent. This didn’t make sense to me then and less still now. I also believe they were wrongly identified as vedanupassana, but it’s all a long time ago and there were no books by Mr Goenka then, as far as I know. ********************************** I also have puzzled over the emphasis on physical sensations. In current writings by Goenka et al, the claim seems to be that all elements of experience have an effect in that area, and it can serve as a kind of central focus point. To my mind, it is, in fact, a zeroing in on a limited area of experience, albeit an important one, and one via which enliughtenment factors can develop. I also question whether this practice actually constitutes vedanupassana. I suspect it might be better described as a form of "internal" kayanupassana. On that issue, I have long been confused on the preceise meaning of 'vedana'. Sometimes it seems to mean, as with Goenka, bodily sensation perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but at other times it seems to mean the very experience of plesantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality itself, as opposed to the physical sensation. The suttas don't clarify this sufficiently for me. What about Abhidhamma? With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/4/02 4:51:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear Shakti, > > I wasn’t going to join in the ‘Goenka corner’, but after seeing the date > in your post I can’t resist;-) > ..... > --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > > I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe. > ..... > “Snapâ€......same for me and now you have to indulge a little nostalgia > (Rob Ep, you’re my excuse as you always encourage the India Tales;-)) > > Hyderabad, June (?), 1975. I was on my way from Macleod Ganj, Dharmsala to > Sri Lanka to become a nun and live in a forest temple. The train journey > (3rd class) was around 100 hours and anyone who has travelled long > distance, 3rd class in India, especially any female with long blond hair > recovering from hepatitis, will appreciate why 10 days with Mr Goenka in > Hyderabad en route would seem like a real retreat of peace & quiet. > > There was no hardship at all in foregoing a telephone, quiet reading > opportunities, a bed, a private shower, fancy food or any other luxuries. > I’d had none of these for a year already. Personal computers were > unimaginable. > ..... > >They changed > > my life and I still continue to be influenced by them. Until then I was > > searching for a way to go in and observe what was happening. Mr. Goenka > > exposed me to the technique and process and I am very grateful to him > > for sharing the teaching. He also said, "develop awareness and develop > > wisdom." It was a kind of mantra for me. > ..... > I had already spent 6 months with Munindra in B.Gaya, following the Mahasi > style practice and discussing and reading dhamma to a limited extent with > him. I had also met Mr Goenka with Munindra and so there were few > surprises. I was curious about the retreat nonetheless and as I said, it > was a welcome respite from rail travel. > ..... > > As I was young and new to the Dhamma I had little understanding coming > > from the west what that meant. I am older now but still feel I have > > little understanding of the Dhamma. I continue to embrace this teaching > > and am still open to it's meaning. This 'mantra' has even brought me to > > dsg. If I understand this correctly now awareness and wisdom just > > develop it has nothing to do with 'I'.??? > ..... > Right. Where or what is this ‘I’??? > ..... > > I appreciate that Mr. Goenka said to observe without any judgement, > > identification and not to label what is being observed. Over time > > without adding to what is being observed words, ideas, concepts begin to > > fade. Of course, I observed and still observe words, ideas, concepts as > > they arise and at times can glimpse the emptiness of what they are and > > that they are not self. At times moments or gaps can be observed when > > there is no thinking / thoughts. When thoughts arise they can appear > > like faint whispers. Maybe this is due to not feeding the stories that > > arise or perhaps the space can be observed because of a slowing down of > > input. Again here I am probably deluded - any ideas about this???? > ..... > Sometimes I think, that as Sukin was perhaps suggesting, we are so keen > for results and keen to understand anicca and so on, that it’s easy to > read more into our experiences than there really is. I don’t know in your > case, but whenever there is focussing on particular sensations or looking > for anicca or anatta or having the idea that ‘no thinking is better’, the > attachment -- and sometimes the wrong view -- creeps in, I think. This > can’t be blamed on Mr Goenka or any other teacher. The wrong views have > been accumulated for many aeons and easily find opportunities. > > I remember the leg pain (no cushions and hours and hours of lotus sitting > with no walking). I remember the very well-fed Indian ladies in beautiful > saris who weren’t so bothered about following the rules as the small > handful of keen young foreigners. They’d drift in and out, they had seats > or cushions at the back and would often chat in corners. I remember there > was no opportunity for any dhamma discussion and I remember the ‘magic’ of > the experience of the sensations from head to toe. Now the latter reminds > me very much of what I experience in my acupuncture treatments or Tai chi > or Qi Gong. I see it as an unblocking of energy or ‘chi’ which is very > good for the health and still a little magical. > > Mr Goenka explained how his migraines had been cured and I have no doubt > about the efficacy for all sorts of health problems. I arranged a private > ‘chat’ with him during the retreat. My question then was why particular > sensations only were chosen to focus on initially. His answer was that in > the beginning it’s too difficult to be aware of all the 4 Foundations and > this way was easier as the sensations were most apparent. This didn’t make > sense to me then and less still now. I also believe they were wrongly > identified as vedanupassana, but it’s all a long time ago and there were > no books by Mr Goenka then, as far as I know. > > So after I left the retreat, I continued with the Mahasi style meditation > for another 6 months in Sri Lanka until it became apparent that this too > was motivated by an idea of self. > > For a few years after I returned to England, like Christine has mentioned, > I rather yearned (but found it impossible) to be part of a group or to be > able to fit into the nearby Goenka household or to be able to appreciate > the retreats as others did. Nina gave me a lot of support and those days > are long, long gone. > > Actually, I feel tremendous relief that I don’t have any idea of a special > time or place or technique for the practice and development of > satipatthana. As Rob K has mentioned, life becomes a lot simpler and > easier if one doesn’t cling to these situations as being more beneficial > in some way. > ..... > > I'm sure that much delusion must be mixed in with what 'I think-I am > > observing'. I continue with sitting practice - yes, I have some > > attachement to it somedays. When I see this I just observe without any > > judgement - when the judgement arises I just observe. I actually enjoy > > having a chunk of my day where I can retreat to the meditation room and > > just do nothing. This is easier said than done. I used to think that > > meditation was something that 'I did' and now I think it is a way of > > being or allowing what is to be present. > ..... > Shakti, I can appreciate this. I also value (and have a lot of attachment > for) my quiet yoga time or daily swim, although I wouldn’t do wither if it > weren’t for the health benefits. Is there any idea of ‘I’ observing? Is > there any idea that there will be or should be more awareness whilst > sitting quietly than at other times? Is there an idea that concentrating > or focussing on an object is the way to develop sati? Is there any > understanding now about paramattha dhammas? > ..... > > I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who post such > > interesting and thought provoking posts. I am learning alot as I work > > my way through all the posts. > ..... > It’s always very nice to hear from you Shakti and I look forward to more. > > Sarah > ===== > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14148 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 5:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Sarah, Yes I've been thinking these past few months about how we create goals and expectations and end up being directed by them. Even to differentiate and place value upon the importance of kusala over akusala can sometimes when taken as a 'desired' state can cause us to ignore and disregard what is actually being experienced, as Jon reminded us in his post to Lisa. Also I was thinking this morning, about our deep-seated tendency to explain the stories of our lives in terms of causes. And because we have so little understanding about the complexity of conditions, we so easily attribute certain results to certain 'particular' cause which may in fact not be a major cause at all. Anyway all this I think, is due to thinking as I do, 'about' dhamma and not understanding the moments themselves. Best wishes, Sukin. Sarah: ..... Sometimes I think, that as Sukin was perhaps suggesting, we are so keen for results and keen to understand anicca and so on, that it’s easy to read more into our experiences than there really is. I don’t know in your case, but whenever there is focussing on particular sensations or looking for anicca or anatta or having the idea that ‘no thinking is better’, the attachment -- and sometimes the wrong view -- creeps in, I think. This can’t be blamed on Mr Goenka or any other teacher. The wrong views have been accumulated for many aeons and easily find opportunities. 14149 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 2:45pm Subject: Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, all - Having made a few references from time to time of how phenomenalism provides me with a helpful conceptual platform for viewing the Dhamma, I decided to post a copy of the Kalakarama Sutta, from the Book of Fours in the Anguttara Nikaya. To me, it is the premier example of "Buddhist phenomenalism" (with the Bahiya Sutta taking the silver medal). The following is a tranlation I found on the net. [An entire booklet dvoted to a study of this sutta is Magic of the Mind, by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda.] The sutta follows (The bracketed material is *not* part of the sutta, but was added by the person who provided the web article from which this was taken): ************************** The Kalakarama Sutta. [The Setting.] At one time the Exalted One was staying in Saketa in Kalaka's monastery. There the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." "Revered Sir," replied those monks in assent. [As a Vedic or Greek god would talk, declaring omniscience,] the Exalted One said: "Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and humans--whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind--all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever in the world . . . of gods and humans, -- whatsoever is seen, . . . by the mind, -- that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. [Now he denies alternatives to be construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of Fours.] If I were to say: `Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and humans--whatsoever is seen ... by the mind--all that I do not know'--it would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I both know it and know it not' -- that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I neither know it nor am ignorant of it' --it would be a fault in me. [The Buddha now declares how one uses the senses while avoiding the `apprehender' and the`apprehended'.] Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an `unseen', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-seeing', he does not conceive about a seer. He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of `an unheard', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-hearing', he does not conceive about a hearer. He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; he does not conceive of a`thing-worth-sensing', he does not conceive about one who senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-cognizing', he does not conceive about one who cognizes. Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'. Moreover, than he who is `Such', there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare."[Now verses on how ordinary persons use their senses, sometimes called `the fantasy of normalcy'.] Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], whereon humans are hooked, impaled."I know, I see, `tis verily so"--no such clinging for the Tathagatas. ******************************** For comparison purposes, I also post here the Bahiya Sutta, copied from ATI: ******************************** Udana I.10 Bahiya Sutta About Bahiya Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was living in Supparaka by the seashore. He was worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage -- a recipient of robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medical requisites for the sick. Then, when he was alone in seclusion, this line of thinking arose to his awareness: "Now, of those who in this world are arahants or have entered the path of arahantship, am I one?" Then a devata who had once been a blood relative of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth -- compassionate, desiring his welfare, knowing with her own awareness the line of thinking that had arisen in his awareness -- went to where he was staying and on arrival said to him: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship." "But who, living in this world with its devas, is an arahant or has entered the path to arahantship?" "Bahiya, there is a city in the northern country named Savatthi. The Blessed One -- an arahant, rightly self-awakened -- is living there now. He is truly an arahant and he teaches the Dhamma that leads to arahantship. " Then Bahiya, deeply chastened by the devata, left Supparaka right then and, in the space of one day and night, went all the way to where the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking meditation in the open air. He went to them and, on arrival, said, "Where, venerable sirs, is the Blessed One staying -- the arahant, right self-awakened? We want to see him." "He has gone into the town for alms." Then Bahiya, hurriedly leaving Jeta's Grove and entering Savatthi, saw the Blessed One going for alms in Savatthi -- calm, calming, his senses at peace, his mind at peace, tranquil and poised in the ultimate sense, accomplished, trained, guarded, his senses restrained, a Great One (naga). Seeing him, he approached the Blessed One and, on reaching him, threw himself down, with his head at the Blessed One's feet, and said, "Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A second time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." A second time, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A third time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance. Having exhorted Bahiya of the Bark-cloth with this brief explanation of the Dhamma, the Blessed One left. Now, not long after the Blessed One's departure, Bahiya -- attacked by a cow with a calf -- lost his life. Then the Blessed One, having gone for alms in Savatthi, after the meal, returning from his alms round with a large number of monks, saw that Bahiya had died. On seeing him, he said to the monks, "Take Bahiya's body and, placing it on a litter and carrying it away, cremate it and build him a memorial. Your companion in the holy life has died." "As you say, lord," the monks replied. After placing Bahiya's body on a litter, carrying it off, cremating it, and building him a memorial, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to him, "Bahiya's body has been cremated, lord, and his memorial has been built. What is his destination? What is his future state?" "Monks, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was wise. He practiced the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma and did not pester me with issues related to the Dhamma. Bahiya of the Bark-cloth, monks, is totally unbound." Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: > Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing: > There the stars do not shine, > the sun is not visible, > the moon does not appear, > darkness is not found. > And when a sage, > a brahman through sagacity, > has known [this] for himself, > then from form & formless, > from bliss & pain, > he is freed. ********************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14150 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Nina Dear Nina, Apologies for the delay in responding. Thank you very much for the explanation of Patichcha Samuppada. Dhamma points which I was impressed: The boiling down of everything to paramaththa dhamma. and how much we ignore it. I mean we all know that every thing is citta, chetacika, rupa and nirvana. But the discussion showed that how much we ignore it and are stuck in concepts and worring unnecessarily. And I got a chance to know that I how little understanding on the Dhamma I have. I would realy like to attend an Abi Dhamma class by K. Sujin. And I am so happy for your concern... Take care, ~with meththa ranil 14151 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 11:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi Howards, Thank you, Howard, for the reference. Regards, Victor --- Howard wrote: > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - > > It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what is > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara Nikaya > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically, what > is said there is the following: > > Sense control > -> > Virtue > -> > Right concentration > -> > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > -> > Revulsion and dispassion > -> > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite pivotal. > That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. > > With metta, > Howard 14152 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Dear Howard, Thank you very very much for posting this sutta. I have wondered many times what Buddhist phenomenalism is and now thru your kind efforts I have some reference. I am wondering why the Buddha made him wait for the Dhamma while he was on alms? With metta, shakti Howard wrote: Hi, all - Having made a few references from time to time of how phenomenalism provides me with a helpful conceptual platform for viewing the Dhamma, I decided to post a copy of the Kalakarama Sutta, from the Book of Fours in the Anguttara Nikaya. To me, it is the premier example of "Buddhist phenomenalism" (with the Bahiya Sutta taking the silver medal). The following is a tranlation I found on the net. [An entire booklet dvoted to a study of this sutta is Magic of the Mind, by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda.] The sutta follows (The bracketed material is *not* part of the sutta, but was added by the person who provided the web article from which this was taken): ************************** The Kalakarama Sutta. [The Setting.] At one time the Exalted One was staying in Saketa in Kalaka's monastery. There the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." "Revered Sir," replied those monks in assent. [As a Vedic or Greek god would talk, declaring omniscience,] the Exalted One said: "Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and humans--whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind--all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever in the world . . . of gods and humans, -- whatsoever is seen, . . . by the mind, -- that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. [Now he denies alternatives to be construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of Fours.] If I were to say: `Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and humans--whatsoever is seen ... by the mind--all that I do not know'--it would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I both know it and know it not' -- that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I neither know it nor am ignorant of it' --it would be a fault in me. [The Buddha now declares how one uses the senses while avoiding the `apprehender' and the`apprehended'.] Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an `unseen', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-seeing', he does not conceive about a seer. He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of `an unheard', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-hearing', he does not conceive about a hearer. He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; he does not conceive of a`thing-worth-sensing', he does not conceive about one who senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-cognizing', he does not conceive about one who cognizes. Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'. Moreover, than he who is `Such', there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare."[Now verses on how ordinary persons use their senses, sometimes called `the fantasy of normalcy'.] Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], whereon humans are hooked, impaled."I know, I see, `tis verily so"--no such clinging for the Tathagatas. ******************************** For comparison purposes, I also post here the Bahiya Sutta, copied from ATI: ******************************** Udana I.10 Bahiya Sutta About Bahiya Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was living in Supparaka by the seashore. He was worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage -- a recipient of robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medical requisites for the sick. Then, when he was alone in seclusion, this line of thinking arose to his awareness: "Now, of those who in this world are arahants or have entered the path of arahantship, am I one?" Then a devata who had once been a blood relative of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth -- compassionate, desiring his welfare, knowing with her own awareness the line of thinking that had arisen in his awareness -- went to where he was staying and on arrival said to him: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship." "But who, living in this world with its devas, is an arahant or has entered the path to arahantship?" "Bahiya, there is a city in the northern country named Savatthi. The Blessed One -- an arahant, rightly self-awakened -- is living there now. He is truly an arahant and he teaches the Dhamma that leads to arahantship. " Then Bahiya, deeply chastened by the devata, left Supparaka right then and, in the space of one day and night, went all the way to where the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking meditation in the open air. He went to them and, on arrival, said, "Where, venerable sirs, is the Blessed One staying -- the arahant, right self-awakened? We want to see him." "He has gone into the town for alms." Then Bahiya, hurriedly leaving Jeta's Grove and entering Savatthi, saw the Blessed One going for alms in Savatthi -- calm, calming, his senses at peace, his mind at peace, tranquil and poised in the ultimate sense, accomplished, trained, guarded, his senses restrained, a Great One (naga). Seeing him, he approached the Blessed One and, on reaching him, threw himself down, with his head at the Blessed One's feet, and said, "Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A second time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." A second time, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A third time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance. Having exhorted Bahiya of the Bark-cloth with this brief explanation of the Dhamma, the Blessed One left. Now, not long after the Blessed One's departure, Bahiya -- attacked by a cow with a calf -- lost his life. Then the Blessed One, having gone for alms in Savatthi, after the meal, returning from his alms round with a large number of monks, saw that Bahiya had died. On seeing him, he said to the monks, "Take Bahiya's body and, placing it on a litter and carrying it away, cremate it and build him a memorial. Your companion in the holy life has died." "As you say, lord," the monks replied. After placing Bahiya's body on a litter, carrying it off, cremating it, and building him a memorial, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to him, "Bahiya's body has been cremated, lord, and his memorial has been built. What is his destination? What is his future state?" "Monks, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was wise. He practiced the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma and did not pester me with issues related to the Dhamma. Bahiya of the Bark-cloth, monks, is totally unbound." Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: > Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing: > There the stars do not shine, > the sun is not visible, > the moon does not appear, > darkness is not found. > And when a sage, > a brahman through sagacity, > has known [this] for himself, > then from form & formless, > from bliss & pain, > he is freed. ********************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14153 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 7:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Shakti - In a message dated 7/4/02 11:36:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear Howard, > Thank you very very much for posting this sutta. I have wondered many times > what Buddhist phenomenalism is and now thru your kind efforts I have some > reference. > I am wondering why the Buddha made him wait for the Dhamma while he was on > alms? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I suppose that one reason might have been to teach patience. But more to the point, note that the Buddha replied after the 3rd request. This business of asking three times (three's a charm! ;-) was traditional. ---------------------------------------------------- > With metta, shakti > ========================= With metta, Howard > Howard wrote: Hi, all - > > Having made a few references from time to time of how phenomenalism > provides me with a helpful conceptual platform for viewing the Dhamma, I > decided to post a copy of the Kalakarama Sutta, from the Book of Fours in > the > Anguttara Nikaya. To me, it is the premier example of "Buddhist > phenomenalism" (with the Bahiya Sutta taking the silver medal). The > following > is a tranlation I found on the net. [An entire booklet dvoted to a study of > > this sutta is Magic of the Mind, by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda.] The sutta follows > (The bracketed material is *not* part of the sutta, but was added by the > person who provided the web article from which this was taken): > > ************************** > The Kalakarama Sutta. > [The Setting.] At one time the Exalted One was staying in Saketa in > Kalaka's > monastery. There the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." > "Revered Sir," replied those monks in assent. [As a Vedic or Greek god > would > talk, declaring omniscience,] the Exalted One said: "Monks, whatsoever in > the > world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of > recluses and brahmins, gods and humans--whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed > (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, > sought > after and pondered over by the mind--all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever > in > the world . . . of gods and humans, -- whatsoever is seen, . . . by the > mind, > -- that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but > the > Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. [Now he denies alternatives to > be > construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of > Fours.] > If I were to say: `Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and > humans--whatsoever is seen ... by the mind--all that I do not know'--it > would > be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I both know it and know it not' -- > > that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I neither know it > nor > am ignorant of it' --it would be a fault in me. [The Buddha now declares > how > one uses the senses while avoiding the `apprehender' and the`apprehended'.] > > Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from > > sight; he does not conceive of an `unseen', he does not conceive of a > `thing-worth-seeing', he does not conceive about a seer. He does not > conceive > of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of `an > unheard', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-hearing', he does not > conceive about a hearer. He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as > apart from sensation; he does not conceive of a`thing-worth-sensing', he > does > not conceive about one who senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable > thing > as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-cognizing', > > he does not conceive about one who cognizes. Thus, monks, the Tathagata, > being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and > cognized, > is `Such'. Moreover, than he who is `Such', there is none other greater or > more excellent, I declare."[Now verses on how ordinary persons use their > senses, sometimes called `the fantasy of normalcy'.] Whatever is seen, > heard, > sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other folk. Midst those who are > > entrenched in their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. > This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], > whereon humans are hooked, impaled."I know, I see, `tis verily so"--no such > > clinging for the Tathagatas. > ******************************** > > For comparison purposes, I also post here the Bahiya Sutta, copied > from ATI: > > ******************************** > > Udana I.10 > > > > Bahiya Sutta > > > > About Bahiya > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. > Ireland > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Savatthi, > in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Bahiya of the > Bark-cloth was living in Supparaka by the seashore. He was worshipped, > revered, honored, venerated, given homage -- a recipient of robes, > almsfood, > lodgings, and medical requisites for the sick. Then, when he was alone in > seclusion, this line of thinking arose to his awareness: "Now, of those who > > in this world are arahants or have entered the path of arahantship, am I > one?" Then a devata who had once been a blood relative of Bahiya of the > Bark-cloth -- compassionate, desiring his welfare, knowing with her own > awareness the line of thinking that had arisen in his awareness -- went to > where he was staying and on arrival said to him: "You, Bahiya, are neither > an > arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have > the > practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of > arahantship." "But who, living in this world with its devas, is an arahant > or > has entered the path to arahantship?" "Bahiya, there is a city in the > northern country named Savatthi. The Blessed One -- an arahant, rightly > self-awakened -- is living there now. He is truly an arahant and he teaches > > the Dhamma that leads to arahantship. " Then Bahiya, deeply chastened by > the > devata, left Supparaka right then and, in the space of one day and night, > went all the way to where the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in > Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. At that time, a large number of > monks were doing walking meditation in the open air. He went to them and, > on > arrival, said, "Where, venerable sirs, is the Blessed One staying -- the > arahant, right self-awakened? We want to see him." "He has gone into the > town > for alms." Then Bahiya, hurriedly leaving Jeta's Grove and entering > Savatthi, > saw the Blessed One going for alms in Savatthi -- calm, calming, his senses > > at peace, his mind at peace, tranquil and poised in the ultimate sense, > accomplished, trained, guarded, his senses restrained, a Great One (naga). > Seeing him, he approached the Blessed One and, on reaching him, threw > himself > down, with his head at the Blessed One's feet, and said, "Teach me the > Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be > for > my long-term welfare and bliss." When this was said, the Blessed One said > to > him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A > second time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for > sure > what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there > > may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O > > One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." A second > time, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have > entered the town for alms." A third time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: > "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed > One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O > Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my > long-term welfare and bliss." "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself > thus: > In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the > heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In > reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train > > yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the > seen, > only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to > the > sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there > > is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is > > no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder > nor > between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Through hearing > this > brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bahiya of > > the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from the effluents through > > lack of clinging/sustenance. Having exhorted Bahiya of the Bark-cloth with > this brief explanation of the Dhamma, the Blessed One left. Now, not long > after the Blessed One's departure, Bahiya -- attacked by a cow with a calf > -- > lost his life. Then the Blessed One, having gone for alms in Savatthi, > after > the meal, returning from his alms round with a large number of monks, saw > that Bahiya had died. On seeing him, he said to the monks, "Take Bahiya's > body and, placing it on a litter and carrying it away, cremate it and build > > him a memorial. Your companion in the holy life has died." "As you say, > lord," the monks replied. After placing Bahiya's body on a litter, carrying > > it off, cremating it, and building him a memorial, they went to the Blessed > > One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they > were > sitting there, they said to him, "Bahiya's body has been cremated, lord, > and > his memorial has been built. What is his destination? What is his future > state?" "Monks, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was wise. He practiced the Dhamma > in > accordance with the Dhamma and did not pester me with issues related to the > > Dhamma. Bahiya of the Bark-cloth, monks, is totally unbound." Then, on > realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion > exclaimed: > > Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing: > > There the stars do not shine, > > the sun is not visible, > > the moon does not appear, > > darkness is not found. > > And when a sage, > > a brahman through sagacity, > > has known [this] for himself, > > then from form & formless, > > from bliss & pain, > > he is freed. > ********************************** > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14154 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 7:54pm Subject: A Minor Point Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Hi, Jon - In a recent post you asked: > Do the texts, for example, speak of > slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements' etc) > as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding? How does > noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that the > suttas say are to be known? The texts are the ultimate touchstone for > right or wrong view. We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or anyone > else's assurance on this. > ========================== I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts certainly do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from the Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking meditation in the open air." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14155 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 0:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Sarah, Thank you for sharing some of your Indian experiences. I always enjoy hearing such stories. I first sat with Mr. Goenka in Bodhgaya and then in Varanasi in 1974 or 75. Prior to that I met a student of his who told me about annapanasati so I did many months on breath awareness. I had no idea of what I was really doing - only the inclination to explore. When I finally sat w/Mr. Goenka and we began to explore body sensations I was amazed to find that in some areas of my body I had absolutely no awareness of sensation. At least I couldn't sense anything - not even pain seemed to be present in some areas. I wanted to do anything but watch - Mr. Goenka said just keep penetrating the area. Slowly I became aware of subtle sensations. As I look back on the experience - more explanation would have been better. Perhaps the experience would have been different. There was no awareness of hardness or instructions to be aware of this. In '74/75 Mr. Goenka too must have been new at teaching and I wonder if I would have heard more Abhidhamma if I would even have understood. I do know now that I am very grateful to have had all the experiences that I have had and that all of them have brought me to this moment. Every moment I am grateful to hear from all of you and have the opportunity to contemplate what is being said at dsg. Sarah, you asked below what is this'I'. I wrote, if I understand this correctly wisdom and awareness just develop they have nothing to do with 'I'. What I mean by this 'I' is the sense of me actually being in control of something here. Wisdom and awareness seem to develop when conditions are right. There is no I - I am only speaking conventionally. On another note, Mr Goenka will be here in Missoula, Montana (where I live) in a few days. He will pass thru Missoula as part of his North American tour where he will travel thru different parts of Canada and the USA. He will conduct a one day sit for old students and then that night give a public talk at the university of Montana. I will be sitting with about 50 other old students here. I will let you all know what that was like later next week. I have heard that he will be answering questions - so now maybe your opportunity. Any burning questions?????? With metta, shakti Sarah wrote: Dear Shakti, I wasn’t going to join in the ‘Goenka corner’, but after seeing the date in your post I can’t resist;-) ..... --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Friends, > I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe. ..... “Snap”......same for me and now you have to indulge a little nostalgia (Rob Ep, you’re my excuse as you always encourage the India Tales;-)) Hyderabad, June (?), 1975. I was on my way from Macleod Ganj, Dharmsala to Sri Lanka to become a nun and live in a forest temple. The train journey (3rd class) was around 100 hours and anyone who has travelled long distance, 3rd class in India, especially any female with long blond hair recovering from hepatitis, will appreciate why 10 days with Mr Goenka in Hyderabad en route would seem like a real retreat of peace & quiet. There was no hardship at all in foregoing a telephone, quiet reading opportunities, a bed, a private shower, fancy food or any other luxuries. I’d had none of these for a year already. Personal computers were unimaginable. ..... >They changed > my life and I still continue to be influenced by them. Until then I was > searching for a way to go in and observe what was happening. Mr. Goenka > exposed me to the technique and process and I am very grateful to him > for sharing the teaching. He also said, "develop awareness and develop > wisdom." It was a kind of mantra for me. ..... I had already spent 6 months with Munindra in B.Gaya, following the Mahasi style practice and discussing and reading dhamma to a limited extent with him. I had also met Mr Goenka with Munindra and so there were few surprises. I was curious about the retreat nonetheless and as I said, it was a welcome respite from rail travel. ..... > As I was young and new to the Dhamma I had little understanding coming > from the west what that meant. I am older now but still feel I have > little understanding of the Dhamma. I continue to embrace this teaching > and am still open to it's meaning. This 'mantra' has even brought me to > dsg. If I understand this correctly now awareness and wisdom just > develop it has nothing to do with 'I'.??? ..... Right. Where or what is this ‘I’??? ..... > I appreciate that Mr. Goenka said to observe without any judgement, > identification and not to label what is being observed. Over time > without adding to what is being observed words, ideas, concepts begin to > fade. Of course, I observed and still observe words, ideas, concepts as > they arise and at times can glimpse the emptiness of what they are and > that they are not self. At times moments or gaps can be observed when > there is no thinking / thoughts. When thoughts arise they can appear > like faint whispers. Maybe this is due to not feeding the stories that > arise or perhaps the space can be observed because of a slowing down of > input. Again here I am probably deluded - any ideas about this???? ..... Sometimes I think, that as Sukin was perhaps suggesting, we are so keen for results and keen to understand anicca and so on, that it’s easy to read more into our experiences than there really is. I don’t know in your case, but whenever there is focussing on particular sensations or looking for anicca or anatta or having the idea that ‘no thinking is better’, the attachment -- and sometimes the wrong view -- creeps in, I think. This can’t be blamed on Mr Goenka or any other teacher. The wrong views have been accumulated for many aeons and easily find opportunities. I remember the leg pain (no cushions and hours and hours of lotus sitting with no walking). I remember the very well-fed Indian ladies in beautiful saris who weren’t so bothered about following the rules as the small handful of keen young foreigners. They’d drift in and out, they had seats or cushions at the back and would often chat in corners. I remember there was no opportunity for any dhamma discussion and I remember the ‘magic’ of the experience of the sensations from head to toe. Now the latter reminds me very much of what I experience in my acupuncture treatments or Tai chi or Qi Gong. I see it as an unblocking of energy or ‘chi’ which is very good for the health and still a little magical. Mr Goenka explained how his migraines had been cured and I have no doubt about the efficacy for all sorts of health problems. I arranged a private ‘chat’ with him during the retreat. My question then was why particular sensations only were chosen to focus on initially. His answer was that in the beginning it’s too difficult to be aware of all the 4 Foundations and this way was easier as the sensations were most apparent. This didn’t make sense to me then and less still now. I also believe they were wrongly identified as vedanupassana, but it’s all a long time ago and there were no books by Mr Goenka then, as far as I know. So after I left the retreat, I continued with the Mahasi style meditation for another 6 months in Sri Lanka until it became apparent that this too was motivated by an idea of self. For a few years after I returned to England, like Christine has mentioned, I rather yearned (but found it impossible) to be part of a group or to be able to fit into the nearby Goenka household or to be able to appreciate the retreats as others did. Nina gave me a lot of support and those days are long, long gone. Actually, I feel tremendous relief that I don’t have any idea of a special time or place or technique for the practice and development of satipatthana. As Rob K has mentioned, life becomes a lot simpler and easier if one doesn’t cling to these situations as being more beneficial in some way. ..... > I'm sure that much delusion must be mixed in with what 'I think-I am > observing'. I continue with sitting practice - yes, I have some > attachement to it somedays. When I see this I just observe without any > judgement - when the judgement arises I just observe. I actually enjoy > having a chunk of my day where I can retreat to the meditation room and > just do nothing. This is easier said than done. I used to think that > meditation was something that 'I did' and now I think it is a way of > being or allowing what is to be present. ..... Shakti, I can appreciate this. I also value (and have a lot of attachment for) my quiet yoga time or daily swim, although I wouldn’t do wither if it weren’t for the health benefits. Is there any idea of ‘I’ observing? Is there any idea that there will be or should be more awareness whilst sitting quietly than at other times? Is there an idea that concentrating or focussing on an object is the way to develop sati? Is there any understanding now about paramattha dhammas? ..... > I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who post such > interesting and thought provoking posts. I am learning alot as I work > my way through all the posts. ..... It’s always very nice to hear from you Shakti and I look forward to more. Sarah ===== 14156 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 1, some remarks Dear Num, admirable that you still find time to help with this subject, going to the Foundation inspite of your new work situation. Anumodana. You give a word definition of the title, with the four discriminating knowledges. I always found it so difficult, no wonder. In the course of time there were still arahats with these four discriminations, and then there were arahats without these, and after that in this time there are no longer arahats in this world. Some references: The Buddhist Dictionnary, the Intro to the Path of Discrimination, The Book of Analysis and Dispeller of Delusion, I think (no time now to look it up), The Guide, Netti pakarana, has a lot about attha result and dhamma, cause, and see also Visuddhimagga. Moreover, they are mentioned in the Gradual Sayings and the Debates Discourse. However, this most difficult subject is not dealt with in the beginning of the Path of Discrimination, see Treatise XVI. I asked A. Supee in the bus in India, and he gave me a brief outline: The Buddha has the highest degree of these four, and this is a condition to contemplate the Buddha's wisdom. The four discr. of Sariputta are of a higher degree than those of the other excellent disciples. no. 1: attha:knowing the deep meaning of all subjects and aspects of the dhamma. no. 2: dhamma: the Buddha knew the causes and condiitons for everything, nothing excepted. All kammas and all vipakas. All condiitons, such as: the conditions for the sotapanna's sila, which are such that he would never kill, A. Supee said. no. 3: nirutti: the Buddha chose the right words adapted to the accumulations of the listeners. The Buddha had the highest degree of this, he knew so well whet a particular person could understand, when it was the right time for his enlightenment. no. 4: knowledge with regard to the first three, pa.tibhaana. This is the capability to answer all Dhamma questions. op 03-07-2002 17:03 schreef Num op Num: > > Let me give some introduction to PTSM. > There are 4 differences well-discriminated wisdoms (patisambhida): > 1) Attha-patisambhida : a discriminating panna (a clear comprehension) in > knowing dhammas , which are consequences or results(pala). > 2) Dhamma-patisambhida: a discriminating panna in knowing dhammas, whicht are > causes (hetu). > 3) Nirutti-patisambhida: linguistic wisdom: a discriminating panna in knowing > the meaning of words, and using of languages to call or explain dhamma. > 4) Patibhanna-patisambhida: a well-rounded nnana in all 3 patisambhidas. > > In summary: Attha (pala) refers to 5 dhammas: 1.condtioned dhamma 2. Nibbana > 3.Commentary 4. Vipakacitta, and 5. Kiriyacitta. Dhamma is contidion. Dhamma > (hetu) refers to 1. causes which will bring consequences 2.ariyamagga 3. The > discourse of the Buddha 4. Kusalacitta, and 5. Akusalacitta. > > > > PTSM is one of the book in kuddhakanikaya, suttantapitaka. It's a discourse > given by Ven. Sariputta. The contents of PTSM are about intricate detail of > panna and nnana. Pati= specified, sam= well, bhida= panna which is well > discriminated, magga=path. Patisambhidamagga = a clear comprehension and > well-discriminated wisdom (panna) for each path. The panna in this level > refers only to the wisdom of an ariya-person. Nina: From beginning to end this work deals with panna. It is impressive that in the very beginning it is said: the all should be directly known. This includes not only the five khandhas, but also the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. Suan said so well: all the Buddha taught is abhidhamma. I could add: all the Buddha taught is the development of right understanding of realities, because that is what abhidhamma is all about. Yes, also sila, not without panna, also samatha, not without panna. Num: Book #69/91 consists of the 3 vaggas: mahavagga, yuganadthavagga (pairing > dhamma which is smatha and vipassana), and pannavagga. Nina: Mahavagga, this is about sutta maya ~naana understanding through listening, and sila maya ~naana, knowledge consisting in sila, and, as A. Sujin said, this is the practice. Listening and practice. Here all degrees of sila are dealt with, as in the Visduddhimagga, up to lokuttara sila. (When we are going to study Visuddhimagga with Jon we should also study this chapter, also quoted by Vis.) Thus, it is all about the development of panna, not: first sila then samatha, then vipassana. The threepartite division of Vis is a question of system, it classifies under these three headings, that is all. Because when the Buddha teaches it is all about panna. The pairing of dhammas: samatha and vipassana. When samatha is dealt with: it is together with panna. It was a different matter outside the Buddha's teachings. With appreciation, looking forward to more, Nina. 14157 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no. 4 Perfections, Ch 2, no. 4 Further on we read in the Commentary: He gives only when there is something to be given. He does not trouble himself nor feel disturbed when at times he wishes to give but he does not have anything he can give. The Bodhisatta gives only when he has something he can give. We read: When there are things to be given he gives what people like to have, not what they do not want. When other people are in need of something, he gives it away, provided there is something to be given. We read: He does not give because he expects something in return. And when there is not enough to give sufficiently to all, he distributes evenly whatever can be shared. But he does not give things that lead to affliction for others, such as weapons, poisons and intoxicants. Nor does he give amusing things which are harmful and lead to negligence. And he does not give unsuitable food or drink to a person who is sick, even though that person might ask for it, and he does not give what is suitable beyond the proper measure. If we really want to help someone, such as a person who is ill, we need to reflect with compassion on the way we will give him assistance. We should not just give without any discrimination, but we should also know to what extent our gift is suitable and useful to a sick person. We should know in detail what is kusala, and we should be discriminative, not neglectful of kusala. Just as a doctor should precisely know the condition of a person who is ill and the dosage of medicaments to be taken that is suitable for each individual, evenso should we give with discrimination. The Commentary states: Again, when asked, he gives to householders things appropriate for householders, and to monks things appropriate for monks. He gives to his mother and father, kinsmen and relatives, friends and colleagues, children, wife, slaves and workers, without causing pain to anyone. Having promised an excellent gift, he does not give something mean. He does not give because he desires gain, honour or fame, or because he expects something in return, or out of expectation of some fruit other than the supreme enlightenment (in the case of the Bodhisatta). He does not give detesting the gift or those who ask. He does not give a discarded object as a gift, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him. 14158 From: onco111 Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 2:25am Subject: formal sitting and corruptions of insight I just popped into DSG and noticed that "calm and insight" looks like the topic of the week. And since butting in has been elevated to the level of a good-thing-to-do, how can I resist? [Hmmm... Come to think of it, I'm quite accomplished at resisting doing the right thing, but I'll butt in anyway.] I want to start with Robert's excellent and brief comment. > Dear Chris., > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive of > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > robert This is a carefully written, nuanced comment, Robert, but I'll leave the nuances aside for now and stick with the main thrust. You make an interesting and important point, and one that you've made often before, viz. that calm accompanies insight. Can we take it a step further, to insight induces calm? In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of phenomena such as illumination, rapture, tranquility, bliss, etc. These phenomena may arise for one without insight in the course of formal meditation by, say, directing the mind to a kasina or the touch of the breath on the upper lip. However, these phenomena can also arise "due to insight" in a "beginner of insight," according to Vism. [107...] It may seem like a subtle distinction here -- whether the calm is induced by directing the mind onto a particular object or whether it is induced by insight -- but the distinction is clear. With the purposive directing of the mind onto an object, there is a repeated fixing of the attention on the object and the conscious suppression of the hindrances. With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104] "And now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him. ...illumination due to insight...knowledge due to insight...rapturous happiness due to insight...tranquillity due to insight...bliss due to insight...faith...well-exerted energy...well-founded mindfulness...equanimity...attachment due to insight." [Vism XX 105- 122]. [An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of insight." I don't think this reading makes sense, even though the translation might suggest it. After all, who is this 'person' with the status of 'beginner of insight'? And why are these things called 'imperfections' in him and not in someone who does not have that status? It would make more sense to read it more along the lines of: "With the tender insight knowledge (as discussed on the previous pages), ten imperfections might arise." But does the Pali support this? In other words, does the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)] When formations are seen with insight thus as anicca, anatta, and dukkha, there is no way calm does not arise. With the calm there may also arise any of a number of mental phenomena. These phenomena may also arise from a manufactured calm in the course of, say, a Goenka or Mahasi meditation retreat. But their arising may or may not have anything to do with insight. When they are induced by insight, Buddhagosa calls them "imperfections". When they arise from in the course of a meditation retreat, they are frequently called something like "way stations". Whether they arise due to insight or due to a manufactured calm, they have tremendous seductive power to pull the meditator away from the path toward attachment. This is especially true when the insight is weak, or the phenomena arise more from a manufactured calm and less from insight. A cornerstone of the alluring power is confusion between calm and insight. "...when his insight is adorned with illumination, etc., attachment arises in him, which is subtle and peaceful in aspect, and it relies on (clings to) that insight; and he is not able to discern that attachment as a defilement....[I]llumination, etc., are called imperfections because they are the basis for imperfection, not because they are unprofitable [akusala]. But attachment is both an imperfection and the basis for imperfection." [Vism X 122, 124]. The result of confusing calm for insight? "When he takes what is not the path to be the path and what is not fruition to be fruition, the course of his insight is interrupted." [Vism. XX, 123]. Now, supposing these phenomena arise, whether due to insight or a manufactured calm, there are a few possible responses. First, "When a man takes it thus, 'Illumination has arisen in me', his way of taking is due to wrong view [ditthi]. When he takes it thus, 'How agreeable this illumination that has arisen is', his way of taking is due to pride (conceit) [mana]. When he relishes the illumination, his way of taking is due to craving. So there are three ways of taking it in the case of illumination, that is to say, due to ditthi, to pride (conceit), and to craving. Likewise with the rest." [Vism. XX 125] The response may also be with understanding: "'This illumination has arisen. But it is impermanent, formed, conditionally arisen, subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation.' Or he thinks: 'If illumination were self, it would be right to take it as self; but being not-self, it is taken as self. Therefore it is not-self in the sense of no pwer being exercisable over it; it is impermanent in the sense of non-existence after having come to be; it is painful in the sense of oppression by rise and fall'..." [Vism. XX 126] The arising of the phenomena are not insight, they aren't necessarily associated with insight (or signify insight), and they don't give rise to insight in any special way. They are just mental states that arise and pass away, and it is no easier to view these fruits of concentration with insight than it is to view so many other mental states with insight. In fact, it may even be more difficult for insight to arise about these corruptions than with many other types of phenomena because they are so pleasant, they seem so "right", and the allure is so strong that they represent substantial obstacles to insight, especially when they arise from manufactured calm in the context of formal sitting. This does not mean that formal sitting is wrong or bad or to-be- avoided, but for it to not be more harmful than beneficial, it must be approached with a good deal of caution, prudence, and humility. If not, the 10 corruptions of insight are more likely to serve as the basis of attachment than insight. Dan 14159 From: onco111 Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 2:25am Subject: formal sitting and corruptions of insight I just popped into DSG and noticed that "calm and insight" looks like the topic of the week. And since butting in has been elevated to the level of a good-thing-to-do, how can I resist? [Hmmm... Come to think of it, I'm quite accomplished at resisting doing the right thing, but I'll butt in anyway.] I want to start with Robert's excellent and brief comment. > Dear Chris., > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive of > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > robert This is a carefully written, nuanced comment, Robert, but I'll leave the nuances aside for now and stick with the main thrust. You make an interesting and important point, and one that you've made often before, viz. that calm accompanies insight. Can we take it a step further, to insight induces calm? In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of phenomena such as illumination, rapture, tranquility, bliss, etc. These phenomena may arise for one without insight in the course of formal meditation by, say, directing the mind to a kasina or the touch of the breath on the upper lip. However, these phenomena can also arise "due to insight" in a "beginner of insight," according to Vism. [107...] It may seem like a subtle distinction here -- whether the calm is induced by directing the mind onto a particular object or whether it is induced by insight -- but the distinction is clear. With the purposive directing of the mind onto an object, there is a repeated fixing of the attention on the object and the conscious suppression of the hindrances. With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104] "And now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him. ...illumination due to insight...knowledge due to insight...rapturous happiness due to insight...tranquillity due to insight...bliss due to insight...faith...well-exerted energy...well-founded mindfulness...equanimity...attachment due to insight." [Vism XX 105- 122]. [An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of insight." I don't think this reading makes sense, even though the translation might suggest it. After all, who is this 'person' with the status of 'beginner of insight'? And why are these things called 'imperfections' in him and not in someone who does not have that status? It would make more sense to read it more along the lines of: "With the tender insight knowledge (as discussed on the previous pages), ten imperfections might arise." But does the Pali support this? In other words, does the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)] When formations are seen with insight thus as anicca, anatta, and dukkha, there is no way calm does not arise. With the calm there may also arise any of a number of mental phenomena. These phenomena may also arise from a manufactured calm in the course of, say, a Goenka or Mahasi meditation retreat. But their arising may or may not have anything to do with insight. When they are induced by insight, Buddhagosa calls them "imperfections". When they arise from in the course of a meditation retreat, they are frequently called something like "way stations". Whether they arise due to insight or due to a manufactured calm, they have tremendous seductive power to pull the meditator away from the path toward attachment. This is especially true when the insight is weak, or the phenomena arise more from a manufactured calm and less from insight. A cornerstone of the alluring power is confusion between calm and insight. "...when his insight is adorned with illumination, etc., attachment arises in him, which is subtle and peaceful in aspect, and it relies on (clings to) that insight; and he is not able to discern that attachment as a defilement....[I]llumination, etc., are called imperfections because they are the basis for imperfection, not because they are unprofitable [akusala]. But attachment is both an imperfection and the basis for imperfection." [Vism X 122, 124]. The result of confusing calm for insight? "When he takes what is not the path to be the path and what is not fruition to be fruition, the course of his insight is interrupted." [Vism. XX, 123]. Now, supposing these phenomena arise, whether due to insight or a manufactured calm, there are a few possible responses. First, "When a man takes it thus, 'Illumination has arisen in me', his way of taking is due to wrong view [ditthi]. When he takes it thus, 'How agreeable this illumination that has arisen is', his way of taking is due to pride (conceit) [mana]. When he relishes the illumination, his way of taking is due to craving. So there are three ways of taking it in the case of illumination, that is to say, due to ditthi, to pride (conceit), and to craving. Likewise with the rest." [Vism. XX 125] The response may also be with understanding: "'This illumination has arisen. But it is impermanent, formed, conditionally arisen, subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation.' Or he thinks: 'If illumination were self, it would be right to take it as self; but being not-self, it is taken as self. Therefore it is not-self in the sense of no pwer being exercisable over it; it is impermanent in the sense of non-existence after having come to be; it is painful in the sense of oppression by rise and fall'..." [Vism. XX 126] The arising of the phenomena are not insight, they aren't necessarily associated with insight (or signify insight), and they don't give rise to insight in any special way. They are just mental states that arise and pass away, and it is no easier to view these fruits of concentration with insight than it is to view so many other mental states with insight. In fact, it may even be more difficult for insight to arise about these corruptions than with many other types of phenomena because they are so pleasant, they seem so "right", and the allure is so strong that they represent substantial obstacles to insight, especially when they arise from manufactured calm in the context of formal sitting. This does not mean that formal sitting is wrong or bad or to-be- avoided, but for it to not be more harmful than beneficial, it must be approached with a good deal of caution, prudence, and humility. If not, the 10 corruptions of insight are more likely to serve as the basis of attachment than insight. Dan 14160 From: onco111 Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 2:26am Subject: jhana When insight arises, there is also a measure of calm induced, even to the point where various, very pleasant phenomena ("corruptions or imperfection of insight") may arise, such as discussed in Vism XX 105ff. These phenomena also arise as fruits of cultivation of concentration. But whether they arise due to insight or more narrowly as a cultivated fruit of concentration, they are simply mental states, empty of anything we can call a self. Does mundane jhana yield to the same characterization, i.e. arising due to insight or as a result of cultivated concentration? I believe it does. For example, we read in Vism V:19: "Of the white kasina it is said: 'One who is learning the white kasina apprehends the sign in white, either in a flower or in a cloth or in a color element.' So firstly, when someone has merit, having had previous practice, the sign arises in him when he sees a flowering bush of such a kind or vassikasumana (jasmine) flowers, etc., spread out, or a heap of white lotuses or lilies, white cloth or color element; and it also arises in a tin disk, a silver disk, and the moon's disk. "Anyone else should make a kasina, in the way already described for the blue kasina, with the white flowers already mentioned, or with cloth or color element. He should bring to mind as 'white, white'. The rest is as before [in the discussion of earth kasina]." In the second case, there is a directed, purposefully cultivated one- pointedness arising from fixing the mind on a chosen object. In contrast, with the first casethe sign arises upon seeing a flower, or a white cloth, or the moon, or... The object spontaneously acts as a kasina when insight arises and when the characteristics of one- pointedness concentration are recognized because of previous cultivation. But what kind of insight could "spontaneously" give rise to the arising of the sign in an object seen? "Quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unprofitable things he enters upon and dwells in the first jhana." [Vbh.245, cited in Vism. IV, 79]. The 'quite secluded' here means that the hindrances are wholly suppressed. 'Secluded' means that the mind does not indulge the sense desires, withdraws from the sense desires, stays away from the touch of the sense desires. This seclusion can arise from a purposefully cultivated one-pointedness (as in formal sitting) or from insight into the danger of sense desire and the clear awareness of the utter unsatifactoriness of all kinds of sense desire. With this insight, the mind recoils from any hints of sense desire as they arise, and eventually there is a good degree of seclusion. Along with the insight, there necessarily arises calm together with increasing seclusion. The insights may arise outside of formal sitting, as may a heightening degree of seclusion. The calm, insight, and seclusion build on each other until the sign arises in a simple object. The process is that insight into the wretchedness of sense desire repeatedly pulls the mind away from sense desire and a seclusion is developed. If the insight is strong enough and repeated enough, the seclusion is developed to the degree that that sign arises naturally and "spontaneously." This is substantially different from the directed cultivation of the arising of the sign because insight cannot be forced or directed. There is no saying, "Hmmmm.... Insight in the wretchedness of sense desire is a desirable thing, so I will make it arise by repeating: 'sense desire is wretched, sense desire is wretched." Nothing doing. This may give rise to strong concentration, but not to insight. Insight arises from clear comprehension of states as they arise and pass away, not so much from picking an object to fix the mind to. When the insight DOES arise, the next thing you know, the body may end up under a tree, erect, with mindfulness firmly established. The mind may then be quite secluded from sense desire and enter into the first jhana, emerge from the first jhana, enter into the second jhana, etc. Or it may not. It may instead embark on the noble path. Most likely, though, the mind is able to find some attachment, and the insight comes to a screeching halt, perhaps without any realization that the attachment is a defilement, so that instead of 'noble path', the mind walks the wrong path. Now, the arising of the sign is only the first step in moving to jhana. It is followed by the arising of the counterpart sign, which is an indication what is called 'access concentration' -- one step away from jhana. The arising of the sign does not necessarily entail the arising of the counterpart sign; on the contrary, "the arousing of the counterpart sign...is very difficult." [Vism IV, 34]. By my reading, the sign may arise spontaneously due to insight during daily life, but probably not the counterpart sign or full jhana. This appears to virtually require that the body ends up under a tree or on a cushion. However, when the insight is strong enough to arouse the sign in an object in daily life and the body moves to a cushion, the force of the insight may indeed relatively readily facilitate the arising of the counterpart sign and even the flash of a moment of jhana. At any point, the thought may arise: "Ahhh... This is wonderful!" or "Oooo... I had some cool insights!" or "Wow! I'd like to see that counterpart sign arise now!" At that point, the process is derailed and is replaced by attachment and craving. This development of jhana is not is explicitly cultivated; rather, it is a possible consequence of the development of insight. There is also an explicitly cultivated jhana that Vism. also discusses. The jhana is the same in both cases, and the seclusion that is associated with the arising of the sign, the counterpart sign, and the jhana is kusala. But the development may well not conduce to development of subsequent detachment and discernment. Analogies -- Case 1: A householder that gives food to famous monk on his birthday in order to store up merit. There may well be a moment or two of kusala (dana) in the whole process of giving, but it is so much mixed up with wrong view that the kusala has little force. Case 2: Insight may arise in a meditator to the degree that one or more of the 10 "corruptions of insight" arise. There may well be some kusala moments of detachment and saddha (as opposed to mana), but they might be so much mixed up with wrong view about the practice that the kusala has little force. Case 3: An accomplished meditator may be able to cultivate jhana, which is no doubt kusala. But the whole process may be so much mixed up with wrong view that the kusala has little force, and the practice package (not the jhana itself) might end up being a vehicle for generating craving and ignorance. How so? The cultivation of jhana may wrongly be viewed as the vehicle or as the path itself. The meditator may have an occasional moment of jhana interspersed with trillions and trillions of moments of craving for jhana or lamenting the passing away of those rare and precious jhana moments. The concept of jhana may then become an object for clinging, and the cycle of becoming continues unabated: "May I be reborn in a higher plane! May I be born in a higher plane!" Case 4: A long-experienced but unaccomplished meditator tries to attain jhana but cannot because conditions are not ripe for him. The trillions and trillions of moments of craving for things to be as they are not, for particular mental states that have not arisen, are not attenuated by even the brief moments of jhana that an accomplished meditator may experience. The practice becomes a wonderful vehicle for generating attachment. Is the intention to have this or that attainment, to relish some types of mental states, or to develop understanding and detachment? When the object is development of understanding, there is not so much thought of this practice or that practice, or even the question of the necessity or desirability of "formal practice." Instead, there is concern about understanding this moment, understanding the mental states as they arise, without being overly concerned about waiting for the material conditions to be conducive to focusing the mind on a particular object that one choosing as the important one. Dan 14161 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 7:06am Subject: ADL ch. 14 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 14 (4) When we are not mindful of realities, we take the objects we experience for self. When panna realizes the objects which are experienced as nama and rupa, elements which do not last, there is less opportunity for akusala javana-cittas. In the 'Visuddhimagga' (I, 55) we read about the 'Elder' Maha-Tissa : ...It seems that as the Elder was on his way from Cetiya-pabbata to Anuradhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had quarrelled with her husband and had set out early from Anuradhapura all dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her relatives' home, saw him on the road, and being low-minded, she laughed a loud laugh. (Wondering) 'What is that?", the Elder looked up, and finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness, he reached Arahantship. Hence it was said : 'He saw the bones that were her teeth, And kept in mind his first perception; And standing on that very spot, The Elder became an Arahant.' But her husband who was going after her saw the Elder and asked 'Venerable sir, did you by any chance see a woman?' The Elder told him: 'Whether it was a man or woman That went by I noticed not ; But only that on this high road There goes a group of bones.' Maha-Tissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor entranced by the details. He realized when he perceived the woman's teeth the 'foulness of the body' and he did not take what he perceived for 'self'. The perception of the 'foulness of the body' reminds us not to see the self in the body, but to realize bodily phenomena as rupas which do not stay. Maha-Tissa saw things as they are; the panna arising at that moment was to the degree that it could eradicate all defilements. There are countless javana-cittas in a day with lobha, dosa and moha, and therefore we should not be heedless, but we should be as mindful as we are able to. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, par. 97, Dwelling heedless) : At Savatthi was the occasion (of this discourse)... 'I will teach you, monks, of the one who dwells heedless, and of the one who dwells earnest. Do you listen to it. And how, monks, does one dwell heedless? In him, monks, who dwells with the faculty of sight uncontrolled, the heart is corrupted by objects cognizable by the eye. In him whose heart is corrupted there is no delight. Without delight there is no joy. Where joy is not, there is no calm. Without calm one dwells in sorrow. The sorrowful man's heart is not composed. When the heart is not composed, one has not clear ideas. Through not having clear ideas he is reckoned as one who dwells heedless. (And it is the same with regard to the faculties of taste, touch and mind). And how, monks, does one dwell in earnest? In him, monks, who dwells with the faculty of sight controlled the heart is not corrupted by objects cognizable by the eye. In him whose heart is not corrupted delight is born. In one delighted joy is born. When one is joyful the body is calmed. He whose body is calmed feels at ease. Composed is the heart of him who is at ease. When the heart is composed one's ideas are clear. Through having clear ideas one is reckoned as one who dwells earnest. (And it is the same with regard to the faculty of taste, touch and mind.) Thus, monks, is one a dweller in earnestness.' Questions 1. Are there for the arahat only lokuttara cittas performing the function of javana, or can he also have kamavacara cittas (cittas of the sensuous plane) performing the function of javana? 2. Are there vipakacittas which can perform the function of javana? 14162 From: lbn1959 Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 7:22am Subject: test only a test sorry Leonardo 14163 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Sarah, thanks for all this great research. I didn't mean to put you to so much trouble. I have a couple of comments on two of your sources. S: In 'Guide to Conditional Relations',by U Narada (PTS) I'm reading that there are 33 volitions associated with 'faultless and faulty consciousnesses' and with these its function is 'to leave behind a force, like the seed or germ, which will produce resultant mental aggregates and kamma-produced matter in the future. We read that this force is present like the latent tendencies. L: By 'resultant mental aggregates' I take it Ven. U Narada means vipaka cittas. Correct? S: "In the description of the clause "with formations as condition consciousness", as regards cakkhuvinnanam ("eye-consciousness") and so on, eye-consciousness is twofold, namely, profitable resultant and unprofitable resultant. Likewise ear-........ L: I think there must be some confusion here. "With formations as condition, consciousness" refers to rebirth consciousness (patisandhi). Eye consciousness doesn't arise until after ayatana nidana. I think it's more or less assumed in phassa (contact) nidana. I guess it's kind of fruitless to try to reason this process out in detail since it can only be superficially known. What should we be doing with citta process as a study or practice topic? Its ok with me if you wait awhile to respond. It hurts my wrist to read your posts. best wishes, Larry 14164 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi Howard, --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > VERY interesting post! ..... I’m glad to hear your response. (Jon said he found it interesting too as he never knew I’d been on a Goenka retreat - sooner or later he finds out all my closet skeletons here;-)) > ********************************** > > I also have puzzled over the emphasis on physical sensations. In > current writings by Goenka et al, the claim seems to be that all > elements of > experience have an effect in that area, and it can serve as a kind of > central > focus point. To my mind, it is, in fact, a zeroing in on a limited area > of > experience, albeit an important one, and one via which enliughtenment > factors > can develop. I also question whether this practice actually constitutes > vedanupassana. I suspect it might be better described as a form of > "internal" > kayanupassana. ..... Of course there is a very big difference -- as we all discuss here-- between vedana (a kind of nama) and rupa. We also know that if there isn’t clear comprehension and understanding developed of the distinction, by being aware of all kinds of namas and rupas over and over again, there cannot be any higher knowledge (let alone enlightenment) and realities will continue to be taken for self. ..... >On that issue, I have long been confused on the preceise > meaning of 'vedana'. Sometimes it seems to mean, as with Goenka, bodily > sensation perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but at other > times > it seems to mean the very experience of plesantness, unpleasantness, or > neutrality itself, as opposed to the physical sensation. The suttas > don't > clarify this sufficiently for me. What about Abhidhamma? ..... Actually, there is also plenty of detail in the suttas, but it is often misunderstood and I used to get rather confused too. For example, in the Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatanavagga, the Theme of the Hundred and Eight (following the Sivaka Sutta, p1280 in BB’s translation), it discusses the different classifications of vedana (feelings) and is a good example of how realities are classified according to the context.: “I have spoken of five kinds of feelings...six kinds...eighteen...thirty-six..; and I have spoken of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings by (still another) method of exposition...” It gives detail, but without the abhidhamma and dependent on a translation, it’s very easy to get confused, I think. Like you sugggest, the physical sensations experienced by body consciousness are rupas (hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion). The vedana (feelings) are nama accompanying the cittas at every moment. Let me quote from a post I wrote a while ago to Manji: ***** When the feelings are summarised into 5 kinds (commonly), they are: a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) c) happy feeling (somanassa) d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. ***** So even pleasant and painful bodily feelings are mental factors, namas, which experience the rupas at these times with the cittas and other mental factors. I’ll be glad to hear if this still isn’t clear. I’d also recommend the chapter on vedana in “Cetasikas’ by NIna for further clarification. It’s interesting that we both shared this confusion and I know many others do as well. =============== Btw, on the Elephant’s Footprint 2. thread, I think I didn’t reply to your last post because we were in pretty much full agreement (no news is good news from me;-)) As I was discussing with Larry, if there is no result of kamma by way of seeing consciousness at this moment, then even though we may be ‘looking’ at a car, for example, if the ‘external forms’ don’t come ‘into range’, we’re in trouble. I’ll sign off here, but add some of your comments below which I appreciated and agreed with, including the one about academic parties;-) Sarah ====== > Howard: > There is just the anger ("our" anger, namely the anger directly > perceived and not just inferred in "another"), as it is, with the > accompanying unpleasantness, tightness, burning, and agitation, and > there is > the knowing of it, all impersonal phenomena. The anger and the knowing > of it > co-occur as a single experiential event, never separately, but not > one-and-the-same either. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > So we begin to understand a little more about the universality of the > > Teachings by understanding directly the namas and rupas appearing now. -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. And what is most critical that we come to understand is the > impersonality of the entire process and all its elements: citta, > cetasika, > and rupa, and especially the impersonality of the knowing, which is mere > > function and not an agent. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Using your party analogy, .......> ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. By repeated observation, we can distinguish parties from > funerals > (though sometimes this is difficult - considering some academic parties > I've > been to! ;-)), and, by careful observation, we can learn to distinguish > such > pairs as knowing from known, permanent from impermanent, substantial > from > insubstantial, and directly perceived from conceptually constructed. > ----------------------------------------------------------- 14165 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 4:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Shakti, Probably if we delved enough we’d find we’d been in Bodhgaya at the same time. (There is one other member on the list that I remember from then). Bodh Gaya was just a very small sleepy village with a few rickshaws. In the newspaper today, I read that Sri Lankan airways are starting a direct flight to B.Gaya from Colombo. Is it possible?? ..... > ... When I finally sat w/Mr. Goenka and we began to explore body > sensations I was amazed to find that in some areas of my body I had > absolutely no awareness of sensation. At least I couldn't sense > anything - not even pain seemed to be present in some areas. I wanted > to do anything but watch - Mr. Goenka said just keep penetrating the > area. ..... Again, I can see a therapeutic value or potential in this, but question what it has to do with the Buddha’s Teachings. ..... > Sarah, you asked below what is this'I'. I wrote, if I understand this > correctly wisdom and awareness just develop they have nothing to do with > 'I'. What I mean by this 'I' is the sense of me actually being in > control of something here. Wisdom and awareness seem to develop when > conditions are right. There is no I - I am only speaking > conventionally. ..... Thank you....I may have mis-understood your "???" ..... > On another note, Mr Goenka will be here in Missoula, Montana (where I > live) in a few days. He will pass thru Missoula as part of his North > American tour where he will travel thru different parts of Canada and > the USA. He will conduct a one day sit for old students and then that > night give a public talk at the university of Montana. I will be > sitting with about 50 other old students here. I will let you all know > what that was like later next week. I have heard that he will be > answering questions - so now maybe your opportunity. Any burning > questions?????? ..... That’ll be interesting......he must be in his 70s or 80s now? I admire his stamina and kindness. No burning questions, but I’ll be interested to read your report. You could ask, if you feel inclined, where in the Tipitaka it suggests there should be the focussing on these sensations. Was the method taught by the Buddha or was it introduced by his teacher, U Ba Kin (sp?) Howard or Sukin may have other questions. Thanks for all your other comments too. Have fun! Sarah ==== 14166 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 1 Hi Num, (Nina, Jaran & Kom in passing), --- Num wrote: > Dear Nina, Sarah and all. > > I am somewhat busy with my new job, new place and also getting used to > Thai > system. I went to the Foundation last week. It was a very nice > experience. > Meeting a lot of eager to learn and knowledgeable persons is a very nice > > feeling. ..... It must have been quite interesting for you after hearing so much from your aunt and others. I’m sure they were all very glad to meet you and I’m sure your sense of humour will help with the changes in systems;-) ..... Thank you for your intro below.which is interesting but rather like a foreign language to me at this stage, so I’ll just sit back and enjoy your discussion with Nina. I started reading the long intro by AK Warder in the 1997 PTS ed of the text. It’s very detailed and frankly, mostly over my head (read- just an intellectual exercise at this stage). It gives a lot of cross-referencing on the discriminations and compares the uses in Anguttara,Parivara (Vinaya), Vibhanga, Kathavatthu and other texts. It suggests some differences, so I’m glad to read Nina’s notes too. Enough said. ***** On quite a separate thread, we were discussing with Jaran the meaning of “If you wish” (sace akankhati) which he was questioning in MN152 (I think) where it appears frequently. I mentioned it sometime to K.Sujin and she suggested it was just conventional usage. For example, if a child has learnt to play the piano, we may say “play now, if you wish”. Of course it doesn’t mean that there is any self to decide, to control, to arrange conditions or to play, but having mastered various skills, conventionally we can say “play, if you wish” because the child has the ability. Kom gave a couple of examples about wishes in a helpful post to Christine on "Merit Making" which were interesting. He pointed out that “it is impossible to have small kusala, make big wishes, and get big results”. There are also the suttas which have been quoted to show that it is the understanding and not the wishing that brings results. The reason I started thinking about this now is because when I was looking for a particular reference for my post to Larry yesterday in Sammohavinodani, I came across a section title “One’s Wish’ under Classification of the Truths (11): “Icchaa uppajjati (“there arises the wish”): there arises the craving. Aho vata (“Ah!”) is the aspiration. Na kho pan’eta.m icchaaya pattabba.m (“but this is not to be had by wishing”): this non-subjection to birth which exists in the pious who have abandoned arising, and ths non-coming of birth which exists in those who have attained extinction, wished for thus:...........is not to be had by wishing because it is not to be had without developing the path by one who wishes, and because it is to be had through developing the path by one who does not wish..........because there is something whereby one who wishes for an unobtainable thing (vatthu) does not obtain it, the wishing for the unobtainable thing should be understood as suffering.....yam p’iccham.m na labbhati tam pi dukkha.m (“also this not obtaining one’s wish is pain”). ***** Thanks for keeping in touch with us Num and look f/w to any of your reports. Sarah ===== 14167 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 6:10pm Subject: A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Larry, Let’s see if I can be kind to both our wrists this time;-) Let me just say that you didn'tput me to any trouble....it was a pleasure and was written for others too. A few ‘clear-up’ comments if I may: 1.’Resultant mental aggregates’ referred to by U Narada would refer to vipaka cittas and associated cetasikas. 2.With regard to the quote I gave from the Sammohavinodani regarding eye-consciousness and the other vipaka cittas, it is referring to resulting vipakas at birth and throughout life (as in the case of sense consciousness). Let me add another short quote: “Firstly, in one who is reborn by means of either profitable result or unprofitable result, according as his faculties mature, (so) the five profitable resultant eye (etc) consciousnesses occur, accomplishing the functions of seeing, hearing (etc), on being instigated (respectively) by a desirable or undesirable-neutral visible datum etc as objects come into focus of the eye etc, and having eye-sensitivity as their (material) support. Likewise the five unpfofitable resultant......” 3.By understanding a little more theory and carefully considering it as you do, it can be a condition for understanding to develop. I was just discussing with Howard about rupas and vedana and so on. If they are all mixed together (not the language issue), it’s very difficult for namas and rupas to be known. Concepts will be taken for realities and an idea of self is bound to be involved, i think. 4. Thinking is never vipaka. We may be referring to specific cetasikas (Vitakka and vicara), to a combination of factors or to the cittas involved. Maybe we can come back to this;-) 5. I found your CMA quote very helpful. Some of your conclusions weren’t quite right as I read them. Vipaka cittas are not result in name only. It is as a result of kamma that the citta experiences the desirable or undesirable object and thus it is kusala or akusala vipaka at that time. Dosa and sannavipallasa will arise in the following javana process. I hope my other post to H. on vedana (feeling)may have helped a little. Vedana is a universal cetasika, like sanna, arising with every citta. ***** I’m trying hard to be kind to our wrists and get ready for my tai chi class at the same time. Let me know if anything still isn’t clear or if I’ve made any mistakes. Sarah ===== 14168 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 3:01pm Subject: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sarah - I'll just zero in on that part of your post I still have questions about. In a message dated 7/5/02 3:49:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > >On that issue, I have long been confused on the preceise > > meaning of 'vedana'. Sometimes it seems to mean, as with Goenka, bodily > > sensation perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but at other > > times > > it seems to mean the very experience of plesantness, unpleasantness, or > > neutrality itself, as opposed to the physical sensation. The suttas > > don't > > clarify this sufficiently for me. What about Abhidhamma? > ..... > Actually, there is also plenty of detail in the suttas, but it is often > misunderstood and I used to get rather confused too. For example, in the > Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatanavagga, the Theme of the Hundred and Eight > (following the Sivaka Sutta, p1280 in BB’s translation), it discusses the > different classifications of vedana (feelings) and is a good example of > how realities are classified according to the context.: > > “I have spoken of five kinds of feelings...six > kinds...eighteen...thirty-six..; and I have spoken of one hundred and > eight kinds of feelings by (still another) method of exposition...†> > It gives detail, but without the abhidhamma and dependent on a > translation, it’s very easy to get confused, I think. > > Like you sugggest, the physical sensations experienced by body > consciousness are rupas (hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion). > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, rupas. But what about tinglings, itches, pressures, and pains? Are these also rupas (and/or conceptually grouped pkgs of rupas) or are these vedana. Goenka et al seem to consider them vedana, but I suspect that is miscategorization. ----------------------------------------------------- The> > vedana (feelings) are nama accompanying the cittas at every moment. Let me > quote from a post I wrote a while ago to Manji: > ***** > When the feelings are summarised into 5 kinds (commonly), they are: > > a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) > b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) > c) happy feeling (somanassa) > d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) > e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, but this is still partly ambiguous. Items c) and d) are clear to me, being mental feelings, being unambiguously on the "nama side". Items a), b), and e), however, could still be understood in more than one way. On the one hand, they could refer to various physical sensations *felt* as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutrally. On this reading, there would be *multitudes* of differing vedana - a huge aggregate. On the other hand, they could refer merely to instances of pleasantness, unpleasantness, and indifference *conditioned* by sensory contact, with the instances all differing due to the differences in the sensory contacts that conditioned their arising. (This reading would also allow for a huge aggregate, but the differences in instances is more indirect in this case, being based not on the feelings themselves, but on the conditioning contact.) I suspect that it is this *latter* reading that was intended by the Buddha, but I don't find this issue crystal clear. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala > vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by > either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these > moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very > short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed > by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and > these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. > ***** > So even pleasant and painful bodily feelings are mental factors, namas, > which experience the rupas at these times with the cittas and other mental > factors. > > I’ll be glad to hear if this still isn’t clear. I’d also recommend the > chapter on vedana in “Cetasikas’ by NIna for further clarification. It’s > interesting that we both shared this confusion and I know many others do > as well. > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14169 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 11:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I think you are saying that because the citta and its object changes very > rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This perhaps forms the basis > of the attraction to the 'slowing down' approach.) > > As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the changing > object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different realities, each > to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, this does not mean > awareness of all realities all the time, nor does it mean awareness of but > a single moment of a dhamma (these would be things that only the likes of > a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does it mean necessarily awareness of > different dhammas successively. > > If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it doesn't > matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other moments of > awareness. > > > Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. > > Goglerr > > As I've said above, we are not trying to 'catch' an individual moments of > citta or its object, so the speed of change is not a problem. > > ========================== Howard: I think you are addressing something important and interesting here. It is also a subject which, to my mind, calls for clarification. First of all - yes, I think it is that "keeping up" aspect which motivates the attempt to "slow down", a matter which I *partially* question (and which is an issue separate from that of formal vs informal meditation.). The main thing, however, which I would like to see clarified, however, is the meaning of 'awareness' in what I have quoted by you above. It doesn't seem that it could mean vi~n~nana/citta, for that is available all the time. Can it mean sati? That strikes me as more probable. I would suppose that in an early "training phase", doing things more slowly could aid in the building of sati, but I also think that once a certain level of sati is in place, it is that, itself, which subjectively "slows things down" and leads to yet further sati. I'd be interested in hearing yours and others comments on this. =============================== Jon: Yes, I very much agree that this is an important area (and an interesting one, too). Thanks for raising it. I hope I can contribute something useful, and that others will come in. 1. The meaning of 'awareness' 'Awareness' and 'mindfulness' are terms used for the Pali 'sati', as in 'satipatthana'. This term is found in both the suttas and the abhidhamma. In the abhidhamma, sati is identified as one of the cetasikas (mental factors), so it arises together with, and experiences the same object as, a citta (moment of consciousness). When we talk about having awareness/being aware, we refer in fact to *consciousness that is accompanied by the mental factor of awareness* (just as when we talk about being angry we refer to consciousness accompanied by the mental factor of dosa). 2. Whether advanced sati can result in a subjective slowing down of things. From my reading of texts such as the Satipatthana Sutta, it seems that highly developed awareness, when accompanied by understanding, results in dhammas being perceived more clearly and that seems to include, for want of a better way of putting it, perceiving more dhammas and perceiving them more according to their true nature (not self etc). The sense I get is 'in greater detail', or 'in a magnified form' rather than 'in a slowed-down form', but it probably amounts to much the same thing. 3. Whether doing things more slowly can be an aid to awareness in the beginning. While this has a certain superficial appeal, it lacks any support from the texts. As I said in an earlier post, the assumption here is that the 'problem' is that things are happening too fast, or are too intermingled, to be 'caught' by awareness, whereas in reality the problem is quite simply that the awareness accumulated to date is not sufficiently well developed. As to specifically in what sense it departs from the development of awareness as found in the texts, I would say as follows. The purpose of slowing down is to enable one's attention to be focussed more strongly on a particular dhamma or on dhammas generally. However, the texts do not draw any distinction between one dhamma and another, as far as the descriptions of 'things to be known as they are' are concerned. I refer here to the 5 khandhas, 'the all', the 4 satipatthanas, etc. No one dhamma is said to be more in need of being known than another. It seems to me that whenever we 'focus on a dhamma', we are actually focussing on something that we *take for* a dhamma but is not in fact so, since without awareness dhammas are not and cannot be directly experienced and so do not appear to us as they are. This is why, in my view, any attempted focussing or directed attention on an object is bound to fail. The danger in all this is that there can be 'results' from this kind of practice that appear to match things described in the texts, and this is readily taken as confirmation of the correctness of the practice. Well, that's how I see it. I hope this offers something of interest. I'd like to hear what others have to say, too. Jon 14170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Dear Larry, thinking is always javana, and never vipaka. But when we mean by thinking the cetasika vitakka, which hits and strikes the object so that citta can cognize it, this arises with all cittas of the sensesphere other than the five pairs of seeing, hearing, etc. Seeing does not need vitakka in order to see. But it accompanies the vipakacittas which are receiving-consciousness and investigating-consciousness, besides, the ahetuka kiriyacitta that is the sense-door adverting-consciousness. But let us talk now about thinking of stories and concepts. When the objective is not dana, sila or bhavana, we think with akusala cittas, often with lobha. The moments of thinking in a day are countless, and how little do we know about them, they pass unnoticed. Nina. op 04-07-2002 05:08 schreef <> op <>: > Hi guys, would it be correct to say thinking is always javana and never > vipaka? > > thanks, Larry 14171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] how little we know Dear Ranil, That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep understanding of characteristics that appear now. I also find that every time I have a discussion, like we had in India, I learn something, I understand just a tiny bit more. Should't we be grateful for that tiny bit? If we think that we have nothing to learn, then we are really stuck. It is true we are stuck with concepts and worrying unnecessarily, that is about stories which do not exist. If there is awareness just of what appears now, no worry in the world. But how difficult. With appreciation, Nina. op 04-07-2002 17:00 schreef ranil gunawardena op <>: > > Dhamma points which I was impressed: > The boiling down of everything to paramaththa dhamma. and how much we ignore > it. I mean we all know that every thing is citta, chetacika, rupa and > nirvana. But the discussion showed that how much we ignore it and are stuck > in concepts and worrying unnecessarily. > > And I got a chance to know how little understanding on the Dhamma I > have. I would realy like to attend an Abi Dhamma class by K. Sujin. 14172 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re:walking, cankamana op 04-07-2002 17:54 schreef Howard op Howard: Jon said: Do the texts, for example, speak of >> slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements' etc) >> as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding? How does >> noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that the >> suttas say are to be known? The texts are the ultimate touchstone for >> right or wrong view. We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or anyone >> else's assurance on this. >> > ========================== Howard: I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts certainly > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from the > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking > meditation in the open air." > Dear Howard and all, My translation PTs does not have walking meditation: walking about in the open air, and this must be in Pali: cankamana. The Buddha himself and also the monks had to change posture after sitting for a long time, that was good for the body. We read this in the "daily routine of the Buddha". The monks knew that there can be mindfulness in any posture, thus, also when walking: there are only nama and rupa. There could also be talk on Dhamma while walking. We read in the K, II, on Elements 2, § 15 Conduct, that the monks walked in groups, and that each group consisted of monks with the same inclinations, such as righteous converse or strict observance, etc. It was all very natural, nothing formal about it, no rules. I thought of cankamana when walking to the supermarket, but I am so heedless. There are nama and rupa, but I forget. Jon would say: what does it matter. We better learn that whatever arises is only a conditioned reality and beyond control. No good trying to be aware or to slow down. Besides, I have a lot of work to do how could I slow down? You also wrote in a recent post about Goenka: Howard: I also have puzzled over the emphasis on physical sensations. In current writings by Goenka et al, the claim seems to be that all elements of experience have an effect in that area, and it can serve as a kind of central focus point. To my mind, it is, in fact, a zeroing in on a limited area of experience, albeit an important one, and one via which enliughtenment factors can develop. I also question whether this practice actually constitutes vedanupassana. I suspect it might be better described as a form of "internal" kayanupassana. On that issue, I have long been confused on the preceise meaning of 'vedana'. Sometimes it seems to mean, as with Goenka, bodily sensation perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but at other times it seems to mean the very experience of plesantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality itself, as opposed to the physical sensation. The suttas don't clarify this sufficiently for me. What about Abhidhamma? Feelings are so clearly classified and also mentioned in the suttas: The feelings accompanying bodyconsciousness are vipaka: painful or pleasant, and in addition: pleasant (mental) feeling which can be kusala or akusala, unpleasant feeling always accompanying dosa, thus akusala, and indifferent feeling, which can accompany the sense-cognitions other than body-consciousness, and also kiriyacittas, and also kusala citta or akusala citta. As Sarah recently pointed out, it is difficult to distinguish between painful feeling and for example body-consciousness, and the unpleasant feeling arising shortly afterwards. We can use the word sensation, but this is not precise enough. I understand your phenomenological point of view: only what can be experienced counts, no abstractions. But, if we would think of a central focus point or a zeroing in on a limited area of experience, is there not a danger of the clinging to self, namely that point we take for mine? This is bound to happen to all of us, when there is awareness of a rupa in the body. Is there not a danger of limiting the objects of awareness? So long as we are not a sotapanna this wrong view has not been eradicated, and it can take on many forms like Mara, which we do not detect at all. It is so treacherous I find. Even those who are so advanced that they realize the arising and falling away of nama and rupa can have the vipassana upakilesa: O this insight, O this calm, how wonderful. Then they get stuck. At breakfast Lodewijk and I listened to a tape I had made of Bhikkhu Dhammadharo: he talked about the old self so deeply engrained. You remember we talked about him on this forum, he passed away in a car accident. I quote what he wrote to me in a letter: This is bound to happen and we better be alert to it. There is a danger here we should not underestimate. You also mentioned in the context of slowing down, awareness, and what is sati: Howard: The main thing, however, which I would like to see clarified, however, is the meaning of 'awareness' in what I have quoted by you above. It doesn't seem that it could mean vi~n~nana/citta, for that is available all the time. Can it mean sati? That strikes me as more probable. I would suppose that in an early "training phase", doing things more slowly could aid in the building of sati, but I also think that once a certain level of sati is in place, it is that, itself, which subjectively "slows things down" and leads to yet further sati. I'd be interested in hearing yours and others comments on this. Nina: As you say, awareness is not vi~n~naana. It has to be satisampaja~n~na, sati and panna that understands a characteristic that appears. If it is only sati but no panna, what is the use? Understanding characteristics of realities is the goal. Therefore, there should be a firm foundation understanding of what are exactly the objects of satipatthana: nama and rupa now, nothing else. Not you, but sati and panna do it all. We understand this in theory, but, without our noticing it, self creeps in, is that not true? Pittfalls all the time. Best wishes and with appreciation, from Nina. 14173 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Sarah, thanks for your tidy list of responses. One further question. With regard to the CMA quote on desirable and undesirable objects of vipaka cittas: 1. why are there no mind door vipaka cittas? 2. how can the bare data of sensory sensations be desirable or undesirable? Red isn't particularly desirable or undesirable but blood is. thanks, hope your wrist is better Larry 14174 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi Nina, I was wondering about kamma and accumulations. Would it be correct to say, if an akusala javana citta is _not_ acted on, there will be no kamma but there will be accumulations of the akusala cittas? If an akusala javana citta *is* acted on there will be _both_ accumulations and kamma? thanks, Larry 14175 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi, Larry - You raise two interesting questions, Larry. I'm going to give my opinions. That's all they are, opinions, not based on Abhidhamma, but only on my own experience and my "common sense", which is likely to be in error! ;-). In a message dated 7/5/02 5:47:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Sarah, thanks for your tidy list of responses. One further question. > With regard to the CMA quote on desirable and undesirable objects of > vipaka cittas: > > 1. why are there no mind door vipaka cittas? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I caanot believe that there are not! Surely memories, thoughts, feelings, and emotions arise in the mind as vipaka. ------------------------------------------------------- > > 2. how can the bare data of sensory sensations be desirable or > undesirable? Red isn't particularly desirable or undesirable but blood > is. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I think is the following: The sense datum (of red, or rose-odor, or wind-sound, or an emotion such as fear, or a memory etc) arises. In response to that there automatically arises a (possibly subtle) bodily sensation (rupa), and that sensation, due either to physical wiring (for example in the case of pain), or due to habituated predispositions (kamma) is felt (vedana) as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. The bottom line, as I see it, is that certain sensations are experienced in a fairly uniform way for given lifeforms (e.g., pain for humans - of course, masochists would be exceptions), but other sensations are experienced idiosyncratically from individual to individual, depending on that individual's kammic accumulations. In any case, you are right - there is nothing inherently "pleasant" in redness. This is how I see it. --------------------------------------------------- > > thanks, hope your wrist is better > > Larry > ============================= With metta, and too many opinions ;-)), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14176 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Howard, I didn't completely follow what you said about desirable and undesirable results. These terms (desirable/undesirable) come from a commentary cited in CMA and refer to 'conventional values'. The notion of conventional values is obviously problematic, but, that aside, I'm trying to get someone to say that kamma results are complex events, like a comet falling out of the sky and hitting me on the head. Not just simple sensations like hardness. 'Citta process' doesn't seem to accommodate a complex event, like you can't talk about making bread with atoms. Maybe we need to move up to a larger scale of organization. Larry 14177 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 8:41am Subject: Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Dear All, I've been listening to a Bhikkhu Bodhi tape on Rebirth and Kamma, and it made me wonder - Are there any scriptures about 'differing levels of responsibility' with Kamma? For example, if a child of seven years goes around with a rock killing many crabs on the beach, or steals something from a shop.... In most countries, the Law recognises various ages when the level of understanding of actions and consequences is more/less fully developed. I think in my country, a child cannot 'legally' be made responsible for any crime under the age of seven (and even after that is hugely protected, records suppressed, sentencing usually withheld), boys and girls cannot 'legally' agree to sexual acts under the age of sixteen, people cannot 'legally' marry, buy real estate, obtain credit, or vote in elections under the age of eighteen. People with intellectual impairment are not subject at law to the same consequences for their action as those not so impaired, as in the interests of fairness and justice, it is realised they don't have comprehension equal to that of unimpaired adults. I know there is a saying (according to the the last police constable I was having a lively discussion with about a faulty tail light) ... "Madam, ignorance of the state of your car, or of the Law, is no excuse - there is still a fine." Do children and people with an intellectual impairment attract the same kammic results for the same actions, as mentally competent adults? If you don't consider that you are doing, saying, thinking something wrong - what is the process that 'decides' right and wrong, and 'stores' the result for future consequences? I've always had difficulty with this 'process that decides'. How does the process take into consideration, not only the things mentioned above, but the different cultures and time periods? Consider two people, one lived centuries ago in a culture that approved of infanticide as a method of contraception, the other lives today in a culture that strictly opposes such a thing, but this person still feels driven to commit a similar act; the first one may regard what was done as just an unfortunate but necessary part of life, the second one may suffer all sorts of fear, guilt and remorse. Both commit the same act - one 'knows' the action is right and feels no unease, one has been taught it isn't and suffers. The attribution of responsibility of kammic acts seems so relentless, and I wonder if anything softens it? metta, Christine 14178 From: Num Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:32am Subject: Patisambhidamagga 2 Dear all, Sarah: Hope you get well soon. I have not read every single mail on dsg, so I have no clue of what's happened. PTSM is way above my head as well, but I do think that this is an extremely precious discourse. The intricate detail of clear comprehension of dhammas is minutely sliced and digested here. Nina: I really appreciate your remark. Thanks. There are 2 more sessions from the tape, then I will try update PTSM weekly (if conditions permit) as the session by A.Supee. Best wishes, Num ******************************* Path of Discrimination/Patisambhidamagga Cont' summary of PTSM introduction (p. 15-32) The introduction (gantharambhakatha) then refers to Vibhanga. According to suttantabha_jani_ya (fine classification according to suttas) patisambhidavibanga, there are 5 aspects of PTSM. 1.Saccava_ra (truths section) 2.Hetuva_ra (causes section) 3.Dhammava_ra (dhamma section) 4.Paccayakarava_ra (paticcasamuppada section) 5.Pariyattidhammava_ra (discourse section) 1) Saccava_ra: Discriminating panna in dukkha is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in causes of dukkha (lobha) is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in nibbana is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in magga is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all dhammas is patibhana-patisambhida. (Dukkha is a consequence, lobha is a cause, nibbana is the consequence, magga is the cause). 2) Hetuva_ra: Discriminating panna in dhammas, which are causes, is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in consequences of causes, is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all those n~a_na is patibhana-patisambhida. 3) Dhammava_ra: Discriminating panna in dhammas, which have already arisen, occurred or manifested, is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in dhammas, which cause those arisen, occurred or manifested dhamma is dhammapatisambhida. . Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all those n~a_na is patibhana-patisambhida. 4) Paccayakarava_ra: Discriminating panna in aging and death (jara and moran.a) is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in causes of aging and death is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in cessation of aging and death is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in causes of cessation of aging and death is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all those n~a_na is patibhana-patisambhida (this section deals with paticcasamuppada. Jara, and moran.a are consequences, avijja is the cause). 5) Pariyattidhammava_ra: Discriminating panna in discourse of the Buddha is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in the meaning of discourses is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all those n~a_na is patibhana-patisambhida. 2 levels of patisambhida: sekhabhumi (sotapattimagga/pala-arahatmagga) and asekhabhumi (arahatpala). 5 factors of clearness/'purity (visada): adhigama (attainment of arahat level), pariyatti (studying the Buddha teaching), savana (listening), paripuccha (well-rounded examination and cross-examination, literally: well-rounded asking/analyzing), and pubbayoga (previous practice of vipassana). Then the book mentioned the importance of samma_dit.th.i as the preceding factor of n~a_na. "one knows samma-dit.th.i as samma_dit.th.i, micchdit.th.i as micchadit.th.i. That knowledge is samma-dit.th.i. Then repeat for one knows samma…(another 7 magga factors) as samma…, knows miccha…(another 7 magga factors) as miccha… That knowledge is samma…. The writer (also A.Supee) then emphasizes on importance of n~a_na(panna) by pointing out that is the reason why the book of patisambhidamagga is starting with n~a_nakatha. The introduction then ended with a quote from san.gi_tisutta, dighanikaya/patikavaggo, from the section of fours: 4 factors of attaining sotapana. 1) Association with the wise (sappurissam.sevo) 2) dhamma listening (saddhammasasavanam.) 3) proper/wise/thorough consideration (yonisomanasikaro) <>, and 4) practice dhamma according to dhamma (dhammanudhammapatipat.t.i) << from atthakatha: this refers to 4 satipatthana, ekayanamagga, pubbabha_gamagga(magga at the beginning)>>. <> 14179 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > it made me wonder - Are there any scriptures about > 'differing levels > of responsibility' with Kamma? For example, if a > child of seven > years goes around with a rock killing many crabs on > the beach, or > steals something from a shop.... The scriptures talk about the relative severity of kammic fruit for various types of actions, but probably not to the extent that you're asking. On the polar extreme of heinous crimes, there is probably some commentary analyzing the nuances of kammic results, but for misdemeanors and less severe crimes, probabably not too much is said. To me, lack of in depth commentary on kamma makes sense because : 1) kamma is complex: conditioned by so many factors, including a time feedback loop component, that it's impossible to understand completely, if only for the practical reason that there are infinite causal factors and no time to examine the proportionate effect of each one. The best we can do is know which causal factors have the greatest influence on action. 2) Because computers and cpu's, the brains of computers can perform complex tasks, there's an illusion of intelligence. My computer architecture professor used to frequently say in class, "There is no little man inside your computer." Similarly, there is a tendency for people to want to believe there is some kind of intelligent force behind kamma. To paraphrase my professor, there is no board of kamma directors who sit behind every action and deliberate over the subtle nuances of the causal factors and declare a judgement of what type of fruit results. The complexity of kamma is due to the number of input factors that condition it, but we need not be overwhelmed or frustrated by the inability to completely understand all of the subtle nuances. It's only natural due to complexity. 3) It's more important to focus on controlling those important causal factors that we have influence over, namely right view and right intention. By maximizing and fully developing our potential for right view and right intention, we know that much wholesome fruit will result from this, even though due to kammic complexity we don't know EXACTLY all the details and subtle nuances. The important thing is to fully understand: a) wholesome intentions and right view produce wholesome results b) wholesome intentions and WRONG view produce mixed results. This is an important corollary that buddhists often misunderstand, believing that wholesome intention is the most influential factor in kammic fruit. To give an extreme example, rednecks who hunt for sport with a wholesome intention of having some fun, with no explicit malice/unwholesome intention towards animals, are reaping boat loads of bad kamma due to wrong view. c) unwholesome intention + wrong view produces unwholesome results To recap: important thing is to develop wholesome intention and right view. Does it really matter that we don't fully understand the shape and form of the wholesome results that will inevitably follow? 4) Even for an enlightened being, they will unintentionally cause some harm while living in this world. That's dukkha. As for the relative demerits and nuances of unwholesome kamma, again, is it really important to know the degrees of undesirable conseqeuences? The important thing is that we know eliminating (to whatever extent) wrong view and wrong intention will minimize the harm we cause. > The attribution of responsibility of kammic acts > seems so relentless, > and I wonder if anything softens it? > My view is that at a micro level of operation, there is absolutely no mitigating or softening unwholesome kammic fruits. Kamma, like any other natural law, is not acting with an intelligent force behind it that recognizes higher level entities (justice, people, morality). To speak more plainly, the impersonal nature of kamma does not allow for us to do some "wholesome" action to cancel out an "unwholesome" action, as some interpretations of kammic law in various forms of religions might imply. But from a higher level of abstraction, there can be a perception of "softening" of unwholesome kammic fruit. For example, say we perform an abundance of wholesome action and relatively little unwholesome action, the results of the unwholesome action, although still there in full force, would have a proportionately less severe perceived impact. No cancellation of kamma taking place, no energy is magically created or destroyed, just a perception due to relative proportion is altered. On a slight tangent: Isn't it interesting how we always make judgements like: - I had a good day/bad day. - he's a good guy/bad guy - I'm in a good mood/bad mood - I'm having a good life/bad life. One of the consequences of dhamma practice is that I rarely experience these kinds of views any more. Attention to impermanence, dukkha, anatta has a way of making things soften, dissolve. How this insight relates to kammic fruit? My view and perception of kamma is shifting to a more low level, a more raw perception of a natural law acting one moment after another without the unnatural boundaries imposed by higher level abstractions like morality, justice, etc. Anatta isn't just about solidifed perception of "people" entities. Other entities like "morality", "justice", are also mental objects that we personify, solidify and cling to - contrary to the Buddha teaching us to not to see these entities "as I, mine, my self". -fk 14180 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Goggy I enjoyed reading your very informative reply to Christine. In your reply you mention the 5 benefits of walking meditation as given by the Buddha. As you may have seen, the subject of walking meditation has come up in another thread with Howard. Do you have a reference to the sutta where the 5 benefits are mentioned? I would like to read more about it. Thanks. Jon --- goglerr wrote: > Dear Group, > > Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > path of practice. > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > _____________________________________________ > G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned > in > The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one–way path for > the > purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of > the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 > foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' > (monk) is > mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of the > Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when > developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the > one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of > course, > they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. We > have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of > dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative > wisdom will develop) is the priority. > > Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the contemplation/observation > of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, > feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind-objects. > > In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha > continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully > aware, > and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the > world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not > lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' > the > sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in-control or > non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. Rather, > the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this > arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, we > will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will > snow-ball to right liberation. > > Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here > a > bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an empty > hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, > and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes > in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation > monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, may > it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. > Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is > what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that > comfortable for > many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. > Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking or > even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when > walking, > a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he > understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand > `I am > sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying > down'; or he > understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha also > mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good > stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) > strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing between > sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) > builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the > Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, > he > was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha > intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking > meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. > > There are some people who say something like these `just be aware > of > our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or > whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily > life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, > bhikkhus, > a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and > returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking > away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his arms, > who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his > outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), > who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, and > tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; > who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, falling > asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that > easy > though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than not > the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. > > A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech > and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as > the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for > social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental cultivation. > Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, > where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake and > waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental hindrances > will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development > difficult. > > A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. > The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, the > pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us to > avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had > trodden. > `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed > One...and said to him: > "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good > friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." > "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, > that > is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a > bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to > expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold > Path."' (SN 45:3) > And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide us > on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, > the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to > rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher – and I humbly say, this > is > compulsary. > > So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are > compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But > mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for > Nibbana. > _______________________________________________________ > Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > Nyanaponika Thera says: > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > capacity of leading to effacement." > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > essential, not Samatha? > _________________________________________________ > G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 > wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama and > Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and the > latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not > enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. > We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > any > paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > `tranquilizers'. > But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After > attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' > object, > from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 > Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and > Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. > ________________________________________________________ > Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - > but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the > defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent task > in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this > eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I > have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of us, > and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that > doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of > this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of > controlling progress? > ______________________________________________ > G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means > those > who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by > the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, jealousy, > pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The > Buddha also said `I > only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we > should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and > the end > of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so > many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of urgency, > way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, understading > etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or > whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get > it'. > __________________________________________________ > I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on > such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is > what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to practice........ > > metta, > Christine > ________________________________________________ > That's all for now, Chris----byee > > Goglerr 14181 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults I just remembered a couple of nifty things: 1) the complexity of the full working of kamma is one of the "imponderables", things that the Buddha discouraged us from speculating or overanalyzing or else we'd go mad. 2) the noble 8fold factor of right effort is awesome: If practiced as intended, 24/7, it automatically has the effect of maximizing wholesome kamma and minimizing unwholesome kamma, in proportion of course to how well the other 7 factors of the path are developed. Had I remembered this earlier, I could have spared you all my long winded original response. -fk 14182 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/5/02 6:46:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Howard, I didn't completely follow what you said about desirable and > undesirable results. These terms (desirable/undesirable) come from a > commentary cited in CMA and refer to 'conventional values'. =============================== I took your questions to pertain to the objects of kammically resultant mindstates (and I understand all discernments of objects not directly volitionally produced as involving kamma vipaka to some degree), and whether or not they are inherently desirable/undesirable. My position is that no such objects are inherently desirable or undesirable - it all depends on our predispositions. First of all, I take 'desirable' to really mean typically experienced as pleasant, and 'undesirable' to really mean typically experienced as unpleasant. Now, actually, what I think happens is that what we actually find pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral are bodily sensations, sensations following upon contacts with paramattha dhammas of various sorts. We then associate such affective response (of pleasure, displeasure, or neutrality) with, first, the sensations, then the dhammas (sights, sounds, tastes, odors, touches, thoughts/memories/emotions) that produced the sensations, and, then, derivatively, with conventional objects mentally contructed from those paramattha dhammas, the conventional objects being seen as desirable (when the sensation is felt as pleasant), undesirable (when the sensation is felt as unpleasant), or as neutral (when the sensation is felt as neutral). My position is that what we actually and directly find pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral are bodily sensations (which we then associate first with the conditioning objects, and then with conventional objects). For example, we experience pain from a bee sting. The pain is felt as unpleasant, and we then think of the sharp touch that caused the pain (i.e., the bee sting) and the bee, itself, as undesirable. Or we experience rapture after attaining the first jhana, the rapture being felt as pleasant, and we then respond by considering both the rapture and the jhana as desirable. Or we experience an odd tingling and warmth sensation in the heart/throat/neck area after hearing (and understanding) the sounds of being complemented by someone of the opposite sex. If that is our make-up, we feel this sensation as pleasant, and we respond by considering the tingling and warmth, and, secondarily, the sounds heard, and, thirdly, both the complement and the complementer as all being "desirable". But the core of the whole process is in feeling sensations as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, and my main point was that *which* sensations are felt as pleasant, which as unpleasant, and which as neutral, is due to kammic accumulations or predispositions, and are not *inherently* one or the other of these. I hope this clarifies my thoughts a bit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14183 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight Dear Dan, There is a lot of material, research and many helpful references in your 2 posts. There are also many areas that it would be useful to discuss further and I’m just wondering where to start (and also hoping others will be picking up points for discussion). As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday: “That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep understanding of characteristics that appear now”. ..... When Nina or someone else we respect says this, it may sound like they are just saying it or being modest. Or we may think that even if it’s like that for them, we’ve had some particular vipassana insights or other experiences confirmed by our studies. I’ll never forget the shock when I first heard friends like Nina saying that “we don’t even understand seeing or visible object at this moment”. With this in mind, I’d like to look at your comments about ‘tender insight’ first. (aside to Christine - like your shampoo and conditioning distraction, tender insight also makes me think of the book “Tender is the Night”.) Sorry, Dan;-) --- onco111 wrote:> > In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX > 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of > phenomena such as .... When we read these quotes about the “beginner”, we have to read them in the full context of the development of insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as beginning stages or ‘tender insight’ (tiirana vipassanaa) to differentiate them from ‘insight as power’ (balava vipassanaa). However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the second stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent without any ignorance or doubt.At the third stage, panna knows the rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling away.In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, noticing or focussing on these phenomena. A.Sujin gives a good summary of the stages of insight in “Survey of Paramattha Dhammas” too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... > With insight? > "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, > methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics > [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to > him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being > previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they > are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like > dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), > like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an > awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage > (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, > like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. > > "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is > known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104] .... We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I’m discussing with Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn’t the clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa in practice without any doubt, then it’s impossible to really understand these more refined levels of wisdom. .... > "And now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, > ten imperfections of insight might arise in him. ...illumination due > to insight...knowledge due to insight...rapturous happiness due to > insight...tranquillity due to insight...bliss due to > insight...faith...well-exerted energy...well-founded > mindfulness...equanimity...attachment due to insight." [Vism XX 105- > 122]. > > [An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all these 'due to > insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of the first > line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, > ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The translation has > a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a beginner of insight > (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the previous pages), a > number of phenomena might arise in the course of meditation. These > phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of insight." In other words, does the "with this tender insight" refer to > the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on > that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa > vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)] ..... Dan, I’ll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. Meanwhile, surely the discussion is about the conditions for these kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not arise at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why it is ‘tender’ insight and not a power. Remember, only the sotapanna is on the path of ‘no return’, so to speak. The person ‘with this tender insght’ refers to the level of vipassana. Person or sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, if I misunderstand any of your comments here > > When formations are seen with insight thus as anicca, anatta, and > dukkha, there is no way calm does not arise. With the calm there may > also arise any of a number of mental phenomena. These phenomena may > also arise from a manufactured calm in the course of, say, a Goenka > or Mahasi meditation retreat. But their arising may or may not have > anything to do with insight. When they are induced by insight, > Buddhagosa calls them "imperfections". When they arise from in the > course of a meditation retreat, they are frequently called something > like "way stations". Whether they arise due to insight or due to a > manufactured calm, they have tremendous seductive power to pull the > meditator away from the path toward attachment. This is especially > true when the insight is weak, or the phenomena arise more from a > manufactured calm and less from insight. ..... A few comments in brief: 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 2. ‘Imperfections’ or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for akusala. 3. What is ‘manufactured’ calm? If the citta is not kusala, even though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), there cannot be calm. 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop. 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to cling and ‘distract’. 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest of your snipped post. ***** I’ve already said too much, I’m sure and I’ve possibly misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't a condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, but wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first. Sarah ===== 14184 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Different practices Frank (and Christine) I agree with the thrust of your post below and particularly where you point out that "the highest form of honoring the Buddha and Dhamma is developing and practicing the 8fold path". However, not all acts that we would tend to regard as ritualistic are necessarily that. The other day I came across the following passage in the commentary to the Samannaphala Sutta (D.2) in the translation by Bh. Bodhi, 'The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship' (p. 101), where it mentions the circumambulation of a cetiya and veneration at a Bodhi tree. Both the cetiya and the Bodhi tree are seen as representative of the Buddha himself (I believe cetiyas are generally built over relics of the Buddha or some other token of him). Chris, you may be interested in the reference to the 4 points of the cetiya, which we wondered about at the cetiya at Anuradhapura (but no, I have no idea why 4 points for a large one, 8 points for a small one!). "At the time for the almsround he rises and keeping in mind his meditation subject, he takes his robe and bowl, leaves his dwelling place, and goes to the terrace of the cetiya, still attending to the meditation subject. … Having climbed to the terrace, he should circumambulate the cetiya three times, venerating it at four points if it is a large cetiya and at eight points if it is a small one. "After venerating the cetiya, the bhikkhu should go to the terrace of the Bodhi tree and venerate the Bodhi tree, displaying a humble manner just as if he were in the presence of the Exalted Buddha himself. Having thus venerated both the cetiya and the Bodhi tree, … he robes himself just outside the village and enters the village for alms." Jon --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Christine, > I'm pretty sure the Buddha and his original > followers did not wear cotton wrist bracelets. They > also didn't have statues of Buddha that they > circumambulated. > Many of these peripheral ceremonial aspects of > "buddhism" (chanting, incense, string bracelets, > fortune telling, praying for protection, blessings) > probably originated and evolved to ensure the > institutional survival of Buddhism competing against > other relgions purporting to offer protection by > higher powers, blessings, etc. In a way, these > peripheral elements may have played a strong role in > the longevity and survival of Buddhism. > I'm from the school of thinking that the highest > form of honoring the Buddha and Dhamma is developing > and practicing the 8fold path. If burning incense, > wearing string bracelets, etc, is helpful in reminding > one to do that, then MAYBE it's useful for some people > to that extent, although my perception is that > reliance on rites and rituals is more likely to result > in empty excercises devoid of right view. I also can't > help pointing out that burning incense is bad for the > environment, a waste of resources, smells bad, is bad > for your lungs, and bad for the lungs of the people > around you. > As for the efficacy of mantra (having supernatural > powerful effects), I'm not necessarily skeptical as > many modern scientifically inclined buddhists tend to > be, but I view it the same way as I do supernormal > powers - it's not the goal of buddhism, and it's not > necessary to rely on that for liberation or developing > the 8fold path. > > -fk > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Dear All, … > > Another practice I participated in but didn't quite > > understand at the > > time, was walking around a stupa in a clockwise > > direction. On > > occasion we did this three times, and I was told > > this is an act of > > merit. Not really sure about this either, why it is > > considered an > > act of merit (say compared to offering service, food > > or money to > > others). Any information would be appreciated. > > > > metta, > > Christine 14185 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Dear Dan, Dan: “In the second case, there is a directed, purposefully cultivated one- pointedness arising from fixing the mind on a chosen object. In contrast, with the first casethe sign arises upon seeing a flower, or a white cloth, or the moon, or... The object spontaneously acts as a kasina when insight arises and when the characteristics of one- pointedness concentration are recognized because of previous cultivation. But what kind of insight could "spontaneously" give rise to the arising of the sign in an object seen? "Quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unprofitable things he enters upon and dwells in the first jhana." [Vbh.245, cited in Vism. IV, 79].” ***** I’ve only (unfairly, I know) taken one extract from your second post. Let me just add that with regard to the development of samatha, I think similar considerations apply to the development of vipassana. There cannot be the high levels of upacara samadhi or jhana without the right understanding of the object of calm and the basic development for a very long time first. (I agreed with your final comments about non-selection.) I’d like to share the following extract from a tape of K.Sujin which I listened to recently. I’ll be interested to hear any comments you have (and please re-quote any parts from your other messages if you wish): ***** “When there is some understanding that the wholesome and calm moments are so brief and infrequent, samatha bhavana can be developed by knowing which object can be a condition for calm. This is by understanding, not by wishing or focussing. By understanding the value of skilful cittas, it will be a condition for skilful reflections, such as thinking about others with metta. If there is concentrating on an object and wanting to develop more concentration, there is no detachment at these times from clinging and conceit. Samatha can only be developed when there is understanding more and more of how much attachment there is to sesnsuous objects. In other words, it’s not just the object that is important, but for it to be a moment of samatha bhavana, there must be right understanding (at the level of samatha) at that moment. There can be reflection on death with or without understanding of how it calms the mind. When the citta is kusala, there will be more and more calm which may lead to stages of wholesome concentration with calm and understanding. Again it has to be right from the very beginning. A moment of awareness is different from a moment with no awareness. Understanding knows the difference without any selection. By developing satipatthana and samatha, this is the way that we learn what our ‘nature’ is, what kind of carita (person) one is. It depends on individual accumulations whether metta or marana sati (recollection on death) or even reflection on earth or solidity will condition calm and kusala cittas. For example, with regards to earth, we fight just to get ‘solidity’. reflecting wisely on the importance we attach to ‘earth’ can be a condition for calm. Are we friendly and ready to help? Do we see the value of metta now?. There cannot be metta when there is craving. The deeds and speech may be the same, but without the attachment. Like a mother to child, without attachment. The purpose is to be detached. If we select breath, it suggests a wanting of that object. What is the purpose of concentrating on breath? It’s useless without panna, otherwise it merely conditions attachment.” ***** Sarah ===== 14186 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 4:22pm Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi Howard, --- Howard wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Okay, rupas. But what about tinglings, itches, pressures, and > pains? > Are these also rupas (and/or conceptually grouped pkgs of rupas) or are > these > vedana. Goenka et al seem to consider them vedana, but I suspect that is > > miscategorization. > ----------------------------------------------------- Interesting questions and a useful discussion. I think what we call the tinglings and pressures are rupas (esp. motion/pressure - air element). The pain is mostly vedana, dukkha. It’s called bodily feeling because, like the kaya vinnana (body consciousness) it accompanies, it is experiencing rupas at different parts of the body. In other words, they are conditioned by impact on the bodysense. Like we discussed with seeing consciousness, the body consciousness and painful feeling are akusala vipaka, immediately conditioned by the unpleasant object coming into range through the bodysense. Here the unpleasant object is the temperature (eg too hot, too cold), solidity (eg too hard, too soft) or pressure being experienced.The pleasant and unpleasant/painful bodily feelings only accompany kaya vinnana (body consciousness) and there cannot be indifferent feeling experiencing these rupas (unlike the other sense experiences, such as seeing, which are always acompanied by indifferent feeling, regardless of the object).. As you suggest, usually when we refer to tinglings or pressures or pains, we’re talking about ‘conceptually grouped packages’ (good expression) and it’s difficult to know the different phenomena precisely, but at least there can be the direct understanding of the distinction between concepts and realities and between namas and rupas. ..... > The> > > vedana (feelings) are nama accompanying the cittas at every moment. > Let me > > quote from a post I wrote a while ago to Manji: > > ***** > > When the feelings are summarised into 5 kinds (commonly), they are: > > > > a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) > > b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) > > c) happy feeling (somanassa) > > d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) > > e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, but this is still partly ambiguous. Items c) and d) are > clear to > me, being mental feelings, being unambiguously on the "nama side". Items > a), > b), and e), however, could still be understood in more than one way. On > the > one hand, they could refer to various physical sensations *felt* as > pleasant, > unpleasant, or neutrally. ..... For a) and b) if there is the idea that they are ‘physical sensations *felt*’, it is wrong, to my understanding. They are namas, arising with body consciousness and do the feeling. They have no other function than to feel or experience the ‘taste’ of the rupas. With regard to e) indifferent feeling, this doesn’t arise when rupas are being experienced through the body-sense. ..... >On this reading, there would be *multitudes* > of > differing vedana - a huge aggregate. On the other hand, they could refer > > merely to instances of pleasantness, unpleasantness, and indifference > *conditioned* by sensory contact, with the instances all differing due > to the > differences in the sensory contacts that conditioned their arising. > (This > reading would also allow for a huge aggregate, but the differences in > instances is more indirect in this case, being based not on the feelings > > themselves, but on the conditioning contact.) I suspect that it is this > *latter* reading that was intended by the Buddha, but I don't find this > issue > crystal clear. ..... Certainly as there is such a variety of cittas, there is a great variety of vedana too and its importance is reflected by having its ‘own’ khandha. You’ve lost me with some of your other comments here. The vedana experiences the ‘taste’, and accompanies the cittas cognizing their objects as discussed. Phassa (contact) also accompanies each of these cittas too, contacting the object, of course. Let me know if I’ve misunderstood you. This has been helpful for me to reflect on. Sarah ===== 14187 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:15pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Shakti Thanks for telling us about your background and past interest in the dhamma. A very interesting story! I hope you'll stick around and share more. --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > Dear Sarah, ... > On another note, Mr Goenka will be here in Missoula, Montana (where I > live) in a few days. He will pass thru Missoula as part of his North > American tour where he will travel thru different parts of Canada and > the USA. He will conduct a one day sit for old students and then that > night give a public talk at the university of Montana. I will be > sitting with about 50 other old students here. I will let you all know > what that was like later next week. I have heard that he will be > answering questions - so now maybe your opportunity. Any burning > questions?????? No *burning* questions for Mr Goenka, but several I would be very interested to hear his answers to. I have put one of them below. Naturally, it reflects my own understanding/biases rather than any part of his approach, and furthermore it won't be in the appropriate Goenka terminology, but I am sure you can see the thrust of the question and so be able to phrase it appropriately, if a chance arises. Thanks. Jon Q. What effect does awareness developed in previous lifetimes have on the arising of awareness in this lifetime (after we have met the teachings) and, in particular, on the likely objects of any awarness arising in this lifetime? Do different people have potentially different levels of awareness of different objects? 14188 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Hi Frank, I really liked your post - IMHO you should write more posts, more often. Nothing special to comment on or question, yet. I smiled at the 'Board of Kamma Directors' - would that be a worse Office to hold than Moderator of a Yahoo List? :) I am still not settled in my mind about how the mechanism, procedure, protocol, process - call it what you will - for assessing and recording a 'persons' good and bad Intentional Action works. I think I need to do a little more reflection over what I have been taught on rebirth and paticcasamupadda, and what I am currently studying on Conditions. I don't really want to know what result follows which set of causes. I don't want to know how to evade consequences of my actions. But I want to be able to trust that what I have been taught is true, and works in a just, rational, logical, consistent manner. At this point, I do not feel that. You've been a good help though Frank, making me think more clearly, thanks. metta, Chris --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Chris, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > it made me wonder - Are there any scriptures about > > 'differing levels > > of responsibility' with Kamma? For example, if a > > child of seven > > years goes around with a rock killing many crabs on > > the beach, or > > steals something from a shop.... > > The scriptures talk about the relative severity of > kammic fruit for various types of actions, but > probably not to the extent that you're asking. On the > polar extreme of heinous crimes, there is probably > some commentary analyzing the nuances of kammic > results, but for misdemeanors and less severe crimes, > probabably not too much is said. > To me, lack of in depth commentary on kamma makes > sense because : > 1) kamma is complex: conditioned by so many factors, > including a time feedback loop component, that it's > impossible to understand completely, if only for the > practical reason that there are infinite causal > factors and no time to examine the proportionate > effect of each one. The best we can do is know which > causal factors have the greatest influence on action. > 2) Because computers and cpu's, the brains of > computers can perform complex tasks, there's an > illusion of intelligence. My computer architecture > professor used to frequently say in class, "There is > no little man inside your computer." Similarly, there > is a tendency for people to want to believe there is > some kind of intelligent force behind kamma. To > paraphrase my professor, there is no board of kamma > directors who sit behind every action and deliberate > over the subtle nuances of the causal factors and > declare a judgement of what type of fruit results. The > complexity of kamma is due to the number of input > factors that condition it, but we need not be > overwhelmed or frustrated by the inability to > completely understand all of the subtle nuances. It's > only natural due to complexity. > 3) It's more important to focus on controlling those > important causal factors that we have influence over, > namely right view and right intention. By maximizing > and fully developing our potential for right view and > right intention, we know that much wholesome fruit > will result from this, even though due to kammic > complexity we don't know EXACTLY all the details and > subtle nuances. The important thing is to fully > understand: > a) wholesome intentions and right view produce > wholesome results > b) wholesome intentions and WRONG view produce mixed > results. This is an important corollary that buddhists > often misunderstand, believing that wholesome > intention is the most influential factor in kammic > fruit. To give an extreme example, rednecks who hunt > for sport with a wholesome intention of having some > fun, with no explicit malice/unwholesome intention > towards animals, are reaping boat loads of bad kamma > due to wrong view. > c) unwholesome intention + wrong view produces > unwholesome results > > To recap: important thing is to develop wholesome > intention and right view. Does it really matter that > we don't fully understand the shape and form of the > wholesome results that will inevitably follow? > 4) Even for an enlightened being, they will > unintentionally cause some harm while living in this > world. That's dukkha. As for the relative demerits and > nuances of unwholesome kamma, again, is it really > important to know the degrees of undesirable > conseqeuences? The important thing is that we know > eliminating (to whatever extent) wrong view and wrong > intention will minimize the harm we cause. > > > > The attribution of responsibility of kammic acts > > seems so relentless, > > and I wonder if anything softens it? > > > > My view is that at a micro level of operation, there > is absolutely no mitigating or softening unwholesome > kammic fruits. Kamma, like any other natural law, is > not acting with an intelligent force behind it that > recognizes higher level entities (justice, people, > morality). To speak more plainly, the impersonal > nature of kamma does not allow for us to do some > "wholesome" action to cancel out an "unwholesome" > action, as some interpretations of kammic law in > various forms of religions might imply. > But from a higher level of abstraction, there can > be a perception of "softening" of unwholesome kammic > fruit. For example, say we perform an abundance of > wholesome action and relatively little unwholesome > action, the results of the unwholesome action, > although still there in full force, would have a > proportionately less severe perceived impact. No > cancellation of kamma taking place, no energy is > magically created or destroyed, just a perception due > to relative proportion is altered. > > On a slight tangent: > Isn't it interesting how we always make judgements > like: > - I had a good day/bad day. > - he's a good guy/bad guy > - I'm in a good mood/bad mood > - I'm having a good life/bad life. > > One of the consequences of dhamma practice is that I > rarely experience these kinds of views any more. > Attention to impermanence, dukkha, anatta has a way of > making things soften, dissolve. > How this insight relates to kammic fruit? My view > and perception of kamma is shifting to a more low > level, a more raw perception of a natural law acting > one moment after another without the unnatural > boundaries imposed by higher level abstractions like > morality, justice, etc. Anatta isn't just about > solidifed perception of "people" entities. Other > entities like "morality", "justice", are also mental > objects that we personify, solidify and cling to - > contrary to the Buddha teaching us to not to see these > entities "as I, mine, my self". > > -fk 14189 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Howard You don't say exactly which part of the sutta supports the phenomenalist approach, but my guess is that it would be the part that reads: "a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight;… . He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; … . He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; … . He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; … . Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'." According to the PTS translation of the same sutta (on which, by the way, the translation you have quoted is clearly based), 'conceived of' here is a translation of our old friend 'mannana'/'mannati' that we have discussed previously in the context of the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Discourse on the Root of Existence). As we know from that sutta, 'conceiving of' is something found in the untrained worldling but not in the enlightened ones. It means not seeing dhammas correctly. To me, this sutta is saying, the Buddha *knows about* what is, he doesn't *conceive about* anything. This I think is made clear by the final verse passage: "Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed As truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched In their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. Well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], This barb I beheld whereon humans are hooked, impaled. "I know, I see, 'tis verily so" -- no such clinging for the Tathagatas." Jon --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all - > > Having made a few references from time to time of how > phenomenalism > provides me with a helpful conceptual platform for viewing the Dhamma, I > > decided to post a copy of the Kalakarama Sutta, from the Book of Fours > in the > Anguttara Nikaya. To me, it is the premier example of "Buddhist > phenomenalism" (with the Bahiya Sutta taking the silver medal). The > following > is a tranlation I found on the net. [An entire booklet dvoted to a study > of > this sutta is Magic of the Mind, by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda.] The sutta > follows > (The bracketed material is *not* part of the sutta, but was added by the > > person who provided the web article from which this was taken): > ************************** The Kalakarama Sutta. [The Setting.] At one time the Exalted One was staying in Saketa in Kalaka's monastery. There the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." "Revered Sir," replied those monks in assent. [As a Vedic or Greek god would talk, declaring omniscience,] the Exalted One said: "Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and humans--whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind--all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever in the world . . . of gods and humans, -- whatsoever is seen, . . . by the mind, -- that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. [Now he denies alternatives to be construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of Fours.] If I were to say: `Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and humans--whatsoever is seen ... by the mind--all that I do not know'--it would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I both know it and know it not' -- that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I neither know it nor am ignorant of it' --it would be a fault in me. [The Buddha now declares how one uses the senses while avoiding the `apprehender' and the`apprehended'.] Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an `unseen', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-seeing', he does not conceive about a seer. He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of `an unheard', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-hearing', he does not conceive about a hearer. He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; he does not conceive of a`thing-worth-sensing', he does not conceive about one who senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-cognizing', he does not conceive about one who cognizes. Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'. Moreover, than he who is `Such', there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare."[Now verses on how ordinary persons use their senses, sometimes called `the fantasy of normalcy'.] Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], whereon humans are hooked, impaled."I know, I see, `tis verily so"--no such clinging for the Tathagatas. ******************************** 14190 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Larry, --- <> wrote: > Hi Sarah, thanks for your tidy list of responses. Hope your wrist appreciated the curbing of words;-) One further question. > With regard to the CMA quote on desirable and undesirable objects of > vipaka cittas: > > 1. why are there no mind door vipaka cittas? there are, eg tadarammana cittas, but not dvi panca vinnana cittas.Why not? Because eyes, ears and so on are not in the mind;-) (silly answer- I don’t know more) > > 2. how can the bare data of sensory sensations be desirable or > undesirable? Red isn't particularly desirable or undesirable but blood > is. Rather than talk about red or blood, can I just say that what is seen, heard or tasted at this moment is inherently desirable or undesirable. The quote from CMA was a good one. This is a favourite topic of Dan’s? How can we say/know the noise heard now is necessarily an undesirable one? We can’t know and there can be attachment to what is undesirable and the reverse. However, we give examples of ‘desirable’ and ‘undesirable’ objects, as would be commonly pereived or expected (eg noise of thunder, undesirable and so on) just to show there are these two categories. If we look at a pool of blood, we could say it’s akusala vipaka, seeing unpleasant visible object at the time. Really, only a Buddha (or key disciples, I should think?), could really know at any given moment. > > thanks, hope your wrist is better It’s making a good recovery. I took it out for a treat (and retreat from the computer) today and let it have a massage. The Chinese masseur was rather intrigued by the dirty bit of thread still left on the same wrist from the trip to Sri Lanka. He kept giving it perplexed looks, but I really didn’t think my poor Cantonese was up to explaining about Buddhist pirit ceremonies in Sri lanka and why I’ve become rather attached to this thread;-)... Anyway, the wrist enjoyed the outing. Sarah ===== 14191 From: sarahdhhk Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 7:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Hi Chris & Frank, --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Frank, > > I really liked your post - IMHO you should write more posts, more > often. > Nothing special to comment on or question, yet. I smiled at > the 'Board of Kamma Directors' - would that be a worse Office to hold > than Moderator of a Yahoo List? :) Good to see you both in such witty form;-) S 14192 From: Ruth Klein Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 7:54pm Subject: introduction Hello. I joined this group yesterday and have been amazed at the number and depths of the messages received so far! Just for that I felt it better to introduce myself, rather than lurk - even though I probably won't have much to post later. I have been slowly coming around to Buddhist teachings. It's taken me almost 3 years (talk about wading in at the shallow end!) and I keep exploring. The past four months I have really committed myself to practice, though not so much study. Later this summer I will be going on my first retreat - at Wat Metta in CA. I joined this group while searching for a sangha of support; I'm travelling for the summer and feel cut off from my home community. Well, I'll be around, reading more than anything... asking questions... Namaste, Ruth 14193 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sarah - I'll excerpt and reply in context to two parts of the following post of yours. (By in large, I think we pretty much have the same understanding on this issue.) 1) You write: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting questions and a useful discussion. I think what we call the tinglings and pressures are rupas (esp. motion/pressure - air element). The pain is mostly vedana, dukkha. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I tend to disagree on this, though I'm far from certain. I think that pains come in a wide variety, in terms of both degree and kind. I think that they are rupas. Pains of some kinds, particularly of light to moderate intensity can be experienced (even by "normal" people ;-) as pleasant. Even intense pain can be experienced by some people in some contexts as pleasant. What sort of pain, and how much, will be felt as pleasant,unpleasant, or neutral seems to be a very individual matter. I tend to think that the experiencing of pain as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is the vedanic element, not the pain itself, which would be rupa. I stand to be corrected on this. I certainly can see the *possibility* that, for example, a feeling of tremendous crushing pressure and heaviness in the chest (from a heart attack) would be the rupa, and the pain could be the associated vedana. However, this just doesn't quite match my experience of pain. I can easily distinguish between crushing pressure and heaviness, on the one hand, and actual physical pain (which *hurts*), with *both* of these being completely physical, completely rupic (though, of course, discerned by vi~n~nana) and "tasted" with the vedana of unpleasantness. --------------------------------------------------------------- It’s called bodily feeling because, like the kaya vinnana (body consciousness) it accompanies, it is experiencing rupas at different parts of the body. In other words, they are conditioned by impact on the bodysense. Like we discussed with seeing consciousness, the body consciousness and painful feeling are akusala vipaka, immediately conditioned by the unpleasant object coming into range through the bodysense. Here the unpleasant object is the temperature (eg too hot, too cold), solidity (eg too hard, too soft) or pressure being experienced.The pleasant and unpleasant/painful bodily feelings only accompany kaya vinnana (body consciousness) and there cannot be indifferent feeling experiencing these rupas (unlike the other sense experiences, such as seeing, which are always acompanied by indifferent feeling, regardless of the object).. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 2) You write: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >On this reading, there would be *multitudes* > of > differing vedana - a huge aggregate. On the other hand, they could refer > > merely to instances of pleasantness, unpleasantness, and indifference > *conditioned* by sensory contact, with the instances all differing due > to the > differences in the sensory contacts that conditioned their arising. > (This > reading would also allow for a huge aggregate, but the differences in > instances is more indirect in this case, being based not on the feelings > > themselves, but on the conditioning contact.) I suspect that it is this > *latter* reading that was intended by the Buddha, but I don't find this > issue > crystal clear. ..... Certainly as there is such a variety of cittas, there is a great variety of vedana too and its importance is reflected by having its ‘own’ khandha. You’ve lost me with some of your other comments here. The vedana experiences the ‘taste’, and accompanies the cittas cognizing their objects as discussed. Phassa (contact) also accompanies each of these cittas too, contacting the object, of course. Let me know if I’ve misunderstood you. This has been helpful for me to reflect on. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry I was unclear here. I was attempting to lay out the two alternative views of "vedana" here. The first of these , let's call it the "Goenka view", sees an aggregate of thousands upon thousands of categories of vedana, each of which is a bodily sensation such as an itch, tingle, pain, subtle vibration, etc, with each *perceived* as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but it being the sensations themselves, and not the affective flavor, that are the vedana. The second of these, let's call it the "traditional view", sees the aggregate of vedana as consisting of instances of pleasant "taste", unpleasant "taste", and neutral "taste" conditioned by thousands of alternative bodily sensations (all rupa) such as the "itch, tingle, pain, subtle vibration, etc" enumerated above, and considered there as vedana. In this view, the conditioning sensations are rupa, and it is only the resulting affective "taste" that is vedana. I suspect that it is this "traditional view" what the Buddha actually presented. The two views are *close* to interchangeable, possibly because it is so hard for us to sort out and separate bodily sensation from the associated affective taste. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/6/02 4:23:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- Howard wrote: > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Okay, rupas. But what about tinglings, itches, pressures, and > > pains? > > Are these also rupas (and/or conceptually grouped pkgs of rupas) or are > > these > > vedana. Goenka et al seem to consider them vedana, but I suspect that is > > > > miscategorization. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Interesting questions and a useful discussion. I think what we call the > tinglings and pressures are rupas (esp. motion/pressure - air element). > The pain is mostly vedana, dukkha. It’s called bodily feeling because, > like the kaya vinnana (body consciousness) it accompanies, it is > experiencing rupas at different parts of the body. In other words, they > are conditioned by impact on the bodysense. Like we discussed with seeing > consciousness, the body consciousness and painful feeling are akusala > vipaka, immediately conditioned by the unpleasant object coming into range > through the bodysense. Here the unpleasant object is the temperature (eg > too hot, too cold), solidity (eg too hard, too soft) or pressure being > experienced.The pleasant and unpleasant/painful bodily feelings only > accompany kaya vinnana (body consciousness) and there cannot be > indifferent feeling experiencing these rupas (unlike the other sense > experiences, such as seeing, which are always acompanied by indifferent > feeling, regardless of the object).. > > As you suggest, usually when we refer to tinglings or pressures or pains, > we’re talking about ‘conceptually grouped packages’ (good expression) and > it’s difficult to know the different phenomena precisely, but at least > there can be the direct understanding of the distinction between concepts > and realities and between namas and rupas. > ..... > > The> > > > vedana (feelings) are nama accompanying the cittas at every moment. > > Let me > > > quote from a post I wrote a while ago to Manji: > > > ***** > > > When the feelings are summarised into 5 kinds (commonly), they are: > > > > > > a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) > > > b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) > > > c) happy feeling (somanassa) > > > d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) > > > e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Okay, but this is still partly ambiguous. Items c) and d) are > > clear to > > me, being mental feelings, being unambiguously on the "nama side". Items > > a), > > b), and e), however, could still be understood in more than one way. On > > the > > one hand, they could refer to various physical sensations *felt* as > > pleasant, > > unpleasant, or neutrally. > ..... > For a) and b) if there is the idea that they are ‘physical sensations > *felt*’, it is wrong, to my understanding. They are namas, arising with > body consciousness and do the feeling. They have no other function than to > feel or experience the ‘taste’ of the rupas. > > With regard to e) indifferent feeling, this doesn’t arise when rupas are > being experienced through the body-sense. > ..... > >On this reading, there would be *multitudes* > > of > > differing vedana - a huge aggregate. On the other hand, they could refer > > > > merely to instances of pleasantness, unpleasantness, and indifference > > *conditioned* by sensory contact, with the instances all differing due > > to the > > differences in the sensory contacts that conditioned their arising. > > (This > > reading would also allow for a huge aggregate, but the differences in > > instances is more indirect in this case, being based not on the feelings > > > > themselves, but on the conditioning contact.) I suspect that it is this > > *latter* reading that was intended by the Buddha, but I don't find this > > issue > > crystal clear. > ..... > Certainly as there is such a variety of cittas, there is a great variety > of vedana too and its importance is reflected by having its ‘own’ khandha. > You’ve lost me with some of your other comments here. The vedana > experiences the ‘taste’, and accompanies the cittas cognizing their > objects as discussed. Phassa (contact) also accompanies each of these > cittas too, contacting the object, of course. Let me know if I’ve > misunderstood you. This has been helpful for me to reflect on. > > Sarah > ===== > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14194 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/6/02 5:57:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > You don't say exactly which part of the sutta supports the phenomenalist > approach, but my guess is that it would be the part that reads: > > "a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight;… . > He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; … . He > does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; … . He > does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; … . > Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena > seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'." > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed, that is the part. That part, as I see it, points out the "emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out he "emptiness of the experiencer". --------------------------------------------------- > > According to the PTS translation of the same sutta (on which, by the way, > the translation you have quoted is clearly based), 'conceived of' here is > a translation of our old friend 'mannana'/'mannati' that we have discussed > previously in the context of the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Discourse on the Root > of Existence). > > As we know from that sutta, 'conceiving of' is something found in the > untrained worldling but not in the enlightened ones. It means not seeing > dhammas correctly. > > To me, this sutta is saying, the Buddha *knows about* what is, he doesn't > *conceive about* anything. This I think is made clear by the final verse > passage: > > "Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed > As truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched > In their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. > Well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], > This barb I beheld whereon humans are hooked, impaled. > "I know, I see, 'tis verily so" -- no such clinging for the Tathagatas." ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of that very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see them differently Accumulations! ------------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14195 From: Ruth Klein Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 9:22pm Subject: RE: Rupa vs Vedana This seems to be a very interesting discussion - but I'm jumping in the middle. Can someone point me to the originating post(s) so I can follow somewhat? Namaste, Ruth 14196 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Rupa vs Vedana Hi, Ruth - Welcome to the list! I've assembled a partial trace of the vedana thread, and I'm sending it directly to you. I hope it will be useful. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/6/02 9:23:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ruth writes: > > This seems to be a very interesting discussion - but I'm jumping in the > middle. Can someone point me to the originating > post(s) so I can follow somewhat? > > Namaste, > > Ruth > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14197 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Thanks Howard, it does clarify considerably. I also re-thought my bewilderment and discovered I had completely forgotten that bodily sensation vipaka is with pleasant or unpleasant feeling. So a comet falling out of the sky and hitting me on the head is not only the sensation of hardness; it is hardness and painfulness. And 'hard and painful' does sound like a kamma result. This brought up another question. Is all pleasant bodily feeling resultant, with no kamma consequences? If so, then all bodily feeling must be resultant and all mental feeling must be javana, and potentially kamma causing. Incidentally, I believe the pleasantness of shape and taste would be mental feeling. what do you think, Larry ps: It just occurred to me that your other point about memory being vipaka could be explained as memory being conditioned by 'accumulations.' 'Accumulations' is a very shadowy subject. I'm wondering if it is both cause and result of javana, and if both javana and vipaka contribute to accumulations. 14198 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not practicing meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal number of imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that there are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold path at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and vegetate. Larry 14199 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Uh, oh!! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/6/02 4:24:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not practicing > meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it > perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal number of > imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that there > are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold path > at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and > vegetate. > > Larry > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14200 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Hey Larry - Frustration and discouragement are natural - welcome to Samsara, The Land of Dukkha...... "not getting what is wanted is dukkha". Thank goodness you weren't struck by discouragement until I started to improve. :) This mob of Buddhists won't all agree totally... That's just the way it is. And they'll only give spoonfulls of teaching, and then expect and require that we explore, find, search, sift, reflect, verify and eventually 'know' for ourselves. Who cares if they don't agree on meditation? Try to find what works for you, take as long as it takes. Check everything against the Tipitaka. Keep what measures up and works, keep an open mind, be kind and patient with yourself - and remember how much benefit you have brought to others by your exploring and struggling with ADL.... Thanks. much metta, Chris --- Larry wrote: > Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not practicing > meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it > perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal number of > imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that there > are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold path > at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and > vegetate. > > Larry 14201 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:25am Subject: There are problems, and then - there are PROBLEMS... Dear Group, For those moments when your life seems colourless and flat, when the world closes in on you, when there seems no point and everything is difficult, when your practice is arid, when understanding won't come at your command, and when the international scene seems gloomy - just remember there are those with worse problems than you.... It's Winter, this is a sub-tropical area, and recently the night-time temperature has dropped to below freezing, so everyone human and non- human is coping the best way they can. Some have tried the geographical escape. I came home unexpectedly and surprised some Intruders. I found a pregnant lady rat....and a field mouse.....IN my house. The Agreement has always been that THEY have the shed, the roof cavity, the old chicken coop and the fields - the humans and companion animals have the rooms of the house. THEY have reneged on this Agreement. We need Industrial Relations Mediation down here! This is different to, and more serious than, the 'noisy possums in the ceiling' problem, from Spring time. When I made my unscheduled return home, the field mouse was in the kitchen waste bin. A dear little thing, he took four jumps to get out and I nearly had to give him a hoist up. The lady rat is heavily pregnant and because her centre of gravity has radically shifted, is finding it hard to run fast on the floor tiles and squeezing under furniture is a real problem requiring much effort. A friend once advised me to read Kinship with All Life and I've belatedly ordered it from Amazon, but doubt it'll arive before the lady rat's 'happy event'. So - what to do? Apart from the stricter care with cleaning and removal of food sources. I have been pondering on the Precept against killing....Precepts are not to be kept only when convenient...... They are such warm and beautiful brown-eyed creatures....So full of panic and fear, and so wanting to live and not be harmed......... I've thought of putting food outside for them all, but feel this will just attract all the free-loaders in the neighbourhood to my place. I have a non-harming cage trap for the mouse, and hope to find a much large version for the lady rat before she delivers. Though I will still be causing suffering by transporting them into exile ..... Give me the 'Jhana or not to Jhana' problem anyday! metta, Chris 14202 From: onco111 Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah] Dear Sarah, Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different words. Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday: "That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep understanding of characteristics that appear now". --> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed at the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a lot!" That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that these various experiences that may arise in the course of formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender insight knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just as a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very little insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than many mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting late...] The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, and that the calm it induces is different from the calm that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The 'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, encouraged by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of insight rather than lobha. Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', and equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness with lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the mind there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating akusala by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of it makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I can do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we know..." __________________________________________________________________ Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of phenomena such as .... Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to read them in the full context of the development of insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the second stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows the rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, noticing or focussing on these phenomena. A.Sujin gives a good summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... --> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually all meditators experience and so commonly think of as 'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This distinction is easy to state and understand at a theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, but just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when there is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments come in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', because there still needs to be some consolidation of the insight, some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' flash) induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call 'beginning'. Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, it may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the kind that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not so much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who sits under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of the breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, calm without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into paramattha dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not be, etc. Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104].... Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing with Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really understand these more refined levels of wisdom. .... --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only with the supramundane path consciousness. Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of insight." In other words, does the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD) Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. Meanwhile, surely the discussion is about the conditions for these kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not arise at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the sotapanna is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person `with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. Person or sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, if I misunderstand any of your comments here --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the 'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken either way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to enlightenment." Sarah: A few comments in brief: 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for akusala. 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), there cannot be calm. 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop. 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to cling and `distract'. 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest of your snipped post. --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By "manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or akusala, depending on the attachment. Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, but wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first. --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again. Dan 14203 From: onco111 Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Sarah, Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different words. Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday: "That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep understanding of characteristics that appear now". --> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed at the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a lot!" That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that these various experiences that may arise in the course of formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender insight knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just as a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very little insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than many mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting late...] The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, and that the calm it induces is different from the calm that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The 'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, encouraged by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of insight rather than lobha. Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', and equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness with lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the mind there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating akusala by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of it makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I can do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we know..." __________________________________________________________________ Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of phenomena such as .... Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to read them in the full context of the development of insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the second stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows the rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, noticing or focussing on these phenomena. A.Sujin gives a good summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... --> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually all meditators experience and so commonly think of as 'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This distinction is easy to state and understand at a theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, but just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when there is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments come in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', because there still needs to be some consolidation of the insight, some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' flash) induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call 'beginning'. Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, it may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the kind that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not so much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who sits under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of the breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, calm without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into paramattha dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not be, etc. Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this point he has attained tender insight- knowledge...[and] is known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104].... Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing with Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really understand these more refined levels of wisdom. .... --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only with the supramundane path consciousness. Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of insight." In other words, does the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD) Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. Meanwhile, surely the discussion is about the conditions for these kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not arise at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the sotapanna is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person `with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. Person or sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, if I misunderstand any of your comments here --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the 'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken either way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to enlightenment." Sarah: A few comments in brief: 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for akusala. 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), there cannot be calm. 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop. 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to cling and `distract'. 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest of your snipped post. --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By "manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or akusala, depending on the attachment. Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, but wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first. --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again. Dan 14204 From: onco111 Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Dear Sarah, Nice comments from K.S... Development of samatha must be accompanied by panya, or it is more likely to be development of attachment. That's right. Now, the question is when is there panya? What are the characteristics? How can we discern the difference between panya and attachment? It is so difficult to do... Dan > "When there is some understanding that the wholesome and calm moments are > so brief and infrequent, samatha bhavana can be developed by knowing which > object can be a condition for calm. This is by understanding, not by > wishing or focussing. By understanding the value of skilful cittas, it > will be a condition for skilful reflections, such as thinking about others > with metta. If there is concentrating on an object and wanting to develop > more concentration, there is no detachment at these times from clinging > and conceit. Samatha can only be developed when there is understanding > more and more of how much attachment there is to sesnsuous objects. In > other words, it's not just the object that is important, but for it to be > a moment of samatha bhavana, there must be right understanding (at the > level of samatha) at that moment. There can be reflection on death with or > without understanding of how it calms the mind. When the citta is kusala, > there will be more and more calm which may lead to stages of wholesome > concentration with calm and understanding. Again it has to be right from > the very beginning. A moment of awareness is different from a moment with > no awareness. Understanding knows the difference without any selection. > > By developing satipatthana and samatha, this is the way that we learn what > our `nature' is, what kind of carita (person) one is. It depends on > individual accumulations whether metta or marana sati (recollection on > death) or even reflection on earth or solidity will condition calm and > kusala cittas. For example, with regards to earth, we fight just to get > `solidity'. reflecting wisely on the importance we attach to `earth' can > be a condition for calm. Are we friendly and ready to help? Do we see the > value of metta now?. There cannot be metta when there is craving. The > deeds and speech may be the same, but without > the attachment. Like a mother to child, without attachment. The purpose > is to be detached. If we select breath, it suggests a wanting of that > object. What is the purpose of concentrating on breath? It's useless > without panna, otherwise it merely conditions attachment." > ***** > Sarah > ===== > > > 14205 From: onco111 Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Oh, Larry! You silly goose! I'm not making any argument for not practicing meditation. Yes, the likelihood of getting it right in a short time is close to nill. Same with studying Abhidhamma. This is no reason to abstain. On the contrary, we need to work and work, very hard, for years and years to win any noticeable development. False estimation of progress is a tremendously dangerous trap that stifles true development. To face the huge mountains of ignorance that we carry around on our backs takes tremendous courage and resolve. And we have to do it alone -- totally alone, with no Self to help! If we lean too hard on that Self, it will relish the burden and keep supporting us, on and on and on. I'm only saying that when you sit on the cushion, keep studying realities as they arise and pass away. One that is especially difficult to discern is lobha because lobha can be quite pleasant. Is pleasantness the goal of sitting? If so, then you wouldn't be much worse off watching TV (although TV isn't even very pleasant). Now for some specific responses: Larry: In fact, given that there are zero living arahats --> Dan: There are? Are you sure? How do you know? Larry: I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold path at all. --> Dan: You do? What is the 8-fold path (in your own words)? Dan P.S. I've really been enjoying your recent posts. Your hard work is an inspiration. Thank-you. 14206 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah] Hi Dan and Sarah, Questions for you: How would you develop right concentration? What is your suggestion on developing right concentration? Thank you. Regards, Victor --- "onco111" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you > are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different > > words. > > Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday: > "That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we > know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep > > understanding of characteristics that appear now". > > --> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed at > the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry > > around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes > mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a > > lot!" > > That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that > these various experiences that may arise in the course of > > formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender insight > knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a > > meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just as > a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them > > as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very > fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but > > quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very little > insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for > > progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than many > mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting > > late...] > > The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, > and that the calm it induces is different from the calm > > that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in > this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that > > arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and > dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The > > 'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as > conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the > > same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, encouraged > by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in > > Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of > insight rather than lobha. > > Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am > calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp > > concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', and > equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with > > lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the > real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a > > restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness with > lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so > > much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily > life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the > > choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the mind > there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured > > calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating akusala > by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. > > It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of it > makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy > > to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I can > do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) > > manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could > do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" > > You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we know..." > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed > [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may > > experience a number of phenomena such as .... > > Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to > read them in the full context of the development of > > insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as > beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to > > differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). > However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly > > discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the second > stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent > > without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows the > rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling > > away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of > wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly > > the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other > realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, > > noticing or focussing on these phenomena. A.Sujin gives a good > summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha > > Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... > > --> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually all > meditators experience and so commonly think of as > > 'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This > distinction is easy to state and understand at a > > theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible > without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I > > don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, but > just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it > > comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come > from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, > > with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily > practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands > > of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even > subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of > > moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when there > is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of > > consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments come > in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of > > moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, > the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the > > way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a > decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', > > because there still needs to be some consolidation of the insight, > some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial > > insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' flash) > induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the > > 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the > level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call > > 'beginning'. > > Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly > developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the > > very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem > ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when > > we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, it > may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very > > highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the kind > that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may > > lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not so > much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but > > in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who sits > under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to > > be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of the > breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is > > different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] > We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, > > including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call > beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To > > counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare > kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we > > bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, calm > without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take > > as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into paramattha > dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's > > level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not be, > etc. > > Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent > origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], > > and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then > formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these > > states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, > they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, > > but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), > like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on > > water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a > conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like > > the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth > (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this > > point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as > a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104].... > > Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, > kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so > > on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct > understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether > > it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing with > Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually > > appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the clear > understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa > > in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really > understand these more refined levels of wisdom. .... > > --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual > understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct > > understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct > understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding > > of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while > confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is > > really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only with > the supramundane path consciousness. > > Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all > these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation > > of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this > tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in > > him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes > a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights > > discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise > in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be > > reckoned as imperfections of insight." In other words, does > the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the > > occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on that... "Athassa > imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa > > vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD) > > Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. Meanwhile, > surely the discussion is about the conditions for these > > kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not arise > at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why > > it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the sotapanna > is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person > > `with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. Person or > sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, > > if I misunderstand any of your comments here > > --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I > don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to > > the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an > understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the > > 'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the > sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as > > 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than > insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. > > ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken either > way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed > > by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day > insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight > > about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) > arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those > > meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" > And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning > > and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is > focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, > > etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to > enlightenment." > > Sarah: A few comments in brief: > 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. > 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by > upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for > > akusala. > 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even > though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), > > there cannot be calm. > 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or > insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise > > knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop. > 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to > cling and `distract'. > 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest > of your snipped post. > > > --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little > terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I > > presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana > cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By > > "manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. > I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise > > in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or > akusala, depending on the attachment. > > > Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly > misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't > > condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, but > wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first. > > --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have > misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition > > too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far > between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again. > > Dan 14207 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Thanks for clearing that up Dan. I thought you were being too hard on meditators and not hard enough on abhidhamikas. I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure she has a good source. Actually, by my estimate, there must be several thousand arahats at least, surely. Maybe the reason we say there are no arahats is that it would be conceited to compare arahats to people or people to arahats or arahats to arahats. Btw, I agree that tranquility follows insight; I almost said 'results' from insight but I don't think tranquility is resultant. I think tranquility in the sense of temporarily discontinuing the grasping impulse is a little taste of nibbana. So if you are not sure if nibbana is really what you want you could try out tranquility and see if it fits. best wishes, Larry 14208 From: onco111 Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah] Dear Victor, Most critical is to know the difference between "Right concentration" and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop all by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there is no understanding of the difference between concentration and right concentration and no development of right concentration. What is your suggestion for developing right concentration? Dan > Hi Dan and Sarah, > > Questions for you: > > How would you develop right concentration? > What is your suggestion on developing right concentration? > > Thank you. > > Regards, > Victor > > > --- "onco111" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you > > are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different > > > > words. > > > > Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday: > > "That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we > > know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep > > > > understanding of characteristics that appear now". > > > > --> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed > at > > the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry > > > > around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes > > mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a > > > > lot!" > > > > That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that > > these various experiences that may arise in the course of > > > > formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender > insight > > knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a > > > > meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just > as > > a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them > > > > as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very > > fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but > > > > quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very little > > insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for > > > > progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than many > > mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting > > > > late...] > > > > The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, > > and that the calm it induces is different from the calm > > > > that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in > > this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that > > > > arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and > > dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The > > > > 'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as > > conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the > > > > same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, > encouraged > > by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in > > > > Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of > > insight rather than lobha. > > > > Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am > > calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp > > > > concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', > and > > equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with > > > > lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the > > real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a > > > > restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness with > > lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so > > > > much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily > > life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the > > > > choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the mind > > there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured > > > > calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating > akusala > > by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. > > > > It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of > it > > makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy > > > > to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I > can > > do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) > > > > manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could > > do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" > > > > You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we > know..." > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are > discussed > > [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may > > > > experience a number of phenomena such as .... > > > > Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to > > read them in the full context of the development of > > > > insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as > > beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to > > > > differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). > > However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly > > > > discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the > second > > stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent > > > > without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows the > > rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling > > > > away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of > > wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly > > > > the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other > > realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, > > > > noticing or focussing on these phenomena. A.Sujin gives a good > > summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha > > > > Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... > > > > --> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually > all > > meditators experience and so commonly think of as > > > > 'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This > > distinction is easy to state and understand at a > > > > theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible > > without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I > > > > don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, but > > just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it > > > > comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come > > from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, > > > > with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily > > practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands > > > > of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even > > subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of > > > > moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when > there > > is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of > > > > consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments come > > in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of > > > > moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, > say, > > the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the > > > > way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a > > decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', > > > > because there still needs to be some consolidation of the insight, > > some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial > > > > insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' > flash) > > induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the > > > > 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the > > level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call > > > > 'beginning'. > > > > Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly > > developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the > > > > very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem > > ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when > > > > we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, > it > > may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very > > > > highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the > kind > > that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may > > > > lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not > so > > much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but > > > > in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who sits > > under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to > > > > be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of > the > > breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is > > > > different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] > > We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, > > > > including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call > > beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To > > > > counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare > > kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we > > > > bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, calm > > without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take > > > > as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into paramattha > > dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's > > > > level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not > be, > > etc. > > > > Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the > dependent > > origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], > > > > and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then > > formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these > > > > states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being > arisen, > > they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, > > > > but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, > 137), > > like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on > > > > water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a > > conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like > > > > the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth > > (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this > > > > point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as > > a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104].... > > > > Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, > > kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so > > > > on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct > > understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether > > > > it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing > with > > Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually > > > > appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the > clear > > understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa > > > > in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really > > understand these more refined levels of wisdom. .... > > > > --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse > intellectual > > understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct > > > > understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct > > understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding > > > > of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while > > confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is > > > > really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only with > > the supramundane path consciousness. > > > > Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all > > these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation > > > > of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this > > tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in > > > > him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially > becomes > > a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights > > > > discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise > > in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be > > > > reckoned as imperfections of insight." In other words, does > > the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the > > > > occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on > that... "Athassa > > imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa > > > > vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD) > > > > Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. > Meanwhile, > > surely the discussion is about the conditions for these > > > > kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not > arise > > at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why > > > > it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the > sotapanna > > is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person > > > > `with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. Person > or > > sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, > > > > if I misunderstand any of your comments here > > > > --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why > I > > don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to > > > > the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an > > understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the > > > > 'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the > > sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as > > > > 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than > > insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. > > > > ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken > either > > way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed > > > > by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day > > insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight > > > > about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) > > arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those > > > > meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender > insight!" > > And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning > > > > and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is > > focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, > > > > etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to > > enlightenment." > > > > Sarah: A few comments in brief: > > 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. > > 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by > > upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for > > > > akusala. > > 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even > > though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), > > > > there cannot be calm. > > 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or > > insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise > > > > knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop. > > 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to > > cling and `distract'. > > 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the > rest > > of your snipped post. > > > > > > --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little > > terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I > > > > presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of > sobhana > > cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By > > > > "manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala > cetasikas. > > I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise > > > > in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or > > akusala, depending on the attachment. > > > > > > Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly > > misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't > > > > condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, > but > > wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first. > > > > --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have > > misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition > > > > too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far > > between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again. > > > > Dan 14209 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana --- Dear Larry, I just got back from Tokyo and red a few posts. So far I haven't seen anywhere where Sarah or Dan are saying don't meditate. In fact I think both of them consistently in hundreds of posts have been saying meditate as much as possible - but do it with right view. We have a very short life - a hundred years or less - and if we limit the time to develop insight to our imagined 'ideal sitauation'i.e. when I am sitting, or when I am standing, or when I am alone, or when I am with others who are doing the same thing, or when I am concentrated, then we will subtlely assume that other moments are not the right time for insight, and then there may be neglect and falling away. The bodhisatta was invigorated when he realised the difficulty of the task: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of 20insight.htm#treatise """If he were to hear: ".... If he were to hear: "He alone can attain Buddhahood who can cut through a whole world-system that has become a jungle of thorny creepers covered by a solid thicket of bamboo, cross out, and reach the other side," etc .... If he were to hear: "Buddhahood can only be attained after being tortured in hell for four incalculables and a 100,000 aeons" -- he would not deem that difficult to do, but would be filled with desire for the task and would not shrink away.""" The five aggregates are samsara vatta, the round of births and deaths. They arise and cease endlessly, continuosly fueled by ignorance and craving. The way out is not by fooling ourself about progress but only by the true eightfold path. I believe there has to be investigation and consideration of the teachings for right view and the other factors to arise. """Thus, with wisdom, mindfulness, and energy preceded by skilful means, a bodhisattva should first thoroughly immerse himself in this entire sphere of learning -[i.ethe five aggregates, the twelve sense bases, the eighteen elements, the four truths, the twenty-two faculties, the twelve factors of dependent origination, the foundations of mindfulness, etc., the various classifications of phenomena such as the wholesome, etc.,]- through study, listening, memorization, learning, and interrogation.......... Then he should develop wisdom born of reflection (cintamayi panna) by first reflecting upon the specific nature of the phenomena such as the aggregates, and then arousing reflective acquiescence in them. Next, he should perfect the preliminary portion of the wisdom born of meditation (pubbabhagabhavanapanna) by developing the mundane kinds of full understanding through the discernment of the specific and general characteristics of the aggregates, etc.22 To do so, he should fully understand all internal and external phenomena without exception as follows: "This is mere mentality- materiality (namarupamatta), which arises and ceases according to conditions. There is here no agent or actor. It is impermanent in the sense of not being after having been; suffering in the sense of oppression by rise and fall; and non-self in the sense of being unsusceptible to the exercise of mastery." Comprehending them in this way, he abandons attachment to them, and helps others to do so as well. """" When you 'vegitate out in front of TV' there are the processes of cittas you have been studying in the Abhidhamma. There is seeing and then many processes that think about what was seen- no self anywhere. The visible objects on the screen are rupa - so different from nama, but this can only be seen by right insight. There are different feelings that arise while watching- these can be insighted. There are many, many moments of ignorance about realities - ignorance is real, it is different from any moments of understanding, it can be known. There may be impatience when you feel you are not becoming wise fast enough - this is dosa, part of sankhara khandha, it propels action. best wishes robert Larry wrote: > Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not practicing > meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it > perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal number of > imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that there > are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold path > at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and > vegetate. > > Larry 14210 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:57pm Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no 5 Perfections Ch 2, no. 5 Each time we give, we should carefully investigate our citta. The citta should truly be gentle and tender. We should not have contempt for the people who ask for something or dislike the things we give; we should not give discarded objects, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse us. Can we follow this up? The person who receives a gift may be annoyed, or sometimes his behaviour may be most impolite. But still, the citta of the person who gives can be gentle and tender. He can give without dislike of the receiver. It may happen that the receiver is unrestrained in his behaviour, that his conduct is improper, or that he reviles the person who gives; he may be angry, he may say that the other person gives too little, or that he does not want to have the things that are given. However, inspite of this, the citta of the giver should be steadfast in kusala. We read in the Commentary: He gives invariably with confidence, with compassion and respect. In this way one can eradicate one¹s own defilements, also when giving. The Commentary states: He does not give through belief in superstitious omens: but he gives believing in kamma and its fruit. When he gives he does not afflict those who ask by making them do homage to him, etc.; but he gives without afflicting others. He does not give a gift with the intention of deceiving others or with the intention of injuring; he gives only with an undefiled mind. He does not give a gift with harsh words or a frown, but with words of endearment, congenial speech, and a smile on his face. Whenever greed for a particular object becomes excessive, due to its high value and beauty, its antiquity, or because attachment has been accumulated since a long time, the Bodhisatta recognizes his greed, quickly dispels it, seeks out some recipients, and gives it away. A person who understands himself well knows the extent of his clinging, he knows when he can give up something or when he cannot. Sometimes he may think of giving, but he is not able to give. However, as we read, it is different for the Bodhisatta. The passage quoted above deals with the giving of material goods, åmisa dåna. The Commentary gives many more details of the Bodhisatta¹s practice while he developed the perfections in order to attain the supreme enlightenment as the Sammå-Sambuddha. However, I shall now only deal with a few details so that people can investigate more carefully their own citta in order to develop kusala further. The Commentary states about the giving of freedom from fear, abhaya dåna: The giving of freedom from fear is the giving of protection to beings when they have become frightened on account of kings, thieves, fire, water, enemies, lions, tigers, other wild beasts, dragons, ogres, demons, goblins, etc. 14211 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Patisambhidamagga 2 and practice. Dear Num, thank you for all the trouble. What you quote is part of the Co, the Intro, and this does not exist in English. I looked at my Thai edition. It is too long to translate all, but I would like to elaborate somewhat on a few passages. op 06-07-2002 03:32 schreef Num op Num > > Num: The introduction (gantharambhakatha) then refers to Vibhanga. According to > suttantabha_jani_ya (fine classification according to suttas) > patisambhidavibanga, there are 5 aspects of PTSM. Nina: See Book of Analysis Ch 15, and for further study its Co. Dispeller of Delusion II, Ch 15. Num: 1.Saccava_ra (truths section) > 2.Hetuva_ra (causes section) > 3.Dhammava_ra (dhamma section) > 4.Paccayakarava_ra (paticcasamuppada section) > 5.Pariyattidhammava_ra (discourse section) Nina: here the four discriminations are applied to the four noble Truths. Of course this is all very detailed, and it shows that there are many methods of explaining. It is also to be applied to the Dependent Origination. As Robert explained: there is not one cause and one fruit, but many causes and many fruits. Num: 1) Saccava_ra: Discriminating panna in dukkha is atthapatisambhida. > Discriminating panna in causes of dukkha (lobha) is dhammapatisambhida. > Discriminating panna in nibbana is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in > magga is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those > dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all dhammas is > patibhana-patisambhida. (Dukkha is a consequence, lobha is a cause, nibbana > is the consequence, magga is the cause). .............. > > 2 levels of patisambhida: sekhabhumi (sotapattimagga/pala-arahatmagga) and > asekhabhumi (arahatpala). Nina: Sekha: the ariyan who is not arahat. The Co. mentions names and we see that even enlightened layfollowers at that time had this discriminative knowledge: such as Upali and Khujjuttara. Of course there were different levels of these discriminative knowledges. Num: 5 factors of clearness/'purity (visada): adhigama > (attainment of arahat level), pariyatti (studying the Buddha teaching), > savana (listening), paripuccha (well-rounded examination and > cross-examination, literally: well-rounded asking/analyzing), and pubbayoga > (previous practice of vipassana). Nina: As to listening, the Co states: I like this: listening with respect for the Dhamma, that means, really considering what one hears, not passive listening and forgetting immediately. Then , pubbayoga, previous training is one condition. The Dispeller explains: the carrying forth and carrying back of the meditation subject in former times. (This is what I was reading about in the co to the Fruits of a Recluse). The Co to the Patis. elaborates more about this: Now comes a part I find of particular importance: Num: Then the book mentioned the importance of samma_dit.th.i as the preceding > factor of n~a_na. "one knows samma-dit.th.i as samma_dit.th.i, micchdit.th.i > as micchadit.th.i. That knowledge is samma-dit.th.i. Then repeat for one > knows sammaŠ(another 7 magga factors) as sammaŠ, knows micchaŠ(another 7 > magga factors) as micchaŠ That knowledge is sammaŠ. The writer (also > A.Supee) then emphasizes on importance of n~a_na(panna) by pointing out that > is the reason why the book of patisambhidamagga is starting with n~a_nakatha. Nina: The Co stresses: The Co stresses that sammaditthi is the leader. My remarks: it is panna that can see when there is wrong understanding. This is most important, how easily can wrong understanding slip in, and then there are "stains as to the practice". It can happen so easily that we take for sati what is only thinking, even very quick thinking, of realities. Now I find that the perfection of sincerity, of truthfulness is essential. Do we wish to recognize that we are not so advanced as we would like to be? It takes courage to recognize this. But what does it matter, it is so much to be preferred to live according to the truth. I liked Ranil's post, saying he found out that he knew so little when meeting A. Sujin. That is sincerity, and from that point on one can learn gradually more. If one deludes oneself, no way. As Sarah quoted from a tape of a. Sujin: Whatever arises is conditioned, it appears already. In that way it can be clear what sati is that also arises when there are conditions, not when we try to focus on something or want it to arise. And A. Sujin also stressed: detachment is the goal. I remember what Ven. Dhammadaro once said, very plainly: "What do you want awareness for? To show it to others?" The foregoing passage of the Co. to the Patis. very much concerns the practice. Now another passage concerning the practice: Num: The introduction then ended with a quote from san.gi_tisutta, > dighanikaya/patikavaggo, from the section of fours: 4 factors of attaining > sotapana. 1) Association with the wise (sappurissam.sevo) 2) dhamma listening > (saddhammasasavanam.) 3) proper/wise/thorough consideration > (yonisomanasikaro) < dukkhalakkhana, and anattalakkhana>>, and 4) practice dhamma according to > dhamma (dhammanudhammapatipat.t.i) << from atthakatha: this refers to 4 > satipatthana, ekayanamagga, pubbabha_gamagga(magga at the beginning)>>. Nina: We need association with the wise, because if we are on our own, we can delude ourselves so easily. We can take thinking for awareness. We forget that detachment is the goal: how we like to make progress, my progress. As to no 4: we often see this text: dhammanudhammapatipa.t.ti: practice of dhamma according to dhamma: anudhamma. The second dhamma refers to the nine lokuttara dhammas, A. Supee explained in India. If there is no right practice lokuttara dhammas can never be reached. That is why A. Sujin will ask us time and again: do we know what seeing and visible object now are? Hearing and sound? Nama is different from rupa, but do we know only in theory? If that is so we have to begin considering carefully any reality that appears now. It has to be right from the very beginning. If we do not gradually learn the difference between nama and rupa, not just by thinking, no way to ever reach the first stage of tender insight. Thank you, Num, the texts helped me to consider more. I am looking forward to notes of the next sessions, in particular about what A. Sujin says about the connection of the Patis. with daily life. This is what we need above all. With appreciation, Nina. 14212 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah] Hi Dan, My suggestion is: Sit in a secluded place. Cross the legs. Close the eyes. Keep the back erect. Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities. Focus the mind on in and out breathing. After sitting, you might want to check your experience against the definition/description of right concentration in the Pali Canon. If you have a teacher, talk to him to get feedback too. Regards, Victor --- "onco111" wrote: > Dear Victor, > Most critical is to know the difference between "Right concentration" > and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop all > by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there is > no understanding of the difference between concentration and right > concentration and no development of right concentration. > > What is your suggestion for developing right concentration? > > Dan > > > > Hi Dan and Sarah, > > > > Questions for you: > > > > How would you develop right concentration? > > What is your suggestion on developing right concentration? > > > > Thank you. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > > > --- "onco111" wrote: 14213 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Yuganaddha Sutta - In Tandem Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta In Tandem Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html 14214 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 10:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats Dear Larry and Dan, I would like to quote from an old post: , patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the ³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch X, on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still arahats with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following period of thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka, those who had not attained any stage of jhåna, but who had developed only insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of thousand years there are only sotåpannas.> Nina. > I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure > she has a good source. > 14215 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats Dear Friends, Thanks for this post. I was wondering why this has happened? Does anyone have any ideas? With metta, shakti Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Larry and Dan, I would like to quote from an old post: samatha, and the person who deserves the highest respect is the person endowed with jhanas, supranatural powers and the four knowledges>, patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the ³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch X, on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still arahats with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following period of thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka, those who had not attained any stage of jhåna, but who had developed only insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of thousand years there are only sotåpannas.> Nina. > I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure > she has a good source. > 14216 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats Hi, Shakti, Nina, and all - I haven't seen any reference to this pointed out from within the suttas, though that doesnt mean it isn't there. What there does seem to be in the suttas are indications that a given dispensation of the Buddhadhamma, as with all conditioned phenomena, eventually declines, degrades, and finally ceases. One can imagine that as this process of decline moves forward, there would be decreasing success in practicing the Dhamma due to decreasing understanding of it. As far as the precision of the timeline and the details o f the decline are concerned, well, I take that with a grain of salt. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/7/02 11:14:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Dear Friends, > Thanks for this post. I was wondering why this has happened? Does anyone > have any ideas? > With metta, shakti > Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Larry and Dan, I would like > to quote from an old post: > > samatha, and the person who deserves the highest respect is the person > endowed with jhanas, supranatural powers and the four knowledges>, > patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when > further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent > qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the > ³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch > X, > on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of > this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees > of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing > away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still > arahats > with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following > period of thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka, > those who had not attained any stage of jhåna, but who had developed only > insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who > have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of > thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of > thousand years there are only sotåpannas.> > > Nina. > > > > I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure > > she has a good source. > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14217 From: frank kuan Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats What do you wannabe when you grow up? I wannabe an Arahant Couldn't make it as a worldling. Worldly joys can not satiate. Unworldly joy relaxed and easy. Beyond worldly and unworldly joy they say, is even better than you can imagine. -fk 14218 From: <> Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 8:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (4) Dear group, this story of Maha Tissa's awakening is particularly interesting to me. Not only is it in a 'daily life' satipatthana situation, it is also _external_ kayanupassana. In addition, the vipaka citta is not a kusala citta of a young woman 'tricked out like a celestial nymph' but rather an akusala citta of her teeth which were experienced as a perception of foulness, the javana citta that lead to his awakening. I thought I would print it again to see if anyone had any additional comments. Larry --------------------- In the 'Visuddhimagga' (I, 55) we read about the 'Elder' Maha-Tissa : ...It seems that as the Elder was on his way from Cetiya-pabbata to Anuradhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had quarrelled with her husband and had set out early from Anuradhapura all dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her relatives' home, saw him on the road, and being low-minded, she laughed a loud laugh. (Wondering) 'What is that?", the Elder looked up, and finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness, he reached Arahantship. Hence it was said : 'He saw the bones that were her teeth, And kept in mind his first perception; And standing on that very spot, The Elder became an Arahant.' But her husband who was going after her saw the Elder and asked 'Venerable sir, did you by any chance see a woman?' The Elder told him: 'Whether it was a man or woman That went by I noticed not ; But only that on this high road There goes a group of bones.' Maha-Tissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor entranced by the details. He realized when he perceived the woman's teeth the 'foulness of the body' and he did not take what he perceived for 'self'. The perception of the 'foulness of the body' reminds us not to see the self in the body, but to realize bodily phenomena as rupas which do not stay. Maha-Tissa saw things as they are; the panna arising at that moment was to the degree that it could eradicate all defilements. 14219 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (4) Hi, Larry - Maha Tissa was ready, he was prepared, he was primed - the fruit was ready to fall from the tree, it only needed a slight breeze to push it off. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/7/02 8:46:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear group, this story of Maha Tissa's awakening is particularly > interesting to me. Not only is it in a 'daily life' satipatthana > situation, it is also _external_ kayanupassana. In addition, the vipaka > citta is not a kusala citta of a young woman 'tricked out like a > celestial nymph' but rather an akusala citta of her teeth which were > experienced as a perception of foulness, the javana citta that lead to > his awakening. > > I thought I would print it again to see if anyone had any additional > comments. > > Larry > --------------------- > In the 'Visuddhimagga' (I, 55) we read about the 'Elder' Maha-Tissa : > > ...It seems that as the Elder was on his way from Cetiya-pabbata to > Anuradhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had > quarrelled with her husband and had set out early from Anuradhapura all > dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her > relatives' home, saw him on the road, and being low-minded, she laughed > a loud laugh. (Wondering) 'What is that?", the Elder looked up, and > finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness, he reached > Arahantship. Hence it was said : 'He saw the bones that were her teeth, > And kept in mind his first perception; And standing on that very spot, > The Elder became an Arahant.' But her husband who was going after her > saw the Elder and asked 'Venerable sir, did you by any chance see a > woman?' The Elder told him: 'Whether it was a man or woman That went by > I noticed not ; But only that on this high road There goes a group of > bones.' > > Maha-Tissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor entranced > by the details. He realized when he perceived the woman's teeth the > 'foulness of the body' and he did not take what he perceived for 'self'. > The perception of the 'foulness of the body' reminds us not to see the > self in the body, but to realize bodily phenomena as rupas which do not > stay. Maha-Tissa saw things as they are; the panna arising at that > moment was to the degree that it could eradicate all defilements. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14220 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] introduction Dear Ruth (and any other newbies here), --- Ruth Klein wrote: > Hello. I joined this group yesterday and have been amazed at the number > and depths of the messages received so far! Just for that I felt it > better to introduce myself, rather than lurk - even though I probably > won't have much to post later. A warm welcome to DSG and thank you for setting such a good example to other newbies with this introduction. I really hope some of the other recent members will do the same. As you have found, there are some considerably detailed and in-depth discussions on the Budha’s Teachings here and some threads go back a long way. (I’ll try to give a little more help at the end of the post) > I have been slowly coming around to Buddhist teachings. It's taken me > almost 3 years (talk about wading in at the shallow end!) and I keep > exploring. The past four months I have really committed myself to > practice, though not so much study. Later this summer I will be going > on my first retreat - at Wat Metta in CA. I joined this group while > searching for a sangha of support; I'm travelling for the summer and > feel cut off from my home community. > > Well, I'll be around, reading more than anything... asking questions... After wading in the shallow end, you may feel you’re plunging in the deep end here (sometimes I do, anyway), but initially, just follow what is of interest and seems applicable to you, if that helps. Are you based in California too? A few other members here are as well. Anyway, hope you have a good summer of travel and dhamma reminders and look forward to any of your questions or comments. Thanks again for posting this message and for your interest in the vedana thread which I know Howard has helped with. Hope you’ll join in on that one. A few suggestions to any DSG newbies ============================= 1. Pali challenged? A very simple pali golssary can be found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary You’re also welcome to shout and ask for clarifications anytime - sometimes we forget to add the English in brackets, esp. if it’s a word that most people are used to here. 2. Want to find the start of a thread? Go to escribe (back-up for all posts), click on the last message in the thread you are interested in: eg ‘vedana’, then click on where it says ‘view other messages in this thread’ http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ 3. The escribe link is alo useful for finding messages by a particular writer or for tracing a message or topic, using the search function. 4. Certain messages on particular themes such as ‘Pali’ or ‘Kamma’ or ‘Luminous Mind’ have been kept aside at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ================================================ Please feel welcome to drop in on any threads or to start your own,and never be concerned if it’s been discussed before or seems too simple. You’ll be doing us all a favour. If any of the links here don’t work, pls let me know (off-list perhaps) and I’ll f/w them to Kom for attention! Sarah ===== 14221 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you > are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different words. ..... Mainly I think this is right, though I think there may be a few areas to consider further. I think I misunderstood some of your comments before too. This may have been partly because of having read the ‘jhana’ one first, partly being somewhat confused by the ‘manufactured calm’, but mainly because I couldn’t quite see why you raised these ‘imperfections of insight’ from Vis XX. (Maybe also I’m still in shock that we’re in agreement on so many essential aspects of the Teachings these days;-)) I’ve got both yr posts on this thread in front of me now, plus the Vism. To get back to yr earlier post: > In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX > 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of > phenomena such as illumination, rapture, tranquility, bliss, etc. ..... I’ve now looked at the section. These are very specific ‘imperfections’ only pertaining to ‘the beginner of insight’ or the one with tender insight (as I understand). For example, the illumination is ‘illumination due to insight’ and so on. I might as well mention here why I suggested this ‘beginner’ stage is actually an advanced level of wisdom. Already at this stage the conditioned nature of all namas and rupas is apparent (past, present and future), all uncertainty in this regard is removed (X1X,5f), kamma-vipaka, paticca samuppada are apparent with no doubt remaining, ‘rise and fall in the two ways according to condition and according to instant, the several truths, aspects of .. > These phenomena may arise for one without insight in the course of > formal meditation by, say, directing the mind to a kasina or the > touch of the breath on the upper lip. However, these phenomena can > also arise "due to insight" in a "beginner of insight," according to > Vism. [107...] ..... I don’t understand that the very specific phenomena (i.e. the ‘imperfections’ you raise) arise without the insight specified. As you discuss, anything can mimic anything and as we know from our old friends the vancaka (cheating) dhammas, it’s always easy to be deceived by our experiences, esp. as you go on to discuss, when we read the texts. (Larry: pls note, if anything I’m questioning the reading of the texts here and am not talking about meditation practices;-)) ..... >It may seem like a subtle distinction here -- whether > the calm is induced by directing the mind onto a particular object or > whether it is induced by insight -- but the distinction is clear. > With the purposive directing of the mind onto an object, there is a > repeated fixing of the attention on the object and the conscious > suppression of the hindrances. ..... I’d rather just say that calm accompanies kusala cittas. The kusala cittas are moments of dana, sila or bhavana. For the 2 kinds of bhavana (samatha and vipassana) there must be understanding of the object. So I wouldn’t use ‘induced by directing...’ and I’m not sure I’d use ‘induced by insight’, but possibly. I’d have to think more about that one. ..... > With insight? > "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, > methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics > [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to > him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being > previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they > are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like > dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), > like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an > awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage > (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, > like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. > > "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is > known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104] ..... This is a good quote that I think reinforces the degree of wisdom required here. To give an analogy. For those who climb Mt Everest, base camp is the ‘beginner’ level at which point the serious and dangerous climbing begins. On the otherhand, for most of us worldlings, even trekking up to base camp would be a high level of accomplishment. Beginner or advanced level? Is the glass half full or half empty? I don't think this is so much a question of conceit as of realism to be 'truthful' to the level of understanding now as Nina was referring to (sacca parami). (I'll leave your dust-rag red herring for now, Dan, but bring it up another time- a discussion in itself;-)) ..... > "And now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, > ten imperfections of insight might arise in him. ...illumination due > to insight...knowledge due to insight...rapturous happiness due to > insight...tranquillity due to insight...bliss due to > insight...faith...well-exerted energy...well-founded > mindfulness...equanimity...attachment due to insight." [Vism XX 105- > 122]. ..... So now we have clearly established we are only talking about a specific level of insight and specific experiences at that level. Back to the 2nd post: =============== I fully agree and appreciate almost everything you wrote (much clearer for me), so I’ll snip most of it for now. I also agree about the misleading ‘yardsticks’...many of us know just what you mean;-) Like I said to Sukin about the meditation course, we can’t blame the teacher or the Visuddhimagga or anything/one else....the characteristic of wrong view is to assume what is wrong to be right. While it hasn’t been eradicated, it will continue (as you point out so well) to mislead while following special practices or as Larry points out, while studying abhidhamma or other texts. (Larry, hope that’s passing your censor, more on this tomorrow perhaps;-)) _________________________________________________________________ >In a decade of formal practice, with annual > or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily practice on the > cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands of hours of manufactured > calm, peaceful-seeming times when even subtle sensations are noted > with ease, there may be scores of moments where there is a flash of > what seems to be insight when there is an apparent discontinuity in > the flow of consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these > moments come in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of > moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, > the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the way uppadana > paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a decade doesn't > qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', because there still needs to > be some consolidation of the insight, some development. But even the > softer, attenuated, trivial insights that are primarily conceptual > (complete with an 'Aha' flash) induce calm (kusala) -- just not at > the level where the 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') > arise, and not at the level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would > call 'beginning'. ..... OK, agreed. I’d probably go even further and question whether there really can be any ‘moments of genuine insight’ if the distinction between concepts and realities isn’t apparent (i.e if the object of panna isn’t known). Yes, there will be calm accompanying conceptual rt understanding (if it’s kusala), but this isn’t insight. If there is an ‘apparent discontinuity of consciousness’, I’ve no idea what this is. Consciousness never ‘discontinues’ as I understand. ..... .> --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual > understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct understanding, especially > since we have so little (if any) direct understanding. Of course, > there may be clear understanding of the distinction between nama and > rupa at one moment, while confusion and doubt about it arise again > later -- moha is really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally > eradicated only with the supramundane path consciousness. ..... Finally eradicated yes, but gradually attenuated and removed at these stages and different aspects of doubt about 1)n&r 2)kamma & conditions 3) rise and fall of realities at these stages, to my understanding. “When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly knows and sees the sign. Hence ‘right seeing’ is said. thus by inference from that all formations are clearly seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned.....”X1X,26 Furthermore, I understand when the stages are realised, there can be no doubt about it. ..... > --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I > don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to the person in > the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an understatement > for you!), but it looks to me like the 'with this tender insight' is > in the instrumental case, with the sense of insight 'bringing about' > the phenomena known as 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) > rather than insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in > insight. ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be > taken either way. ..... To be honest Dan, I don’t see the big deal and I don’t see the distinction or am I being dim?. We talk about the Buddha’s wisdom or the sotapanna’s eradication of defilements and so on. We know there is no Buddha, but we’re talking conventionally. I understand it to be talking about the particular defilements arising in those with tender insight and conditioned by it. Just like the ‘seeing sees’ old thread, it depends how it’s understood and of course can yet again be the object of wrong view. ..... >Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed > by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day > insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight about anatta > arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) arises -- "Aha! > Now I am a true beginner, so now when those meditation phenomena > arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" And then, "Aren't I > wise! Insight arises every morning and evening when I sit. All I need > to do to make insight arise is focus on the breath for a few minutes. > Then, illumination, etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on > my way to enlightenment." ..... Like you said at the start, we’re really in almost full agreement and perhaps I wanted to really clarify this before looking at the other jhana thread in more detail with you. I also appreciate that you have plenty of first-hand experience to back up your comments about the dangers of this aspect of wrong view and misunderstanding of the stages of insight. I’ve also seen and heard of several monks and laypeople (usually very intelligent and serious students) having a very hard time indeed as a result. A hard time as a result of attachment and wrong view, but conditioned by what is read or heard too. I think you’re doing a great service by pointing out these pitfalls (I hope you write a book one day ;-)). Dan and for the record, I have much respect for the courage shown by you in facing up to the truth. It must be harder still, perhaps for those who are revered and highly regarded. ..... > Sarah: A few comments in brief: > 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. > 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by > upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for akusala. > 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even > though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), there > cannot be calm. > 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or > insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise knowledge of > kilesa, neither can develop. > 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to > cling and `distract'. > 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest > of your snipped post. > > > --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little > terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I presume you are > referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana cetasikas that > sound like various aspects of calm. ..... Primarily calm refers to passaddhi cetasika as you suggested earlier. Like you suggest, though, all the 6 pairs accompany all all sobhana (beautiful) cittas. Maybe more on this in the jhana thread later. ..... >By "manufactured calm" I don't > necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. I'm primarily referring to > the calm feelings that arise in the course of formal meditation, > which can be either kusala or akusala, depending on the attachment. ..... ..and ignorance. I was confused by the term when I last wrote.... ..... > --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have > misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition too much > dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far between. Much > more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again. ..... There are bound to be misunderstandings here, I’m sure. You set a good example (along with Goggy;-)) in accepting, seeing good intentions and movng on...... I have a few posts ear-marked for reply, but I hope to get back on the other one soon. Sarah ======= 14222 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > My criteria would also be whether a practice brings one towards the path that eventually brings one to enlightenment. Any benefits that do not lead towards enlightenment or that delay or lead away from enlightenment, would not be wished for, as they would prolong or increase suffering. The question is, whether these practices aid the progress towards enlightenment or not. And I am not sure whether either of us can know that with certainty either pro or con. At best we have our educated, or less educated, guesses, and mine is that if a practice creates conditions that are in line with the dhamma then it is an aid towards the path of enlightenment, and if not, then not. If one was to develop genuine peacefulness and discernment through yoga, then the yoga would be an aid towards enlightenment. If those qualities were developed on the surface but were accompanied by akusala pride in self at accomplishing these qualities or if they were masking other akusala effects that were in the wrong direction, then they would be obstacles, not aids. There is still going to be personal interpretation involved. If a Sutta mentions that many arahants were sitting in the cross-legged position while entering the jhanas; I am sure that you will say this is a coincidence and that it is a description not a prescription; and that I will say it is the path itself. Where do we each get our separate interpretations? My guess is that it is because of our backgrounds and tendencies: yours in Abhidhamma; mine in yoga and vipassana meditation as well as mahayana studies. So is either one of us right, or are we just 'being ourselves' and following our own predilections in this lifetime? Jon: Yes, a person's understanding of a given passage from the suttas is a reflection of their personal interoperation and understanding. However, the original intended meaning is not, and it is that that we need to try to ascertain. You say, "If one was to develop genuine peacefulness and discernment through yoga, then the yoga would be an aid towards enlightenment." Within the teachings there are discussions of the factors that if developed lead to more understanding, so it is possible to compare those parts of the texts with a given practice and see what similarities if any there are. I would see as somewhat unreliable the approach of undertaking the practice first and then 'checking' the perceived results against descriptions found in the texts (if that's what you're refering to). I would imagine that using that approach any number of practices could be 'justified' as being an aid. Don’t you think it's rather subjective? Why not first consider whether the practice in question talks about the same things as are found in the teachings? Jon 14223 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 10:00pm Subject: Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - … > I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts certainly > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from the > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking > meditation in the open air." > > With metta, > Howard As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'. According to the dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down (as given in both PED and CPED). If cankamana is the original, then the 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss. This is perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation'). I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by Goggy in a recent post. In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the original) they are: 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice 3) balancing between sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) builds durable concentration. There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves 'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as far as the development of understanding is concerned. (Actually, these remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.) The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of things. Jon 14224 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 6:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) Hi, Jon - I know a lot of folks who do considerable walking as exercise, but I never noticed that they particularly developed "durable concentration". Oh - one more point: It seems that every ongoing lineage within both Theravada and Mahayana has a walking meditation practice of long standing (centuries), and these differ hardly at all from each other. Don't you find this to be a rather surprising coincidence? (The Chinese, BTW, do two kinds: Slow walking with attention to the smallest details of position, placement, and sensation, and normal-speed walking with attention to the body as a whole, whereas the Theravadins seem to concentrate on the former.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/8/02 10:02:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > … > > I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts > certainly > > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from > the > > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking > > meditation in the open air." > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a > translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'. According to the > dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down > (as given in both PED and CPED). If cankamana is the original, then the > 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss. This is > perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a > prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the > translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation'). > > I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by > Goggy in a recent post. In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the > original) they are: > 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) > 2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice > 3) balancing between sitting and walking > 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) > 5) builds durable concentration. > > There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves > 'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as > far as the development of understanding is concerned. (Actually, these > remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.) > > The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no > precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of > things. > > Jon > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yuganaddha Sutta - In Tandem, and com. notes. Dear Victor and Dan, I quote the sutta in the PTs translation from an old post. With Co notes. Dan will be interested to see notes on calm and insight. Nina. We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours( II, Ch XVI, §10, Coupled) that Anada said : Reverend sirs, when anyone, be it monk or nun, proclaaims in my presence that he has attained arahatship, all such do so by virtue of four factors or by one of these four. What are they? Herein, your reverences, a monk develops insight preceded by calm. In him thus developing insight preceded by calm is born the Way. He follows along that Way, makes it grow, makes much of it... the fetters are abandoned, the lurking tendencies come to an end. Or again, your reverences, a monk develops calm preceded by insight. In him thus developing calm preceded by insight is born the Way... the lurking tendencies come to an end. Yet again, your reverences, a monk develops calm-and-insight coupled. In him thus developing.. the Way is born... the lurking tendencies come to an end. Once more, your reverences, a monk¹s mind is utterly cleared of perplexities about dhamma. That is the time, your reverences, when his thought stands fixed in the very self, settles down, becomes one-pointed, is composed. In him the Way is born... the lurking tendencies come to an end. The Co explains that the Way is the first stage of enlightenment. As to the second factor, the monk is already used to developing insight and then samadhi arises. As to the third factor, he is aware and considers the sankharas, jhanafactors, in between the different stages of jhana he enters and emerges from. As to the fourth factor, he has abandoned the ten defilements of vipassana. He does not cling to samatha nor to vipassana. It is interesting that there is no special order, a person¹s way of development depends on his accumulations. I discussed calm and insight with A. Supee in India. He reminded me that whenever we read about calm, it is implied that it goes together with insight. For some people the factor calm is stronger, for others less strong. And as Kom explained, when insight is developed there are conditions for more calm, in a natural way. The sotapanna has more calm than the ordinary person, because he has less defilements. The sotapanna who has developed insight has such strong, unshakable confidence in the Triple gem, and when there are conditions he can have great calm while contemplating the Buddha¹s virtues. Only ariyans could attain access concentration with this meditation subject. The person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment, the anagami, is no longer attached to sense objects, thus, naturally, he has a great deal of calm. When we read about the ideal Recluse, he goes forth with the aim to attain arahatship, and becomes endowed with the highest qualities. Taken into account that we are further away from the Buddha¹s time, we can draw our conclusions to what extent all such high qualities are still possible. Then, when we read about jhanas, we will understand all these passages in their right perspective. No more doubts whether all of us should develop jhana. op 07-07-2002 16:24 schreef yuzhonghao op Victor: > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > Yuganaddha Sutta > In Tandem > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's > monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" > "Yes, friend," the monks responded. > > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of > one or another of four paths. Which four? > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As > he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in > tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues > it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows > the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, > his obsessions destroyed. > > "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in > my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four > paths." 14226 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no 6 Perfections Ch 2, no 6. The Commentary to "the Basket of Conduct" continues: The giving of the Dhamma, Dhamma dåna, is an unperverted discourse on the Dhamma given with an undefiled mind; that is, methodical instruction conducive to good in the present life, in the life to come, and to ultimate deliverance (ditthidhammika samparåyikaparamattha). By means of such discourses, those who have not entered the Buddha¹s Dispensation enter it, while those who have entered it reach maturity therein. This is the method:- In brief, he speaks on giving, on virtue, and on heaven, on the unsatisfactoriness and defilement in sense pleasures, and on the benefit in renouncing them. People may have understanding of dåna, of the danger in sense pleasures and the benefit of renouncing them, but when one is unaware and does not listen to the Dhamma, one is bound to be overcome by defilements. When we often listen to the Dhamma, even though we hear what was said before, or when we listen to what has been said about daily life, we are reminded to reflect and be aware of realities, and, thus, there are conditions to accumulate more kusala. We read further on in the Commentary: In detail, to those whose minds are disposed towards the enlightenment of disciples (såvakabodhiyam adhimuttacittånam), he gives a discourse establishing and purifying them (in progress towards their goal) by elaborating upon the noble qualities of whichever among the following topics is appropriate: going for refuge, restraint by virtue, guarding the doors of the sense-faculties, moderation in eating, application to wakefulness... One should know the degree of one¹s understanding. As we read, the Buddha gave a discourse in detail to those whose minds were disposed towards the enlightenment of disciples, he gave a discourse establishing and purifying them (in progress towards their goal) by elaborating upon the noble qualities as was appropriate to them. Those who want to develop satipaììhåna, to develop right understanding of the characteristics of the dhammas that are appearing, and to develop the perfections in daily life, are already disposed towards the enlightenment of disciples, and that means that they go for refuge to the Triple Gem, that they observe síla, guard the doors of the sense-faculties, are moderate in eating and apply themselves to wakefulness, to energy, time and again. We should develop the perfections together with satipaììhåna, life after life. The Bodhisatta had developed the perfections for aeons to an incomparably high degree. He accumulated the perfection of generosity together with paññå and all other wholesome qualities which formed together the conditions (as the khandha of formations, sankhårakkhandha 3) for the realization of the four noble Truths when he attained Buddha hood. The accumulation of the perfection of dåna and the other perfections have lead to this result. Footnote: 3. Conditioned phenomena can be classified as five khandhas, aggregates: the khandha of physical phenomena, rúpakkhandha, the khandha of feeling, vedanåkkhandha, the khandha of perception, saññåkkhandha, the khandha of formations or activities, sankhårakkhandha, the khandha of consciousness, viññånakkhandha.The khandha of formations or activities, saòkhårakkhandha, includes all cetasikas other than feeling, vedanå, and remembrance or perception, saññå. It includes all akusala cetasikas and sobhana cetasikas. Generosity and also the other sobhana cetasikas such as paññå and sati, are accumulated together and condition one another so that finally enlightenment can be attained. 14227 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 7:15am Subject: ADL ch. 15 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 15 (1) THE FUNCTIONS OF TADARAMMANA AND CUTI An object which impinges on one of the senses can be visible object, sound, smell, taste or an impression through the body-sense. Each one of these objects is rupa. They arise and fall away, but they do not fall away as rapidly as nama. Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. When rupa impinges on one of the senses, the panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) does not arise immediately. First there have to be bhavanga-cittas and they are: the atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga), the bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) and the bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga or last bhavanga-citta before the stream of bhavanga-cittas is arrested). These bhavanga-cittas do not experience the rupa which has contacted one of the senses. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta, which is a kiriyacitta, adverts to the object which has impinged on one of the senses. It is succeeded by the dvi-panca-vinnana (seeing-consciousness, hearing-consciousness, etc. ) which is vipaka, the result of a good deed or an ill deed. There is, however, not only one moment of vipaka in a process, but several moments. The dvi-panca-vinnana is succeeded by sampaticchana-citta (receiving-consciousness) which is vipaka and this citta is succeeded by santirana-citta (investigating- consciousness) which is also vipaka. The santirana-citta is succeeded by the votthapana-citta (determining- consciousness) which is kiriyacitta. This citta is succeeded by seven javana-cittas which are, in the case of non-arahats, akusala cittas or kusala cittas. All cittas, starting with the panca-dvaravajjana-citta, experience the object which has impinged on one of the senses. As we have seen, rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. If the rupa which has impinged on one of the senses arose at the same time as the atita-bhavanga, then that rupa will not have fallen away yet when the seventh javana-citta has fallen away; only fifteen moments of citta have passed since the atita-bhavanga arose. Thus there could be two more cittas in that process which directly experience the object. After the javana- cittas two vipaka-cittas may arise which experience the object and these are the tadarammana-cittas (or tadalambana-cittas) They perform the function of tadalambana or tadarammana, which is sometimes translated as 'registering' or 'retention'. Tadarammana literally means 'that object'; the citta 'hangs on' to that object. When the tadarammana-cittas have fallen away the sense-door process has run its full cruise. If the rupa which impinges on one of the senses has arisen before the atita-bhavanga, the process cannot run its full course, because the rupa falls away before the tadarammana-cittas can arise. Only in the sense-door process kamma can, after the javana-cittas, produce the tadarammana-cittas which 'hang on' to the object. For those who are born in rupa-brahma planes where there are less conditions for sense-impressions, and for those who are born in arupa-brahma planes where there are no sense- impressions, there are no tadarammana-cittas. [Birth in a rupo-brahma plane is the result of rupa vacarakusala citta (rupa-jhanacitta) and birth in an arupa-brahma plane is the result of arupavacara kusala citta (arupa- hanacitta).] Summarizing the cittas which succeed one another when rupa impinges on one of the senses and becomes the object of cittas of a sense-door process: 1. Atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) 2. Bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) 3. Bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga) 4. Panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting) consciousness) 5. Dvi-panca-vinnana (seeing-consciousness, etc.) 6. Sampaticchana-citta (receiving-consciousness) 7. Santirana-citta (investigating-consciousness) 8. Votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness) 9. Javana-citta} kusala cittas or akusala cittas (in the case of non - arahats), 'running through' the object 10. Javana-citta 11. Javana-citta 12. Javana-citta 13. Javana-citta 14. Javana-citta 15. Javana-citta 16. Tadarammana-citta (registering-consciousness) 17. Tadarammana-citta (registering-consciousness) 14228 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 8:44am Subject: ahimsa and coexisting with critters Hi Chris, I can relate to sharing living space with uninvited guests. Geckos walk up the ceiling and the walls, cockroaches freeze in their tracks and twitch nervously when I look at them, mosquitos here are different than the mainland. They're smaller, and make a barely audible buzzing sound so you don't usually notice them until after you're bitten. Ants are half the size as mainland ones and twice as fast. Centipedes have pretty toxic stings, they like to crawl into people's beds at night because it's warm and then if the unconscious humans bother them they get stung. Wasps are pretty common, and they started building a nest a month ago right on the stairway which is the only path I can take to get to my door. > ....Precepts are not to be kept only when > convenient...... At the same time, the ideal of ahimsa is impossible to achieve, we are constantly having to kill to survive and make the choice/compromise. Your body's immune system cells are constantly killing pathogens - bacteria, viruses, 2nd hand incense smoke created by Buddhists in your lungs. Do we extend metta and no killing precept to microscopic pathogens? I admire how theravada monks try to make every effort to not kill mosquitos, but I find it odd how they aren't allowed to drop any hints to the laypeople donors that vegetarian food offerings would minimize killing. That's just another example of imperfect compromises and shows the impossibility of carrying out ahimsa all the way. Here's how I dealt with some of my guests: 1) Geckos - they're cute, and they don't do anything that bothers me other than leave droppings here and there. I don't mind them. 2) Cockroaches - they're ugly, and they startle me sometimes but they leave me alone, I leave them alone. 3) Ants - You wouldn't believe the lengths I go to in order not to kill them. Again, I empathize with the dukkha of their struggle just to get food and survive, so as long as they don't attack me, I leave them alone. Sometimes they must experience some hard times, because they even go after Frank food, which is the blandest, no salt, no sauce, no sugar, simple nutritious goo that I eat for the continuance of my body. Even monks would find the food I eat hard to take. Just the other night, I started eating some leftover from lunch when I noticed it was overrun with ants. I thought what a shame to throw away such a large pot of nutritious leftover Frank food, so I figured those ants would probably realize there was nothing interesting to them after awhile and leave. Sure enough, after a few hours, they had abandoned my food, and I happily ate it. 4) mosquitos, fleas, ticks, carrier of deadly parasites and virus that like to bite you - I vow not to kill any living beings, except female mosquitos (male ones don't go after you). Why? You can't compromise. Even if you offer them one free drink, they relentlessly attack you again and again until they die. I try to kill them with a minimum of anger and joy. That's my compromise. 5) wasps: So like I was saying, this nest of wasps was starting to expand, and it's on my stairway, which means I had to walk about 1 foot next to it several times a day. As the nest got bigger, more wasps hung out. I figured the power of my metta was mighty indeed. They didn't bother me, until last week one misguided wasp stung me. I actually spent about a week wearing body armor every time I walked past them, contemplated setting up a ladder to bypass them, etc. I researched all my options, but concluded that there was no way to negotiate, and if I didn't kill them, they would eventually sting me again or the next tenant who moved in after me. So I had them exterminated, and felt really bad about it. They were just trying to survive and protect the queen. 6) Terrorists on commercial airlines - under certain circumstances, if no other skillful option seemed viable, I would kill them directly by my own hands and not feel one iota of regret. > ....Precepts are not to be kept only when > convenient...... I still don't believe in the death penalty, but I do believe in making the most skillful choice under duress even if it means violating the killing precept. At the same time, I realize the limitations of my own wisdom. I very well may see things differently when I evolve. -fk 14229 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 8:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (4) Group Hi, one aspect of Maha-Tissa's enlightenment is that it turns on the perception of the undesirable. I think by far the most common reason the Buddha uses to establish not-self is that a self cannot be something undesirable. What is impermanent is not self because what is impermanent is undesirable. There are other reasons, no control and elusiveness, but I think even they are understood to devolve into undesirableness. The mahayana treats elusiveness as a neutral phenomenon, neither desirable nor undesirable, and there is no particular problem with this. What I see as a problem, however, is that a psychological sense of self (as opposed to a metaphysical one for example) has no difficulty accomodating a negative self image. So just because something is undesirable does not disqualify it from being 'me.' In thinking about this problem, it occurred to me that there are actually two different kinds of subjectivity that make up a psychological self. One is a cognitive subjectivity which consists of a citta and its cetasikas; the other is, it seems to me, conceit (mana). In satipatthana all objects are not self simply because they are object and therefore not subject. And, the subject that observes conceit cannot have conceit as one of its cetasikas because it is sati. Of course, the same can be said about the various roots, but I think the heart of this sense of 'I' and 'me' is conceit. So the point of this email is to recommend that you look for and recognize conceit as often as possible. Simply doing that is to recognize that it is not self because it is an object. best wishes, Larry 14230 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 5:05pm Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi Howard, S:>> The pain is mostly vedana, dukkha. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I tend to disagree on this, though I'm far from certain. I think > that > pains come in a wide variety, in terms of both degree and kind. I think > that > they are rupas. ..... As I read in the texts, the only rupas experienced through the bodysense are solidity, temperature and pressure as discussed. This is just as you suggested in this example: ..... > .... for example, a feeling of tremendous crushing pressure and > heaviness in > the chest (from a heart attack) would be the rupa, and the pain could be > the > associated vedana. ..... Under “Pain’ in the Sammohavinondani, Commentary to Vibhanga, we read this colourful description of bodily painful feeling (dukkha vedana) and mental unpleasant feeling (domanassa vedana): ..... “For in one who is afflicted with the pain due to cutting off the hands and feet and of the ears and nose and is lying in the refuge for the helpless with an unclean pot in front of him, there arises great bodily pain when maggots come out from the openings of his wounds. And, on seeing crowds enjoying a festival and wearing cloth dyed in many colours and beautiful ornaments, great mental pain arises in him. Thus firstly should bodily pain be understood as the basis for the two kinds of pain. Furthermore: “This pain of body that afflicts produces further pain of mind as well, And that accordingly is why this specially is known as suffering”. Those who are seized with mental pain, however, tear their hair and thump their breasts and twist and writhe, they throw themselves over cliffs, use the knife, swallow poison, hang themselves with ropes, enter into fires; remorseful and with burning mind, they thinbk on this or that misfortune. Thus should mental pain be understood as the basis for both kinds of pain.” ***** No need for my comments. Hopefully, i’ve got everyone’s attention now;-)) Later in the same text, there is a ‘Classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness (satipatthanavibhanga). Under ‘Contemplation of Feeling’ (p.324 PTS trans), it clarifies that awareness of pleasant (or painful) feeling is not the same as the conventional awareness of such that we all know: ..... “but as regards sukham vedaa.m vediyamaano (feeling a pleasant feeling), etc, sukha.m vedana.m (a pleasant feeling) feeling a pleasant bodily or mental feeling, he understands: “I understand a pleasant feeling.’ Herein, although certainly children lying on their backs, drinking their mother’s milk and so on know: ‘We feel pleasure,’ nevertheless this is not said with reference to such knowing. For such knowing does not abandon the belief in a being, or abolish the perception of a being, and it is neither a meditation subject nor the development of a foundation of mindfulness.......” It continues to stress that feelings are to be understood as anatta (not self): “..Feeling may come to be because of the object which is its basis (vatthu). Therefore he knows acordingly that “feeling feels by making this or that basis for pleasure and so on its object, but ‘I feel’ are merely a conventional expression....” ***** It may not be apparent where or what rupas exactly are involved, even for those with very highly developed wisdom. It’s not necessary to pinpoint and attempts to try are likely to be with lobha or selection again. Just after this passage, there is the interesting account of an Elder who was sick. He was ‘groaning and rolling from side to side through the violence of his feeling. A young bhikkhu said to him: ‘What place is hurting, venerable sir?’ ‘Friend, there is no particular place that hurts. It is just feeling that feels by making the basis its object.’ The Elder endured. The wind (-y humour) burst up to his heart. His entrails lay in a heap on the bed. the Elder showed to the young bhikkhu.” The Elder makes some comments about endurance and then ‘yoking together energy and tranquillity, reached Arahatship together with the discriminations and as “Equal-Headed One” (samasiisin) he attained complete extinction .” ***** >However, this just doesn't quite match my experience > of > pain. I can easily distinguish between crushing pressure and heaviness, > on > the one hand, and actual physical pain (which *hurts*), with *both* of > these > being completely physical, completely rupic (though, of course, > discerned by > vi~n~nana) and "tasted" with the vedana of unpleasantness. ..... Well, Howard, I hope you never have to endure the dukkha in these graphic accounts quoted to prove the point;-) I know you’re also patiently reading these accounts and saying to yourself “hmm, more abhidhamma and commentaries.....where do we read this in the suttas?”. As I have the Mahahattipadopama Sutta (Elephant’s Footprint), MN28 already marked with a yellow sticker with your name on, let’s look there too;-): Let me just give a short quote to show that even in the suttas, pain is vedana: ..... “So then, if others abuse, revile, scold, and harass a bhikkhu (who has seen this element as it actually is), he understands thus: “This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent.....” ..... You have mentioned in one or two other posts, I think, that you find it difficult to accept objects are inherently pleasant or unpleasant. I certainly agree that most the finding pleasant and unpleasant has little to do with the initial experience of rupas, but far more to do with the accumulated liking and disliking of what is expereinced. In a Commentary quote to this sutta (the simile of the saw segment), we read in B.Bodhi’s translation about equanimity to ‘agreeable and disagreeable objects’: ..... “Equanimity supported by the wholesome” (upekkhaa kusalanissitaa) is the equanimity of insight, the sixfold equanimity of neither attraction nor aversion towards agreeable and disagreeable objects that appear at the six sense doors...” ***** .>................ In > this view, the conditioning sensations are rupa, and it is only the > resulting > affective "taste" that is vedana. > I suspect that it is this "traditional view" what the Buddha > actually > presented. The two views are *close* to interchangeable, possibly > because it > is so hard for us to sort out and separate bodily sensation from the > associated affective taste. ..... I agree that it is quite complex and ‘hard to sort out’. Even when we refer to ‘itches and tingles”, like with the ‘rose’, thinking and concepts follow the experiencing of rupas so rapidly. Only direct sati and panna will directly know what is experienced (i.e the rupa) and what is the vedana without any confusion or need to ‘work out’. It’s important, I think, to understand that vedana and rupas are quite distinct and that the bodily feelings are quite different from the mental feelings. This knowledge (even if largely intellectual) can be a condition for direct understanding of these phenomena.Like in the quote about the elder above, it’ll depend on accumulations what will be the object of sati at any given time. Howard, I appreciate your sincere and practical interest. I’ve enjoyed the excuse to type out the references (though I look f/w to having a scanner one day;-)) and thank your for helping me to reflect further as always. Sarah ===== 14231 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah] Victor Since you came in on my thread, I trust you won't mind me coming on on yours :-)) --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hi Dan, > > My suggestion is: > > Sit in a secluded place. Cross the legs. Close the eyes. Keep the > back erect. Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities. > Focus the mind on in and out breathing. After sitting, you might > want to check your experience against the definition/description of > right concentration in the Pali Canon. If you have a teacher, talk > to him to get feedback too. > Regards, > Victor I have been following this thread with interest. I have a couple of questions to throw in for discussion. 1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and how is that accomplished? 2. What is the difference in the mental state between-- a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and whose mind is focussed on in and out breathing? Jon > --- "onco111" wrote: > > Dear Victor, > > Most critical is to know the difference between "Right > concentration" > > and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop > all > > by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there > is > > no understanding of the difference between concentration and right > > concentration and no development of right concentration. > > > > What is your suggestion for developing right concentration? > > > > Dan > > > > > > > Hi Dan and Sarah, > > > > > > Questions for you: > > > > > > How would you develop right concentration? > > > What is your suggestion on developing right concentration? > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor 14232 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 6:04pm Subject: Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters Hi Frank, First - just in case we ever meet, allow me to assure you, I am not a terrorist. :) I seem to have an unwritten agreement with the gecko - I think Brisbane is about the extreme southern fringe of their habitable area. He/she comes in for an hour or two at night, eats any insects, and squeezes back out under the door, and lives on the back verandah - so cockroaches are one 'critter' I don't currently have. At the risk of stating the obvious - regarding mosquitos - I have insect screens on the windows, and use insect repellent when outside in an area likely to have lots of them. If one gets inside, I catch them in a clear floppy disk box and release them outside. Similarly with flies in summer. Cane toads I catch in a plastic shopping bag, and take up to the SDA church which has the street light, and release them. Only one 'round up' each summer. Ants - they only come in for a day or two when there has been lots of rain and the ground is saturated, and it is difficult to find food. Though 'fire ants' (who stowed away on a ship from the USA a couple of years ago) are spreading in South East Queensland, despite efforts by the Government to eradicate them. Apparently they can be a danger to native and domestic animal life, and perhaps human babies. All the creepy crawlies seem to go into a different part of their life cycle in winter, and leave the field mouse and the lady rat scavenging for human leftovers. (I've got a friend in the Environmental movement looking for non-harming cage traps for the rat.) I think the Precept against harming refers to Sentient Beings (happy to be corrected on this). A Sentient Being is able "to experience and to suffer, and has the related ability, in this or a future life, to transcend suffering by attaining enlightenment" (This would require a brain/nervous system?) "One's present fortunate position as a human is only a temporary state of affairs, dependent on past good kamma. One cannot isolate oneself from the plight of animals, as one has oneself experienced it, just as animals have had past rebirths as humans. Moreover, in the ancient round of rebirths, every being one comes across, down to an insect, will at some time have been a close relative or friend, and have been very good to one. Bearing this in mind, one should return the kindness in the present" - [ 'An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics' Peter Harvey p.151] Great to hear conscientous attempts at ahimsa, Frank. metta, Chris --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Chris, > I can relate to sharing living space with uninvited > guests. Geckos walk up the ceiling and the walls, > cockroaches freeze in their tracks and twitch > nervously when I look at them, mosquitos here are > different than the mainland. They're smaller, and make > a barely audible buzzing sound so you don't usually > notice them until after you're bitten. Ants are half > the size as mainland ones and twice as fast. > Centipedes have pretty toxic stings, they like to > crawl into people's beds at night because it's warm > and then if the unconscious humans bother them they > get stung. Wasps are pretty common, and they started > building a nest a month ago right on the stairway > which is the only path I can take to get to my door. > > > ....Precepts are not to be kept only when > > convenient...... > > At the same time, the ideal of ahimsa is impossible > to achieve, we are constantly having to kill to > survive and make the choice/compromise. Your body's > immune system cells are constantly killing pathogens - > bacteria, viruses, 2nd hand incense smoke created by > Buddhists in your lungs. Do we extend metta and no > killing precept to microscopic pathogens? > I admire how theravada monks try to make every > effort to not kill mosquitos, but I find it odd how > they aren't allowed to drop any hints to the laypeople > donors that vegetarian food offerings would minimize > killing. That's just another example of imperfect > compromises and shows the impossibility of carrying > out ahimsa all the way. > Here's how I dealt with some of my guests: > > 1) Geckos - they're cute, and they don't do anything > that bothers me other than leave droppings here and > there. I don't mind them. > 2) Cockroaches - they're ugly, and they startle me > sometimes but they leave me alone, I leave them alone. > 3) Ants - You wouldn't believe the lengths I go to in > order not to kill them. Again, I empathize with the > dukkha of their struggle just to get food and survive, > so as long as they don't attack me, I leave them > alone. Sometimes they must experience some hard times, > because they even go after Frank food, which is the > blandest, no salt, no sauce, no sugar, simple > nutritious goo that I eat for the continuance of my > body. Even monks would find the food I eat hard to > take. Just the other night, I started eating some > leftover from lunch when I noticed it was overrun with > ants. I thought what a shame to throw away such a > large pot of nutritious leftover Frank food, so I > figured those ants would probably realize there was > nothing interesting to them after awhile and leave. > Sure enough, after a few hours, they had abandoned my > food, and I happily ate it. > 4) mosquitos, fleas, ticks, carrier of deadly > parasites and virus that like to bite you - I vow not > to kill any living beings, except female mosquitos > (male ones don't go after you). Why? You can't > compromise. Even if you offer them one free drink, > they relentlessly attack you again and again until > they die. I try to kill them with a minimum of anger > and joy. That's my compromise. > 5) wasps: So like I was saying, this nest of wasps was > starting to expand, and it's on my stairway, which > means I had to walk about 1 foot next to it several > times a day. As the nest got bigger, more wasps hung > out. I figured the power of my metta was mighty > indeed. They didn't bother me, until last week one > misguided wasp stung me. I actually spent about a week > wearing body armor every time I walked past them, > contemplated setting up a ladder to bypass them, etc. > I researched all my options, but concluded that there > was no way to negotiate, and if I didn't kill them, > they would eventually sting me again or the next > tenant who moved in after me. So I had them > exterminated, and felt really bad about it. They were > just trying to survive and protect the queen. > 6) Terrorists on commercial airlines - under certain > circumstances, if no other skillful option seemed > viable, I would kill them directly by my own hands and > not feel one iota of regret. > > > ....Precepts are not to be kept only when > > convenient...... > I still don't believe in the death penalty, but I do > believe in making the most skillful choice under > duress even if it means violating the killing precept. > At the same time, I realize the limitations of my own > wisdom. I very well may see things differently when I > evolve. > > -fk > > 14233 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 2:08pm Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sarah - Thank you for the helpful and detailed reply. I will respond here just to one little piece. In a message dated 7/9/02 5:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > As I read in the texts, the only rupas experienced through the bodysense > are solidity, temperature and pressure as discussed. This is just as you > suggested in this example: > ..... > > .... for example, a feeling of tremendous crushing pressure and > > heaviness in > > the chest (from a heart attack) would be the rupa, and the pain could be > > the > > associated vedana. > ============================== Okay, this gets precise: solidity, temperature, and pressure - that is bodily rupa. This then presumably leaves physical pain as vedana (normally, but not always, felt as unpleasant). But where does this leave such things as itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of "numbness", queasy pit-of-the-stomach feelings/"butterflies in the stomach", the odd feelings on knees/shoulders associated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst, etc, etc. The question is whether these are varieties, perhaps in combination, of solidity, temperature, and pressure, and whether even pains, themselves, are varieties of these? That seems quite doubtful. It seems more likely that these are a different category things, namely automatic responses to variously sensed rupas (through various ayatana) rather than varieties of bodily rupas themselves. That is, these are vedana. If none of these things are (combinations of) varieties of solidity, temperature, and pressure, but, rather, are automatic bodily/mental responses to phassa (in biological terms, perhaps a kind of thrashing about of the nervous system), then they are all vedana, not rupa, and the Goenka interpretation is correct, with pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutrality being (conditioned) *characteristics* of vedana, but not the vedana themselves. [So, for example, contact with certain rupas produces the vedana of tingling on ones cheek, a tingling that is, say, neutral in feel. There would then be three things involved, the original contact, the resulting vedana of tingling, and, not really separate from the tingling, its characteristic of "neutral feel".] At this point, I still see two alternative views, with the case not having been fully made for either. One last point: As far as one's "salvation" is concerned, to use a very non-Buddhist term, this whole issue is not of great importance. (It is only of interest in having a clear understanding of terminology.) What *is* important is in realizing that all these experienced phenomena, whatever we call them, are impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and impersonal - neither me nor mine. And directly seeing them through vipassana bhavana as they arise and cease enables the direct understanding of their true nature, the wisdom that frees us from clinging to them. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14234 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 6:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Hi Larry, Others have given helpful comments on the ‘not practicing meditation’ theme. To reiterate, my interest is in understanding what the Buddha taught in this respect. Words like ‘jhayati’, ‘vipassana’, ‘bhavana’ and so on, need to be considered carefully in context and I believe we need to consider and reflect on many parts of the Tipitaka for this. Actually, in the post heading (i.e ‘jhana’) you used, I thought I was (at least my intention was) to ‘challenge’ Dan on the way one reads the texts and interprets experiences(in this case Vism), rather than anything else. On this note, I agree with you about the ‘imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma’. Unless the study helps develop more understanding of present realities, I think it’s quite useless. We have to know our ‘limits’ in this regard, rather than collect details ‘in case they come in useful on a rainy day’. I like the way you consider carefully and practically. Having said that, I find DSG is a condition for me to study many details which I might not otherwise have any ‘need’ or interest in. For example, details of jhanas or nibbana have never been of much interest to me at all, but I can see that for some people, because of their particular practice or understanding, it’s essential to know more details, even if only to clear out erroneous views. This is what I wrote in my first message to Dan in this regard: “We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I’m discussing with Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn’t the clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa in practice without any doubt, then it’s impossible to really understand these more refined levels of wisdom.” Many suttas such as “Living by the Dhamma” (AN, V,73) which Howard recently pointed out, discuss just this danger of ‘mastering’ dhamma in theory only: “ “Here, monk, a monk masters the dhamma - the discourses, mixed prose, expositions verses, inspired utterances, brief sayings, birth stories, marvellous accounts, and miscellanies. He passes the day engaged in that mastery of the Dhamma, he neglects seclusion, he neither applies himself to internal tranaquillity of mind nor further understands its meaning with wisdom. This is called a monk who is engrossed in mastery over learning, not one who lives by the Dhamma.”” ***** We read other suttas and commentaries (such as the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta) where the monks were so conceited with their so-called knowledge, that they were unable to appreciate the essence of the Teachings. So your reminders are well-taken, Larry. In Nina’s “Perfections” under ‘the Perfection of Truthfulness’(sacca parami), she gives many examples of how we think about being in ‘another situation’ without realizing each one ‘is conditioned already’. This applies to times when we have the idea that the quiet place or cushion would be better, or the study of the dhamma book or even dhamma discussions as Nina suggests below: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm “....It may happen that we start to develop right understanding and then, after ten or more years, when we still do not see much result, we become impatient. We may wonder whether being in another situation would help us to have more sati. We do not realize that each situation is conditioned al-ready. Any object, also kusala citta, can become object of clinging. We may not even notice that we prefer other situa-tions, other objects to the present one. Even subtle clinging to kusala can be dangerous, because it makes it most difficult for us to develop understanding in daily life. ....... “During my last afternoon in Delhi we had a Dhamma discussion in the lobby of the hotel. I was clinging to particular situa-tions which, I thought, were favorable for sati, and Khun Sujin tried to bring me back to the present moment by her way of an-swering my questions. I thought that when there would not be an occasion for Dhamma discussions I would be missing out opportu-nities to learn...” ***** Sacca (truth) is not just a question of following a precept, but being 'sincere' in one's practice and development of understanding, to really know realities. So Larry, as Rob K pointed out, whether you’re studying abhidhamma, sitting on the cushion or vegetating in front of the TV, there are still only namas and rupas appearing... Hope this helps clarify a little and ‘rights’any imbalance;-). Sarah ==== 14235 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I know a lot of folks who do considerable walking as exercise, but I > never noticed that they particularly developed "durable concentration". Quite so (myself included! - we walkers are a very *unconcentrated* lot, actually). Here, though, we are not talking about any ordinary kind of walking, but what Bh. Bodhi refers to as 'walking back and forth'. This means, as I understand it, walking along a walkway of some sort prepared for the purpose, usually in conjunction with periods of sitting. I read the reference to durable concentration as being to one who is developing (higher levels of) samatha. > Oh - one more point: It seems that every ongoing lineage within both > Theravada and Mahayana has a walking meditation practice of long standing > (centuries), and these differ hardly at all from each other. Don't you find > this to be a rather surprising coincidence? (The Chinese, BTW, do two kinds: > Slow walking with attention to the smallest details of position, placement, > and sensation, and normal-speed walking with attention to the body as a > whole, whereas the Theravadins seem to concentrate on the former.) What you say is no doubt correct. But to me the only question is the significance that the walking is given in the texts. I'm not sure that how it has come to be generally understood all these centuries later is of much relevance to that question. By coincidence, I just came across the Nanda Sutta (A. VIII, 9) at p.200 of Bh. Bodhi's 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'. This sutta describes 4 respects in which Nanda 'lives the perfect and pure holy life', namely, by guarding the sense doors, by being moderate in eating, by cultivating wakefulness and by setting up mindfulness and clear comprehension. The text explains how each of these is achieved. In relation to the cultivating of wakefulness, it says that "Nanda purifies his mind from obstructive thoughts during the day while walking back and forth or sitting", and likewise during the first watch of the night, sleeping during the middle watch only. In the last watch of the night "he again purifies his mind from obstructive thoughts while walking back and forth and sitting. This is Nanda's cultivation of wakefulness." In this instance the walking back and forth is clearly related to the cultivation of wakefulness, and not the aspects of guarding the sense doors or setting up mindfulness and clear comprehension (awareness and understanding). As far as I am aware, the idea of 'slowness' as a means or aid to the development of understanding is not found anywhere in the texts. Jon 14236 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 11:35pm Subject: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends How are you? The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes the fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render it in as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax Walk- through" on the translation. I hope you find it useful. "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, produced by Vipassana research Institute . THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH Translated By Suan Lu Zaw Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is the noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery has been accomplished. GRAMMARTICAL NOTES Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of realities This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" in the modern context. Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard-of realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis here is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had occurred to him, not on his ignorance of realities. Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening. Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight the contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and the action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... should be followed through). Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble truth as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths. Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the sound effect. Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows. Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. Section 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa. Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96 Paathika Atthakathaa. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org/ 14237 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no 7. Perfections Ch 2, no 7. We read in the Commentary about the Bodhisatta¹s accumulation of the perfection of giving: When he gives a material gift, the Great Man gives food, thinking: ²May I, by this gift, enable beings to achieve long-life, beauty, happiness, strength, intelligence, and the supreme fruit of unsullied bliss.² He gives drink, wishing to allay the thirst of sensual defilements; garments to gain the adornments of shame and moral dread and the golden complexion (of a Buddha); vehicles for attaining the modes of psychic potency and the bliss of nibbåna; scents for producing the sweet scent of virtue; garlands and unguents for producing the beauty of the Buddha-qualities; seats for producing the seat on the terrace of enlightenment; bedding for producing the bed of a Tathågata¹s rest; dwellings so he might become a refuge for beings; lamps so he might obtain the five eyes 4). He gives visible forms for producing the fathom-wide aura (surrounding a Buddha); sounds for producing the Brahmå-like voice (of a Buddha); tastes for endearing himself to all the world; and tangibles for acquiring a Buddha¹s elegance. He gives medicines so he might later give the ageless and deathless state of nibbåna. He gives slaves the gift of freedom so he might later emancipate beings from the slavery of defilements. He gives blameless amusements and enjoyments in order to produce delight in the true Dhamma. He gives his own children as a gift so that he might adopt all beings as his children by granting them an ariyan birth. He gives his wives as a gift in order that he might become master over the entire world. He gives gifts of gold, gems, pearls, coral, etc. in order to achieve the major marks of physical beauty (characteristics of a Buddha¹s body), and the gifts of the diverse means of beautification in order to achieve the minor features of physical beauty. He gives his treasuries as a gift in order to obtain the treasury of the true Dhamma; the gift of his kingdom in order to become the king of the Dhamma; the gift of monasteries, parks, ponds, and groves in order to achieve the jhånas, etc.; the gift of his feet in order that he might approach the terrace of enlightenment with feet marked with the auspicious wheels; the gift of his hands in order that he might give to beings the rescuing hand of the true Dhamma to help them across the four floods 5) ; the gift of his ears, nose, etc. in order to obtain the spiritual faculties of faith, etc.; the gift of his eyes in order to obtain the universal eye; the gift of his flesh and blood with the thought: ³May my body be the means of life for all the world! May it bring welfare and happiness to all beings at all times, even on occasions of merely seeing, hearing, recollecting, or ministering to me!² And he gives the gift of his head in order to become supreme in all the world. All his deeds of generosity contributed to his realization of the four noble Truths when he became the Sammå-sambuddha. We read further on about the gifts of the Bodhisatta: The gift of sounds (sadda dåna) should be understood by way of the sounds of drums, etc. It is certainly not possible to give a sound as one gives a cluster of lotuses, tearing it out by its bulbs and roots and placing it in the hands. But one gives a gift of sound by giving its base. Thus he makes a gift of sound by presenting a musical instrument, such as drums or tom toms, to the Triple Gem. One may offer a drum for the benefit of a temple as an offering of sound, because it can be used to announce the time, the hours or the watches (of the day and night) and so on. One may play music as an offering of sound to the Triple Gem, by using instruments such as a drum or tom tom. One may arrange for oneself or for someone else to use an instrument such as a drum, with the intention to give sound as an offering. Footnotes: 4. These five eyes are the fleshly eye, the divine eye by which he sees the passing away and rebirth of beings, the wisdom eye, by which he sees all dhammas with their characteristics and their conditions, the Buddha-eye, by which he sees the dispositions of beings and the maturity of their faculties, and the universal eye, his knowledge of omniscience. 5. Floods, oghas, are sensual desire, desire for existence, wrong views and ignorance. 14238 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 3:57am Subject: Re: A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Larry, Howard, everyone, I think it makes perfect sense that wholesome action should bear pleasant fruit and unwholesome action should bear unpleasant fruit. It seems that the only difficulty any of us are having with this, is that it is hard to imagine, or conceptualise, how anything can be *inherently* pleasant or unpleasant. But so what? Doesn't the difficulty in finding a conceptual equivalent of a paramattha dhamma simply illustrate how inadequate concepts are? Perhaps the lesson to be learnt here is that imitation is not the way to go. Admittedly, the Buddha's discourses were presented mainly in conventional (conceptual), terms but I'm not so sure that he wanted us to conceptualise (imagine, visualise) what we, as worldlings, cannot see. This relates back to the matter of formal practice: Because we can't directly know realities, some of us settle for closely observing concepts (breath, thoughts, postures etc.) instead. This is done with the intention of seeing them as anicca, dukkha and anatta even though that is technically incorrect. (Concepts are neither anicca nor dukkha and are only anatta by default.) The Buddha taught that we worldlings are, "without regard for the ariyans, without regard for the ways of the ariyans."(Mulapariyaya- sutta) It would be better to understand this than to deny it. We `have regard' for the ariyans when we follow them, not when we imitate them. Kind regards :-) Ken H 14239 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:29am Subject: ADL ch. 15 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 15 (2) The tadarammana-citta experiences an object not only through the five sense-doors, but also through the mind-door. In the sense-door process tadarammana-citta can arise only when the object has not fallen away yet. If tadarammana-cittas arise in the sense-door process they can arise also in the succeeding mind-door process. The tadarammana-citta is a vipakacitta which can experience an object through six doors. If the object is visible object, which, in the eye-door process, is experienced by citta through the eye-door, then the tadarammana-cittas of that process also experience the object through the eye-door. The tadarammana-cittas of the mind-door process succeeding the eye-door process experience that object through the mind-door. If the object which contacts the sense-door is unpleasant, all vipakacittas of that process and thus also the tadarammana-cittas, if they arise, are akusala vipaka. The tadarammana-cittas of the mind-door process succeeding that sense-door process are also akusala vipaka. If the object which contacts the sense-door is pleasant, all vipakacittas of that process, tadarammana-cittas included, are kusala vipaka. It is the same with the tadarammana cittas of the subsequent mind-door process. The function of tadarammana can be performed by eleven different kinds of citta: by three ahetuka vipakacittas (unaccompanied by roots or hetus) and by eight sahetuka vipakacittas (accompanied by sobhana hetus). If the tadarammana-citta is ahetuka, the function of tadarammana is performed by santirana-citta. As we have seen, santirana-citta, which is always ahetuka vipaka, can perform more than one function. Santirana-citta performs the function of santirana (investigating) when it arises in the sense-door process and succeeds sampaticchana-citta. Apart from the function of santirana, santirana-citta can perform the functions of patisandhi (rebirth), bhavanga, cuti (dying) and, moreover, it can perform the function of tadarammana. As stated before, there are three kinds of santirana-citta: 1. Santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha (indifferent feeling). 2. Santiana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha. 3. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by somanassa (pleasant feeling). Only the first and the second kind of santirana-citta (santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka, and santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha) can perform the functions of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti. The function of santirana (investigating) can be performed by all three kinds of santirana-citta. As we have seen, santirana-citta accompanied by somanassa performs the function of santirana when the object is extraordinarily pleasant. All the time cittas arise and fall away, performing different functions. The last function of citta in life is the function of cuti (dying). When we say in conventional language that a person has died, the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness), which is the last citta of that life, has fallen away. The cuti-citta is succeeded by the patisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness) of the following life. Death is unavoidable. Everybody, no matter whether he is in one of the hell planes, in the human-being plane or in one of the heavenly planes has to have cuti-citta. We read in the teachings about birth, old age, sickness and death. Old age is mentioned immediately after birth, before sickness is mentioned. The reason is that as soon as we are born, we are already ageing, we are already on our way to death. We read in the 'Khuddaka Nikaya' ('sutta-Nipata', 'Woven Cadences';, Ch.lll, The Great Chapter, par. 8, The Dart, vs. 574-583, I use the translation by E.M. Hare.): How insignificant is man's lot here, How brief, obscure, how troubled, fraught with ill! there is no means whereby man shall not die: Death follows on decay: such is life's course. The early ripening fruit hazards the fall: Ever death's hazard haunts the lives of men. Just as the potter's earthen vessel end In shards, so too man's life. Young and mature, The fool and sage, come all within the power Of death: death is for all the common lot; And of death's victims passing to yond world, No father saves his son, no kith his kin. See! while they crowd and gaze and weep, their kin Are one by one, as ox to slaughter, borne. Thus smitten is the world by old age and death, The wise world-plight discern, lamenting not. Thou knowest not the 'whence' or 'whither' way And, seeing neither course, grievest in vain! 14240 From: yuzhonghao Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:32am Subject: Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah] Hi Jon and all, Hmmm, this thread is not mine anyway. Questions: 1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and how is that accomplished? Answers: Unskillful qualities are to be understood as passion, aversion, and delusion. They are also to be understood as sensual desire, ill- will, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and worry, and doubt. When one withdraws from sensuality and unskillful qualities, one abandons them. How is that accomplished? Please refer this discourse in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn020.html Question: 2. What is the difference in the mental state between-- a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and whose mind is focussed on in and out breathing? For Question 2, Jon, I would suggest to: Sit in a secluded place with leg crossed and eye closed. Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities. Focus on in and out breathing. See for yourself, Jon. Regards, Victor --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Since you came in on my thread, I trust you won't mind me coming on on > yours :-)) > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > > My suggestion is: > > > > Sit in a secluded place. Cross the legs. Close the eyes. Keep the > > back erect. Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities. > > Focus the mind on in and out breathing. After sitting, you might > > want to check your experience against the definition/description of > > right concentration in the Pali Canon. If you have a teacher, talk > > to him to get feedback too. > > Regards, > > Victor > > I have been following this thread with interest. I have a couple of > questions to throw in for discussion. > > 1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and how > is that accomplished? > > 2. What is the difference in the mental state between-- > a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and > b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and whose > mind is focussed on in and out breathing? > > Jon 14241 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Ken, I agree about the 'so what.' It doesn't make the least difference whether a vipaka citta is kusala or akusala. What does make a difference is whether the reaction to it (javana) is with clear comprehension (sampajanna), or not. As I understand it, clear comprehension would discriminate desirable and undesirable, but there is nothing esoteric about this value. It's just what bankers and merchants think is desirable and undesirable. In other words, it is conventional or consensus valuation. The 'ariyan' part is seeing which ever it is as anicca, dukkha, anatta. We can do that, but maybe not all the time. best wishes, Larry 14242 From: sukinderpal Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:53am Subject: Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters Hi Frank, Firstly I like to say that I enjoyed your post to Christine on Kamma very much. And like her, I think you should write more often. Regarding this post I would however like to make a small comment. You said: > I admire how theravada monks try to make every > effort to not kill mosquitos, but I find it odd how > they aren't allowed to drop any hints to the laypeople > donors that vegetarian food offerings would minimize > killing. That's just another example of imperfect > compromises and shows the impossibility of carrying > out ahimsa all the way. I think, when we go to the market for instance, we can look at the meat and think it as food and potential source of protein, or we can think that it is a dead cow or pig and go on to wonder about why someone would kill it. We can pass the meat stall with dosa or indifference and move on to the vegetable stall and think that we are doing the right thing being a vegetarian. Or we can still buy the meat just so that we can feed ourselves and at the same time feel moved to talk to the butcher about dhamma and the harm in killing. Sometimes, being a vegetarian or non-vegetarian one may just feel that talking to ceratin people about non-harming will not help at all. So we just move on and eat what we eat and continue with concerning mainly with the purification of our own minds. In the case of the monk, he may like the meat and not desire that he be given vegetarian food as offering. Or he may just eat whatever is offered and allow the lessons of dhamma to have its effect on the lay follower as when and how it will, wothout interference. The veg. and non-veg. both have loads of arguments for and against. But I think we need to be concerned about the real "stain" in our minds, namely the kilesas, not the stain that we think exists out there. When we realize what the Buddha meant by the Middle Way, we will know that everything else is just mental proliferation. I agree with you about he inevitablity of killing small creatures simply because we are here. But ahimsa is not a matter of whether we do step on a cockroach or not no!? Isn't it a question of intention? Anticipating an enjoyable reply. Best wishes, Sukin. 14243 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah] --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Since you came in on my thread, I trust you won't mind me coming on on > yours :-)) > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > > My suggestion is: > > > > Sit in a secluded place. Cross the legs. Close the eyes. Keep the > > back erect. Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities. > > Focus the mind on in and out breathing. After sitting, you might > > want to check your experience against the definition/description of > > right concentration in the Pali Canon. If you have a teacher, talk > > to him to get feedback too. > > Regards, > > Victor > > I have been following this thread with interest. I have a couple of > questions to throw in for discussion. > > 1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and how > is that accomplished? > > 2. What is the difference in the mental state between-- > a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and > b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and whose > mind is focussed on in and out breathing? > > Jon Jon, Since you have jumped in on Victor's thread, may I jump in with you? Hmmn...the water seems tepid, just the way I like it, neither hot nor cold. Question: isn't it possible to focus on breathing without having a 'who' that is focussing? The consciousness that focusses on breathing can merely focus it, and then you get a 'breathing-focussed' citta, for better, worse, or neutral. Robert Ep. =============================== > > --- "onco111" wrote: > > > Dear Victor, > > > Most critical is to know the difference between "Right > > concentration" > > > and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop > > all > > > by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there > > is > > > no understanding of the difference between concentration and right > > > concentration and no development of right concentration. > > > > > > What is your suggestion for developing right concentration? > > > > > > Dan 14244 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) I would think that since walking, sitting and lying down are the three main positions of life, that there would be specialized practices of one kind or another for practicing mindfulness during these basic phases of physical living. It makes sense to me. Robert Ep. === --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I know a lot of folks who do considerable walking as exercise, but I > never noticed that they particularly developed "durable concentration". > Oh - one more point: It seems that every ongoing lineage within both > Theravada and Mahayana has a walking meditation practice of long standing > (centuries), and these differ hardly at all from each other. Don't you find > this to be a rather surprising coincidence? (The Chinese, BTW, do two kinds: > Slow walking with attention to the smallest details of position, placement, > and sensation, and normal-speed walking with attention to the body as a > whole, whereas the Theravadins seem to concentrate on the former.) > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 7/8/02 10:02:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > > > > Howard > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Hi, Jon - > > â€| > > > I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts > > certainly > > > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from > > the > > > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking > > > meditation in the open air." > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a > > translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'. According to the > > dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down > > (as given in both PED and CPED). If cankamana is the original, then the > > 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss. This is > > perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a > > prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the > > translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation'). > > > > I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by > > Goggy in a recent post. In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the > > original) they are: > > 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) > > 2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice > > 3) balancing between sitting and walking > > 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) > > 5) builds durable concentration. > > > > There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves > > 'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as > > far as the development of understanding is concerned. (Actually, these > > remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.) > > > > The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no > > precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of > > things. > > > > Jon 14245 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > … > > I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts > certainly > > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from > the > > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking > > meditation in the open air." > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a > translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'. According to the > dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down > (as given in both PED and CPED). If cankamana is the original, then the > 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss. This is > perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a > prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the > translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation'). Jon, Could you tell me the difference between seated contemplation and sitting meditation? Those seem pretty similar to me. Robert Ep. ============ > I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by > Goggy in a recent post. In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the > original) they are: > 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) > 2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice > 3) balancing between sitting and walking > 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) > 5) builds durable concentration. > > There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves > 'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as > far as the development of understanding is concerned. (Actually, these > remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.) > > The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no > precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of > things. > > Jon 14246 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > My criteria would also be whether a practice brings one towards the path > that > eventually brings one to enlightenment. Any benefits that do not lead > towards > enlightenment or that delay or lead away from enlightenment, would not be > wished > for, as they would prolong or increase suffering. > > The question is, whether these practices aid the progress towards > enlightenment > or > not. And I am not sure whether either of us can know that with certainty > either > pro or con. At best we have our educated, or less educated, guesses, and > mine > is > that if a practice creates conditions that are in line with the dhamma > then it > is > an aid towards the path of enlightenment, and if not, then not. If one > was to > develop genuine peacefulness and discernment through yoga, then the yoga > would > be > an aid towards enlightenment. If those qualities were developed on the > surface > but were accompanied by akusala pride in self at accomplishing these > qualities > or > if they were masking other akusala effects that were in the wrong > direction, > then > they would be obstacles, not aids. There is still going to be personal > interpretation involved. If a Sutta mentions that many arahants were > sitting > in > the cross-legged position while entering the jhanas; I am sure that you > will > say > this is a coincidence and that it is a description not a prescription; and > that > I > will say it is the path itself. Where do we each get our separate > interpretations? My guess is that it is because of our backgrounds and > tendencies: yours in Abhidhamma; mine in yoga and vipassana meditation as > well > as > mahayana studies. So is either one of us right, or are we just 'being > ourselves' > and following our own predilections in this lifetime? > > Jon: > Yes, a person's understanding of a given passage from the suttas is a > reflection of their personal interoperation and understanding. However, > the original intended meaning is not, and it is that that we need to try > to ascertain. > > You say, "If one was to develop genuine peacefulness and discernment > through yoga, then the yoga would be an aid towards enlightenment." > > Within the teachings there are discussions of the factors that if > developed lead to more understanding, so it is possible to compare those > parts of the texts with a given practice and see what similarities if any > there are. > > I would see as somewhat unreliable the approach of undertaking the > practice first and then 'checking' the perceived results against > descriptions found in the texts (if that's what you're refering to). I > would imagine that using that approach any number of practices could be > 'justified' as being an aid. Don’t you think it's rather subjective? Why > not first consider whether the practice in question talks about the same > things as are found in the teachings? > > Jon I wish I had the time to compare Patanjali's yoga sutras with the noble eightfold path. At present I don't. While the discernment of anatta is at least explicitly unique to Buddhism, there are many other aspects of practice that seem to be similar or parallel. Since samatha and vipassana, as well as various samadhis/jhanas, focussing on the nature of the mind, and discerning realities occur in both; I would say they have some path-goals in common. Where they may diverge, one would of course go further and continue on the Buddhist path. But we differ I think in that I don't have the assurance you seem to that there is a single objective meaning for each thing said by the Buddha and that it can be known with certainty. I think that meanings are contextualized by one's overall paradigm and global understanding of the path, and that such a context is inherently subjective. I don't think that's an impediment. Rather than striving for objective, scientific truth in Buddhism, I strive for a trained subjectivity that gradually gains personal understandings of Suttic truths from inside out, not outside in. The Buddha that is real is the Buddha within, the nature of consciousness itself, which may be misinterpreted by delusion, but is still present at all times, waiting to be discerned. So there are two things: there are the realities themselves as they arise for consciousness, and there is the gradual honing of clarity and understanding through the combination of Suttic understanding/contemplation and skillful practice at discernment, through meditation if you like, or through contemplative discernment in everyday life, if you prefer. So I see the Suttas as guides rather than answers; and I see the fruit in front of the eyes, not in the written word. One glance at a true reality will explain many suttas; but without them there would be no way to verify one's perception or to contextualize it in the overall path. So I see them working together. Robert Ep. 14247 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Shakti, > > I wasn’t going to join in the ‘Goenka corner’, but after seeing the date > in your post I can’t resist;-) > ..... > --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > > I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe. > ..... > “Snap”......same for me and now you have to indulge a little nostalgia > (Rob Ep, you’re my excuse as you always encourage the India Tales;-)) glad to serve that function! : ) > Hyderabad, June (?), 1975. I was on my way from Macleod Ganj, Dharmsala to > Sri Lanka to become a nun and live in a forest temple. The train journey > (3rd class) was around 100 hours and anyone who has travelled long > distance, 3rd class in India, yikes you should try the bus! squeezed into a seat with no knee room, knees up on the chest for nine hours with no bathroom stop, a family of three next to me, and goats in the back. Best, Robert Ep. 14248 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Hi Chris (& Frank), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > I don't really want to know what result follows which set of > causes. I don't want to know how to evade consequences of my > actions. But I want to be able to trust that what I have been taught > is true, and works in a just, rational, logical, consistent manner. > At this point, I do not feel that. You've been a good help though > Frank, making me think more clearly, thanks. I’ve also appreciated Frank’s posts and great reminders on the complexities of kamma: “the complexity of the full working of kamma is one of the “impnderables”.....", and also his honest post on ahimsa and his limits;-))) thanks, Frank..... ***** So how can we trust what we’ve been taught is true and so on? How can we trust anything the Buddha said about kamma for that matter? Certainly not by blind belief or just ‘following’ what we’ve been told. The only way, as I understand, is by knowing more about wholesome and unwholesome states and other phenomena, such as rupas and feelings at this moment. By knowing what is ‘good’ and what is ‘bad’, by seeing the difference between different intentions, by understanding the immediate efects of the former, compared with the latter, knowing these dhammas as anatta, there will be more and more confidence in the ‘rational, logical’ nature of the Teachings relating to past, present and future. For example, you can prove for yourself that when there is metta or kindness to all those ‘critters’ that you attract (possums, monkeys, pregnant rats, midnight mini-bar inspectors...;-)), you are not ‘harmed’ by them. When one gently wipes aside or ignores the mosquitos (after taking the precautions you mention), one really doesn’t seem so affected as when one starts reacting madly with dosa. Of course one may still get hurt -- and I was bitten by a dog in Bangkok earlier in the year -- but, when there is metta for the dog, the bodily painful feeling seems less than when there is dosa. In the same way, when one is angry and speaks harshly, not only do others have a hard time, but one feels many physical effects immediately and the dosa merely accumulates rather than serving any useful purpose. It also becomes more apparent that intentions cannot be judged by outer appearances. You give the examples of intellectually impaired adults or actions performed in different cultures. Even for ourselves, the same act might be performed with different intentions at different times and different intentions from moment to moment. Only panna can know what the (“our’) intention is. We can only guess for others or consider on a conventional or generalised level. I’d suggest really, rather than being concerned about future kammic results and rebirths, it is more helpful to understand present realities and the nature of inherently good and bad states at this moment. After all, no other moment can be known. This is the way that gradually we’ll understand (or rather panna understands) it’s always been like this and always will, from moment to moment, lifetime to lifetime, with ignorance as condition. Slowly the cause of suffering (i.e the attachment now to phenomena which don’t last more than an instant) becomes a little more apparent. If we think we’ll perform a good deed (good kamma) tomorrow but neglect the development of kusala at this moment, we lose precious opportunities, especially opportunities to understand namas and rupas as anatta. So it really doesn’t matter what label we use, whether it’s ‘Christian’ or ‘Buddhist’ or what our lifestyle is.or what we enjoy doing. The only question, as far as I see, is what is the paramattha dhamma (reality) at this moment which can be known? For this, we need to hear and consider a lot, over and over again, because our own experience and ignorance is very deceptive. As you said to Larry, what we hear needs to be filtered, examined, checked out and understood carefully, because we’re bound to hear many different philosophies and Teachings. It is not a matter of ‘self-help’ or ‘doing of anything’, but of sincerely understanding what life is at this moment. Chris, I’m trying (probably not very successfully, but with good intentions;-)) to approach an area of concern for you and many others. I’ll be glad if you add any comments or let me know if it’s all off-track. ***** To finish off on a different topic (the feeding squirrels and fish topic), I’d like to add a quote from N’s translation of KS’s ‘Perfections’ (under ‘dana’) which I thought added a little more to this theme (for someone, we can read squirrels, perhaps ;-): “If we really want to help someone, such as a person who is ill, we need to reflect with compassion on the way we will give him assistance. We should not just give without any discrimination, but we should also know to what extent our gift is suitable and useful to a sick person. We should know in detail what is kusala, and we should be discriminative, not neglectful of kusala. Just as a doctor should precisely know the condition of a person who is ill and the dosage of medicaments to be taken that is suitable for each individual, evenso should we give with discrimination. The Commentary states: Again, when asked, he gives to householders things appropriate for householders, and to monks things appropriate for monks. He gives to his mother and father, kinsmen and relatives, friends and colleagues, children, wife, slaves and workers, without causing pain to anyone. Having promised an excellent gift, he does not give something mean. He does not give because he desires gain, honour or fame, or because he expects something in return, or out of expectation of some fruit other than the supreme enlightenment (in the case of the Bodhisatta). He does not give detesting the gift or those who ask. He does not give a discarded object as a gift, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him.” ***** metta, Sarah ===== p.s Thanks for all your humorous 'critter' posts (let us know what happens to Mrs pregnant Rat) and Frank, best wishes with the 'evolving';-) C:“He/she comes in for an hour or two at night, eats any insects, and squeezes back under the door, and lives on the back verandah - so cockroaches are one ‘critter’ I don’t currently have.” My comment: cockroaches in Brisbane must be a lot smaller,weaker and more timid than the Hong Kong varieties;-) ................................................................................................................. 14249 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth Dear Suan, Thank you for your translation and comments which I found very helpful. >You could perform the "Syntax Walk- > through" on the translation. ..... I enjoy this form of 'walk-through' meditation';-) For ‘cakkhum’ in “the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight etc”, you mention this is “cakkhu, the eye of awakening.” I read this just before I read Nina’s latest translation from the Paramis which refers to the Cariyapitaka’s account of the Bodhisatta’s accumulation of the parami of giving. It mentions all the objects he gives and these include “lamps so he might obtain the five eyes.”. The footnote to the commentary (quoted by Nina) gives: “These five eyes are the fleshly eye, the divine eye by which he sees the passing away and rebirth of beings, the wisdom eye, by which he sees all dhammas with their characteristics and their conditions, the Buddha-eye, by which he sees the dispositions of beings and the maturity of their faculties, and the universal eye, his knowledge of omniscience.” I assume ‘cakkhum’ in the 4th Noble Truth refers to the third one, the ‘wisdom eye’, although this probably doesn’t apply as they are all referring to the Buddha’s ‘five eyes’.....;-) Thanks, Sarah ===== --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends > > How are you? > > The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes the > fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically > literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render it in > as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax Walk- > through" on the translation. > > I hope you find it useful. > > > "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, > bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, > ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko > udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa > ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… > udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa > ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu > tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa > udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. > > The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, > Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, > produced by Vipassana research Institute . > > > THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH > > Translated By Suan Lu Zaw > > Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light > occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is the > noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The eye, > the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on > the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble > truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be > followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and > the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as > for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of > misery has been accomplished. > > > GRAMMARTICAL NOTES > > Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of realities > This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" in > the modern context. > > Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of > occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard-of > realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis here > is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had occurred to > him, not on his ignorance of realities. > > Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening. > > Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The > Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the > subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight the > contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and the > action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... should be > followed through). > > Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the > observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble truth > as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths. > > Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the sound > effect. > > Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows. > > Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. Section > 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa. > > Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96 > Paathika Atthakathaa. > > > With regards, > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ 14250 From: onco111 Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:03pm Subject: Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Sarah, My goodness you are tough cookie, but I do appreciate both your understanding and your careful consideration. Let's get over these last few hurdles before I go back into hibernation (with a number of unacknowledged snips...let me know if my taking anything out of context distorts what you are saying). Sarah: I couldn't quite see why you raised these `imperfections of insight' from Vis XX. --> Dan: There are a number of reasons. Trying to address a number of issues at once leads to muddled posts -- no wonder it got confusing! Sorry about that. The why's? First, I noticed a lot of 'formal meditation' subject lines. The 'imperfections' are a wonderful issue to discuss in this context. Second, I think these fit in well with Robert's comments about the relationship between insight and calm (in particular the idea that insight -> calm) -- Buddhagosa says over and over such-and-such meditation phenomenon "due to insight." These two issues seemed closely enough related to throw in the mix together. Maybe it didn't come out so clear. No matter. I just keep plugging away at it. ________________________________ Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of phenomena such as illumination, rapture, tranquility, bliss, etc. Sarah: I've now looked at the section. These are very specific `imperfections' only pertaining to `the beginner of insight' or the one with tender insight (as I understand). For example, the illumination is `illumination due to insight' and so on. --> Dan: Right. Let me re-emphasize what I'm talking about here. These phenomena (illumination, etc.) commonly arise in the course of meditation, but they are called 'imperfections of insight' only when they arise DUE TO insight. I'm sure you'd agree that tranquillity, rapture, etc. can arise either from insight or some other cause. When they arise without insight, they are called simply tranquillity, rapture, etc. instead of 'imperfections of insight'. In addition, the manufactured calm that arises during sitting meditation will not even be kusala (i.e. won't really be 'tranquillity', 'rapture', 'illumination', etc.) if lobha is present, even though it may appear to be. ________________________________ Dan: These phenomena may arise for one without insight in the course of formal meditation by, say, directing the mind to a kasina or the touch of the breath on the upper lip. However, these phenomena can also arise "due to insight" in a "beginner of insight," according to Vism. [107...] Sarah: I don't understand that the very specific phenomena (i.e. the `imperfections' you raise) arise without the insight specified. --> Dan: There can arise the phenomena of illumination, rapture, tranquillity, bliss, etc. without insight. These are what I am referring to as 'these phenomena'. They can also arise 'due to' insight, in which case they are referred to as imperfections.' ________________________________ Dan: It may seem like a subtle distinction here -- whether the calm is induced by directing the mind onto a particular object or whether it is induced by insight -- but the distinction is clear. With the purposive directing of the mind onto an object, there is a repeated fixing of the attention on the object and the conscious suppression of the hindrances. Sarah: I'd rather just say that calm accompanies kusala cittas. The kusala cittas are moments of dana, sila or bhavana. For the 2 kinds of bhavana (samatha and vipassana) there must be understanding of the object. So I wouldn't use `induced by directing...' and I'm not sure I'd use `induced by insight', but possibly. I'd have to think more about that one. --> Dan: Yes, 'calm accompanies kusala cittas' is a fine thing to say. Also, "calm" as I have defined it earlier can surely be 'induced by directing'. Confusion between "manufactured calm" and the calm accompanying kusala cittas is a big danger. I think our difference here is one of pedagogy...Is it more helpful to think of the calmness 'induced by directing' as not really calmness, even though it sure seems like, especially when we have little experience with and awareness of the calmness that accompanies kusala? Or is it more helpful to say there are different kinds of calmness, and we need to know the differences between them? [No need to define 'calmness' as some subset of sobhana cetasikas...] I vote for the latter, so it's either going to be a unanimous 2-0 or a 1-1 draw. Actually, we should be open to both ways of thinking and talking about it, using whichever makes more sense in a given context. ___________________________________ Sarah: To give an analogy. For those who climb Mt Everest, base camp is the `beginner' level at which point the serious and dangerous climbing begins. On the otherhand, for most of us worldlings, even trekking up to base camp would be a high level of accomplishment. Beginner or advanced level? Is the glass half full or half empty? I don't think this is so much a question of conceit as of realism to be 'truthful' to the level of understanding now as Nina was referring to (sacca parami). --> Dan: The 'beginner of insight' is a beginner of insight. Of course, we need to stress that insight is distinctly different from purely intellectual understanding, different from thinking about kusala/akusala, different from fruits of concentration. Insight typically does not arise without tremendous prior support in this lifetime from intellectual understanding, thinking about kusala/akusala, fruits of concentration, I think. Is this what you mean by 'beginning insight' is 'high level wisdom'? I can see how it would make sense to talk about this way. Then, to understand what 'beginning insight' means, the focus would be on the distinction between 'wisdom' and 'insight'. Is that easier to understand that than to understand that distinction between insight and intellectual understanding + sila + fruits of concentraion is quite sharp? I lean toward the latter, but I will abstain this time in favor of "we should be open to both ways of thinking and talking about it," so I will probably lose 1-0 in the vote. __________________________________ Sarah: I'd probably go even further and question whether there really can be any `moments of genuine insight' if the distinction between concepts and realities isn't apparent (i.e if the object of panna isn't known). --> Dan: Right. Sarah: Yes, there will be calm accompanying conceptual rt understanding (if it's kusala), but this isn't insight. --> Dan: Well, it is not vipassana, but it is a kind of panya. Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', I've no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I understand. --> Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a flash of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence the description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really doing for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what it had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" Followed by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's what I mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.' _______________________ Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only with the supramundane path consciousness. Sarah: Finally eradicated yes, but gradually attenuated and removed at these stages and different aspects of doubt about 1)n&r 2)kamma & conditions 3) rise and fall of realities at these stages, to my understanding. "When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly knows and sees the sign. Hence `right seeing' is said. thus by inference from that all formations are clearly seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned....."X1X,26 --> Dan: Lots of things here to discuss... 1.'Doubt' vs. 'moha', and 'understanding concept' vs. 'understanding paramatta-dhamma' are interesting distinctions. (a) As with the sotapanna, who at times still has a moha sense of "I am" and a mana sense of "I am," no longer has any doubt that "I am" is rubbish and why it is so, so the beginner of insight still has a moha sense of "nama is rupa" but no has any doubt that "nama is rupa" is rubbish and just what that means. This moha that arises from moment to moment is not eradicated until arahantship. (b) The game of developing an intellectual understanding is distinctly different from developing experiential understanding at the paramattha level. One can memorize many long lists of various doctrinal terms and talk intelligently about each of them and about how they interact but have no bhavana- maya-panya (wisdom based on direct experience). Similarly, one can have direct knowledge of realities and a developed wisdom but still not understand the conceptual intricacies and subtleties involved in the long lists of terms. [Do we need a skit here about an arahant getting lost in all the Pali terminology?] 2. The paragraph that you cite sounds like stream-entry to me. Let's do a little more of the paragraph: "...all formations are clearly seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned. [...all formations are clearly seen as painful. Herein all doubt is abandoned. ] ...all states are clearly seen as not-self. Herein doubt is abandoned." Indeed, it is, as clearly expressed in the next two paragraphs: "'Correct knowledge and right seeing [as described in the previous paragraph] and covercoming of doubt -- these things are one in meaning and only the letter is different'(Ps.ii,62f). When a man practicing insight has become possessed of this knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddhas' dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, he is called a 'lesser stream-enterer.'" An explicit statement about the difference between the 'lesser stream-enterer' and the regular 'stream-enterer' is not given until the last paragraph of the next chapter: "The defining of the truth of suffering has been effected with the defining of mentality-materiality in the purification of view. The defining of the truth of origination has been effected with the discerning of conditions in the purification by overcoming doubt. The defining of the truth of the path has been effected with the emphasizing of the right path in this purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path. So the defining of three truths has been effected firstly by means of mundane knowledge only." [XX 130] ________________________________________ A few final nitpicks... Dan: ... By "calm", I presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. Sarah: Primarily calm refers to passaddhi cetasika as you suggested earlier. Like you suggest, though, all the 6 pairs accompany all all sobhana (beautiful) cittas... --> Dan: Correction. When YOU use "calm", you are primarily referring to passaddhi cetasika. There is no intrisic, necessary association between 'calm' and 'passaddhi'. ............. Sarah: There are bound to be misunderstandings here, I'm sure. --> Dan: Isn't the primary purposes of your discussion group to bring to light misunderstandings, and to rectify those that warrant rectifying and pass over those that don't? ............. Sarah: ...I think you're doing a great service by pointing out these pitfalls (I hope you write a book one day ;-)). Dan and for the record, I have much respect for the courage shown by you in facing up to the truth... -->Dan: I'm glad that you find my words helpful. Thanks, Sarah. Now, it's my turn to choke on the lemonade! But I'm puzzled too. I really can't take credit for showing any courage, but I don't think jumping into a round of speculation about Dan's cittas and cetasikas would be helpful in the slightest bit. Can we just pass over this one? Dan P.S. No book! Like you say, "It must be harder still, perhaps for those who are revered and highly regarded [to face the truth]." I look at a book as a way to establish entrenched views in myself. It becomes so much harder to develop wisdom when there is the need to defend one's published views. Let's wait until I have something less speculative to say (and until I'm free of the obligation to bring home the bacon). 14251 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth Dear Sarah Thank you for mentioning "The Five Eyes" from Nina's post. In my translation of the fourth noble truth, though, I merely regarded the eye as a synonym of the right view or the right seeing. In fact, I regarded all the five terms beginning with the eye as synonyms of awakening because the Buddha was describing how he discovered the four noble truths. With regards, Suan --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Suan, > > Thank you for your translation and comments which I found very helpful. > > >You could perform the "Syntax Walk- > > through" on the translation. > ..... > I enjoy this form of 'walk-through' meditation';-) > > For `cakkhum' in "the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight etc", > you mention this is "cakkhu, the eye of awakening." > > I read this just before I read Nina's latest translation from the Paramis > which refers to the Cariyapitaka's account of the Bodhisatta's > accumulation of the parami of giving. It mentions all the objects he gives > and these include "lamps so he might obtain the five eyes.". > > The footnote to the commentary (quoted by Nina) gives: > > "These five eyes are the fleshly eye, the divine eye by which he sees the > passing away and rebirth of beings, the wisdom eye, by which he sees all > dhammas with their characteristics and their conditions, the Buddha- eye, > by > which he sees the dispositions of beings and the maturity of their > faculties, and the universal eye, his knowledge of omniscience." > > I assume `cakkhum' in the 4th Noble Truth refers to the third one, the > `wisdom eye', although this probably doesn't apply as they are all > referring to the Buddha's `five eyes'.....;-) > > Thanks, > Sarah > ===== > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends > > > > How are you? > > > > The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes the > > fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically > > literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render it in > > as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax Walk- > > through" on the translation. > > > > I hope you find it useful. > > > > > > "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, > > bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, > > ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko > > udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa > > ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… > > udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa > > ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu > > tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa > > udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. > > > > The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, > > Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, > > produced by Vipassana research Institute . > > > > > > THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH > > > > Translated By Suan Lu Zaw > > > > Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light > > occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is the > > noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The eye, > > the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on > > the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble > > truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be > > followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and > > the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as > > for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of > > misery has been accomplished. > > > > > > GRAMMARTICAL NOTES > > > > Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of realities > > This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" in > > the modern context. > > > > Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of > > occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard-of > > realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis here > > is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had occurred to > > him, not on his ignorance of realities. > > > > Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening. > > > > Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The > > Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the > > subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight the > > contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and the > > action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... should be > > followed through). > > > > Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the > > observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble truth > > as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths. > > > > Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the sound > > effect. > > > > Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows. > > > > Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. Section > > 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa. > > > > Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96 > > Paathika Atthakathaa. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > Suan > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ 14252 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no. 8 Perfections Ch 2, no 8. The Commentary explains further about the ways of offering the gift of sound: ... by giving medicine for the voice, such as oil and molasses, to preachers of the Dhamma; or by announcing a lecture on the Dhamma, chanting the scriptures, giving a discourse on the Dhamma, holding a discussion, or expressing appreciation for the good deeds of others. One may invite people to sit close for a Dhamma discussion or ask others to invite them for this purpose. Also when expressing words of appreciation, anumodana, one can give sound as an offering. When one speaks these words aloud or invites others to join in the expressing of them, one offers the gift of sound. This is a condition for others to also take part in the offering of sound by way of the expression of anumodana. We read in the Commentary: Giving thus, the Great Man does not give unwillingly, nor by afflicting others, nor out of fear, moral shame, or the scolding of those in need of gifts. When there is something excellent, he does not give what is mean. He does not give extolling himself and disparaging others. He does not give out of desire for the fruit, nor with loathing for those who ask, nor with lack of consideration. Rather, he gives thoroughly, with his own hand, at the proper time, considerately, without discrimination, filled with joy throughout the three times (before, during and after giving). Having given, he does not become remorseful afterwards. He does not become either conceited or obsequious in relation to the recipients, but behaves amiably towards them. Bountiful and liberal, he gives things together with a bonus (saparivåra). For when he gives food, thinking: ²I will give this along with a bonus², he gives garments, etc. as well. And when he gives garments, thinking: ³I will give this along with a bonus,² he gives food, etc. as well... His generosity is boundless, and he gives something else as a bonus to accompany his gift. In our daily life we all should investigate and examine the realities that arise within us as they really are. Although we have listened to the texts about the Bodhisatta¹s giving, the way we give depends on conditions and we cannot equal the Bodhisatta in generosity. Further on in the Commentary we read what the Bodhisatta is thinking when he has an object that can be given but his citta is not inclined to give: When the Bodhisatta possesses objects that can be given and suppliants are present, but his mind does not leap up at the thought of giving and he does not want to give, he should conclude: ²Surely, I have not been accustomed to giving in the past, therefore, a desire to give does not arise now in my mind. So that my mind will delight in giving in the future, I will give a gift. With an eye for the future let me now relinquish what I have to those in need. Thus, we see that giving cannot be forced. A person who has accumulated the inclination to give often, time and again, is able to give immediately, without hesitation, without having to think about it again and again. Therefore, when someone¹s mind does not leap up at the thought of giving immediately, or when he hesitates, it can be known that he surely did not accumulate giving in the past. 14253 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 7:06am Subject: ADL ch. 15 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 15 (3) If one is not wise, one grieves, but for those who cultivate the Eightfold Path, there will be less sorrow. For him who has attained the stage of the arahat, there will be cuti-citta, but it will not be succeeded by patisandhi-citta. Then there is an end to birth, old age, sickness and death. We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Threes, Ch. VII, par. 62, Terror, V and VI): Monks, these three terrors part mother and son. What three? A mother cannot bear to see her son grow old. She says, 'I am growing old. Let not my son grow old.' The son likewise cannot bear to see his mother grow old. He says, 'I am growing old. Let not my mother grow old.' And it is the same with regard to getting sick and dying. These are the three terrors that part mother and son. But, monks, there is a way, there is a practice that leads to the abandoning, to the overpassing of these three terrors that part mother and son, a way which joins mother and son. What is that way, what is that practice which so leads?. It is just this Eightfold Way, to wit: Right view,..... right concentration, That is the way, that is the practice... .. If one is not an arahat yet, there will be a patisandhi-citta succeeding the cuti-citta, Before the cuti-citta arises, there are only five javana-citta instead of seven and these are the last javana-cittas of that lifespan. If kusala kamma will produce the patisandhi-citta of the next life these last javana-cittas are kusala cittas and if akusala kamma will produce the patisandhi-citta of the next life they are akusala cittas. These javana-cittas can experience a pleasant or unpleasant object through one of the sense-doors or through the mind-door and this object is conditioned by the kamma which will produce the patisandhi-citta (See ch.10) . One may remember previous kamma, or one may experience a sign or symbol of it, or else one may experience a sign or symbol of the place of one's rebirth. These javana-cittas may or may not be followed by tadarammana-cittas. The cuti-citta has only the function of being the dying-moment of that life. The cuti-citta is vipakacitta produced by the kamma which produced the patisandhi-citta and the bhavanga-cittas of the life which is just ending; it is of the same type as these cittas and it experiences the same object. When the cuti-citta has fallen away the patisandhi-citta of the following life arises, which citta may be of a different type, depending on the kamma which produces it. This patisandhi-citta experiences the same object as the last javana-cittas arising before the cuti-citta of the previous life. The patisandhi-citta, all bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta of the next life experience that object. The same types of citta which can perform the functions of patisandhi and bhavanga, can perform the function of cuti. Since there are nineteen types of citta which can perform the function of patisandhi (See ch.ll) and the function of bhavanga, there are nineteen types of citta which can perform the function of cuti. If someone suffers great pains before he dies because of an accident or sickness, the last javana-cittas arising before the cuti-citta will not necessarily be akusala cittas. There may be akusala cittas with aversion when he feels the pain, but the last javana-cittas may be kusala cittas. There may be 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) preceding the cuti-citta. 14254 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) wow, boy did I like that sutta. robert ======= --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Victor (and all) - > > In a message dated 7/2/02 9:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Victor writes: > > > > > > Hi Rob, Jon, and all, > > > > > > > > Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement! Here is the > > focus for > > > our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above: > > > > > > A. Specific areas of interest: > > > 1/ the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you might be interested in the discourse > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-044.html > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well *I* certainly find it interesting!! ;-)) [Also, the Anupada (sp?) > Sutta describing the approach to complete enlightenment followed by > Sariputta, Captain of the Dhamma, is interesting reading, as is, for example, > the standard description of the Buddha's own attainment of complete > enlightenment via the first 4 jhanas.] > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2/ the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas > > > themselves. > > > > > > B. Associated aspects: > > > 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of > > consciousness/Right > > > Concentration are in the progression of the path, > > > 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of > > > meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. > > > 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to > > > enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an > > intellectual > > > way) > > > > > > > > Regards, > > Victor 14255 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Jon, I have finally worked my way backwards to this post. The problem is, in going backwards, there are always new posts to get through. It's like trying to get through the powerful waves at the shoreline to try to get out to the big waves at sea. There are always more waves coming in. Anyway, enough analogy. I find your 'battle plan' for the jhanas very congenial, and I like your goal in looking at samatha and the jhanas as well as my own. I think between us we have a pretty good interest in looking at the subject, and I'll look forward to anything you find. I'll also be on the lookout myself. Best, Robert Ep. ======== --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > … > > Jon, > > … Well I am interested in any description or commentary in the > > Vissudhimagga > > which talks about the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, > > but also > > the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas > > themselves. > > Anything in those areas would be of great interest to me. I'm not sure > > why I > > hooked onto the subject of the jhanas when I heard about them sort of > > belatedly > > last year. I hadn't noticed them before, so it must be a kammic > > occurrence for me > > to look into something about them. They are so prominent in many > > Theravadan > > writings and practices and seem to me at least to outline the pathway of > > states > > that lead to enlightenment in a concretely available way, rather than an > > intellectual way. Of course whatever we read about will be intellectual > > in a > > sense, but I think the subject may 1/ make clear what some of the states > > of > > consciousness/Right Concentration are in the progression of the path, > > and 2/ > > perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of > > meditation vs. the > > role of understanding discernment through sutta. > > Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement! Here is the focus for > our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above: > > A. Specific areas of interest: > 1/ the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, > 2/ the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas > themselves. > > B. Associated aspects: > 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of consciousness/Right > Concentration are in the progression of the path, > 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of > meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. > 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to > enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an intellectual > way) > > If this sounds OK, I'll start looking out for passages. But don't hold > your breath, this will be very much an 'as and when it happens' thing -- I > hope that's OK with you. > > Of course, anyone else is welcome to join in with passages, questions or > comments. > > > I am curious as to why it > > interests you as well. If you were to say a word about your interest in > > the jhanas, it might also help me clarify my interest a bit more. > > My interest is in samatha as a form of kusala that was highly praised by > the Buddha. Although I have no aspiration to the jhanic states (in this > lifetime, at least), I do not see that as precluding (or excusing) a > better understanding of the development of samatha. > > I find there is very little in the suttas on what is actually meant by the > development of samatha (samatha bhavana). I would like to know more. I > suspect that the generally held idea on this (i.e., go to a quiet place > and focus on a chosen meditation subject) seriously misses the mark. > > How does that sound? (Our mission statements may differ, but I think we > have sufficient common ground ;-)). > > > Anyway, like a dog > > who hears a bird, this subject just makes my ears perk up, so anything > > you might > > find would be of great interest to me. > > > > Thanks, > > Robert Ep. > > I'm looking forward to it myself! > > Jon 14256 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > Jon, > I have finally worked my way backwards to this post. The problem is, in > going > backwards, there are always new posts to get through. It's like trying > to get > through the powerful waves at the shoreline to try to get out to the big > waves at > sea. There are always more waves coming in. Anyway, enough analogy. A good analogy, Rob. I find it perfectly describes the difficulty I'm having in getting anything posted on this thread. There are always plenty of other interesting (not to mention challenging) posts to respond to! > I find your 'battle plan' for the jhanas very congenial, and I like your > goal in > looking at samatha and the jhanas as well as my own. I think between us > we have a > pretty good interest in looking at the subject, and I'll look forward to > anything > you find. > > I'll also be on the lookout myself. Yes, I think we'll make a good team (between us covering the 2 extremes of view!!) Jon 14257 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:21pm Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi Howard (& Christine), I’m just back from having tea with Christine’s very fine (grown) kids who are on holiday in Hong Kong and Beijing and were keen to give the ‘NormalityTest for Parental Internet Friends’. Actually, thanks to their gentle questions, I think we managed to scrape through, because at the end of the Test, they both announced they’d be joining us for the Noosa DSG get together later this month;-)). (Now, if it had been Dan’s or Sukin’s sons or Rob Ep’s daughter, we might have been given far tougher qus like: “Where is Mr Dosa?”, “When you’re sick, do you eat congee for every meal?”, or “Where’s your baseball?”) Enough frivolity. Back to rupas and thankyou for these helpful points for consideration: --- Howard wrote: > Okay, this gets precise: solidity, temperature, and pressure - > that is > bodily rupa. This then presumably leaves physical pain as vedana > (normally, > but not always, felt as unpleasant). ..... By definition, if it’s ‘physical pain’ it will always be unpleasant bodily feeling, conditioned by the rupas. Sometimes, like when a mosquito lands on an arm(this is for Frank;-)), we assume there is painful feeling because of the ‘story’, but it may not be so. ..... >But where does this leave such > things as > itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of "numbness", queasy > pit-of-the-stomach feelings/"butterflies in the stomach", the odd > feelings on > knees/shoulders associated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst, > etc, > etc. The question is whether these are varieties, perhaps in > combination, of > solidity, temperature, and pressure, and whether even pains, themselves, > are > varieties of these? ..... What we take for the above are the rupas that appear throught the bodysense and the unpleasant feeling which experiences them. (Even though these are the only rupas experienced through the bodysense, of course all rupas arise together in a ‘kalapa’ of at least 8 rupas together, but I don’t want to get too technical here). Those that haven’t heard the dhamma (or phenomenalism??), are sure that they can feel a computer or piece of glass. We are now sure this isn’t correct, but we may be sure we can experience apo dhatu (water or cohesion) through the bodysense, especially as we know it’s a reality. We can in fact prove that when we think there is the experience of water touched, in fact it’s only temperature, softness and motion, even though apo dhatu has to arise together with and ‘bind’ all other rupas. I mention these examples just to show how unreliable experience can be. In your examples above, I think that the element of wind (vayo dhatu) is particularly prominent. When there is the bodily experience of vibration, oscillation, motion or pressure experienced, it is vayo dhatu. From the Mahhatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28, Elephant’s footprint, BB trans.) yet again: “What, friends, is the air element? The air element may be either internal or external. What is the internal air element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is air, airy, and clung-to; that is, up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the belly, winds in the bowels, winds that course through the limbs, in-breath and out-breath, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is air, airy, and clkung-to; this is called the air element....” ***** The air element acts as distension of the other three Great Elements (i.e.earth, fire and water elements) and each of these Great Elements has the other three as proximate cause, conditioning each other (Vis X1, 109). As there is so vey little awareness of elements and these rupas, we are continually deceived by them as we’ve been discussing. In Vis X1, 100 we read: “..these elements (referring to the 4 Great Elements) conceal each their own characteristics and function classed as hardness, etc, by means of a pleasing skin colour of women’s and men’s bodies, etc, and pleasing shapes of limbs and pleasing gestures of fingers, toes nd eyebrows, and they deceive simple people by concealing their own functions and characteristics beginning with hardness and do not allow their individual essences to be seen....” ***** >That seems quite doubtful. It seems more likely that > these are a different category things, namely automatic responses to > variously sensed rupas (through various ayatana) rather than varieties > of > bodily rupas themselves. That is, these are vedana. ..... Remember, all these vedana do are to feel or ‘taste’ the rupas experienced through the body sense. These vedana are only pleasant or unpleasant, never neutral. Also, remember there are many other rupas involved in the kalapa (smallest unit).. For example, whenever citta causes any part of the body to move there must be lahuta rupa (buoyancy), muduta rupa (plasticity) and kammannata rupa (wieldiness) produced by temperature and nutrition, otherwise the body wouldn’t move, such as when a limb is paraylsed. Again, I think it’s easy to be deceived by the effects. ...... > If none of these things are (combinations of) varieties of > solidity, > temperature, and pressure, but, rather, are automatic bodily/mental > responses > to phassa (in biological terms, perhaps a kind of thrashing about of the > > nervous system), then they are all vedana, not rupa, and the Goenka > interpretation is correct, with pleasantness, unpleasantness, and > neutrality > being (conditioned) *characteristics* of vedana, but not the vedana > themselves. [So, for example, contact with certain rupas produces the > vedana > of tingling on ones cheek, a tingling that is, say, neutral in feel. > There > would then be three things involved, the original contact, the resulting > > vedana of tingling, and, not really separate from the tingling, its > characteristic of "neutral feel".] > At this point, I still see two alternative views, with the case > not > having been fully made for either. > One last point: As far as one's "salvation" is concerned, to use > a > very non-Buddhist term, this whole issue is not of great importance. (It > is > only of interest in having a clear understanding of terminology.) ..... On the otherhand, I think it is important to ‘separate’ (by direct understanding, not just by thinking or ‘focussing’) the distinction between the unpleasant or painful feeling and the rupas experienced as between any other namas and rupas. ..... >What > *is* > important is in realizing that all these experienced phenomena, whatever > we > call them, are impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and impersonal - > > neither me nor mine. And directly seeing them through vipassana bhavana > as > they arise and cease enables the direct understanding of their true > nature, > the wisdom that frees us from clinging to them. ..... I agree with this helpful summary. However, as I’ve been discussing with Dan, before there can be any understanding of the rising and falling away of these phenomena through vipassana bhavana, they have to be clearly understood and known first.The 4 characteristics of rupas (arising (upacaya), continuation (santati), decay (jarata) and falling away (aniccata) can only be known after the distinct sabhava or lakhana or the rupas is apparent as I understand. I may have got a little lost in some of your comments towards the end, but I know you’ll let me know if they are not addressed. Sarah ====== 14258 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi Rob Ep, Always glad to see you around..looking f/w to when you and Jon actually brave those waves;-) --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > > .. 3rd class in India, > > yikes you should try the bus! squeezed into a seat with no knee room, > knees up on > the chest for nine hours with no bathroom stop, a family of three next > to me, and > goats in the back. ..... ;-))) being small in Asia has its advantages.... still lots of opportunities for 'formal meditation' (as in our heading) with no end to the "itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of "numbness", queasy pit-of-the-stomach feelings/"butterflies in the stomach", the odd feelings on knees/shoulders axxxociated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst, etc, etc" .;-) What fun we had when we were young......;-) Sarah ====== 14259 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Hi Sarah, I appreciated this post, very clear and satisfying to read, and allayed a number of concerns (though I have to protest at being accused of attracting 'critters' this smacks of victim blaming...:) Thanks for letting me know my offspring are alive and well - I'll resist asking any other 'mother' type questions. SarahF did tell me they had visited a very large Buddha statue on an island, and Luke said he had been hiking the walking trails around Hong Kong, got lost, and had found the Temple of the Ten thousand Buddhas on the top of a hill. Glad to hear you passed the test - what would we have done if you hadn't come up to scratch....? :) At the end of your post I get the distinct impression you have the same feeling about my cockroach-eating gecko as I do about your gulping snake...... So, a gift for you ... http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_hoppers/Cockroaches.htm metta, Chris --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Chris (& Frank), > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > I don't really want to know what result follows which set of > > causes. I don't want to know how to evade consequences of my > > actions. But I want to be able to trust that what I have been taught > > is true, and works in a just, rational, logical, consistent manner. > > At this point, I do not feel that. You've been a good help though > > Frank, making me think more clearly, thanks. > > I've also appreciated Frank's posts and great reminders on the > complexities of kamma: > "the complexity of the full working of kamma is one of the > "impnderables".....", and also his honest post on ahimsa and his > limits;-))) thanks, Frank..... > ***** > So how can we trust what we've been taught is true and so on? How can we > trust anything the Buddha said about kamma for that matter? Certainly not > by blind belief or just `following' what we've been told. The only way, > as I understand, is by knowing more about wholesome and unwholesome states > and other phenomena, such as rupas and feelings at this moment. By knowing > what is `good' and what is `bad', by seeing the difference between > different intentions, by understanding the immediate efects of the former, > compared with the latter, knowing these dhammas as anatta, there will be > more and more confidence in the `rational, logical' nature of the > Teachings relating to past, present and future. > > For example, you can prove for yourself that when there is metta or > kindness to all those `critters' that you attract (possums, monkeys, > pregnant rats, midnight mini-bar inspectors...;-)), you are not `harmed' > by them. When one gently wipes aside or ignores the mosquitos (after > taking the precautions you mention), one really doesn't seem so affected > as when one starts reacting madly with dosa. Of course one may still get > hurt -- and I was bitten by a dog in Bangkok earlier in the year -- but, > when there is metta for the dog, the bodily painful feeling seems less > than when there is dosa. > > In the same way, when one is angry and speaks harshly, not only do others > have a hard time, but one feels many physical effects immediately and the > dosa merely accumulates rather than serving any useful purpose. > > It also becomes more apparent that intentions cannot be judged by outer > appearances. You give the examples of intellectually impaired adults or > actions performed in different cultures. Even for ourselves, the same act > might be performed with different intentions at different times and > different intentions from moment to moment. Only panna can know what the > ("our') intention is. We can only guess for others or consider on a > conventional or generalised level. > > I'd suggest really, rather than being concerned about future kammic > results and rebirths, it is more helpful to understand present realities > and the nature of inherently good and bad states at this moment. After > all, no other moment can be known. This is the way that gradually we'll > understand (or rather panna understands) it's always been like this and > always will, from moment to moment, lifetime to lifetime, with ignorance > as condition. Slowly the cause of suffering (i.e the attachment now to > phenomena which don't last more than an instant) becomes a little more > apparent. If we think we'll perform a good deed (good kamma) tomorrow but > neglect the development of kusala at this moment, we lose precious > opportunities, especially opportunities to understand namas and rupas as > anatta. > > So it really doesn't matter what label we use, whether it's `Christian' or > `Buddhist' or what our lifestyle is.or what we enjoy doing. The only > question, as far as I see, is what is the paramattha dhamma (reality) at > this moment which can be known? For this, we need to hear and consider a > lot, over and over again, because our own experience and ignorance is > very deceptive. As you said to Larry, what we hear needs to be filtered, > examined, checked out and understood carefully, because we're bound to > hear many different philosophies and Teachings. It is not a matter of > `self-help' or `doing of anything', but of sincerely understanding what > life is at this moment. > > Chris, I'm trying (probably not very successfully, but with good > intentions;-)) to approach an area of concern for you and many others. > I'll be glad if you add any comments or let me know if it's all off- track. > > ***** > To finish off on a different topic (the feeding squirrels and fish topic), > I'd like to add a quote from N's translation of KS's `Perfections' (under > `dana') which I thought added a little more to this theme (for someone, we > can read squirrels, perhaps ;-): > > "If we really want to help someone, such as a person who is ill, we need > to > reflect with compassion on the way we will give him assistance. We should > not just give without any discrimination, but we should also know to what > extent our gift is suitable and useful to a sick person. We should know in > detail what is kusala, and we should be discriminative, not neglectful of > kusala. Just as a doctor should precisely know the condition of a person > who > is ill and the dosage of medicaments to be taken that is suitable for each > individual, evenso should we give with discrimination. > The Commentary states: > > Again, when asked, he gives to householders things appropriate for > householders, and to monks things appropriate for monks. He gives to his > mother and father, kinsmen and relatives, friends and colleagues, > children, > wife, slaves and workers, without causing pain to anyone. Having promised > an > excellent gift, he does not give something mean. He does not give because > he > desires gain, honour or fame, or because he expects something in return, > or > out of expectation of some fruit other than the supreme enlightenment (in > the case of the Bodhisatta). He does not give detesting the gift or those > who ask. He does not give a discarded object as a gift, not even to > unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him." > ***** > metta, > Sarah > ===== > p.s Thanks for all your humorous 'critter' posts (let us know what > happens to Mrs pregnant Rat) and Frank, best wishes with the 'evolving';-) > > C:"He/she comes in for an hour or two at night, eats any > insects, and squeezes back under the door, and lives on the back verandah > - so cockroaches are one `critter' I don't currently have." > > My comment: cockroaches in Brisbane must be a lot smaller,weaker and more > timid than the Hong Kong varieties;-) > .................................................................... ............................................. > 14260 From: Ruth Klein Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:57pm Subject: FW: [dsg] introduction > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:<>] > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 4:03 AM > To: Ruth > Subject: RE: [dsg] introduction > > > Dear Ruth, > > --- Ruth Klein wrote: > > > Thank your for your kind reply and warm welcome. > ..... > Thank you for adding more info below: > ..... > > Since I haven't done much study, it IS like diving in here. Though I > > have > > read many commentaries and listened to many Dhamma talks, I have not > > read > > the cource material yet. I have just taken a translation of the > > Majjhima > > Nikaya out of the library. My intention is to read 1 sutta every > > evening > > for the next 150 days! At least that will familiarize me with things, > > before going through an depth analysis of anything. > ..... > This sounds like an excellent project. Is it the PTS translation of MN > that you’ve borrowed? In any case, please share any of your reading, > considerations, comments or questions with us in any way you like. Most of > us have copies of one translation or other and we’ll be glad to hear how > you find the suttas and what carries special meaning for you. > .... > > > > I am not in CA... although I came pretty close to accepting a graduate > > assistantship at San Diego State Univ. (The quartet got a better offer > > from > > the University of Oklahoma....) There in Norman I found a small, but > > strong, non-sectarian meditation group. For the summer, however, I am > > working in small town Ohio. The closest meditation group is 1.5 hours > > away, > > and my schedule is so quirky that I don't get to sit with them on a > > regular > > basis. I'm really going through a depression right, feeling very > > separated, > > different and alone now, and feel the need for some external support. > ..... > I’m sorry to hear you’re having a difficult time and I hope we can offter > ‘some external support’. I know many others on DSG will understand these > thoughts and feelings and I hope this discussion group can fill a ‘gap’. > ..... > > My > > parents haven't been helping - with their well-intended but unwelcome > > comments about finding a real job, a husband, and making grandchildren. > ..... > It’s good you can appreciate their kind intentions....Parents want their > kids to be happy and these are the ways conventionally considered to lead > to happiness;-) A good sense of humour helps too, I think. > ..... > > > > When this festival ends in Aug I will be flying out to CA to spend a > > week at > > Wat Metta. I have never been at a Buddhist monestary before - actually, > > I > > have never even met a monk or nun or even had a real spiritual teacher > > yet. > > However, I have a friend who studies with Ajaan Geoff (and who intends > > to > > ordain at the monestary soon). I have been inspired by some of the > > Ajaan's > > writings and talks, so I figured I'd give it a try. It's time. I > > cannot > > live through this confusion and fog. I think I've put myself on the > > right > > path, but often I have to stumble through. If someone else had a torch > > I > > might be able to see where to make the next step. > > > > Well, my alarm just went off... 15 minutes to get dressed and run over > > for > > the matinee... > ..... > Thanks for sharing, Ruth. We’ll be glad to hear how you get on. In the > meantime, if we can help with the ‘confusion and fog’ at all, pls let us > know. So often what we think of in this way is just thinking with > aversion, which doesn’t necessarily make it any easier;-) > > Sarah > ====== > > 14261 From: Ruth Klein Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 7:05pm Subject: RE: [dsg] introduction [stuff deleted] > > > Since I haven't done much study, it IS like diving in here. Though I > > > have > > > read many commentaries and listened to many Dhamma talks, I have not > > > read > > > the cource material yet. I have just taken a translation of the > > > Majjhima > > > Nikaya out of the library. My intention is to read 1 sutta every > > > evening > > > for the next 150 days! At least that will familiarize me with things, > > > before going through an depth analysis of anything. > > ..... > > This sounds like an excellent project. Is it the PTS translation of MN > > that you’ve borrowed? In any case, please share any of your reading, > > considerations, comments or questions with us in any way you > like. Most of > > us have copies of one translation or other and we’ll be glad to hear how > > you find the suttas and what carries special meaning for you. > > .... No, I have the Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bohdi translation. I've supplemented it with the translations from Access to Insight (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index.html) which are mostly Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations. The later are easier (lighter) to carry around! Ruth 14262 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:05pm Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sarah - Okay, thanks. What I mainly get from the following are three things: 1) The "itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of 'numbness', queasy pit-of-the-stomach feelings/'butterflies in the stomach', the odd feelings on knees/shoulders associated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst, etc, etc." are all rupas - variants of "earth, air, fire, and water", of solidity, of motion/energy, of varieties and degrees of warmth, and of fluidity/cohesion. 2) Vedana is the tasting of rupas (and namas) as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, and 3) Instances of physical pain are always instances of unpleasant vedana. I had first written the following in reply to this: ********************************************************* I'm quite satisfied with this except for item 3. It just does not make personal sense to me. I can readily distinguish between four things: a) The sharp, strong pressure on my arm of an injection, b) the resulting pain, c) the unpleasant feel of that pain, and d) the reaction of aversion. Taking the view that physical sensation is rupa and the affective tase of is is vedana, I see this as follows: a) is rupa, b) is rupa!!, c) is vedana, and d) is sankhara. The pain is felt as unpleasant, but it is not that unpleasantness. It is just the same as an itch being felt as unpleasant, but not itself being that unpleasantness. To me, physical pains fall into exactly the same category as itches, tinglings, etc. Either they are all rupa or they are all vedana, but they are inthe same class. The other respect with which I differ on item 3 is with regard to physical pain being consistently unpleasant. This is just not so. There are varieties and degrees of pain, and how they are felt (tasted) differes from person to person. The extreme of this, of course, occurs in the case of masochists who typically find pain as pleasant. But even for "normal" people, pains of certain sorts and of certain intensities (or lack thereof) are felt as pleasant, this differing from person to person. I agree that *usually* pain is unpleasant. I disagree that it is *always* so. ************************************************* But I have just re-read and re-thought the matter, and I find myself disagreeing with what I, myself, just wrote!! ;-)) So let me do an instant self-criticism and correction: 1) With regard to my distinguishing a) The sharp, strong pressure on my arm of an injection, b) the resulting pain, c) the unpleasant feel of that pain, and d) the reaction of aversion, I believe I was in error here. In fact, (b) = (c).The sharp, strong pressure of the injection, item (a), is indeed, rupa. It may be felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Feeling it as unpleasant, (c), is exactly what (b) is, namely physical pain (i.e., rupa-induced unpleasantness). The juxtaposition of the sharp strong pressure (rupa) with the ensuing unpleasant feel (vedana) gets mixed in the mind , and there *seems* to be an intermediate and separate rupa of "physical pain", but that is an error. Secondly, what I took to be some people finding some pains as pleasant, others as unpleasant, and still others as neutral is not that at all. What is really the case is that some *rupas* (strong or light pressures, tinglings, itches etc) are felt as neutral, pleasant, or unpleasant by various people under various circumstances. Feeling a rupa as unpleasant is the experience of pain. That can be the *definition* of physical pain. It still remains true, however, that pain need not be met with aversion. It may be met with equanimity. The sharp, strong pressure of an injection may well be painful (i.e., felt as unpleasant), but we may or may not *mind* that pain. When we mind it, that is the sankhara of aversion. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/11/02 5:22:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hi Howard (& Christine), > > I’m just back from having tea with Christine’s very fine (grown) kids who > are on holiday in Hong Kong and Beijing and were keen to give the > ‘NormalityTest for Parental Internet Friends’. Actually, thanks to their > gentle questions, I think we managed to scrape through, because at the end > of the Test, they both announced they’d be joining us for the Noosa DSG > get together later this month;-)). (Now, if it had been Dan’s or Sukin’s > sons or Rob Ep’s daughter, we might have been given far tougher qus like: > “Where is Mr Dosa?â€, “When you’re sick, do you eat congee for every > meal?â€, or “Where’s your baseball?â€) > > Enough frivolity. Back to rupas and thankyou for these helpful points for > consideration: > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Okay, this gets precise: solidity, temperature, and pressure - > > that is > > bodily rupa. This then presumably leaves physical pain as vedana > > (normally, > > but not always, felt as unpleasant). > ..... > By definition, if it’s ‘physical pain’ it will always be unpleasant bodily > feeling, conditioned by the rupas. Sometimes, like when a mosquito lands > on an arm(this is for Frank;-)), we assume there is painful feeling > because of the ‘story’, but it may not be so. > ..... > >But where does this leave such > > things as > > itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of "numbness", queasy > > pit-of-the-stomach feelings/"butterflies in the stomach", the odd > > feelings on > > knees/shoulders associated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst, > > etc, > > etc. The question is whether these are varieties, perhaps in > > combination, of > > solidity, temperature, and pressure, and whether even pains, themselves, > > are > > varieties of these? > ..... > What we take for the above are the rupas that appear throught the > bodysense and the unpleasant feeling which experiences them. (Even though > these are the only rupas experienced through the bodysense, of course all > rupas arise together in a ‘kalapa’ of at least 8 rupas together, but I > don’t want to get too technical here). > > Those that haven’t heard the dhamma (or phenomenalism??), are sure that > they can feel a computer or piece of glass. We are now sure this isn’t > correct, but we may be sure we can experience apo dhatu (water or > cohesion) through the bodysense, especially as we know it’s a reality. We > can in fact prove that when we think there is the experience of water > touched, in fact it’s only temperature, softness and motion, even though > apo dhatu has to arise together with and ‘bind’ all other rupas. I mention > these examples just to show how unreliable experience can be. > > In your examples above, I think that the element of wind (vayo dhatu) is > particularly prominent. When there is the bodily experience of vibration, > oscillation, motion or pressure experienced, it is vayo dhatu. > > From the Mahhatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28, Elephant’s footprint, BB trans.) > yet again: > > “What, friends, is the air element? The air element may be either > internal or external. What is the internal air element? Whatever > internally, belonging to oneself, is air, airy, and clung-to; that is, > up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the belly, winds in the bowels, > winds that course through the limbs, in-breath and out-breath, or whatever > else internally, belonging to oneself, is air, airy, and clkung-to; this > is called the air element....†> ***** > The air element acts as distension of the other three Great Elements > (i.e.earth, fire and water elements) and each of these Great Elements has > the other three as proximate cause, conditioning each other (Vis X1, 109). > As there is so vey little awareness of elements and these rupas, we are > continually deceived by them as we’ve been discussing. In Vis X1, 100 we > read: > > “..these elements (referring to the 4 Great Elements) conceal each their > own characteristics and function classed as hardness, etc, by means of a > pleasing skin colour of women’s and men’s bodies, etc, and pleasing shapes > of limbs and pleasing gestures of fingers, toes nd eyebrows, and they > deceive simple people by concealing their own functions and > characteristics beginning with hardness and do not allow their individual > essences to be seen....†> ***** > > >That seems quite doubtful. It seems more likely that > > these are a different category things, namely automatic responses to > > variously sensed rupas (through various ayatana) rather than varieties > > of > > bodily rupas themselves. That is, these are vedana. > ..... > Remember, all these vedana do are to feel or ‘taste’ the rupas experienced > through the body sense. These vedana are only pleasant or unpleasant, > never neutral. Also, remember there are many other rupas involved in the > kalapa (smallest unit).. For example, whenever citta causes any part of > the body to move there must be lahuta rupa (buoyancy), muduta rupa > (plasticity) and kammannata rupa (wieldiness) produced by temperature and > nutrition, otherwise the body wouldn’t move, such as when a limb is > paraylsed. Again, I think it’s easy to be deceived by the effects. > ...... > > If none of these things are (combinations of) varieties of > > solidity, > > temperature, and pressure, but, rather, are automatic bodily/mental > > responses > > to phassa (in biological terms, perhaps a kind of thrashing about of the > > > > nervous system), then they are all vedana, not rupa, and the Goenka > > interpretation is correct, with pleasantness, unpleasantness, and > > neutrality > > being (conditioned) *characteristics* of vedana, but not the vedana > > themselves. [So, for example, contact with certain rupas produces the > > vedana > > of tingling on ones cheek, a tingling that is, say, neutral in feel. > > There > > would then be three things involved, the original contact, the resulting > > > > vedana of tingling, and, not really separate from the tingling, its > > characteristic of "neutral feel".] > > At this point, I still see two alternative views, with the case > > not > > having been fully made for either. > > One last point: As far as one's "salvation" is concerned, to use > > a > > very non-Buddhist term, this whole issue is not of great importance. (It > > is > > only of interest in having a clear understanding of terminology.) > ..... > On the otherhand, I think it is important to ‘separate’ (by direct > understanding, not just by thinking or ‘focussing’) the distinction > between the unpleasant or painful feeling and the rupas experienced as > between any other namas and rupas. > ..... > >What > > *is* > > important is in realizing that all these experienced phenomena, whatever > > we > > call them, are impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and impersonal - > > > > neither me nor mine. And directly seeing them through vipassana bhavana > > as > > they arise and cease enables the direct understanding of their true > > nature, > > the wisdom that frees us from clinging to them. > ..... > I agree with this helpful summary. However, as I’ve been discussing with > Dan, before there can be any understanding of the rising and falling away > of these phenomena through vipassana bhavana, they have to be clearly > understood and known first.The 4 characteristics of rupas (arising > (upacaya), continuation (santati), decay (jarata) and falling away > (aniccata) can only be known after the distinct sabhava or lakhana or the > rupas is apparent as I understand. > > I may have got a little lost in some of your comments towards the end, but > I know you’ll let me know if they are not addressed. > > Sarah > ====== > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14263 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Rob Ep Thanks for these comments, Rob. I will extract 1 or 2 passages from your post and intersperse my comments. Rob: "…the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization is a factor in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality". Jon: It is true, as you say, that "insight cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality". But then, neither can samatha (or the jhanas) be developed by cittas that are 'clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality'. Both samatha and vipassana require panna for their development. But there is a difference in the quality of the panna required -- in the case of samatha it is panna of the kind that knows the difference between kusala and akusala mental states, and knows the value of the tranquillity that comes with kusala. In the case of vipassana, it is panna that knows the true nature of the dhamma (be it a mental state or sense-door object) presently appearing. As to the ignorance or and wrong view that lies behind any 'ignorant conceptualizations of reality', these factors are as much hindrances to samatha as they are to vipassana. As far as other kilesas are concerned, in neither case can the panna arise contemporaneously with the akusala. But this aside, there is an important difference between samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana in the manner in which the other kilesa constitute a hindrance to its development, and this is tied in with the different nature of the 2 kinds of development. At high levels of samatha, further progress depends on being able to maintain continuously a particular object or sign (kammatthana or nimitta). Any moment of akusala that disturbs this continuity therefore interrupts the development. In the development of insight, however, there is no single or particular dhamma that is the 'right' object for awareness or understanding. A moment of (just fallen away) akusala is as good an object for insight as any another dhamma. Indeed, all categories of dhammas, including the kilesas, must sooner or later be seen as they truly are, otherwise the idea of self will not be eradicated in relation to that particular category of dhamma. Of course, since the Buddha urged the development of all kinds of kusala, samatha included, we should not neglect any opportunity for development of any aspect of kusala. Also, I acknowledge that the attainment of both mundane jhana and enlightenment is a higher attainment than the attainment of enlightenment alone. Nevertheless, it is important to understand clearly the distinction between the 2 as regards their characteristic, function and goal. There is a tendency to fudge the difference. Well, I seem to have gone on at some length on this 1 point, so perhaps I'll send this off and come back on any other points later. Jon ============ --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > ... Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is not necessary. To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree with you [!] that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening factor. My sense of the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization are a factor in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality. But i would like to see what the Visudhimagga says. So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come up with. I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not lead to insight or enlightenment. So there must at the very least be a balance. The jhanas, i would think, being very deep samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of concentration might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight. There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practicing the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval? Best, Robert Ep. ============ 14264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am Subject: Frankfood Dear Frank, We cannot keep the five precepts until we are sotapanna. Only he has no more conditions to transgress them. We may try to observe them, but when there are specific conditions it is not sure what we shall do. I appreciate your efforts to keep them as best as you can. I am just curious what is frank food that a monk would not even take? I had to laugh. Is it an ascetic practice or even more severe? Did you not relish good food before? Ants have crawled over dust, don't eat dirty food. Food is a medicine for the body. Take good care, Nina. 14265 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no. 9 Perfections, Ch 2, no 9. We read further on: Thus he gives a gift- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing; one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the first shackle to giving. Here we see that we should investigate our citta when we are not inclined to give. We read: Again, when the object to be given is inferior or defective, the Great Being reflects: ³Because I was not inclined to giving in the past, at present my requisites are defective. Therefore: though it pains me, let me give whatever I have as a gift even if the object is low and inferior. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.² Thus he gives whatever kind of gift he can- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the second shackle to giving. When someone does not give, he may reflect on it; he may realize that he did not accumulate generosity and that, from now on, he will try to accumulate it. Or, he realizes that the things he could give are defective or scarce because he did not give in the past, and that he from now on, even though he has little, should give. We read further on: When a reluctance to give arises due to the excellence or beauty of the object to be given, the Great Being admonishes himself: ²Good man, haven¹t you made the aspiration for the supreme enlightenment, the loftiest and most superior of all states? Well then, for the sake of enlightenment, it is proper for you to give excellent and beautiful objects as gifts.² Thus he gives what is excellent and beautiful- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the third shackle to giving. Sometimes when a person regrets it to give something away, he should consider what he really wants: does he want to keep that object or does he want to realize the four noble Truths? Reflection in this way could be a condition for the arising of generosity, and at that moment a shackle to generosity is destroyed. We read: When the Great Being is giving a gift, and he sees the loss of the object being given, he reflects thus: ³This is the nature of material possessions, that they are subject to loss and to passing away. Moreover, it is because I did not give such gifts in the past that my possessions are now depleted. Let me then give whatever I have as a gift, whether it be limited or abundant. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.² Thus he gives whatever he has as a gift- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the fourth shackle to giving. ***** 14266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Formal meditation and a Howard sutta Dear Howard, Jon and all, as promised, I would look at my Thai commentary, especially no. VI, 50, Howard mentioned, of which the title in my PTS ediiton is: The senses (not: step by step). I render in short: Then comes a parable of a tree with branches and leaves fallen away, it will not grow properly, and the same happens when sense control. etc. is not. When sense-control exists, etc. the opposite is the case. Now the Co:, it gives some word meanings. The title is: Indriya samvara sila, of which there are many levels. When there is mindfulness of what appears through the six doors (the indriyas or sense faculties) one is not misled by the outer appearance (think of Maha Tissa), not by concepts, and evil states do not arise, the doors are guarded by sati. This sutta highlights indriya samvara sila as we shall see at the end. The Co explains that the foundation of sila is destroyed (when there is no sense control read: indriya samvara sila). The Co goes over the different words but does not mention concentration here. < true knowledge and insight: yaatabhuuta ~naa.na dassana.m: this is tender insight. aversion and dispassion: nibbidaa viraago which will now be explained: vipassanaa which is a power is called nibbidaa, the eightfold Path is viraago. vimutti~naa.nadassana.m (emancipated knowledge and insight), this is here explained: vimutti (release) is arahatta fruition (phala), and ~naa.nadassana is here viewing knowledge, paachavekkhana ~naa.na (arising after the attainment of enlightenment). the expression, there is upanissayasampanna (succesful with, endowed with a foundation) means, sila has a foundation that is completed. In this sutta The Buddha spoke about indriya samvara which is a means that supports the observance of sila.> My remarks: Nibbidaa, vipassana as power (balava vipassana), these are the higher stages of insight: satipatthana can arise naturally, no matter where, no matter in which circumstances and be aware of any object that presents itself. Viraago: the eightfold Path: detachment. It leads to detachment. The whole practice should be with detachment. A good reminder, I find. Emancipated knowledge and insight here is of the person who has attained arahatship. Sila is highlighted here: the guarding of the six doors leading up to arahatship. I do not believe there has to be first the precepts, sila, then concentration then vipassana. How could one observe the precepts perfectly if one is not a sotapanna? It all has to go together from the beginning with mindfulness of nama and rupa and thenthere should be development on and on. The co. does not mention here concentration, this is mentioned in many other suttas. We have discussed many times before about it that when sammaditthi is developed also sammasamadhi develops. It depends on the individual to what degree, whether he is able to develop jhaana and then be aware of the jhana factors. I just like to add that specific jhana factors serve as opposing specific hindrances and is this not the aim of samatha? This means, that someone who develops jhanain order to suppress the hindrances must have a most refined knowledge of the jhanafactors, such as vitakka, applied thinking, and vicara, sustained thinking. They are so close, usually arising together, but still they have to be distinguished. At the second stage of jhana there is vicara but no longer vitakka. Who is able to know this fine distinction? Also, in order to be aware of the jhana factors, it is necessary, as also Kom stated before, to have the masteries of jhana (vasis): deciding when to enter jhana and when to emerge from it, etc. so that there can be mindfulness of nama and rupa in between jhanas. If there is no awareness of the jhana factors one does not develop vipassana, awareness and understanding of any reality that appears. One would continue to take jhana for my jhana. As regards formal meditation and to what degree one wants to engage upon this, everybody will do what he finds personally most suitable for himself, it is conditioned. Another matter is to look at the texts and see whether this or that sutta points out the benefit of formal practice. This is what Jon is interested at. I am glad to have had the opportunity to consider the Co to the sutta pointed out by Howard. Nina. op 29-06-2002 13:45 schreef Howard op Howard: three references to suttas in the Anguttara >>> Nikaya >>> which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of >>> concentration, >>> and 3) formal meditation. >>> The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as >>> *including* >>> formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). >>> The three refererences are the following: >>> 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] >>> 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] >>> 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] >>> These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, >>> An >>> Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & >>> Bhikkhu >>> Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. >> 14267 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters Hi Sukin, --- sukinderpal wrote: > [snip] > But ahimsa is not a > matter of whether we > do step on a cockroach or not no!? Isn't it a > question of intention? > > Anticipating an enjoyable reply. Sorry to disappoint, but there's not much for me to say since I agree with everything you said. You'll have to settle for a short but agreeable reply. Intention may be the most dominant factor in determining kamma and ahimsa, but again right view can not be overlooked or diminished. For example, say someone who is driving a car (an inherently dangerous activity requiring full mindfulness) who decides to engage in animated conversation and mindful attention on front seat passenger and makes frequent eye contact (at the cost of being fully mindful of the road) accidentally hits and kills some bicyclists on the narrow shoulder of the road. Is it right intention? Is it right view? Is it ahimsa? -fk 14268 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Hi Nina, > I am just curious what is frank food that a monk > would not even take? I had > to laugh. Is it an ascetic practice or even more > severe? Did you not relish > good food before? Ants have crawled over dust, don't > eat dirty food. Food is > a medicine for the body. Take good care, Frank food is simple, nutritious, mostly raw fruit/veggies and steamed veggies and sprouted legumes/grains steamed. No oil, no sauce, a pinch of salt and sometimes a pinch of curry to diversify mineral and nutrient diversity, but not enough for most people to actually realize there is any salt. My diet is something that evolved over time to optimize for nutrition and high performance yoga/meditation (i.e. maximize energy, minimize sluggishness, drowsiness, other undesirable side effects of rich flavorful meals). These meals are delicious to me, but not so stimulating that would encourage overeating. Delicious taste is a natural biological resopnse to guide us to satisfy nutrient requirements like sugar, fat, minerals, etc. However, the refined, heavily processed foods and extravagantly rich sauces has a way of enticing desire and induce heavy overeating. By eating simple, it's much easier to monitor the body's feedback which naturally lets you know when it has enough fat, sugar, salt, etc. Some monks may actually appreciate what I eat, but most monks, just as most people in the world would find my typical meal an austere practice. Admittedly, my food is not as flavorful and conventionally delicious as typical food people eat, but the benefits to energized physical and mental alertness is well worth the trade off. And over time, the benefits are so overwhelmingly clear that even the most delicious dishes have very little allure to me anymore. Kind of like how I still fully understand the gratification of owning and driving an exotic sports car, but understanding the dangers, I find the peace and relaxation of renunciation is far preferable. My experience when I do short repeats at a temple is that it there is a tremendous difference in my meditation from the diet in the temple (delicious/spicy/oily) vs. my normal diet. Normal food gives me cramps, gas, spiciness induced sharp pains in body, sluggishness in my meditation if I eat a sufficent amount to satisfy hunger. But if I don't eat enough, to decrease the negative side effects, then I slowly but systematically suffer loss of energy from lack of good nutrition. -fk 14269 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:54am Subject: ADL ch. 15 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 15 (4) We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Sixes, Ch. VI, par. 2, Phagguna) that the Buddha visited the venerable Phagguna who was very ill. Phagguna had attained the second stage of enlightenment (the stage of the sakadagami; he was not yet completely freed from the 'five lower fetters';. We read in the sutta that the Buddha said to Phagguna: 'I hope, Phagguna, you're bearing up, keeping going; that Your aches and pains grow less, not more; that there are signs of their growing less, not more?' 'Lord, I can neither bear up nor keep going; my aches and pains grow grievously more, not less; and there are signs of their growing more, not less. Lord, the violent ache that racks my head is just as though some lusty fellow chopped at it with a sharp-edged sword; Lord, I can neither bear up nor keep going; my pains grow more, not less....' So the Exalted one instructed him, roused him, gladdened him and comforted him with Dhamma-talk, then rose from his seat and departed. Now not long after the Exalted One's departure, the venerable Phagguna died; and at the time of his death his faculties were completely purified. Then went the venerable Ananda to the Exalted One, saluted him, and sat down at one side. So seated, he said: 'Lord, not long after the Exalted One left, the venerable Phagguna died; and at that time his faculties were completely purifiedl 'But why, Ananda, should not the faculties of the monk Phagguna have been completely purified? The monk's mind, Ananda, had not been wholly freed from the five lower fetters; but, when he heard that Dhamma teaching, his mind was wholly freed. There are these six advantages, Ananda, in hearing Dhamma in time, in testing its goodness in time. What six? Consider, Ananda, the monk whose mind is not wholly freed from the five lower fetters, but, when dying, is able to see the Tathagata: the Tathagata teaches him Dhamma, lovely in the beginning, lovely in the middle, lovely in the end, its goodness, its significance; and makes known the brahman-life(1), wholly fulfilled, perfectly pure. When he has heard that Dhamma teaching, his mind is wholly freed from the five lower fetters(2) . This Ananda, is the first advantage in hearing Dhamma in time. (1. In Pali: brahma-cariya: pure or holy life. This term is used for the life of the monks and for the life of laypeople who observe eight precepts. However it is also used with regard to all those who develop the Eightfold Path. The goal of the 'brahma-cariya' is the eradication of all defilements.) (2. Those who have attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the anagami are completely free from the five 'lower fetters.') Or... though not just able to see the Tathagata, sees his disciple, who teaches him Dhamma... and makes known the brahman-life... Then is his mind wholly freed from the five lower fetters. This, Ananda, is the second advantage... Or.., though not able to see the Tathagata or his disciple, continues to reflect in mind on Dhamma, as heard, as learnt, ponders on it, pores over it. Then is his mind wholly freed from the five lower fetters. This, Ananda, is the third advantage in testing its goodness in time... ' The same is said with regard to the monk who has attained the third stage of enlightenment (the stage of the anagami), and who, has the opportunity to hear dhamma and consider dhamma while listening, can attain the stage of the arahat. Summary of functions (kicca) of citta: 1. patisandhi (rebirth) 2. bhavanga (life-continuum) 3. avajjana (adverting) 4. seeing 5. hearing 6. smelling 7. tasting 8. experiencing impressions through the body-sense 9. sampaticchana (receiving) 10. santirana (investigating) 11. votthapana (determining) 12. javana (impulsion, or 'running through the object') 13. tadarammana (or tadalambana, registering) 14. cuti (dying) Questions 1. Which functions can be performed by the santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka? 2. Which functions can be performed by the santirana-citta which is kusala vipska, accompanied by upekkha (indifferent feeling)? 3. Which functions can be performed by santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by somanassa?. 4. By how many types of citta can the function of cuti (dying) be performed? Which types?. 5. Why can tadarammana-citta not arise in the rupa-brahma planes and in the arupa-brahma planes? 6. Can all types of vipakacittas experience an object through the six doors? 14270 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters Dear Frank, :-)). Frank: Sorry to disappoint, but there's not much for me to say since I agree with everything you said. You'll have to settle for a short but agreeable reply. Intention may be the most dominant factor in determining kamma and ahimsa, but again right view can not be overlooked or diminished. For example, say someone who is driving a car (an inherently dangerous activity requiring full mindfulness) who decides to engage in animated conversation and mindful attention on front seat passenger and makes frequent eye contact (at the cost of being fully mindful of the road) accidentally hits and kills some bicyclists on the narrow shoulder of the road. Is it right intention? Is it right view? Is it ahimsa? Sukin: Leaving out the 'animated' conversation. Can we say that a Sotapanna could be driving and causing the accident?! Now I'm certain I'll be receiving a "Frank" reply :-). Best wishes, Sukin. 14271 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > My goodness you are tough cookie,.... ..... Must be thanks to the gruelling training here that Dan’n Erik have put me through;-) OK, I’ll try to stick to the main points and snip out where we’re mostly in agreement. (I note the ‘threat’ of hibernation ;-( ) ..... > --> Dan: The 'beginner of insight' is a beginner of insight. Of > course, we need to stress that insight is distinctly different from > purely intellectual understanding, different from thinking about > kusala/akusala, different from fruits of concentration. Insight > typically does not arise without tremendous prior support in this > lifetime from intellectual understanding, thinking about > kusala/akusala, fruits of concentration, I think. Is this what you > mean by 'beginning insight' is 'high level wisdom'? ..... From what you write here, it suggests that the ‘tremendous prior support’ is only from intellectual understanding for these first 3 vipassana nanas to be realized and for the ‘beginner of insight’as we’re discussing in the Vism. On the contrary, I understand there has to the development of satipatthana, the repeated awareness and understanding of realities --of namas and rupas--over and over and over again until the panna is strong enough for the first vipassana nana to be realised. So in addition to all the theory and details that need to be heard, there has to be a gradual development of understanding to reach the first ‘base camp’. I believe this ‘gradual training’ and combination of pariyatti (theory) and pattipati (practice) is well supported in so many suttas, such as the Kitagiri Sutta (MN 70, BB trans) where it speaks about deep knowledge coming about by hearing, remembering, testing, checking out and so on: “Here one who has faith (in a teacher) visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays respect to him, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Damma; having heard the Dhamma, he momorises it; he examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines the meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of thsoe teachings, zeal springs up in him; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; haivng applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he srives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the ultimate truth andf sees it by penetrating it with wisdom.” ***** ..... >I can see how it > would make sense to talk about this way. Then, to understand > what 'beginning insight' means, the focus would be on the distinction > between 'wisdom' and 'insight'. Is that easier to understand that > than to understand that distinction between insight and intellectual > understanding + sila + fruits of concentraion is quite sharp? I lean > toward the latter, but I will abstain this time in favor of "we > should be open to both ways of thinking and talking about it," so I > will probably lose 1-0 in the vote. ..... As I say, it sounds like a jump between intellectual understanding ++ to high levels of insight with no ‘groundwork’ as I read you. ..... > Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', I've > no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I > understand. > --> Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've > heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such > described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a flash > of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence the > description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this > direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain > pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really doing > for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the > world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what it > had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" Followed > by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's what I > mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.' ..... Hmm- did you read this in a comic strip????? I’ll be glad to see your reference before more comment;-) ..... > Sarah: Finally eradicated yes, but gradually attenuated and removed > at these stages and different aspects of doubt about 1)n&r 2)kamma & > conditions 3) rise and fall of realities at these stages, to my > understanding. "When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly > knows and sees the sign. Hence `right seeing' is said. thus by > inference from that all formations are clearly seen as impermanent. > Herein doubt is abandoned....."X1X,26 > --> Dan: Lots of things here to discuss... > 1.'Doubt' vs. 'moha', and 'understanding concept' vs. 'understanding > paramatta-dhamma' are interesting distinctions. (a) As with the > sotapanna, who at times still has a moha sense of "I am" and a mana > sense of "I am," no longer has any doubt that "I am" is rubbish and > why it is so, so the beginner of insight still has a moha sense > of "nama is rupa" but no has any doubt that "nama is rupa" is rubbish > and just what that means. This moha that arises from moment to moment > is not eradicated until arahantship. ..... I’m a little lost in what you write here. At this stage, no doubt about nama and rupa, but plenty of moha (ignorance) as you suggest. For example, when there is no wise thinking or understanding, but just looking and speaking and having aversion, there is moha. ..... (b) The game of developing an > intellectual understanding is distinctly different from developing > experiential understanding at the paramattha level. One can memorize > many long lists of various doctrinal terms and talk intelligently > about each of them and about how they interact but have no bhavana- > maya-panya (wisdom based on direct experience). Similarly, one can > have direct knowledge of realities and a developed wisdom but still > not understand the conceptual intricacies and subtleties involved in > the long lists of terms. [Do we need a skit here about an arahant > getting lost in all the Pali terminology?] ..... Actually, I look f/w to your skit....Sounds fun and Rob ep’s always looking for material for his acting book. Maybe Erik will join in too;-)) Of course, it’s not a matter of terminology or memorised lists, but as we’re probably all ‘neyya’ (guidable types, but only after hearing detailed expositions of dhamma, wise reflection, associating with good friends, asking qus etc) unless we’re ‘padaparama’ (the types that don’t develop insight, even though they memorise and recite the teachings), I believe we need to hear and understand a considerable amount of intricacy and subtlety. For example, when we first hear about the dhamma or go on a retreat, we may think there is some understanding of ‘anicca’. By hearing more details about paramattha dhammas. as in the discussion with Howard on rupas, we see that the details are more intricate than we thought. I just thought of this example because I came across the reference to ‘tirana’ (tender ) in a footnote at the start of the chapter (Vis XX n2), while looking for another one: “Tirana could also be rendered by ‘judging’. On specific and general characteristics Pm. says : ‘hardness, touching, etc, as the respective characteristics of earth, contact etc, which are observable at all three instants , are apprehended by their being established the respective individual essences of definite materialness...” ***** I mention this to show that while someone may think they understand the impermanence of realities, but there has to be very clear understanding of namas and rupas without any confusion first. Panna has to grow slowly and gradually and not by wishing to reach stages as you know. There was another footnote and quote I came across from Pm about how it must be known in theory first and inference from the texts and then gradually with development the dhamma becomes known from direct experience. I just can’t find it now. ..... > 2. The paragraph that you cite sounds like stream-entry to me. Let's > do a little more of the paragraph: "...all formations are clearly > seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned. [...all formations > are clearly seen as painful. Herein all doubt is abandoned. in the elision in Ñm's translation>] ...all states are clearly seen > as not-self. Herein doubt is abandoned." Indeed, it is, as clearly > expressed in the next two paragraphs: "'Correct knowledge and right > seeing [as described in the previous paragraph] and covercoming of > doubt -- these things are one in meaning and only the letter is > different'(Ps.ii,62f). When a man practicing insight has become > possessed of this knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddhas' > dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, > he is called a 'lesser stream-enterer.'" An explicit statement about > the difference between the 'lesser stream-enterer' and the > regular 'stream-enterer' is not given until the last paragraph of the > next chapter: "The defining of the truth of suffering has been > effected with the defining of mentality-materiality in the > purification of view. The defining of the truth of origination has > been effected with the discerning of conditions in the purification > by overcoming doubt. The defining of the truth of the path has been > effected with the emphasizing of the right path in this purification > by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path. > So the defining of three truths has been effected firstly by means of > mundane knowledge only." [XX 130] ..... Thank you for all the extra details. Any yet, this ‘lesser stream-enterer’ is the one with tender insight as I read it. These descriptions are all from chapters XIX and XX. I think you begin to see why I refer to this 3rd stage as a very, very highly developed level of wisdom now. Even though there is lots of thinking, like now, there is no more wrong view of the ‘whole world’ or doubt about namas and rupas. There is also no doubt, as I understand, about anatta. Realities including this degree of panna are conditioned and not self. Any kind of kusala can only arise when the conditions are right and not by a special effort or practice with the idea of self who can ‘fix’ it or direct it as you’ve been reminding us all. It becomes clear from your quote why saddha (confidence/faith)-- which is often discussed -- in the Buddha’s Teachings, only develops and becomes ‘unshakeable’ as panna grows. ..... > A few final nitpicks... ..... Ok, who is the ‘tough cookie’, Dan??;-) ..... > Sarah: Primarily calm refers to passaddhi cetasika as you suggested > earlier. Like you suggest, though, all the 6 pairs accompany all all > sobhana (beautiful) cittas... > --> Dan: Correction. When YOU use "calm", you are primarily referring > to passaddhi cetasika. There is no intrisic, necessary association > between 'calm' and 'passaddhi'. ..... I think we’ll have to add this to the samatha/jhana thread which I’m happy to start on as soon as we are agreed here (no hurry as far as I’m concerned -- I mean , look how long Jon and Rob Ep are taking to even touch the shallow waves;-)). Actually, I was planning to introduce parts from your other post this time, but this one has proved a full-time job in its own right;-)...I’ll just potter along at my usual rate and if we have breaks when you hibernate or I travel -I’ll be going away mid next-week for 2wks--we can just continue later, unless anyone else joins in or takes over meanwhile (as I always hope;-)) ..... >> P.S. No book! Like you say, "It must be harder still, perhaps for > those who are revered and highly regarded [to face the truth]." I > look at a book as a way to establish entrenched views in myself. It > becomes so much harder to develop wisdom when there is the need to > defend one's published views. Let's wait until I have something less > speculative to say (and until I'm free of the obligation to bring > home the bacon). ..... Excellent answer;-) ...... Sarah ===== 14272 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] introduction Dear Ruth, Thanks for bringing it back on list. --- Ruth Klein wrote: > No, I have the Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bohdi translation. I've > supplemented it with the translations from Access to Insight > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index.html) which are mostly Thanissaro > Bhikkhu's translations. The later are easier (lighter) to carry around! Ok, the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation is the one I now use and which replaced my PTS ones (I only have a very small space). I was just quoting from it. It also has some useful commentary notes at the back. maybe you can use the other one when you go out and re-read the Bodhi one when you get home. I'm just impressed the local library has this. There is so much material just in the first two suttas (Mulapariyaya and Sabbasava Suttas). Let us know how you get on or if there's anything you wish to discuss so we can act as a surrogate support group;-). Thanks, Sarah ====== > > Ruth > > > > > > 14273 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Rebirth Dear Group, I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and wonder if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the Buddha explained and taught rebirth. I have located those below, plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional references would be much appreciated. metta, Christine Samyutta Nikaya XX.2 Nakhasikha Sutta 'The Tip of the Fingernail' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn20-002.html "In the same way, monks, few are the beings reborn among human beings. Far more are those reborn elsewhere. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Scroll down to: XV. Anatamagga-samyutta -- The unimaginable beginnings of samsara and transmigration. Assu Sutta (SN XV.3) -- Tears. "Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time...or the water in the four great oceans Danda Sutta (SN XV.9) -- The Stick. We bounce from one birth to the next, as a thrown stick bounces along the ground Duggata Sutta (SN XV.11) -- Fallen on Hard Times. When you encounter an unfortunate person, remember: you've been there, too. Sukhita Sutta (SN XV.12) -- Happy. When you encounter a fortunate person, remember: you've been there, too. Mata Sutta (SN XV.14-19) -- Mother. It's hard to meet someone who has not been, at some time in the distant past, your mother, father, son, daughter, sister, or brother. Samyutta Nikaya LVI.48 Chiggala Sutta 'The Hole' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html "Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination." Samyutta Nikaya XLII.6 Paccha-bhumika Sutta '[Brahmans] of the Western Lands' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-006.html ""So it is with any man who refrains from taking life, from stealing, & from indulging in illicit sex; refrains from lying, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; is not greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart -- [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell!' -- still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world." "Rebirth" by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha058.htm 'Dhamma without rebirth?' by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay06.html 14274 From: onco111 Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Sarah, I've enjoyed my stay (as always), but I do need to hibernate. I'll be travelling to Montana for two weeks in two weeks (are there even any computers there?! Well, at least not where I'm going--cabin in the mountains), and there is a lot of work to be done before that. It seems like this thread has run its course, so I'll just add a very small set of closing comments. ________________________________ Sarah: On the contrary, I understand there has to the development of satipatthana, the repeated awareness and understanding of realities -- of namas and rupas--over and over and over again until the panna is strong enough for the first vipassana nana to be realised. So in addition to all the theory and details that need to be heard, there has to be a gradual development of understanding to reach the first `base camp'.... Dan: Well put. > > Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', I've > > no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I > > understand. > > > > Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've > > heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such > > described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a flash > > of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence the > > description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this > > direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain > > pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really doing > > for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the > > world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what it > > had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" Followed > > by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's what I > > mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.' > ..... > Hmm- did you read this in a comic strip????? I'll be glad to see your > reference before more comment;-) Dan: Let's just say it's a Dan-ish paraphrase of something he might be able to find in the future. One thing I'd like to put on the list of things to talk about when we both come back is the correspondence between words and reality -- how the words are such simplistic summaries of extraordinarily intricate phenomena that they are bound to miss the target and that there is considerable variability in how phenomena can be described. In other words, there may be several conceptualization schemes for the same 'idea' and none of them are perfect pointers to the reality [e.g. silabbataparamasa and sakayaditthi may just be two different words for the phenomenon]). This has reverberations and consequences throughout the study and practice of Dhamma. Another topic I'd like to put on the list is the relationship between intellectual understanding, satipatthana, and vipassana. Of course, by the time we get back, all memory of what I am thinking vaguely about now may well have been totally erased. No matter. Best wishes, Sarah. Have a wonderful trip. Dan 14275 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:14pm Subject: Sarah/ Your Last Post on Vedana and Rupa Hi, Sarah - Just a brief "thank you" for the conversation on vedana and rupa, and particularly for the last post of yours on the topic. What you had to say there, together with my mulling the matter over, has enormously clarified the subject for me to the point that I have a *much* clearer distinction in my mind between the two categories of rupa and vedana. Aside from the terminological and definitional distinctions, which, by themselves, are useful and interesting but not of great importance, I actually have gained an experiential insight ('insight' in the plebian, ordinary sense ;-). What that is is the following: It had seemed to me that there is a category of experience called "pain" that is distinct from ordinary bodily sensation (such as pressure or sharpness or dull weight etc) on the one hand, and also distinct from the displeasure resulting from such bodily sensation. It had seemed to me that this alleged 3rd category was intermediate between these two, with the bodily sensation (rupa) resulting in pain (also rupa), and the pain typically resulting in displeasure (vedana). But, in response to your post, I engaged in introspection, and discovered that there is no separate, intermediate category of "pain". What there is is the initial rupic contact of pressure or sharpness or dull weight etc which conditions displeasure which, itself, is the actual physical pain. (Our mind, after the fact, blends the rupic contact with the displeasure into a separate percept which was not directly encountered as a "paramattha dhamma", but was mind-constructed.) The distinctions we make among various pains are due to the conditioning rupic contacts. The prick of a bee sting and the cramp in my leg are two different (groups of) rupas; the feeling of them as unpleasant, in each case, is physical pain; the apparent *difference* in those pains is not due to the differences in occurrences of the vedana of unpleasant feeling per se, but, rather, to the characteristics of the conditioning rupas. The mind *mixes* the two, the rupa and vedanic response - it conflates them. So - the bottom line here is that I have come to see my experience of rupa and vedana a bit more clearly, and I thank you for helping that along. For a person like me who is inclined to math, science, and philosophy, "seeing clearly" the way things are is pleasant, if not compulsive. ;-)) Of course, as far as the real importance of "clear seeing" is concerned, that, I think, lies only in leading one to seeing the *impersonality* of all dhammas, their conditioned and tentative status, and their unworthiness of being clung to. Ultimately, it is the only the direct knowing of the tilakkhana which is freeing, not knowing the specific characteristics of specific dhammas. Knowing these specific characteristics is simply a means to the end of realizing the tilakkhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14276 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:27pm Subject: Re: A Minor Point Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Howard I have a few thoughts about the use of 'meditation' in translations of the suttas, following my earlier comment that the term does not have a precise meaning in English. --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a recent post you asked: > > > Do the texts, for example, speak of > > slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements' > etc) > > as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding? How does > > noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that > the > > suttas say are to be known? The texts are the ultimate touchstone for > > right or wrong view. We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or > anyone > > else's assurance on this. > > > ========================== > I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts > certainly > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from > the > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking > meditation in the open air." > > With metta, > Howard I think it's worth keeping in mind that 'meditation' is not a translation of an exact equivalent term in the Pali. As far as I have been able to figure out, 'meditation' is used to translate a variety of Pali terms including the following: - bhavana, as in samatha bhavana (rendered as 'concentration meditation') and vipassana bhavana ('insight meditation') - jhaayatha, 'meditate' - cankamana, 'walking meditation' It might be helpful to consider the original Pali terms so that we have a better idea of the possible context when we meet the term 'meditation'. Bhavana The Pali term 'bhavana' seems to mean 'development'. In the texts it is used to refer particularly to the development of wholesome acts that are accomplished wholly through the mind door, i.e., they are acts that do not include any expression through speech or body. To my understanding, this development requires the presence of panna (understanding). Thus, bhavana means wholesome acts performed through the mind-door and accompanied by panna. In the teachings these are classed as either samatha or vipassana. Now, while the higher levels of samatha may involve periods of sitting (interspersed with 'cankamana' - walking back and forth), there is no *necessary* association between samatha bhavana and 'sitting'. And in the case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts. If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as something that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting for the purpose. Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries this implication for many readers. Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am misinterpreted. I am of course not overlooking the fact that there were many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting' attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not 'sitting' -- listening to the Buddha's discourses). And among the many monks in the Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most (but not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'. (BTW, I wonder if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work out the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…). Jhaayatha This is a term that refers collectively to the 2 kinds of bhavana just discussed, so my comments on the use of meditation here would be much the same. However, jhaayatha is perhaps considered as having an additional claim to association with 'meditation' in that it sometimes appears in connection with references to the roots of trees and empty places, as in 'There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, bhikkhus, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.' (M 19). In this context does jhaayatha refer to formal seated meditation? To my reading of the texts, the reference to empty places and roots of trees is a reference to a whole way of living, implying in fact not just the monk's life but a particular 'higher' form of the homeless life -- not living in a 'town' monastery, having no contact with lay people outside the alms round, not taking up any duties or interests such as study or instruction, being solitary by nature, and so forth. It's a lifestyle that not every monk (perhaps only a small minority) would be suited to. For those who are ready for this form of the homeless life, to whom it comes naturally, it is purer even than the 'regular' monk's life, due to the more highly developed kusala required to live the life properly. Yes, the time of day after the almsround and (single) daily meal is spent walking back and forth and sitting (as is most of the night), but this is as much a reflection of the highly developed kusala of the monk who is able to live this life as it is a means for the further development of that monk's kusala. In urging his followers spend time in empty places and at the roots of trees, the Buddha was encouraging monks to lead an even purer life than they were already living. To my reading, though, it is not a case of the Buddha saying that a person who leads this lifestyle will have more, or more highly developed, kusala (and even less is it a case of him saying, if you want to have more kusala, then lead this lifestyle/spend more time sitting). My two cents on 'meditation' as found in the texts! Jon 14277 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Rob Ep Let me continue with 1 or 2 other points from your post. Rob: "…samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not lead to insight or enlightenment. The jhanas, being very deep samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of concentration, might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight." Jon: Hmmm … Not sure about this. Samatha is the tranquillity that accompanies wholesome (kusala) moments only, and the jhanas are the highest form of samatha. In other words, jhana is the outcome of samatha properly developed and maintained to its fullest. So samatha could never lead to a drug-like state. Perhaps you are thinking of concentration. Concentration can be either kusala or akusala, and may indeed lead to unwholesome concentrated states. The terminology can be a little confusing here. 'Concentration' can have different meanings, depending on the context. It might be worth mentioning one or two examples. 'Concentration' can refer, for example, to: --Samatha/the jhanas. Samatha is kusala only. Its literal meaning is tranquillity or calm, which is a reference to the calmness that comes with kusala. Because in highly developed samatha the concentration factor is also highly developed, it is sometimes referred to as samadhi (e.g., in the Visuddhimagga) --A period of (apparently) continuous attention to the same object. This is the conventional meaning of concentration in the context of mental development. Can be kusala or akusala. If akusala, could result in a 'drug-like' state. --The mental factor of concentration (samadhi cetasika), one of the 7 mental factors that accompanies every moment of consciousness (the 'universals'). --The fact that a citta and its cetasikas all take the same object and that object only. This is the function of samadhi cetasika. Rob: "There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practising the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval?' Jon: The practice of samatha and the attainment of the jhanas was obviously very widespread among ascetics of all persuasions in the time of the Buddha. It was I believe a phenomenon that existed quite independently of the Buddha's encouragement of it to his followers. It was approved and encouraged by the Buddha, I suppose, because it is a very high level of kusala and, as such, a support for the development of panna/vipassana. While samatha is not something that only monks can have or develop, its development to the degree of jhana, and the attainments that come with its mastery, is a proper 'resort' (gocara') for monks in particular rather than lay-people. Jon ============ --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > ... Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is not necessary. To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree with you [!] that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening factor. My sense of the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization are a factor in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality. But i would like to see what the Visudhimagga says. So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come up with. I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not lead to insight or enlightenment. So there must at the very least be a balance. The jhanas, i would think, being very deep samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of concentration might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight. There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practicing the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval? Best, Robert Ep. ============ 14278 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: Rebirth Dear Christine, There are so many that you will spend a long time collecting them all. The 545 Jataka are one group. Here is a couple more: http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm Anguttara Nikaya CHAPTER XX Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER 1) Blessings BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein http://www.vipassana.info/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm Majjhima Nikaaya I. 2. 9. Dvedhaavitakkasutta.m I recollected the manifold previous births such as one birth, two births, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand births, innumerable forward cycles of births, innumerable backward cycles of births and innumerable forward and backward cycles of births. There I was of such name, clan, disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant and unpleasant feelings, and with such a life span. Disappearing from there was born there, There too I was of such name, clan, disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant and unpleasant feelings, and with such .a life span. Disappearing from there is born here.Thus I recollect the manifold previous births..This is the first knowledge that I realized in the first watch of the night and knowledge arose and darkness got dispelled when I abode diligent for dispelling. best Robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and wonder > if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the > Buddha explained and taught rebirth. I have located those below, > plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional references > would be much appreciated. > > metta, > Christine > /news/essay06.html 14264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am Subject: Frankfood Dear Frank, We cannot keep the five precepts until we are sotapanna. Only he has no more conditions to transgress them. We may try to observe them, but when there are specific conditions it is not sure what we shall do. I appreciate your efforts to keep them as best as you can. I am just curious what is frank food that a monk would not even take? I had to laugh. Is it an ascetic practice or even more severe? Did you not relish good food before? Ants have crawled over dust, don't eat dirty food. Food is a medicine for the body. Take good care, Nina. 14265 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no. 9 Perfections, Ch 2, no 9. We read further on: Thus he gives a gift- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing; one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the first shackle to giving. Here we see that we should investigate our citta when we are not inclined to give. We read: Again, when the object to be given is inferior or defective, the Great Being reflects: ³Because I was not inclined to giving in the past, at present my requisites are defective. Therefore: though it pains me, let me give whatever I have as a gift even if the object is low and inferior. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.² Thus he gives whatever kind of gift he can- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the second shackle to giving. When someone does not give, he may reflect on it; he may realize that he did not accumulate generosity and that, from now on, he will try to accumulate it. Or, he realizes that the things he could give are defective or scarce because he did not give in the past, and that he from now on, even though he has little, should give. We read further on: When a reluctance to give arises due to the excellence or beauty of the object to be given, the Great Being admonishes himself: ²Good man, haven¹t you made the aspiration for the supreme enlightenment, the loftiest and most superior of all states? Well then, for the sake of enlightenment, it is proper for you to give excellent and beautiful objects as gifts.² Thus he gives what is excellent and beautiful- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the third shackle to giving. Sometimes when a person regrets it to give something away, he should consider what he really wants: does he want to keep that object or does he want to realize the four noble Truths? Reflection in this way could be a condition for the arising of generosity, and at that moment a shackle to generosity is destroyed. We read: When the Great Being is giving a gift, and he sees the loss of the object being given, he reflects thus: ³This is the nature of material possessions, that they are subject to loss and to passing away. Moreover, it is because I did not give such gifts in the past that my possessions are now depleted. Let me then give whatever I have as a gift, whether it be limited or abundant. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.² Thus he gives whatever he has as a gift- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the fourth shackle to giving. ***** 14266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Formal meditation and a Howard sutta Dear Howard, Jon and all, as promised, I would look at my Thai commentary, especially no. VI, 50, Howard mentioned, of which the title in my PTS ediiton is: The senses (not: step by step). I render in short: Then comes a parable of a tree with branches and leaves fallen away, it will not grow properly, and the same happens when sense control. etc. is not. When sense-control exists, etc. the opposite is the case. Now the Co:, it gives some word meanings. The title is: Indriya samvara sila, of which there are many levels. When there is mindfulness of what appears through the six doors (the indriyas or sense faculties) one is not misled by the outer appearance (think of Maha Tissa), not by concepts, and evil states do not arise, the doors are guarded by sati. This sutta highlights indriya samvara sila as we shall see at the end. The Co explains that the foundation of sila is destroyed (when there is no sense control read: indriya samvara sila). The Co goes over the different words but does not mention concentration here. < true knowledge and insight: yaatabhuuta ~naa.na dassana.m: this is tender insight. aversion and dispassion: nibbidaa viraago which will now be explained: vipassanaa which is a power is called nibbidaa, the eightfold Path is viraago. vimutti~naa.nadassana.m (emancipated knowledge and insight), this is here explained: vimutti (release) is arahatta fruition (phala), and ~naa.nadassana is here viewing knowledge, paachavekkhana ~naa.na (arising after the attainment of enlightenment). the expression, there is upanissayasampanna (succesful with, endowed with a foundation) means, sila has a foundation that is completed. In this sutta The Buddha spoke about indriya samvara which is a means that supports the observance of sila.> My remarks: Nibbidaa, vipassana as power (balava vipassana), these are the higher stages of insight: satipatthana can arise naturally, no matter where, no matter in which circumstances and be aware of any object that presents itself. Viraago: the eightfold Path: detachment. It leads to detachment. The whole practice should be with detachment. A good reminder, I find. Emancipated knowledge and insight here is of the person who has attained arahatship. Sila is highlighted here: the guarding of the six doors leading up to arahatship. I do not believe there has to be first the precepts, sila, then concentration then vipassana. How could one observe the precepts perfectly if one is not a sotapanna? It all has to go together from the beginning with mindfulness of nama and rupa and thenthere should be development on and on. The co. does not mention here concentration, this is mentioned in many other suttas. We have discussed many times before about it that when sammaditthi is developed also sammasamadhi develops. It depends on the individual to what degree, whether he is able to develop jhaana and then be aware of the jhana factors. I just like to add that specific jhana factors serve as opposing specific hindrances and is this not the aim of samatha? This means, that someone who develops jhanain order to suppress the hindrances must have a most refined knowledge of the jhanafactors, such as vitakka, applied thinking, and vicara, sustained thinking. They are so close, usually arising together, but still they have to be distinguished. At the second stage of jhana there is vicara but no longer vitakka. Who is able to know this fine distinction? Also, in order to be aware of the jhana factors, it is necessary, as also Kom stated before, to have the masteries of jhana (vasis): deciding when to enter jhana and when to emerge from it, etc. so that there can be mindfulness of nama and rupa in between jhanas. If there is no awareness of the jhana factors one does not develop vipassana, awareness and understanding of any reality that appears. One would continue to take jhana for my jhana. As regards formal meditation and to what degree one wants to engage upon this, everybody will do what he finds personally most suitable for himself, it is conditioned. Another matter is to look at the texts and see whether this or that sutta points out the benefit of formal practice. This is what Jon is interested at. I am glad to have had the opportunity to consider the Co to the sutta pointed out by Howard. Nina. op 29-06-2002 13:45 schreef Howard op Howard: three references to suttas in the Anguttara >>> Nikaya >>> which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of >>> concentration, >>> and 3) formal meditation. >>> The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as >>> *including* >>> formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). >>> The three refererences are the following: >>> 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] >>> 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] >>> 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] >>> These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, >>> An >>> Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & >>> Bhikkhu >>> Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. >> 14267 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters Hi Sukin, --- sukinderpal wrote: > [snip] > But ahimsa is not a > matter of whether we > do step on a cockroach or not no!? Isn't it a > question of intention? > > Anticipating an enjoyable reply. Sorry to disappoint, but there's not much for me to say since I agree with everything you said. You'll have to settle for a short but agreeable reply. Intention may be the most dominant factor in determining kamma and ahimsa, but again right view can not be overlooked or diminished. For example, say someone who is driving a car (an inherently dangerous activity requiring full mindfulness) who decides to engage in animated conversation and mindful attention on front seat passenger and makes frequent eye contact (at the cost of being fully mindful of the road) accidentally hits and kills some bicyclists on the narrow shoulder of the road. Is it right intention? Is it right view? Is it ahimsa? -fk 14268 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Hi Nina, > I am just curious what is frank food that a monk > would not even take? I had > to laugh. Is it an ascetic practice or even more > severe? Did you not relish > good food before? Ants have crawled over dust, don't > eat dirty food. Food is > a medicine for the body. Take good care, Frank food is simple, nutritious, mostly raw fruit/veggies and steamed veggies and sprouted legumes/grains steamed. No oil, no sauce, a pinch of salt and sometimes a pinch of curry to diversify mineral and nutrient diversity, but not enough for most people to actually realize there is any salt. My diet is something that evolved over time to optimize for nutrition and high performance yoga/meditation (i.e. maximize energy, minimize sluggishness, drowsiness, other undesirable side effects of rich flavorful meals). These meals are delicious to me, but not so stimulating that would encourage overeating. Delicious taste is a natural biological resopnse to guide us to satisfy nutrient requirements like sugar, fat, minerals, etc. However, the refined, heavily processed foods and extravagantly rich sauces has a way of enticing desire and induce heavy overeating. By eating simple, it's much easier to monitor the body's feedback which naturally lets you know when it has enough fat, sugar, salt, etc. Some monks may actually appreciate what I eat, but most monks, just as most people in the world would find my typical meal an austere practice. Admittedly, my food is not as flavorful and conventionally delicious as typical food people eat, but the benefits to energized physical and mental alertness is well worth the trade off. And over time, the benefits are so overwhelmingly clear that even the most delicious dishes have very little allure to me anymore. Kind of like how I still fully understand the gratification of owning and driving an exotic sports car, but understanding the dangers, I find the peace and relaxation of renunciation is far preferable. My experience when I do short repeats at a temple is that it there is a tremendous difference in my meditation from the diet in the temple (delicious/spicy/oily) vs. my normal diet. Normal food gives me cramps, gas, spiciness induced sharp pains in body, sluggishness in my meditation if I eat a sufficent amount to satisfy hunger. But if I don't eat enough, to decrease the negative side effects, then I slowly but systematically suffer loss of energy from lack of good nutrition. -fk 14269 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:54am Subject: ADL ch. 15 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 15 (4) We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Sixes, Ch. VI, par. 2, Phagguna) that the Buddha visited the venerable Phagguna who was very ill. Phagguna had attained the second stage of enlightenment (the stage of the sakadagami; he was not yet completely freed from the 'five lower fetters';. We read in the sutta that the Buddha said to Phagguna: 'I hope, Phagguna, you're bearing up, keeping going; that Your aches and pains grow less, not more; that there are signs of their growing less, not more?' 'Lord, I can neither bear up nor keep going; my aches and pains grow grievously more, not less; and there are signs of their growing more, not less. Lord, the violent ache that racks my head is just as though some lusty fellow chopped at it with a sharp-edged sword; Lord, I can neither bear up nor keep going; my pains grow more, not less....' So the Exalted one instructed him, roused him, gladdened him and comforted him with Dhamma-talk, then rose from his seat and departed. Now not long after the Exalted One's departure, the venerable Phagguna died; and at the time of his death his faculties were completely purified. Then went the venerable Ananda to the Exalted One, saluted him, and sat down at one side. So seated, he said: 'Lord, not long after the Exalted One left, the venerable Phagguna died; and at that time his faculties were completely purifiedl 'But why, Ananda, should not the faculties of the monk Phagguna have been completely purified? The monk's mind, Ananda, had not been wholly freed from the five lower fetters; but, when he heard that Dhamma teaching, his mind was wholly freed. There are these six advantages, Ananda, in hearing Dhamma in time, in testing its goodness in time. What six? Consider, Ananda, the monk whose mind is not wholly freed from the five lower fetters, but, when dying, is able to see the Tathagata: the Tathagata teaches him Dhamma, lovely in the beginning, lovely in the middle, lovely in the end, its goodness, its significance; and makes known the brahman-life(1), wholly fulfilled, perfectly pure. When he has heard that Dhamma teaching, his mind is wholly freed from the five lower fetters(2) . This Ananda, is the first advantage in hearing Dhamma in time. (1. In Pali: brahma-cariya: pure or holy life. This term is used for the life of the monks and for the life of laypeople who observe eight precepts. However it is also used with regard to all those who develop the Eightfold Path. The goal of the 'brahma-cariya' is the eradication of all defilements.) (2. Those who have attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the anagami are completely free from the five 'lower fetters.') Or... though not just able to see the Tathagata, sees his disciple, who teaches him Dhamma... and makes known the brahman-life... Then is his mind wholly freed from the five lower fetters. This, Ananda, is the second advantage... Or.., though not able to see the Tathagata or his disciple, continues to reflect in mind on Dhamma, as heard, as learnt, ponders on it, pores over it. Then is his mind wholly freed from the five lower fetters. This, Ananda, is the third advantage in testing its goodness in time... ' The same is said with regard to the monk who has attained the third stage of enlightenment (the stage of the anagami), and who, has the opportunity to hear dhamma and consider dhamma while listening, can attain the stage of the arahat. Summary of functions (kicca) of citta: 1. patisandhi (rebirth) 2. bhavanga (life-continuum) 3. avajjana (adverting) 4. seeing 5. hearing 6. smelling 7. tasting 8. experiencing impressions through the body-sense 9. sampaticchana (receiving) 10. santirana (investigating) 11. votthapana (determining) 12. javana (impulsion, or 'running through the object') 13. tadarammana (or tadalambana, registering) 14. cuti (dying) Questions 1. Which functions can be performed by the santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka? 2. Which functions can be performed by the santirana-citta which is kusala vipska, accompanied by upekkha (indifferent feeling)? 3. Which functions can be performed by santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by somanassa?. 4. By how many types of citta can the function of cuti (dying) be performed? Which types?. 5. Why can tadarammana-citta not arise in the rupa-brahma planes and in the arupa-brahma planes? 6. Can all types of vipakacittas experience an object through the six doors? 14270 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters Dear Frank, :-)). Frank: Sorry to disappoint, but there's not much for me to say since I agree with everything you said. You'll have to settle for a short but agreeable reply. Intention may be the most dominant factor in determining kamma and ahimsa, but again right view can not be overlooked or diminished. For example, say someone who is driving a car (an inherently dangerous activity requiring full mindfulness) who decides to engage in animated conversation and mindful attention on front seat passenger and makes frequent eye contact (at the cost of being fully mindful of the road) accidentally hits and kills some bicyclists on the narrow shoulder of the road. Is it right intention? Is it right view? Is it ahimsa? Sukin: Leaving out the 'animated' conversation. Can we say that a Sotapanna could be driving and causing the accident?! Now I'm certain I'll be receiving a "Frank" reply :-). Best wishes, Sukin. 14271 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > My goodness you are tough cookie,.... ..... Must be thanks to the gruelling training here that Dan’n Erik have put me through;-) OK, I’ll try to stick to the main points and snip out where we’re mostly in agreement. (I note the ‘threat’ of hibernation ;-( ) ..... > --> Dan: The 'beginner of insight' is a beginner of insight. Of > course, we need to stress that insight is distinctly different from > purely intellectual understanding, different from thinking about > kusala/akusala, different from fruits of concentration. Insight > typically does not arise without tremendous prior support in this > lifetime from intellectual understanding, thinking about > kusala/akusala, fruits of concentration, I think. Is this what you > mean by 'beginning insight' is 'high level wisdom'? ..... From what you write here, it suggests that the ‘tremendous prior support’ is only from intellectual understanding for these first 3 vipassana nanas to be realized and for the ‘beginner of insight’as we’re discussing in the Vism. On the contrary, I understand there has to the development of satipatthana, the repeated awareness and understanding of realities --of namas and rupas--over and over and over again until the panna is strong enough for the first vipassana nana to be realised. So in addition to all the theory and details that need to be heard, there has to be a gradual development of understanding to reach the first ‘base camp’. I believe this ‘gradual training’ and combination of pariyatti (theory) and pattipati (practice) is well supported in so many suttas, such as the Kitagiri Sutta (MN 70, BB trans) where it speaks about deep knowledge coming about by hearing, remembering, testing, checking out and so on: “Here one who has faith (in a teacher) visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays respect to him, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Damma; having heard the Dhamma, he momorises it; he examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines the meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of thsoe teachings, zeal springs up in him; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; haivng applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he srives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the ultimate truth andf sees it by penetrating it with wisdom.” ***** ..... >I can see how it > would make sense to talk about this way. Then, to understand > what 'beginning insight' means, the focus would be on the distinction > between 'wisdom' and 'insight'. Is that easier to understand that > than to understand that distinction between insight and intellectual > understanding + sila + fruits of concentraion is quite sharp? I lean > toward the latter, but I will abstain this time in favor of "we > should be open to both ways of thinking and talking about it," so I > will probably lose 1-0 in the vote. ..... As I say, it sounds like a jump between intellectual understanding ++ to high levels of insight with no ‘groundwork’ as I read you. ..... > Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', I've > no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I > understand. > --> Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've > heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such > described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a flash > of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence the > description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this > direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain > pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really doing > for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the > world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what it > had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" Followed > by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's what I > mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.' ..... Hmm- did you read this in a comic strip????? I’ll be glad to see your reference before more comment;-) ..... > Sarah: Finally eradicated yes, but gradually attenuated and removed > at these stages and different aspects of doubt about 1)n&r 2)kamma & > conditions 3) rise and fall of realities at these stages, to my > understanding. "When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly > knows and sees the sign. Hence `right seeing' is said. thus by > inference from that all formations are clearly seen as impermanent. > Herein doubt is abandoned....."X1X,26 > --> Dan: Lots of things here to discuss... > 1.'Doubt' vs. 'moha', and 'understanding concept' vs. 'understanding > paramatta-dhamma' are interesting distinctions. (a) As with the > sotapanna, who at times still has a moha sense of "I am" and a mana > sense of "I am," no longer has any doubt that "I am" is rubbish and > why it is so, so the beginner of insight still has a moha sense > of "nama is rupa" but no has any doubt that "nama is rupa" is rubbish > and just what that means. This moha that arises from moment to moment > is not eradicated until arahantship. ..... I’m a little lost in what you write here. At this stage, no doubt about nama and rupa, but plenty of moha (ignorance) as you suggest. For example, when there is no wise thinking or understanding, but just looking and speaking and having aversion, there is moha. ..... (b) The game of developing an > intellectual understanding is distinctly different from developing > experiential understanding at the paramattha level. One can memorize > many long lists of various doctrinal terms and talk intelligently > about each of them and about how they interact but have no bhavana- > maya-panya (wisdom based on direct experience). Similarly, one can > have direct knowledge of realities and a developed wisdom but still > not understand the conceptual intricacies and subtleties involved in > the long lists of terms. [Do we need a skit here about an arahant > getting lost in all the Pali terminology?] ..... Actually, I look f/w to your skit....Sounds fun and Rob ep’s always looking for material for his acting book. Maybe Erik will join in too;-)) Of course, it’s not a matter of terminology or memorised lists, but as we’re probably all ‘neyya’ (guidable types, but only after hearing detailed expositions of dhamma, wise reflection, associating with good friends, asking qus etc) unless we’re ‘padaparama’ (the types that don’t develop insight, even though they memorise and recite the teachings), I believe we need to hear and understand a considerable amount of intricacy and subtlety. For example, when we first hear about the dhamma or go on a retreat, we may think there is some understanding of ‘anicca’. By hearing more details about paramattha dhammas. as in the discussion with Howard on rupas, we see that the details are more intricate than we thought. I just thought of this example because I came across the reference to ‘tirana’ (tender ) in a footnote at the start of the chapter (Vis XX n2), while looking for another one: “Tirana could also be rendered by ‘judging’. On specific and general characteristics Pm. says : ‘hardness, touching, etc, as the respective characteristics of earth, contact etc, which are observable at all three instants , are apprehended by their being established the respective individual essences of definite materialness...” ***** I mention this to show that while someone may think they understand the impermanence of realities, but there has to be very clear understanding of namas and rupas without any confusion first. Panna has to grow slowly and gradually and not by wishing to reach stages as you know. There was another footnote and quote I came across from Pm about how it must be known in theory first and inference from the texts and then gradually with development the dhamma becomes known from direct experience. I just can’t find it now. ..... > 2. The paragraph that you cite sounds like stream-entry to me. Let's > do a little more of the paragraph: "...all formations are clearly > seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned. [...all formations > are clearly seen as painful. Herein all doubt is abandoned. in the elision in Ñm's translation>] ...all states are clearly seen > as not-self. Herein doubt is abandoned." Indeed, it is, as clearly > expressed in the next two paragraphs: "'Correct knowledge and right > seeing [as described in the previous paragraph] and covercoming of > doubt -- these things are one in meaning and only the letter is > different'(Ps.ii,62f). When a man practicing insight has become > possessed of this knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddhas' > dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, > he is called a 'lesser stream-enterer.'" An explicit statement about > the difference between the 'lesser stream-enterer' and the > regular 'stream-enterer' is not given until the last paragraph of the > next chapter: "The defining of the truth of suffering has been > effected with the defining of mentality-materiality in the > purification of view. The defining of the truth of origination has > been effected with the discerning of conditions in the purification > by overcoming doubt. The defining of the truth of the path has been > effected with the emphasizing of the right path in this purification > by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path. > So the defining of three truths has been effected firstly by means of > mundane knowledge only." [XX 130] ..... Thank you for all the extra details. Any yet, this ‘lesser stream-enterer’ is the one with tender insight as I read it. These descriptions are all from chapters XIX and XX. I think you begin to see why I refer to this 3rd stage as a very, very highly developed level of wisdom now. Even though there is lots of thinking, like now, there is no more wrong view of the ‘whole world’ or doubt about namas and rupas. There is also no doubt, as I understand, about anatta. Realities including this degree of panna are conditioned and not self. Any kind of kusala can only arise when the conditions are right and not by a special effort or practice with the idea of self who can ‘fix’ it or direct it as you’ve been reminding us all. It becomes clear from your quote why saddha (confidence/faith)-- which is often discussed -- in the Buddha’s Teachings, only develops and becomes ‘unshakeable’ as panna grows. ..... > A few final nitpicks... ..... Ok, who is the ‘tough cookie’, Dan??;-) ..... > Sarah: Primarily calm refers to passaddhi cetasika as you suggested > earlier. Like you suggest, though, all the 6 pairs accompany all all > sobhana (beautiful) cittas... > --> Dan: Correction. When YOU use "calm", you are primarily referring > to passaddhi cetasika. There is no intrisic, necessary association > between 'calm' and 'passaddhi'. ..... I think we’ll have to add this to the samatha/jhana thread which I’m happy to start on as soon as we are agreed here (no hurry as far as I’m concerned -- I mean , look how long Jon and Rob Ep are taking to even touch the shallow waves;-)). Actually, I was planning to introduce parts from your other post this time, but this one has proved a full-time job in its own right;-)...I’ll just potter along at my usual rate and if we have breaks when you hibernate or I travel -I’ll be going away mid next-week for 2wks--we can just continue later, unless anyone else joins in or takes over meanwhile (as I always hope;-)) ..... >> P.S. No book! Like you say, "It must be harder still, perhaps for > those who are revered and highly regarded [to face the truth]." I > look at a book as a way to establish entrenched views in myself. It > becomes so much harder to develop wisdom when there is the need to > defend one's published views. Let's wait until I have something less > speculative to say (and until I'm free of the obligation to bring > home the bacon). ..... Excellent answer;-) ...... Sarah ===== 14272 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] introduction Dear Ruth, Thanks for bringing it back on list. --- Ruth Klein wrote: > No, I have the Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bohdi translation. I've > supplemented it with the translations from Access to Insight > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index.html) which are mostly Thanissaro > Bhikkhu's translations. The later are easier (lighter) to carry around! Ok, the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation is the one I now use and which replaced my PTS ones (I only have a very small space). I was just quoting from it. It also has some useful commentary notes at the back. maybe you can use the other one when you go out and re-read the Bodhi one when you get home. I'm just impressed the local library has this. There is so much material just in the first two suttas (Mulapariyaya and Sabbasava Suttas). Let us know how you get on or if there's anything you wish to discuss so we can act as a surrogate support group;-). Thanks, Sarah ====== 14273 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Rebirth Dear Group, I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and wonder if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the Buddha explained and taught rebirth. I have located those below, plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional references would be much appreciated. metta, Christine Samyutta Nikaya XX.2 Nakhasikha Sutta 'The Tip of the Fingernail' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn20-002.html "In the same way, monks, few are the beings reborn among human beings. Far more are those reborn elsewhere. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Scroll down to: XV. Anatamagga-samyutta -- The unimaginable beginnings of samsara and transmigration. Assu Sutta (SN XV.3) -- Tears. "Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time...or the water in the four great oceans Danda Sutta (SN XV.9) -- The Stick. We bounce from one birth to the next, as a thrown stick bounces along the ground Duggata Sutta (SN XV.11) -- Fallen on Hard Times. When you encounter an unfortunate person, remember: you've been there, too. Sukhita Sutta (SN XV.12) -- Happy. When you encounter a fortunate person, remember: you've been there, too. Mata Sutta (SN XV.14-19) -- Mother. It's hard to meet someone who has not been, at some time in the distant past, your mother, father, son, daughter, sister, or brother. Samyutta Nikaya LVI.48 Chiggala Sutta 'The Hole' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html "Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination." Samyutta Nikaya XLII.6 Paccha-bhumika Sutta '[Brahmans] of the Western Lands' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-006.html ""So it is with any man who refrains from taking life, from stealing, & from indulging in illicit sex; refrains from lying, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; is not greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart -- [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell!' -- still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world." "Rebirth" by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha058.htm 'Dhamma without rebirth?' by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay06.html 14274 From: onco111 Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Sarah, I've enjoyed my stay (as always), but I do need to hibernate. I'll be travelling to Montana for two weeks in two weeks (are there even any computers there?! Well, at least not where I'm going--cabin in the mountains), and there is a lot of work to be done before that. It seems like this thread has run its course, so I'll just add a very small set of closing comments. ________________________________ Sarah: On the contrary, I understand there has to the development of satipatthana, the repeated awareness and understanding of realities -- of namas and rupas--over and over and over again until the panna is strong enough for the first vipassana nana to be realised. So in addition to all the theory and details that need to be heard, there has to be a gradual development of understanding to reach the first `base camp'.... Dan: Well put. > > Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', I've > > no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I > > understand. > > > > Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've > > heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such > > described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a flash > > of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence the > > description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this > > direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain > > pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really doing > > for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the > > world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what it > > had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" Followed > > by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's what I > > mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.' > ..... > Hmm- did you read this in a comic strip????? I'll be glad to see your > reference before more comment;-) Dan: Let's just say it's a Dan-ish paraphrase of something he might be able to find in the future. One thing I'd like to put on the list of things to talk about when we both come back is the correspondence between words and reality -- how the words are such simplistic summaries of extraordinarily intricate phenomena that they are bound to miss the target and that there is considerable variability in how phenomena can be described. In other words, there may be several conceptualization schemes for the same 'idea' and none of them are perfect pointers to the reality [e.g. silabbataparamasa and sakayaditthi may just be two different words for the phenomenon]). This has reverberations and consequences throughout the study and practice of Dhamma. Another topic I'd like to put on the list is the relationship between intellectual understanding, satipatthana, and vipassana. Of course, by the time we get back, all memory of what I am thinking vaguely about now may well have been totally erased. No matter. Best wishes, Sarah. Have a wonderful trip. Dan 14275 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:14pm Subject: Sarah/ Your Last Post on Vedana and Rupa Hi, Sarah - Just a brief "thank you" for the conversation on vedana and rupa, and particularly for the last post of yours on the topic. What you had to say there, together with my mulling the matter over, has enormously clarified the subject for me to the point that I have a *much* clearer distinction in my mind between the two categories of rupa and vedana. Aside from the terminological and definitional distinctions, which, by themselves, are useful and interesting but not of great importance, I actually have gained an experiential insight ('insight' in the plebian, ordinary sense ;-). What that is is the following: It had seemed to me that there is a category of experience called "pain" that is distinct from ordinary bodily sensation (such as pressure or sharpness or dull weight etc) on the one hand, and also distinct from the displeasure resulting from such bodily sensation. It had seemed to me that this alleged 3rd category was intermediate between these two, with the bodily sensation (rupa) resulting in pain (also rupa), and the pain typically resulting in displeasure (vedana). But, in response to your post, I engaged in introspection, and discovered that there is no separate, intermediate category of "pain". What there is is the initial rupic contact of pressure or sharpness or dull weight etc which conditions displeasure which, itself, is the actual physical pain. (Our mind, after the fact, blends the rupic contact with the displeasure into a separate percept which was not directly encountered as a "paramattha dhamma", but was mind-constructed.) The distinctions we make among various pains are due to the conditioning rupic contacts. The prick of a bee sting and the cramp in my leg are two different (groups of) rupas; the feeling of them as unpleasant, in each case, is physical pain; the apparent *difference* in those pains is not due to the differences in occurrences of the vedana of unpleasant feeling per se, but, rather, to the characteristics of the conditioning rupas. The mind *mixes* the two, the rupa and vedanic response - it conflates them. So - the bottom line here is that I have come to see my experience of rupa and vedana a bit more clearly, and I thank you for helping that along. For a person like me who is inclined to math, science, and philosophy, "seeing clearly" the way things are is pleasant, if not compulsive. ;-)) Of course, as far as the real importance of "clear seeing" is concerned, that, I think, lies only in leading one to seeing the *impersonality* of all dhammas, their conditioned and tentative status, and their unworthiness of being clung to. Ultimately, it is the only the direct knowing of the tilakkhana which is freeing, not knowing the specific characteristics of specific dhammas. Knowing these specific characteristics is simply a means to the end of realizing the tilakkhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14276 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:27pm Subject: Re: A Minor Point Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Howard I have a few thoughts about the use of 'meditation' in translations of the suttas, following my earlier comment that the term does not have a precise meaning in English. --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a recent post you asked: > > > Do the texts, for example, speak of > > slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements' > etc) > > as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding? How does > > noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that > the > > suttas say are to be known? The texts are the ultimate touchstone for > > right or wrong view. We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or > anyone > > else's assurance on this. > > > ========================== > I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts > certainly > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from > the > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking > meditation in the open air." > > With metta, > Howard I think it's worth keeping in mind that 'meditation' is not a translation of an exact equivalent term in the Pali. As far as I have been able to figure out, 'meditation' is used to translate a variety of Pali terms including the following: - bhavana, as in samatha bhavana (rendered as 'concentration meditation') and vipassana bhavana ('insight meditation') - jhaayatha, 'meditate' - cankamana, 'walking meditation' It might be helpful to consider the original Pali terms so that we have a better idea of the possible context when we meet the term 'meditation'. Bhavana The Pali term 'bhavana' seems to mean 'development'. In the texts it is used to refer particularly to the development of wholesome acts that are accomplished wholly through the mind door, i.e., they are acts that do not include any expression through speech or body. To my understanding, this development requires the presence of panna (understanding). Thus, bhavana means wholesome acts performed through the mind-door and accompanied by panna. In the teachings these are classed as either samatha or vipassana. Now, while the higher levels of samatha may involve periods of sitting (interspersed with 'cankamana' - walking back and forth), there is no *necessary* association between samatha bhavana and 'sitting'. And in the case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts. If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as something that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting for the purpose. Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries this implication for many readers. Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am misinterpreted. I am of course not overlooking the fact that there were many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting' attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not 'sitting' -- listening to the Buddha's discourses). And among the many monks in the Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most (but not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'. (BTW, I wonder if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work out the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…). Jhaayatha This is a term that refers collectively to the 2 kinds of bhavana just discussed, so my comments on the use of meditation here would be much the same. However, jhaayatha is perhaps considered as having an additional claim to association with 'meditation' in that it sometimes appears in connection with references to the roots of trees and empty places, as in 'There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, bhikkhus, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.' (M 19). In this context does jhaayatha refer to formal seated meditation? To my reading of the texts, the reference to empty places and roots of trees is a reference to a whole way of living, implying in fact not just the monk's life but a particular 'higher' form of the homeless life -- not living in a 'town' monastery, having no contact with lay people outside the alms round, not taking up any duties or interests such as study or instruction, being solitary by nature, and so forth. It's a lifestyle that not every monk (perhaps only a small minority) would be suited to. For those who are ready for this form of the homeless life, to whom it comes naturally, it is purer even than the 'regular' monk's life, due to the more highly developed kusala required to live the life properly. Yes, the time of day after the almsround and (single) daily meal is spent walking back and forth and sitting (as is most of the night), but this is as much a reflection of the highly developed kusala of the monk who is able to live this life as it is a means for the further development of that monk's kusala. In urging his followers spend time in empty places and at the roots of trees, the Buddha was encouraging monks to lead an even purer life than they were already living. To my reading, though, it is not a case of the Buddha saying that a person who leads this lifestyle will have more, or more highly developed, kusala (and even less is it a case of him saying, if you want to have more kusala, then lead this lifestyle/spend more time sitting). My two cents on 'meditation' as found in the texts! Jon 14277 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Rob Ep Let me continue with 1 or 2 other points from your post. Rob: "…samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not lead to insight or enlightenment. The jhanas, being very deep samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of concentration, might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight." Jon: Hmmm … Not sure about this. Samatha is the tranquillity that accompanies wholesome (kusala) moments only, and the jhanas are the highest form of samatha. In other words, jhana is the outcome of samatha properly developed and maintained to its fullest. So samatha could never lead to a drug-like state. Perhaps you are thinking of concentration. Concentration can be either kusala or akusala, and may indeed lead to unwholesome concentrated states. The terminology can be a little confusing here. 'Concentration' can have different meanings, depending on the context. It might be worth mentioning one or two examples. 'Concentration' can refer, for example, to: --Samatha/the jhanas. Samatha is kusala only. Its literal meaning is tranquillity or calm, which is a reference to the calmness that comes with kusala. Because in highly developed samatha the concentration factor is also highly developed, it is sometimes referred to as samadhi (e.g., in the Visuddhimagga) --A period of (apparently) continuous attention to the same object. This is the conventional meaning of concentration in the context of mental development. Can be kusala or akusala. If akusala, could result in a 'drug-like' state. --The mental factor of concentration (samadhi cetasika), one of the 7 mental factors that accompanies every moment of consciousness (the 'universals'). --The fact that a citta and its cetasikas all take the same object and that object only. This is the function of samadhi cetasika. Rob: "There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practising the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval?' Jon: The practice of samatha and the attainment of the jhanas was obviously very widespread among ascetics of all persuasions in the time of the Buddha. It was I believe a phenomenon that existed quite independently of the Buddha's encouragement of it to his followers. It was approved and encouraged by the Buddha, I suppose, because it is a very high level of kusala and, as such, a support for the development of panna/vipassana. While samatha is not something that only monks can have or develop, its development to the degree of jhana, and the attainments that come with its mastery, is a proper 'resort' (gocara') for monks in particular rather than lay-people. Jon ============ --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > ... Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is not necessary. To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree with you [!] that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening factor. My sense of the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization are a factor in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality. But i would like to see what the Visudhimagga says. So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come up with. I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not lead to insight or enlightenment. So there must at the very least be a balance. The jhanas, i would think, being very deep samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of concentration might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight. There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practicing the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval? Best, Robert Ep. ============ 14278 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: Rebirth Dear Christine, There are so many that you will spend a long time collecting them all. The 545 Jataka are one group. Here is a couple more: http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm Anguttara Nikaya CHAPTER XX Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER 1) Blessings BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein http://www.vipassana.info/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm Majjhima Nikaaya I. 2. 9. Dvedhaavitakkasutta.m I recollected the manifold previous births such as one birth, two births, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand births, innumerable forward cycles of births, innumerable backward cycles of births and innumerable forward and backward cycles of births. There I was of such name, clan, disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant and unpleasant feelings, and with such a life span. Disappearing from there was born there, There too I was of such name, clan, disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant and unpleasant feelings, and with such .a life span. Disappearing from there is born here.Thus I recollect the manifold previous births..This is the first knowledge that I realized in the first watch of the night and knowledge arose and darkness got dispelled when I abode diligent for dispelling. best Robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and wonder > if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the > Buddha explained and taught rebirth. I have located those below, > plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional references > would be much appreciated. > > metta, > Christine > /news/essay06.html 14279 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:00am Subject: problems in daily life, to Ruth. Dear Ruth, Welcome here in dsg. You know, we also talk here about daily problems. You wrote about expectations that parents have of their children, how oppressive this can be. There is possessiveness, my child, it has to be like me. This is different from pure metta, when one only thinks of the benefit of someone else. Pure metta comes over differently, I find, one can sense it, even an animal knows. My father (101 years) is very possessive about his dog, and the dog senses the difference between possessiveness and metta. He feels it when you just think of his benefit, when we, for example, take him to the vet. But we are also attached to the dog. I have found that Sarah and Chistine have many helpful suggestions applying the Dhamma in daily life. I asked Sarah about mindfulness of death, saying, that I need this, and she wrote to me in a most helpful way. Also writing about your problems will help you to feel less lonely, I am sure. As Sarah said, a sense of humor will help, it is funny too how parents expect things, it can make us laugh. We make thorough studies here but we also have fun. I often laugh aloud on my own when reading a post. No need to feel lonely here, but I can sympathize with you. Take good care, Nina. 14280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:00am Subject: characteristics Dear Howard, Sarah and all, I followed with interest the discussions on feelings, stingy, tingling, prickly or whatever. The injection needle, pressure (during Howard's sickness?), musquito bites. When I was with A. Sujin I talked about mosquito bites and was only thinking of painful feeling, but she asked: is there no heat? We may be thinking so much of all these definitions that we forget what can be directly experienced, without defining. Then it may well be that a reality, a dhamma, appears,(if we are not *trying* to find out) different from what we were thinking about. I listened to a tape yesterday, made in India and heard Jon ask: what is the difference between sabhava dhamma (dhamma with its own nature, bhava) and a characteristic, lakkhana. A. Sujin answered: I remembered here a post of Howard, where he so carefully explained that there is no difference between a reality and its characteristic, as I just heard when listening to the tape. I think it is important to know the difference between a rupa impinging on the bodysense and feeling. Feeling is nama, it experiences, it feels. We do not have to think: it experiences, it does not experience, most important is to realize these two characteristics as different, and this is a gradual process, it takes a long time. When our eyes are open there is seeing, visible object, thinking of what we see. When we close our eyes, there is hearing, sound, thinking. There may also be bodily impressions: rupas and namas. We do not have to name them or define them. But it can be gradually learnt that feeling, no matter what kind, is not rupa. Is this not a phenomenological enterprise, as Howard would say? The tape continued: We think that we know what direct awareness is, and when we listen again to the Dhamma we realize that we did not understand yet. Ups and downs. The boundary line between thinking and awareness may not seem clear. When we read in the Visuddhimagga about the stages of tender insight and we read about knowledge by deduction, it seems theory. I used to think that. But A. Sujin explained that it is all about insight, not theoretical understanding. The first stage: distinguishing between the characteristic of nama and of rupa is not theoretical at all. I asked A. Sujin in India: This makes me think of the discussions on trying to slow things down, because we are not in time. But no need to worry about that, panna's only task is realizing the characteristic that appears. Th tape continues: The eightfold Path leads to detachment, there should be detachment from a self who tries to find out about realities. Don't we build up obstructions to sati, trying to ensure favorable conditions for sati, instead of letting sati do its task: just being aware of whatever appears now? Hundreds of times we think of bread or chair, my feeling, my body, but once in a while when we do not try to have sati or do not even expect it, just a characteristic may appear through one doorway at a time. Then realities are not taken together as a whole, self, the world. It is a most difficult subject and I find I need to consider it a lot and discuss it. I all mounts to knowing when there is sati and when thinking of a concept or idea. Best wishes from Nina. 14281 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:33am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters Hi Sukin, > > Sukin: > Leaving out the 'animated' conversation. Can we say > that a > Sotapanna could be driving and causing the > accident?! > > Now I'm certain I'll be receiving a "Frank" reply > :-). There certainly are no certainties, especially when predicting Frank behavior, but as luck (kamma?)would have it once again I reply. I feel like a sports superstar now, referring to myself in third person. Now all I need is a dhamma possee, new rims for my mercedes, a gold chain around my neck with the letters "dsg", and I'll be dhamma pimpin in style. I recall the sotopanna who was known for drinking (alcoholic beverages) and boorish behavior. The other monks and lay people couldn't believe it when the Buddha proclaimed him a stream-enterer. If that particular guy is driving the car, or even just a horse and chariot, I would definitely NOT want to be riding my bike on the shoulder when he's zooming by. My confidence in scripture only goes so far. -fk 14282 From: Ruth Klein Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth. Hello Nina, Ok, so I don't have much knowledge of scripture, but I sure do have first hand knowledge of life's little problems! I often don't realize (until much much later) that others have the SAME problems; and may have already found ways of working them out. The biggest issue I'm dealing with right now is the pressure to marry and start a family. Most of the time I am content with my life the way it is. I spent three years examining "Who am I?" and have become comfortable with where I am. However, I don't think that that question is skillful anymore; and I'm not sure what question I should be asking. In addition, though I am happy whith where I am in life, I very easily get caught up in the idea of finding some 'special' person with whom to share my life. Quite often I can't tell if it's truely my own desire, or a societal/parental pressure. I feel most lonely when I'm trying to separate what is real from what is conditioned thought and my mind is not often quiet enough to find out. Has anyone else found a way to deal with this? Ironically this feeling usually overwhelms me 20-30 minutes AFTER a formal meditiation session, and I've suffered more because I cannot stop the rest of my life to sit and explore more thoroughly. It gets burried 'til the next time. Namaste, Ruth > -----Original Message----- > From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:Nina] > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 1:01 PM > Subject: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth. > > > Dear Ruth, > Welcome here in dsg. You know, we also talk here about daily problems. You > wrote about expectations that parents have of their children, how > oppressive > this can be. There is possessiveness, my child, it has to be like me. This > is different from pure metta, when one only thinks of the benefit > of someone > else. Pure metta comes over differently, I find, one can sense it, even an > animal knows. My father (101 years) is very possessive about his dog, and > the dog senses the difference between possessiveness and metta. > He feels it > when you just think of his benefit, when we, for example, take him to the > vet. But we are also attached to the dog. I have found that Sarah and > Chistine have many helpful suggestions applying the Dhamma in > daily life. I > asked Sarah about mindfulness of death, saying, that I need this, and she > wrote to me in a most helpful way. Also writing about your problems will > help you to feel less lonely, I am sure. As Sarah said, a sense of humor > will help, it is funny too how parents expect things, it can make > us laugh. > We make thorough studies here but we also have fun. I often laugh aloud on > my own when reading a post. No need to feel lonely here, but I can > sympathize with you. Take good care, > Nina. 14283 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics Hi all, now you have me thinking about feeling and rupa. So I thought I would throw my 2 cents in. First, what we are talking about is body consciousness, a nama. Body consciousness is different from the other physical senses in that it can experience pleasure and pain while seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting can only experience neutral feeling. Secondly, there is a difference between touching (nama) and hardness (rupa); just as there is a difference between light and seeing. Thirdly, mind consciousness can experience pleasant, painful, and neutral feeling. So there can be a painful body feeling followed by a painful mental feeling, or not. One other thing of interest, the pleasantness of a pleasant taste is actually a pleasant mental feeling. Also, 5-door feelings are results of kamma and mind door feelings motivate kamma. have a nice day, Larry 14284 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth. --- "Ruth Klein" wrote: > I feel most lonely when I'm trying to separate what is real from what is conditioned thought and my mind is not often quiet enough to find out. Has anyone else found a way to deal with this? Ironically this feeling usually overwhelms me 20-30 minutes AFTER a formal meditiation session, and > I've suffered more because I cannot stop the rest of my life to sit and > explore more thoroughly. It gets burried 'til the next time. > amaste, > Ruth >___________ Dear Ruth, I think gradually we learn to see - by means of the Dhamma- that every moment is the same: just conditioned phenomenena. When there is any clinging to place or time or formal meditation then there is no understanding of the moments that are happening right now; rather there is wishing that things could be other than they are. But nama(mentality) and rupa(materiality) arise whether one is calm or when one is agitated - they have to be known no matter they are pleasant or unpleasant. By learning the Dhamma one comes to know that all dhammas are not-self, alien, dukkha (even the most pleasant) and that knowledge brings with it unlimited courage. Then, I think the many trials in life, can be opportunities for insight and other beneficial qualities to develop. This is an old post you might like to read: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/837 Also this book is very good http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm metta Robert 14285 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth. Hello Ruth, Lovely to read your post, may I add my welcome and hope to hear lots more from you .... Feeling isolated and unsupported is a very familiar experience. I feel exactly as you do quite often. Like you, I realised there were only two choices ... continue on in spiritual loneliness and depression, and possibly fall away from the Teachings, or try to do something about it. Initially, I used anything that could help. Meditation groups, Retreats, Internet groups, visiting monasteries, discussion with other Buddhists. For a meditator, meditation groups are a good contact point - though with the one I was in, once the original teacher moved away none of the members were interested in any more than the two hour gathering and practice once a week, and social meetings - most had no knowledge of the Teachings, and they considered themselves vaguely non- denominational buddhists. Regarding dear ones who are not buddhist ... over time I have noticed a change in relatives and friends. Very few have dropped away. Most accept me as I am, just as they used to do before I became 'nice, but odd'...... If someone is really interested in Buddhism and asks questions, I try to give sufficient info in my answers so they can search further if they wish, and are prepared to make an effort themselves. But I do not bring up the subject of buddhism unless asked. For me, the answer was the Internet (for study and discussion) and a few trips during the year to meet with buddhist friends I've found, and those I can learn from. Still not the easy way it was in Christianity - meeting with scores of like-minded people more than once a week, the integration of a structured spiritual life, social life and the school life of my children, culturally acceptable and approved. But this is just the way it is - we are Buddhists in nominally Christian countries, nothing else we can do but live the life we have. The rewards grew for me as a satisfying order came into my life. As I studied more of the Teachings, I lost interest in 'what' (and sometimes 'who') were not useful in learning and understanding the Dhamma, and gained interest in 'what' and 'who' were. I really didn't have much free choice - it happened - resisting the Dhamma was not one of the available options. Be at peace about whether or not you should marry, or whether or not you should have children .... Is someone you love and desire beating down the door right at this moment demanding a decision? ....if you wish to and the opportunity arises ...do so; if you don't wish to ...don't. To marry and have children is the easiest thing in the world to begin ..... a more difficult thing to maintain and continue .... a most difficult thing to finish and leave. There are no guarantees. There is no hurry, no compulsion to decide your entire Life's path right now..... Though broad plans are advisable no- one can predict how long each of us will live, the urgent need is to practice and study the Teachings now, there is really just this moment. Everything can only be experienced in this moment. All the rest is the past that has gone for ever, or the future that may never come. metta, Christine --- "Ruth Klein" wrote: > Hello Nina, > > Ok, so I don't have much knowledge of scripture, but I sure do have first > hand knowledge of life's little problems! I often don't realize (until much > much later) that others have the SAME problems; and may have already found > ways of working them out. > > The biggest issue I'm dealing with right now is the pressure to marry and > start a family. Most of the time I am content with my life the way it is. > I spent three years examining "Who am I?" and have become comfortable with > where I am. However, I don't think that that question is skillful anymore; > and I'm not sure what question I should be asking. In addition, though I am > happy whith where I am in life, I very easily get caught up in the idea of > finding some 'special' person with whom to share my life. Quite often I > can't tell if it's truely my own desire, or a societal/parental pressure. I > feel most lonely when I'm trying to separate what is real from what is > conditioned thought and my mind is not often quiet enough to find out. > > Has anyone else found a way to deal with this? Ironically this feeling > usually overwhelms me 20-30 minutes AFTER a formal meditiation session, and > I've suffered more because I cannot stop the rest of my life to sit and > explore more thoroughly. It gets burried 'til the next time. > > Namaste, > Ruth 14286 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah/ Your Last Post on Vedana and Rupa Hi Howard, I really appreciate your two messages to me. I’ve also found the discussion very helpful. Sometimes it’s only when one is really questioned by someone with a great or only slightly different understanding that one considers more carefully and also begins to look at what one is just repeating and what is really understood directly. In your first post where you very helpfully gave your initial response and then your re-thought resonse, I particularly appreciated the openness, the pragmatic approach and lack of evident mana (conceit) which made it possible for you to re-evaluate in this way. I’m talking very conventionally here, but I know you’ll understand.(I’m not suggesting you’re an arahat with no mana;-)) We can all learn from the example and it’s easy to see how entrenched views and mana would make this impossible. Just a brief comment on the last two paragraphs of your second post as we’re nicely winding up this thread for now, I think: --- Howard wrote: > > So - the bottom line here is that I have come to see my > experience of > rupa and vedana a bit more clearly, and I thank you for helping that > along. > For a person like me who is inclined to math, science, and philosophy, > "seeing clearly" the way things are is pleasant, if not compulsive. ;-)) ..... Perhaps for all of us, each little bit of dust that is removed from our vision gives great relief and usually, it’s only when it’s removed that we have any idea that the dust was there....;-) It’s challenging (but helpful) for me to talk to mathematicians like you and Dan, because anything said has to be logical. But then, the Dhamma is logical.... ..... > > Of course, as far as the real importance of "clear seeing" is > concerned, that, I think, lies only in leading one to seeing the > *impersonality* of all dhammas, their conditioned and tentative status, > and > their unworthiness of being clung to. ..... Very nicely put. This is exactly why it is important to understand dhammas as namas and rupas (as Nina just wrote about) -- It’s the only way that they will be seen as anatta. ..... >Ultimately, it is the only the > direct > knowing of the tilakkhana which is freeing, not knowing the specific > characteristics of specific dhammas. Knowing these specific > characteristics > is simply a means to the end of realizing the tilakkhana. ..... Ah, but remember the tilakkhana are the characteristics of ‘specific dhammas’, so they go together, so to speak......Not sure if we have any difference here or not..... Thank you again for your kind and generous comments and for sharing what you have learnt, Howard. Sarah ==== p.sAnyone who has been following this thread might find Nina’s ‘Rupas’ useful reading (1st 2 chapters in particular) and also C4 on Rupa in her translation of K.Sujin’s ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’. Probably the chapter on ‘vedana’ in Cetasikas would be helpful too. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Preface%20to%20paramattha.htm http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas.html http://www.dhammastudy.com/Rupas1.html> ............................................................................................. 14287 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I've enjoyed my stay (as always), but I do need to hibernate. I'll be > travelling to Montana for two weeks in two weeks (are there even any > computers there?! Well, at least not where I'm going--cabin in the > mountains), and there is a lot of work to be done before that. > > It seems like this thread has run its course, so I'll just add a very > small set of closing comments. ..... I hope you have a great trip to the mountains. Sounds lovely. Maybe you can work on your skit and points for the ‘next round’. Do Lisa and the kids get the holiday too, I wonder? If so, perhaps Lisa can write her own skit on her 'glorious husband' stuck in his Pali grammar...;-) Jon’s latest toy is an I-pod (sp?) which somehow ‘goes with’ a Mac computer and carries about 60 hrs of dhamma discussion from MP3 files into a tiny little matchbox machine which now accompanies him on hikes, on flights and even to bed. So now on a walk, a typical conversation goes: Sarah: there’s another snake to tell Chris about... Jon: <> (Thai shorthand)...good point Sarah: Huh? did you see the white cockatoo? Jon: &%$#@% (more Thai)....it means ‘metta now is more precious than.....’*&%$ Sarah: Maybe we’ll have some silent walking meditation......;-) ..... >> Dan: Let's just say it's a Dan-ish paraphrase of something he might > be able to find in the future. ..... I’ll be waiting..;-)) .... OK, this is a good agenda (below) and I can see I’ll need a good holiday first;-) We can also add: - your comments on dustrag - samatha and jhana -insight -> jhana As you say, a good point to pause and we can both look out for/consider reinforcements, as hopefully will others;-) Many thanks again for all the Vism quotes and stimulating (read:demanding) discussion which I found very helpful. We’ll speak after our trips. Sarah ===== > One thing I'd like to put on the list of things to talk about when we > both come back is the correspondence between words and reality -- how > the words are such simplistic summaries of extraordinarily intricate > phenomena that they are bound to miss the target and that there is > considerable variability in how phenomena can be described. In other > words, there may be several conceptualization schemes for the > same 'idea' and none of them are perfect pointers to the reality > [e.g. silabbataparamasa and sakayaditthi may just be two different > words for the phenomenon]). This has reverberations and consequences > throughout the study and practice of Dhamma. > > Another topic I'd like to put on the list is the relationship between > intellectual understanding, satipatthana, and vipassana. > > Of course, by the time we get back, all memory of what I am thinking > vaguely about now may well have been totally erased. No matter. ................................................................................................ 14288 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:36pm Subject: Re: Rebirth Dear Robert, and All, Thanks Robert. I have often heard you and others say there are a great many references to show where the Buddha taught rebirth, that it was not in doubt. I am particularly looking for Sutta references. I had always accepted incessant rebirth as unquestionedly a Buddhist Doctrine - but reading messages on a multi- tradition list, and also on other Theravada lists, has given me a shock. Very large numbers of western Buddhists regard rebirth merely as a poetic way of expressing the process of awakening, and regard awakening itself as being a metaphor for the continuous process of overcoming ignorance. They either reject the orthodox view of rebirth totally or are agnostic. So I feel a need to verify that the Buddha specifically taught rebirth, and that he meant actual rebirth not using the term as a metaphor for something else. metta, Christine --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Christine, > There are so many that you will spend a long time collecting them > all. > The 545 Jataka are one group. Here is a couple more: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm > Anguttara Nikaya > CHAPTER XX > Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER > 1) Blessings > http://www.vipassana.info/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm > Majjhima Nikaaya I. > 2. 9. Dvedhaavitakkasutta.m > best > Robert > "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and > wonder > > if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the > > Buddha explained and taught rebirth. I have located those below, > > plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional references > > would be much appreciated. > > > > metta, > > Christine > > /news/essay06.html 14289 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:11pm Subject: No Difference (Re: [dsg] Sarah/ Your Last Post on Vedana and Rupa) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/13/02 5:41:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > >Ultimately, it is the only the > > direct > > knowing of the tilakkhana which is freeing, not knowing the specific > > characteristics of specific dhammas. Knowing these specific > > characteristics > > is simply a means to the end of realizing the tilakkhana. > ..... > Ah, but remember the tilakkhana are the characteristics of ‘specific > dhammas’, so they go together, so to speak......Not sure if we have any > difference here or not..... > ======================= No, I don't think any difference. Knowing individual characteristics is important. The only true knowing is direct and detailed. I'm just pinpointing exactly where I see that importance to lie, namely in leading one to the tilakkhana., and from there to liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14290 From: Ruth Klein Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 7:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] problems in daily life Christine, What an encouraging response. Thank you. Actually, my parents are quite accepting of my studying Buddhism. I come from a Jewish 'house', where my parents sent us to religious school, but themselves didn't seriously practice. In fact, one of the reasons I chose to 'leave' the Jewish community - many years before I heard any Dhamma - was the feeling of lip service, mechanism of ritual, and politicism I saw Jews paying to their own religion. When I first decided to accept the 5 Precepts, it really wasn't all that different from the way I was already trying to conduct my daily life (though I REALLY need to become more mindful of gossip!). I think part of my parents' acceptance is that, well, they can see that I'm not being brainwashed into something. So I sit and meditate, ok... They all see that I try to treat people with respect and kindness, and that I really sit and listen, which are things they tried to teach me as a child! Often I have a hard time accepting that I am a Buddhist and not just a Jew studying the teachings of the Buddha. But then I remember that both are simply labels and it doesn't really matter anymore. Actually, about love and marriage, no one is beating down my door. In fact, its just the opposite. Everyone is concerned that I never date. Its not that I'm not attracted to men. I just happen to not be attracted to just every man who crosses my path, and the few who I have... well, let's just say that in the past 2.5 years there have been 2 men - one has chosen to Go Forth and ordain, the other lives in Germany (and I currently call Oklahoma home). Enough talk! Be safe, Ruth > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 3:54 AM > Feeling isolated and unsupported is a very familiar experience. I > feel exactly as you do quite often. Like you, I realised there were > only two choices ... continue on in spiritual loneliness and > depression, and possibly fall away from the Teachings, or try to do > something about it. Initially, I used anything that could help. > Meditation groups, Retreats, Internet groups, visiting monasteries, > discussion with other Buddhists. For a meditator, meditation groups > are a good contact point - though with the one I was in, once the > original teacher moved away none of the > members were interested in any more than the two hour gathering and > practice once a week, and social meetings - most had no knowledge of > the Teachings, and they considered themselves vaguely non- > denominational buddhists. Regarding dear ones who are not > buddhist ... over time I have noticed a change in relatives and > friends. Very few have dropped away. Most accept me as I am, just as > they used to do before I became 'nice, but odd'...... If someone is > really interested in Buddhism and asks questions, I try to give > sufficient info in my answers so they can search further if they > wish, and are prepared to make an effort themselves. But I do not > bring up the subject of buddhism unless asked. > For me, the answer was the Internet (for study and discussion) and a > few trips during the year to meet with buddhist friends I've found, > and those I can learn from. Still not the easy way it was in > Christianity - meeting with scores of like-minded people more than > once a week, the integration of a structured spiritual life, social > life and the school life of my children, culturally acceptable and > approved. But this is just the way it is - we are Buddhists in > nominally Christian countries, nothing else we can do but live the > life we have. The rewards grew for me as a satisfying order came > into my life. As I studied more of the Teachings, I lost interest > in 'what' (and sometimes 'who') were not useful in learning and > understanding the Dhamma, and gained interest in 'what' and 'who' > were. I really didn't have much free choice - it happened - > resisting the Dhamma was not one of the available options. > Be at peace about whether or not you should marry, or whether or not > you should have children .... Is someone you love and desire beating > down the door right at this moment demanding a decision? ....if you > wish to and the opportunity arises ...do so; if you don't wish > to ...don't. To marry and have children is the easiest thing in > the world to begin ..... a more difficult thing to maintain and > continue .... a most difficult thing to finish and leave. There are > no guarantees. There is no hurry, no compulsion to decide your > entire Life's path right now..... Though broad plans are advisable no- > one can predict how long each of us will live, the urgent need is to > practice and study the Teachings now, there is really just this > moment. Everything can only be experienced in this moment. All the > rest is the past that has gone for ever, or the future that may never > come. > 14291 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 8:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Sarah, Yes, we have computers in Montana as I am typing on one. If you are really coming to Montana and happen to pass thru Missoula on your way to your cabin in the wood if you have time and would like to get together for tea I would certain enjoy meeting you. I will be here thru mid August so please let me know. With metta, Shakti Sarah wrote: Dear Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I've enjoyed my stay (as always), but I do need to hibernate. I'll be > travelling to Montana for two weeks in two weeks (are there even any > computers there?! Well, at least not where I'm going--cabin in the > mountains), and there is a lot of work to be done before that. > > It seems like this thread has run its course, so I'll just add a very > small set of closing comments. ..... I hope you have a great trip to the mountains. Sounds lovely. Maybe you can work on your skit and points for the ‘next round’. Do Lisa and the kids get the holiday too, I wonder? If so, perhaps Lisa can write her own skit on her 'glorious husband' stuck in his Pali grammar...;-) Jon’s latest toy is an I-pod (sp?) which somehow ‘goes with’ a Mac computer and carries about 60 hrs of dhamma discussion from MP3 files into a tiny little matchbox machine which now accompanies him on hikes, on flights and even to bed. So now on a walk, a typical conversation goes: Sarah: there’s another snake to tell Chris about... Jon: <> (Thai shorthand)...good point Sarah: Huh? did you see the white cockatoo? Jon: &%$#@% (more Thai)....it means ‘metta now is more precious than.....’*&%$ Sarah: Maybe we’ll have some silent walking meditation......;-) ..... >> Dan: Let's just say it's a Dan-ish paraphrase of something he might > be able to find in the future. ..... I’ll be waiting..;-)) .... OK, this is a good agenda (below) and I can see I’ll need a good holiday first;-) We can also add: - your comments on dustrag - samatha and jhana -insight -> jhana As you say, a good point to pause and we can both look out for/consider reinforcements, as hopefully will others;-) Many thanks again for all the Vism quotes and stimulating (read:demanding) discussion which I found very helpful. We’ll speak after our trips. Sarah ===== > One thing I'd like to put on the list of things to talk about when we > both come back is the correspondence between words and reality -- how > the words are such simplistic summaries of extraordinarily intricate > phenomena that they are bound to miss the target and that there is > considerable variability in how phenomena can be described. In other > words, there may be several conceptualization schemes for the > same 'idea' and none of them are perfect pointers to the reality > [e.g. silabbataparamasa and sakayaditthi may just be two different > words for the phenomenon]). This has reverberations and consequences > throughout the study and practice of Dhamma. > > Another topic I'd like to put on the list is the relationship between > intellectual understanding, satipatthana, and vipassana. > > Of course, by the time we get back, all memory of what I am thinking > vaguely about now may well have been totally erased. No matter. ................................................................................................ 14292 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:09pm Subject: Re: Rebirth Hi Christine and all, Please refer to the section (Recollection of Past Lives) in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html The first sentence in that section says: "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes)." Not everyone is able to see his or her past lives. It would be a mistake to say that there are no past lives when one does not see them. Regards, Victor --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, and All, > > Thanks Robert. I have often heard you and others say there are a > great many references to show where the Buddha taught rebirth, that > it was not in doubt. I am particularly looking for Sutta > references. I had always accepted incessant rebirth as > unquestionedly a Buddhist Doctrine - but reading messages on a multi- > tradition list, and also on other Theravada lists, has given me a > shock. Very large numbers of western Buddhists regard rebirth merely > as a poetic way of expressing the process of awakening, and regard > awakening itself as being a metaphor for the continuous process of > overcoming ignorance. They either reject the orthodox view of rebirth > totally or are agnostic. So I feel a need to verify that the Buddha > specifically taught rebirth, and that he meant actual rebirth not > using the term as a metaphor for something else. > > metta, > Christine 14293 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:28pm Subject: Re: Rebirth --- Dear Christine (and Victor), I love reading over the Dhammapada too. Many short suttas here mention rebirth. e.g. http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm#334337 Manujassa pamattacaarino, ta.nhaa va.d.dhati maaluvaa viya; so plavatii huraa hura.m, phalamiccha.mva vanasmi vaanaro. Verse 334. In a man who is unmindful craving grows like a creeper. He runs from birth to birth, like a monkey seeking fruits in the forest. Huraahura.m means 'in various existences or succesive births'. I also read this in the same section which is nice to contemplate: Verse 367. He who does not take the mind-and-body aggregate (nama- rupa) as "I and mine", and who does not grieve over the dissolution (of mind and body) is, indeed, called a bhikkhu. 367. Sabbaso naamaruupasmi.m, yassa natthi mamaayita.m; asataa ca na socati, sa ve "bhikkhuu"ti vuccati. Robert "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > Please refer to the section (Recollection of Past Lives) in > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > The first sentence in that section says: > "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, > free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to > imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the > recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes)." > > Not everyone is able to see his or her past lives. It would be a > mistake to say that there are no past lives when one does not see > them. > > Regards, > Victor > > > --- 14294 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Victor --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Howard, Jon, and all, … > I don't want to argue with you, Jon, whether the attainment of jhanas > is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. Right concentration > is part of Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha pointed out the Path, > and it is really up to us to follow it. Jon, instead of trying to > prove or figure out whether attainment of jhana is necessary for > enlightenment, I think it would be more beneficial to follow the > Buddha's instruction to develop right concentration, along with other > factors in the Path. > You might be interested in the following discourses > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html I of course agree that Right Concentration is a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. However, I think you and I disagree as to just what that means. You understand that, since Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path is described in terms of the jhanas, it means that Right Concentration is developed by developing samatha/the jhanas, and that this may be done independently of the other 7 factors. I understand it to mean that Right Concentration is the concentration that arises together with the other 7 path factors at a moment of path consciousness, and accordingly that Right Concentration is developed by developing satipatthana, which is also known as the mundane path. So we are not about to agree on anything just now ;-)) Many thanks for the sutta references. In the first of these (copied below, because it is quite short), the Buddha encourages the development of that concentration by which a monk 'discerns things as they actually are present'. To my way of thinking, this is a description of the concentration that accompanies satipatthana rather than the concentration that accompanies samatha/the jhanas. In samatha, there is no discerning of *things [dhammas] as they actually are present*, since samatha generally has a concept/nimitta as its object, and the aim is the attainment of tranquillity by excluding all sense-door experiences. The second sutta is rather more complicated but, in brief, seems to refer to the development of understanding in one who is also developing samatha ('tranquillity' in the series of factors). I see no particular significance here as regards how Right Concentration is to be developed, other than, again, that it develops as understanding is developed. (BTW, the term 'prerequisite' in this translation is given as 'proximate cause' in the Bh Bodhi translation.) You suggest that it's better to actually start following the Buddha's instruction than to concern oneself with getting the theory right. I'm afraid I can't agree here. If the teachings are not correctly understood, I don't think the 'practice' can have any chance of being right. Simply following what we understand from a superficial reading of selected suttas, or what we are told by a 'teacher' to be the practice, does not seem to me either prudent or in accord with what the Buddha himself said on the subject. On the question of what the Buddha himself said, let me quote this passage from a sutta cited by Rob K in a post to Christine a few hours ago: Anguttara Nikaya, Chapter XX, Mahavaggo, The Great Chapter (1) Blessings "Brethren, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight. What four? …" The Buddha constantly reminded his followers of the need for frequent and repeated listening to the teachings, careful considering of what has been heard and applying to the present moment what has been considered and understood. This in fact *is* the practice. Jon PS Have you had a chance to look at the Upali Sutta I mentioned in my post to Howard? > > I'd be interested to know how you see the many lay followers who attained > > various stages of enlightenment, for example, Upali (Upali Sutta, M. 56, > > p.477 of MLDB, at p.485). ===================== Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 Samadhi Sutta -- Concentration Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." ===================== 14295 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Howard I thought your diagrammatic representation below to be an interesting way of presenting the sutta (probably comes naturally to a mathematician!). --- Howard wrote: > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - > It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what is > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara > Nikaya > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically, what is said there is the following: > > Sense control > -> > Virtue > -> > Right concentration > -> > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > -> > Revulsion and dispassion > -> > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite pivotal. > That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. I do not for a moment question the importance of Right Concentration (or of any of the 8 path factors for that matter). However, would you not agree that the sense control, virtue, concentration, knowledge and vision, etc, are to be developed concurrently, as far as that is possible in the individual case, each supporting the development of the other, and not in an exclusively sequential manner? Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before virtue. Jon 14296 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/13/02 9:58:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > I thought your diagrammatic representation below to be an interesting way > of presenting the sutta (probably comes naturally to a mathematician!). > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - > > It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what > is > > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara > > Nikaya > > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically, > what is said there is the following: > > > > Sense control > > -> > > Virtue > > -> > > Right concentration > > -> > > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > > -> > > Revulsion and dispassion > > -> > > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > > > The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite > pivotal. > > That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. > > I do not for a moment question the importance of Right Concentration (or > of any of the 8 path factors for that matter). > > However, would you not agree that the sense control, virtue, > concentration, knowledge and vision, etc, are to be developed > concurrently, as far as that is possible in the individual case, each > supporting the development of the other, and not in an exclusively > sequential manner? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would, indeed, agree with that. In fact, I picture bhavana (in its general sense) as proceeding rather like an ever-widening spiral, so that "later" factors developed in an interior portion of the spiral are conditions for "early" factors developed in more exterior portions (if you can envisage what I mean). This sutta happens to display certain basic conditionalities. I think it is important in that it shows the fundamental role that right concentration plays. It shows it as a condition for the arising of liberative wisdom, and, by doing so, it may serve as a cautionary note for any folks who might happen to downplay the importance of concentration at that formative stage of practice. -------------------------------------------------- > > Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before > Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before > virtue. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: That would be a great error. On that basis, one could never get started! ;-) This is exactly my point with regard to spiral development. A degree of sense control leads to a degree of virtue, ..., leads to a degree of wisdom, leads, yet again, to a further degree of sense control, etc, around and around, wider and wider. --------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14297 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth: More Translations Dear Sarah, Jon, and DSG Pali Friends In case you would like to read translations of some commentary Pali quotes left untranslated in my post "Syntax Shell ..", the following is my reply to Nina's request. Hope you find them useful. Suan -------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina How are you? Sorry for my late reply. Due to my ISP technical problems, I was not able to log on to the Internent since last Thursday night (11 July 2002). Only now I was able to log on to the Internet. Thank you for your kind comments. Here are the translations for the quotes in my post. 1."Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. Section 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa." The above commentary Pali refers to the following Pali original. "Ekamidaaham, bho gotama, samayam.." "Ekam idam aham, bho gotama, samayam..." "Once, Gotama, I .." Therefore, we could translate the commentary Pali as follows. In the phrase "Ekamidaaham", 'idam' is merely nipaata with no meaning here. The meaning of "ekamidaaham" would be "Once, I ...". 2. Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96 Paathika Atthakathaa. The above commentary Pali refers to the following Pali original. "manussesu ekidam sattaa vaºnºnavanto honti, ekidam sattaa dubbaºnºnaa." "Monks, among human beings, some beings are beautiful, some beings ugly". Therefore, we could trnaslate the commentary Pali as follows. In the phrase "Ekidam", 'idam is merely nipaata with no meaning here. The meaning of "Ekidam sattaa" would be "Some beings ..". Please notice that "eke" is unusual. It looks like the case of a plural object. So "one"'s plural would be "ones". Amazing! But, we need to translate "Eke" as "some" for natural English. With kind regards, Suan --- "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Sarah > > Thank you for mentioning "The Five Eyes" from Nina's post. > > In my translation of the fourth noble truth, though, I merely > regarded the eye as a synonym of the right view or the right seeing. > In fact, I rugarded all the five terms beginning with the eye as > synonyms of awakening because the Buddha was describing how he > discovered the four noble truths. > > With regards, > > Suan > > > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Dear Suan, > > > > Thank you for your translation and comments which I found very > helpful. > > > > >You could perform the "Syntax Walk- > > > through" on the translation. > > ..... > > I enjoy this form of 'walk-through' meditation';-) > > > > For `cakkhum' in "the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight > etc", > > you mention this is "cakkhu, the eye of awakening." > > > > I read this just before I read Nina's latest translation from the > Paramis > > which refers to the Cariyapitaka's account of the Bodhisatta's > > accumulation of the parami of giving. It mentions all the objects > he gives > > and these include "lamps so he might obtain the five eyes.". > > > > The footnote to the commentary (quoted by Nina) gives: > > > > "These five eyes are the fleshly eye, the divine eye by which he > sees the > > passing away and rebirth of beings, the wisdom eye, by which he > sees all > > dhammas with their characteristics and their conditions, the Buddha- > eye, > > by > > which he sees the dispositions of beings and the maturity of their > > faculties, and the universal eye, his knowledge of omniscience." > > > > I assume `cakkhum' in the 4th Noble Truth refers to the third one, > the > > `wisdom eye', although this probably doesn't apply as they are all > > referring to the Buddha's `five eyes'.....;-) > > > > Thanks, > > Sarah > > ===== > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends > > > > > > How are you? > > > > > > The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes > the > > > fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically > > > literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render > it in > > > as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax > Walk- > > > through" on the translation. > > > > > > I hope you find it useful. > > > > > > > > > "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, > > > bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, > > > ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko > > > udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa > > > ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… > > > udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa > > > ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu > > > tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa > > > udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. > > > > > > The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, > > > Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, > > > produced by Vipassana research Institute . > > > > > > > > > THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH > > > > > > Translated By Suan Lu Zaw > > > > > > Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the > light > > > occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is > the > > > noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The > eye, > > > the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me > on > > > the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that > noble > > > truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be > > > followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, > and > > > the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities > that, as > > > for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for > cessation of > > > misery has been accomplished. > > > > > > > > > GRAMMARTICAL NOTES > > > > > > Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of realities > > > This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" > in > > > the }odern context. > > > > > > Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of > > > occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard- of > > > realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis > here > > > is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had > occurred to > > > him, not on his ignorance of realities. > > > > > > Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening. > > > > > > Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The > > > Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the > > > subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight the > > > contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and > the > > > action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... should > be > > > followed through). > > > > > > Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the > > > observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble > truth > > > as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths. > > > > > > Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the > sound > > > effect. > > > > > > Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows. > > > > > > Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. > Section > > > 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa. > > > > > > Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section > 96 > > > Paathika Atthakathaa. > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Suan > > > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ 14298 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 0:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Dear Frank, Thank you for your very enjoyable, agreeable reply. Sukin will also be happy. But I find it also very informative, helps me to consider more the influence of food on the citta. Very practical. I shall print it out. But you have found out what is suitable for you, personally. I need cheese for calcium, and when I hike in the heat and perspire, my body needs salt. But I use too much, maybe not good? It is a habit of mine. What is power yoga? What is its goal? You speak about renunciation, and it may be of interest to you to hear what A. Sujin tells about this subject in her book on the perfections, also mentioning food. This made me think, and now I have also your post about food. I quote: Thank you Frank, Nina. > > Frank food is simple, nutritious, mostly raw > fruit/veggies and steamed veggies and sprouted > legumes/grains steamed. No oil, no sauce, a pinch of > salt and sometimes a pinch of curry to diversify > mineral and nutrient diversity, but not enough for > most people to actually realize there is any salt. My > diet is something that evolved over time to optimize > for nutrition and high performance yoga/meditation > (i.e. maximize energy, minimize sluggishness, > drowsiness, other undesirable side effects of rich > flavorful meals). These meals are delicious to me, but > not so stimulating that would encourage overeating. > Delicious taste is a natural biological resopnse to > guide us to satisfy nutrient requirements like sugar, > fat, minerals, etc. However, the refined, heavily > processed foods and extravagantly rich sauces has a > way of enticing desire and induce heavy overeating. By > eating simple, it's much easier to monitor the body's > feedback which naturally lets you know when it has > enough fat, sugar, salt, etc. > Some monks may actually appreciate what I eat, but > most monks, just as most people in the world would > find my typical meal an austere practice. Admittedly, > my food is not as flavorful and conventionally > delicious as typical food people eat, but the benefits > to energized physical and mental alertness is well > worth the trade off. And over time, the benefits are > so overwhelmingly clear that even the most delicious > dishes have very little allure to me anymore. Kind of > like how I still fully understand the gratification of > owning and driving an exotic sports car, but > understanding the dangers, I find the peace and > relaxation of renunciation is far preferable. > My experience when I do short repeats at a temple is > that it there is a tremendous difference in my > meditation from the diet in the temple > (delicious/spicy/oily) vs. my normal diet. Normal food > gives me cramps, gas, spiciness induced sharp pains in > body, sluggishness in my meditation if I eat a > sufficent amount to satisfy hunger. But if I don't eat > enough, to decrease the negative side effects, then I > slowly but systematically suffer loss of energy from > lack of good nutrition. 14299 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 0:57am Subject: Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Dear Jon, you wrote to Howard about meditation in texts and then mentioned the following: op 12-07-2002 15:27 schreef Jonothan Abbott op <>: And in the > case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the > seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts. > > If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as something > that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting for > the purpose. Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries this > implication for many readers. >> Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am > misinterpreted. I am of course not overlooking the fact that there were > many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while > 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting' > attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not 'sitting' > -- listening to the Buddha's discourses). And among the many monks in the > Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most (but > not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'. (BTW, I wonder > if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work out > the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).> end quote. N: Very interesting subject, Jon. I took out last night the "Psalms of the Brothers and Sisters" and began to look at a few of the Theris who attained enlightenment: Canto I, no 1, an anonymous sister: her curry burnt in the oven, it reminded her of impermanence and she became a non-returner. no. 17, Dhamma: returning from her alms round she lost her balance and fell. This reminded her of the Truth: "all the misery besetting this poor mortal frame" and she attained arahatship. No 23, Citta: she climbed in her old age Vulture's Peak, her bowl overturned, and she leaned agains a rock. She attained arahatship. You remember the shady place on top near a rock where we could sit and rest. Then we saw A. Sujin being carried up in a chair, Khun Santi was helping her, because she had some trouble with her leg. no. 47, Patacara: she had lost chidren and husband. The trickling water and the fading light of the lamp reminded her of impermanence and she became an arahat. I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances also of attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of Dhamma. But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of daily life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have so many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better use of them. Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life, with appreciation, Nina. 14300 From: Ruth Klein Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 1:31am Subject: anyone in Southern CA (SD area)? I just found out that my ride from the SD airport to Wat Metta has fallen through (my friend will be in New Jersey!). Is there anyone in the area who might be willing to drop me off/pick me up (and get a chance to go visit the monestary for a day)? I could take an airport van, but that would really cut into my rather tight student budget. Ruth 14301 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 11:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Hi, Nina (and Jon) - In a message dated 7/13/02 12:58:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Dear Jon, > you wrote to Howard about meditation in texts and then mentioned the > following: > > op 12-07-2002 15:27 schreef Jonothan Abbott op <>: > And in the > > case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the > > seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts. > > > > If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as > something > > that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting for > > the purpose. Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries this > > implication for many readers. > >> Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am > > misinterpreted. I am of course not overlooking the fact that there were > > many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while > > 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting' > > attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not 'sitting' > > -- listening to the Buddha's discourses). And among the many monks in > the > > Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most (but > > not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'. (BTW, I wonder > > if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work out > > the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).> end quote. > > N: Very interesting subject, Jon. I took out last night the "Psalms of the > Brothers and Sisters" and began to look at a few of the Theris who attained > enlightenment: > > Canto I, no 1, an anonymous sister: her curry burnt in the oven, it > reminded > her of impermanence and she became a non-returner. > no. 17, Dhamma: returning from her alms round she lost her balance and > fell. > This reminded her of the Truth: "all the misery besetting this poor mortal > frame" and she attained arahatship. > No 23, Citta: she climbed in her old age Vulture's Peak, her bowl > overturned, and she leaned agains a rock. She attained arahatship. > You remember the shady place on top near a rock where we could sit and > rest. > Then we saw A. Sujin being carried up in a chair, Khun Santi was helping > her, because she had some trouble with her leg. > no. 47, Patacara: she had lost chidren and husband. The trickling water and > the fading light of the lamp reminded her of impermanence and she became an > arahat. > > I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances also > of > attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of Dhamma. > But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for > aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of daily > life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have so > many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better use > of them. > Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life, > with appreciation, > Nina. > ================================ One comes across very similar stories in the Zen tradition, such as someone becoming enlightened after a stone chip sharply hits a bamboo, or a bowl breaks upon falling to the ground. It is like a sudden breeze causing a ripe fruit to fall from the tree. An unripe fruit would not fall even in a typhoon, but a ripe fruit falls easily. Much ripening has to come first, much cultivation.To mix metaphors, the wind is just the final straw to break the camel's back. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14302 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:34am Subject: kamma? Cause and effect -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His name was Fleming, and he was a poor Scottish farmer. One day, while trying to make a living for his family, he heard a cry for help coming from a nearby bog. He dropped his tools and ran to the bog. There, mired to his waist in black muck, was a terrified boy, screaming and struggling to free himself. Farmer Fleming saved the lad from what could have been a slow and terrifying death. The next day, a fancy carriage pulled up to the Scottsman's sparse surroundings. An elegantly dressed nobleman stepped out and introduced himself as the father of the boy Farmer Fleming had saved. "I want to repay you," said the nobleman. "You saved my son's life." "No, I can't accept payment for what I did," the Scottish farmer replied, waving off the offer. At that moment, the farmer's own son came to the door of the family hovel. "Is that your son?" the nobleman asked. "Yes," the farmer replied proudly. "I'll make you a deal. Let me provide him with the level of education my son will enjoy. If the lad is anything like his father, he'll no doubt grow to be a man we both will be proud of." And that he did. Farmer Fleming's son attended the very best schools and in time, he graduated from St. Mary's Hospital Medical School in London, and went on to become known throughout the world as the noted Sir Alexander Fleming, the discoverer of Penicillin. Years afterward, the same nobleman's son who was saved from the bog was stricken with pneumonia. What saved his life this time? Penicillin. The name of the nobleman? Lord Randolph Churchill. His son's name? Sir Winston Churchill. 14303 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 6:01am Subject: Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi Jon, Thank you, Jon, for replying. Best wishes with the practice. Regards, Victor --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > Howard, Jon, and all, > … > > I don't want to argue with you, Jon, whether the attainment of jhanas > > is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. Right concentration > > is part of Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha pointed out the Path, > > and it is really up to us to follow it. Jon, instead of trying to > > prove or figure out whether attainment of jhana is necessary for > > enlightenment, I think it would be more beneficial to follow the > > Buddha's instruction to develop right concentration, along with other > > factors in the Path. > > You might be interested in the following discourses > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html > > I of course agree that Right Concentration is a factor of the Noble > Eightfold Path. However, I think you and I disagree as to just what that > means. > > You understand that, since Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path > is described in terms of the jhanas, it means that Right Concentration is > developed by developing samatha/the jhanas, and that this may be done > independently of the other 7 factors. > > I understand it to mean that Right Concentration is the concentration that > arises together with the other 7 path factors at a moment of path > consciousness, and accordingly that Right Concentration is developed by > developing satipatthana, which is also known as the mundane path. > > So we are not about to agree on anything just now ;-)) > > Many thanks for the sutta references. In the first of these (copied > below, because it is quite short), the Buddha encourages the development > of that concentration by which a monk 'discerns things as they actually > are present'. To my way of thinking, this is a description of the > concentration that accompanies satipatthana rather than the concentration > that accompanies samatha/the jhanas. In samatha, there is no discerning > of *things [dhammas] as they actually are present*, since samatha > generally has a concept/nimitta as its object, and the aim is the > attainment of tranquillity by excluding all sense-door experiences. > > The second sutta is rather more complicated but, in brief, seems to refer > to the development of understanding in one who is also developing samatha > ('tranquillity' in the series of factors). I see no particular > significance here as regards how Right Concentration is to be developed, > other than, again, that it develops as understanding is developed. (BTW, > the term 'prerequisite' in this translation is given as 'proximate cause' > in the Bh Bodhi translation.) > > You suggest that it's better to actually start following the Buddha's > instruction than to concern oneself with getting the theory right. I'm > afraid I can't agree here. If the teachings are not correctly understood, > I don't think the 'practice' can have any chance of being right. Simply > following what we understand from a superficial reading of selected > suttas, or what we are told by a 'teacher' to be the practice, does not > seem to me either prudent or in accord with what the Buddha himself said > on the subject. > > On the question of what the Buddha himself said, let me quote this passage > from a sutta cited by Rob K in a post to Christine a few hours ago: > > Anguttara Nikaya, Chapter XX, Mahavaggo, The Great Chapter > (1) Blessings > "Brethren, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the > ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the > mind and penetration of the Norm through insight. What four? …" > > The Buddha constantly reminded his followers of the need for frequent and > repeated listening to the teachings, careful considering of what has been > heard and applying to the present moment what has been considered and > understood. This in fact *is* the practice. > > Jon > > PS Have you had a chance to look at the Upali Sutta I mentioned in my > post to Howard? > > > I'd be interested to know how you see the many lay followers who > attained > > > various stages of enlightenment, for example, Upali (Upali Sutta, M. > 56, > > > p.477 of MLDB, at p.485). > > ===================== > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 > Samadhi Sutta -- Concentration > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they > actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... > 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... > 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on > eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as > neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... > 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is > inconstant"... > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is > inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is > inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in > dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, > or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as > they actually are present." 14304 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:12am Subject: Question? Hi All, I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 1023 '30 Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas. Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And why would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the company of these egg-born supannas? Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali Text Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon. metta, Christine 14305 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:22am Subject: Re: Question? --- Dear Christine, The are many types of being in this universe, most of which we cannot see. I think suppanas are supposed to be very powerful birdlike creatures that fight with nagas - who are snake like creatures. It is not considered especially good kamma to be born as one of these, but some people may wish to because of the supernormal powers that these beings are said to have. As the commentary notes that Buddha taught these suttas so that those bhikkhus would give up their desire for this type of birth. Robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 1023 '30 > Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas. > Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And why > would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu > desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the company > of these egg-born supannas? > Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali Text > Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon. > > metta, > Christine 14306 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:42am Subject: Re: Question? Thanks Robert. As you say, the Buddha teaches that we live in this world surrounded by Unseen beings of various types. The next two discourses are about Devas of the Gandhabba order who dwell in fragrant roots, heartwood, soft-wood, bark, shoots, leaves flowers, fruits, sap and scents, and Devas of the Cloud- dwelling order (Cool-Cloud Devas, Warm-Cloud Devas, Storm-Cloud Devas, Wind-Cloud Devas, and Rain-Cloud Devas). p1025 p1028 How delightful! Ummm.... As I'm looking into rebirth at the moment, and seeking to discover that what the Buddha taught was exactly what he said and he wasn't using poetic language or metaphor, or going along with Folk beliefs so as not to shock the everyday person....I'll just ask this straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this sound a little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?' Pixies and elves and gnomes, only perhaps more powerful? It seems that people who lived at that time had experience of the Devas. Has anyone in modern times experienced or seen such beings? If not, I wonder why not? metta, Christine --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > The are many types of being in this universe, most of which we > cannot see. I think suppanas are supposed to be very powerful > birdlike creatures that fight with nagas - who are snake like > creatures. It is not considered especially good kamma to be born as > one of these, but some people may wish to because of the supernormal > powers that these beings are said to have. > As the commentary notes that Buddha taught these suttas so that > those bhikkhus would give up their desire for this type of birth. > Robert > > "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page > 1023 '30 > > Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas. > > Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And > why > > would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu > > desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the > company > > of these egg-born supannas? > > Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali > Text > > Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon. > > > > metta, > > Christine 14307 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:57am Subject: Re: Question? --- Aghh! I'm shocked: Chris:"I'll just ask this > straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this sound a > little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?'"" I haven't seen any devas or petas or ghosts - not once. But what convinces me it is all true is the size of the universe and that it is all recorded in the texts. They scriptures are so accurate when it comes to describing what is real in this fathom lenght body - I now know things to be true about that, that I couldn't have imagined before learning the Dhamma. It seems impossible for me to believe that in this vast universe the only beings that exist happen to be the ones I can see - humans and animals - a very one-dimensional, earthcentric view I feel. Sometimes there are trivial points in the commentaries that I wonder about, but rarely. And it is peripheral to the main issues - for me I have no desire to be born as a naga or suppana. robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks Robert. > > > As you say, the Buddha teaches that we live in this world surrounded > by Unseen beings of various types. > The next two discourses are about Devas of the Gandhabba order who > dwell in fragrant roots, heartwood, soft-wood, bark, shoots, > leaves flowers, fruits, sap and scents, and Devas of the Cloud- > dwelling order (Cool-Cloud Devas, Warm-Cloud Devas, Storm-Cloud > Devas, Wind-Cloud Devas, and Rain-Cloud Devas). p1025 p1028 > How delightful! > Ummm.... As I'm looking into rebirth at the moment, and seeking to > discover that what the Buddha taught was exactly what he said and he > wasn't using poetic language or metaphor, or going along with Folk > beliefs so as not to shock the everyday person....I'll just ask this > straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this sound a > little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?' Pixies and elves > and gnomes, only perhaps more powerful? It seems that people who > lived at that time had experience of the Devas. Has anyone in modern > times experienced or seen such beings? If not, I wonder why not? > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear Christine, > > The are many types of being in this universe, most of which we > > cannot see. I think suppanas are supposed to be very powerful > > birdlike creatures that fight with nagas - who are snake like > > creatures. It is not considered especially good kamma to be born as > > one of these, but some people may wish to because of the > supernormal > > powers that these beings are said to have. > > As the commentary notes that Buddha taught these suttas so that > > those bhikkhus would give up their desire for this type of birth. > > Robert > > > > "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page > > 1023 '30 > > > Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas. > > > Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And > > why > > > would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu > > > desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the > > company > > > of these egg-born supannas? > > > Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali > > Text > > > Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon. > > > > > > metta, > > > Christine 14308 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:27am Subject: Re: Question? Dear Robert and All, All very well to joke about being shocked.... :) After a few experiences on different lists, I'm beginning to feel that posting messages can be like walking on quicksand. So I fluctuate between apologising in advance for nothing much, and jumping in like a bull in a china shop. That should probably be 'cow'. :) This quoted paragraph was just below something I was reading on rebirth, and caught my eye. Would it be fair to say that this could be an explanation of why, for instance, members of this list found their way here and feel comfortable with all the others here? Would 'elements' be equivalent to 'accumulations'? On p638 of Volume 1 of The Samyutta Nikaya 'The Book of Causation 14 Dhatusamyutta "14 (4) " At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, it is by way of elements that beings come together and unite. Those of an inferior disposition come together and unite with those of an inferior disposition; those of a good disposition come together and unite with those of a good disposition. In the past, by way of elements, beings came together and united...... In the future, too, by way of elements, beings will come together and unite...... Now, too, at present, by way of elements, beings come together and unite with those of an inferior disposition; those of a good disposition come together and unite with those of a good disposition." metta, Chris --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Aghh! I'm shocked: > Chris:"I'll just ask this > > straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this > sound a > > little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?'"" > > I haven't seen any devas or petas or ghosts - not once. But what > convinces me it is all true is the size of the universe and that it > is all recorded in the texts. They scriptures are so accurate when > it comes to describing what is real in this fathom lenght body - I > now know things to be true about that, that I couldn't have imagined > before learning the Dhamma. > It seems impossible for me to believe that in this vast universe the > only beings that exist happen to be the ones I can see - humans and > animals - a very one-dimensional, earthcentric view I feel. > Sometimes there are trivial points in the commentaries that I wonder > about, but rarely. And it is peripheral to the main issues - for me > I have no desire to be born as a naga or suppana. > robert > > "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Thanks Robert. > > > > > > As you say, the Buddha teaches that we live in this world > surrounded > > by Unseen beings of various types. > > The next two discourses are about Devas of the Gandhabba order who > > dwell in fragrant roots, heartwood, soft-wood, bark, shoots, > > leaves flowers, fruits, sap and scents, and Devas of the Cloud- > > dwelling order (Cool-Cloud Devas, Warm-Cloud Devas, Storm-Cloud > > Devas, Wind-Cloud Devas, and Rain-Cloud Devas). p1025 p1028 > > How delightful! > > Ummm.... As I'm looking into rebirth at the moment, and seeking > to > > discover that what the Buddha taught was exactly what he said and > he > > wasn't using poetic language or metaphor, or going along with Folk > > beliefs so as not to shock the everyday person....I'll just ask > this > > straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this > sound a > > little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?' Pixies and > elves > > and gnomes, only perhaps more powerful? It seems that people who > > lived at that time had experience of the Devas. Has anyone in > modern > > times experienced or seen such beings? If not, I wonder why not? > > > > metta, > > Christine > > 14309 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:47am Subject: Sutta References about Rebirth Dear Group, I've found the following references to Rebirth(Punabbhava) or Re- becoming (Upapatti). Perhaps they may be useful to some of you. I'm sure there are lots more references, but I only looked until I had no more doubt that the Blessed One taught re-birth as an actual fact, not as poetical metaphor, or as a 'kindness' to the uneducated or superstitious of his time. Hope there are no errors in attribution, or keyboard errors. Though I looked these up in hard copy, some may be available on line at either: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm http://www.tipitaka.net/home/sitemap.htm http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html In addition, there are those suttas and other writings mentioned in this previous message and in the replies listed at its foot. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14273 metta, Chris The Digha Nikaya "There are some people in the West who are attracted in many ways to Buddhism, but who find the idea of rebirth a stumbling-block, either because they find it distasteful and/or incredible in itself, or in some cases because they find it hard to reconcile with the 'non-self' idea. Some such considerations as any of these sometimes even lead people to declare that the Buddha did not actually teach rebirth at all, or that if he did so, this was only for popular consumption, because his hearers could not have accepted the truth. All such views are based on various kinds of misunderstanding. It should be noted, incidentally, that Buddhists prefer to speak, not of reincarnation, but of rebirth. Reincarnation is the doctrine that there is a transmigrating soul or spirit that passes on from life to life. In the Buddhist view we may say, to begin with, that that is merely what appears to happen, though in reality no such soul or spirit passes on in this way. In Majjhima Nikaya 38 the monk Sati was severely rebuked for declaring that 'this very consciousness' transmigrates, whereas in reality a new consciusness arises at rebirth dependent on the old. Nevertheless there is an illusion of continuity in much the same wayas there is within this life. Rebirth from life to life is in principle scarcely different from the rebirth from moment to moment that goes on in this life. The point can be intellectually grasped, with a greater or less degree of difficulty, but it is only at the first path-moment, with the penetration of the spurious nature of what we call self, that it is clearly undersood without a shadow of doubt remaining." p. 36 "The Long Discourses of the Buddha" - A translation of the Digha Nikaya by Maurice Walshe. DN 12.13 'Lohicca Sutta: About Lohicca' Good and Bad Teachers. DN 16.2.6ff 'Mahaparinibbana Sutta The Great Passing' The Buddha's Last Days DN 18.1ff 'Janavasabha Sutta: About Janavasabha' Brahma Addresses the Gods DN 23.2ff 'Payasi Sutta: About Payasi' Debate with a Sceptic DN 28.5 'Sampasadaniya Sutta: Serene Faith' DN 33.1.10(40)(41)'Sangiti Sutta: The Chanting Together' DN 33.3.1(7) Majjhima Nikaya "According to the Buddha's teaching, all beings except the arahants are subject to "renewal of being in the future" (punabbhava), that is, to rebirth. Rebirth, in the Buddhist conception, is not transmigration of a self or soul but the continuation of a process, a flux of becoming in which successive lives are linked together by causal transmissioin of influence rather than by substantial identity. The basic causal pattern underlying the process is that defined by the teaching of dependent origination, which also demonstrates how rebirth is possible without a reincarnating self. The process of rebirth, the Buddha teaches, exhibits a definite lawfulness essentially ethical in character. This ethical character is established by the fundamental dynamism that determines the states into which beings are reborn and the circumstances they encounter in the course of their lives. That dynamism is 'kamma', volitional action of body, speech, and mind. Those beings who engage in bad actions - actions motivated by the three unwholesome roots of greed, hate, and delusion - generate unwholesome kamma that leads them to rebirth into lower states of existence and, if it ripens in the human world, brings them pain and misfortune. Those beings who engage in good actions - actions motivated by the three wholesome roots of non- greed, non-hate, and non-delusion - generate wholesome kamma that leads them to higher states of existence and ripens in the human world as pleasure and good fortune. Because the deeds a person performs in the course of a single life can be extremely varied, the type of rebirth that lies ahead of him can be very unpredictable, as the Buddha shows in MN 136. But despite this empirical variability, an invariable law governs the direct relationship between types of actions and the types of results they yield, the basic correlations being sketched by the Buddha in MN 57 and laid out in greater detail in MN 135." (p.45 'The Middle Length Discourses of the'. A New translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. Translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi.) MN 4.29 'Bhayabherava Sutta' Fear and Dread MN 7.2 'Vatthupama Sutta' Simile of the Cloth MN 12.37ff 'Mahasihanada Sutta' The Greater Discourse on the Lion's Roar MN 13.15 Mahadukkhakkhandha Sutta 'The Greater Discourse on the Mass of Suffering' MN 40.3 'Cula-Assapura Sutta' The Shorter Discourse at Assapura MN 41.4ff 'Saleyyaka Sutta' The Brahmins of Sala MN 41.15ff MN 45.3 'Culadhammasamadana Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on Ways of Undertaking Things MN 45.5 MN 45.6ff MN 46.14 'Mahadhammasamadana Sutta' The Greater Discourse on Ways of Undertaking Things MN 46.16ff MN 50.13 'Maratajjaniya Sutta' The Rebuke to Mara MN 50.17 MN 57.3 'Kukkuravatika Sutta' The Dog-duty Ascetic MN 57.5 MN 60.9ff 'Apannaka Sutta' The Incontrovertible Teaching MN 60.12ff MN 72.16ff ' Aggivacchagotta Sutta' To Vacchagotta on Fire MN 84.6 'Madhura Sutta' At Madhura MN 84.7 MN 110.13 'Culapunnama Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on the Full-moon Night MN 110.24 MN 115.17 'Bahadhatuka Sutta' The Many Kind of Elements' MN 120.2ff 'Sankahrupapatti Sutta' Reappearance by Aspiration MN 120.37 MN 127.9 'Anuruddha Sutta' Anuruddha MN 129.6 'Balapandita Sutta' Fools and Wise Men MN 129.31 MN 130.2ff 'Devaduta Sutta' The Divine Messengers MN 135.5ff 'Culakammavibhanga Sutta' The Shorter Exposition of Action MN 136.8 'Mahakammavibhanga Sutta' The Greater Exposition of Action The Samyutta Nikaya Volume One Page 184 SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 19.(9) Childless Page 185-8 SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 21 (1) Persons Page 614-615 SN ''The Book of Causation (Nidanavagga)' 70 (10)(ii) Susima Page 638 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga)13 (3) Dhatusamyutta Page 674 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga) 9 Kassapasamyutta Page 1021-29 SN 'The Book of the Aggregates(Khandhavagga) Volume Two Page 1287-89 SN 'The Connected Discourses on Women' 37 Matugamasamyutta Page 1333-38 SN 'The Connected Discourses to Headmen' 42 Gamanisamyutta Page 1392-93 SN 'The Book of the Six Sense Bases' Salayatanavagga Page 1878-79 SN 'The Great Book (Mahavagga)' Saccasamyutta Page 1885-88 SN 'The Great Book' Saccasamyutta - 102(1)ff Passing Away.... 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha - An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya' by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi III.41 'The Refinement of the Mind - 1' IV.77 'The Jhanas and Rebirth' IV.89 'Queen Mallika' IV.90 'Four Kinds of Kamma' V.100 'The Benefits of Almsgiving' V.101 'Five Desirable Things' VI.123 'Don't Judge Others!' VII.143 'Seven Bonds of Sexuality' VIII.163 'Rebirth on account of Giving' VIII.164 'Ways of Meritorious Action' X.205 'The Extinction of Kamma' 14310 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:52am Subject: Re: Question? --- I think one hundred percent right, Chris. Yes, those who think this way do so because of accumulations in the near and distant past - and those who think in other ways because of different accumulations. Everyone is unique in their accumulations but there are broad areas where we (may) have similar ones, and so we of like elements congregate. robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert and All, > > All very well to joke about being shocked.... :) After a few > experiences on different lists, I'm beginning to feel that posting > messages can be like walking on quicksand. So I fluctuate between > apologising in advance for nothing much, and jumping in like a bull > in a china shop. That should probably be 'cow'. :) > > This quoted paragraph was just below something I was reading on > rebirth, and caught my eye. Would it be fair to say that this could > be an explanation of why, for instance, members of this list found > their way here and feel comfortable with all the others here? > Would 'elements' be equivalent to 'accumulations'? > > On p638 of Volume 1 of The Samyutta Nikaya 'The Book of Causation 14 > Dhatusamyutta > > "14 (4) " At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, it is by way of elements that > beings come together and unite. Those of an inferior disposition > come together and unite with those of an inferior disposition; those > of a good disposition come together and unite with those of a good > disposition. In the past, by way of elements, beings came together > and united...... In the future, too, by way of elements, beings will > come together and unite...... Now, too, at present, by way of > elements, beings come together and unite with those of an inferior > disposition; those of a good disposition come together and unite with > those of a good disposition." > > metta, > Chris > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Aghh! I'm shocked: > > Chris:"I'll just ask this > > > straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this > > sound a > > > little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?'"" > > > > I haven't seen any devas or petas or ghosts - not once. But what > > convinces me it is all true is the size of the universe and that it > > is all recorded in the texts. They scriptures are so accurate when > > it comes to describing what is real in this fathom lenght body - I > > now know things to be true about that, that I couldn't have > imagined > > before learning the Dhamma. > > It seems impossible for me to believe that in this vast universe > the > > only beings that exist happen to be the ones I can see - humans and > > animals - a very one-dimensional, earthcentric view I feel. > > Sometimes there are trivial points in the commentaries that I > wonder > > about, but rarely. And it is peripheral to the main issues - for me > > I have no desire to be born as a naga or suppana. > > robert > > > > "christine_forsyth" > wrote: 14311 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Hi Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > What is power yoga? What is its goal? Thanks for the excerpt from Sujin's Perfections. Excellent point about renunciation only being truly effective from the raw sensory level at guarding the sense doors and not grasping to sensory experience as delightful, disagreeable, I, mine... I don't recall mentioning anything about Power yoga, but since you ask... Power yoga is a modern derivative of Astanga Yoga. It preserves the idea of strength and stamina built from strenuous exercise, but loses much of the important/crucial subtle aspects of Astanga Yoga such as bandha control, pranayama (breathing techniques), gaze, opening the nadis, etc. Basically a McYoga version of Astanga that satisfies western mainstream's diluted expectations (physical health) of yoga. Astanga Yoga is Hindu's version of an eightfold path, a complete spiritual path not just physical exercise, which shares several common themes with the Buddhist 8fold path. My reason for practicing astanga is for the benefits it brings to physical health (from a holistic perspective, not just western notion of physical health) health to complement the mental culture path from Buddhism. Some spiritual practitioners who only develop the mind and neglect their physical health develop higher states of concentration and consciousness, only to suffer from permanent psychosis and hallucinations. The astangis and taoist yogis believe in strenghtening the body sufficiently so that when qi channels, chakras, start opening, kundalini awakening, the body is strong enough to handle it when the supernormal stuff from jhanas start to happen with corresponding physiological changes. -fk 14312 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rebirth --- christine_forsyth wrote: > I had always accepted incessant rebirth > as > unquestionedly a Buddhist Doctrine - but reading > messages on a multi- > tradition list, and also on other Theravada lists, > has given me a > shock. Very large numbers of western Buddhists > regard rebirth merely > as a poetic way of expressing the process of > awakening, and regard > awakening itself as being a metaphor for the > continuous process of > overcoming ignorance. They either reject the > orthodox view of rebirth > totally or are agnostic. So I feel a need to verify > that the Buddha > specifically taught rebirth, and that he meant > actual rebirth not > using the term as a metaphor for something else. I can respect the people who are honest enough to admit that they don't believe the Buddha on rebirth yet still find the rest of his teachings useful. Fair enough. Rebirth sounds pretty incredible. But the theory that rebirth was used by Buddha as metaphor is ridiculous. Anyone with average intelligence who reads the pali suttas can see that the Buddha is consistently speaking in a plain, straightforward manner. No trickiness or artful white lies. Not his style. Analogies and similes are EXPLICITLY explained when used, not left ambiguously open to fanciful interpretation. Rebirth is just as hard for people to believe as Anatta, and if the Buddha had no problem speaking plainly on Anatta, why would he suddenly worry about hurting people's feelings or become a tricky guy using metaphors to preserve people's cultural beliefs? Anatta is far more shocking than rebirth! If he's not pulling punches there, he's not going to be pulling punches on rebirth. The only rational conclusion we can come to if we desbelieve rebirth is: 1) buddha is wrong about rebirth 2) buddha's stance on rebirth was modified or incorrectly recorded by compilers of the canon. The idea of buddha using rebirth as metaphor is the completely ignorant and delusional reaction of those who revere the Buddha and decide to modify it to conform to their own fantasy of a coherent religion. It's ok to not believe Buddha. It's ok to doubt the validity of the canon. If you think you're enlightened, start your own religion which has no rebirth. That's fine. But it's not ok to distort and propogate a religion to suit your personal fancy. There's already enough confusion about what is and is not Buddhism. -fk 14313 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 3:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rebirth Hi Frank, Thanks for this post, which came with a strong dose of common sense. I often feel it isn't rebirth so much, but kamma that scares some people, and the only way to enfeeble kamma is to alter, scramble, and change the meaning of what the Buddha taught on rebirth, then one can alter, scramble and change the meaning of kamma. If there is only this very life, then there are just the usual legal limits to abide by on behaviour, and pretty much no restraints on speech. The fact is that irrespective of what people know, or don't know, whether or not the teachings of a Buddha are extant - the inexorable and unpitying working out of the natural laws of existence rolls on. metta, Chris --- frank kuan wrote: > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > I had always accepted incessant rebirth > > as > > unquestionedly a Buddhist Doctrine - but reading > > messages on a multi- > > tradition list, and also on other Theravada lists, > > has given me a > > shock. Very large numbers of western Buddhists > > regard rebirth merely > > as a poetic way of expressing the process of > > awakening, and regard > > awakening itself as being a metaphor for the > > continuous process of > > overcoming ignorance. They either reject the > > orthodox view of rebirth > > totally or are agnostic. So I feel a need to verify > > that the Buddha > > specifically taught rebirth, and that he meant > > actual rebirth not > > using the term as a metaphor for something else. > > I can respect the people who are honest enough to > admit that they don't believe the Buddha on rebirth > yet still find the rest of his teachings useful. Fair > enough. Rebirth sounds pretty incredible. But the > theory that rebirth was used by Buddha as metaphor is > ridiculous. Anyone with average intelligence who reads > the pali suttas can see that the Buddha is > consistently speaking in a plain, straightforward > manner. No trickiness or artful white lies. Not his > style. Analogies and similes are EXPLICITLY explained > when used, not left ambiguously open to fanciful > interpretation. Rebirth is just as hard for people to > believe as Anatta, and if the Buddha had no problem > speaking plainly on Anatta, why would he suddenly > worry about hurting people's feelings or become a > tricky guy using metaphors to preserve people's > cultural beliefs? Anatta is far more shocking than > rebirth! If he's not pulling punches there, he's not > going to be pulling punches on rebirth. > The only rational conclusion we can come to if we > desbelieve rebirth is: > 1) buddha is wrong about rebirth > 2) buddha's stance on rebirth was modified or > incorrectly recorded by compilers of the canon. > > The idea of buddha using rebirth as metaphor is the > completely ignorant and delusional reaction of those > who revere the Buddha and decide to modify it to > conform to their own fantasy of a coherent religion. > It's ok to not believe Buddha. It's ok to doubt the > validity of the canon. If you think you're > enlightened, start your own religion which has no > rebirth. That's fine. But it's not ok to distort and > propogate a religion to suit your personal fancy. > There's already enough confusion about what is and is > not Buddhism. > > -fk 14314 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics Dear Larry, I just have a few remarks. op 13-07-2002 03:02 schreef <> op <>: > L: First, what we are talking about is body consciousness, a nama. Body > consciousness is different from the other physical senses in that it can > experience pleasure and pain while seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting > can only experience neutral feeling. N: bodyconscsiouness does not experience pleasure and pain, it only experiences hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. It is accompanied by feeling, pleasant or unpleasant which also experiences the same objects as body-consciousness. Seeing does not experience feeling, it only sees, experiences visible object, but it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. > L: One other thing of interest, the pleasantness of a pleasant taste is > actually a pleasant mental feeling. N: Shall we say, it conditions pleasant mental feeling? It could not be the same, because when speaking about taste, pleasant or unpleasant, we speak about rupa. L: Also, 5-door feelings are results of kamma and mind door feelings > motivate kamma. N: You remember tadarammana citta, registering-consciousness, which is vipakacitta, this can arise in a mind-door process. It hangs on to the object. We oculd not say that feeling motivates kamma. Volition or intention is kamma, and it is accompanied by feeling which just feels, nothing else. Best wishes, from Nina. 14315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth. Dear Ruth, It is as Robert said, leave it to conditions. Rob: N:It depends on kamma who is on our path, and whether this is agreeable or disagreeable. Our reactions again are also conditioned by other factors: our accumulated inclinations, good or bad. It may seem that we can plan this or that or that parents plan for us, but in reality there are only conditioned phenomena rolling on. You may say, I shall marry, but you may not, or the opposite may happen. It only seems that we can act or plan, but in reality this is not so. There were many worries in the past, and these are gone now. There are worries today, but then these pass as well. When tomorrow has come you may laugh about today's problems. Past lives, the present life, future lives, we are in the cycle of birth and death, and thus we have to have dukkha, suffering. But understanding can be developed. Not the outward circumstances are important, these are not the real problems, but our attitude: we make the problems, but understanding can be developed, that is the remedy. You use the word student, a good word, we are students of realities. In the first sutta of the M.S. you are reading, we read about a monk who is a learner: even enlightened ones who are not yet arahats are learners, sekha, or trainees. The arahat has nothing more to learn, he is asekha. For us: we are only beginning to study. Let us study on, Nina. op 13-07-2002 00:15 schreef Ruth Klein op Ruth: In addition, though I am > happy whith where I am in life, I very easily get caught up in the idea of > finding some 'special' person with whom to share my life. Quite often I > can't tell if it's truely my own desire, or a societal/parental pressure. I > feel most lonely when I'm trying to separate what is real from what is > conditioned thought and my mind is not often quiet enough to find out. 14316 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rebirth Hi, Frank - My sentiments exactly. With metta, Howard > I can respect the people who are honest enough to > admit that they don't believe the Buddha on rebirth > yet still find the rest of his teachings useful. Fair > enough. Rebirth sounds pretty incredible. But the > theory that rebirth was used by Buddha as metaphor is > ridiculous. Anyone with average intelligence who reads > the pali suttas can see that the Buddha is > consistently speaking in a plain, straightforward > manner. No trickiness or artful white lies. Not his > style. Analogies and similes are EXPLICITLY explained > when used, not left ambiguously open to fanciful > interpretation. Rebirth is just as hard for people to > believe as Anatta, and if the Buddha had no problem > speaking plainly on Anatta, why would he suddenly > worry about hurting people's feelings or become a > tricky guy using metaphors to preserve people's > cultural beliefs? Anatta is far more shocking than > rebirth! If he's not pulling punches there, he's not > going to be pulling punches on rebirth. > The only rational conclusion we can come to if we > desbelieve rebirth is: > 1) buddha is wrong about rebirth > 2) buddha's stance on rebirth was modified or > incorrectly recorded by compilers of the canon. > > The idea of buddha using rebirth as metaphor is the > completely ignorant and delusional reaction of those > who revere the Buddha and decide to modify it to > conform to their own fantasy of a coherent religion. > It's ok to not believe Buddha. It's ok to doubt the > validity of the canon. If you think you're > enlightened, start your own religion which has no > rebirth. That's fine. But it's not ok to distort and > propogate a religion to suit your personal fancy. > There's already enough confusion about what is and is > not Buddhism. > > -fk > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14317 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth A fine and useful piece of work. Many thanks! With metta, Visakha At 03:47 AM 7/14/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Group, > >I've found the following references to Rebirth(Punabbhava) or Re- >becoming (Upapatti). Perhaps they may be useful to some of you. I'm >sure there are lots more references, but I only looked until I had no >more doubt that the Blessed One taught re-birth as an actual fact, >not as poetical metaphor, or as a 'kindness' to the uneducated or >superstitious of his time. Hope there are no errors in attribution, >or keyboard errors. Though I looked these up in hard copy, some may >be available on line at either: >http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm >http://www.tipitaka.net/home/sitemap.htm >http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/ >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html >In addition, there are those suttas and other writings mentioned in >this previous message and in the replies listed at its foot. >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14273 > >metta, >Chris > >The Digha Nikaya > >"There are some people in the West who are attracted in many ways to >Buddhism, but who find the idea of rebirth a stumbling-block, either >because they find it distasteful and/or incredible in itself, or in >some cases because they find it hard to reconcile with the 'non-self' >idea. Some such considerations as any of these sometimes even lead >people to declare that the Buddha did not actually teach rebirth at >all, or that if he did so, this was only for popular consumption, >because his hearers could not have accepted the truth. All such >views are based on various kinds of misunderstanding. It should be >noted, incidentally, that Buddhists prefer to speak, not of >reincarnation, but of rebirth. Reincarnation is the doctrine that >there is a transmigrating soul or spirit that passes on from life to >life. In the Buddhist view we may say, to begin with, that that is >merely what appears to happen, though in reality no such soul or >spirit passes on in this way. In Majjhima Nikaya 38 the monk Sati >was severely rebuked for declaring that 'this very consciousness' >transmigrates, whereas in reality a new consciusness arises at >rebirth dependent on the old. Nevertheless there is an illusion of >continuity in much the same wayas there is within this life. Rebirth >from life to life is in principle scarcely different from the rebirth >from moment to moment that goes on in this life. The point can be >intellectually grasped, with a greater or less degree of difficulty, >but it is only at the first path-moment, with the penetration of the >spurious nature of what we call self, that it is clearly undersood >without a shadow of doubt remaining." >p. 36 "The Long Discourses of the Buddha" - A translation of the >Digha Nikaya by Maurice Walshe. > >DN 12.13 'Lohicca Sutta: About Lohicca' Good and Bad Teachers. >DN 16.2.6ff 'Mahaparinibbana Sutta The Great Passing' The Buddha's >Last Days >DN 18.1ff 'Janavasabha Sutta: About Janavasabha' Brahma Addresses the >Gods >DN 23.2ff 'Payasi Sutta: About Payasi' Debate with a Sceptic >DN 28.5 'Sampasadaniya Sutta: Serene Faith' >DN 33.1.10(40)(41)'Sangiti Sutta: The Chanting Together' >DN 33.3.1(7) > >Majjhima Nikaya > >"According to the Buddha's teaching, all beings except the arahants >are subject to "renewal of being in the future" (punabbhava), that >is, to rebirth. Rebirth, in the Buddhist conception, is not >transmigration of a self or soul but the continuation of a process, a >flux of becoming in which successive lives are linked together by >causal transmissioin of influence rather than by substantial >identity. The basic causal pattern underlying the process is that >defined by the teaching of dependent origination, which also >demonstrates how rebirth is possible without a reincarnating self. >The process of rebirth, the Buddha teaches, exhibits a definite >lawfulness essentially ethical in character. This ethical character >is established by the fundamental dynamism that determines the states >into which beings are reborn and the circumstances they encounter in >the course of their lives. That dynamism is 'kamma', volitional >action of body, speech, and mind. Those beings who engage in bad >actions - actions motivated by the three unwholesome roots of greed, >hate, and delusion - generate unwholesome kamma that leads them to >rebirth into lower states of existence and, if it ripens in the human >world, brings them pain and misfortune. Those beings who engage in >good actions - actions motivated by the three wholesome roots of non- >greed, non-hate, and non-delusion - generate wholesome kamma that >leads them to higher states of existence and ripens in the human >world as pleasure and good fortune. Because the deeds a person >performs in the course of a single life can be extremely varied, the >type of rebirth that lies ahead of him can be very unpredictable, as >the Buddha shows in MN 136. But despite this empirical variability, >an invariable law governs the direct relationship between types of >actions and the types of results they yield, the basic correlations >being sketched by the Buddha in MN 57 and laid out in greater detail >in MN 135." (p.45 'The Middle Length Discourses of the'. A New >translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. Translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli >and Bhikkhu Bodhi.) > >MN 4.29 'Bhayabherava Sutta' Fear and Dread >MN 7.2 'Vatthupama Sutta' Simile of the Cloth >MN 12.37ff 'Mahasihanada Sutta' The Greater Discourse on the Lion's >Roar >MN 13.15 Mahadukkhakkhandha Sutta 'The Greater Discourse on the Mass >of Suffering' >MN 40.3 'Cula-Assapura Sutta' The Shorter Discourse at Assapura >MN 41.4ff 'Saleyyaka Sutta' The Brahmins of Sala >MN 41.15ff >MN 45.3 'Culadhammasamadana Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on Ways of >Undertaking Things >MN 45.5 >MN 45.6ff >MN 46.14 'Mahadhammasamadana Sutta' The Greater Discourse on Ways of >Undertaking Things >MN 46.16ff >MN 50.13 'Maratajjaniya Sutta' The Rebuke to Mara >MN 50.17 >MN 57.3 'Kukkuravatika Sutta' The Dog-duty Ascetic >MN 57.5 >MN 60.9ff 'Apannaka Sutta' The Incontrovertible Teaching >MN 60.12ff >MN 72.16ff ' Aggivacchagotta Sutta' To Vacchagotta on Fire >MN 84.6 'Madhura Sutta' At Madhura >MN 84.7 >MN 110.13 'Culapunnama Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on the Full-moon >Night >MN 110.24 >MN 115.17 'Bahadhatuka Sutta' The Many Kind of Elements' >MN 120.2ff 'Sankahrupapatti Sutta' Reappearance by Aspiration >MN 120.37 >MN 127.9 'Anuruddha Sutta' Anuruddha >MN 129.6 'Balapandita Sutta' Fools and Wise Men >MN 129.31 >MN 130.2ff 'Devaduta Sutta' The Divine Messengers >MN 135.5ff 'Culakammavibhanga Sutta' The Shorter Exposition of Action >MN 136.8 'Mahakammavibhanga Sutta' The Greater Exposition of Action > >The Samyutta Nikaya >Volume One >Page 184 SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 19.(9) Childless >Page 185-8 SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 21 (1) Persons >Page 614-615 SN ''The Book of Causation (Nidanavagga)' 70 (10)(ii) >Susima >Page 638 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga)13 (3) Dhatusamyutta >Page 674 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga) 9 Kassapasamyutta >Page 1021-29 SN 'The Book of the Aggregates(Khandhavagga) >Volume Two >Page 1287-89 SN 'The Connected Discourses on Women' 37 >Matugamasamyutta >Page 1333-38 SN 'The Connected Discourses to Headmen' 42 >Gamanisamyutta >Page 1392-93 SN 'The Book of the Six Sense Bases' Salayatanavagga >Page 1878-79 SN 'The Great Book (Mahavagga)' Saccasamyutta >Page 1885-88 SN 'The Great Book' Saccasamyutta - 102(1)ff Passing >Away.... > >'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha - An Anthology of Suttas from the >Anguttara Nikaya' by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi > >III.41 'The Refinement of the Mind - 1' >IV.77 'The Jhanas and Rebirth' >IV.89 'Queen Mallika' >IV.90 'Four Kinds of Kamma' >V.100 'The Benefits of Almsgiving' >V.101 'Five Desirable Things' >VI.123 'Don't Judge Others!' >VII.143 'Seven Bonds of Sexuality' >VIII.163 'Rebirth on account of Giving' >VIII.164 'Ways of Meritorious Action' >X.205 'The Extinction of Kamma' > > > > > > > Please visit our newly established websites! Buddhist Relief Mission Burmese Relief Center--USA Relief Notes 2002 14318 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth Hi, Christine - Thank you for the work you put into this post! You have done a great service, I think, in putting forward the case for the Buddhist view of "rebirth". I think there are several issues of importance (and several dangers involved) in this matter. One danger in the matter of rebirth (which I think is a misnomer, but which I shall nonetheless render without quotes! ;-) is that it is a concept easily infected by belief in self. As some of your quoted material points out, "heresies" such as Sati's easily arise, views which see rebirth as the situation of "a consciousness" moving from body to body or realm to realm, like a person travelling from place to place. This is a Brahmanical notion with no genuine relation to the Dhamma. Sometimes, the atta "infection" here may be quite subtle. Though one may deny that "a consciousness" continues, one still may have in the back of ones mind that, somehow, ones "identity" continues. Now, that is still a clinging to self. In fact, nothing at all continues. Current conditions, including current kamma and kammic accumulations result in the arising of subsequent conditions. This occurs from moment to moment as well as over gaps in time. But nothing, neither "a consciousness", nor an "identity", nor any core of any sort continues or is reborn. Anicca and paticcasamupada are the facts, but they are easily misconstrued. Rebirth serving as a repository for atta belief is one danger. A second, closely related danger, is bhava tanha, the craving for continued existence as an entity/identity/person/being. This is rooted in a belief and sense of self, and it may be the most tenacious of all cravings. It can be very subtle. It can seem to us that we have *no belief* in a self at all, yet this craving persists. In fact, even a stream enterer, who is without belief in self, still has the *sense* of self, and a subtle craving for existence remains. The belief in rebirth, though it needn't do so, is still likely to play into the subtle craving for being of the non-arahant, and, most especially of the worldling. So, bhava tanha is a danger. The opposite dangers exist as well. One can believe in a kind of annihilationist rebirth. That is, one can think (or, better, "feel") that one truly exists now as an entity/identity/person/being, that this person is "cut off" entirely at death, and then another "real person" is born somewhere (and some place) else, with that "real person" being the spiritual ancestor of the first. In this case, instead of having substantial continuation, one has complete annihilation of a real being followed by later birth of a distinctly separate real being. This view is a separatist, annihilationist view, and it serves as basis for craving for nonexistence, for escape by annihilation. This is the opposite side of the coin from the first view. It is the other extreme which the middle way of dependent arising avoids. In reality, there is no real being or entity or person or identity that exists even from moment to moment, and no real being later arises. There are just fleeting, empty conditions arising and ceasing, and serving as basis for the arising of subsequent formations. So, the foregoing are disclaimers. But those disclaimers aside, the Buddha did teach the continuation of the process of conditionality beyond the limit of a single "lifetime" and beyond the limit of a single realm of experience. He did teach it. I do believe it: Never did he teach the termination of that process except in the attaining of final nibbana. But belief in it is not the sine qua non of being a Buddhist, nor of practicing the Dhamma. In fact, a belief in rebirth can sometimes be more of an impediment than a disbelief - because the dangers are considerable. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/13/02 11:48:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > Dear Group, > > I've found the following references to Rebirth(Punabbhava) or Re- > becoming (Upapatti). Perhaps they may be useful to some of you. I'm > sure there are lots more references, but I only looked until I had no > more doubt that the Blessed One taught re-birth as an actual fact, > not as poetical metaphor, or as a 'kindness' to the uneducated or > superstitious of his time. Hope there are no errors in attribution, > or keyboard errors. Though I looked these up in hard copy, some may > be available on line at either: > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm > http://www.tipitaka.net/home/sitemap.htm > http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/ > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html > In addition, there are those suttas and other writings mentioned in > this previous message and in the replies listed at its foot. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14273 > > metta, > Chris > > The Digha Nikaya > > "There are some people in the West who are attracted in many ways to > Buddhism, but who find the idea of rebirth a stumbling-block, either > because they find it distasteful and/or incredible in itself, or in > some cases because they find it hard to reconcile with the 'non-self' > idea. Some such considerations as any of these sometimes even lead > people to declare that the Buddha did not actually teach rebirth at > all, or that if he did so, this was only for popular consumption, > because his hearers could not have accepted the truth. All such > views are based on various kinds of misunderstanding. It should be > noted, incidentally, that Buddhists prefer to speak, not of > reincarnation, but of rebirth. Reincarnation is the doctrine that > there is a transmigrating soul or spirit that passes on from life to > life. In the Buddhist view we may say, to begin with, that that is > merely what appears to happen, though in reality no such soul or > spirit passes on in this way. In Majjhima Nikaya 38 the monk Sati > was severely rebuked for declaring that 'this very consciousness' > transmigrates, whereas in reality a new consciusness arises at > rebirth dependent on the old. Nevertheless there is an illusion of > continuity in much the same wayas there is within this life. Rebirth > from life to life is in principle scarcely different from the rebirth > from moment to moment that goes on in this life. The point can be > intellectually grasped, with a greater or less degree of difficulty, > but it is only at the first path-moment, with the penetration of the > spurious nature of what we call self, that it is clearly undersood > without a shadow of doubt remaining." > p. 36 "The Long Discourses of the Buddha" - A translation of the > Digha Nikaya by Maurice Walshe. > > DN 12.13 'Lohicca Sutta: About Lohicca' Good and Bad Teachers. > DN 16.2.6ff 'Mahaparinibbana Sutta The Great Passing' The Buddha's > Last Days > DN 18.1ff 'Janavasabha Sutta: About Janavasabha' Brahma Addresses the > Gods > DN 23.2ff 'Payasi Sutta: About Payasi' Debate with a Sceptic > DN 28.5 'Sampasadaniya Sutta: Serene Faith' > DN 33.1.10(40)(41)'Sangiti Sutta: The Chanting Together' > DN 33.3.1(7) > > Majjhima Nikaya > > "According to the Buddha's teaching, all beings except the arahants > are subject to "renewal of being in the future" (punabbhava), that > is, to rebirth. Rebirth, in the Buddhist conception, is not > transmigration of a self or soul but the continuation of a process, a > flux of becoming in which successive lives are linked together by > causal transmissioin of influence rather than by substantial > identity. The basic causal pattern underlying the process is that > defined by the teaching of dependent origination, which also > demonstrates how rebirth is possible without a reincarnating self. > The process of rebirth, the Buddha teaches, exhibits a definite > lawfulness essentially ethical in character. This ethical character > is established by the fundamental dynamism that determines the states > into which beings are reborn and the circumstances they encounter in > the course of their lives. That dynamism is 'kamma', volitional > action of body, speech, and mind. Those beings who engage in bad > actions - actions motivated by the three unwholesome roots of greed, > hate, and delusion - generate unwholesome kamma that leads them to > rebirth into lower states of existence and, if it ripens in the human > world, brings them pain and misfortune. Those beings who engage in > good actions - actions motivated by the three wholesome roots of non- > greed, non-hate, and non-delusion - generate wholesome kamma that > leads them to higher states of existence and ripens in the human > world as pleasure and good fortune. Because the deeds a person > performs in the course of a single life can be extremely varied, the > type of rebirth that lies ahead of him can be very unpredictable, as > the Buddha shows in MN 136. But despite this empirical variability, > an invariable law governs the direct relationship between types of > actions and the types of results they yield, the basic correlations > being sketched by the Buddha in MN 57 and laid out in greater detail > in MN 135." (p.45 'The Middle Length Discourses of the'. A New > translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. Translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli > and Bhikkhu Bodhi.) > > MN 4.29 'Bhayabherava Sutta' Fear and Dread > MN 7.2 'Vatthupama Sutta' Simile of the Cloth > MN 12.37ff 'Mahasihanada Sutta' The Greater Discourse on the Lion's > Roar > MN 13.15 Mahadukkhakkhandha Sutta 'The Greater Discourse on the Mass > of Suffering' > MN 40.3 'Cula-Assapura Sutta' The Shorter Discourse at Assapura > MN 41.4ff 'Saleyyaka Sutta' The Brahmins of Sala > MN 41.15ff > MN 45.3 'Culadhammasamadana Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on Ways of > Undertaking Things > MN 45.5 > MN 45.6ff > MN 46.14 'Mahadhammasamadana Sutta' The Greater Discourse on Ways of > Undertaking Things > MN 46.16ff > MN 50.13 'Maratajjaniya Sutta' The Rebuke to Mara > MN 50.17 > MN 57.3 'Kukkuravatika Sutta' The Dog-duty Ascetic > MN 57.5 > MN 60.9ff 'Apannaka Sutta' The Incontrovertible Teaching > MN 60.12ff > MN 72.16ff ' Aggivacchagotta Sutta' To Vacchagotta on Fire > MN 84.6 'Madhura Sutta' At Madhura > MN 84.7 > MN 110.13 'Culapunnama Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on the Full-moon > Night > MN 110.24 > MN 115.17 'Bahadhatuka Sutta' The Many Kind of Elements' > MN 120.2ff 'Sankahrupapatti Sutta' Reappearance by Aspiration > MN 120.37 > MN 127.9 'Anuruddha Sutta' Anuruddha > MN 129.6 'Balapandita Sutta' Fools and Wise Men > MN 129.31 > MN 130.2ff 'Devaduta Sutta' The Divine Messengers > MN 135.5ff 'Culakammavibhanga Sutta' The Shorter Exposition of Action > MN 136.8 'Mahakammavibhanga Sutta' The Greater Exposition of Action > > The Samyutta Nikaya > Volume One > Page 184 SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 19.(9) Childless > Page 185-8 SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 21 (1) Persons > Page 614-615 SN ''The Book of Causation (Nidanavagga)' 70 (10)(ii) > Susima > Page 638 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga)13 (3) Dhatusamyutta > Page 674 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga) 9 Kassapasamyutta > Page 1021-29 SN 'The Book of the Aggregates(Khandhavagga) > Volume Two > Page 1287-89 SN 'The Connected Discourses on Women' 37 > Matugamasamyutta > Page 1333-38 SN 'The Connected Discourses to Headmen' 42 > Gamanisamyutta > Page 1392-93 SN 'The Book of the Six Sense Bases' Salayatanavagga > Page 1878-79 SN 'The Great Book (Mahavagga)' Saccasamyutta > Page 1885-88 SN 'The Great Book' Saccasamyutta - 102(1)ff Passing > Away.... > > 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha - An Anthology of Suttas from the > Anguttara Nikaya' by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi > > III.41 'The Refinement of the Mind - 1' > IV.77 'The Jhanas and Rebirth' > IV.89 'Queen Mallika' > IV.90 'Four Kinds of Kamma' > V.100 'The Benefits of Almsgiving' > V.101 'Five Desirable Things' > VI.123 'Don't Judge Others!' > VII.143 'Seven Bonds of Sexuality' > VIII.163 'Rebirth on account of Giving' > VIII.164 'Ways of Meritorious Action' > X.205 'The Extinction of Kamma' > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14319 From: goglerr Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Goggy > > I enjoyed reading your very informative reply to Christine. > > In your reply you mention the 5 benefits of walking meditation as given by > the Buddha. As you may have seen, the subject of walking meditation has > come up in another thread with Howard. Do you have a reference to the > sutta where the 5 benefits are mentioned? I would like to read more about > it. > > Thanks. > > Jon > Hello Jon, So sorry to reply u this late. You see, I was out of town for more than a week and I just got back today. I'm trying to catch up with all the messages. Well, the sutta is in Anguttara Nikaya, III, 29. It was translated as alley-walk discourse in the PTS. I find that this translation is not so good. If u could look up in the Pali text would be better. Goglerr 14320 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:51pm Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no. 10 Perfections Ch 2, no. 10: Some people believe that when they give things away their possessions will vanish, but in reality, it is already in the nature of possessions to vanish. No matter whether we give or do not give, when it is the right time for our possessions to vanish, they will disappear. Some people who have many possessions fear that if they do not share them out they will vanish, and therefore, they believe that they should rather give them away. When there are calamities caused by fire, inundation, robbers, or when possessions are confiscated by kings, one may regret it that one did not give things away. We can see that possessions do not vanish because of giving, but that it depends on kamma whether one has possessions or whether one loses them. It is most difficult to develop the perfections, even though one has listened to the Dhamma and learnt much about the perfections. It depends on the capacity of each individual to what degree he can develop kusala. The perfections should very gradually be developed together with paññå, they should be developed time and again. We know that this is necessary if we realize that we have many defilements and that it is difficult to develop the paññå that can eradicate them. Therefore, during each life defilements should gradually be eliminated, so that the four noble Truths can be realizied when one becomes a streamwinner, sotåpanna. Then one has reached the first stage of enlightenment, and one will not be reborn more than seven times. We should know what kind of paññå accompanies the perfection of generosity. The Book of Analysis (the second Book of the Abhidhamma), in Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, 325) explains about different kinds of paññå, such as wisdom by means of thinking, wisdom by means of hearing, wisdom by means of giving, wisdom by means of síla 6). We read about wisdom by means of giving (dånamayå paññå): ...Concerning giving, the achieving of giving, that which arises is wisdom, understanding... The ³Dispeller of Delusion² (the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, in Ch 16, 412) explains that understanding associated with the intention or volition (cetanå) of giving is ³understanding based on giving² or ³understanding by means of giving² (dånamayå paññå). When we read this we should investigate in detail the paññå which is accompanied by the volition or intention of giving (cetanå of dåna). Paññå cannot arise with akusala citta, it cannot arise when someone expects a result. We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion²: ...that understanding which arises associated in this way with the volition of giving, this is called ³understanding based on giving² (dånamayå paññå). But that has three forms, namely, prior volition, volition of relinquishing and subsequent volition, according as it arises in one who thinks: ³I shall give a gift², in one giving a gift or in one reviewing after having given a gift. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² shows here in detail when paññå accompanies the kusala cittas that are intent on generosity. Kusala citta can be unaccompanied by paññå or accompanied by paññå. Kusala citta of the sense sphere accompanied by paññå cetasika (mahå-kusala citta ñånasampayutta 7) can be kusala citta of the level of dåna, of síla, or of bhåvanå, mental development, including samatha and satipatthåna, which is the development of vipassanå. When we develop the perfection of generosity, the aim should be the correct understanding of realities as they are, without any expectation of a result for ourselves. This is the condition for paññå which is understanding based on dåna (dånamayå paññå). Footnotes: 6. I inserted the text of the ³Book of Analysis². 7. Mahå-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, are classified as ñåùa vippayutta, unaccompanied by paññå or ñåùa sampayutta, accompanied by paññå; ñåùa means paññå. 14321 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth Dear Christine, I really appreciate your thorough study and references about rebirth, anumodana, Nina. op 14-07-2002 05:47 schreef christine_forsyth op Christine: > > I've found the following references to Rebirth(Punabbhava) or Re- > becoming (Upapatti). 14322 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Dear Frank, Thank you for the explanation. As A. Sujin told me in former days, it is also wisdom to look after the body. Nina. op 14-07-2002 06:36 schreef frank kuan op <>: > Thanks for the excerpt from Sujin's Perfections. > Excellent point about renunciation only being truly > effective from the raw sensory level at guarding the > sense doors and not grasping to sensory experience as > delightful, disagreeable, I, mine... > Astanga Yoga is Hindu's version of an eightfold path, > a complete spiritual path not just physical exercise, > which shares several common themes with the Buddhist > 8fold path. > > My reason for practicing astanga is for the benefits > it brings to physical health (from a holistic > perspective, not just western notion of physical > health) health to complement the mental culture path > from Buddhism. Some spiritual practitioners who only > develop the mind and neglect their physical health > develop higher states of concentration and > consciousness, only to suffer from permanent psychosis > and hallucinations. 14323 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:22pm Subject: Saha And Saddhi.m With Some Translations Dear DSG Pali Friends I have just posted the following to reply the request of Bill Strider regarding the uses of saha and saddhi.m. in Pali Group. I hope you find it useful, too. Suan -------------------------- Dear Bill Strider,(and other Pali Friends) How are you? You wrote: "Both saha and saddhi.m are used with instrumental case nouns to mean "with." Are these two words entirely interchangeable, or are there situations where one of them is more appropriate than the other?" Generally, they are interchangeable. However, when saha has the meaning of being filled, adorned, dressed, covered, or complete with, only saha is more appropriate than saddhi.m. "Saha iti sampannatthe ca". Chapter 8, Catupadavibhaaga, Nipaatapada, Saddaniiti Suttamaalaa By Sayadaw Aggavamsa Of Myanmar. "Saha is also used in the sense of being complete with." Sayadaw gave the following quote from Majjhimanikaaya. "(A.t.thi tacena onaddham,[my addition]) saha vatthebhi sobhati." Section 302, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya. "(The body), being built with bones and skin, and covered with clothes, looks good." I hope you find the above information helpful. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ 14324 From: searchttt Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 0:47am Subject: new ! Hello ! I'm new to the list. A fe words to introduce myself. I'm 42 years old and live in Belgium (in the "French-talking" part of the country). I'm interested in spirituality in general. As far as buddhism is concerned, on an intelletual point of view, I will simply say that I've read many books written by buddhists from various paths. I've had the opportunity to discuss with many buddhists. On a practical point of view, I praticed yoga meditation (non buddhist), zazen with teachers or monks. For a rather short time, I've practiced vipassana. best regards. Jean-François 14325 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:00am Subject: Also new to group Not familiar with "group ediquitte", but I saw that a new user recently introduced himself, so I will do the same. I am Canadian, but live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. For the past 10+ years, I have been attending the Brickfields Vihara, home of Ven. Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda. Each Sunday, I teach an intoductory Abhidhamma class to about 75 Chinese devotees. We use Nina van Gorkom's book "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and another book of the same title written by Ashin Janakabhivamsa. I get asked some interesting questions in class, so I may be posting them here to get answers. I see that there have been some 14000 messages posted in this group, so I will be doing some back reading to improve my understanding and come up with interesting discussion topics for class. For a starter, does anybody have anything interesting to say about Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata). I am using Nina von Gorkom's book "Cetasikas" as a reference, but I am having a problem making these kusala cetasikas relevant and interesting to a lay audience. 14326 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:07am Subject: Re: Also new to group -- Dear Rob, Welcome to the group. Some of the first books I ever read on Dhamma were by the ven. Dhammananda - a tireless worker for the Dhamma. I'll be in Bangkok from August 15 -20 and Sarah and Jon will be there from 16-18 , we will be meeting with khun Sujin and others for Dhamma discussions which you would be most welcome to join. For back reading of the files there is a section where some of the useful posts are kept: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts metta Robert - "robmoult" wrote: > Not familiar with "group ediquitte", but I saw that a new user > recently introduced himself, so I will do the same. > > I am Canadian, but live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. For the past 10+ > years, I have been attending the Brickfields Vihara, home of Ven. > Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda. > > Each Sunday, I teach an intoductory Abhidhamma class to about 75 > Chinese devotees. We use Nina van Gorkom's book "Abhidhamma in Daily > Life" and another book of the same title written by Ashin > Janakabhivamsa. > 14327 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:43am Subject: Re: Also new to group Thanks for the offer, Robert, Currently, I spend weekdays in China and weekends in Malaysia. I go to Bangkok a few times a year, but at the moment, I don't think that I will be in Thailand in August. --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > -- > Dear Rob, > Welcome to the group. > Some of the first books I ever read on Dhamma were by the ven. > Dhammananda - a tireless worker for the Dhamma. > I'll be in Bangkok from August 15 -20 and Sarah and Jon will be > there from 16-18 , we will be meeting with khun Sujin and others for > Dhamma discussions which you would be most welcome to join. > For back reading of the files there is a section where some of the > useful posts are kept: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > metta > Robert > - "robmoult" wrote: > > Not familiar with "group ediquitte", but I saw that a new user > > recently introduced himself, so I will do the same. > > > > I am Canadian, but live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. For the past > 10+ > > years, I have been attending the Brickfields Vihara, home of Ven. > > Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda. > > > > Each Sunday, I teach an intoductory Abhidhamma class to about 75 > > Chinese devotees. We use Nina van Gorkom's book "Abhidhamma in > Daily > > Life" and another book of the same title written by Ashin > > Janakabhivamsa. > > 14328 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:29pm Subject: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople. The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on application in daily life. I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas? 14329 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Dear Rob M, Thank you SO much for your detailed and interesting intro. I know Nina will also be very glad to hear about the abhdidhamma course you teach. In the 70s, when Jon was living in Bkk, he used to send boxes and boxes of ADL and other books to friends in Malaysia (esp. in Penang) and had quite a lot of contact with these keen students. I note you spend time in China. Let us know if you pass through Hong Kong too. There will also be quite a gathering of DSGers in Bkk at the end Nov/beg Dec when Nina, Christine, Azita will also be joining Rob, ourselves and others already there. ********** A couple of suggestions which may give you one or two ideas with your qu. below: 6 Pairs ====== I wrote a post to Erik in reply to comments of his with daily life relevance I think: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3798.html (my post) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3686.html (Erik's) Tattramajjhattata ============= Try looking under 'Equanimity' in Useful Posts (which Rob K mentioned): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts You can always try a potentially wild goose search chase by putting a words such as 'kaya lahuta' or 'tattramajjhattata' in the search on escribe as I just did to find the first posts: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ (Note: the escribe back-up only started quite sometime --that means I've fortotten when-- after DSG started and there have been periods when they broke down and messages weren't recorded there) Please let us know anymore about your classes and your presentation. We'll be delighted to hear of any tricky questions by your students and look forward to any answers or comments you give us in the meantime. Sarah ====== p.s, I'm sure you'll have seen that Larry is 'running' an ADL study corner here.....we're about up to C15 or C16. We'll be delighted to hear any of your comments on this or for any of your students to join. ....... --- robmoult wrote: > I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople. > > The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on > application in daily life. > > I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas? 14330 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new ! Hi Jean-Francois, Welcome to DSG and thank you for setting such a good example to Rob M by introducing yourself. --- searchttt wrote: > Hello ! > > I'm new to the list. > > A fe words to introduce myself. > > I'm 42 years old and live in Belgium (in the "French-talking" part > of the country). > > I'm interested in spirituality in general. ...... Well, Nina is your neighbour in Holland. I'm sure there are many French speakers around, but your English is obviously very fluent. ..... > As far as buddhism is concerned, on an intelletual point of view, I > will simply say that I've read many books written by buddhists > from various paths. I've had the opportunity to discuss with > many buddhists. > > On a practical point of view, I praticed yoga meditation (non > buddhist), zazen with teachers or monks. For a rather short time, > I've practiced vipassana. ..... This all sounds very interesting. You'll get to meet others here who practice yoga (all kinds), vipassana (full range of understanding of the term) and who've come from zazen and other Mahayana schools. ..... We'll be glad to hear questions, comments, answers from you. Feel free to join in any thread or ignore those that are of no interest to you. Hope to speak to you later, Sarah p.s for simple Pali terms, you may like to print out this glossary if they are not familiar to you: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary ====== 14331 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)] Dear Shakti, --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Yes, we have computers in Montana as I am typing on one. If you are > really coming to Montana and happen to pass thru Missoula on your way to > your cabin in the wood if you have time and would like to get together > for tea I would certain enjoy meeting you. I will be here thru mid > August so please let me know. ..... I think you meant to address this note to Dan. Missoula doesn't sound like it'll be on the way from Hong Kong to Sydney;-( , so It'll have to be another time. I hope you get to meet Dan & family. Let us know if so. Sarah ===== 14332 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth Hi Howard & Chris, In addition to all your excellent research, Chris, I think you can also add all the Jatakas (as Rob suggested), many Dhammapada verses, many Thera-therigatha verses, all the Petavatthu and Vimanavatthu (Stories of the Departed & Mansions) in that all these come under the suttas in the Sutta-pitaka, though not in the first four nikayas you refer to. .......... Howard, you’ve made some excellent comments in your post. As you suggest, the clinging to an idea of ‘self’ is very tenacious, regardless of whether one accepts or discards ‘rebirth’ in theory. Only by developing the wisdom which really understands the conditioned nature and arising and falling away of paramattha dhammas will it clearly be understood without doubt. As Dan and i've been discussing, this stage of insight which understands the conditioned nature of realities, can only be realized when there is no doubt about namas and rupas: ..... "After discerning the material body's conditions in this way, he again discerns the mental body in the way beginnng: 'due to eye and to visible object eye-consciousness arises' (Sii72, Mi,111). When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence will be due to conditions. When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus: "Was I in the past.......... and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the future stated thus: "Shall I be in the future?...., and also the six kinds of uncertainty about the present stated thus: "Am I?..."(Mi,8) (end quote from Vism XIX,5) ***** I particularly liked this danger you raise here: --- Howard wrote: > One danger in the matter of rebirth (which I think is a misnomer, > but > which I shall nonetheless render without quotes! ;-) is that it is a > concept > easily infected by belief in self. As some of your quoted material > points > out, "heresies" such as Sati's easily arise, views which see rebirth as > the > situation of "a consciousness" moving from body to body or realm to > realm, > like a person travelling from place to place. This is a Brahmanical > notion > with no genuine relation to the Dhamma. Sometimes, the atta "infection" > here > may be quite subtle. Though one may deny that "a consciousness" > continues, > one still may have in the back of ones mind that, somehow, ones > "identity" > continues. Now, that is still a clinging to self. In fact, nothing at > all > continues. Current conditions, including current kamma and kammic > accumulations result in the arising of subsequent conditions. This > occurs > from moment to moment as well as over gaps in time. But nothing, neither > "a > consciousness", nor an "identity", nor any core of any sort continues or > is > reborn. Anicca and paticcasamupada are the facts, but they are easily > misconstrued. Rebirth serving as a repository for atta belief is one > danger. ..... With regard to your second danger mentioned, bhava tanha, again you make some helpful points. As I understand, bhava tanha can be either with or without the (wrong) view of self and so we need to read the context carefully. The anagami still has a subtle clinging for existence or the results of jhana, but all view of self has long since been eradicated (at the stage of the sotapanna).I know Nina will be happy to discuss this subject further if you are interested while I’m away. ..... You then mention the annihilationist views and add more useful points.which I’ll just add at the end of the post as I’m unable to ‘snip’ when they’re all so helpful and relevant;-) As you suggest, there is still the idea of self in this view. You’ve been considering carefully. All the wrong views are included in the Brahmajala sutta, in the ‘net of views’, including those concerned with annhihilation and eternalism. All these views are rooted in an idea of self. (Newcomers may like to read these posts on the subject also with textual references:) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11082 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10500 Thank you both for covering this difficult topic so beautifully. Sarah ===== >....So, bhava tanha is a danger. > The opposite dangers exist as well. One can believe in a kind of > annihilationist rebirth. That is, one can think (or, better, "feel") > that one > > truly exists now as an entity/identity/person/being, that this person is > "cut > > off" entirely at death, and then another "real person" is born somewhere > (and > > some place) else, with that "real person" being the spiritual ancestor > of the > > first. In this case, instead of having substantial continuation, one has > > complete annihilation of a real being followed by later birth of a > distinctly > > separate real being. This view is a separatist, annihilationist view, > and it > serves as basis for craving for nonexistence, for escape by > annihilation. > This is the opposite side of the coin from the first view. It is the > other > extreme which the middle way of dependent arising avoids. In reality, > there > is no real being or entity or person or identity that exists even from > moment > > to moment, and no real being later arises. There are just fleeting, > empty > conditions arising and ceasing, and serving as basis for the arising of > subsequent formations. > So, the foregoing are disclaimers. But those disclaimers aside, > the > Buddha did teach the continuation of the process of conditionality > beyond the > > limit of a single "lifetime" and beyond the limit of a single realm of > experience. He did teach it. I do believe it: Never did he teach the > termination of that process except in the attaining of final nibbana. > But > belief in it is not the sine qua non of being a Buddhist, nor of > practicing > the Dhamma. In fact, a belief in rebirth can sometimes be more of an > impediment than a disbelief - because the dangers are considerable. ................................................................................................... 14333 From: searchttt Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new ! --- Sarah wrote: > Well, Nina is your neighbour in Holland. I'm sure there are many French > speakers around, but your English is obviously very fluent. > ..... Yes. Holland is a country I like very much. This year I'll go to Holland, but just for a one-day trip. A few words to Nina: Hallo Nina, hoe gaat het? Misschie hebben we ooit de gelengenheid samen te mediteren? Wie weet? > You'll get to meet others here who > practice yoga (all kinds), vipassana (full range of understanding of the > term) and who've come from zazen and other Mahayana schools. Which is a very good thing :-) Jean-François 14334 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 6:12pm Subject: Refuge and Precepts Hi everyone, I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by Bhikkhu Bodhi. About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism. It seemed at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or society. Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary. It would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole booklet is quite inspiring to read. I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder what others think about this possibility? Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action or speech of some sort. But should these feelings be discouraged? Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any alternatives? metta, Christine "Going for Refuge The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter it we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem -- that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the community of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the going for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation of the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by making the same threefold profession: Buddham saranam gacchami I go for refuge to the Buddha; Dhammam saranam gacchami I go for refuge to the Dhamma; Sangham saranam gacchami I go for refuge to the Sangha. As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its importance should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the Buddhist path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature and in its implications for future development along the path. To open up the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, we here present an examination of the process in terms of its most significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the similes for the refuges." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref 14335 From: Ruth Klein Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 6:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Refuge and Precepts A question that's been on my mind, too. Having no monastic community near by, I have not had the opportunity to participate in this ritual either. I will have the option when I'm at Wat Metta next month. However, one is supposed to approach this undertaking without any doubts - many of which I still harbor. > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:13 AM > > Hi everyone, > I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by > Bhikkhu Bodhi. About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this > topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a > meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and > remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism. It seemed > at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a > lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or > society. Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not > familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary. It > would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole > booklet is quite inspiring to read. > I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder > what others think about this possibility? > Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the > Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action > or speech of some sort. But should these feelings be discouraged? > Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any > alternatives? > > metta, > Christine 14336 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Refuge and Precepts Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/15/02 6:13:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > > Hi everyone, > I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by > Bhikkhu Bodhi. About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this > topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a > meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and > remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism. It seemed > at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a > lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or > society. Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not > familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary. It > would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole > booklet is quite inspiring to read. > I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder > what others think about this possibility? > Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the > Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action > or speech of some sort. But should these feelings be discouraged? > Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any > alternatives? > > metta, > Christine > > > "Going for Refuge > The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with > its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any > other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter it > we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the > teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem -- > that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the > Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the community > of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the going > for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation of > the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its > lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's > teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while > those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by making > the same threefold profession: > > Buddham saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Buddha; > Dhammam saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Dhamma; > > Sangham saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Sangha. > > As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in > comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its importance > should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts > direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the Buddhist > path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is > vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature and > in its implications for future development along the path. To open up > the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, we > here present an examination of the process in terms of its most > significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following > eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a > refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going > for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for > refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the > similes for the refuges." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref > > > ============================= I think this is a very personal, very individual matter. I never attended a formal going-for-refuge ceremony. At the one 10-day Goenka retreat I attended, there was a group recitation of the three refuges which I participated in and took quite seriously. Whenever I visit with the Thai monk I see, prior to our sitting to meditate he has me recite the "namo tassa" and the three refuges, which, again, I take quite seriously, with concentration and devotional intent. I think that what is important in this regard is one's intention. You write "Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the Teachings ..." To me, this is the core of taking refuge, because it comes from your heart. You may find it kind of completion to further express it in word and deed, but you already have the core of it, the genuine deep respect, appreciation, and love. That's what really counts as I see it. As far as empty ritual is concerned, that will be operative if one thinks that the recitation and formal ceremony has a magical element to it, and that the mere recitation is, itself, of value. But if one views a formal taking of refuge and expression of devotion as the external completion of what already exists internally, then this is not mere ritual, and it could be quite a lovely experience. That's how I see the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14337 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:54pm Subject: Re: coming to Montana? Dear Sarah and Dan, Sorry for the confusion. Dan if you and your family are coming to Montana and pass thru Missoula please let me know and perhaps I can act as a tour guide for a day or so. With metta, Shakti Sarah wrote: Dear Shakti, --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Yes, we have computers in Montana as I am typing on one. If you are > really coming to Montana and happen to pass thru Missoula on your way to > your cabin in the wood if you have time and would like to get together > for tea I would certain enjoy meeting you. I will be here thru mid > August so please let me know. ..... I think you meant to address this note to Dan. Missoula doesn't sound like it'll be on the way from Hong Kong to Sydney;-( , so It'll have to be another time. I hope you get to meet Dan & family. Let us know if so. Sarah ===== 14338 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16pm Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas: To Rob Moult Dear Rob Moult I reproduced the following post I sent to the other groups a few weeks ago whose themes or traditions are different from here in DSG. It contained a brief discussion of "kaayakammaññataa" and "cittakammaññataa". As for tatramajjhattata, you can find my old post on the bodhiology website. It can be found under Academic Snippets, Content 2001, The Science And Academic Journal Of Bodhiology on the website (see the link below the present post.) I hope you find them useful. Suan ------------------------------------- (Preface To The Previous Groups) The following post attempted to show how we could describe the experiences of a veteran psychoanalyst by applying technical terms of Pali Abhidhamma. Please also note that the psychoanalyst in question had no recourse to any modern technical terms to describe his own experiences when he performed successful psychotherapy. Here, you could witness the capability and versatility of technical terms found in 600 BC Pali Abhidhamma Texts in expressing the experiences of modern human beings. Suan ------------------------------------ Dear Julio (and Chris, and group) Thank you for sharing the experiences of a retired psychoanalyst who made the following statements for his clinical successes. "...Thinking back on it, those were the moments when everything happened -the moments when it seemed like nothing was happening at all. "It took thirty years to learn to let that happen", he said. ..." What attracted my attention most from the above statements was the experience expressed as the moments when everything happened, yet seeming like nothing was happening at all. The above expression reminded me of two important technical terms of psychology found in 600 BC Pali Abhidhamma texts. They are "kaayakammaññataa" and "cittakammaññataa". Kaayakammaññataa means the workability of the mental associates while cittakammaññataa is the workability of the mind. Workability here refers to the situation in which we find ourselves effortless in whatever we do. When we are in such a situation, we could experience, like the psychoanalyst in Julio's post, the moments when everything happens while feeling as if nothing was happening. I hope this post gives you something to ponder over. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- "robmoult" wrote: > I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople. > > The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on > application in daily life. > > I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas? 14339 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:22pm Subject: Robert, Sarah and Jon - Bkk Dear Robert, Sarah and Jon, I was happy to hear that you would all be in Bangkok in August but sadden that I will miss you all by a few days. I will be in Bangkok August 24th for a few days before I leave for Kathmandu and then Tibet. I then will return October 1st or so. I hope to meet members of dsg group at that time. With metta, Shakti "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: -- Dear Rob, Welcome to the group. Some of the first books I ever read on Dhamma were by the ven. Dhammananda - a tireless worker for the Dhamma. I'll be in Bangkok from August 15 -20 and Sarah and Jon will be there from 16-18 , we will be meeting with khun Sujin and others for Dhamma discussions which you would be most welcome to join. For back reading of the files there is a section where some of the useful posts are kept: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts metta Robert - "robmoult" wrote: > Not familiar with "group ediquitte", but I saw that a new user > recently introduced himself, so I will do the same. > > I am Canadian, but live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. For the past 10+ > years, I have been attending the Brickfields Vihara, home of Ven. > Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda. > > Each Sunday, I teach an intoductory Abhidhamma class to about 75 > Chinese devotees. We use Nina van Gorkom's book "Abhidhamma in Daily > Life" and another book of the same title written by Ashin > Janakabhivamsa. > 14340 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:24pm Subject: Re: Robert, Sarah and Jon - Bkk --- Wonderful Deanna, I plan to be back in Bangkok from late september so we'll meet then. Much looking foward to it. please take some photos in tibet! Robert Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Robert, Sarah and Jon, > I was happy to hear that you would all be in Bangkok in August but sadden that I will miss you all by a few days. I will be in Bangkok August 24th for a few days before I leave for Kathmandu and then Tibet. I then will return October 1st or so. I hope to meet members of dsg group at that time. With metta, Shakti 14341 From: search Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:35am Subject: Re : [dsg] Refuge and Precepts Hi ! Walpula Rahula says that you can be a buddhist without going for refuge. You simply have to follow the teaching of the Buddha. Yet, he added that it is a tradition to take refuge. I've also read somewhere that in some traditions you take refuge on different occasions, even every day. Personnaly, I do think that rituals are important in everbody's life. There are rituals in everyday life, as kissing the child before he/she goes to bed, shaking hands when you meet somebody (in some countries), thanking your boss when he gives you a big file to deal with... There are also rituals with a spiritual meaning. You can find them in religions, in freemasonry, etc... Rituals are a way of expressing something you can't express otherwise. Like symbols. But this is only my point of view. Best regards. Jean-François ---------- >De : "christine_forsyth" >Objet : [dsg] Refuge and Precepts >Date : Lun 15 juil 2002 11:12 > > Hi everyone, > I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by > Bhikkhu Bodhi. About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this > topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a > meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and > remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism. It seemed > at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a > lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or > society. Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not > familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary. It > would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole > booklet is quite inspiring to read. > I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder > what others think about this possibility? > Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the > Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action > or speech of some sort. But should these feelings be discouraged? > Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any > alternatives? > > metta, > Christine > > > "Going for Refuge > The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with > its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any > other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter it > we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the > teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem -- > that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the > Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the community > of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the going > for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation of > the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its > lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's > teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while > those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by making > the same threefold profession: > > Buddham saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Buddha; > Dhammam saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Dhamma; > > Sangham saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Sangha. > > As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in > comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its importance > should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts > direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the Buddhist > path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is > vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature and > in its implications for future development along the path. To open up > the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, we > here present an examination of the process in terms of its most > significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following > eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a > refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going > for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for > refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the > similes for the refuges." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref 14342 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:08am Subject: Re: Refuge and Precepts Hi Christine, Manussa is unhappy (dukkha). He is unhappy because he is in jail. His crime? Craving. His sentence? Life imprisonment. The prison? Samsara. He had just finished a life term for the crime of craving and as soon as he was released, he was thrown back into the prison of samsara for the same crime. One day, the Buddha appeared and said, "Like you, I used to be a prisoner in Samsara. I escaped and I showed my friends, the Ariyas, how to escape as well." The Buddha then gave Manussa a key and said, "This key opens the door to the prison of Samsara. To use it, you must walk to the door, put the key in the keyhole, turn the key and open the door." The Buddha disappeared leaving the key behind. Unfortunately, Manussa lacked wisdom (panna) and wasn't sure what to do with the key. Manussa remembered that the key had been given to him by the Buddha. He decided to frame the key and hang it on the wall. Each week, Manussa would take refuge in the key, he would worship the key and recite the virtues of the key. These rites and rituals made Manussa feel a bit better. He hoped that the key would let him out of the prison of Samsara. Poor Manussa! He needed faith to believe that there was a door and that the key would work, however, to get out of Samsara, right effort is needed. Without right effort, the key is useless. Having said this, taking refuge or reciting precepts can be of great value, if done with understanding. This is because these actions, if done with understanding, inspire kusala cetasikas. Repeated regularly, these actions build positive mental habits (Buddhi- carita / saddha-carita / vitakka-carita). Carita impacts the determining citta of the thought process. Since the moral quality of any action depends on the underlying volition, taking refuge or reciting precepts (if done with understanding) helps one to be virtuous naturally in daily life. The taking of refuge or reciting of precepts must be done with proper understanding to be of great value. I agree with you that Bhikkhu Bodhi's book is very inspiring, it contributes greatly to "proper understanding" of taking refuge and reciting precepts. There is however, one point in this book that I am not sure about. When listing the factors required to constitute a breaking of the precept of "false speech", Bhikkhu Bodhi states that the conveying of a false impression is enough, it is not required that the other person believe what you have said is true. This would mean that teasing and joking would fall under the purview of this precept. In fact, Bhikkhu Bodhi states that joking, exaggerating and flattery are examples of false speech motivated by moha. I am not sure about this because, in cases such as this, there is no intention / volition / thought to deceive. Anybody have any comments on this? I have digressed from your question. In my opinion, though faith plays an important part in Buddhism, particularly at the beginning of the practice, it is action that gains us salvation and release from suffering. The type of action appropriate for you depends on your nature. Most of us are not ready to shave our heads. I think that people who are experiencing worries (financial or otherwise) should focus on dana. Donating time is more important than money. Spending an hour massaging a spastic child or helping orphans with their homework is enough to reset anybody's perspective about their own problems. For those who are stressed, I think that meditation is a good idea. Try holding up a cup for an hour – it gets really painful. However, if you regularly put the cup down, even for a few seconds, you can carry the cup for a long time. In this analogy, I think it is from Ajan Chah, the cup is the thing that is stressing you and "putting it down" is clearing the mind with meditation. For those people who are neither worried nor stressed, they should go for refuge and take precepts at the beginning of the day and then being aware of daily life and how our actions measure up against the precepts. Avoiding evil (sila), doing good (dana), and purifying the mind (bhavana) are all kusala actions and help establish positive habits, thereby helping us along the path. Sorry that this message ended up being so longwinded, I am on an airplane with some time to kill and decided to take it out on you :-). I hope that my musings are of some help. Thanks, Rob :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi everyone, > I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by > Bhikkhu Bodhi. About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this > topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a > meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and > remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism. It seemed > at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a > lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or > society. Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not > familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary. It > would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole > booklet is quite inspiring to read. > I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder > what others think about this possibility? > Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the > Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action > or speech of some sort. But should these feelings be discouraged? > Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any > alternatives? > > metta, > Christine > > > "Going for Refuge > The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with > its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any > other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter it > we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the > teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem -- > that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the > Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the community > of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the going > for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation of > the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its > lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's > teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while > those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by making > the same threefold profession: > > Buddham saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Buddha; > Dhammam saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Dhamma; > > Sangham saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Sangha. > > As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in > comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its importance > should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts > direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the Buddhist > path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is > vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature and > in its implications for future development along the path. To open up > the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, we > here present an examination of the process in terms of its most > significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following > eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a > refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going > for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for > refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the > similes for the refuges." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref 14343 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:13am Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas: To Rob Moult Thanks, useful stuff. --- "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Rob Moult > > I reproduced the following post I sent to the other groups a few > weeks ago whose themes or traditions are different from here in DSG. > It contained a brief discussion of "kaayakammaññataa" > and "cittakammaññataa". > > As for tatramajjhattata, you can find my old post on the bodhiology > website. It can be found under Academic Snippets, Content 2001, The > Science And Academic Journal Of Bodhiology on the website (see the > link below the present post.) > > I hope you find them useful. > > Suan > > ------------------------------------- > > > (Preface To The Previous Groups) > > The following post attempted to show how we could describe the > experiences of a veteran psychoanalyst by applying technical terms of > Pali Abhidhamma. > > Please also note that the psychoanalyst in question had no recourse > to any modern technical terms to describe his own experiences when he > performed successful psychotherapy. > > Here, you could witness the capability and versatility of technical > terms found in 600 BC Pali Abhidhamma Texts in expressing the > experiences of modern human beings. > > > Suan > > ------------------------------------ > > > Dear Julio (and Chris, and group) > > Thank you for sharing the experiences of a retired psychoanalyst who > made the following statements for his clinical successes. > > "...Thinking back on it, those were the moments when everything > happened -the moments when it seemed like nothing was happening at > all. > > "It took thirty years to learn to let that happen", he said. ..." > > What attracted my attention most from the above statements was the > experience expressed as the moments when everything happened, yet > seeming like nothing was happening at all. > > The above expression reminded me of two important technical terms of > psychology found in 600 BC Pali Abhidhamma texts. > > They are "kaayakammaññataa" and "cittakammaññataa". > > Kaayakammaññataa means the workability of the mental associates while > cittakammaññataa is the workability of the mind. > > Workability here refers to the situation in which we find ourselves > effortless in whatever we do. When we are in such a situation, we > could experience, like the psychoanalyst in Julio's post, the moments > when everything happens while feeling as if nothing was happening. > > I hope this post gives you something to ponder over. > > With kind regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > > > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala > > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya > > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, > > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople. > > > > The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on > > application in daily life. > > > > I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas? 14344 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Sarah, Thanks for the info. --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob M, > > Thank you SO much for your detailed and interesting intro. I know Nina > will also be very glad to hear about the abhdidhamma course you teach. In > the 70s, when Jon was living in Bkk, he used to send boxes and boxes of > ADL and other books to friends in Malaysia (esp. in Penang) and had quite > a lot of contact with these keen students. > > I note you spend time in China. Let us know if you pass through Hong Kong > too. There will also be quite a gathering of DSGers in Bkk at the end > Nov/beg Dec when Nina, Christine, Azita will also be joining Rob, > ourselves and others already there. > ********** > A couple of suggestions which may give you one or two ideas with your qu. > below: > > 6 Pairs > ====== > I wrote a post to Erik in reply to comments of his with daily life > relevance I think: > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3798.html > (my post) > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3686.html > (Erik's) > > Tattramajjhattata > ============= > Try looking under 'Equanimity' in Useful Posts (which Rob K mentioned): > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > You can always try a potentially wild goose search chase by putting a > words such as 'kaya lahuta' or 'tattramajjhattata' in the search on > escribe as I just did to find the first posts: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ > > (Note: the escribe back-up only started quite sometime --that means I've > fortotten when-- after DSG started and there have been periods when they > broke down and messages weren't recorded there) > > Please let us know anymore about your classes and your presentation. We'll > be delighted to hear of any tricky questions by your students and look > forward to any answers or comments you give us in the meantime. > > avoid confusion?> > > Sarah > ====== > p.s, I'm sure you'll have seen that Larry is 'running' an ADL study corner > here.....we're about up to C15 or C16. We'll be delighted to hear any of > your comments on this or for any of your students to join. > ....... > > --- robmoult wrote: > I need to present > Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala > > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya > > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, > > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople. > > > > The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on > > application in daily life. > > > > I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas? 14345 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no 11 Perfections, Ch 2, no 11: We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct², Division II, the Perfection of Renunciation, no. 1, ³Conduct of Yudhañjaya² 8) : Paññå of the beginning stage that considers the impermanence of realities, knows which dhammas are beneficial concerning generosity etc. and which are not. This is the perfection of paññå. Dåna, generosity, is the giving away of objects for the benefit and happiness of others. When we give things away we are not selfish. Paññå of the beginning stage considers the impermanence of realities. Did we ever consider at the moment of giving that there is nothing lasting? Even possessions that we still have today and that we have not yet given away may vanish before we can give them away, because they are impermanent. Even we ourselves who have not yet given away things are impermanent, we may die even before we have the opportunity to be generous. When we reflect on the impermanence of those who give and those who receive, kusala citta may motivate us to give assistance to others. When we give away things that are beneficial to others with the understanding of the impermanence of everything, the perfection of wisdom can develop. We can only know for ourselves whether we consider impermanence at such moments. When we meet people who are poor, we can reflect on the unsatisfactoriness of life and on impermanence before giving, at the moment of giving and after having given, thus at the three moments of wholesome intention, kusala cetanå, with regard to giving. Some people feel joy with regard to some kinds of dåna, not to all kinds, and when they recollect their generosity afterwards they are delighted and have attachment to their generosity. This shows that there may be wholesome intention, kusala cetanå, before giving, and at the moment of giving, but that afterwards there may not be kusala citta. We should investigate, when we recollect our generosity after we have given, whether the citta is kusala citta or akusala citta. We may be happy when we consider that we have done something beneficial, that we have given assistance to people so that they are free from suffering. Others may not give assistance to them because they may not know of their needs. When we have given assistance to people and we recollect the kusala we have performed, we may feel delighted, but this is non-self, anattå; it is beyond control whether happiness arises or not. Happy feeling may arise because we had an opportunity to help someone who was in need and whom we should give assistance. However, if we desire to recollect our kusala in order to have benefit for ourselves, it is not the perfection of generosity. The difference between generosity that is a perfection and that isn¹t is very subtle. Footnote: 8. When the Bodhisatta was Yudhañjaya, a King¹s son, he saw a dewdrop that vanished by the heat of the sun. This reminded him of impermanence and caused him to wish to renounce worldly life. ***** 14346 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Rob M, I couldn't get into escribe to see what Sarah wrote, so this may be redundant. There is a good description of the sobhana cetasikas in "A Comprehensive Manual Of Abhidhamma" which is a reworking of M. Narada's translation of Abhidhammatta Sangaha with commentary by B. Bodhi and U Rewata Dhamma. Here's a brief synopsis of the ones you are interested in: Tatramajjhattata (neutrality of mind) lit. "there in the middleness". Synonym equanimity (upekkha), mental attitude of balance, detachment, impartiality. Characteristic of conveying consciousness and mental factors evenly. Function: prevent deficiency and excess, or prevent partiality. "...like a charioteer who looks on with equanimity at the thoroughbreds progressing evenly along the roadway." "Neutrality of mind becomes the sublime quality of equanimity toward living beings. As such it treats beings free from discrimination, without preferences and prejudices, looking upon all as equal. This equanimity should not be confused with its "near enemy," the worldly-minded indifference due to ignorance." The next 6 pairs relate to citta and kaya ("kaya" in this instance refers to the "body" of associated cetasikas). Passaddhi (tranquility) c&k: Characteristic: quieting down disturbances in the mental body and conscousness. Function to crush such disturbances. Manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Opposed to restlessness and worry. Lahuta (lightness) c&k: Characteristic of subsiding of heaviness. Function to crush heaviness. Manifested as non-sluggishness. Opposed to sloth and torpor. Muduta (malleability) c&k: Characteristic of subsiding of rigidity in citta and kaya. Function is to crush regidity. Manifested as non-resistance. Opposed to wrong views and conceit. Kammannata (wieldiness): Characteristic of subsiding of unwieldiness in citta & kaya. Function is to crush unwieldiness. Manifested as success of citta and kaya in making something an object. "It should be regarded as opposed to the remaining hindrances, which create unwieldiness of the mental body and consciousnss." Pagunnata (proficiency): Characteristic of healthiness of kaya and citta. Function is to crush unhealthiness. Manifested as absence of disability. Opposed to lack of faith etc. which cause unhealthiness of mental body and consciousness. Ujjukata (rectitude) = straightness: Characteristic of uprightness of citta and kaya. Function is to crush tortuousness of c & k. Manifestation is non-crookedness. Opposed to hypocrasy and fraudulance which are crookedness in c & k. I don't know what "remaining hindrances" means under kammannata but the rest seems about as clear as abhidhamma gets. good luck,Larry 14347 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:35am Subject: ADL ch. 16 (1) Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 16 (1) OBJECTS AND DOORS Citta knows or experiences something; it experiences an object. There cannot be any citta without an object. When an object presents itself through one of the five senses or through the mind-door, do we realize that it is citta which experiences that object? When we do not see things as they are, we think that a self experiences objects, and, moreover, we take objects for permanent and for self. For example, when we see a log of wood, we are used to thinking that the object which is seen at that moment is the log of wood; we do not realize that only visible object is the object which can be seen. When we touch the log of wood, hardness or cold, for example, can be experienced through the body-sense. We take the log of wood for a thing which lasts, but what we call 'log of wood' are many different rupas which arise and fall away. Only one characteristic of rupa can be experienced at a time, when it presents itself. If we develop our understanding to see different characteristics which appear through different doorways we will be able to see things as they really are. The ariyan sees life in a way which is different from the way the non-ariyan sees it. What the person who is not an ariyan takes for happiness (in Pali : sukha), is for the ariyan sorrow (dukkha) ; what for the non-ariyan is sorrow, is for the ariyan happiness. In the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Ch. IV, par. 136) it is said in a verse : Things seen and heard, tastes, odours, what we touch, Perceive, - - all, everything desirable, Pleasant and sweet, while one can say 'it is', These are deemed 'sukha' by both gods and men. And when they cease to be they hold it woe. The dissolution of the body-self To ariyans seems 'sukha'. Everything The world holds good, sages see otherwise. What other men call 'sukha', that the saints Call 'dukkha' what the rest so name, That do the Ariyans know as happiness. Behold a Dhamma that's hard to apprehend. Hereby are baffled they that are not wise. Darkness is theirs, enmeshed by ignorance: Blindness is theirs, who cannot see the light.... The Buddha taught about objects, experienced by cittas through different doors, in order to cure people of their blindness. When we study the teachings we learn that there are six classes of objects (in Pali : arammana), which can be known by citta. The first class is visible object or ruparammana. The object which is experienced through the eye-door can only be the kind of rupa which is visible object. We can call it visible object or colour, it does not matter how we name it, but we should know that it is just that which is visible, which appears through the eyes. Visible object is not a thing or a person we may think of. When we think that we see a tree, animal or man, we think of concepts and there is not the knowing of visible object. The second class of arammana is sound, or saddarammana. The third class is smell, or gandharammana. The fourth class is taste, or rasarammana. The fifth class is the object which is experienced through the bodysense, photthabbarammana. This object comprises the following rupas: Solidity or the 'Element of Earth' (in Pali : pathavi-dhatu), which can be experienced as hardness or softness. Temperature or the 'Element of Fire' (in Pali : tejo-dhatu), which can be experienced as heat or cold. Motion or the 'Element of wind' (in Pali: vayo-dhatu), which can be experienced as motion or pressure. Solidity (earth), cohesion (water), temperature (fire) and motion (wind or air) are the 'four principal rupas' (maha-bhuta-rupas). Cohesion (apo-dhatu) can' t be experienced through the body-sense. When we touch water the characteristics of hardness or softness, heat or cold, motion or pressure can be directly experienced through the body-sense. The characteristic of cohesion can be experienced only through the mind-door; it is included in the sixth class of arammana, the dhammarammana. Dhammarammana comprises all objects which are not included in the first five classes. These can be experienced only through the mind-door. If one has not cultivated insight, one does not clearly know which object presents itself through which doorway, one is confused as to objects and doors; thus one is confused about the world. The ariyan is not confused about the world; he knows the arammanas which appear through the six doors as nama and rupa, not self. 14348 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Hi, Larry and all - I just looked the following over and noticed something: this is pure phenomenalism! Look it over, folks, that's what it is!! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/15/02 7:36:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > Chapter 16 (1) > > OBJECTS AND DOORS > > Citta knows or experiences something; it experiences an object. There > cannot be any citta without an object. When an object presents itself > through one of the five senses or through the mind-door, do we realize > that it is citta which experiences that object? When we do not see > things as they are, we think that a self experiences objects, and, > moreover, we take objects for permanent and for self. For example, when > we see a log of wood, we are used to thinking that the object which is > seen at that moment is the log of wood; we do not realize that only > visible object is the object which can be seen. When we touch the log of > wood, hardness or cold, for example, can be experienced through the > body-sense. We take the log of wood for a thing which lasts, but what we > call 'log of wood' are many different rupas which arise and fall away. > Only one characteristic of rupa can be experienced at a time, when it > presents itself. If we develop our understanding to see different > characteristics which appear through different doorways we will be able > to see things as they really are. > > The ariyan sees life in a way which is different from the way the > non-ariyan sees it. What the person who is not an ariyan takes for > happiness (in Pali : sukha), is for the ariyan sorrow (dukkha) ; what > for the non-ariyan is sorrow, is for the ariyan happiness. In the > 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Ch. IV, par. 136) > it is said in a verse : > > Things seen and heard, tastes, odours, what we touch, > Perceive, - - all, everything desirable, > Pleasant and sweet, while one can say 'it is', > These are deemed 'sukha' by both gods and men. > And when they cease to be they hold it woe. > The dissolution of the body-self > To ariyans seems 'sukha'. Everything > The world holds good, sages see otherwise. > What other men call 'sukha', that the saints > Call 'dukkha' what the rest so name, > That do the Ariyans know as happiness. > Behold a Dhamma that's hard to apprehend. > Hereby are baffled they that are not wise. > Darkness is theirs, enmeshed by ignorance: > Blindness is theirs, who cannot see the light.... > > The Buddha taught about objects, experienced by cittas through different > doors, in order to cure people of their blindness. When we study the > teachings we learn that there are six classes of objects (in Pali : > arammana), which can be known by citta. > > The first class is visible object or ruparammana. The object which is > experienced through the eye-door can only be the kind of rupa which is > visible object. We can call it visible object or colour, it does not > matter how we name it, but we should know that it is just that which is > visible, which appears through the eyes. Visible object is not a thing > or a person we may think of. When we think that we see a tree, animal or > man, we think of concepts and there is not the knowing of visible > object. > > The second class of arammana is sound, or saddarammana. > > The third class is smell, or gandharammana. > > The fourth class is taste, or rasarammana. > The fifth class is the object which is experienced through the > bodysense, photthabbarammana. This object comprises the following rupas: > > Solidity or the 'Element of Earth' (in Pali : pathavi-dhatu), which can > be experienced as hardness or softness. > > Temperature or the 'Element of Fire' (in Pali : tejo-dhatu), which can > be experienced as heat or cold. > > Motion or the 'Element of wind' (in Pali: vayo-dhatu), which can be > experienced as motion or pressure. > > Solidity (earth), cohesion (water), temperature (fire) and motion (wind > or air) are the 'four principal rupas' (maha-bhuta-rupas). Cohesion > (apo-dhatu) can' t be experienced through the body-sense. When we touch > water the characteristics of hardness or softness, heat or cold, motion > or pressure can be directly experienced through the body-sense. The > characteristic of cohesion can be experienced only through the > mind-door; it is included in the sixth class of arammana, the > dhammarammana. > > Dhammarammana comprises all objects which are not included in the first > five classes. These can be experienced only through the mind-door. > > If one has not cultivated insight, one does not clearly know which > object presents itself through which doorway, one is confused as to > objects and doors; thus one is confused about the world. The ariyan is > not confused about the world; he knows the arammanas which appear > through the six doors as nama and rupa, not self. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14349 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Larry, I have the books that you mentioned and I also find that Nina van Gorkom's "Cetasikas" book to be very useful. Let me explain my problem. Each week, I have to deliver a 75 minute Abhidhamma talk to about 75 Chinese laypeople, most of whom do not meditate. My objective is *NOT* to teach them new Pali terms or new ways of classifying cittas/cetasikas. I want to relate the subject to their daily lives and have them leave feeling that the talk was RELEVANT to them. I will start the talk with a technical definition (including characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause) and then move to relating the subject to daily life. I have definitions of Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, but I am having a problem linking them to daily life. Any suggestions? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Larry wrote: > Hi Rob M, I couldn't get into escribe to see what Sarah wrote, so this > may be redundant. > > There is a good description of the sobhana cetasikas in "A Comprehensive > Manual Of Abhidhamma" which is a reworking of M. Narada's translation of > Abhidhammatta Sangaha with commentary by B. Bodhi and U Rewata Dhamma. > > Here's a brief synopsis of the ones you are interested in: > > Tatramajjhattata (neutrality of mind) lit. "there in the middleness". > Synonym equanimity (upekkha), mental attitude of balance, detachment, > impartiality. Characteristic of conveying consciousness and mental > factors evenly. Function: prevent deficiency and excess, or prevent > partiality. "...like a charioteer who looks on with equanimity at the > thoroughbreds progressing evenly along the roadway." > "Neutrality of mind becomes the sublime quality of equanimity toward > living beings. As such it treats beings free from discrimination, > without preferences and prejudices, looking upon all as equal. This > equanimity should not be confused with its "near enemy," the > worldly-minded indifference due to ignorance." > > The next 6 pairs relate to citta and kaya ("kaya" in this instance > refers to the "body" of associated cetasikas). > > Passaddhi (tranquility) c&k: Characteristic: quieting down disturbances > in the mental body and conscousness. Function to crush such > disturbances. Manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Opposed to > restlessness and worry. > > Lahuta (lightness) c&k: Characteristic of subsiding of heaviness. > Function to crush heaviness. Manifested as non-sluggishness. Opposed to > sloth and torpor. > > Muduta (malleability) c&k: Characteristic of subsiding of rigidity in > citta and kaya. Function is to crush regidity. Manifested as > non-resistance. Opposed to wrong views and conceit. > > Kammannata (wieldiness): Characteristic of subsiding of unwieldiness in > citta & kaya. Function is to crush unwieldiness. Manifested as success > of citta and kaya in making something an object. "It should be regarded > as opposed to the remaining hindrances, which create unwieldiness of the > mental body and consciousnss." > > Pagunnata (proficiency): Characteristic of healthiness of kaya and > citta. Function is to crush unhealthiness. Manifested as absence of > disability. Opposed to lack of faith etc. which cause unhealthiness of > mental body and consciousness. > > Ujjukata (rectitude) = straightness: Characteristic of uprightness of > citta and kaya. Function is to crush tortuousness of c & k. > Manifestation is non-crookedness. Opposed to hypocrasy and fraudulance > which are crookedness in c & k. > > > I don't know what "remaining hindrances" means under kammannata but the > rest seems about as clear as abhidhamma gets. > > good luck,Larry 14350 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Hi all, is rupa arammana and rupa the same? Does hardness interrupt the bhavangha stream? What does the 'sensitive matter' (pasadarupa) that makes up the sense doors do? thanks, Larry 14351 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Rob, I don't have any ideas at the moment and my brain doesn't want to go there but coincidentally I was wondering today about a similar problem. I was trying to figure out what tadarammana does and I finally came up with something like what we do when we register a significant perception. We sort of take extra note of it. The problem is, this is a complex process that I am using to understand a single citta. The cittas in a citta process are practically on an atomic scale. And molecules don't behave like atoms, so to speak. So can the study of citta process tell us anything about experience? yes? Larry -------------- Rob M. wrote: Hi Larry, I have the books that you mentioned and I also find that Nina van Gorkom's "Cetasikas" book to be very useful. Let me explain my problem. Each week, I have to deliver a 75 minute Abhidhamma talk to about 75 Chinese laypeople, most of whom do not meditate. My objective is *NOT* to teach them new Pali terms or new ways of classifying cittas/cetasikas. I want to relate the subject to their daily lives and have them leave feeling that the talk was RELEVANT to them. I will start the talk with a technical definition (including characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause) and then move to relating the subject to daily life. I have definitions of Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, but I am having a problem linking them to daily life. Any suggestions? Thanks, Rob M :-) 14352 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Larry, I have a different view of tadarammana. Some of my students tried to directly link tadarammana to memory and I don't think that this is correct. There are a million million cittas in each second and therefore we run through the thought process hundreds of millions of times each second. The tadarammana citta "marks" or "registers" an object so that the subsequent thought process can use the same object. Think of the following sequence of thought processes: 1. An external object is reproduced at the mind door - Visible object / weak kamma 2. We construct a mind object; we perceive the whole picture - Mind object / weak kamma 3. We perceive colour - Mind object / weak kamma 4. We concieve the shape of the object - Mind object / strong kamma (oops, we've got a concept, now!) 5. We designate the object as a flower - Mind object / strong kamma 6. We judge that the flower is a rose - Mind object / strong kamma 7. We classify the object as a red rose - Mind object / strong kamma 8. We are attached to the red rose - Mind object / very strong kamma (lobha!) Each of the eight listed above are a separate thought process, each thought process with 17 cittas. Citta-niyama orders the sequence of cittas within a thought process, but it is the tadarammana citta that links the object from one thought process to the next. Following the eight thought processes listed above, there could be thousands of subsequent thought processes as we remember prior experiences with red roses (mostly lobha-mula, I'm sure!). If the object is "slight" then there is no tadarammana in a thought process and no continuation of the flow of thought processes. Each of these thought processes create kamma. In other words, we generate hundreds of millions of bits of kamma each second. This kammic energy is "accumulated" in the "warehouse of consciousness" (ayuhana-vinnana) until conditions arise which allow the appropriate vipaka to ripen. It is my understanding that this ayuhana-vinnana is the foundation of what we call "memory". I will not say that I am 100% sure of my interpretation... perhaps there is an Abhidhamma scholar who can correct me if I am wrong. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Larry wrote: > Hi Rob, I don't have any ideas at the moment and my brain doesn't want > to go there but coincidentally I was wondering today about a similar > problem. I was trying to figure out what tadarammana does and I finally > came up with something like what we do when we register a significant > perception. We sort of take extra note of it. The problem is, this is a > complex process that I am using to understand a single citta. The cittas > in a citta process are practically on an atomic scale. And molecules > don't behave like atoms, so to speak. So can the study of citta process > tell us anything about experience? > > yes? Larry > -------------- > Rob M. wrote: > Hi Larry, > I have the books that you mentioned and I also find that Nina van > Gorkom's "Cetasikas" book to be very useful. > Let me explain my problem. > Each week, I have to deliver a 75 minute Abhidhamma talk to about 75 > Chinese laypeople, most of whom do not meditate. My objective is *NOT* > to teach them new Pali terms or new ways of classifying > cittas/cetasikas. I want to relate the subject to their daily lives and > have them leave feeling that the talk was RELEVANT to them. > I will start the talk with a technical definition (including > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause) and then > move to relating the subject to daily life. I have definitions of > Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, but I am having a > problem linking them to daily life. > Any suggestions? > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14353 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Rob, tadarammana as a linking citta makes sense to me. I think this group has pretty much given up on understanding anything about memory. I vaguely recall reading an essay by Nyanaponika Thera defending abhidhamma's lack of having anything to say about it beyond sanna. Where did you get this info on ayuhanna-vinnana? As detailed and voluminous as it is, my impression is that abhidhamma is still only a sketch and perhaps that is all, or even more than, is necessary. As regards the question of whether the study of citta process can tell us anything about experience, one thing I could say is that we can use experience to understand citta process. And in so doing, we take a closer look at experience and perhaps learn a little about who we think we are. Your point about there being millions of cittas every micro-second is a bit overwhelming. I don't know what to do with that idea. It sounds like you have a pretty sharp group. I'm sure any discussions you would like to share would be provocative for all. best wishes, Larry 14354 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Larry, A couple of months back, I was discussing sloth and torpor. I mentioned that these cetasikas only occur in cittas that are prompted. A student asked, "Imagine that I am meditating. Sloth and torpor arise. What is it that prompted sloth and torpor?". I said that I did not know but would find out. I looked in the texts and could not find an answer. I asked the guy who teaches intermediate Abdhidhamma (Bro. Teo - really knowledgeable) and he did not know either. I then went to Dr. K. Sri. Dhammananda. I was nervous, afraid that I might embarass him because he might not know the answer. Chief Reverend never gives Dhamma talks on Abhidhamma, but I was told that he knew the subject well. I did not need to be afraid. He immediately told me that the prompting came from the ayuhanna- vinnana (he also used the more modern term "sub-conscious" to describe it, but warned against associating ayuhanna-vinnana with modern psychology definitions of sub-conscious). I mentioned that I had not come across the concept before. Chief Reverend explained that Therevada Abhidhamma did not put much emphasis on this concept, but Mahayana Abhidhamma dealt with it more fully. I left it at that. The fact that there are millions of thought processes every microsecond has important ethical implications. Obviously, it is imposssible to "be on active guard" watching this many things so quickly. The only answer, therefore, is to set up an "automatic response mechanism" (a habit - carita), to deal with the vipaka cittas as they occur in the thought process (i.e. during the determining citta when "free will" is exercised. A habit is only instilled trough repeated ACTION. Intellectualizing ain't gonna do it. In my earlier posting to Christine (message 14342), I talked about going for refuge and taking precepts as a type of ACTION that creates a kusala habit. Pariyatti -> Patipatti -> pativedha (study -> practice -> realization). I feel that it is important that we apply the Abhidhamma into our daily life as a practice and turn it into action wherever possible. Most of us study Abhidhamma to gain a Buddhist perspective on life. Perspective is extremely important. If we can gain a Buddhist perspective on life, we will perceive everything in a different way. Changing our perspective causes a fundamental shift in our perception of the world. As we gain a Buddhist perspective, the nature of the mind (lobha, dosa, moha) and the characteristics of reality (anicca, dukkha, anatta) will be obvious to us; not just at a "knowledge level" but at a deeper, "belief / confidence level". An untrained ear hears a melody. A trained ear instantly recognizes notes, structure, chord progressions, etc. in the music. The trained ear has a different, deeper perspective when listening to music. A "trained ear" requires considerable study of music theory followed up by practice of listening to music. Studying Abhidhamma is the first step in getting a "trained mind". The next step, which should be done in parallel with study, is the practice of Dana, Sila and Bhavana. With a "trained mind" we will see things as they truly are. A single day of practice of the Dhamma is more valuable than a hundred years of theoretical study. As you can see, my preferred focus on Abhidhamma is ACTION. The "homework" for the class is to do something kusala each week. Through this, they build habits and learn that there is a world of difference between "enjoying a Dhamma talk" and "listening to a Dhamma talk with joy". The pleasant feeling associated with kusala is far, far more powerful than the pleasant feeling associated with lobha. The pleasant feeling assocaiated with kusala is addictive. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Larry wrote: > Hi Rob, tadarammana as a linking citta makes sense to me. I think this > group has pretty much given up on understanding anything about memory. I > vaguely recall reading an essay by Nyanaponika Thera defending > abhidhamma's lack of having anything to say about it beyond sanna. Where > did you get this info on ayuhanna-vinnana? As detailed and voluminous as > it is, my impression is that abhidhamma is still only a sketch and > perhaps that is all, or even more than, is necessary. > > As regards the question of whether the study of citta process can tell > us anything about experience, one thing I could say is that we can use > experience to understand citta process. And in so doing, we take a > closer look at experience and perhaps learn a little about who we think > we are. Your point about there being millions of cittas every > micro-second is a bit overwhelming. I don't know what to do with that > idea. > > It sounds like you have a pretty sharp group. I'm sure any discussions > you would like to share would be provocative for all. > > best wishes, Larry 14355 From: goglerr Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:34pm Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Rob M (and Larry), I like the your below-mentioned sequence. Similar to Ledi Sayadaw's expalanation. A food for thought. I wanna ramble something on 'memory'. As to my understanding, all citta have sanna as their associated cetasika, as well as the other 6 universal cetasikas. Each cognitive process (mind or body process) run through very rapidly, that is to say, they arise and passes away very fast. So too, a 'collective of sanna', which are also arising and passing away with the cittas, formed the memory/recognition (memories), appearing as mental images, mental vision and recalling process. Sustaining/recalling those memories (long or short term) are conditioned and strenghten (or weaken) by other associated cetasikas too. A little sharing, goglerr --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, I have a different view of tadarammana. > > Some of my students tried to directly link tadarammana to memory and > I don't think that this is correct. > > There are a million million cittas in each second and therefore we > run through the thought process hundreds of millions of times each > second. The tadarammana citta "marks" or "registers" an object so > that the subsequent thought process can use the same object. > > Think of the following sequence of thought processes: > 1. An external object is reproduced at the mind door > - Visible object / weak kamma > 2. We construct a mind object; we perceive the whole picture > - Mind object / weak kamma > 3. We perceive colour > - Mind object / weak kamma > 4. We concieve the shape of the object > - Mind object / strong kamma (oops, we've got a concept, now!) > 5. We designate the object as a flower > - Mind object / strong kamma > 6. We judge that the flower is a rose > - Mind object / strong kamma > 7. We classify the object as a red rose > - Mind object / strong kamma > 8. We are attached to the red rose > - Mind object / very strong kamma (lobha!) > > Each of the eight listed above are a separate thought process, each > thought process with 17 cittas. Citta-niyama orders the sequence of > cittas within a thought process, but it is the tadarammana citta > that links the object from one thought process to the next. > > Following the eight thought processes listed above, there could be > thousands of subsequent thought processes as we remember prior > experiences with red roses (mostly lobha-mula, I'm sure!). > > If the object is "slight" then there is no tadarammana in a thought > process and no continuation of the flow of thought processes. > > Each of these thought processes create kamma. In other words, we > generate hundreds of millions of bits of kamma each second. This > kammic energy is "accumulated" in the "warehouse of consciousness" > (ayuhana-vinnana) until conditions arise which allow the appropriate > vipaka to ripen. It is my understanding that this ayuhana-vinnana is > the foundation of what we call "memory". > > I will not say that I am 100% sure of my interpretation... perhaps > there is an Abhidhamma scholar who can correct me if I am wrong. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- Larry wrote: > > Hi Rob, I don't have any ideas at the moment and my brain doesn't > want > > to go there but coincidentally I was wondering today about a > similar > > problem. I was trying to figure out what tadarammana does and I > finally > > came up with something like what we do when we register a > significant > > perception. We sort of take extra note of it. The problem is, this > is a > > complex process that I am using to understand a single citta. The > cittas > > in a citta process are practically on an atomic scale. And > molecules > > don't behave like atoms, so to speak. So can the study of citta > process > > tell us anything about experience? > > > > yes? Larry > > -------------- > > Rob M. wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > I have the books that you mentioned and I also find that Nina van > > Gorkom's "Cetasikas" book to be very useful. > > Let me explain my problem. > > Each week, I have to deliver a 75 minute Abhidhamma talk to about > 75 > > Chinese laypeople, most of whom do not meditate. My objective is > *NOT* > > to teach them new Pali terms or new ways of classifying > > cittas/cetasikas. I want to relate the subject to their daily > lives and > > have them leave feeling that the talk was RELEVANT to them. > > I will start the talk with a technical definition (including > > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause) and > then > > move to relating the subject to daily life. I have definitions of > > Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, but I am having a > > problem linking them to daily life. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14356 From: goglerr Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Rob M, --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > A couple of months back, I was discussing sloth and torpor. I > mentioned that these cetasikas only occur in cittas that are > prompted. A student asked, "Imagine that I am meditating. Sloth and > torpor arise. What is it that prompted sloth and torpor?". > Recently, I was going through Samyutta Nikaya (A New Translation by B.Bodhi) and I so happened to see the paragraph on page 1569. On this chapter - the nutriment for hindrances (snip)- The Buddha says: "And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen sloth and torpor and for the increase and expansion of arisen sloth and torpor? There are, bhikkhus, discontented, lethargy, lazy streching, drowsiness after meals, sluggishness of mind: frquently giving careless attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen sloth and torpor and for the increase and expansion of arisen sloth and torpor." I definitely know if we eat too much in the afternoon, will actually makes us drowsy!! :-) Goglerr 14357 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 5:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts (& the other thread) Dear Rob M (& Larry & All), Rob M wrote: “There is however, one point in this book that I am not sure about. When listing the factors required to constitute a breaking of the precept of "false speech", Bhikkhu Bodhi states that the conveying of a false impression is enough, it is not required that the other person believe what you have said is true. This would mean that teasing and joking would fall under the purview of this precept. In fact, Bhikkhu Bodhi states that joking, exaggerating and flattery are examples of false speech motivated by moha. I am not sure about this because, in cases such as this, there is no intention / volition / thought to deceive. Anybody have any comments on this?” ********* I’m just going to make a few comments (thoughts out loud) and use this area for another attempt at the practical applicability of equanimity and the 6 Pairs you asked about....hmm, useful for revision and consideration for me. (Please excuse any stating of the obvious, all of which I realize you both know). Firstly, if the citta isn’t kusala (wholesome), it must be akusala (unwholesome)-- in the javana process-- (except in the case of arahants) as I understand. So if the speech isn’t motivated by kusala cittas, it’s motivated by akusala cittas. This means whenever the cittas (moments of consciousness) aren’t concerned with dana, sila or bhavana (mental development --samatha or vipassana), they must be akusala and motivated by lobha, dosa or moha (greed, aversion or ignorance). Right speech or samma vaca is the moment --i.e. the citta -- which abstains from unwholesome speech. At the moment this sobhana citta (beautiful consciousness) arises, it has to be accompanied by all these sobhana mental factors we’re discussing--i.e equanimity and the 6 Pairs. Of course, as you say, the intention is of most importance and it can be difficult to tell when the citta is kusala or akusala or whether there is any intention to deceive in your examples. There are also different degrees of abstaining from ‘false speech’ discussed in the Atthasalini. Even though the sotapanna has eradicated lying, they may still slander, use harsh speech and idle talk. .Only the arahat has eradicated the tendency to idle speech completely. So just because the speech is motivated by moha and unwholesome, doesn’t mean it is ‘lying’ or a breach of the precepts. ***** In a day, working with students and living in a city, I speak a lot. Most of it is unwholesome, even if it wouldn’t be classified as false or breaking a precept. (I’ll leave others to find refs to exactly what is included here). What I realize is that much of what I used to think of as being quite harmless and ‘innocent’ is quite impure and the kilesa slowly become more apparent. When there is exaggerating, joking or flattery, they are usually motivated by lobha. There may not be an intention to deceive, but there is an intention to ‘gain’ We discussed the advice to Rahula before who was instructed ‘I will not speak a lie, even for fun’. If I say to Jon, ‘there’s a gigantic cockroach in the bath’, I know he won’t believe it is ‘gigantic’, but still the intention is to get his attention quickly and probably to ‘momentarily’ deceive him in this way. Of course, even if we don’t speak out or live on our own, these same unwholesome thoughts occur. Let me see if I can ‘apply’ our mental factors to these examples: 1. Tatramajjhattata/upekkha (equanimity). When there is the intention to attract the other’s interest in what we say or to create fun with a child, there is no ‘impartiality’ or ‘mental attitude of balance’ at that moment. 2.Passaddhi c&k (tranquility). At these moments of joking and exagerration, there is restlessness which accompanies all akusala cittas. There is no calmness which accompanies moments of metta and dana, for example.We’re restlessly trying to create an ‘effect’. 3.Lahuta c&k (lightness). When we’re carried away with our ‘story’ or the fun of the situation, there is no energy for kusala states. There is laziness of the mental states. As you said, sloth and torpor arise with ‘prompted’ cittas, destroying any inclination for mental development, dana, metta or sila. They can arise at any time, even when conventionally we may say we’re ‘full of energy’ such as when we’re teasing or having fun. The cittas are not ‘light’ at these times in the sense of being free from ‘heavy’ kilesa. 4.Muduta c&k (malleability). When we’re pleased with the effect of our joke or flattery or by the story, mana can arise very easily I think. One is pleased with the effect on the children when they enjoy the joke. If we think it is wholesome, there may be wrong view too.At these times there is mental rigidity or lack of appreciation of metta, or other kinds of wholesome staes. One is ‘fixed’ on the course of lobha or moha. 5.Kammannata c&k (wieldiness). Wieldiness is opposed to the ‘remaining hindrances’ of lobha and dosa in particular, I think. When we’re talking about the ‘gigantic cockroach’ (either with lobha or dosa), there’s no calm or patience for metta or dana at that time. The mind is ‘rigid’ like the untempered gold and ‘fixed’ on its story. 6.Pugunnata c&k (proficiency). When there is unwholesome or false speech, there is a lack of competence or cinfidence in the value of skilful speech. the harm of the unwholesomeness isn’t seen at that moment and so there is an ‘inefficiency’ in the development of wholesome states. 7.Ujjukata c&k (rectitude). These are the easiest to apply to our examples. When there is ‘rectitude’ or ‘uprightness’, they ‘crush crookedness’ (Atth.) and are the opponents of ‘deception and craftiness’. It may seem like a real storm in a tea-cup to consider the trick on my students or the exagerration as examples of ‘deception and craftiness’, but I find it helpful (though rather disconcerting to consider). This one is also the opponent of insincere flattery and hypocrisy and hinting for gain. ********** I know I haven’t really answered your question above -- hopefully someone else may. Thanks for prompting these reflections and hope there’s something of use on the practical applicability of these states. Sarah ====================================================== 14358 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth Dear All, When I replied yesterday on the ‘rebirth theme’, I quoted the following: .> "After discerning the material body's conditions in this way, he again > discerns the mental body in the way beginnng: 'due to eye and to visible > object eye-consciousness arises' (Sii72, Mi,111). > > When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is > due > to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its > occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence > will be due to conditions. > > When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is > to > say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus: "Was I in > the past.......... and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the > future stated thus: "Shall I be in the future?...., and also the > six > kinds of uncertainty about the present stated thus: "Am > I?..."(Mi,8) > (end quote from Vism XIX,5) > ***** I just came across one of Gogglerr’s helpful posts on rebirth consciousness (to Larry) and I’d like to repost the main part here as I think it may be a little clearer to some of us as to why the understanding of present namas and rupas is the only way to develop confidence that the same process occurred in the past and will continue in future at the end of this ‘life’.The applicability of the details from the Abhidhamma may be more apparent in this area too: ***** “Birth and death are broad conventional phrases to denote arising and passing away of nama and rupa. Patisandhi citta, cuti citta, and other kinds of cittas are functional phrases to indicate the basic functions of the cittas. Therefore the functions make each citta unique in abhidhamma sense. Every citta (including patisandhi and cuti citta) has to undergo three phases, i.e the arising, the middle and the passing away (decay). For patisandhi and cuti citta, in an existencial realm (a life faculty) e.g a human realm, the first citta in that human existence is patisandhi citta and the last citta is cuti citta. In other words, another angle, at the last moment we die that is cuti citta is followed immediately by patisandhi citta of the next life. So they are two different cittas. Patisandhi citta is a single citta arising together with cetasikas. At the moment of physical death, either one of the three objects experience at any of the 6 sense doors, i.e. a kamma, a sign of kamma and a sign of destiny. Long long discussion, difficult to eleborate but kindly refer to Abhidhammattha Sangaha, translated by B. Bodhi, V$435, pg 221 and III$17 pg 136-139. “ ********** Thanks Goggy. Sarah ===== 14359 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:28pm Subject: Re: Refuge and Precepts Dear Ruth, Howard, Rob M, Jean-Francois, and Sarah, Thank you all for your helpful replies on this topic. Ruth - you say, "One is supposed to approach this undertaking without any doubts - many of which I still harbor." >>>Any doubts that you feel would more than likely be things we have all felt in the past or, for some of us, still feel currently. For instance, I came to a Buddhism that was presented as a sweet tranquil balm - a solution to my suffering during a divorce. Under those circumstances, I had *great* difficulty coming to terms with Siddhartha Gautama leaving his wife immediately after the birth of their baby Rahula. As I often deal with women in just these searingly painful circumstances in my everday work, I still find some references and attitudes to women and children in the scriptures very difficult to comprehend spiritually.<<< Rob M - >>> Sarah has given an excellent answer to your query re "false speech". May I just add a sutta quote on Pointless Talk.... I always appreciate people's musings, loved your story, and didn't find it longwinded at all. :) p. 1843 Mahavagga of the Samyutta Nikaya (Saccasamyutta) 10 (10) Pointless Talk "Bhikkus, do not engage in the various kinds of pointless talk, that is, talk about kings, thieves, and ministers of state; talk about armies, dangers, and wars; talk about food, drink, garments, and beds; talk about garlands and scents; talk about relations, vehicles, villages, towns, cities and countries; talk about women and talk about heroes; street talk and talk by the well; talk about those departed in days gone by; rambling chitchat; speculation about the world and about the sea; talk about becoming this or that. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this talk is unbeneficial, irrelevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and does not lead to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana."<<< Howard - >>>Thank you for your post. I think how you see the matter is how I see the matter too, though I was not able to express myself so well.<<< Jean-francois - >>>Glad to hear Walpula Rahula's opinion. I never doubted I was a Buddhist - I just feel the need to be able to express the reverence, the sense of sacredness, more formally. ..... hmmm ... a ritual to thank your boss when he gives you a big file :) I must remember that! >>> Sarah - >>> I really appreciated your post - right speech is the hardest precept for me to keep. My tongue literally runs away with me sometimes. Perhaps it gets too much practice, being the main tool I use for my work. One question ..... I don't suppose (in line with your post) if one is moved to severely edit one's past posts, that it would be allowed? :):) metta, Christine 14360 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 5:35pm Subject: Jon/ More on Spirals Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi again, Jon - I just read the first two suttas from the book of tens in the A. Nikaya, and they are quite relevant to what we were discussing (growing out of VI, 50). In the first of these, the Buddha puts forth the following chain of conditionality: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta of the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality as above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the near shore to the far shore." This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, and is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the factors affect each other. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/13/02 10:49:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/13/02 9:58:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > > > > Howard > > > > I thought your diagrammatic representation below to be an interesting way > > of presenting the sutta (probably comes naturally to a mathematician!). > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - > > > It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what > > is > > > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara > > > Nikaya > > > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). > Diagramatically, > > what is said there is the following: > > > > > > Sense control > > > -> > > > Virtue > > > -> > > > Right concentration > > > -> > > > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > > > -> > > > Revulsion and dispassion > > > -> > > > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > > > > > The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite > > pivotal. > > > That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. > > > > I do not for a moment question the importance of Right Concentration (or > > of any of the 8 path factors for that matter). > > > > However, would you not agree that the sense control, virtue, > > concentration, knowledge and vision, etc, are to be developed > > concurrently, as far as that is possible in the individual case, each > > supporting the development of the other, and not in an exclusively > > sequential manner? > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would, indeed, agree with that. In fact, I picture bhavana (in its > > general sense) as proceeding rather like an ever-widening spiral, so that > "later" factors developed in an interior portion of the spiral are > conditions > for "early" factors developed in more exterior portions (if you can > envisage > what I mean). This sutta happens to display certain basic > conditionalities. > I think it is important in that it shows the fundamental role that right > concentration plays. It shows it as a condition for the arising of > liberative > wisdom, and, by doing so, it may serve as a cautionary note for any folks > who > might happen to downplay the importance of concentration at that formative > stage of practice. > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before > > Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before > > virtue. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That would be a great error. On that basis, one could never get > started! ;-) This is exactly my point with regard to spiral development. A > degree of sense control leads to a degree of virtue, ..., leads to a degree > > of wisdom, leads, yet again, to a further degree of sense control, etc, > around and around, wider and wider. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Jon > > > > > ========================== > With metta, > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14361 From: Ruth Klein Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts Christine (et al), > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:28 AM > Ruth - you say, "One is supposed to approach this undertaking without > any doubts - many of which I still harbor." > >>>Any doubts that you feel would more than likely be things we have > all felt in the past or, for some of us, still feel currently. For > instance, I came to a Buddhism that was presented as a sweet tranquil > balm - a solution to my suffering during a divorce. Under those > circumstances, I had *great* difficulty coming to terms with > Siddhartha Gautama leaving his wife immediately after the birth of > their baby Rahula. As I often deal with women in just these > searingly painful circumstances in my everday work, I still find some > references and attitudes to women and children in the scriptures very > difficult to comprehend spiritually.<<< I couldn't agree more! One of my most frequent doubts is the g-dlike reverence (bowing, statues, etc) to Siddhartha Gautama. I understand, intellectually, the significance of a man achieving enlightenment. And that bowing, to someone brought up in an Asian culture, is a gesture of respect, and used for all teachers, dignitaries, etc - almost like a Western handshake. (Ok, not quite, but you get the idea... its a cultural thing.) However, I cannot help but stop myself from setting up my own altar or bowing to the Buddha, simply because of the conditioned beliefs of "Thou shalt have no other g-d before me." and "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above...." Also, if I am not mistaken, though the earlier suttas expound that Siddhartha Gautama was a man, some of the later ones (and works such as the Buddhavamsa) have elevated him past the human realm to a superman, Maha-Purisa. (See George Bond: "The Word of the Buddha: The Tipitaka and its Interpretation in Theravada Buddhism", M.D. Gunasena & Co, 1982). I don't know if I will ever 'resolve' these internal conflicts; but I need to explore them further. > Sarah - > >>> I really appreciated your post - right speech is the hardest > precept for me to keep. My tongue literally runs away with me > sometimes. Perhaps it gets too much practice, being the main tool I > use for my work. > One question ..... I don't suppose (in line with your post) if one > is moved to severely edit one's past posts, that it would be > allowed? :):) > !!!! :) Ruth 14362 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:00pm Subject: RE: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Dear Rob: Welcome to DSG. It's good to know that there is a dhamma class near Singapore. Maybe one of these days, I will join you. Regarding Tatramajjhattata(TMT) and the six pairs of kusala, I'm listening to the talks by K.Sujin on Sobhanadhamma (in Thai). She spends quite a lot of time on these. TMT is very relevant to our lives indeed. TMT is the cetasika that makes you have right thoughts (among many other functions, discussed later) not to violate the precepts, be kind to people etc. From the moment one listens to dhamma and begins to understand the teaching, and what your lives and the world are all about, TMT is already hard at work directing one to the right thoughts. The moment one knows that one is not being kind to others and begins to be otherwise, is also TMT. Any moment of kusala arises because of TMT. K.Sujin has also included many levels of panna in this TMT. Your class won't be until Sunday, so I have some time to dig up the tapes or CD. Later, jaran Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:29:09 -0000 From: "robmoult" Subject: I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople. The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on application in daily life. I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas? 14363 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 0:51am Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Jaran, As it turns out, this weeks class is cancelled because we are having a Sangdikha Dana, so my talk isn't until next week. Is this material available in English (I don't speak Thai)? I will be in Singapore this Thursday evening and Friday morning. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "Jaran Jainhuknan" wrote: > Dear Rob: > > Welcome to DSG. It's good to know that there is a dhamma class near > Singapore. Maybe one of these days, I will join you. > > Regarding Tatramajjhattata(TMT) and the six pairs of kusala, I'm > listening to the talks by K.Sujin on Sobhanadhamma (in Thai). > > She spends quite a lot of time on these. > > TMT is very relevant to our lives indeed. > > TMT is the cetasika that makes you have right thoughts (among many other > functions, discussed later) not to violate the precepts, be kind to > people etc. From the moment one listens to dhamma and begins to > understand the teaching, and what your lives and the world are all > about, TMT is already hard at work directing one to the right thoughts. > > The moment one knows that one is not being kind to others and begins to > be otherwise, is also TMT. > > Any moment of kusala arises because of TMT. > > K.Sujin has also included many levels of panna in this TMT. Your class > won't be until Sunday, so I have some time to dig up the tapes or CD. > > Later, > jaran > > Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:29:09 -0000 > From: "robmoult" > Subject: > > I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople. > > The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on > application in daily life. > > I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas? 14364 From: search Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:40am Subject: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts Christine wrote: >>>>Glad to hear Walpula Rahula's opinion. I never doubted I was a > Buddhist - I just feel the need to be able to express the reverence, > the sense of sacredness, more formally. ..... That is exactly what I feel, too... Jean-François 14365 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Hallo Jean Francois, Welcome to the group. I am very glad you have joined and I hope it will be useful to you and that we can correspond about many kinds of interesting dhamma topics, Best wishes, from Nina. > > A few words to Nina: Hallo Nina, hoe gaat het? > > 14366 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Dear Rob M, welcome to the group. Yes, I would be interested to hear questions from your students about Abhidhamma. As to the six pairs, you could get also more info from Ven Nyanaponika, Abhidhamma Studies. He deals with the six pairs and it is very interesting what he wrote. We can see that there are many sobhana cetasikas assisting kusala citta. You could ask your group whether they can notice a difference when the citta is akusala or kusala. One of the pairs pertains to citta and one to the cetasikas. Let us take feeling: can they notice the difference between pleasant feeling that is akusala and that is kusala? Akusala dhammas are rigid, inert, stiff, crooked. When the six pairs assist kusala citta, the citta and cetasikas are not rigid, inert, stiff, crooked. We cannot catch all these cetasikas, but the Buddha classified them all, and this helps us to see that citta arises because of very intricate conditions. Nobody can control what citta arises at a particular moment. However much we want citta to be kusala, when there are not the appropriate conditions, it is impossible. There were former posts about tatramajjhattata. People get confused about it and wonder whether it is upekkha feeling. You will see. You could ask the audience lots of questions to make them think, and I am sure you give them examples from daily life. They won't fall asleep. Wishing you success, Nina. op 15-07-2002 07:29 schreef robmoult op <>: > I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople. 14367 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts (& the other thread) Hi Sarah, Great stuff!! Teasing, joking, exaggerating, etc. is definitely akusala. However, there is lots of stuff that is akusala that doesn't get elevated to the level of "violating a precept". Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob M (& Larry & All), > > Rob M wrote: > > "There is however, one point in this book that I am not sure about. > When listing the factors required to constitute a breaking of the > precept of "false speech", Bhikkhu Bodhi states that the conveying > of a false impression is enough, it is not required that the other > person believe what you have said is true. This would mean that > teasing and joking would fall under the purview of this precept. In > fact, Bhikkhu Bodhi states that joking, exaggerating and flattery > are examples of false speech motivated by moha. I am not sure about > this because, in cases such as this, there is no intention / > volition / thought to deceive. Anybody have any comments on this?" > ********* > I'm just going to make a few comments (thoughts out loud) and use this > area for another attempt at the practical applicability of equanimity and > the 6 Pairs you asked about....hmm, useful for revision and consideration > for me. (Please excuse any stating of the obvious, all of which I realize > you both know). > > Firstly, if the citta isn't kusala (wholesome), it must be akusala > (unwholesome)-- in the javana process-- (except in the case of arahants) > as I understand. So if the speech isn't motivated by kusala cittas, it's > motivated by akusala cittas. This means whenever the cittas (moments of > consciousness) aren't concerned with dana, sila or bhavana (mental > development --samatha or vipassana), they must be akusala and motivated by > lobha, dosa or moha (greed, aversion or ignorance). Right speech or samma > vaca is the moment --i.e. the citta -- which abstains from unwholesome > speech. At the moment this sobhana citta (beautiful consciousness) arises, > it has to be accompanied by all these sobhana mental factors we're > discussing--i.e equanimity and the 6 Pairs. > > Of course, as you say, the intention is of most importance and it can be > difficult to tell when the citta is kusala or akusala or whether there is > any intention to deceive in your examples. There are also different > degrees of abstaining from `false speech' discussed in the Atthasalini. > Even though the sotapanna has eradicated lying, they may still slander, > use harsh speech and idle talk. .Only the arahat has eradicated the > tendency to idle speech completely. So just because the speech is > motivated by moha and unwholesome, doesn't mean it is `lying' or a breach > of the precepts. > ***** > In a day, working with students and living in a city, I speak a lot. Most > of it is unwholesome, even if it wouldn't be classified as false or > breaking a precept. (I'll leave others to find refs to exactly what is > included here). What I realize is that much of what I used to think of as > being quite harmless and `innocent' is quite impure and the kilesa slowly > become more apparent. > > When there is exaggerating, joking or flattery, they are usually motivated > by lobha. There may not be an intention to deceive, but there is an > intention to `gain' We discussed the advice to Rahula before who was > instructed `I will not speak a lie, even for fun'. If I say to Jon, > `there's a gigantic cockroach in the bath', I know he won't believe it is > `gigantic', but still the intention is to get his attention quickly and > probably to `momentarily' deceive him in this way. Of course, even if we > don't speak out or live on our own, these same unwholesome thoughts occur. > > Let me see if I can `apply' our mental factors to these examples: > > 1. Tatramajjhattata/upekkha (equanimity). When there is the intention to > attract the other's interest in what we say or to create fun with a child, > there is no `impartiality' or `mental attitude of balance' at that moment. > > 2.Passaddhi c&k (tranquility). At these moments of joking and > exagerration, there is restlessness which accompanies all akusala cittas. > There is no calmness which accompanies moments of metta and dana, for > example.We're restlessly trying to create an `effect'. > > 3.Lahuta c&k (lightness). When we're carried away with our `story' or the > fun of the situation, there is no energy for kusala states. There is > laziness of the mental states. As you said, sloth and torpor arise with > `prompted' cittas, destroying any inclination for mental development, > dana, metta or sila. They can arise at any time, even when conventionally > we may say we're `full of energy' such as when we're teasing or having > fun. The cittas are not `light' at these times in the sense of being free > from `heavy' kilesa. > > 4.Muduta c&k (malleability). When we're pleased with the effect of our > joke or flattery or by the story, mana can arise very easily I think. One > is pleased with the effect on the children when they enjoy the joke. If we > think it is wholesome, there may be wrong view too.At these times there is > mental rigidity or lack of appreciation of metta, or other kinds of > wholesome staes. One is `fixed' on the course of lobha or moha. > > 5.Kammannata c&k (wieldiness). Wieldiness is opposed to the `remaining > hindrances' of lobha and dosa in particular, I think. When we're talking > about the `gigantic cockroach' (either with lobha or dosa), there's no > calm or patience for metta or dana at that time. The mind is `rigid' like > the untempered gold and `fixed' on its story. > > 6.Pugunnata c&k (proficiency). When there is unwholesome or false speech, > there is a lack of competence or cinfidence in the value of skilful > speech. the harm of the unwholesomeness isn't seen at that moment and so > there is an `inefficiency' in the development of wholesome states. > > 7.Ujjukata c&k (rectitude). These are the easiest to apply to our > examples. When there is `rectitude' or `uprightness', they `crush > crookedness' (Atth.) and are the opponents of `deception and craftiness'. > It may seem like a real storm in a tea-cup to consider the trick on my > students or the exagerration as examples of `deception and craftiness', > but I find it helpful (though rather disconcerting to consider). This one > is also the opponent of insincere flattery and hypocrisy and hinting for > gain. > ********** > I know I haven't really answered your question above -- hopefully someone > else may. Thanks for prompting these reflections and hope there's > something of use on the practical applicability of these states. > > Sarah > ====================================================== 14368 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Hi Nina, Thanks for the input. I will consult Ven Nyanaponika's book as well. I am curious. Have you considered releasing an expanded version of ADL, to include some of the issues & misunderstandings raised in this group? Thanks, Rob :-) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, welcome to the group. Yes, I would be interested to hear > questions from your students about Abhidhamma. > As to the six pairs, you could get also more info from Ven Nyanaponika, > Abhidhamma Studies. He deals with the six pairs and it is very interesting > what he wrote. > We can see that there are many sobhana cetasikas assisting kusala citta. You > could ask your group whether they can notice a difference when the citta is > akusala or kusala. One of the pairs pertains to citta and one to the > cetasikas. Let us take feeling: can they notice the difference between > pleasant feeling that is akusala and that is kusala? Akusala dhammas are > rigid, inert, stiff, crooked. When the six pairs assist kusala citta, the > citta and cetasikas are not rigid, inert, stiff, crooked. We cannot catch > all these cetasikas, but the Buddha classified them all, and this helps us > to see that citta arises because of very intricate conditions. Nobody can > control what citta arises at a particular moment. However much we want citta > to be kusala, when there are not the appropriate conditions, it is > impossible. > There were former posts about tatramajjhattata. People get confused about it > and wonder whether it is upekkha feeling. You will see. You could ask the > audience lots of questions to make them think, and I am sure you give them > examples from daily life. They won't fall asleep. > Wishing you success, Nina. > op 15-07-2002 07:29 schreef robmoult op <>: > > > I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala > > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya > > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, > > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople. 14369 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:23am Subject: ADL ch. 16 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 16 (2) The 'Discourse on the Six Sixes' (Middle Length Sayings III. No.148) is very helpful for the understanding of realities which present themselves through the six doors. When the Buddha was staying in the Jeta Grove in Anathapindika's monastery, he explained to the monks about the six 'internal sense-fields' and the six 'external sense-fields' (in Pali : ayatana). The six 'internal sense-fields' are the six doors through which objects are experienced. The six 'external sense-fields' are the objects, experienced through the six doors. The Buddha then explained about the six classes of consciousness which arise in dependence on the six doors and about the objects experienced through the six doors. He also explained about six kinds of contact (phassa), six kinds of feeling conditioned by the six kinds of contact, and six kinds of craving conditioned by the six kinds of feeling. Thus there are 'Six Sixes', six groups of six realities. The Buddha then explained about the person who has attachments, aversion or ignorance with regard to what he experiences through the six doors. We read : 'Monks, visual consciousness arises because of eye and visible object, the meeting of the three is contact; an experience arises conditioned by contact that is pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant. He, being impinged on by a pleasant feeling, delights, rejoices and persists in cleaving to it; a tendency to attachment is latent in him. Being impinged on by a painful feeling, he grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast and falls into disillusion; a tendency to repugnance is latent in him. Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the satisfaction nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it really is; a tendency to ignorance is latent in him...' The same is said with regard to the other doorways. The person who has 'wise attention' instead of attachment, aversion or ignorance can make an end to the cycle of birth and death. Further on we read : '... He, being impinged on by pleasant feeling, does not delight, rejoice or persist in cleaving to it; a tendency to attachment is not latent in him. Being impinged on by a painful feeling, he does not grieve, mourn, lament, beat his breast or fall into disillusion ; a tendency to repugnance is not latent in him. Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he comprehends the origin and the going down and the satisfaction and the peril of that feeling and the escape as it really is, a tendency to ignorance is not latent in him. That he, monks, by getting rid of any tendency to attachment to a pleasant feeling, by driving out any tendency to repugnance for a painful feeling, by rooting out any tendency to ignorance concerning a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, by getting rid of ignorance, by making knowledge arise, should here and now be an end-maker of dukkha--this situation exists. Seeing this thus, monks, the instructed disciple of the ariyans turns away from eye, turns away from material shapes, turns away from visual consciousness, turns away from impact on the eye, turns away from feeling, turns away from craving. He turns away from ear, he turns away from sounds.... He turns away from nose, he turns away from smells.... He turns away from tongue, he turns away from tastes.... He turns away from body, he turns away from touches.... He turns away from mind, he turns away from mental states, he turns away from mental consciousness, he turns away from impact on the mind, he turns away from feeling, he turns away from craving, Turning away he is dispassionate; by dispassion he is freed; in freedom is the knowledge that he is freed, and he comprehends: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so .' Thus spoke the Lord. Delighted, these monks rejoiced in what the Lord had said. And while this exposition was being given the minds of as many as sixty monks were freed from the cankers without grasping.' 14370 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the satisfaction nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it really is; a tendency to ignorance is latent in him..." Greetings group, could someone fill in the main points of the above: origin, going down, satisfaction, peril, escape. thanks, Larry 14371 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] Refuge and Precepts Dear Christine, My view about this may be inadaquate for your self expression, but let me give an alternative viewpoint from a layperson who seldom goes to the temple, and hence hardly ever follows the rituals of "going for refuge", or "taking" the sila from the sangha. Although I am born a Buddhist (well, isn't most everyone from Thailand?), I don't think I can say I have taken refuge in the triple gems until recently. Whenever there is sati, which is caused by having listened to the teachings, I feel that the sati is the refuge that would have been impossible hadn't the Buddha taught for 45 years as a samma-sambuddha (and accumulating parami for such a purpose for over 4 unccountable aeons), impossible hadn't the sangha strived to retain the teachings in whatever way they can for all these centuries, and impossible hadn't K. Sujin taught and explained the Buddha's teachings so tirelessly and exactly for all these years. I have done the rituals of going for refuge, and taking the sila, but they had no meaning until the Buddha's teachings became more accessible which cause subsequent changes impossible otherwise. The Buddha accumulated the 10 perfections for over 4 aeons exactly for one purpose: so that others may follow in his path. He taught for 45 years also for that purpose, and the sangha had kept the dhamma also for that purpose. Whenever I follow the Buddha's teachings (and hence, follow the path), there is no other higher reverence I can give to the triple gems. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 3:13 AM > Subject: [dsg] Refuge and Precepts > > > Hi everyone, > I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by > Bhikkhu Bodhi. About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this > topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a > meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and > remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism. It seemed > at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a > lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or > society. Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not > familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary. It > would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole > booklet is quite inspiring to read. > I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder > what others think about this possibility? > Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the > Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action > or speech of some sort. But should these feelings be discouraged? > Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any > alternatives? > > metta, > Christine > > > "Going for Refuge > The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with > its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any > other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter it > we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the > teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem -- > that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the > Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the community > of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the going > for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation of > the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its > lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's > teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while > those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by making > the same threefold profession: > > Buddham saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Buddha; > Dhammam saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Dhamma; > > Sangham saranam gacchami > I go for refuge to the Sangha. > > As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in > comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its importance > should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts > direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the Buddhist > path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is > vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature and > in its implications for future development along the path. To open up > the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, we > here present an examination of the process in terms of its most > significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following > eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a > refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going > for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for > refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the > similes for the refuges." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref 14372 From: search Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:52am Subject: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts When I practiced zazen, there was a ritual when we entered the dojo. One of the gesture was sign of respect in front of the statue of the Buddha. But I remember the words of a monk I meditated with. These words were the same as the wors of a "sensei". When you bow in front of a wooden statue is a kind of "showing outside" the respect to your own "nature-of-Buddha". You know that the statue is only wood, only a statue. But it is simply a symbol of your nature-of-Buddha. Sorry if I didn't use the right terms in English. Jean-François ---------- >De : "Ruth Klein" >Objet : RE: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts >Date : Mar 16 juil 2002 14:44 > > I couldn't agree more! One of my most frequent doubts is the g-dlike > reverence (bowing, statues, etc) to Siddhartha Gautama. I understand, > intellectually, the significance of a man achieving enlightenment. And that > bowing, to someone brought up in an Asian culture, is a gesture of respect, > and used for all teachers, dignitaries, etc - almost like a Western > handshake. (Ok, not quite, but you get the idea... its a cultural thing.) 14373 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Hi Larry, --- <> wrote: > "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither > painful nor pleasant, he > does not comprehend the origin nor the going down > nor the satisfaction > nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it > as it really is; a > tendency to ignorance is latent in him..." > origin: the conditional, dependently arisen nature of feeling, i.e. feeling has causal factors such as contact, sense organ, extern object, bare consciousness of object as conditions for its arising. going down: the impermanent nature of feeling, that feeling arises, then dissipates, fades away, ceases satisfaction: what is pleasing and delightful in feeling peril: the unsatisfactoriness of craving impermanent feeling, the insatiability, the inability of feeling to satisfy or bring lasting happiness escape from feeling: through detachment, non-attachment, non-clinging, seeing it's true nature -fk 14374 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts Hi Chris, Ruth, rest of the gang, --- Ruth Klein wrote: [on ritual, taking refuge] > I don't know if I will ever 'resolve' these internal > conflicts; but I need > to explore them further. > I'm about the last Buddhist to endorse ceremony, religious paraphernalia, rituals, but as far as I can tell the Buddhist refuge ceremony is pretty inoccuous. It's not like you're signing over your soul to the Buddha, swearing loyalty to a cult, or professing to have absolute faith in completely unverifiable claims (Jesus Christ is my lord and savior...) The Buddhist refuge and precepts are all pretty common sensical things that people ought to do on their own anyway. The Buddha, like the Buddhas before him and the Buddhas after him only claimed to rediscover universal truth, the same truth accessible to all who put forth the effort. In other words, I can take refuge in my house from harsh weather, take refuge in the U.s. constitution without feeling blackmailed, and take refuge in the qualities of one who is awakened, take refuge in the teachings that lead to awakening, and take refuge in those who devote their life to propogating these teachings without feeling like it's worshipping a deity or joining a cult. In a very real sense, just seeking truth, trying to know truth directly is implicitly taking refuge in the triple jewel, whether we perform a ceremony or not. Taking refuges is really nothing to feel squeamish about, unless you belong in a cult-like religion that claims to have a monopoly on truth and every other religion is wrong. :-) -fk 14375 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Larry, seeing the 5 aspects of feeling (origin, dissipation, gratification, danger, escape) is a very prominent theme throughout the pali canon. From personal experience I can tell you it will definitely sink in, if due to nothing else except sheer repetition. Here's one of my favorite passages: If one feels joy, but knows not feeling's nature, bent towards greed, he will not find deliverance. If one feels pain, but knows not feeling's nature, bent toward hate, he will not find deliverance. And even neutral feeling which as peaceful the Lord of Wisdom has proclaimed, if, in attachment, he should cling to it, he will not be free from the round of ill. And having done so, in this very life will be free from cankers, free from taints. Mature in knowledge, firm in Dhamma's ways, when once his life-span ends, his body breaks, all measure and concept he has transcended. 14376 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 5:49pm Subject: "practice"/"practical"/"application" in Nya's Abhidhamma Studies.. Hi all: I am enjoying my souvenir from Sri Lanka: Many books form PBS. ... and I have a quick question: I am reading this "Abhidhamma Studies" Preface and Chapter one. I think it's a good book. Both Bhikhu Bodhi and Ven. Nyanaponika Thera clearly differentiate Samatha and Vipassana meditation. One question I have is the words like "practice","practical" and "application" (in Concluding Remarks pp 16-17), do they belong there? In my opinion, they do if the word 'practice' and practical' mean observe or being aware of dhamma in daily life, and 'application' means make dhamma relevant to daily life. But I am not sure in what context he means. What do you all think? Jaran ------ Jaran Jai-nhuknan, BrukerDaltonics Singapore PTE 77 Science Park Drive, #01-01 CINTECH III, Singapore 118256 voice: +(65)6774-7702 ext. 815 fax: +(65)6774-7703 14377 From: Ruth Klein Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 6:41pm Subject: RE: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts Your English is great... however, the Japanese :) ??? What is a sensei? Ruth > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:53 PM > Subject: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts > > > When I practiced zazen, there was a ritual when we entered the > dojo. One of > the gesture was sign of respect in front of the statue of the Buddha. > > But I remember the words of a monk I meditated with. These words were the > same as the wors of a "sensei". > > When you bow in front of a wooden statue is a kind of "showing > outside" the > respect to your own "nature-of-Buddha". > > You know that the statue is only wood, only a statue. But it is simply a > symbol of your nature-of-Buddha. > > Sorry if I didn't use the right terms in English. > > Jean-François > 14378 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 6:46pm Subject: Re: "practice"/"practical"/"application" in Nya's Abhidhamma Studies.. Hi Jaran, I'm glad you got some great books in Sri Lanka too. :) For those who do not have the book 'Abhidhamma Studies - Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time' by Venerable Nyanaponika Thera, edited and with an introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi, - the pages 16 and 17 that you mention are excerpted below, with the words in question capitalised. metta, Christine "CONCLUDING REMARKS AND A WARNING Taking a middle path between overrating or underrating the Abhidhamma, we might say: The teachings in the Sutta Pitaka with an Abhidhamma flavor - that is, those given in precise philosophical terminology - are certainly indispensable for the understanding and PRACTICE of the Dhamma; and the elaboration of these teachings in the Abhidhamma proper may prove very helpful, and in some cases even necessary, for both understanding and PRACTICE. As to the codified Abhidhamma Pitaka, familiarity with all its details is certainly not compulsory; but if it is studied and APPLIED in the way briefly indicated in these pages, this will surely nurture a true understanding of actuality and aid the work of PRACTICE aimed at liberation. Also, if suitable presented, the Abhidhamma can provide those with a philosophical bent a stimulating approach to the Dhamma that could prove fruitful, provided they take care to balance intellectual understanding with ACTUAL PRACTICE. Such an approach to the Dhamma should certainly not be blocked by the wholesale disparagement of Abhidhamma study sometimes found nowadays among Buddhists in the West, and even in Asia. Dangers of one-sided emphasis and development lurk not only in Abhidhamma but also in other approaches to the Dhamma, and they cannot be entirely avoided until a very high level of harmonious integration of the spiritual faculties has been attained. To be sure, without an earnest attempt TO APPLY the Abhidhamma teachings in such ways as intimated above, they may easily become a rigid system of lifeless concepts. Like other philosophical systems, the Abhidhamma can lead to a dogmatic and superstitious belief in words, for example, to the opinion that one really knows something about a subject if one is skilled in navigating its conceptual system. The study of the Abhidhamma should therefore not be allowed to degenerate into a mere collecting, counting, and arranging of such conceptual labels. This would make of Abhidhamma study - though, of course, not of the Abhidhamma itself - just one more among the many intellectual "playthings" that serve as an escape from facing reality, or as a "respectable excuse" with which to evade the hard inner work needed for liberation. A merely abstract and conceptual approach to the Abhidhamma may also lead to that kind of intellectual pride that often goes together with specialized knowledge. If these pitfalls are avoided, there is a good chance that the Abhidhamma may again become a living force that stimulates thought and aids the meditative endeavour for the mind's liberation, the purpose for which the Abhidhamma is really meant. To achieve this, however, the Abhidhamma teachings must be not merely accepted and transmitted verbally but carefully examined and contemplated in their philosophical and PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS. These teachings are often extremely condensed, and on many points of interest even the classical commentaries are silent. Thus to work out their implications will require the devoted effort of searching and imaginative minds. As they will have to work on neglected and difficult ground, they should not lack the courage to make initial mistakes, which can be rectified by discussion and constant reference to the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka." --- Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > Hi all: > I am enjoying my souvenir from Sri Lanka: Many books form PBS. ... and I have a quick question: > > I am reading this "Abhidhamma Studies" Preface and Chapter one. I think it's a good book. Both Bhikhu Bodhi and Ven. Nyanaponika Thera clearly differentiate Samatha and Vipassana meditation. One question I have is the words like "practice","practical" and "application" (in Concluding Remarks pp 16-17), do they belong there? > > In my opinion, they do if the word 'practice' and practical' mean observe or being aware of dhamma in daily life, and 'application' means make dhamma relevant to daily life. But I am not sure in what context he means. > > What do you all think? > > Jaran 14379 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:14pm Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas Rob M: Unfortunately, all materials is till in Thai. There is sooo many of these talks! I will try my best to summarize what she says on this subject! See you later, jaran 14380 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 8:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts Dear Kom & Frank, No one would doubt your respect and appreciation of the Triple Gem here. I agree with all your sincere comments and understanding of taking ‘refuge’. Let me just quote the following brief extracts: --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Whenever there is sati, which is caused by having listened to the > teachings, > I feel that the sati is the refuge that would have been impossible > hadn't > the Buddha taught for 45 years as a samma-sambuddha (and accumulating > parami > for such a purpose for over 4 unccountable aeons), impossible hadn't the > sangha strived to retain the teachings in whatever way they can for all > these centuries............. .......... > Whenever I follow the Buddha's teachings (and hence, follow the path), > there > is no other higher reverence I can give to the triple gems. ********** --- frank kuan wrote: >..... In a very real sense, just > seeking truth, trying to know truth directly is > implicitly taking refuge in the triple jewel, whether > we perform a ceremony or not. ********** Anumodana and thank you for sharing with us. Sarah ===== 14381 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 8:48pm Subject: 'pretty much given up' ????? Hey Larry, --- <> wrote: > Hi Rob, tadarammana as a linking citta makes sense to me. I think this > group has pretty much given up on understanding anything about memory. --- ..... Now when did this group ‘pretty much’ give up on ‘understanding anything’ on anything??? Did you read all Num's posts on sanna in U.P. for a start? Goggy proves my point with another neat description here, I think: goglerr wrote: > I wanna ramble something on 'memory'. As to my understanding, all > citta have sanna as their associated cetasika, as well as the other 6 > universal cetasikas. Each cognitive process (mind or body process) > run through very rapidly, that is to say, they arise and passes away > very fast. So too, a 'collective of sanna', which are also arising > and passing away with the cittas, formed the memory/recognition > (memories), appearing as mental images, mental vision and recalling > process. Sustaining/recalling those memories (long or short term) are > conditioned and strenghten (or weaken) by other associated cetasikas > too. .********** Btw, with regard to the account about Maha Tissa you raised, there were no akusala cittas involved. the vipaka citta was the seeing which just saw visible object and instead of then seeing the ‘beautiful in the foul’, the rupas of the body were understood as they truly are as elements which are unsatisfactory and foul. This last vipallasa (perversion) of seeing the asubha (foul) as beautiful or pleasant is only finally eradicated by the arahat. I enjoyed your reminders about conceit as well and I’m glad to see there are several others with keen abhidhamma knowledge to help in the ADL corner and to answer your always challenging questions while we go away (and probably far more succinctly and accurately too;-)) Even Kom is around..;-)) Sarah ===== 14382 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:32pm Subject: Re: Jon/ More on Spirals Howard I am still some days (weeks?) away from reaching this post of yours in my own inbox, but thanks to Sarah's daily print-out of new posts I was able to read it over breakfast this morning. I thought it deserved to jump the queue! ===================== Howard: This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta of the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality as above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the near shore to the far shore." This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, and is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the factors affect each other. ===================== Great sutta quote, Howard, and I do agree with your comments about the 'spiral of conditionality'. This is perhaps how much of the teachings was intended to be understood, and your reference brings this out nicely. I think it also helps to highlight the momentary nature of the individual factors in the various groups of factors, since they are no longer seen as 'stages' to be attained. That momentary arising occurs because of multiple conditioning factors that are beyond our perception (apparent only to a Buddha). Thanks for the good reminders and the useful sutta reference to keep in mind. Jon --- Howard wrote: > Hi again, Jon - > > I just read the first two suttas from the book of tens in the A. > Nikaya, and they are quite relevant to what we were discussing (growing > out > of VI, 50). In the first of these, the Buddha puts forth the following > chain > of conditionality: > > Virtuous ways of conduct > -> > Non-remorse > -> > Gladness > -> > Joy > -> > Serenity > -> > Happiness > -> > Concentration of the mind > -> > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > -> > Revulsion and dispassion > -> > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What > is > interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second > sutta of > the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality > as > above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once > again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the > preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding > qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from > the > near shore to the far shore." > This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, > and > is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the > factors affect each other. > > With metta, > Howard 14383 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:43pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Role of jhanas in enlightenment Sukin I thought your explanation of the links from Howard's sutta was very well said. I particularly appreciated the point that the attainment of the jhanas is no substitute for the development of right understanding. To digress a little, there seems to be a fairly widely held view that once the jhanas have been attained, and the hindrances (temporarily) suppressed, dhammas will suddenly become visible and apparent, or that understadning will somehow arise more freely. This to my view ignores your point that the understanding necessary for discernment of dhammas is of an entirely different nature to the understanding that accompanies samatha, and must be developed in its own right, gradually, by studying dhammas as and when they appear. Viewed in this light, the suppression of the hindrances is not the 'key' to the development of vipassana that some seem to regard it as. To take a parallel situation in one wishing to develop the jhanas. We know that highly developed sila is essential for that attainment. This does not mean, however, that sila must be developed to a high degree first, before there can be any development of samatha. The development of samatha can begin regardless of how pure the sila, although obviously the rate of progress in that development will depend to some degree on how well the sila develops in parallel with the samatha. Sorry for the digression, which doesn't really arise from your post. Just some random thoughts that happen to more or less coincide with something in your post! Jon PS The MP3 files work great on the new player (iPod). Thanks for the CD's. I have several weeks of listening in hand right now. New and cheaper players with similar functions (i.e., they store the MP3 files internally and do not need the CD to be physically loaded) are coming onto the market at a rapid rate. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Dear Howard, Victor and Jon, ... ... ... In Howard's example below, what I understand is at the moment when there is sense control ( arisen by conditions), at that moment then there is an abstinence from breaking a precept. If the accumulations are favourable, this would lead to rt. concentration, and again if panna is strong, to the other parts. Whether all of this arises in just a flash or successively I am not sure at all. However, I see no room that it can be 'trained' to achieve, since panna has to be there from the very beginning. If our understanding of sila and sense control is weak, I don't think this can lead to rt.concentration. And I don't think concentration of the samma kind can be had simply by trying to control the senses and keeping strict sila. This can be done with little or no understanding. Lastly, satipatthana being the one and only way to the understanding of nama and rupa, even a jhana expert must first have had moments of satipatthana if he were to understand reality. My personal view is that jhana is not a tool for the understanding of nama and rupa. Even jhanacittas must be seen for what it is, namely anicca, dukkha and anatta. ... ... ... metta, Sukin. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14384 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Howard Here's something else we manage to agree on ;-)) : ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of that very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see them differently Accumulations! ------------------------------------------------------ Very true indeed. However, your earlier comments in the same post have me puzzled. Just when I thought I was beginning to get a handle on phenomenalism, you post something that suggests it is equated with emptiness (or so it seems to me). You said: -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed, that is the part [Jon: i.e., the part that supports the phenomenalist approach]. That part, as I see it, points out the "emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out he "emptiness of the experiencer". --------------------------------------------------- I'm afraid I cannot see what the 'emptiness' of the presently arising matter has to do with the phenomenalist approach, which I had gathered to be essentially the assertion that only what is being experienced at the present moment actually exists. Since the subject continues to come up, I hope you won't mind my asking you to make the connection. Thanks. Jon ........................... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/6/02 5:57:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > Howard > > You don't say exactly which part of the sutta supports the phenomenalist > approach, but my guess is that it would be the part that reads: > > "a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight;â€? . > He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; â€? . He > does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; â€? . He > does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; â€? . > Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena > seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'." > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed, that is the part. That part, as I see it, points out the "emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out he "emptiness of the experiencer". --------------------------------------------------- ... ... ... > To me, this sutta is saying, the Buddha *knows about* what is, he doesn't > *conceive about* anything. This I think is made clear by the final verse > passage: > > "Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed > As truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched > In their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. > Well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], > This barb I beheld whereon humans are hooked, impaled. > "I know, I see, 'tis verily so" -- no such clinging for the Tathagatas." ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of that very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see them differently Accumulations! ------------------------------------------------------ 14385 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth Suan Many thanks for presenting this translation and for the supporting notes. It is interesting to see a translation that follows the grammatical structure of the original Pali. I just have one question (below) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends How are you? The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes the fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render it in as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax Walk- through" on the translation. I hope you find it useful. "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, produced by Vipassana research Institute . THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH Translated By Suan Lu Zaw Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is the noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery has been accomplished. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jon: It's still not easy for the Pali-challenged like me to relate a particular word back to the original. Is 'practice bound for cessation of misery' a translation of ' dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa'? I am interested in the term ' pa.tipadaa', whether it is the same word (in different form) as 'pa.tipatti', and what meaning and connotations it carries. If you have time to comment on this, I would be very interested to hear. Thanks again for all your work. Jon 14386 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight Victor <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Hi Jon and all, Hmmm, this thread is not mine anyway. Questions: 1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and how is that accomplished? Answers: Unskillful qualities are to be understood as passion, aversion, and delusion. They are also to be understood as sensual desire, ill- will, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and worry, and doubt. When one withdraws from sensuality and unskillful qualities, one abandons them. How is that accomplished? Please refer this discourse in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn020.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jon: I think we are going around in circles here, Victor ;-)). You refer above to the abandoning of the hindrances (I think), but in the texts this normally implies jhana. This would mean that before sitting down to focus on the breath (in order to develop Right Concentration), jhana would be needed first. Is this how you see it? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Question: 2. What is the difference in the mental state between-- a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and whose mind is focussed on in and out breathing? For Question 2, Jon, I would suggest to: Sit in a secluded place with leg crossed and eye closed. Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities. Focus on in and out breathing. See for yourself, Jon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jon: In asking this question, I had in mind that a mind that is focussed on the breath could be either kusala or akusala. Since the purpose here is the development of Right Concentration, which obviously arises only with kusala citta, is it your view that mind with breath as object is more likely to be kusala than mind without breath as object? I am not aware of any basis for that in the texts. And anyway, how would a person know whether the citta is kusala or akusala? Alternatively, if you are postulating a mind that is already kusala -- since you refer to 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskilful qualities' (a pretty big 'if', I believe) -- then what additional benefit do you see as following from focussing the mind on breath? You suggest that rather than seek to understand the theory I should simply try it and see for myself. I am not aware of the Buddha ever suggesting or endorsing this approach. Indeed, he spent the whole of his life after enlightenment explaining the why's and wherefore's to those who would listen (many became enlightened while listening and considering as he spoke). Quite apart from the doubts I have about your approach, the state of being 'withdrawn from sensuality and unskilful qualities' doesn't sound like me, so I don't think I even make it to first base ;-)) Joking aside though, Victor, it is useful to exchange views on these important areas, and I am grateful for the opportunity to do so with you. Jon 14387 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah] Rob Ep <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Since you have jumped in on Victor's thread, may I jump in with you? Hmmn...the water seems tepid, just the way I like it, neither hot nor cold. Question: isn't it possible to focus on breathing without having a 'who' that is focussing? The consciousness that focusses on breathing can merely focus it, and then you get a 'breathing-focussed' citta, for better, worse, or neutral. Robert Ep. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're welcome. As long as you don't make too big a splash! I think your observation here is right on, Rob. As I said in my post to Victor just sent, a citta focussed on the breath may be either kusala or akusala (but not, I think, neutral). What's to say it's more likely to be the former than the latter? Which brings me back to a point we've discussed before on samatha/the jhanas. The development of samatha involves the development of kusala citta to the (eventual) exclusion of akusala. This development cannot occur unless there is the highly developed discrimination that knows the difference between the 2. I think people tend to assume that the mere fact of 'taking' as object one of the 40 meditation subjects given in the Visuddhimagga will condition the citta to be kusala, or will significantly increase the chances of it being so. However, I am not aware of any basis for this in the texts, and I believe it to be misconceived. Any thoughts on this yourself? Jon 14388 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) Rob Ep <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I would think that since walking, sitting and lying down are the three main positions of life, that there would be specialized practices of one kind or another for practicing mindfulness during these basic phases of physical living. It makes sense to me. Robert Ep. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if mindfulness was a matter of a particular 'practice to be done', then I would be inclined to agree with you. But I happen to believe it's not, and I see some significance in the fact that there is an absence of walking-, sitting and lying down-practices in the texts. To my reading of the texts, the Buddha in fact positively indicates that there is no distinction to be drawn as to posture, time of day, nature of activity as far as the development of insight is concerned. I'm sure you are already familiar with the passages from the Satipatthana Sutta copied below, but they bear repeating. Jon Satipatthana Sutta [The Modes of Deportment] "And further, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. ..." [The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension] "And further, a bhikkhu, -- in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; -- in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ... -- in bending and in stretching, ... -- in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, ... -- in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, ... -- in defecating and in urinating, ... -- in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension." 14389 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) Rob Ep <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard ... ... ... > As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a > translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'. According to the > dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down > (as given in both PED and CPED). If cankamana is the original, then the > 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss. This is > perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a > prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the > translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation'). Jon, Could you tell me the difference between seated contemplation and sitting meditation? Those seem pretty similar to me. Robert Ep. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't intend to draw any particular distinction. It was more a case of wanting to avoid using 'meditation', because of the different things it means to different people. I've since realised that 'seated contemplation' probably suffers from the same shortcoming, so I am now using 'sitting', following Bh Bodhi's translation in 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'. Jon 14390 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts Dear Group, Here is a short sutta from the Dhammapada that I like: 364. Dhammaaraamo dhammarato, dhamma.m anuvicintaya.m; dhamma.m anussara.m bhikkhu, saddhammaa na parihaayati. 364. The bhikkhu who abides in the Dhamma, who delights in the Dhamma, who meditates on the Dhamma, and is ever mindful of the Dhamma, does not fall away from the Dhamma of the virtuous. The background is as follows: The Buddha annouced that he would attain khandha parinibbana - extinction of the five khandhas in 4 months. The monk Dhammarama decided to strive and consequently went off by himself "considering, pondering and calling to mind the Dhamma" (Burlingame p249). The other monks wondered why he didn't go to see the Buddha and thought he had to affectation for the Buddha. He was brought to the Buddha: He told the Buddha that he was striving for arahantship and "considering, pondering and calling to mind the Dhamma" p250. "Good, good! exclaimed the Teacher to the monks, Monks every other monk should show his affection for me just as Dhammarama has done. For they that honour me with garlands perfumes and the like honour me not; but they that practice the higher and lower law they alone truly honour me" p250 (This includes the development of samatha and vipassana and the bodhipakkhiyadhammaa -- culminating in arahantship) Robert 14391 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts --- "had to affectation" - should be "have no affection" "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Group, > Here is a short sutta from the Dhammapada that I like: > 364. Dhammaaraamo dhammarato, dhamma.m anuvicintaya.m; > dhamma.m anussara.m bhikkhu, saddhammaa na parihaayati. > 364. The bhikkhu who abides in the Dhamma, who delights in the > Dhamma, who meditates on the Dhamma, and is ever mindful of the > Dhamma, does not fall away from the Dhamma of the virtuous. > > The background is as follows: > > The Buddha annouced that he would attain khandha parinibbana - > extinction of the five khandhas in 4 months. The monk Dhammarama > decided to strive and consequently went off by himself "considering, > pondering and calling to mind the Dhamma" (Burlingame p249). > The other monks wondered why he didn't go to see the Buddha and > thought he had to affectation for the Buddha. He was brought to the > Buddha: He told the Buddha that he was striving for arahantship > and "considering, pondering and calling to mind the Dhamma" p250. > "Good, good! exclaimed the Teacher to the monks, Monks every other > monk should show his affection for me just as Dhammarama has done. > For they that honour me with garlands perfumes and the like honour > me not; but they that practice the higher and lower law they alone > truly honour me" p250 (This includes the development of samatha and > vipassana and the bodhipakkhiyadhammaa -- culminating in > arahantship) > Robert 14392 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 0:29am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Hi Larry (and Frank), Adding more to Frank's excellent answer: > -----Original Message----- > From: frank kuan [mailto:<>] > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 9:28 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) > > > Hi Larry, > --- <> wrote: > > "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither > > painful nor pleasant, he > > does not comprehend the origin nor the going down > > nor the satisfaction > > nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it > > as it really is; a > > tendency to ignorance is latent in him..." > > > > origin: the conditional, dependently arisen nature of > feeling, i.e. feeling has causal factors such as > contact, sense organ, extern object, bare > consciousness of object as conditions for its arising. Also, attachment (as the cause of all dukha) and avijja (the common cause of all dukkha). > > going down: the impermanent nature of feeling, that > feeling arises, then dissipates, fades away, ceases > > satisfaction: what is pleasing and delightful in > feeling > > peril: the unsatisfactoriness of craving impermanent > feeling, the insatiability, the inability of feeling > to satisfy or bring lasting happiness Also, the impermanence, the dukkha, and the conditioned nature of the feeling. > > escape from feeling: through detachment, > non-attachment, non-clinging, seeing it's true nature > And ultimately, nibbana.... kom 14393 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, Jaran, Rob M Dear Jaran and Rob M, I enjoyed Jaran's rendering of the tape very much. I am very keen also to have more of this material, thank you Jaran. I do not have the possibility now to listen to CD Rom with sound. It is beyond me. If you just write an extract of the essence it is wonderful. I have been thinking about this: N: The impartiality of TMT is important, when performing dana, or having genuine kindness: no thought of being kind to this person, not to that, because everybody is just nama and rupa. Also for the development of insight: whatever arises is conditioned, no preference for this reality or that reality. As Jon stressed so often: also akusala has to be known and it is not an object that is less worthy than the other objects of awareness and understanding. Rob M, It may be a good idea if you indicate each time about what subject you will be talking next for your group. It gives us the opportunity to consider this subject also and in this way we can all share, it would be very useful. with appreciation, Nina. op 16-07-2002 16:00 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op <>: > > Regarding Tatramajjhattata(TMT) and the six pairs of kusala, I'm > listening to the talks by K.Sujin on Sobhanadhamma (in Thai). > 14394 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Dear Larry, I try to answer. op 16-07-2002 03:32 schreef <> op <>: Hi all, is rupa arammana and rupa the same? Does hardness interrupt the bhavangha stream? What does the 'sensitive matter' (pasadarupa) that makes up the sense doors do? L: is rupa arammana and rupa the same? N: Rupa is not always an arammana, only when it impinges on the relevant doorway and is thus experienced by citta. L: Does hardness interrupt the > bhavangha stream? N: The sense-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting-consciousness follow upon the bhavanga-citta, namely the arrest-bhhavanga and then the stream is discontinued. There are several conditions for this to happen, not just the rupa which impinges on a doorway. That is why I want to be careful and not point to just hardness. We do not have continuously bhavanga-cittas in our life. We were born to receive sense impressions, to see, hear, etc. The sense-cognitions are the results of kamma, but, as you know, before seeing can arise there has to be the arrest bhavanga and then the sense-door adverting consciousness, which is not vipaka. But it is the first citta of the sense-door process during which the result of kamma can be experienced. Here we see the intricacy of the many conditions which play their part. L: What does the 'sensitive matter' (pasadarupa) that > makes up the sense doors do? N: It is produced by kamma and is a condition for the receiving of the relevant object. It is rupa, thus, it does not experience anything, but it is a condition for the experience of rupa. You discussed about a special function of tadarammana citta as to memory. I do not think so. In the sensuous planes and with regard to cittas of the sense sphere, kamma can produce two more moments of vipakacittas, which have as their only function to experience that sense objects for two more moments. They do not do anything special, they are more passive. Retention is a better translation than registering. This shows how much we are involved with sense objects. You were discussing with Rob M about ayuhana vinnana. I quote from his post: Nina: We read in Vis. XX, 72: Thus, no store we read here. When there is such an ayuhana vinnana, how could this agree with impermanence? We may cling immediately to it as mine. And then there would be more than one citta at a time. Accumulation takes place each moment: one citta falls away and conditions the next one, and in this way all experiences and all kusala, akusala, are accumulated from citta to citta, from life to life. The force of kamma can propel to a future time and produce vipaka later on. Also memory; there are conditions for recalling later on an event of the past, just because each citta is accompanied by sanna and conditions the following citta. I would not say that each process creates kamma, is that not too much? Akusala citta arises, such as some irritation, but that is not kamma motivating deeds through body, speech and mind. Best wishes, Nina. 14395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:00am Subject: The Perfections by A. Sujin, Ch 3, no 1. Perfections Ch 3, no 1 Chapter 3 The Perfection of Morality The Commentary to ³The Basket of Conduct² defines the perfection of morality as follows: Virtue (síla) has the characteristic of composing (sílana); co-ordinating (samådhåna) and establishing (patiììhana) are also mentioned as its characteristic. Its function is to dispel moral depravity, or its function is blameless conduct; its manifestation is moral purity; shame and moral dread are its proximate cause. The transgression of morality, síla, such as killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, is motivated by akusala: by attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa), and ignorance (moha). When someone commits evil deeds he lacks mettå, loving kindness towards others. All akusala kammas are conditioned by clinging to visible object, sound, smell, flavour, tangible object and the wrong view that there is self, being or person. The streamwinner who has realized the four noble Truths and attained the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated the defilements in accordance with that stage of enlightenment. He observes the five precepts perfectly, he cannot transgress them anymore. If one is not a streamwinner which precepts can one observe? Even before we are a streamwinner, we should not transgress the precepts. The coarse defilements can be subdued and worn away until paññå will be developed to the degree of a perfection and is able to realize the four noble Truths. The perfection of síla is an excellent quality that is a supporting condition for reaching the further shore, namely the eradication of defilements. We read about Akitti¹s síla in the Commentary to the ³Basket of conduct² 1) : When the Buddha was the ascetic Akitti, he dwellt in a Kåra wood with strength and enery to fulfill the ascetic practices (tapa), that is, the perfection of síla. Síla is indeed called ascetism, because it burns the impurity of akusala. Evenso the perfection of renunciation and the perfection of energy are called ascetism (tapa), because they burn by their strength the impurity of clinging and laziness. The ten perfections are supporting conditions for each other, also at the time the Buddha was the ascetic Akitti. He accumulated the perfection of síla together with the other perfections, such as renunciation and energy. We read: At the time he was the ascetic Akitti he built a hermitage beside a great Kåra tree. When this tree gave fruits he fed on them, and when there were no fruits he fed on its leaves sprinkled with water. Thus he had time and opportunity to apply himself to the attainment of jhåna. The ascetic Akitti searched for Kåra leaves that were sufficient for only one meal a day, because he found that searching for food for two meals would not lead to the eradication of defilements. This is the perfection of patience, because his life was not involved with the urge to eat. We read: His behaviour caused Sakka, the King of the devas, to wonder why the ascetic Akitti had such pure conduct of action, speech and thought, was devoid of attachment in his life, and had Kåra leaves as his only food, which were ascetic practices most difficult to perform. We should know the aim of our practice, such as the observing of síla, morality. People who want to give up attachment to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object should know why they are doing this. We read: When Sakka saw this, he wondered why the ascetic Akitti observed such practice. He thought that the ascetic Akitti practised in this way because he desired to become Sakka, King of the Devas. Sakka, in the guise of a brahmin, came to see the ascetic Akitti, thinking, ³If the ascetic Akitti wishes to become Sakka, he will give me his sodden Kåra leaves, but if he has not such a wish, he will not give them away.² Footnote: 1.See the Akitta Jåtaka, no. 480. 14396 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:35am Subject: Abhidhamma Class Hi all, In a recent posting, Nina wrote, "Rob M, It may be a good idea if you indicate each time about what subject you will be talking next for your group. It gives us the opportunity to consider this subject also and in this way we can all share, it would be very useful." This is great for me (and the students!). Here is a bit of background to put things into context. The Vihara runs a Sunday School. I suspect that there must be close to 1000 kids registered, but not all show up each week. Some of the parents want to take classes as well on Sunday mornings while their kids are occupied. There is a one-year "Introduction to Buddhism" course for adults. After the introductory course, many of the adults follow this up with Abhidhamma classes the following year. This is the path that I took. For four years, I studied Abhidhamma under Brother Teo. He really knows his stuff. In January 2002, I voluntered to be Bro. Teo's "apprentice" and take over the first 75 minutes of class. After a brief break, Bro. Teo then teaches for 75 minutes followed by another brief break and Vipassana mediation led by Bro. Teo. In his part of the class, Bro. Teo has somebody read a section from ADL and then he gives more background information. After seven months, we are just now on Chapter 4. For my portion of the class, I want to put more focus on the "in daily life" aspect of Abhidhamma. I try to focus on "relevance" and "action", leaving the job of teaching the more theoretical stuff to Bro. Teo. I am interested in the theoretical stuff, but Bro. Teo is better at it than I am. For the past few months, I have been going through the cetasikas, drawing heavily on Nina's book, "Cetasikas". I am finished with the akusala cetasikas and am now doing the universal kusala cetasikas. Each week, I take one cetasika and start with the definition (characteristic, function, manifestation, proximate cause). I then summarize the relevant chapter from Nina's book. I then summarize practical points from other materials downloaded from the Internet. For example, I recently talked on Alobha and then summarized Bhikkhu Bodhi's book "Dana". Each week, I prepare class notes in bullet form (typically one page) which is distributed. I also summarize the stuff that I download from the Internet and hand it out as well. Bro. Teo reviews all of my material before I distribute it. In the past seven months, I have prepared more than 100 pages of handouts. I make 75 copies of each handout and they all get used up. By the end of 2002, I will have 150 - 200 pages of handouts and I will get them printed up as "class notes" for next year. My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily life, drive people to action. This is where I am hoping to get help from this group. I have lots of reference books (I recently picked up more than 50 books/booklets on a trip to Colombo). What I am looking for are ways of making the material come alive to a non- academic group of parents. The class schedule for the next few weeks is as follows: Jul 21 - Sangdikha Dana (no class) Jul 28 - Tatramajjhattata / six pairs Aug 4 - Adosa (Khanti + Metta) Aug 11 - I will probably be on vacation Aug 18 - Start the wholesome occasional cetasikas (Vaci-duccarita Virati - abstinence from wrong speech ) Aug 25 - Kaya-duccarita Virati (Abstinence from Wrong Action) I am not sure that I can fill up a full 75 minutes of motivational talk on Tatramajjhattata / six pairs on July 28. My "plan B" is to bring in a monk for a portion of my time to discuss the process of becoming a monk and describe a monk's daily life. Unfortunately, I can't use this "get out of jail free card" more than once, so I have to make sure that I have a full plate of materials for future classes. Metta is a farily easy topic to make relevant to people's lives, but I would be happy to start collecting ideas on how to make the three abstinences more interesting. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14397 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/17/02 9:48:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > Here's something else we manage to agree on ;-)) : > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of > that very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see > them differently Accumulations! > ------------------------------------------------------ > Very true indeed. > > However, your earlier comments in the same post have me puzzled. Just > when I thought I was beginning to get a handle on phenomenalism, you post > something that suggests it is equated with emptiness (or so it seems to > me). You said: > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, indeed, that is the part [Jon: i.e., the part that supports > the phenomenalist approach]. That part, as I see it, points out the > "emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out > he "emptiness of the experiencer". > --------------------------------------------------- > > I'm afraid I cannot see what the 'emptiness' of the presently arising > matter has to do with the phenomenalist approach, which I had gathered to > be essentially the assertion that only what is being experienced at the > present moment actually exists. > > Since the subject continues to come up, I hope you won't mind my asking > you to make the connection. Thanks. > > Jon > =========================== The phenomenalist relevance to emptiness is only a part of the story. It is the sense that in the seen, there is *only* the seen, *merely* the seen, i.e., the visual image, and not some "thing out there" which is seen. The "experienced" (i.e., the object) is empty from the phenomenalist perspective, and I also believe from the Buddhist (especially the Abhidhammist) perspective, in the sense that it is not an object in the conventional sense existing "out there" independent of being known, but rather, exists only in being the object of a citta - that is, its existence is interdependent with the knowing of it. This type of dependency is one aspect of the emptiness of the object, the other being its dependence on previous conditions. The object, arammana, is dependent on the subject, citta, and that dependency, that lack of independent status, is part of the "emptiness" of the object. Similarly, the knowing citta is dependent on the known aramanna, so that the subject lacks independent status, depending as it does on the associated object. Again of course, that is not the only reason for the emptiness of the citta - the citta (as well as its object) arises due to previous conditions, most especially due to mental formations conditioned by avijja. There are no trees "out there", there are just mind-constructs that *appear* to us as trees out there. But also, there is no hardness, nor roughness, nor greenness and brownness, nor trunk-shape, nor leaf-shapes "out there". There are just these paramattha-dhamma aramannas arising interdependently with cittas, mutually and simultaneously conditioning each other by co-occurrence (and also conditioned by previous states), and all empty (i.e., lacking independent status, lacking self) due to that conditioning. The specific conditionality that is the phenomenalist aspect is that all of "this" is an internal stream of arisings, each an interdependent vi~n~nana/namarupa (or citta/aramanna) pair. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14398 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/17/02 1:03:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > L: is rupa arammana and rupa the same? > N: Rupa is not always an arammana, only when it impinges on the relevant > doorway and is thus experienced by citta. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: How does one (anyone, including a Buddha) know a rupa that is not the object of a citta? ----------------------------------------------------- > L: Does hardness interrupt the > > bhavangha stream? > N: The sense-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door > adverting-consciousness follow upon the bhavanga-citta, namely the > arrest-bhhavanga and then the stream is discontinued. There are several > conditions for this to happen, not just the rupa which impinges on a > doorway. That is why I want to be careful and not point to just hardness. > We > do not have continuously bhavanga-cittas in our life. We were born to > receive sense impressions, to see, hear, etc. The sense-cognitions are the > results of kamma, but, as you know, before seeing can arise there has to be > the arrest bhavanga and then the sense-door adverting consciousness, which > is not vipaka. But it is the first citta of the sense-door process during > which the result of kamma can be experienced. Here we see the intricacy of > the many conditions which play their part. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: When hardness is not the object of a citta, *where* does it abide? It is a rupa, but not always an aramanna. So what is its existential status when not an object? Where is it? In the land of Plato's ideals??? ;-)) My not so subtle point is that I do not buy the idea of rupas existing independently of vi~n~nana. One cannot say, for example, that hardness exists as a characteristic of some "thing out there" like a table, or a floor, or a tree, because these are just concepts. And one also cannot say that hardness exists in some disembodied fashion all on its own, in some Platonic heaven. It seems to me that one can *only* say that hardness occurs as the objective pole of a citta-aramanna event. ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14399 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 8:39am Subject: ADL ch. 16 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 16 (3) As regards dhammarammana, the sixth class of arammana, this can again be subdivided into six classes. They are : 1. The five sense-organs (pasada-rupas) 2. The sixteen subtle rupas (sukhuma-rupas) 3. Citta 4. Cetasika 5. Nibbana 6. Conventional terms or concepts (pannatti) The first class of dhammarammana comprises the five sense-organs (pasada-rupas) ; they are the rupas which have the capacity to receive sense-impressions. The pasada-rupas do not experience anything, they are rupa, not nama; they can be the doors through which cittas experience objects. The pasada-rupas cannot be known through the sense-doors; they can only be known through the mind-door. For example, we cannot experience eye-sense through the eyes; we know that there is eye-sense, because there is seeing. As regards the 'subtle rupas' (sukhuma-rupas), there are sixteen kinds of subtle rupa. Altogether there are twenty-eight kinds of rupa of which twelve are classified as 'gross' (olarika) and sixteen as subtle (sukhuma). . The gross rupas include the seven objects which can be directly experienced through the five sense-doors: four rupas though the four sense-doors of eyes, ears, nose and tongue respectively, and the three rupas of solidity, temperature and motion through the body-door. Furthermore there are the gross rupas which are the five senses (pasada-rupas), the rupas which can be the doors through which these objects are experienced. The five pasada-rupas are classified as the first class of dhammarammana. The sixteen kinds of subtle rupa can be experienced only through the mind-door. Among them are, for example, 'nutritive essence' (oja), vaci-vinnatti, the rupa which is the physical condition for speech, and kaya-vinnatti, the rupa which is the physical condition for expression through gestures (bodily expression). It depends on the accumulated panna whether the true nature of subtle rupas can be experienced or not. When one thinks about one of the subtle rupas it does not mean that there is panna which directly experiences its characteristic, as only a kind of rupa, not self. Citta is another class of dhammarammana; cittas experience different arammanas, but citta itself can be arammana as well. Citta can have kusala cittas, akusala cittas and many other types of citta as its object. The class of dhammarammana which is cetasika comprises all fifty-two cetasikas. Feeling is a cetasika. Painful feeling, for example, can be known by citta; then the object of citta is dhammarammana. When one experiences hardness the object is not dhammarammana but phothabbarammana (tangible object). Hardness and painful bodily feeling can appear closely one after the other. If one does not realize that hardness and painful bodily feeling are different arammanas and if one is ignorant of the different characteristics of nama and rupa, one will continue taking them for self. Citta can experience all kinds of objects. Even nibbana can be experienced by citta. Nibbana is dhammarammana, it can only be experienced through the mind-door. Thus, citta can experience both sankhara dhammas (conditioned dhammas) and visankhara dhamma (unconditioned dhamma). The citta which experiences sankhara dhamma is lokiya citta (lokiya is usually translated as 'mundane', but it does not mean 'worldly' as it is understood in conventional language). The citta which directly experiences nibbana is lokuttara citta. Another class of dhammarammana is conventional terms, concepts and ideas (pannatti). Thus we see that citta can know both paramattha dhammas, which are nama and rupa, and concepts or conventional terms, which are not paramattha dhammas. A concept or a conventional term citta thinks of is not a paramattha dhamma. We can think of a person, an animal or a thing because of remembrance of past experiences, but they are not paramattha dhammas, realities which can be directly experienced. When there is thinking about a conventional term or a concept, it is nama which thinks; nama is a paramattha dhamma. Thus, the reality at that moment is the thinking. Conventional terms can denote both realities and things which are not real. A term which in itself is not a paramattha dhamma, can denote a paramattha dhamma. For instance, the terms 'nama' and 'rupa' are pannatti, but they denote paramattha dhammas. It is essential to know the difference between paramattha dhamma and pannatti. If we cling to the terms 'nama' and 'rupa' and continue thinking about nama and rupa instead of being aware of their characteristics when they appear, we will only know pannattis instead of realities. 14400 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 9:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Hi Frank and Kom, I wonder how these terms relate to a neither pleasant nor painful feeling. Does that kind of feeling have a different origin, satisfaction, and peril? 'Escape' seems a little odd in this case as well. Any comments? Larry "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the satisfaction nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it really is; a tendency to ignorance is latent in him..." 14401 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'pretty much given up' ????? Hi Sarah, I guess I should have said *I* have given up on understanding memory; or perhaps, this group that is *me* has given up, instead of *you guys* have given up on understanding memory as something other or more than sanna. I guess my point was that I didn't think memories and accumulations (ayuhana) was the same thing. My further point was that everyone (*you guys*) seems to be locked-in to sanna as the alpha and omega of memory. There's got to be more to it than "sanna marks for memory." But whatever more there is isn't in abhidhamma; so all we can do is speculate, and in the end that's pretty unsatisfactory. So I gave up. But 'giving up' being an event in a continuous flow of events, it later occured to me that recognizing and remembering are probably distinct, complex processes. Furthermore, we all probably have perfect memories but there is considerable variability in our ability to remember. This no doubt is due to hindrances to clear seeing. Would there, by any chance, be a list of such hindrances? Larry 14402 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) --- <> wrote: > Hi Frank and Kom, I wonder how these terms relate to > a neither pleasant > nor painful feeling. Does that kind of feeling have > a different origin, > satisfaction, and peril? 'Escape' seems a little odd > in this case as > well. Any comments? > There's worldly neutral feeling and unworldly neutral feeling (higher jhana only has pure equanimity, no physical pleasant feeling). The unworldly neutral feeling is dangerous and satisfying in the same way a pleasant worldly feeling is. Easy to cling to due to its pleasantness. -fk 14403 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi Nina, this interface between the sense door and the mind door (bhavanga citta) is what interests me. I had the idea that the sense door sent a representative of the rupa to the mind door where it was 'looked at' by 17 cittas in a row then dissoved. Your point that a rupa doesn't physically barge into the mind door and interrupt the bhavanga is well taken. I hadn't considered that the interruption is an internal matter between cittas. I'm still having trouble visualizing or imagining how citta cognizes rupa. While I have your eye, I wanted to ask you how long the objects in mind-door process last. For example, are there 7 different objects during the javana series? thanks for your help, Larry 14404 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi Howard, you asked: "How does one (anyone, including a Buddha) know a rupa that is not the object of a citta?" I don't know how a Buddha knows things, but everyone else uses inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason. Without it, we couldn't even formulate the idea of phenomenalism. But I guess what we really want to know is how does a Buddha know dhammas. I would also acknowledge that a phenomenalist perspective has proven throughout the centuries to be an effective liberative technique. best wishes, Larry 14405 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) H Frank, I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how a worldly neutral feeling is satisfying or dangerous. I guess I'm ignorant. Duh, who woulda thunk it? best wishes, Larry 14406 From: search Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:21am Subject: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts Ruth wrote: > What is a sensei? "sensei" means "master". It is used when speaking of spiritual leaders. It is also used in martial arts, for "teachers" who have reached a high level. It is used as a title or as a sign of respect... or both. Best regards. Jean-François 14407 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "practice"/"practical"/"application" in Nya's Abhidhamma Studies.. Hi Jaran (& Christine), --- Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > Hi all: > I am enjoying my souvenir from Sri Lanka: Many books form PBS. ... and I > have a quick question: ..... Glad to hear the books are being put to good use and to see you sharing them here;-) Yes, Chris, he also left Colombo airport loaded up with B.Bodhi’s translations and other books like this one.... ..... > I am reading this "Abhidhamma Studies" Preface and Chapter one. I think > it's a good book. Both Bhikhu Bodhi and Ven. Nyanaponika Thera clearly > differentiate Samatha and Vipassana meditation. One question I have is > the words like "practice","practical" and "application" (in Concluding > Remarks pp 16-17), do they belong there? > > In my opinion, they do if the word 'practice' and practical' mean > observe or being aware of dhamma in daily life, and 'application' means > make dhamma relevant to daily life. But I am not sure in what context he > means. > > What do you all think? ..... Wow, I think Chris is a marvel of efficiency;-).....hope to get some tips... Jaran, I think that in this context as I understand it, he’s merely discussing the value of abhidhamma studies, provided it does not become a ‘rigid system of lifeless concepts’. In other words, he’s not attempting to discuss what ‘practice’ or ‘application’ is here (or he could have used Pali terms like vipassana, bhavana, patipada, patipatti and so on). He’s merely cautioning that theoretical and intellectual study are not the same as direct understanding and practice. I particularly like the following quoted paragraph which is similar to one or two themes we’ve been discussing recently on DSG: ***** > The study of the Abhidhamma should therefore not be allowed > to degenerate into a mere collecting, counting, and arranging of such > conceptual labels. This would make of Abhidhamma study - though, of > course, not of the Abhidhamma itself - just one more among the many > intellectual "playthings" that serve as an escape from facing > reality, or as a "respectable excuse" with which to evade the hard > inner work needed for liberation. A merely abstract and conceptual > approach to the Abhidhamma may also lead to that kind of intellectual > pride that often goes together with specialized knowledge. ***** As for the question of how ‘practice’ should be understood and the role of abhidhamma in practice, these are good areas for consideration and I hope you will say more and add the Pali terms (now you have access to Pali, Thai and English Tipitaka;-)) and encourage others to discuss further while I’m away. Sarah ===== 14408 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Hi Frank (Nina & All), --- frank kuan wrote: > > My reason for practicing astanga is for the benefits > it brings to physical health (from a holistic > perspective, not just western notion of physical > health) health to complement the mental culture path > from Buddhism. ..... I followed your discussions with interest and find it easy to ‘relate’ to these comments and to‘Frankfood’. I’ve been looking out some references for your consideration, which I’ll add without comments under a few headings. As usual,I was pulling out texts looking for one in particular which I could ‘visualize’ on a page but couldn’t find . It was stressing the importance of the state of mind and giving up of attachment when one eats less. It was very relevant for me because when I eat less, more healthily or do more yoga or other exercise, it’s almost entirely prompted by attachment rather than by ‘giving up of attachment’;-) Anyway, hope you like these ones: ***** 1.Heat born of Kamma --------------------------- “For when there is no substance such as boiled rice in the stomach, that heat arises and seizes the stomach-walls and causes the being to cry out thus, “I am hungry; give me food.” When he has eaten, the heat releases the stomach-walls and seizes the substance. Then the person is quieted in mind. For as a hungry demon seizes him who enters the shade of the tree, binds him with spirit-chains and rejoicing in his own abode, comes when hungry and bites him on the head, so that the person cies out til....” Atthasalini, Derived material Qualities, p431 (PTS) ***** 2. Meal Intoxication ----------------------- “bhattasammada (meal intoxication), bhuttaavissa (in one who has eaten)=bhuttavato. Bhattamucchaa (giddiness due to food) is sickness due to food; for through much one comes to giddiness. Bhattakilamatho (distress due to food) is a distressed state due to food. Bhattapari.laaho (fever due to food) is discomfort due to food; for at that time the body hurts since its faculties are oppressed and it comes to a state of fever. Kaayadu.t.tulla.m (bodily inertia) is bodily unwieldiness due to food. Sammohavinodani2, class. of the Minor Bases, p235 (Masefield trans) ***** 3. Moderation -------------- “When a man is always mindful, Knowing moderation in the food he eats, His ailments then diminish: He ages slowly, guarding his life.” SN, Sagathavagga, A Bucket measure of Food, p.176 (BB trans) ***** “And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu moderate in eating? Here, reflecting wisely, a bhikkhu takes food neither for amusement nor for intoxication nor for the sake of physical beauty and attractiveness, but only for support and maintenance of this body, for ending discomfort, and for assisting the holy life, considering: “Thus I shall terminate the old feeling and not arouse a new feeling, and I shall be healthy and blameless and live in comfort.” Just as a person anoints a wound only for the purpose of enabling it to heal......” SN, Salayatanavagga, Simile of the Chariot, p.1240 (Also see Vism,1<89f> for more detail) ***** 4.For assisting the life of Purity ------------------------------------ “..for the purpose of assisting the life of purity consisting in the whole dispensation and the life of purity consisting in the path. For while this (bhikkhu) is engaged in crossing the desert of existence by means of devotion to the three trainings depending on bodily strength whose necessary condition is the use of alms food, he makes use of it to asist the life of purity .....just as those seeking to cross a river use a raft...” Vism, 1 <92> ***** “Furthermore, seven things lead to the arising of the tranquillity (passaddhi) enlightenment factor: (1) use of good food, (2) use of good weather, (3)use of a pleasant posture, (4) keeping to the middle, (5) avoidance of persons who are physically violent, (6) cultivation of persons who are bodily tranquil, (7) being resloved thereon. (1) Tranquillity arises in one who eats mild, suitable food...........But this is not said with reference to one who, with a nature like that of a Great Man, can bear all kinds of weather and postures; but to one for whom some kinds of weather and postures are contrary, it arises when he avoids the contrary kinds of weather and postures and uses favourable ones.” Sammohavinodani, Classif. of the Foundations of Mindfulness, p347 (PTS) ***** 5 Different Needs --------------------- “Food: Sweet food suits one, sour food another. Climate: a cool climate suits one, a warm one another. So when he finds that by using certain food or by living in a certain climate he is comfortable, or his unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated, or his concentrated mind becomes more so, then that food or that climate is suitable. Any other food or climate is unsuitable. Postures: walking suits one; standing or sitting or lying down suits another. So he should try them, like the abode, for three days each, and then that posture is suitable.....” Vism 1V<40> ***** “Sammi~njite pasaarite (“In bending and stretching”): in the bending and stretching of the limbs. Herein “clear comprehension of benefit” is the choosing of the beneficial, by choosing between the beneficial and the non-beneficial, that would be caused by the bending or stretching of the hand or foot, and without doing the bending or stretching as the immediate consequence of the thought itself. Herein, in one who remains too long with hand or foot bent only or stretched only, feelings arise from moment to moment. he does not get one-pointedness of mind.....” Sammohavinodani2, Class. of the Jhanas,p84 (Masefield) ***** “But among crude and refined, sour and sweet, etc, the food which produces discomfort in one is unsuitable. But that which is received by hinting, etc and that which increases unprofitable states and decreases profitable states is quite unsuitable. The opposite kind is suitable. ‘Clear comprehension of suitability’ should be understood here as that.” Sammohavinodani 2, Class. of the Jhanas, p87 ***** 6.Contentedness ------------------- “Take the case, moreover, of the monk who acquires almsfood, be it coarse or choice. With this alone he sustains himself; he does not wish for any other, nor does he, even when acquiring same, make use of such. This is, with respect to almsfood, his contentedness as accords with its acquisition. On the other hand, if he has some affliction, he ends up, upon consuming almsfood that is either coarse, disagreeable by nature or disagreeable to one with disease, with some intense impediment in the form of ill-health;.......Thus, with respect to almsfood, his contentedness as accords with one’s strength....” Udana commentary,Meghiya chapter, p586 (Masefield trans) .......... “The ascetic Akitti searched for Kara leaves that were sufficient for only one meal a day, because he found that searching for food for two meals would not lead to the eradication of defilements. This is the perfection of patience, because his life was not involved with the urge to eat.” The Perfections by A.Sujin, ‘Morality’ ***** 7.Pride ------- “Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health; pride of youth........pride of form; pride of (bodily) perfection;......” Vibhanga, Analysis of Small Items, p452 (PTS) ***** “And as regards vanity of health (aarogyamada) and so on, the conceit that arises as intoxication thus: “I am healthy; the rest are unhealthy; ‘there is no sickness in me even for as long as it takes to milk a cow’ is called “vanity of health”. The conceit that arises as intoxication thus: “I am young; the person of other beings is like a tree growing on a cliff. But I am in the first stage (of life)’ is called “vanity of youth” (yobbanamada).........The conceit that arises as intoxication thus: ‘the bodies of the rest of beings are unshapely, misshapen, but mine is agreeable and pleasing’ is called “vanity of shape” (sa.n.thaanamada). The conceit that arises as intoxication thus: ‘The bodies of the rest of beings have many faults, but in my body there is not even the tip of a hair to be criticised’ is called “vanity of perfection” (paaripuurimada). Sammohavinodani2, Class. of Minor Bases, p223 (Masefield) ***** I hope there’s something here for everyone to consider....Of course, with regard to the last quote on conceit, when we consider ourselves less healthy, less youthful or less shapely/perfect than others, there's also mana (conceit) too;-) Sarah ===== 14409 From: goglerr Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 6:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi Larry, Your post attracted my eyes. Kindly let me barge in. U said "I don't know how a Buddha knows things, but everyone else uses inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason. Without it, we couldn't even formulate the idea of phenomenalism. But I guess what we really want to know is how does a Buddha know dhammas." I would to remind us that the Buddha is only a teacher, a guide, an instructor or the one who show us the way. He is not the one walk the path for us, not the one who liberate us but we, ourselves have to follow the instructions, with humbleness and wisdom, which has been laid down by Him and the great elders of the past, for our own liberation. We have to realize the dhamma for ourselves as the Buddha (s) has realized for himself. Inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason are only one level on wisdom, but if we only stop here and not follow through, we are just only gaining some scholarly knowledge. So if we are wise, then we have to follow through, i.e. to know the dhamma for ourselves. Yes, we CAN directly know or experience them as the Buddha experienced them too. We can experience the different nature of mind and and body or rather the 5 aggregates. Then this becomes another level of wisdom, penatrative wisdom. As we experience them, we will come to know that they actually tally or go parallel with our scholarly Dhamma knowledge. And we still follow through, to know the nature of mind and body as constantly arising and passing away. And this too is another level of penatrative wisdom. And we carry on to follow through, deepening our wisdom, perceiving the anicca, dukkha and anatta through the arising and passing away of the nature of mind and body, until the arising of the ultimate wisdom, the total cessation of the mind and body. The question now is, how to develop these penatrative wisdom? I leave this to you, cos I think you know the `how'. G --- Larry wrote: > Hi Howard, you asked: > "How does one (anyone, including a Buddha) know a rupa that is not the > object of a citta?" > > I don't know how a Buddha knows things, but everyone else uses > inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason. > Without it, we couldn't even formulate the idea of phenomenalism. But I > guess what we really want to know is how does a Buddha know dhammas. > > I would also acknowledge that a phenomenalist perspective has proven > throughout the centuries to be an effective liberative technique. > > best wishes, Larry 14410 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Hi Larry, --- <> wrote: > H Frank, I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how a > worldly neutral > feeling is satisfying or dangerous. I guess I'm > ignorant. Duh, who > woulda thunk it? There's great Ajahn Chah story, goes something like this. One of the students asks him, "I can detect when aversion (the reaction to unpleasant feeling) arises, and I can detect when craving, (as the reaction to pleasant feeling) arises, but how do I detect delusion (the underlying root of neutral feeling)?" Ajahn Chah laughed out loud and said, "You are riding on the horse (of delusion) all the time and you're still looking for the horse!" ------------------------------- Another way to look at the 3 types of feelings: Delusion/avija/primordial ignorance is actually the underlying root of all 3 types of feelings. Craving and aversion are more immediate "causes" that are further down the chain, and because their disadvantages are more easily seen they are the focus of more discussion, but ignorance (of 4NT) is the root cause. Ignorance is not just a problem when craving and hatred arise. Ignorance (for the nonarhat)is a problem all the time, even when neutral feeling is predominant. -fk 14411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] expanded version of Abh ? Dear Rob M, It is better to keep the book as it is. Different groups use it for discussion. Of course, questions will always come up, they are endless. However, I would like people to use my last edition which has additions and footnotes: that is of 1997. This is on Zolag web. In letters I have written on various Dhamma topics. These can be found on: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.dhammastudy.com/ http://www.buddhadhamma.com/> Best wishes, from Nina. op 16-07-2002 19:16 schreef robmoult op <>: Have you considered releasing an expanded version of > ADL, to include some of the issues & misunderstandings raised in > this group? 14412 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how a > > worldly neutral > > feeling is satisfying or dangerous. To me, it makes more sense to apply the 5 aspects (origin, dissipation, gratification, danger, escape) to feeling as a class rather than applying it to each nuance of feeling. Otherwise, you get illogical weird artifacts like you point out above. Another one: how can unpleasant feeling be satisfying? -fk 14413 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Hi Sarah, Among the excerpts you listed, I did not see my favorite one. The one about the 2 parents and their only beloved child crossing the desert in a famine. I'll refrain from mentioning details, as I know some of us on dsg are kind of squeamish. But that simile is awesome in putting into perspective what role eating should constitute in our lives. -fk 14414 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] expanded version of Abh ? Hi Nina, Understood. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu, Rob M :-) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > It is better to keep the book as it is. Different groups use it for > discussion. Of course, questions will always come up, they are endless. > However, I would like people to use my last edition which has additions and > footnotes: that is of 1997. This is on Zolag web. > In letters I have written on various Dhamma topics. These can be found on: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ > http://www.buddhadhamma.com/> > > Best wishes, from Nina. > 14415 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:04am Subject: Dear O, (Num and Kom), I think we did it!! What an attractive group - clearly dsg-ers! Please go to http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst and click on photos 38 and 39. Yahoo wouldn't let me type in a longer description of the photos - so I'll have to tell the Group here that the first one is of Num and you at the Bridal Shop in Shop in San Francisco. The second one is of Kom, yourself, and Num when Num was transiting to Thailand via San Francisco. Everyone - O has offered a warm welcome to any DSG members passing through San Francisco and requests they get in touch (So she can collect more pictures! :):)) metta, Christine 14416 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:14am Subject: RE: [dsg] (unknown) Dear Chris (and K. O) If my picture keeps showing up like this, pretty soon, I will need one of those scarfs. Hmm... Maybe I can just run for the exit whenever I see a camera. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:04 PM > Subject: [dsg] (unknown) > > > Dear O, (Num and Kom), > > I think we did it!! What an attractive group - clearly dsg-ers! > Please go to > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > and click on photos 38 and 39. > Yahoo wouldn't let me type in a longer description of the photos - > so I'll have to tell the Group here that the first one is of Num and > you at the Bridal Shop in Shop in San Francisco. The second one is > of Kom, yourself, and Num when Num was transiting to Thailand via San > Francisco. > > Everyone - O has offered a warm welcome to any DSG members passing > through San Francisco and requests they get in touch (So she can > collect more pictures! :):)) > 14417 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:33am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:45 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) > > > Hi Frank and Kom, I wonder how these terms relate to a neither pleasant > nor painful feeling. Does that kind of feeling have a different origin, > satisfaction, and peril? 'Escape' seems a little odd in this case as > well. Any comments? > > Larry > > "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he > does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the satisfaction > nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it really is; a > tendency to ignorance is latent in him..." > I think the common origins (from dependent origination perspective) of all nama are ignorance and attachment. This includes the neutral feeling. The causes (from the conditionality perspectives) for neutral feelings are many. Frank has already given an example: the neutral feeling experienced at the 5th rupa jhana and above are much more refined than what we experience in the daily life. This is because the conditions of that jhanic netural feeling are different from those of everyday life's. The neutral feelings that appear on the 5 doors (excluding the body, where it must be bodily pleasant or bodily unpleasant) are also different: they all have different causes. The satisfaction is all the same everywhere: it's the attachment to whatever appears to the mind. The perils are also common. By way of the common characteristics: impermanence, dukkha, and anatta. By way of the dependent origination, with ignorance (and sometimes attachment) of the reality, the 5 kandhas are conditioned to arise, and we are stuck in the samsara... The escape ultimately always means nibbana, since it is where all conditioned realities cease. kom 14418 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:35am Subject: Re: pictures of O, Kom and Num was (unknown) Dear Kom, I know the feeling! However ..... we have our devious ways. There would simply be an extra note (with link), saying 'To find the answer to the question "Who is that masked man?", simply go to photo 39'. :)But at least you men don't suffer from the 'flat hair' and 'no make- up' syndrome. (Good morning Sukin and Sumane) :) metta, Chris --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Chris (and K. O) > > If my picture keeps showing up like this, pretty soon, I will need one of > those scarfs. Hmm... Maybe I can just run for the exit whenever I see a > camera. > > kom > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth > > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:04 PM > > Subject: [dsg] (unknown) > > > > > > Dear O, (Num and Kom), > > > > I think we did it!! What an attractive group - clearly dsg-ers! > > Please go to > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > and click on photos 38 and 39. > > Yahoo wouldn't let me type in a longer description of the photos - > > so I'll have to tell the Group here that the first one is of Num and > > you at the Bridal Shop in Shop in San Francisco. The second one is > > of Kom, yourself, and Num when Num was transiting to Thailand via San > > Francisco. > > > > Everyone - O has offered a warm welcome to any DSG members passing > > through San Francisco and requests they get in touch (So she can > > collect more pictures! :):)) > > 14419 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi again, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/17/02 6:25:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > It seems to me that one can *only* say that hardness occurs as the objective > > pole of a citta-aramanna event. > ========================== One more point with regard to this (to "underline it"): In one formulation of dependent arising, the Buddha said that vi~n~nana is condition for the arising of namarupa, and namarupa is condition for the arising of vi~n~nana, like two sheaves supporting each other, so that should either fall, so does the other. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14420 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:58am Subject: ADL ch. 16 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 16 (4) The five classes of arammana which are visible object, sound, smell, taste and bodily impressions are rupa ; the sixth class, the six kinds of dhammarammana, comprises cittas, cetasikas, pasada rupas, subtle rupas, nibbana and also pannatti. Different objects can be experienced through different doorways (in Pali : dvara). For example, the pasada-rupa in the eye (the rupa which has the capacity to receive visible object) is a necessary condition for citta to experience visible object. If there were not pasada-rupa in the eye, citta could not experience visible object. Cittas of the sense-door process know their objects through the doors of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue and the body-sense. As regards the door of the body-sense, the pasada-rupa which has the capacity to receive bodily impressions such as hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure, is any part of the body which can receive such impressions. Thus, any part of the body can be body-door, except those parts which have no sensitivity. Five doors are rupa and one door is nama. The mind-door is nama. The cittas of the mind-door process experience an object through the mind-door. Before the mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) arises there are the bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) and the bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga). The bhavangupaccheda, the citta preceding the mano-dvaravajjana-citta, is the mind-door. It is the 'doorway' through which mano-dvaravajjana-citta experiences its object. It is useful to know through which door cittas experience different objects. For example, visible object which is ruparammana can be experienced both through the eye-door and through the mind-door. It is experienced through the eye-door when it has not fallen away yet. When it is experienced by the cittas of the mind-door process following upon that eye-door process, it has just fallen away. When visible object is experienced through the mind-door the cittas only know visible object, they do not think of a person or a thing. But time and again there are also mind-door processes of cittas which think of people or things and then the object is a concept, not visible object. The experience of visible object conditions the thinking of concepts which arises later on. In both the sense-door process and the mind-door process, javana-cittas arise ; these javana-cittas are, if one is not an arahat, either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When visible object is experienced through the eye-door, one does not yet perceive a person or a thing, but, already in the sense-door process, attachment to what is seen can arise, or aversion towards it, or ignorance. Defilements are deeply rooted, they can arise through all six doors. We may think that the enslavement to the objects which are experienced through the sense-doors is caused by the objects. Defilements, however, are not caused by objects, they are accumulated in the citta which experiences the object. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Fourth Fifty, Ch. III, par. 191, Kotthika) that Sariputta and Maha-Kotthika were staying near Varanasi at Isipatana, in the Antelope Park. Kotthika said to Sariputta : 'How now, friend? Is the eye the bond of objects, or are objects the bond of the eye? Is the tongue the bond of savours, or are savours the bond of the tongue? Is mind the bond of mind-objects, or are mind-objects the bond of the mind?' 'Not so, friend Kotthika. The eye is not the bond of objects, nor are objects the bond of the eye, but that desire and lust that arise owing to these two. That is the bond. And so with the tongue and mind...it is the desire and lust that arise owing to savours and tongue, mind-objects and mind. Suppose, friend, two oxen, one white and one black, tied by one rope or one yoke-tie. Would one be right in saying that the black ox is the bond for the white one, or that the white ox is the bond for the black one?' 'Surely not. Friend.' 'That is right, friend. It is not so. But the rope or the yoke-tie which binds the two, - - that is the bond that unites them. So it is with the eye and objects, with tongue and savours, with mind and mind-objects. It is the desire and lust which are in them that form the bond that unites them. If the eye, friend, were the bond of objects, or if objects were the bond of the eye, then this righteous life for the utter destruction of dukkha, could not be proclaimed. But since it is not so, but the desire and lust which are in them is the bond, therefore is the righteous life for the utter destruction of dukkha proclaimed... There is in the Exalted One an eye, friend. The Exalted One sees an object with the eye. But in the Exalted One is no desire and lust. Wholly heart-free is the Exalted One. There is in the Exalted One a tongue...a mind. But in the Exalted One is no desire and lust. Wholly heart-free is the Exalted One. By this method, friend, you are to understand, as I said before, that the bond is the desire and lust which are in things. Questions 1. Through which doors can motion be experienced? 2. Through which door can body-sense be experienced? 3. What class of arammana (object) is cohesion? 4. What class of arammana is lobha-mula-citta (citta rooted in attachment? 5. Through which door can lobha-mula-citta be experienced? 6. Through which doors can lobha-mula-citta experience an object? 7. What class of arammana is cold? 8. What class of arammana is bodily painful feeling? 9. What class of arammana is mental unpleasant feeling? 10. What class of arammana is panna (wisdom)? 11. Is the word 'peace' an arammana? If so, what class? 12. How many doors are rupa and how many are nama? 13. Can visible object be experienced through the mind-door? 14. Is visible object dhammarammana? 15. How many ahetuka cittas have ruparammana (visible object) as object? 16. How many ahetuka cittas have dhammarammana as object? 17. Through how many doors does citta know ruparammana? 18. Through how many doors does citta know dhammarammana? 19. How many classes of arammana are known through the mind-door? 14421 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Frank and Kom, thanks for the clarifications. If I understand you correctly, neutral feeling should be regarded as feeling in general and attachment to pleasant feeling and aversion to unpleasant feeling are defeated by the same reasoning which defeats ignorance. I include the whole passage below to refresh everyone's memory. Larry -------------- The Buddha then explained about the person who has attachments, aversion or ignorance with regard to what he experiences through the six doors. We read : 'Monks, visual consciousness arises because of eye and visible object, the meeting of the three is contact; an experience arises conditioned by contact that is pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant. He, being impinged on by a pleasant feeling, delights, rejoices and persists in cleaving to it; a tendency to attachment is latent in him. Being impinged on by a painful feeling, he grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast and falls into disillusion; a tendency to repugnance is latent in him. Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the satisfaction nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it really is; a tendency to ignorance is latent in him...' The same is said with regard to the other doorways. The person who has 'wise attention' instead of attachment, aversion or ignorance can make an end to the cycle of birth and death. Further on we read : '... He, being impinged on by pleasant feeling, does not delight, rejoice or persist in cleaving to it; a tendency to attachment is not latent in him. Being impinged on by a painful feeling, he does not grieve, mourn, lament, beat his breast or fall into disillusion ; a tendency to repugnance is not latent in him. Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he comprehends the origin and the going down and the satisfaction and the peril of that feeling and the escape as it really is, a tendency to ignorance is not latent in him. That he, monks, by getting rid of any tendency to attachment to a pleasant feeling, by driving out any tendency to repugnance for a painful feeling, by rooting out any tendency to ignorance concerning a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, by getting rid of ignorance, by making knowledge arise, should here and now be an end-maker of dukkha--this situation exists. 14422 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Dear Goggler, thank you for your wise words but I had to laugh at this: "The question now is, how to develop these penatrative wisdom? I leave this to you, cos I think you know the `how´." The only 'how' I know is to jump in, but most of the time I miss the river all together. best wishes, Larry 14423 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Dear Larry & Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M > > > Hi Howard, you asked: > "How does one (anyone, including a Buddha) know a rupa that is not the > object of a citta?" > > I don't know how a Buddha knows things, but everyone else uses > inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason. > Without it, we couldn't even formulate the idea of phenomenalism. But I > guess what we really want to know is how does a Buddha know dhammas. > > I would also acknowledge that a phenomenalist perspective has proven > throughout the centuries to be an effective liberative technique. > > best wishes, Larry I personally am in the camp of "other objects, even when the don't appear, exist". I of course, cannot prove this absolutely (at the paramatha level), but the model of realities given by the abhidhamma allows convincing (to me) deductions. Before I go into the brief discussion of deductions, let me say that whether or not the other objects that don't appear exist or not is a moot dicussion. We can only study objects that appear, and not objects that don't appear. Therefore, the following discussions don't help anyone in reaching nibbana. 1) A citta can experience nama or rupa, one at a time. We know that for the nama at the 5-door to exist, it must experience the rupa. They both must co-exist even though perhaps only one is experienced. 2) Hardness doesn't appear out of nowhere, it must be conditioned to arise. The abhidhamma's model gives an explanation that, for a non-living object, the rupa arises from a previous rupa (Utu [or dejo, or fire dhatu]). If you experience hardness of a non-living object now, it can be deduced (from the explanation) that the conditions causing the hardness to arise is the fire dhatu of another group of rupa (not experienced). If one believes that rupa only exists while it is being experienced, then you must also believe that all rupas are conditioned to arise ry the cognition (of the mind) itself. This would seem to contradict my everyday (non-paramatha) observation of how the world works. kom 14424 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi Kom, this discusson reminds me of a way of discriminating between nama and rupa. That is, by discriminating between internal and external. Internal is nama and external is rupa. The key point is that there are no nama qualities in the rupa, although we do often forget that. Thinking that beautiful and ugly or even healthy and unhealthy are qualities of rupa. Basically this body is merely a nimble corpse; it doesn't touch or feel anything. Nama experiences touch and feeling. I would be interested to see how you and Howard understand this distinction. Larry ------------------ Kom wrote: I personally am in the camp of "other objects, even when the don't appear, exist". I of course, cannot prove this absolutely (at the paramatha level), but the model of realities given by the abhidhamma allows convincing (to me) deductions. Before I go into the brief discussion of deductions, let me say that whether or not the other objects that don't appear exist or not is a moot dicussion. We can only study objects that appear, and not objects that don't appear. Therefore, the following discussions don't help anyone in reaching nibbana. 1) A citta can experience nama or rupa, one at a time. We know that for the nama at the 5-door to exist, it must experience the rupa. They both must co-exist even though perhaps only one is experienced. 2) Hardness doesn't appear out of nowhere, it must be conditioned to arise. The abhidhamma's model gives an explanation that, for a non-living object, the rupa arises from a previous rupa (Utu [or dejo, or fire dhatu]). If you experience hardness of a non-living object now, it can be deduced (from the explanation) that the conditions causing the hardness to arise is the fire dhatu of another group of rupa (not experienced). If one believes that rupa only exists while it is being experienced, then you must also believe that all rupas are conditioned to arise by the cognition (of the mind) itself. This would seem to contradict my everyday (non-paramatha) observation of how the world works. kom 14425 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:12pm Subject: Assaji's Beautiful Brief Restatement Dear Dhamma Friends Sergei asked the following. "Does anyone know of a story that runs like this: The master is teaching in a grove of trees somewhere. A visitor approaches and asks, "What does this master teach?" and the reply from someone departing is "He teaches that everything that happens is caused. I saw this in a book one time and then couldn't find it again. Could anyone cite a sutra or some Buddhist commentary that contains this?" Sergei's question has reminded me of Assaji's beautiful brief restatement of the essence of the Buddha's teachings. Therefore, I wrote the following reply to him. I hope you also find it useful! Suan ------------------------------------------------------ Dear Sergei90245 How are you? I am not sure about your story. However, there is an episode of how Saariputta became the disciple of the Buddha after having met with Assaji, one of the First Five Disciples of the Buddha, and having listened to Assaji's brief restatement. The brief restatement, which is very beautiful, is as follows. "Ye dhammaa hetuppabhavaa, tesam hetum tathaagato aaha; tesañca yo nirodho, evamvaadii mahaasama.no"ti. "The Buddha Tathaagato told us the cause of those phenomena which have causes as their beginnings, and the cessation of those phenomena as well. The Great Ascetic is such a teacher." The above episode and that beautiful brief restatement can be found in Section 60, Mahaakhandhako, Mahaavaggo, Vinaya Pi.taka. (Roman Edition, Volume One, page. 39) "Tesañca yo nirodhoti tesam ubhinnampi saccaanam yo appavattinirodho; tañca tathaagato aahaati attho." "Tesañca yo nirodho" means that the Buddha Tathaagato also taught the cessation, the no-longer-arising, of both those truths, namely the Noble Truth of Misery and the Noble Truth of Attachment (i.e, both phenomena and their causes)." The above quote comes from the commentary on Mahaavaggo, Vinaya Pi.tako. I hope that the above information satisfied your curiosity somewhat before someone else could locate the exact story you are after. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ 14426 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class Dear Rob M, Excellent that you want the Abh study relevant for daily life. 75 minutes is long, is there a tea break? It would help if the 75 minutes are spent by way of question and answer related to the subject. I hope you can meet A. Sujin one day, you are in the region. Now you have quite a list, and it may be good if you remind us all of the next topic, one at a time. Because it is really useful and interesting to see what different people write and what points they stress in accordance with their accumulations. So, the next one is adosa: khanti and metta. Nothing is really easy I find, especially when it comes to the practice. You may like the Roots of Good and Evil, Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 251-253. Also under useful posts you may find the subjects of metta and patience. Or A. Sujin's book which I translated: Metta, Loving kindness in Buddhism, which is on line: Zolag. She gives guidance on the development of metta and points out the impediments. I shall select some of her points, but I do hope others in this forum will help also, especially handing out examples from daily life. That is what you want, you have plenty of books already. You could also try my "Perfections leading to Enlightenment", on Abh. Org. web. It could give you ideas about metta, upekkha, etc. It is difficult to treat a subject in isolation, everything is connected with everything. When you speak about metta, TMt is also hard at work. When you speak about the abstinences you have to speak about metta, which is very necessary for abstention from evil. It is all most intricate. What is sangdikha dana? Is the class in China? You have to travel a lot. Best wishes, Nina. op 17-07-2002 22:35 schreef robmoult op <>: > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > life, drive people to action. This is where I am hoping to get help > from this group. I have lots of reference books (I recently picked > up more than 50 books/booklets on a trip to Colombo). What I am > looking for are ways of making the material come alive to a non- > academic group of parents. > > The class schedule for the next few weeks is as follows: > Jul 21 - Sangdikha Dana (no class) > Jul 28 - Tatramajjhattata / six pairs > Aug 4 - Adosa (Khanti + Metta) > Aug 11 - I will probably be on vacation > Aug 18 - Start the wholesome occasional cetasikas (Vaci-duccarita > Virati - abstinence from wrong speech ) > Aug 25 - Kaya-duccarita Virati (Abstinence from Wrong Action) > > Metta is a farily easy topic to make relevant to people's lives, but > I would be happy to start collecting ideas on how to make the three > abstinences more interesting. 14427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Howard, Sarah and I wrote about rupas before, and I know that what I have written does not always agree with your phenomenolgical outlook on life. A few days ago you called out, this is phenomenology, when reading a part of my Abh on objects and doors. I was surprised. What in particular was in agreement with your outlook? I do not know quite how to answer your questions. Hardness does not exist on its own, it is part of a group of rupas, kalapa, which arise and fall away. Some more about the table out there: what we call a table are in fact lots of groups of rupas arising and falling away, conditioned by heat. In each group of rupas out there there are: the four Great elements of earth, water, fire, wind. Earth is the foundation of the other rupas, water or cohesion holds them together. There are also the four derived rupas of colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. Only one of these rupas can be experienced at a time. If you lick at what we call a table flavour may appear: when flavour is the object of citta, all the accompanying rupas are there together with flavour in a group, but they are not experienced. For Howard, there is nothing in the world at that moment, except flavour and that is right. But there is no Howard who experiences, tasting experiences the flavour. When you smell what we call a table, odour appears, the other rupas are there together with odour, but they do not appear. As regards nutrition, there may not be Howard food, but insects may like to eat it. Thus there are many rupas but not all of them can be experienced at the same time. The Visuddhimagga classifies rupas as internal and external, as far and near. I quote part of my Rupas, with the risk that you do not like it :-) : Thus, there are rupas which are not suitable for comprehension. Anyway, you do not have to occupy yourself with those. We can start with what can be directly experienced. But there is more under the sun. Best wishes from Nina. op 18-07-2002 00:24 schreef Howard op Howard: > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > When hardness is not the object of a citta, *where* does it abide? It > is a rupa, but not always an aramanna. So what is its existential status when > not an object? Where is it? In the land of Plato's ideals??? ;-)) > My not so subtle point is that I do not buy the idea of rupas existing > independently of vi~n~nana. One cannot say, for example, that hardness exists > as a characteristic of some "thing out there" like a table, or a floor, or a > tree, because these are just concepts. And one also cannot say that hardness > exists in some disembodied fashion all on its own, in some Platonic heaven. > It seems to me that one can *only* say that hardness occurs as the objective > pole of a citta-aramanna event. > ============================= 14428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) objects in the mind-door process. Dear Larry, When the mind-door process follows upon a sense-door process, say, eye-door process, the visible object has only just fallen away when it is experienced by cittas of the mind-door process. Rupa does not last longer than 17 moments of cittas, thus, it has fallen away when the succeeding mind-door process begins. Someone asked A. Sujin whether visible object experienced through the mind-door is the same as visible object experienced through the eye-door, and she said, exactly the same. Just because of the speed of the cittas that succeed one another. All javana cittas in one process experience the same object. When the object of the cittas in the mind-door process is a nama, that object has fallen away but it can still be experienced. I hope this clarifies somewhat, Nina. op 18-07-2002 04:40 schreef <> op <>: > While I have your eye, I wanted to ask you how long the objects in > mind-door process last. For example, are there 7 different objects > during the javana series? > > 14429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 3, no 2: Perfections, Ch 3, no 2. Sakka thought that if Akitti would aspire to become Sakka he would fulfill the perfection of generosity, dåna, and give away his food. We read: When the ascetic Akitti noticed that the brahmin was in need of food, he took the sodden Kåra leaves and gave them all to the brahmin. He did the same the second day and the third day. Here we see that the kusala he performed at those times were actually the perfections of generosity, dåna, of morality, síla, of renunciation, nekkhamma, of patience, khanti, of energy, viriya, of determination or steadfastness, adiììhåna, and of truthfulness, sacca, that is, sincerity in the performing of kusala. He fulfilled the perfections in order to attain Buddhahood. All perfections are interrelated and they support one another. Akitti was steadfast in generosity, he did not hesitate because of avarice. He did not long for anything in life, not even for something very slight. This is the perfection of sincerity. We read: The ascetic Akitti was unshakable in generosity while he offered his sodden Kåra leaves for three consecutive days. He fulfilled the perfection of loving kindness, mettå, by his disposition to give assistance to all beings. He fulfilled the perfection of equanimity, upekkhå, by evenmindedness or neutrality, not being disturbed by contrariness in conduct of people or contrariness in phenomena. Sakka begged for food for three consecutive days, but the ascetic Akitti was unshakable in his determination to give, and he gave, no matter who was asking. We read: As regards the perfection of paññå, he knows which dhammas are beneficial conditions for the fulfillment of the perfections and which are not. He abandons the dhammas which are not beneficial and he directs his practice towards those which are beneficial. When Sakka knew the disposition of the ascetic Akitti, he offered a boon, whereupon the Great Being, the ascetic Akitti, explained the Dhamma with regard to the receiving of boons. Further on in the Commentary we read: Sakka noticed that the ascetic Akitti dwellt in contentedness. He asked him: ³What, great Brahmin, are you wishing for, that you are dwelling here all alone in the heat?² Sakka interrogated Akitti because he wanted to know about his sincerity in practising virtue to the highest degree, so that even Sakka called him great Brahmin. We read: Akitti answered, ³Sakka, King of the devas, rebirth is dukkha, the breaking up of the body is dukkha, and dying with delusion is dukkha. Therefore I dwell here all alone.² Sakka answered: ³Well spoken Kassapa 2) , you expressed this very well. I will give you a boon, choose whatever you wish.² One may have wonder what this means. Here the firm determination for the development of kusala is shown of the ascetic Akitti who wishes for a boon. The boon that he wishes for are all ten perfections. Footnote: 2. This may have been the name of his clan, the Kassapa clan. 14430 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi, Larry (and Kom) - In a message dated 7/18/02 9:54:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Kom, this discusson reminds me of a way of discriminating between > nama and rupa. That is, by discriminating between internal and external. > Internal is nama and external is rupa. The key point is that there are > no nama qualities in the rupa, although we do often forget that. > Thinking that beautiful and ugly or even healthy and unhealthy are > qualities of rupa. Basically this body is merely a nimble corpse; it > doesn't touch or feel anything. Nama experiences touch and feeling. > > I would be interested to see how you and Howard understand this > distinction. > > Larry > =========================== What you are asking for is the distinction between what appears at the mind door and at the other sense doors. I can no better express this in words than I can express in words the difference between visual objects and auditory objects. We know them when we see, hear, or "mentate" them! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14431 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:08am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard [mailto:Howard] > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:29 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M > > > > Hi Kom, this discusson reminds me of a way of discriminating between > > nama and rupa. That is, by discriminating between internal and external. > > Internal is nama and external is rupa. The key point is that there are > > no nama qualities in the rupa, although we do often forget that. > > Thinking that beautiful and ugly or even healthy and unhealthy are > > qualities of rupa. Basically this body is merely a nimble corpse; it > > doesn't touch or feel anything. Nama experiences touch and feeling. > > > > I would be interested to see how you and Howard understand this > > distinction. > > > > Larry > > I don't think I can summarize this better than you have already done! kom 14432 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/19/02 1:01:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Hi, Howard, > Sarah and I wrote about rupas before, and I know that what I have written > does not always agree with your phenomenolgical outlook on life. A few days > ago you called out, this is phenomenology, when reading a part of my Abh on > objects and doors. I was surprised. What in particular was in agreement > with > your outlook? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: For example, you wrote "When we touch the log of wood, hardness or cold, for example, can be experienced through the body-sense. We take the log of wood for a thing which lasts, but what we call 'log of wood' are many different rupas which arise and fall away." When and where do they arise and fall away? I presumed you meant that they arise with a citta-process and fall away with the termination of that process. But evidently I'm wrong in this presumption. So I still must ask how one knows about paramattha dhammas that are not cognized, and also ask where dhammas such as hardness, or warmth, or greenness abide when not cognized. The average person "knows" where a tree is - he/she will tell us that it is "out there" in the world, most particularly on their front lawn or in the back yard, and that hardness, roughness, leaf-shapes, greenness, and brownness are all just characteristics of that tree. But Abhidhamma tells us, I understand, that trees are mere concept, and all that is "real" are the hardness, roughness, leaf-shapes, greenness, and brownness. So, when these paramattha dhammas are not experienced, where are they, in what sense do they exist, and how are they known to exist? The fact that they co-occur tells us what? That they are interrelated? Or that the package comprised of them is not mere concept but also is "real". And even if that latter proposition were true, though it seems to contradict the Abhidhamma understanding of pa~n~natti, one would still be justified in asking where and in what manner such a package of dhammas, when they are not cognized, exists. As I see it, paramattha dhammas and relations among them are all that actually exist, their existence being fleeting and interdependent with the knowing of them, and conditioned by previous dhammas. When they are not cognized, they are mere possibilities/potentialities, possibilities which become actualities only when the necessary conditions for their arising have occurred. To be sure, there is a lawfulness to the arising of related dhammas, and to be sure, there is an intersubjectivity to experience - we are not in this realm alone, but these facts do not imply anything beyond the lawfulness of conditionality and certain commonalities of experience among sentient beings. -------------------------------------------------------------- > I do not know quite how to answer your questions. Hardness does not exist on > its own, it is part of a group of rupas, kalapa, which arise and fall away. > Some more about the table out there: what we call a table are in fact lots > of groups of rupas arising and falling away, conditioned by heat. In each > group of rupas out there there are: > the four Great elements of earth, water, fire, wind. Earth is the > foundation > of the other rupas, water or cohesion holds them together. There are also > the four derived rupas of colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. > Only one of these rupas can be experienced at a time. If you lick at what > we > call a table flavour may appear: when flavour is the object of citta, all > the accompanying rupas are there together with flavour in a group, but they > are not experienced. For Howard, there is nothing in the world at that > moment, except flavour and that is right. But there is no Howard who > experiences, tasting experiences the flavour. When you smell what we call a > table, odour appears, the other rupas are there together with odour, but > they do not appear. As regards nutrition, there may not be Howard food, but > insects may like to eat it. > Thus there are many rupas but not all of them can be experienced at the > same > time. > The Visuddhimagga classifies rupas as internal and external, as far and > near. I quote part of my Rupas, with the risk that you do not like it :-) > : > kinds > of rúpa are gross: visible object, sound, odour, flavour and the three > great > elements which are tangible object (excluding cohesion), as well as the > five > sense-organs. They are gross because of impinging; visible object impinges > on the eyesense, sound impinges on the earsense, and each of the other > sense > objects impinges on the appropriate sense-base. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Where are those visible objects, sounds, and other sense objects when not cognized? If we say they exist as characteristics of conventional objects such as trees and tables, then we are not talking Abhidhamma. What sort of visual image is unseen? What sort of sound is unheard? (Compaction and rarefaction of matter moving as a wave? That is mere concept!) ---------------------------------------------------------- The other sixteen kinds of> > rúpa are subtle. What is subtle is called ³far² because it is difficult to > penetrate, whereas what is gross is called ³near², because it is easy to > penetrate (Vis. XIV, 73). > Furthermore, other distinctions can be made. Rúpas can be classified as > sabhava rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct nature, and asabhava rúpas, > rúpas without their own distinct nature. The twelve gross rúpas and six > among the subtle rúpas that are: cohesion, nutrition, life faculty, > heart-base, femininity and masculinity are rupas each with their own > distinct nature and characteristic, they are sabhåva rúpas. > The other ten subtle rúpas do not have their own distinct nature, they are > asabhåva rúpas. Among these are the two kinds of intimation, bodily > intimation and speech intimation, which are a ³certain, unique change² in > the eight inseparable rúpas produced by citta. Moreover, the three > qualities > of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness that can be classified together > with > the two rúpas of intimation as vikåra rúpas (rúpa as changeability or > alteration). Furthermore, there is the rúpa space (akåsa or pariccheda > rúpa) > that delimits the groups of rúpa. Also included are the four rúpas that are > characteristics of rúpa, namely birth, continuity, decay and impermanence. > Rúpas can be classified as produced rúpas, nipphanna rúpas, and unproduced > rúpas, anipphanna rúpas. The sabhåva rúpas are also called ³produced², > whereas the asabhåva rúpas are also called ³unproduced²5. The ³produced > rúpas² which each have their own characteristic are, as the ³Visuddhimagga² > (XVIII, 13) explains, ³suitable for comprehension², that is, they are > objects of which right understanding can be developed. For example, visible > object or hardness have characteristics that can be objects of awareness > when they appear, and they can be realized by paññå as they are, as > non-self. The ³unproduced rúpas² are ³not suitable for comprehension² since > they are qualities of rúpa such as changeability or the rúpa that delimits > groups of rúpas. If one does not know this distinction one may be led to > wrong practice of insight; someone may imagine that he can be directly > aware > of ³unproduced rúpas², that are not concrete matter, such as lightness of > matter.> > > Thus, there are rupas which are not suitable for comprehension. Anyway, you > do not have to occupy yourself with those. We can start with what can be > directly experienced. But there is more under the sun. > Best wishes from Nina. > > ============================ Nina, I do not "insist" on my phenomenalist position. But I have a problem with seeing how an "objectivist" view (to use an Ayn Randian phrase) is compatible with the Dhamma, especially with Abhidhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14433 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Dear Kom and Howard, I was trying to get you guys to debate one another, not debate me. The issue is how do you understand the difference between nama and rupa (this differentiation being a key 'first step' on the path of purification, I think?). Is the phenomenalist perspective saying all there is is experience? If so, wouldn't that necessitate that _both_ rupa and citta are equally ficticious, or at least equally conventional? I was thinking of this as a possible 'next step' after a more dualistic discrimination. Or are the two views incompatible? I'm not exactly crystal clear on phenomenology or the correct way to understand nama and rupa or the remainder of the path of purification. It's all a bit murky. Does this make sense? Larry 14434 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight Jon, Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand that you have doubts about my approach. What is my approach? To make it clear, it is to follow the Buddha's instruction on being mindful of breathing as recorded in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Regards, Victor --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > Hi Jon and all, > > Hmmm, this thread is not mine anyway. > > Questions: > 1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and > how is that accomplished? > > Answers: > Unskillful qualities are to be understood as passion, aversion, and > delusion. They are also to be understood as sensual desire, ill- > will, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and worry, and doubt. When > one withdraws from sensuality and unskillful qualities, one abandons > them. How is that accomplished? Please refer this discourse in > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn020.html > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Jon: > I think we are going around in circles here, Victor ;-)). You refer above > to the abandoning of the hindrances (I think), but in the texts this > normally implies jhana. This would mean that before sitting down to focus > on the breath (in order to develop Right Concentration), jhana would be > needed first. > > Is this how you see it? > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > Question: > 2. What is the difference in the mental state between-- > a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and > b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and > whose mind is focussed on in and out breathing? > > For Question 2, Jon, I would suggest to: > Sit in a secluded place with leg crossed and eye closed. Withdraw > from sensuality and unskillful qualities. Focus on in and out > breathing. See for yourself, Jon. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Jon: > In asking this question, I had in mind that a mind that is focussed on the > breath could be either kusala or akusala. Since the purpose here is the > development of Right Concentration, which obviously arises only with > kusala citta, is it your view that mind with breath as object is more > likely to be kusala than mind without breath as object? I am not aware of > any basis for that in the texts. And anyway, how would a person know > whether the citta is kusala or akusala? > > Alternatively, if you are postulating a mind that is already kusala -- > since you refer to 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskilful qualities' (a > pretty big 'if', I believe) -- then what additional benefit do you see as > following from focussing the mind on breath? > > You suggest that rather than seek to understand the theory I should simply > try it and see for myself. I am not aware of the Buddha ever suggesting > or endorsing this approach. Indeed, he spent the whole of his life after > enlightenment explaining the why's and wherefore's to those who would > listen (many became enlightened while listening and considering as he > spoke). > > Quite apart from the doubts I have about your approach, the state of being > 'withdrawn from sensuality and unskilful qualities' doesn't sound like me, > so I don't think I even make it to first base ;-)) > > Joking aside though, Victor, it is useful to exchange views on these > important areas, and I am grateful for the opportunity to do so with you. > > Jon > > > 14435 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) objects in the mind-door process. Thanks Nina, this is interesting and furthers understanding. best wishes, Larry ----------------- Nina wrote: Dear Larry, When the mind-door process follows upon a sense-door process, say, eye-door process, the visible object has only just fallen away when it is experienced by cittas of the mind-door process. Rupa does not last longer than 17 moments of cittas, thus, it has fallen away when the succeeding mind-door process begins. Someone asked A. Sujin whether visible object experienced through the mind-door is the same as visible object experienced through the eye-door, and she said, exactly the same. Just because of the speed of the cittas that succeed one another. All javana cittas in one process experience the same object. When the object of the cittas in the mind-door process is a nama, that object has fallen away but it can still be experienced. I hope this clarifies somewhat, Nina. 14436 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there --- Howard wrote: > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > For example, you wrote "When we touch the log of wood, hardness or > cold, for example, can be experienced through the body-sense. We take the log > of wood for a thing which lasts, but what we call 'log of wood' are many > different rupas which arise and fall away." > When and where do they arise and fall away? _--------------- Dear Howard, They arise and fall away immediately - it is happening so fast, whether one knows it or not. Even this whole universe , every tiny kalapa only last for the briefest instant. -------------- I presumed you meant that > they arise with a citta-process and fall away with the termination of that > process. But evidently I'm wrong in this presumption. > So I still must ask how one knows about paramattha dhammas that are > not cognized, and also ask where dhammas such as hardness, or warmth, or > greenness abide when not cognized. The average person "knows" where a tree is > - he/she will tell us that it is "out there" in the world, most particularly > on their front lawn or in the back yard, and that hardness, roughness, > leaf-shapes, greenness, and brownness are all just characteristics of that > tree. But Abhidhamma tells us, I understand, that trees are mere concept, and > all that is "real" are the hardness, roughness, leaf-shapes, greenness, and > brownness. ________ I do not think the Abhidhamma says that leaf-shape is a paramattha dhamma. I think you know that every kalapa is comprised of eight types of rupa at a minimum. What we call a tree comprises trillions of extraordinarily evanescent kalapas. _______ So, when these paramattha dhammas are not experienced, where are > they, in what sense do they exist, and how are they known to exist? The fact > that they co-occur tells us what? That they are interrelated? Or that the > package comprised of them is not mere concept but also is "real". And even if > that latter proposition were true, though it seems to contradict the > Abhidhamma understanding of pa~n~natti, one would still be justified in > asking where and in what manner such a package of dhammas, when they are not > cognized, exists. ------------------------ We know this from the teachings and from inference. I find it difficult to see how you can believe that while you are asleep , for instant, that the entire material universe has truly disappeared - and that even while awake only the very tiny parts you experience exist. It would mean the whole universe comes into being only for Howard, as if you were the creator. But anyway rupas are conditioned by several factors, not only citta. ------------------ > > Howard: > Where are those visible objects, sounds, and other sense objects when > not cognized? If we say they exist as characteristics of conventional objects > such as trees and tables, then we are not talking Abhidhamma. What sort of > visual image is unseen? What sort of sound is unheard? (Compaction and > rarefaction of matter moving as a wave? That is mere concept!) > ---------------------------------------------------------- Sound arises because it is conditioned to arise - whether it is experienced or not. For example, while I am writing this my son just came in and asked a question. You can't hear these sounds - in this case called vacivinnati(verbal intimation) but I can assure you there was sound and that indeed I experience sounds everyday. Even though you don't experience those sounds doesn't make them less real. Robert 14437 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob Mnan Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/19/02 6:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Dear Kom and Howard, I was trying to get you guys to debate one another, > not debate me. The issue is how do you understand the difference > between nama and rupa (this differentiation being a key 'first step' on > the path of purification, I think?). > ------------------------------------------ Howard: It seems easy to me to distinguish mental (nama) from physical (rupa). At least I don't believe I confuse them. Desires, aversions, feelings, thoughts, memories, and discernment (vi~n~nana) itself are experienced quite differently from sights, sounds, tastes, hardness/softness, pressures, aches, textures etc. As I understand it, phenomenalism is simply the position that all that is known or knowable is what is experienced, and radical phenomenalism amounts to the mix of phenomenalism with pragmatism which says that whatever is in principle unknowable is, for all intents and purposes, nonexistent. Experience, at least the dualistic experience of worldlings, consists of what Bhikkhu ~Nanananda, in his commentary on the Kalakarama Sutta, refers to as the vi~n~nana-namarupa "vortex", that meeting point of citta and arammana where there is merely the seen, the heard, the tasted, the smelled, the touched, and the cognized (i.e., namarupa) co-occurring with the act of discernment (i.e., vi~n~nana), two sheaves mutually supporting each other. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Is the phenomenalist perspective saying all there is is experience? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Ot at least that all that can be known and pragmatically presumed to exist is that which is experienced. ----------------------------------------------------- If> > so, wouldn't that necessitate that _both_ rupa and citta are equally > ficticious, or at least equally conventional? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see why. The fact that citta and arammana (and the object may be either nama or rupa) are interdependent, doesn't make either of them fictitious. It merely makes them two opposing aspects of one experiential event. Think of a box: there is no inside without an outside, and no outside without an inside, but that doen't make either of these fictitious (to use a conventional analogy). -------------------------------------------------------- > > I was thinking of this as a possible 'next step' after a more dualistic > discrimination. Or are the two views incompatible? I'm not exactly > crystal clear on phenomenology or the correct way to understand nama and > rupa or the remainder of the path of purification. It's all a bit murky. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm trying to get your meaning here. I think that perhaps you are considering that there is a unity of opposites involved, and that the vi~n~nana-namarupa (or citta-arammana) event is a nondual reality which lies "a step beyond". Well, I think that this has a lot to it! I personally see the cognitive event of knowing an object to be primary, with the knowing and the known being interdependent aspects of that event. But this does not make either the knowing or the known fictitious or nonexistent; it merely makes them mutually conditioned and, thereby, empty of self. As I see it, the mutual dependence of subject and object is part of their emptiness. The rest of reason for their emptiness is their dependence on previous conditions for their arising. Emptiness of most dhammas comes from conditionality. The exception to this is nibbana. Nibbana is empty in a more thorough way, being the complete absence of all possible conditions, making it the ultimate emptiness, making it "the other" of all conditions. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does this make sense? > > Larry > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14438 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:11am Subject: Vegetarianism Hi all, I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the menu or buy it in the supermarket. My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for wide interpretation." I pondered. My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? Thanks, Rob M :-) 14439 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class Hi Nina, 75 minutes does sound like a long time, but it goes quickly. I prepare a lot and sometimes, I go over my time. The tea break is after my class and before Bro. Teo's class (also 75 minutes). We then have a 30 minute break before our hour of vipassana. It is a great way to spend a Sunday morning (8:45 – 13:00). Depending on the subject, there can be a lot of Q&A, though Asians are nowhere near as forthcoming as Westerners are. I will make an effort to meet A. Sujin the next time I go to Bangkok. I really appreciate all the pointers to additional material that you have given me. I would say that I feel very lucky to have stumbled across the DSG, but I can't say this as "feeling lucky" is a form of mana (conceit) :-) I would really appreciate input from the DSG on practical application of Khanti and Metta. I have lots of theory, what I am looking for are practical tips on making Khanti and Metta a bigger part of our daily lives. A sangdikha dana is a tradition in our Vihara (perhaps it is uniquely Sri Lankan) whereby we "sponsor" a vegetarian lunch for the monks and any other devotees who want to partake. The teacher of the "Buddhism for Beginners" class for 20 years recently passed away and so his ex-students (most of the teachers and adult students in the Vihara) are performing this sangdikha dana to transfer the merit to him. We have collected more than US$600 to pay the caterers (that's a lot of noodles) and many people are bringing additional food as well. There are a lot of people at the Vihara, so the food won't go to waste. The classes are in Malaysia, but I travel to China for work. Most of China (except Tibet) is Mahayana, but there is some Theravada in Yunnan province (Kunming). So far, I don't have any Dhamma-friends in China. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > Excellent that you want the Abh study relevant for daily life. 75 minutes is > long, is there a tea break? It would help if the 75 minutes are spent by way > of question and answer related to the subject. I hope you can meet A. Sujin > one day, you are in the region. > Now you have quite a list, and it may be good if you remind us all of the > next topic, one at a time. Because it is really useful and interesting to > see what different people write and what points they stress in accordance > with their accumulations. > So, the next one is adosa: khanti and metta. Nothing is really easy I find, > especially when it comes to the practice. You may like the Roots of Good and > Evil, Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 251-253. Also under useful posts you may find > the subjects of metta and patience. Or A. Sujin's book which I translated: > Metta, Loving kindness in Buddhism, which is on line: Zolag. She gives > guidance on the development of metta and points out the impediments. I shall > select some of her points, but I do hope others in this forum will help > also, especially handing out examples from daily life. That is what you > want, you have plenty of books already. > You could also try my "Perfections leading to Enlightenment", on Abh. Org. > web. It could give you ideas about metta, upekkha, etc. > It is difficult to treat a subject in isolation, everything is connected > with everything. When you speak about metta, TMt is also hard at work. When > you speak about the abstinences you have to speak about metta, which is very > necessary for abstention from evil. It is all most intricate. > What is sangdikha dana? Is the class in China? You have to travel a lot. > Best wishes, > Nina. > 14440 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:26am Subject: Re: Vegetarianism Hi Rob M, The Precepts, as I understand, are training rules not Commandments, but this is a question and comes up often on discussion lists, and in interaction with others in my life as well ... I did become a vegetarian for a while, and enjoyed it, until I realised how many sentient beings are destroyed (literally in the millions) for each acre of vegetables ploughed, fertilised and sprayed. And yet, vegetarians keep buying vegetables and fruits, or even gardening themselves. Interesting. Everything we do can cause harm. A few links for your weekend reading. :) metta, Christine On Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm Buddhism and Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha151.htm Buddhism and Vegetarianism - the Rationale for the Buddhas' views on the consumption of meat http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha069.htm Are you a Herbivore or a Carnivore http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha156.htm Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha189.htm --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi all, > > I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I > thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > > I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to > abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because > they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My > understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was > not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other > words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you > pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the > menu or buy it in the supermarket. > > My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who > is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left > open for wide interpretation." > > I pondered. > > My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the > Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then > asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there > were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My > friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > > So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that > something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for > wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the > Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14441 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:54am Subject: Re: Vegetarianism Dear Rob., I can add a little. This question comes up because most people have not studied the deeper nature of realities. They confuse the eating of meat with a long story of an animal being killed. But at the moments of eating there may be insight into reality and this can be whether the meal is vegetarian or meat.(there may also be greed or anger or countless other realities). Sometimes people will say eating meat is like accepting stolen goods because although we didn't kill we accept the result. But it is different because unlike stolen goods life can never be returned. Or people think that if more people became vegetarian there would be less killing. Again this is unlikely and doesn't take into acount the workings of kamma. The only way to reduce killing is if we ourselves deepen understanding- then we at least will not kill. The Buddha himself accepted meat provided it wasn't killed especially for him. And this is something we can practice. I was trekking in thailand once and some villagers were going to kill a chicken for our dinner but I said we would be happy with just vegetable. This cause a slight problem as the guide said the Headman felt slighted by my refusal but I stayed firm and the chicken lived -- at least until the next group arrived. Devadatta, in order to split the sangha asked the buddha to accept vegetarianism (among other rules)for the monks (he knew the Buddha would refuse),and he also knew that people equate being a vegan with spiritual development. So Devadatta and his followers were vegetarian . Of course if someone wants to stop eating meat for some reason or another fine - but I think it is not an especially spiritual thing to do. Robert - "robmoult" wrote: > Hi all, > > I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I > thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > > I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to > abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because > they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My > understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was > not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other > words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you > pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the > menu or buy it in the supermarket. > > My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who > is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left > open for wide interpretation." > > I pondered. > > My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the > Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then > asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there > were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My > friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > > So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that > something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for > wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the > Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14442 From: Purnomo . Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vegetarianism hi all, I am interested in topic of vegetarian. For me, we don't kill when we eat meat if the meat(animal) has dead. If we want to eat meat then we kill the animal, this is killing. But if we buy meat in the supermarket, the meat(animal) in condition died so we don't kill. So, in the supermarket or restaurant(especially sea food restaurant) if we want to buy or eat meat so we have to check the meat. was it die or not? If it's not, and we buy it so we acted killing. The Buddha explained clearly of the first precept. There are four factor of killing: 1. There are human 2. The human is living 3. we have got 'want' to kill it 4. The human was died because we killed it If one of four factor we don't get it so we wasn't killing. We have to remember, too, that the precept(sila) have got three basics: 1. wanting(cetana) 2. self-practice 3. abstain from... For example, I hit someone and the one was died. I haven't got 'wanting' to kill him. I am still 'wanting' to 'practice' myself to 'abstain' from killing. And I hit him because it's an accident. I can't abstain. So, there are 2 basics else which I keep. may these comentary used to you happy, purnomo >From: "robmoult" >Reply->>Subject: [dsg] Vegetarianism >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:11:41 -0000 > >Hi all, > >I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I >thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > >I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to >abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because >they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My >understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was >not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other >words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you >pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the >menu or buy it in the supermarket. > >My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who >is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left >open for wide interpretation." > >I pondered. > >My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the >Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then >asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there >were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My >friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > >So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that >something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for >wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the >Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > >Thanks, >Rob M :-) 14443 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 0:07pm Subject: Re: Vegetarianism 'Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat' by Ajahn Brahmavamso http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut034.htm Correcting an incorrect link in my last post. C. --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > The Precepts, as I understand, are training rules not Commandments, > but this is a question and comes up often on discussion lists, and in > interaction with others in my life as well ... I did become a > vegetarian for a while, and enjoyed it, until I realised how many > sentient beings are destroyed (literally in the millions) for each > acre of vegetables ploughed, fertilised and sprayed. And yet, > vegetarians keep buying vegetables and fruits, or even gardening > themselves. Interesting. Everything we do can cause harm. A few > links for your weekend reading. :) > > metta, > Christine > > > On Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm > > Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm > > Buddhism and Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha151.htm > > Buddhism and Vegetarianism - the Rationale for the Buddhas' views on > the consumption of meat > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha069.htm > > Are you a Herbivore or a Carnivore > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha156.htm > > Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha189.htm > 14444 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 0:26pm Subject: Re: Vegetarianism Hi Robert / Christine, I don't have a moral problem with being a carnivore (I enjoy a Big Mac as much as the next guy). I guess that my problem is the difference between Theravada and Mahayana. If the Mahayanists want to introduce Kuan Yin and focus on "faith" to get to the Pure Land, I'm okay with that. To me, that is a question of style, not substance. On the other hand, the five precepts are about as "core" as you can get. Should they be open to interpretation? I don't want to say that the Mahayanists are "wrong", but my friend's accountant mind says that there should be a "wrong" and a "right" on something as fundamental as the precepts. Precepts are rules of training, but the five precepts certainly have a moral foundation (at least the first four do). Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > 'Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat' by Ajahn > Brahmavamso > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut034.htm > > Correcting an incorrect link in my last post. > > C. > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > > > > The Precepts, as I understand, are training rules not Commandments, > > but this is a question and comes up often on discussion lists, and > in > > interaction with others in my life as well ... I did become a > > vegetarian for a while, and enjoyed it, until I realised how many > > sentient beings are destroyed (literally in the millions) for each > > acre of vegetables ploughed, fertilised and sprayed. And yet, > > vegetarians keep buying vegetables and fruits, or even gardening > > themselves. Interesting. Everything we do can cause harm. A few > > links for your weekend reading. :) > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > > > On Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm > > > > Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm > > > > Buddhism and Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha151.htm > > > > Buddhism and Vegetarianism - the Rationale for the Buddhas' views > on > > the consumption of meat > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha069.htm > > > > Are you a Herbivore or a Carnivore > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha156.htm > > > > Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha189.htm > > 14445 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vegetarianism Hi Purnomo, I think that your analysis agrees with the Theravada view (my view as well). One small correction to your message, however, on your use of the word "human". The first word of the precept in Pali is "Panatipata". In his book, "Going for Refuge Taking the Precepts", Bhikkhu Bodhi explains that "pana" means "that which breaths" and therefore includes men, animals and insects but not plants. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "Purnomo ." wrote: > hi all, > > I am interested in topic of vegetarian. For me, we don't kill when we eat > meat if the meat(animal) has dead. If we want to eat meat then we kill the > animal, this is killing. But if we buy meat in the supermarket, the > meat(animal) in condition died so we don't kill. So, in the supermarket or > restaurant(especially sea food restaurant) if we want to buy or eat meat so > we have to check the meat. was it die or not? If it's not, and we buy it so > we acted killing. > The Buddha explained clearly of the first precept. There are four factor of > killing: > 1. There are human > 2. The human is living > 3. we have got 'want' to kill it > 4. The human was died because we killed it > If one of four factor we don't get it so we wasn't killing. > We have to remember, too, that the precept(sila) have got three basics: > 1. wanting(cetana) > 2. self-practice > 3. abstain from... > For example, > I hit someone and the one was died. I haven't got 'wanting' to kill him. I > am still 'wanting' to 'practice' myself to 'abstain' from killing. And I hit > him because it's an accident. I can't abstain. So, there are 2 basics else > which I keep. > > may these comentary used to you > > > happy, > > purnomo > >From: "robmoult" > >Subject: [dsg] Vegetarianism > >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:11:41 -0000 > > > >Hi all, > > > >I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I > >thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > > > >I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to > >abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because > >they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My > >understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was > >not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other > >words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you > >pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the > >menu or buy it in the supermarket. > > > >My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who > >is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left > >open for wide interpretation." > > > >I pondered. > > > >My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the > >Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then > >asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there > >were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My > >friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > > > >So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that > >something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for > >wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the > >Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > > > >Thanks, > >Rob M :-) 14446 From: kkyaw88 Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism I do not understand all but so far as i know, Buddha solved this problem as follow: Devadad, one of the chief deciples of Buddha, proposed ten commentments. it is included that meat should not be eaten. Buddha said I have no objection. If u think u can do it, u do it. The question is why devadad cannot do it. Buddha will eat everything, whatever u eat and u offer. But if u offer shit, he will not deny if u eat shit. That is my understanding so far as i study. ----- Original Message ----- From: "robertkirkpatrick.rm" Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 7:54 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism > Dear Rob., > I can add a little. This question comes up > because most people have not studied the deeper nature > of realities. They confuse the eating of meat with a > long story of an animal being killed. But at the > moments of eating there may be insight into reality > and this can be whether the meal is vegetarian or > meat.(there may also be greed or anger or countless > other realities). > Sometimes people will say eating meat is like > accepting stolen goods because although we didn't kill > we accept the result. But it is different because > unlike stolen goods life can never be returned. > Or people think that if more people became vegetarian > there would be less killing. Again this is unlikely > and doesn't take into acount the workings of kamma. > The only way to reduce killing is if we ourselves > deepen understanding- then we at least will not kill. > > The Buddha himself accepted meat provided it wasn't > killed especially for him. And this is something we > can practice. I was trekking in thailand once and some > villagers were going to kill a chicken for our dinner > but I said we would be happy with just vegetable. This cause a > slight problem as the guide said the Headman felt slighted by my > refusal but I stayed firm and the chicken lived -- at least until > the next group arrived. > > Devadatta, in order to split the sangha asked the > buddha to accept vegetarianism (among other rules)for > the monks (he knew the Buddha would refuse),and he > also knew that people equate being a vegan with > spiritual development. So Devadatta and his followers > were vegetarian . Of course if someone > wants to stop eating meat for some reason or another fine - > but I think it is not an especially spiritual thing to > do. > Robert > - "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I > > thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > > > > I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to > > abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian > because > > they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. > My > > understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal > was > > not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other > > words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you > > pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the > > menu or buy it in the supermarket. > > > > My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, > who > > is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left > > open for wide interpretation." > > > > I pondered. > > > > My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the > > Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He > then > > asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there > > were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. > My > > friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > > > > So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that > > something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for > > wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the > > Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14447 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class/Metta (and khanti) Hi Rob M, I always find it easier to pervade metta to beings I respect, love, know well - teachers, relatives, dear friends as well as categories of others who I don't know at all - refugees, horses and cows in the paddock a kilometre away. Pervading metta formally is much easier for me than in daily life. I have difficulty with someone I regularly work with who is constantly unhelpful, thoughtless, or damaging towards others. Pervading metta even when they are absent is still 'coloured' by the 'emotional flavour' I associate with the thought of them. I have had some success with changing my reactions. When feeling exasperated by the same person frequently, as well as wishing them well, I try to put myself in their position and think how I would like to be treated if I was living their life, and then treat them that way. Most people want overt respect and kindness shown to them. Most people want to be liked, and to have people interested in them. Change is often slow but I try to be consistent and kind in my dealings with them, and one or two 'small miracles' have occurred. - probably in me...... What I find most difficult is wishing or feeling metta for those I don't like or who I'm frightened of, when I am face to face with them. If I have strong fear or aversion I often try to think of them before I see them, as separate 'parts', as skin, teeth, intestines until I can realise there is no 'one' to judge or be frightened of. Then I try to see that, like me, they are subject to birth aging and death, kamma and relentless re-birth. If we are both of us subject to this same suffering, somehow they don't seem so different to me, not so scary, not so unlikeable. Metta is then often possible during an interview. Actually, it is as much Metta as Precept that is responsible for my view of the necessity to treat possums, rats, cockroaches and spiders kindly. "Just as I want to be happy, all beings want to be happy." Thus looking at non-harming alternatives to worldly pest control. It also seems to me that with Metta occurring, Khanti would also arise; and Compassion (Karuna) and Equanimity (Upekkha) would be there as well. "The Metta Sutta consists of three parts, each of which focuses on a distinct aspect of metta. The first part (lines 3 to 10) covers that aspect which requires a thorough and systematic application of loving- kindness in one's day-to-day conduct." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel365.html#ch3 The Karaniya Metta Sutta - Hymm of Universal Love. Just my thoughts, metta, :) Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > 75 minutes does sound like a long time, but it goes quickly. I > prepare a lot and sometimes, I go over my time. The tea break is > after my class and before Bro. Teo's class (also 75 minutes). We > then have a 30 minute break before our hour of vipassana. It is a > great way to spend a Sunday morning (8:45 – 13:00). Depending on the > subject, there can be a lot of Q&A, though Asians are nowhere near > as forthcoming as Westerners are. > > I will make an effort to meet A. Sujin the next time I go to Bangkok. > > I really appreciate all the pointers to additional material that you > have given me. I would say that I feel very lucky to have stumbled > across the DSG, but I can't say this as "feeling lucky" is a form of > mana (conceit) :-) > > I would really appreciate input from the DSG on practical > application of Khanti and Metta. I have lots of theory, what I am > looking for are practical tips on making Khanti and Metta a bigger > part of our daily lives. > > A sangdikha dana is a tradition in our Vihara (perhaps it is > uniquely Sri Lankan) whereby we "sponsor" a vegetarian lunch for the > monks and any other devotees who want to partake. The teacher of > the "Buddhism for Beginners" class for 20 years recently passed away > and so his ex-students (most of the teachers and adult students in > the Vihara) are performing this sangdikha dana to transfer the merit > to him. We have collected more than US$600 to pay the caterers > (that's a lot of noodles) and many people are bringing additional > food as well. There are a lot of people at the Vihara, so the food > won't go to waste. > > The classes are in Malaysia, but I travel to China for work. Most of > China (except Tibet) is Mahayana, but there is some Theravada in > Yunnan province (Kunming). So far, I don't have any Dhamma-friends > in China. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob M, > > Excellent that you want the Abh study relevant for daily life. 75 > minutes is > > long, is there a tea break? It would help if the 75 minutes are > spent by way > > of question and answer related to the subject. I hope you can meet > A. Sujin > > one day, you are in the region. > > Now you have quite a list, and it may be good if you remind us all > of the > > next topic, one at a time. Because it is really useful and > interesting to > > see what different people write and what points they stress in > accordance > > with their accumulations. > > So, the next one is adosa: khanti and metta. Nothing is really > easy I find, > > especially when it comes to the practice. You may like the Roots > of Good and > > Evil, Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 251-253. Also under useful posts > you may find > > the subjects of metta and patience. Or A. Sujin's book which I > translated: > > Metta, Loving kindness in Buddhism, which is on line: Zolag. She > gives > > guidance on the development of metta and points out the > impediments. I shall > > select some of her points, but I do hope others in this forum will > help > > also, especially handing out examples from daily life. That is > what you > > want, you have plenty of books already. > > You could also try my "Perfections leading to Enlightenment", on > Abh. Org. > > web. It could give you ideas about metta, upekkha, etc. > > It is difficult to treat a subject in isolation, everything is > connected > > with everything. When you speak about metta, TMt is also hard at > work. When > > you speak about the abstinences you have to speak about metta, > which is very > > necessary for abstention from evil. It is all most intricate. > > What is sangdikha dana? Is the class in China? You have to travel > a lot. > > Best wishes, > > Nina. > > 14448 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Hi Frank, --- frank kuan wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > Among the excerpts you listed, I did not see my > favorite one. The one about the 2 parents and their > only beloved child crossing the desert in a famine. > I'll refrain from mentioning details, as I know some > of us on dsg are kind of squeamish. But that simile is > awesome in putting into perspective what role eating > should constitute in our lives. Yes, I think I hesitated too and left it out of my Vism ref (I think only).. As it is of significance to you, I'd appreciate a brief summary and yr comments as to why you find it awesome and not 'squeamish'....you can always put a warning at the top;-)Thanks in advance. ***** I'm in a Bondi internet caf and just printing out messages to read later. (....freeeeezing water, not much surf for Jon, but calm, clear water and winter sun for me as well as great yoga classes and healthy food with old friends...hmmm - more lobha;-)) Sarah (Sydney) ======= 14449 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class/Metta (and khanti) Hi Christine, I like your input. I am going to collect a number of people's perspectives and summarize them for the class. I remember the following exchange at a Dhamma talk on Metta: Layperson: There is a person at work who really annoys me. I have been radiating metta to her for some time, but her behaviour hasn't changed. What should I do next? Monk: First, recognize that the problem is in you, not in them. Focus on your reaction, not their behaviour. Your reaction creates kamma for you, just as their behaviour creats kamma for them. Secondly, do you really believe that sitting in your room thinking about somebody else is going to change them? Do you believe that there is some sort of psychic lightning that jumps from your mind to theirs? Your metta meditation should motivate YOU to ACTION. Go to that person that you do not like and do something nice for them... something really nice. Have your actions motivated by metta. This will change their behaviour and create good kamma for you. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > I always find it easier to pervade metta to beings I respect, love, > know well - teachers, relatives, dear friends as well as categories > of others who I don't know at all - refugees, horses and cows in > the paddock a kilometre away. Pervading metta formally is much > easier for me than in daily life. I have difficulty with someone I > regularly work with who is constantly unhelpful, thoughtless, or > damaging towards others. Pervading metta even when they are absent is > still 'coloured' by the 'emotional flavour' I associate with the > thought of them. I have had some success with changing my reactions. > When feeling exasperated by the same person frequently, as well as > wishing them well, I try to put myself in their position and think > how I would like to be treated if I was living their life, and then > treat them that way. Most people want overt respect and kindness > shown to them. Most people want to be liked, and to have people > interested in them. Change is often slow but I try to be consistent > and kind in my dealings with them, and one or two 'small miracles' > have occurred. - probably in me...... What I find most difficult is > wishing or feeling metta for those I don't like or who I'm frightened > of, when I am face to face with them. If I have strong fear or > aversion I often try to think of them before I see them, as > separate 'parts', as skin, teeth, intestines until I can realise > there is no 'one' to judge or be frightened of. Then I try to see > that, like me, they are subject to birth aging and death, kamma and > relentless re-birth. If we are both of us subject to this same > suffering, somehow they don't seem so different to me, not so scary, > not so unlikeable. Metta is then often possible during an > interview. Actually, it is as much Metta as Precept that is > responsible for my view of the necessity to treat possums, rats, > cockroaches and spiders kindly. "Just as I want to be happy, all > beings want to be happy." Thus looking at non-harming alternatives to > worldly pest control. It also seems to me that with Metta > occurring, Khanti would also arise; and Compassion (Karuna) and > Equanimity (Upekkha) would be there as well. > > "The Metta Sutta consists of three parts, each of which focuses on a > distinct aspect of metta. The first part (lines 3 to 10) covers that > aspect which requires a thorough and systematic application of loving- > kindness in one's day-to-day conduct." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel365.html#ch3 The > Karaniya Metta Sutta - Hymm of Universal Love. > Just my thoughts, > metta, :) > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > > > 75 minutes does sound like a long time, but it goes quickly. I > > prepare a lot and sometimes, I go over my time. The tea break is > > after my class and before Bro. Teo's class (also 75 minutes). We > > then have a 30 minute break before our hour of vipassana. It is a > > great way to spend a Sunday morning (8:45 – 13:00). Depending > on > the > > subject, there can be a lot of Q&A, though Asians are nowhere near > > as forthcoming as Westerners are. > > > > I will make an effort to meet A. Sujin the next time I go to > Bangkok. > > > > I really appreciate all the pointers to additional material that > you > > have given me. I would say that I feel very lucky to have stumbled > > across the DSG, but I can't say this as "feeling lucky" is a form > of > > mana (conceit) :-) > > > > I would really appreciate input from the DSG on practical > > application of Khanti and Metta. I have lots of theory, what I am > > looking for are practical tips on making Khanti and Metta a bigger > > part of our daily lives. > > > > A sangdikha dana is a tradition in our Vihara (perhaps it is > > uniquely Sri Lankan) whereby we "sponsor" a vegetarian lunch for > the > > monks and any other devotees who want to partake. The teacher of > > the "Buddhism for Beginners" class for 20 years recently passed > away > > and so his ex-students (most of the teachers and adult students in > > the Vihara) are performing this sangdikha dana to transfer the > merit > > to him. We have collected more than US$600 to pay the caterers > > (that's a lot of noodles) and many people are bringing additional > > food as well. There are a lot of people at the Vihara, so the food > > won't go to waste. > > > > The classes are in Malaysia, but I travel to China for work. Most > of > > China (except Tibet) is Mahayana, but there is some Theravada in > > Yunnan province (Kunming). So far, I don't have any Dhamma- friends > > in China. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: 14450 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob Mnan HI Larry, > -----Original Message----- > > Dear Kom and Howard, I was trying to get you > guys to debate one another, > > not debate me. The issue is how do you > understand the difference > > between nama and rupa (this differentiation > being a key 'first step' on > > the path of purification, I think?). > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > It seems easy to me to distinguish mental > (nama) from physical (rupa). > At least I don't believe I confuse them. Desires, > aversions, feelings, > thoughts, memories, and discernment (vi~n~nana) > itself are experienced quite > differently from sights, sounds, tastes, > hardness/softness, pressures, aches, > textures etc. ----------------------------------------------- Kom: Why would you want a debate on something that cannot be proven to you (phenomenonlism vs ???), and in my opinion, isn't all that helpful. I think you may want to study the texts yourself to see what the Buddha said. I do like Howard's description of the differences between Nama and Rupa above. > As I understand it, phenomenalism is > simply the position that all > that is known or knowable is what is experienced, > and radical phenomenalism > amounts to the mix of phenomenalism with > pragmatism which says that whatever > is in principle unknowable is, for all intents > and purposes, nonexistent. Kom: My understanding of the buddha's teachings is slightly different: whatever is in principle unknowable is unimportant (not necessarily non-existent), as it cannot be the foundation of sati. > Experience, at least the dualistic > experience of worldlings, consists > of what Bhikkhu ~Nanananda, in his commentary on > the Kalakarama Sutta, refers > to as the vi~n~nana-namarupa "vortex", that > meeting point of citta and > arammana where there is merely the seen, the > heard, the tasted, the smelled, > the touched, and the cognized (i.e., namarupa) > co-occurring with the act of > discernment (i.e., vi~n~nana), two sheaves > mutually supporting each other. > -------------------------------------------------- Kom: Based on the teachings of the Abhidhamma (patthana: the 24 major conditions), I would have to say that Howard's position (if I understand correctly) is not consistent with the teachings. The teachings assert that although Nama is conditioned by the rupa, the rupa is not necessarily conditioned by the nama. For example, for an outside visible object (not connected to the body), the visible object conditions the seeing citta to arise, but the seeing citta doesn't condition the visible object in anyway. There are some occurances where nama and rupa (not necessarily *cognized* nama) are mutual dependent, but it isn't always. Again, you may want to see for your self what the Buddha has taught, instead of relying on either of our positions. > Howard: > I don't see why. The fact that citta and > arammana (and the object may > be either nama or rupa) are interdependent, > doesn't make either of them > fictitious. It merely makes them two opposing > aspects of one experiential > event. Think of a box: there is no inside without > an outside, and no outside > without an inside, but that doen't make either of > these fictitious (to use a > conventional analogy). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard, I appreciate the careful clarity of what you write, as always. kom 14451 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood about the parents and their only child crossing the desert in a famine: --- Sarah wrote: > As it is of significance to you, I'd appreciate a > brief summary and yr > comments as to why you find it awesome and not > 'squeamish'....you can > always put a warning at the top;-)Thanks in advance. > ***** The simile (which one can read in the visudhimagga) really puts into perspective the role of eating and what priority it should have in our precious and fragile life. I think it's pretty clear without any commentary, if people can put aside their cultural biases and attachments to a limited defintion of morality. -fk 14452 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/19/02 9:06:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robertk writes: > Sound arises because it is conditioned to arise - whether it is > experienced or not. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What *is* unheard sound? To me, all sounds are heard by some sentient being or other (not necessarily me - I'm not a solipsist). The physicist will say that sound is a wave which is the propagation of compaction and rarefaction of molecules. But that is all pa~n~nati, isn't it? What is the paramattha dhamma called a sound, and where is it when not heard? ---------------------------------------------------- For example, while I am writing this my son just > > came in and asked a question. You can't hear these sounds - in this > case called vacivinnati(verbal intimation) but I can assure you > there was sound and that indeed I experience sounds everyday. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't doubt it. ---------------------------------------------------- Even > > though you don't experience those sounds doesn't make them less real. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. when you hear sounds those are actual sounds that you hear. But when no sentient being hears a sound, where and what do you mean by a 'sound'? ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14453 From: Immortal Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism I rarely comment on this group, but on the topic of vegetarianism I know a decent amount. There are many tales of the buddha being welcomed into feasts and eating meat. It comes down to the ever-changing reality. Each reality, each belief is different from person to person. If, a person believes that killing is wrong, and eating meat is wrong than they are right. But, if you kill to survive and eat meat to survive. That too is right. Its not about a single rule that will govern Buddhism and a "static" reality. It comes down to the "flowing reality". If you keep moving, if you are ever-changing with your reality than what you do is correct if you do it with right mindfulness. I myself eat meat, because there are health concerns about the breakdown of protiens and such with my active lifestyle. When I eat, I only *eat*. I focus one hundred percent on eating, being thankful for every single piece of food I have. Whether it be the flesh of an animal or the flesh of a plant. It is all sacred and something had to suffer and die for me to eat no matter what I eat. Thats, my reality. Take what you will from it, and think about your own reality. Thanks... KT. -- Returning to the Shadows. ===== The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not descend, and while everything changes. Nothing is truly lost. 14454 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:15pm Subject: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Dear All, "This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of pain and grief, for reaching the Noble Path, for the realization of Nibbana, namely, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness." Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha Nikaya 22) The Four Foundations of Mindfulness are Contemplation of the Body; Contemplation of Feelings; Contemplation of Mind; and Contemplation of Mind Objects. Nyanaponika Thera says that it is essential that the Contemplation of Feelings should also be remembered and applied in daily life whenever feelings are prone to turn into unwholesome emotions. To do this, he says, feelings should be taken up for mindful observation when they occur. There should be mindful awareness of the feelings when they arise, and one whould clearly distinguish them as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral, respectively. Then he says mindfulness should be maintained throughout the short duration of that specific feeling, down to its cessation. 'Short duration' ..... This is where I have a difficulty. Perhaps it is in being mindful and being able to separate the Feelings from the Emotions that I am not succeeding. Perhaps it is because mindfulness is weak ..... I'm definitely not mindful of a short duration of a specific feeling, or it's cessation. The one state (emotion), often one I cannot 'name', seems to last for long periods of time.... There doesn't seem much difference between the person called Christine of four years ago (pre-Dhamma days) and now. Still subject to tides of emotion, still don't realise it's happening until minutes, sometimes hours, of being swept along wherever the tide takes me. Nothing much shows on the outside - I'm usually seen by others as a calm and controlled person - such a misjudgment ....that's just the outward appearance ... earthquakes of emotion and disorderly thoughts on the inside. How to separate Feelings from Emotions? Do all the Foundations need to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they all automatically intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become accomplished in..... metta, Christine 14455 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:16pm Subject: vegetarianism Instead of focusing so much on what the precepts say, and whether we're technically abiding by it to the letter, it may be more productive to focus on why you eat and why you eat the things you eat. Is it for nutrition? maximum flavor? Clearly the spirit of the precepts is to maximize compassion and minimize harm to other sentient beings and the environment. Is your diet in accordance to that spirit? Everyone has different circumstances, different nutritional needs, different socio-economic reasons for eating what they eat. For practical reasons, there is no perfect metta-ahimsas-diet that fits all. But I find it disturbing that so many Buddhists are complacent and content that their diet TECHNICALLY accords with the Buddha's advice on what should be eaten. Reality check time. It's pretty damn easy to not violate those precepts. It's not so easy to really examine what we eat, why we eat, and what we can do to minimize harm. And let's not forget, the renunciates for whom those precepts were made are completely reliant on what the laypeople provide to them. Laypeople have much greater freedom in deciding their own diet. Laypeople perhaps underestimate their own capacity to widen their circle of compassion and make a strong effort to follow THE SPIRIT of the precept. Not eating more than necessary, examining what we eat and experimenting with different ways of eating more compassionately is something we can all practice. -fk 14456 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:32pm Subject: 6 Pairs I am preparing my class notes for the Six Pairs of Kusala Cetasikas. My first question is, "why do have pairs of these cetasikas (i.e. separate cetasikas to apply for cittas and cetasikas) when all the other cetasikas come as "one of a kind"? In other words, why do we need to differentiate pliancy of cittas as distinct from pliancy of cetasikas when we don't differentiate any other cetasikas? My class notes will start with some routine technical definition stuff (characterisitics, function, manifestation, proximate cause) plus some bullet points summarized from Nina's book "Cetasikas". I will then have some points about the interaction between the pairs (information extracted from "Abhidhamma Studies"). I want to follow this up with the more practical aspect ("in daily life") using Nina's suggestion of noting the difference between kusala and akusala cittas. I am 80% sure of the following (I really added a lot of my own interpretations - perhaps too much). I am hoping that the DSG can: - Correct any misinterpretations - Add new points using the same format to further clarify the differences in mental states between Mr. A and Mr. B. ================================================================== Six Pairs of Kusala Cetasikas Mr. A and Mr. B went to a Dhamma talk. After the Dhamma talk, Mr. A said, "I enjoyed listening to the Dhamma talk". Mr. B said, "I listened to the Dhamma talk with joy." Let us consider the difference in the mental states between Mr. A (akusala, with lobha) and Mr. B (kusala). Citta-passaddhi and Kaya-passaddhi (Tranquility of Citta and Cetasikas) Mr. A remembers the amusing stories from the Dhamma talk. His pleasant feeling is mixed with excitement and agitation (uddhacca). Mr. B has a tranquil happiness. He is suffused with a warm feeling from being in the presence of something truly beautiful. Citta-lahuta and Kaya-lahuta (Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy of Citta and Cetasikas) For Mr. A, the Dhamma talk is finished; "the show is over". There are conditions for apathy, sloth and torpor. Mr. B leaves the Dhamma talk inspired to take positive action. His mind is ready to quickly seize an opportunity for kusala actions. Citta-muduta and Kaya-muduta (Elasticity / Pliancy of Citta and Cetasikas) Mr. A focuses on his enjoyment of the experience. His focus in not on himself, not on the Dhamma. There is a strong sense of mana (conceit). Mr. B focuses on the application of the Dhamma. His mind is naturally spreading the Dhamma lessons learned to many aspects of his life. Citta-kammannata and Kaya-kammannata (Adaptability / Wieldiness / Workableness of Citta and Cetasikas) Though Mr. A enjoyed the Dhamma talk overall, his "review" would say that there were more "fun parts" (lobha) than "boring parts" (dosa). His mind classifies portions of the talk as either good or bad. He rigidly classifies portions of the talk into one of two categories thereby making his mind less workable. Mr. B leaves the talk with an even balance of mudutŒ (pliancy); not too little so as to resist changing his mind, not too much so as to have the impressions of the Dhamma overwritten by the next sensation. Citta-pagunnata and Kaya-pagunnata (Proficiency of Citta and Cetasikas) Mr. A is now feeling dukkha. He misses the fun experience of the Dhamma talk. His mental state is "sickly". Mr. B has performed a kusala action by listening to the Dhamma talk and he is aware of this fact. This awareness gives his mental state confidence and strength. Cittujjukata and Kayujjukata (Rectitude / Uprightness of Citta and Cetasikas) Mr. A remembers who saw him attend the Dhamma talk and is pleased that he will be considered by others to be religiously minded. There is a superficial hypocrisy in his mental state. Mr. B is feeling a spontaneous love of the Dhamma. His intention / volition (cetana) is pure. As it is cetana that determines the moral quality of any action, the kammic effect of attending the Dhamma talk for Mr. B will be significantly greater than the kammic effect for Mr. A. ================================================================== I am looking forward to your comments! Thanks, Rob M :-) 14457 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there --- Howard wrote: > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What *is* unheard sound? To me, all sounds are heard by some sentient > being or other (not necessarily me - I'm not a solipsist). The physicist will > say that sound is a wave which is the propagation of compaction and > rarefaction of molecules. But that is all pa~n~nati, isn't it? What is the > paramattha dhamma called a sound, and where is it when not heard? > ---------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Not necessary to think about sound waves. I think a careful study of the Abhidhamma texts helps to calrify this matter. Sound can be produced by citta i.e.cittasamutthana rupa- (such as vacivinnati -speaking) or it can be produced by another cause- utu (temperature). Sound is not originated by kamma or ahara (nutrition) although other types of matter are. Sotavinnana (hearing consciousness ) can only arise if sound contacts the earbase - but the converse is not true: For example, sound may arise anywhere such as a rock falling down a cliff (it is utu-samutthana -rupa) ; it arises whether it is experienced or not. ___________________ > For example, while I am writing this my son just > > > came in and asked a question. You can't hear these sounds - in this > > case called vacivinnati(verbal intimation) but I can assure you > > there was sound and that indeed I experience sounds everyday. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't doubt it. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Even > > > though you don't experience those sounds doesn't make them less real. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course. when you hear sounds those are actual sounds that you hear. > But when no sentient being hears a sound, where and what do you mean by a > 'sound'? > ========================== A sound is a sound, it is not conditioned by the citta that experiences it - but the converse is true: The citta that experiences it is conditioned by the sound. > Metta Robert 14458 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:34pm Subject: Re: 6 Pairs I like it very much Rob. I think everyone will get the picture - Perhaps you were just a tad hard on poor Mr. A and a bit soft on mr. B. I think most of us, most of the time alternate bettwen the two . Dhamma talks lasts a long time - during it we could have been mr. A and then mr. B in succession several times; not to mention afterwards. It can be hard to know whether the warm feelings are with lobha or kusala. But really very nicely explained, my comments are quibbles. Robert "robmoult" wrote: > > I am 80% sure of the following (I really added a lot of my own > interpretations - perhaps too much). I am hoping that the DSG can: > - Correct any misinterpretations > - Add new points using the same format to further clarify the > differences in mental states between Mr. A and Mr. B. > > ================================================================== > > Six Pairs of Kusala Cetasikas > > Mr. A and Mr. B went to a Dhamma talk. After the Dhamma talk, Mr. A > said, "I enjoyed listening to the Dhamma talk". Mr. B said, "I > listened to the Dhamma talk with joy." Let us consider the > difference in the mental states between Mr. A (akusala, with lobha) > and Mr. B (kusala). > > Citta-passaddhi and Kaya-passaddhi (Tranquility of Citta and > Cetasikas) > Mr. A remembers the amusing stories from the Dhamma talk. His > pleasant feeling is mixed with excitement and agitation (uddhacca). > > Mr. B has a tranquil happiness. He is suffused with a warm feeling > from being in the presence of something truly beautiful. > > > Citta-lahuta and Kaya-lahuta (Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy of > Citta and Cetasikas) > For Mr. A, the Dhamma talk is finished; "the show is over". There > are conditions for apathy, sloth and torpor. > > Mr. B leaves the Dhamma talk inspired to take positive action. His > mind is ready to quickly seize an opportunity for kusala actions. > > > Citta-muduta and Kaya-muduta (Elasticity / Pliancy of Citta and > Cetasikas) > Mr. A focuses on his enjoyment of the experience. His focus in not > on himself, not on the Dhamma. There is a strong sense of mana > (conceit). > > Mr. B focuses on the application of the Dhamma. His mind is > naturally spreading the Dhamma lessons learned to many aspects of > his life. > > > Citta-kammannata and Kaya-kammannata (Adaptability / Wieldiness / > Workableness of Citta and Cetasikas) > Though Mr. A enjoyed the Dhamma talk overall, his "review" would say > that there were more "fun parts" (lobha) than "boring parts" (dosa). > His mind classifies portions of the talk as either good or bad. He > rigidly classifies portions of the talk into one of two categories > thereby making his mind less workable. > > Mr. B leaves the talk with an even balance of mudutŒ (pliancy); not > too little so as to resist changing his mind, not too much so as to > have the impressions of the Dhamma overwritten by the next > sensation. > > > Citta-pagunnata and Kaya-pagunnata (Proficiency of Citta and > Cetasikas) > Mr. A is now feeling dukkha. He misses the fun experience of the > Dhamma talk. His mental state is "sickly". > > Mr. B has performed a kusala action by listening to the Dhamma talk > and he is aware of this fact. This awareness gives his mental state > confidence and strength. > > > Cittujjukata and Kayujjukata (Rectitude / Uprightness of Citta and > Cetasikas) > Mr. A remembers who saw him attend the Dhamma talk and is pleased > that he will be considered by others to be religiously minded. There > is a superficial hypocrisy in his mental state. > > Mr. B is feeling a spontaneous love of the Dhamma. His intention / > volition (cetana) is pure. As it is cetana that determines the moral > quality of any action, the kammic effect of attending the Dhamma > talk for Mr. B will be significantly greater than the kammic effect > for Mr. A. > > ================================================================== > > I am looking forward to your comments! > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14459 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:49pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi Christine, [snip] Christine: How to separate Feelings from Emotions? Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by feelings and emotions. Christine: Do all the Foundations need to be practiced? Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? Christine: Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to the exclusion of all others? Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of all others? Christine: Or do they all automatically intermingle? Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job easier. Wouldn't it? Christine: Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become accomplished in..... Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? > > metta, > Christine Regards, Victor 14460 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:59pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi Christine, I have a slightly different understanding of "feelings". In the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, we see that there are only three feelings named, "pleasant, painful or neutral". They also ask us to differentiate between When the Abhidhamma catalogues the cittas, one of the ways of splitting out the lobha-mula cittas and the beautiful cittas is according to the associated feeling (pleasant, painful or neutral). You can use whichever foundation suits you, but my advice is that you keep on watching your breath during meditation. Trying to catch the feeling associated with each citta would be next to impossible (millions of cittas each microsecond) unless you have already developed wise attention (yoniso manasikara) as a mental habit. The Buddha used mindfulness of breath under the Bodhi tree. We also need to be careful of the word, "mindfulness". You have used it in a non-technical sense in your posting, whereas in the Suttas and in Abhidhamma, "mindfulness" (sati) has a very specific meaning. The best description of Sati that I have found is in Chapter 13 of the book, "Mindfulness in Plain English". Here is a link, http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm When you first become aware of something there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing and before you identify it. That is a stage of Sati. Sati is a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Terms used to characterize Sati include: "mirror-thought", "non-judgmental observation", "impartial watchfulness", "non-conceptual awareness", "present-time awareness", "non-egoistic alertness", "goalless awareness", "awareness of change" and "participatory observation" There are three fundamental activities of Sati: - Sati reminds us what we are supposed to be doing - Sati sees things as they really are - Sati sees the deep nature of all phenomena - Mindfulness is non-forgetful of kusala and keeps us from akusala Those who do not know the Dhamma can perform kusala deeds, but our knowledge of the Dhamma helps us to be mindful of what is kusala and what is akusala (sharing merit is kusala, killing insects is akusala) People who lack sati must chase after Dhamma, but Dhamma chases after those who have sati Sati is different from what is meant by "mindfulness" in conventional language. One may think that he is mindful when he directs his attention to what he is doing or to what is going on around him. That is not the characteristic of sati in the development of insight. Sati in vipassana is mindful of a nama or a rupa which appears, without there being a thought of self who makes an effort or who is directing the attention to an object. In brief, you can't be "mindful" of emotions because emotions are concepts and sati works at the pre-conceptual level. You must see emotions as what they are; things that you add on to cover up reality. Remember that the emotions are not reality, you have distorted reality with these emotions because of your past accumulations. Seeing them for what they are takes their power away. Maybe not immediately (deeply ingrained), but give it time. Christine, I am sorry if my message has generated more confusion. I sense a frustration in your message regarding a lack of progress in your meditation. Let me share with you a personal story. Seven months ago, I returned to Jakarta. My wife (Indonesian-Chinese) and I decided to go back to the small Thai Vihara where we were married twelve years previously. As we sat on the floor, an old monk came in and sat in front of us. After a brief introduction, he looked me in the eye and asked, "How is your meditation?" I squirmed. Could he read my mind? He said, "You will not find anything that you are looking for. Think of meditation as your duty. Your responsibility is to sit. Good sitting, bad sitting, it doesn't matter. Your duty is to sit. When conditions arise, the results will appear. You are not responsible for the results, you are only responsible for sitting." Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > "This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the > overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of pain > and grief, for reaching the Noble Path, for the realization of > Nibbana, namely, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness." > Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha Nikaya 22) > The Four Foundations of Mindfulness are Contemplation of the Body; > Contemplation of Feelings; Contemplation of Mind; and Contemplation > of Mind Objects. > Nyanaponika Thera says that it is essential that > the Contemplation of Feelings should also be remembered and applied > in daily life whenever feelings are prone to turn into unwholesome > emotions. To do this, he says, feelings should be taken up for > mindful observation when they occur. There should be mindful > awareness of the feelings when they arise, and one whould clearly > distinguish them as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral, > respectively. Then he says mindfulness should be maintained > throughout the short duration of that specific feeling, down to its > cessation. > 'Short duration' ..... This is where I have a difficulty. Perhaps it > is in being mindful and being able to separate the Feelings from the > Emotions that I am not succeeding. Perhaps it is because mindfulness > is weak ..... I'm definitely not mindful of a short duration of a > specific feeling, or it's cessation. The one state (emotion), often > one I cannot 'name', seems to last for long periods of time.... There > doesn't seem much difference between the person called Christine of > four years ago (pre-Dhamma days) and now. Still subject to tides of > emotion, still don't realise it's happening until minutes, sometimes > hours, of being swept along wherever the tide takes me. Nothing much > shows on the outside - I'm usually seen by others as a calm and > controlled person - such a misjudgment ....that's just the outward > appearance ... earthquakes of emotion and disorderly thoughts on the > inside. > How to separate Feelings from Emotions? Do all the Foundations need > to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be > chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they all automatically > intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become > accomplished in..... > > metta, > Christine 14461 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/20/02 9:28:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robertk writes: > --- Howard wrote: > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > What *is* unheard sound? To me, all sounds are heard by > some sentient > > being or other (not necessarily me - I'm not a solipsist). The > physicist will > > say that sound is a wave which is the propagation of compaction > and > > rarefaction of molecules. But that is all pa~n~nati, isn't it? > What is the > > paramattha dhamma called a sound, and where is it when not heard? > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Howard, > Not necessary to think about sound waves. > I think a careful study of the Abhidhamma texts helps to calrify > this matter. Sound can be produced by citta i.e.cittasamutthana rupa- > (such as vacivinnati -speaking) or it can be produced by another > cause- utu (temperature). Sound is not originated by kamma or ahara > (nutrition) although other types of matter are. > Sotavinnana (hearing consciousness ) can only arise if sound > contacts the earbase - but the converse is not true: > For example, sound may arise anywhere such as a rock falling down a > cliff (it is utu-samutthana -rupa) ; it arises whether it is > experienced or not. > ___________________ > > > > For example, while I am writing this my son just > > > > came in and asked a question. You can't hear these sounds - in > this > > > case called vacivinnati(verbal intimation) but I can assure you > > > there was sound and that indeed I experience sounds everyday. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I don't doubt it. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Even > > > > though you don't experience those sounds doesn't make them less > real. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Of course. when you hear sounds those are actual sounds > that you hear. > > But when no sentient being hears a sound, where and what do you > mean by a > > 'sound'? > > ========================== > > A sound is a sound, it is not conditioned by the citta that > experiences it - but the converse is true: The citta that > experiences it is conditioned by the sound. > > > > > Metta > Robert > ============================= It seems to me that you are saying that there is some existent thing, out in "the physical world" (which is something not directly known but inferred to include things which sense bases, also in that "world", contact) - something separate from and independent of discernment by a sentient being, and which we call a 'sound'. There is also that "content of consciousness", that arammana, which we also call a 'sound', *resulting* from contact of the ear base with that "thing in the world" we call a sound. There seems to be an "external sound", contact with which produces the "internal sound" that is heard, which is the arammana to our auditory citta. This is the standard dualist view, I think, of how things are. The phenomenalist view, however, is that it is only what I call the "internal sounds" that are ever directly known or knowable, and the radical phenomenalist view adds that what is in principle unknowable, is pragmatically nonexistent. The worldling phenomenalist and the worldling "realist" have the same experiences, but interpret them differently, with the phenomenalist more readily applying Occam's razor, being less willing to posit the existence of unknowable things. What is the rupa of sound in Abhidhamma? Is it an unknown external something, existing independently of citta, or is it the "internal" sound that is heard? (Or are they somehow the same?) BTW, you write that the sound conditions the citta, but not vice-versa, because sound can exist without being experienced. In that regard, how do you understand the mutual conditionality between vi~n~nana and namarupa in some formulations of patticasamupada? I take namarupa as consisting of the body of mental and physical phenomena that can serve as objects for consciousness, i.e., to be "the all". Do you, instead, take 'namarupa' to refer to the mind-enlivened body, the physical body of a living being, and interpret paticcasamupada only in the 3-lifetime sense? (I do recognize that as a correct interpretation, just not the only correct one.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14462 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi, Victor (and Christine) - In a message dated 7/20/02 9:49:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > Hi Christine, > > [snip] > Christine: How to separate Feelings from Emotions? > > Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by > feelings and emotions. > > Christine: Do all the Foundations need to be practiced? > > Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? > > Christine: Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to > the exclusion of all others? > > Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of > all others? > > Christine: Or do they all automatically intermingle? > > > Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job > easier. Wouldn't it? > > > Christine: Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become > accomplished in..... > > Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? > > > > > metta, > > Christine > > Regards, > Victor > ============================ I would suppose that one argument in favor of "making do" with just one foundation of mindfulness is that once one sees directly and clearly the impemanence, unsatisfactoriness, and impersonality and insubstantiality of even one category of dhammas, the door to the deathless may be opened. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] ignorance Hi Frank, thank you for the reminder that ignorance is a problem all the time. Countless moments of neutral feeling, and we do not know it, ignorance again. Nina. Craving > and aversion are more immediate "causes" that are > further down the chain, and because their > disadvantages are more easily seen they are the focus > of more discussion, but ignorance (of 4NT) is the root > cause. Ignorance is not just a problem when craving > and hatred arise. Ignorance (for the nonarhat)is a > problem all the time, even when neutral feeling is > predominant. 14464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 0:47am Subject: sense-door and mind-door Dear Larry, I want to add something to what I wrote. I quote again: I add: When you experience visible object through the mind-door it is as if you are still seeing through eyesense. That is what I understood from A. Sujin's explanations. For us, everything is vague, that is natural. We cannot distinguish the sense-door process from the mind-door process, but panna that has become keener and sharper is able to do this, by means of awareness over and over again of the nama and rupa that appears one at a time through one of the six doors. It is not a matter of being in time or being fast enough, it is a matter of panna that has been developed to the first stage of vipassana ~naa.na. At that moment there is no doubt about what the mind-door process is and the difference between the characteristics of nama and rupa is clearly distinguished, and this occurs in a mind-door process. A. Sujin explained: just now for us it is as if there is no mind-door process, the mind-door is hidden by the sense-doors. There is seeing , then hearing, and it seems that there is no mind-door process in between. At the moment of vipassana ~naa.na nama and rupa appear through the mind-door. I find this subject very difficult and I am always afraid to say too much. But people read about stages of insight in the Visuddhimagga and then they wonder what these are. Best wishes from Nina. 14465 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sense-door and mind-door Hi, Nina - Just one comment (a question, rather) inserted in the middle of your post. In a message dated 7/20/02 12:49:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Dear Larry, I want to add something to what I wrote. I quote again: the mind-door process follows upon a sense-door process, say, eye-door > process, the visible object has only just fallen away when it is > experienced > by cittas of the mind-door process. Rupa does not last longer than 17 > moments of cittas, thus, it has fallen away when the succeeding mind-door > process begins. Someone asked A. Sujin whether visible object experienced > through the mind-door is the same as visible object experienced through the > eye-door, and she said, exactly the same. Just because of the speed of the > cittas that succeed one another.> > > I add: When you experience visible object through the mind-door it is as if > you are still seeing through eyesense. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Would that "seeing" of the visible object through the mind-door amount to what might be called the experiencing of a "fresh memory" (a faithful replica) of the just fallen-away image? ----------------------------------------------------- That is what I understood from A.> > Sujin's explanations. For us, everything is vague, that is natural. We > cannot distinguish the sense-door process from the mind-door process, but > panna that has become keener and sharper is able to do this, by means of > awareness over and over again of the nama and rupa that appears one at a > time through one of the six doors. It is not a matter of being in time or > being fast enough, it is a matter of panna that has been developed to the > first stage of vipassana ~naa.na. At that moment there is no doubt about > what the mind-door process is and the difference between the > characteristics > of nama and rupa is clearly distinguished, and this occurs in a mind-door > process. > A. Sujin explained: just now for us it is as if there is no mind-door > process, the mind-door is hidden by the sense-doors. There is seeing , then > hearing, and it seems that there is no mind-door process in between. At the > moment of vipassana ~naa.na nama and rupa appear through the mind-door. I > find this subject very difficult and I am always afraid to say too much. > But > people read about stages of insight in the Visuddhimagga and then they > wonder what these are. > Best wishes from Nina. > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14466 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > How to separate Feelings from Emotions? The way I see it, the 3 types of feeling are extremely brief moments, whereas emotions are a complex combination of vedana, perceptions, craving, views. For the emotion to sustain itself, and appear to be a real solid entity, in my case at least it only happens when I also have solidified misguided views reinforced (with unwise attention) over time with its own momentum. However, I discovered that if I start being mindful of the erroneous perceptions in the emotion, the subtle and not so subtle cravings to experience a certain way and for the world to accomodate my wishes, mindfully chipping away at my misguided views, then the emotion starts losing its solidity, and eventually the emotion is no longer a solid singular entity, but just a flux of unstable conditioned moments. Even while in the midst of experiencing an intense emotion which feels so real, one can definitely discern changes in magnitude, moments of absence (of that emotion), and eventual dissipation. > Do all the > Foundations need > to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like > the breath, be > chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they > all automatically > intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a > big job to become > accomplished in..... > There's no hard and fast rules. I think it's a good idea to have some level of competency in all four foundations, but the best answer for you will require your own experiments with all 4. Keep plugging away Chris, enlightenment isn't all fun and games. We all have times when perceived lack of progress invades our mindfulness. :-) -fk 14467 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:19am Subject: phenominalism Dear Kom, Howard, Robert and Nina, To my mind this issue revolves around the reality status (validity?) of concepts. This is a difficult question and, for me, unresolved. Be that as it may, and taking the usual view of 'concept', I don't believe there is such a category as 'pure experience' or 'pure knowledge' in the sense of experience of paramattha dhammas without concepts of any kind. In the Satipatthana Sutta and the jhana formula there is clearly the suggestion of a diminution and eventual cessation (in jhana) of discursive thinking but it seems to me as concept ceases, paramattha dhammas also cease. Even if we say "under the microscope" there can be experience without concept, is this really knowledge or panna? Looking at the Kalakarama Sutta, we could ask what disappears when dis-illusionment arises? I would say what disappears is the magic, not concepts. Magic could be regarded as lobha (a paramattha dhamma) or avijja (mis-understanding). Can there be panna without concept? One area that we haven't discussed is the status of the subject. Does subject = self, no matter how short lived? I think phenominalism could be defined as an attempt to describe experience after the realization of anatta. How do you see this? Larry 14468 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] phenominalism Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/20/02 2:19:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear Kom, Howard, Robert and Nina, > > To my mind this issue revolves around the reality status (validity?) of > concepts. This is a difficult question and, for me, unresolved. Be that > as it may, and taking the usual view of 'concept', I don't believe there > is such a category as 'pure experience' or 'pure knowledge' in the sense > of experience of paramattha dhammas without concepts of any kind. In the > Satipatthana Sutta and the jhana formula there is clearly the suggestion > of a diminution and eventual cessation (in jhana) of discursive thinking > but it seems to me as concept ceases, paramattha dhammas also cease. > Even if we say "under the microscope" there can be experience without > concept, is this really knowledge or panna? > > Looking at the Kalakarama Sutta, we could ask what disappears when > dis-illusionment arises? I would say what disappears is the magic, not > concepts. Magic could be regarded as lobha (a paramattha dhamma) or > avijja (mis-understanding). Can there be panna without concept? > > One area that we haven't discussed is the status of the subject. Does > subject = self, no matter how short lived? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say "no". The subject in any subject-object experience is the knowing aspect, whereas the object is the known aspect. Both are conditioned and empty of self, as is the entire experiential event. A 'self' is an unchanging essence, a core, is unconditioned and has an intrinsic identity independent of all else. ----------------------------------------------- > > I think phenominalism could be defined as an attempt to describe > experience after the realization of anatta. How do you see this? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think this would be to make too much of phenomenalism. ------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14469 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] sense-door and mind-door Nina, thanks for the additional comments and your careful considertions. The more I read on this, the better sense I get of anatta due to looseness. That's sort of a funny thing to say, but it kind of makes sense. It counters a simplistic mechanical way of understanding things. best wishes, Larry 14470 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] phenominalism Hi Howard, thanks for your in-put, sorry for misspelling phenomenalism. Larry 14471 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 1:05am Subject: Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything Hi, Robert, Nina, Sarah, Jon and all - The following sutta seems to me to have relevance to our discussions of phenomenalism (and also points out the importance of concentration to practice). I am inserting comments/questions enclosed in braces: ********************************************************************** It may be, O monks, that wandering ascetics of another persuasion might ask you: "In what are things rooted? How do they come to actual existence? Where do they arise? Where do they converge? What is the foemost in all things? What is their master? What is the highest of all things? What is the essence of all things? Where do all things merge? Where do they end? If you are thus questioned, monks, you should reply as follows: "All things are rooted in desire. {Do our desires create birdsounds outside the house, or do they create birdsounds as the content of auditory experience?}. They come to actual existence through attention.{Through *attention*!! Does our attention create external hardness, external sounds, external colors, or does our attention create the content of our experience? Yet it is said here that attention is what brings all things to *actual existence*!}, originate from contact {So, without contact, there is no sound, no color, etc. It is said here that all things originate from contact, that is, they don't exist on their own!}, and converge in feeling. The foremost of all things is concentration {So, concentration is not only important, but is "the foremost of all things."}. All things are mastered by mindfulness. Their peak is wisdom, there essence liberation. All things merge in the deathless, and Nibbana is their culmination." ****************************************************** Does not this sutta, plus the Kalakarama Sutta, plus the Bahiya Sutta give some plausibility to the idea that phenomenalism and the Dhamma are, at least, congenial to each other? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14472 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 6:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] phenominalism Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > Dear Kom, Howard, Robert and Nina, > > To my mind this issue revolves around the reality > status (validity?) of > concepts. This is a difficult question and, for > me, unresolved. Be that > as it may, and taking the usual view of > 'concept', I don't believe there > is such a category as 'pure experience' or 'pure > knowledge' in the sense > of experience of paramattha dhammas without > concepts of any kind. In the normal everyday experience, we experience both paramatha dhamma and concepts. For all the "significant" event, an event that we "consciously" cognize (without the panna), it is certain that both paramatha and concepts (different moments) are experienced in that event. For example, have you ever seen something that you already know, but you don't recognize what it is? Like, when we are looking for something, it's right in front of us, we see it, but we still don't know what it is. The paramatha experience has already occured, and so is some conceptual experiences (like shape), but the concept hasn't been taken to the point where you would recognize that it is what you are looking for. Given how blindlingly fast the mind is, I wouldn't be surprised that in everyday life, some of the time, the mind only experiences the paramatha characteristics that aren't taken into concepts. > In the > Satipatthana Sutta and the jhana formula there is > clearly the suggestion > of a diminution and eventual cessation (in jhana) > of discursive thinking > but it seems to me as concept ceases, paramattha > dhammas also cease. I think you may want to be careful of interpreting that example. The discursive thinking is characterized as Vitakka and Vicara, which are cetasikas, realities. At the 2nd Jhana and above, vitakka and vicara are suppressed even if the mind (the jhana) continues rising and falling away. The rupa jhana cittas have concepts as the object, even if there is no vitakka and vicara. > Even if we say "under the microscope" there can > be experience without > concept, is this really knowledge or panna? It is knowledge or panna only when there is panna arising to cognize it. The mind constantly cognizes paramatha dhamma (although as not what it really is, without panna) regardless of whether or not panna arises. You knew the differences betwen hard and soft even before you listen to the Buddha's dhamma, didn't you? You knew the differences because the characteristics (not the same way that they would appear to satipatthana) appeared to you. > > Looking at the Kalakarama Sutta, we could ask > what disappears when > dis-illusionment arises? I would say what > disappears is the magic, not > concepts. Magic could be regarded as lobha (a > paramattha dhamma) or > avijja (mis-understanding). Can there be panna > without concept? One aspect that I think some people are mistaken of vipassana development is that, when there is sati, as in satipatthana, concepts cease to appear [which is incorrect]. As I understand it, sati and panna arise in the stream of cittas, in the way they haven't before hearing the dhamma, to cognize the characteristics of the dhamma. It doesn't stop the conceptualization of the dhamma. If it does, then an arahant, including the buddha, who has perfect sati, would not recognize people, animals, trees, houses, etc. > > One area that we haven't discussed is the status > of the subject. Does > subject = self, no matter how short lived? > When there is a true and full realization of the distinction of nama and rupa, we will have no doubt that nama (the cognition) is also dhamma and non-self, the same as rupa (the non-cognition), although they have characteristics that are very different from each other. kom 14473 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 9:34am Subject: Re: Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything -- Dear Howard, I think your takes on phenomenalism are relevant and close to what the Abhidhamma says: close but not perfect. I think the Buddha praised all types of wisdom - whether direct or inferential. And even understanding the concepts of Dhamma has to be with wisdom of, at first a conceptual nature. Even Bahiya had to understand by means of thinking what the buddha said . And we just do not live in a world without concepts , we cannot. Some concepts are right, some are wrong; but either way I think what is needed is not to try to become one who experiences only direct realities, and has no conceptual understanding - but to know clearly the difference between concept and reality. BTW a friend in thailand who has been studying Abhidhamma for over 20 years also greatly stresses direct knowing in a way reminicent of phenomenalism - so I have had similar discussions in the past. Best wishes Robert - Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert, Nina, Sarah, Jon and all - > > The following sutta seems to me to have relevance to our discussions > of phenomenalism (and also points out the importance of concentration to > practice). I am inserting comments/questions enclosed in braces: > ********************************************************************* * > It may be, O monks, that wandering ascetics of another persuasion > might ask you: "In what are things rooted? How do they come to actual > existence? Where do they arise? Where do they converge? What is the foemost > in all things? What is their master? What is the highest of all things? What > is the essence of > ****************************************************** > Does not this sutta, plus the Kalakarama Sutta, plus the Bahiya Sutta > give some plausibility to the idea that phenomenalism and the Dhamma are, at > least, congenial to each other? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 14474 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything Hi, Robert - I completely agree with the importance of concepts. We could not function without them. We couldn't learn the Dhamma without them. They serve as mental shorthand for extraordinarily complex packages of interrelated dhammas. I don't mean in any way to denigrate conceptual knowledge and understanding. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/20/02 9:35:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robertk writes: > > Dear Howard, > I think your takes on phenomenalism are relevant and close to what > the Abhidhamma says: close but not perfect. I think the Buddha > praised all types of wisdom - whether direct or inferential. And > even understanding the concepts of Dhamma has to be with wisdom of, > at first a conceptual nature. Even Bahiya had to understand by means > of thinking what the buddha said . And we just do not live in a > world without concepts , we cannot. Some concepts are right, some > are wrong; but either way I think what is needed is not to try to > become one who experiences only direct realities, and has no > conceptual understanding - but to know clearly the difference > between concept and reality. > BTW a friend in thailand who has been studying Abhidhamma for over > 20 years also greatly stresses direct knowing in a way reminicent of > phenomenalism - so I have had similar discussions in the past. > Best wishes > Robert > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14475 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism Here is my two cents worth: Why let this argument distract us from the more important need to practice the Dhamma? I was a strict vegan, then lapsed to vegetarianism. I got very ill overseas. My immune system was compromised. I had to take meat to get a better and goodly amount of amino acids. I used to be rigid about vegetarianism. This was wrong. I still prefer to be vegetarian, but I am ever mindful and grateful for those sentient beings that have been used to provide me sustenance for this body to be able to sustain its energy for Dhamma and service to humanity. Instead of beating ourselves up about the issue --- just be mindful --- be grateful that you have enough and a wide variety to eat for bodily support. I think back to my time in the Kingdom of Nepal where I saw mothers and children wondering if they would even have a meal that day. The Right View does not demand vegetarianism. No doubt, it is a healthier choice --- in some cases. Right View calls us to deeper awareness of the problems here in Samsara. What Right View will insist upon is that we apply the Dhamma practically to our daily lives --- with mindfulness and skillfulness --- and the practice is ever working on those very two things. Well, that is probably ninety-nine cents worth! In the Dynamic Buddhadhamma, VBD 14476 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 6:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism -- Dear Venerable, That was a few hundred dollars worth, IMHO - Thanks for a nicely balanced perspective. Metta Robert - "Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Here is my two cents worth: > > Why let this argument distract us from the more important need to practice > the Dhamma? > > I was a strict vegan, then lapsed to vegetarianism. > > I got very ill overseas. My immune system was compromised. > > I had to take meat to get a better and goodly amount of amino acids. > > I used to be rigid about vegetarianism. This was wrong. > > I still prefer to be vegetarian, but I am ever mindful and grateful for > those sentient beings that have been used to provide me sustenance for this > body to be able to sustain its energy for Dhamma and service to humanity. > > Instead of beating ourselves up about the issue --- just be mindful --- be > grateful that you have enough and a wide variety to eat for bodily support. > I think back to my time in the Kingdom of Nepal where I saw mothers and > children wondering if they would even have a meal that day. > > The Right View does not demand vegetarianism. No doubt, it is a healthier > choice --- in some cases. Right View calls us to deeper awareness of the > problems here in Samsara. What Right View will insist upon is that we apply > the Dhamma practically to our daily lives --- with mindfulness and > skillfulness --- and the practice is ever working on those very two things. > > Well, that is probably ninety-nine cents worth! > > In the Dynamic Buddhadhamma, > > VBD 14477 From: Ruth Klein Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 8:15pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything This Sutta reminds me of my college Greek philosophy class where I was trying to grasp the idea that a table was not a table... But is this line of questioning really skillful? Does it matter if something exists and our bodies don't contact it? Ruth > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard [mailto:Howard] > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 5:06 PM > Subject: [dsg] Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything > > > Hi, Robert, Nina, Sarah, Jon and all - > > The following sutta seems to me to have relevance to our > discussions > of phenomenalism (and also points out the importance of concentration to > practice). I am inserting comments/questions enclosed in braces: > ********************************************************************** > It may be, O monks, that wandering ascetics of another persuasion > might ask you: "In what are things rooted? How do they come to actual > existence? Where do they arise? Where do they converge? What is > the foemost > in all things? What is their master? What is the highest of all > things? What > is the essence of all things? Where do all things merge? Where do > they end? > If you are thus questioned, monks, you should reply as > follows: "All > things are rooted in desire. {Do our desires create birdsounds > outside the > house, or do they create birdsounds as the content of auditory > experience?}. > They come to actual existence through attention.{Through > *attention*!! Does > our attention create external hardness, external sounds, external > colors, or > does our attention create the content of our experience? Yet it > is said here > that attention is what brings all things to *actual existence*!}, > originate > from contact {So, without contact, there is no sound, no color, > etc. It is > said here that all things originate from contact, that is, they > don't exist > on their own!}, and converge in feeling. The foremost of all things is > concentration {So, concentration is not only important, but is > "the foremost > of all things."}. All things are mastered by mindfulness. Their peak is > wisdom, there essence liberation. All things merge in the deathless, and > Nibbana is their culmination." > ****************************************************** > Does not this sutta, plus the Kalakarama Sutta, plus the > Bahiya Sutta > give some plausibility to the idea that phenomenalism and the > Dhamma are, at > least, congenial to each other? > > With metta, > Howard 14478 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything Hi, Ruth - In a message dated 7/21/02 8:19:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ruth writes: > > This Sutta reminds me of my college Greek philosophy class where I was > trying to grasp the idea that a table was not a table... But is this line > of questioning really skillful? Does it matter if something exists and our > bodies don't contact it? > > Ruth > ============================= I would say that how things are, whether they exist on their own or merely seem to, is relevant to the matter of what, if anything, we grasp at. But, in any case, this is only one piece of the puzzle, and, though I find this matter important and useful, it need be of no concern to anyone without particular interest in it. (Incidentally, Bhikkhu ~Nanananda states that there is some speculation that the Kalakarama Sutta, an untypically philosophical teaching, was taught to the Greeks at one point!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14479 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 9:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi, Howard, Christine, and all, I would like to bring the following passage to attention: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Regards, Victor --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Victor (and Christine) - > > In a message dated 7/20/02 9:49:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Victor writes: > > > > > > Hi Christine, > > > > [snip] > > Christine: How to separate Feelings from Emotions? > > > > Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by > > feelings and emotions. > > > > Christine: Do all the Foundations need to be practiced? > > > > Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? > > > > Christine: Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to > > the exclusion of all others? > > > > Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of > > all others? > > > > Christine: Or do they all automatically intermingle? > > > > > > Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job > > easier. Wouldn't it? > > > > > > Christine: Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become > > accomplished in..... > > > > Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? > > > > > > > > metta, > > > Christine > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > ============================ > I would suppose that one argument in favor of "making do" with just > one foundation of mindfulness is that once one sees directly and clearly the > impemanence, unsatisfactoriness, and impersonality and insubstantiality of > even one category of dhammas, the door to the deathless may be opened. > > With metta, > Howard 14480 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi, Victor and all - In a message dated 7/21/02 9:14:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > Hi, Howard, Christine, and all, > > I would like to bring the following passage to attention: > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > Regards, > Victor > > =========================== Yes, indeed. The Buddha gave anapanasati as a complete meditative discipline and as an implementation of the four foundations of mindfuness, and, purportedly, it was the Buddha's own primary practice. It happens to be my main form of meditation, as it is, I suppose, for most Buddhists. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:20pm Subject: Equanimity. Dear Rob M, The other post was too long. I could add something on Tatramajjhattata, which can be developed as a perfection, the perfection of equanimity. I quote now part of my "Perfections": Nina. 14482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 6 Pairs Dear Rob M, Rob K, christine and all, I am joining Rob K in his appreciation of your examples. You have so much patience and good will to help, Rob M. I like the additional remarks of Rob K, a good reminder: op 20-07-2002 15:34 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op robertk: Rob K: I like it very much Rob. I think everyone will get the picture - > > Perhaps you were just a tad hard on poor Mr. A and a bit soft on mr. > B. I think most of us, most of the time alternate bettwen the two . > Dhamma talks lasts a long time - during it we could have been mr. A > and then mr. B in succession several times; not to mention > afterwards. It can be hard to know whether the warm feelings are > with lobha or kusala. N:It is as if there are two different personalities in ourselves, and depending on conditions one emerges or the other emerges. When dosa is so strong and I lose patience, I may even shout. How harsh, rigid, unwieldy is the citta. The next moment conditions may have changed, and there is an opportunity for helping, doing something for someone else. The citta is gentle, tender, workable, pliant, sincere to perform kusala, to forgive, to give, to help, to express appreciation of someone else's kusala. You cannot do that when the citta is harsh and rigid. The Buddha taught the details about citta, cetasika and rupa so that we realize: there is no I who can control, there are only phenomena arising because of different conditions. Defilements cannot be eradicated when we still cling to the idea of self. I do not know why there are six pairs, and no pairs for the other good qualities. But the main thing is understanding how many conditions have to cooperate so that kusala citta can arise. The examples will help people, but we should not see them in isolation. They are all together for each kind of kusala. But sati cannot be lacking, without sati we are forgetful of kusala. Right understanding of nama and rupa as they appear through six doors is the most important condition to further develop all kinds of kusala. I like Chistine's post on metta and will come back to that later. Christine, think of A. and B. in one person: there are confusing emotions and sensations, at another moment you are so helpful and full of goodwill and beneficience. Know it all depends on different conditions, we can learn from these different moments. We can learn from unpleasant events and our bad reactions to these. So, we should have no regret, not worry about lack of progress, but just continue on on the Way the Buddha taught. Ups and downs. Soon you will meet Sarah and Jon, and you will see, to be with good friends in Dhamma is helpful for confidence, saddha. I liked the monk's remark Rob M mentioned, about not just radiating metta, but taking action. A wise monk. Now more examples of the six pairs. > "robmoult" wrote: >>> I am 80% sure of the following (I really added a lot of my own >> interpretations - perhaps too much). I am hoping that the DSG can: >> - Correct any misinterpretations >> - Add new points using the same format to further clarify the >> differences in mental states between Mr. A and Mr. B. >> >> Six Pairs of Kusala Cetasikas >> >> Mr. A and Mr. B went to a Dhamma talk. After the Dhamma talk, Mr. > A >> said, "I enjoyed listening to the Dhamma talk". Mr. B said, "I >> listened to the Dhamma talk with joy." Let us consider the >> difference in the mental states between Mr. A (akusala, with > lobha) >> and Mr. B (kusala). >RRob M: Citta-passaddhi and Kaya-passaddhi (Tranquility of Citta and >> Cetasikas) >> Mr. A remembers the amusing stories from the Dhamma talk. His >> pleasant feeling is mixed with excitement and agitation (uddhacca). >> >> Mr. B has a tranquil happiness. He is suffused with a warm feeling >> from being in the presence of something truly beautiful. N: shall we add: Mr. B is patient to listen to the Dhamma so that he will have more understanding of his life. He is not agitated and there is a degree of calm with the kusala citta. He has no anxieties or scruples: do I have enough progress in the Dhamma, because he knows it all depends on conditions. That is why he listened to explanations of cetasikas. He does not forget the goal of the teachings. >> R: Citta-lahuta and Kaya-lahuta (Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy of >> Citta and Cetasikas) >> For Mr. A, the Dhamma talk is finished; "the show is over". There >> are conditions for apathy, sloth and torpor. >> >> Mr. B leaves the Dhamma talk inspired to take positive action. His >> mind is ready to quickly seize an opportunity for kusala actions. N:Yes, quick reactions in the kusala way. If we want to give and we delay this, the other person may have died before we have the chance. A. Sujin always reminds us: do not delay kusala. No hesitation, do it at once, seize the opportunity. That is also the role of sati: to take the oportunity of kusala, not let it go by. When traveling in India with my friends from Thailand I admired their quick reactions to help so much. They were so efficient to quickly find the right means to help: a cushion, a medicine, something to eat at the right time. I am often slow in my reactions, often kusala is in my case sasankharika, induced or prompted. My husband, Lodewijk, is a good prompter. R: Citta-muduta and Kaya-muduta (Elasticity / Pliancy of Citta and >> Cetasikas) >> Mr. A focuses on his enjoyment of the experience. His focus in not >> on himself, not on the Dhamma. There is a strong sense of mana >> (conceit). >> >> Mr. B focuses on the application of the Dhamma. His mind is >> naturally spreading the Dhamma lessons learned to many aspects of >> his life. N: Pliancy and resilience of mind: to adapt yourself quickly in the wholesome way when there are contrary events, such as a traffic jam. it conditions more patience. Openmindedness to what is right, no mental rigidity and conceit. >> R: Citta-kammannata and Kaya-kammannata (Adaptability / Wieldiness / >> Workableness of Citta and Cetasikas) >> Though Mr. A enjoyed the Dhamma talk overall, his "review" would > say >> that there were more "fun parts" (lobha) than "boring parts" > (dosa). >> His mind classifies portions of the talk as either good or bad. He >> rigidly classifies portions of the talk into one of two categories >> thereby making his mind less workable. >> >> Mr. B leaves the talk with an even balance of muduta (pliancy); > not >> too little so as to resist changing his mind, not too much so as > to >> have the impressions of the Dhamma overwritten by the next >> sensation. N: They condition patience when listening to the Dhamma and to develop understanding. There is no clinging to immediate result and over enthusiasm. That "too much" is not balanced, will lead to disappointment and depression. >> R: Citta-pagunnata and Kaya-pagunnata (Proficiency of Citta and >> Cetasikas) >> Mr. A is now feeling dukkha. He misses the fun experience of the >> Dhamma talk. His mental state is "sickly". >> >> Mr. B has performed a kusala action by listening to the Dhamma > talk >> and he is aware of this fact. This awareness gives his mental > state >> confidence and strength. N: It helps you to find the right solution when there are difficult circumstances. Or to know in what way one can help in the most efficient way. A. Sujin is such an example for me. She finds solutions in a way that everybody is satisfied. Christine is very efficient in helping, and how quickly she reacts. People need some info and there she comes with all the links that are needed. There are many sobhana cetasikas assisting her. >> R: Cittujjukata and Kayujjukata (Rectitude / Uprightness of Citta and >> Cetasikas) >> Mr. A remembers who saw him attend the Dhamma talk and is pleased >> that he will be considered by others to be religiously minded. > There >> is a superficial hypocrisy in his mental state. >> >> Mr. B is feeling a spontaneous love of the Dhamma. His intention / >> volition (cetana) is pure. As it is cetana that determines the > moral >> quality of any action, the kammic effect of attending the Dhamma >> talk for Mr. B will be significantly greater than the kammic > effect >> for Mr. A. N: uprightness: sincerity as to kusala. You will not just say you will help someone, but also do it. You put your good intentions into actions. you do not expect any reward for yourself, such as praise, admiration, or even appreciation of what you are doing. How difficult. I may do something for someone else, go out of my way, and he may not appreciate it when there are no conditions for appreciation. It is important to understand that not only we ourselves but also others are just: citta, cetasika and rupa, arising because of the appropriate conditions. We should be openminded and correct whatever is wrong in our practice. Without knowing it we may still select the wholesome dhammas as objects of understanding, and close our eyes for the akusala dhammas we would rather not have. With appreciation, and wishing you success, Nina. 14483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:20pm Subject: Perfections, Ch 3, no. 3 Perfections, Ch 3, no. 3. We read in the Commentary: The ascetic Akitti said, ³Sakka, lord of the devas, you have offered me a boon. People who have children, a wife, possessions and all kinds of pleasant things, are attached to them, even though their attachment does not cause any harm. However, I wish to be free from all degrees of attachment to such things. That is the boon I would like to have.² This shows that he had a precise understanding of his cittas: he did not wish to have attachment even if it would not cause any harm. Someone who has no firm determination in the development of the perfections may believe that attachment makes life comfortable and pleasant, and that, so long as attachment does not cause any harm, there is no danger in it. However, Akitti wanted to be free from all attachment. This is the steadfastness in kusala that is of the degree of a perfection. We read: Thereupon Sakka said, ³ You have well spoken, Kassapa. What else do you wish for?² Do we wish for a boon that will be a condition for kusala to become more steadfast, just as in the case of Akitti? What he just asked was not sufficient yet. The following boon that the ascetic Akitti wished for shows again the meaning of kusala to the degree of a perfection. We read that Akitti said: ³Sakka, the lord of all devas has offered me a boon. Lands, goods and gold, cows, horses, slaves and relatives decay and pass away. May I not have such unsatisfactoriness.² The loss of possessions is akusala vipåka, the result of akusala kamma that has been performed by oneself. There will not be such loss if one does not commit akusala kamma. We read that Akitti asked as a boon: ³May there be not any akusala kamma that could cause such loss.² Sakka said, ³Kassapa, what else do you wish?² The ascetic Akitti said, ³Please give me this boon: may I not see or hear a fool nor be in his company, and may I not like to converse with him.² Sakka asked, ³What is the reason Kassapa, that you do not like fools nor wish to see them?² If we wish to develop the perfection of renunciation we should consider this passage. If we associate with fools we cannot develop renunciation. The perfections are interrelated and from the beginning we should consider all of them. We read: The ascetic Akitti said, ³Fools advise to do what is improper, they are likely to take upon themselves undue tasks; it is difficult to advise them to perform good deeds. When someone speaks to them in a wholesome way, hoping that they will become righteous, they retort with anger. Fools do not know the rules of right conduct (vinaya). It is beneficial not to see fools.² 14484 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 982 Hi, Christine, Am behind, as usual, so please forgive the late reply to your query. The PTS dictionary (p 719) defines the supanna as: "Fairwing", a kind of fairy bird, a mythical creature (cp. garula((garuda??)), imagined as winged, considered as foe to the nagas. The rest are textual references. However, there is no clue why this would be considered a desirable birth. Sorry I can't help you further. metta, Betty _______________________ > Hi All, > > I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 1023 '30 > Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas. > Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And why > would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu > desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the company > of these egg-born supannas? > Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali Text > Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon. > > metta, > Christine > > > > > --- > Dear Christine, > The are many types of being in this universe, most of which we > cannot see. I think suppanas are supposed to be very powerful > birdlike creatures that fight with nagas - who are snake like > creatures. It is not considered especially good kamma to be born as > one of these, but some people may wish to because of the supernormal > powers that these beings are said to have. > As the commentary notes that Buddha taught these suttas so that > those bhikkhus would give up their desire for this type of birth. > Robert > 14485 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism Hi Robert, You are very welcome. It is a matter of really practicing Dhamma and whether or not one can "experience" just how pragmatic the Dhamma is in our lives... ...or how complicated we make it. Balance is very important --- and it requires practice, practice. practice. Metta cittena, Dhammapiyo Bhante ----- Original Message ----- From: "robertkirkpatrick.rm" Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 6:07 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism > -- > Dear Venerable, > That was a few hundred dollars worth, IMHO - > Thanks for a nicely balanced perspective. > Metta > Robert > - "Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > wrote: > > Here is my two cents worth: > > > > Why let this argument distract us from the more important need to > practice > > the Dhamma? > > > > I was a strict vegan, then lapsed to vegetarianism. > > > > I got very ill overseas. My immune system was compromised. > > > > I had to take meat to get a better and goodly amount of amino > acids. > > > > I used to be rigid about vegetarianism. This was wrong. > > > > I still prefer to be vegetarian, but I am ever mindful and > grateful for > > those sentient beings that have been used to provide me sustenance > for this > > body to be able to sustain its energy for Dhamma and service to > humanity. > > > > Instead of beating ourselves up about the issue --- just be > mindful --- be > > grateful that you have enough and a wide variety to eat for bodily > support. > > I think back to my time in the Kingdom of Nepal where I saw > mothers and > > children wondering if they would even have a meal that day. > > > > The Right View does not demand vegetarianism. No doubt, it is a > healthier > > choice --- in some cases. Right View calls us to deeper awareness > of the > > problems here in Samsara. What Right View will insist upon is that > we apply > > the Dhamma practically to our daily lives --- with mindfulness and > > skillfulness --- and the practice is ever working on those very > two things. > > > > Well, that is probably ninety-nine cents worth! > > > > In the Dynamic Buddhadhamma, > > > > VBD 14486 From: Purnomo . Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vegetarianism Hi Rob, you are true. I am mistake use 'human'. And I have got a joke. If you eat meat then you are Buddha's follower If you don't(vegetarian) then you are Devadatta's follower ha..ha..ha.. happy, purnomo 14487 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 4:50pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Victor Hi Victor, Reply interspersed below. "How to separate Feelings from Emotions?" Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by feelings and emotions. >>>>>Christine: What my understanding is of what the Buddha means by feelings and emotions, I have gained from readings such as "Contemplation of Feelings" by Nyanaponika Thera. Excerpt" One may now appreciate the significance of the Buddha's terse saying that 'all things converge on feelings.' The central position of feeling in human life also makes it clear why the Buddha included feelings as a separate category among the five constituent aggregates of personality (pancakkhandha) and as a separate mode of contemplation in the four foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana)." and "In precise pinpointing of mental states undertaken in Buddhist psychology, feeling (vedana) is understood as the bare sensation experienced as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral (indifferent). It is distinguished from emotion, a more complex phenomenon which arises from the basic feeling, but adds to it various overlays of an evaluative, volitional and cognitive character." "Do all the Foundations need to be practiced?" Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? >>>>Christine: Not sure. DO all of them need to be developed? "Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to the exclusion of all others?" Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of all others? >>>>Christine: Not sure. Most Western Buddhists sit and watch the breath, a small part of one Foundation, and this seems to be considered sufficient. "Or do they automatically intermingle?" Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job easier. Wouldn't it? >>>>Christine: Not sure ... and I asked first. :) Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become accomplished in .... Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? >>>>Christine: Not sure. I'm trying to find out the totality of what needs to be done. metta, Christine 14488 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 4:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Victor Thanks for this Victor, Does this mean mindfulness of in-and-out breathing is the ONLY way when developed and pursued, that brings the four frames of reference to their culmination? metta, Christine --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi, Howard, Christine, and all, > > I would like to bring the following passage to attention: > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > Regards, > Victor > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Victor (and Christine) - > > > > In a message dated 7/20/02 9:49:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Victor writes: 14489 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Frank Hi Frank, and All, Thanks for sharing this, it, and your support and encouragement, are much appreciated. What you describe is exactly how things 'feel' to me and, I suspect, for the same reasons. And so ... it would stand to reason that your 'solution' of being mindful of erroneous perceptions in the emotion, and of cravings, would be a practice which could benefit me in bringing recognition of the process, a lessening of clinging and 'a deeper satisfaction then is possible when the mind is overrun by tempestuous emotions'. (Nyanaponika) Some verses below for you Frank - I think the last three lines are identical to the ones in the verses you quoted a while ago. Just as in the sky above winds of various kinds are blowing: Coming from the east or west, blowing from the north or south, Some carry dust and others not, cold are some and others hot, Some are fierce and others mild -- their blowing is so different. So also in this body here, feelings of different kind arise: The pleasant feelings and the painful and the neutral ones. But if a monk is ardent and does not neglect To practice mindfulness and comprehension clear, The nature of all feelings will he understand, And having penetrated them, he will be taint-free in this very life. Mature in knowledge, firm in Dhamma's ways, When once his life-span ends, his body breaks, All measure and concept he has transcended. http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sam/sn36-12.htm Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.12 'Akasa Sutta' In the Sky (1) --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Chris, > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > > How to separate Feelings from Emotions? > The way I see it, the 3 types of feeling are > extremely brief moments, whereas emotions are a > complex combination of vedana, perceptions, craving, > views. For the emotion to sustain itself, and appear > to be a real solid entity, in my case at least it only > happens when I also have solidified misguided views > reinforced (with unwise attention) over time with its > own momentum. However, I discovered that if I start > being mindful of the erroneous perceptions in the > emotion, the subtle and not so subtle cravings to > experience a certain way and for the world to > accomodate my wishes, mindfully chipping away at my > misguided views, then the emotion starts losing its > solidity, and eventually the emotion is no longer a > solid singular entity, but just a flux of unstable > conditioned moments. Even while in the midst of > experiencing an intense emotion which feels so real, > one can definitely discern changes in magnitude, > moments of absence (of that emotion), and eventual > dissipation. > > > Do all the > > Foundations need > > to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like > > the breath, be > > chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they > > all automatically > > intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a > > big job to become > > accomplished in..... > > > > There's no hard and fast rules. I think it's a good > idea to have some level of competency in all four > foundations, but the best answer for you will require > your own experiments with all 4. Keep plugging away > Chris, enlightenment isn't all fun and games. We all > have times when perceived lack of progress invades our > mindfulness. :-) > > -fk 14490 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 5:01pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Rob M Hi Rob M, and All, Thanks Rob - I learn a lot from your posts. Your discussion of Sati has been really helpful - I'm sure it is often mentioned on list and in the Useful Posts - but it is not until something becomes a difficulty that relevant information is 'seen afresh', and you have written about it in a way that I can understand. I think I suffer from 'self taught internet-itis' whereby my understanding of Buddha's Teaching has been stored in a thousand unrelated compartments, and there has been little integration of the separate topics in the separate compartments. I should have 'known' about vedana, mental formations, and craving from my readings on Paticcasamupadda. There is so much to learn in these early years, so much effort going into intellectual understanding, that there is a danger that my gathering of information will blot out direct practice. You make a good point about not confusing the non-technical sense of the word 'mindfulness', and to only use it in connection with its specific meaning. Habitual everyday usage can interfere with clear understanding of the buddhist meaning. Your message didn't generate confusion, rather, it helped very much to clarify things. Rob, I actually don't currently do sitting meditation but your remarks and the remarks of the 'old monk' are pertinent to my practice anyway (awareness of realities as they appear at the different doorways in this moment), and, as you can tell, I am still a novice at this. metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I have a slightly different understanding of "feelings". > > In the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, we see that there are only three > feelings named, "pleasant, painful or neutral". They also ask us to > differentiate between > > When the Abhidhamma catalogues the cittas, one of the ways of > splitting out the lobha-mula cittas and the beautiful cittas is > according to the associated feeling (pleasant, painful or neutral). > > You can use whichever foundation suits you, but my advice is that > you keep on watching your breath during meditation. Trying to catch > the feeling associated with each citta would be next to impossible > (millions of cittas each microsecond) unless you have already > developed wise attention (yoniso manasikara) as a mental habit. The > Buddha used mindfulness of breath under the Bodhi tree. > > We also need to be careful of the word, "mindfulness". You have used > it in a non-technical sense in your posting, whereas in the Suttas > and in Abhidhamma, "mindfulness" (sati) has a very specific meaning. > The best description of Sati that I have found is in Chapter 13 of > the book, "Mindfulness in Plain English". Here is a link, > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm > > When you first become aware of something there is a fleeting instant > of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing and before > you identify it. That is a stage of Sati. Sati is a softly flowing > moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of > reality, not separate from it. Terms used to characterize Sati > include: "mirror-thought", "non-judgmental observation", "impartial > watchfulness", "non-conceptual awareness", "present-time > awareness", "non-egoistic alertness", "goalless > awareness", "awareness of change" and "participatory observation" > > There are three fundamental activities of Sati: > - Sati reminds us what we are supposed to be doing > - Sati sees things as they really are > - Sati sees the deep nature of all phenomena > - Mindfulness is non-forgetful of kusala and keeps us from akusala > > Those who do not know the Dhamma can perform kusala deeds, but our > knowledge of the Dhamma helps us to be mindful of what is kusala and > what is akusala (sharing merit is kusala, killing insects is akusala) > > People who lack sati must chase after Dhamma, but Dhamma chases > after those who have sati > > Sati is different from what is meant by "mindfulness" in > conventional language. One may think that he is mindful when he > directs his attention to what he is doing or to what is going on > around him. That is not the characteristic of sati in the > development of insight. Sati in vipassana is mindful of a nama or a > rupa which appears, without there being a thought of self who makes > an effort or who is directing the attention to an object. > > In brief, you can't be "mindful" of emotions because emotions are > concepts and sati works at the pre-conceptual level. You must see > emotions as what they are; things that you add on to cover up > reality. Remember that the emotions are not reality, you have > distorted reality with these emotions because of your past > accumulations. Seeing them for what they are takes their power away. > Maybe not immediately (deeply ingrained), but give it time. > > Christine, I am sorry if my message has generated more confusion. > > I sense a frustration in your message regarding a lack of progress > in your meditation. Let me share with you a personal story. Seven > months ago, I returned to Jakarta. My wife (Indonesian-Chinese) and > I decided to go back to the small Thai Vihara where we were married > twelve years previously. As we sat on the floor, an old monk came in > and sat in front of us. After a brief introduction, he looked me in > the eye and asked, "How is your meditation?" I squirmed. Could he > read my mind? He said, "You will not find anything that you are > looking for. Think of meditation as your duty. Your responsibility > is to sit. Good sitting, bad sitting, it doesn't matter. Your duty > is to sit. When conditions arise, the results will appear. You are > not responsible for the results, you are only responsible for > sitting." > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > "This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for > the > > overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of > pain > > and grief, for reaching the Noble Path, for the realization of > > Nibbana, namely, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness." > > Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha Nikaya 22) > > The Four Foundations of Mindfulness are Contemplation of the Body; > > Contemplation of Feelings; Contemplation of Mind; and > Contemplation > > of Mind Objects. > > Nyanaponika Thera says that it is essential that > > the Contemplation of Feelings should also be remembered and > applied > > in daily life whenever feelings are prone to turn into unwholesome > > emotions. To do this, he says, feelings should be taken up for > > mindful observation when they occur. There should be mindful > > awareness of the feelings when they arise, and one whould clearly > > distinguish them as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral, > > respectively. Then he says mindfulness should be maintained > > throughout the short duration of that specific feeling, down to > its > > cessation. > > 'Short duration' ..... This is where I have a difficulty. Perhaps > it > > is in being mindful and being able to separate the Feelings from > the > > Emotions that I am not succeeding. Perhaps it is because > mindfulness > > is weak ..... I'm definitely not mindful of a short duration of a > > specific feeling, or it's cessation. The one state (emotion), > often > > one I cannot 'name', seems to last for long periods of time.... > There > > doesn't seem much difference between the person called Christine > of > > four years ago (pre-Dhamma days) and now. Still subject to tides > of > > emotion, still don't realise it's happening until minutes, > sometimes > > hours, of being swept along wherever the tide takes me. Nothing > much > > shows on the outside - I'm usually seen by others as a calm and > > controlled person - such a misjudgment ....that's just the outward > > appearance ... earthquakes of emotion and disorderly thoughts on > the > > inside. > > How to separate Feelings from Emotions? Do all the Foundations > need > > to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be > > chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they all > automatically > > intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to > become > > accomplished in..... > > > > metta, > > Christine 14491 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 982/Betty Hi Betty, Thanks for this information. Kind of you to search for me. I don't know why anyone would desire birth as a Supanna unless, as RobK says, they have certain Powers. 'Fairwing' - I like that name very much - If I ever have another budgerigah, I have a ready-made name! :) metta, Christine --- "Mom Bongkojpriya \(Betty\) Yugala" > Hi, Christine, > Am behind, as usual, so please forgive the late reply to your query. The PTS > dictionary (p 719) defines the supanna as: "Fairwing", a kind of fairy bird, > a mythical creature (cp. garula((garuda??)), imagined as winged, considered > as foe to the nagas. The rest are textual references. However, there is no > clue why this would be considered a desirable birth. Sorry I can't help you > further. > > metta, > Betty > _______________________ > > Hi All, > > > > I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 1023 '30 > > Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas. > > Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And why > > would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu > > desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the company > > of these egg-born supannas? > > Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali Text > > Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon. > > > > metta, > > Christine 14492 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 5:12pm Subject: Re: Perfections, Ch 3, no. 3 Dear Nina, Thank you for this wonderful series of posts, 'Perfections". I'm really enjoying them - just short enough to read over a morning cuppa, just enough in them to think about and give the morning a lift. I wonder if you could clarify the meaning for me of what the ascetic Akitti said about Fools ... "they are likely to take upon themselves undue tasks" ... Thanks and metta, Christine --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Perfections, Ch 3, no. 3. > We read in the Commentary: > > The ascetic Akitti said, ³Sakka, lord of the devas, you have offered me a > boon. People who have children, a wife, possessions and all kinds of > pleasant things, are attached to them, even though their attachment does not > cause any harm. However, I wish to be free from all degrees of attachment to > such things. That is the boon I would like to have.² > > This shows that he had a precise understanding of his cittas: he did not > wish to have attachment even if it would not cause any harm. Someone who has > no firm determination in the development of the perfections may believe that > attachment makes life comfortable and pleasant, and that, so long as > attachment does not cause any harm, there is no danger in it. However, > Akitti wanted to be free from all attachment. This is the steadfastness in > kusala that is of the degree of a perfection. We read: > > Thereupon Sakka said, ³ You have well spoken, Kassapa. What else do you wish > for?² > > Do we wish for a boon that will be a condition for kusala to become more > steadfast, just as in the case of Akitti? What he just asked was not > sufficient yet. The following boon that the ascetic Akitti wished for shows > again the meaning of kusala to the degree of a perfection. We read that > Akitti said: > > ³Sakka, the lord of all devas has offered me a boon. Lands, goods and gold, > cows, horses, slaves and relatives decay and pass away. May I not have such > unsatisfactoriness.² > > The loss of possessions is akusala vipåka, the result of akusala kamma that > has been performed by oneself. There will not be such loss if one does not > commit akusala kamma. We read that Akitti asked as a boon: > > ³May there be not any akusala kamma that could cause such loss.² > Sakka said, ³Kassapa, what else do you wish?² > The ascetic Akitti said, ³Please give me this boon: may I not see or hear a > fool nor be in his company, and may I not like to converse with him.² > Sakka asked, ³What is the reason Kassapa, that you do not like fools nor > wish to see them?² > > If we wish to develop the perfection of renunciation we should consider this > passage. If we associate with fools we cannot develop renunciation. The > perfections are interrelated and from the beginning we should consider all > of them. We read: > > The ascetic Akitti said, ³Fools advise to do what is improper, they are > likely to take upon themselves undue tasks; it is difficult to advise them > to perform good deeds. When someone speaks to them in a wholesome way, > hoping that they will become righteous, they retort with anger. Fools do not > know the rules of right conduct (vinaya). It is beneficial not to see > fools.² 14493 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:48pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Rob M Hi Christine, I'm really glad that my messages are helpful. When I am talking directly to a student, I can see in their eyes if I have "lost them". It is tougher using text messages. A couple of things in your message caught my eye. I would like to better understand your approach to Buddhism and the practice. In your library, you probably have many books written to introduce Buddhism to Westerners. Take out a few of them and look at the table of contents. I suspect that many of them will have a structure something like this: Chapter 1: Life of the Buddha Chapter 2: First Noble Truth Chapter 3: Second Noble Truth Chapter 4: Third Noble Truth Chapter 5: Fourth Noble Truth Chapter 6: Eightfold Noble Path Chapter 7: Meditation etc. I believe that introducing Buddhism starting with the Four Noble Truths is not the best approach. Too philosophical. Consider the following quote by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "In the Pali suttas we read time and again that "talk on giving" (danakatha) was invariably the first topic to be discussed by the Buddha in his "graduated exposition" of the Dhamma. Whenever the Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience of people who had not yet come to regard him as their teacher, he would start by emphasizing the value of giving. Only after his audience had come to appreciate this virtue would he introduce other aspects of his teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the benefits in renunciation, and only after all these principles had made their impact on the minds of his listeners would he expound to them that unique discovery of the Awakened Ones, the Four Noble Truths." http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm Paticcasamupadda is pretty philosophical stuff! Let me give an example to illustrate my point. Abhidhamma tells us that dosa is supressed by metta, issa is supressed by mudita and that macchariya is supressed by dana. Supressed, but not uprooted. To uproot dosa, issa and macchariya, we need right understanding. I suggest that it makes sense to try and develop metta, mudita and dana first to supress dosa, issa and macchariya. Once dosa, issa and macchariya have been supressed and the mind is calmed, we can develop right understanding. Right understanding does not come from books, it comes from experience. If we try to develop right understanding first (before developing metta, mudita and dana), we would find that dosa, issa, macchariya and a host of other akusala cetasikas would constantly interfere with our efforts. In my opinion, "practice" is: - Avoid evil (sila / precepts) - Do good (dana) - Purify the mind (meditation) I would like to better understand your practice. You have described it as "awareness of realities as they appear at the different doorways in this moment", but not involving meditation. Given that there are a million cittas every microsecond, how can you accomplish this? I have just reread my message from the beginning. Please understand. I don't mean to be negative or challenge you. I am genuinely interested in understanding more. The stated aim of this study group is to "develop precise understanding of the realities of the present moment." It would appear as though you are aligned and I am confused. Can you (or somebody else) help me understand better? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, and All, > > Thanks Rob - I learn a lot from your posts. Your discussion of Sati > has been really helpful - I'm sure it is often mentioned on list and > in the Useful Posts - but it is not until something becomes a > difficulty that relevant information is 'seen afresh', and you have > written about it in a way that I can understand. I think I suffer > from 'self taught internet-itis' whereby my understanding of Buddha's > Teaching has been stored in a thousand unrelated compartments, and > there has been little integration of the separate topics in the > separate compartments. I should have 'known' about vedana, mental > formations, and craving from my readings on Paticcasamupadda. There > is so much to learn in these early years, so much effort going into > intellectual understanding, that there is a danger that my gathering > of information will blot out direct practice. > You make a good point about not confusing the non-technical sense of > the word 'mindfulness', and to only use it in connection with its > specific meaning. Habitual everyday usage can interfere with clear > understanding of the buddhist meaning. > Your message didn't generate confusion, rather, it helped very much > to clarify things. > Rob, I actually don't currently do sitting meditation but your > remarks and the remarks of the 'old monk' are pertinent to my > practice anyway (awareness of realities as they appear at the > different doorways in this moment), and, as you can tell, I am still > a novice at this. > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > I have a slightly different understanding of "feelings". > > > > In the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, we see that there are only three > > feelings named, "pleasant, painful or neutral". They also ask us to > > differentiate between > > > > When the Abhidhamma catalogues the cittas, one of the ways of > > splitting out the lobha-mula cittas and the beautiful cittas is > > according to the associated feeling (pleasant, painful or neutral). > > > > You can use whichever foundation suits you, but my advice is that > > you keep on watching your breath during meditation. Trying to catch > > the feeling associated with each citta would be next to impossible > > (millions of cittas each microsecond) unless you have already > > developed wise attention (yoniso manasikara) as a mental habit. The > > Buddha used mindfulness of breath under the Bodhi tree. > > > > We also need to be careful of the word, "mindfulness". You have > used > > it in a non-technical sense in your posting, whereas in the Suttas > > and in Abhidhamma, "mindfulness" (sati) has a very specific > meaning. > > The best description of Sati that I have found is in Chapter 13 of > > the book, "Mindfulness in Plain English". Here is a link, > > > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm > > > > When you first become aware of something there is a fleeting > instant > > of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing and > before > > you identify it. That is a stage of Sati. Sati is a softly flowing > > moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of > > reality, not separate from it. Terms used to characterize Sati > > include: "mirror-thought", "non-judgmental observation", "impartial > > watchfulness", "non-conceptual awareness", "present-time > > awareness", "non-egoistic alertness", "goalless > > awareness", "awareness of change" and "participatory observation" > > > > There are three fundamental activities of Sati: > > - Sati reminds us what we are supposed to be doing > > - Sati sees things as they really are > > - Sati sees the deep nature of all phenomena > > - Mindfulness is non-forgetful of kusala and keeps us from akusala > > > > Those who do not know the Dhamma can perform kusala deeds, but our > > knowledge of the Dhamma helps us to be mindful of what is kusala > and > > what is akusala (sharing merit is kusala, killing insects is > akusala) > > > > People who lack sati must chase after Dhamma, but Dhamma chases > > after those who have sati > > > > Sati is different from what is meant by "mindfulness" in > > conventional language. One may think that he is mindful when he > > directs his attention to what he is doing or to what is going on > > around him. That is not the characteristic of sati in the > > development of insight. Sati in vipassana is mindful of a nama or a > > rupa which appears, without there being a thought of self who makes > > an effort or who is directing the attention to an object. > > > > In brief, you can't be "mindful" of emotions because emotions are > > concepts and sati works at the pre-conceptual level. You must see > > emotions as what they are; things that you add on to cover up > > reality. Remember that the emotions are not reality, you have > > distorted reality with these emotions because of your past > > accumulations. Seeing them for what they are takes their power > away. > > Maybe not immediately (deeply ingrained), but give it time. > > > > Christine, I am sorry if my message has generated more confusion. > > > > I sense a frustration in your message regarding a lack of progress > > in your meditation. Let me share with you a personal story. Seven > > months ago, I returned to Jakarta. My wife (Indonesian-Chinese) and > > I decided to go back to the small Thai Vihara where we were married > > twelve years previously. As we sat on the floor, an old monk came > in > > and sat in front of us. After a brief introduction, he looked me in > > the eye and asked, "How is your meditation?" I squirmed. Could he > > read my mind? He said, "You will not find anything that you are > > looking for. Think of meditation as your duty. Your responsibility > > is to sit. Good sitting, bad sitting, it doesn't matter. Your duty > > is to sit. When conditions arise, the results will appear. You are > > not responsible for the results, you are only responsible for > > sitting." > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: 14494 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:58pm Subject: Metta in Daily Life Hi All, In my upcoming class, I will be covering Adosa (Metta and Khanti). I will start with some point form notes from Nina's book, "Cetasikas". Next, I will give a summary of Acharya Buddharakkhita's book, "Metta - The Philosophy and Practice of Universal Love". What I have done in the past and will do with this book is to download the entire text and then delete 80% of the words, keeping 80% of the meaning. This is the class handout (my students don't like to read). I then summarize the main points of the handout verbally. Following this, I will hand out a shortened version of the Subhasita- jaya Sutta (debate on the virtue of patience). I suspect that the US response to September 11 will come up as a discussion point. Here is the web-site for the Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn11-005.html I have written the following "Metta in Daily Life" that I would like the DSG to provide suggestions to add / modify / delete. METTA IN DAILY LIFE =================== Nobody needs to be convinced that metta is good; it is obvious. What is not so obvious is how to put metta into practice. Some people believe that if they sit in their room radiating metta to a person, that this will somehow impact that person. This is wrong. There is no "psychic lightning" that jumps from the meditating mind that impacts another person. A Scenario ========== Let us consider a scenario to illustrate the application of metta in daily life. You hear that an acquaintance has said that they thought you were arrogant. Initial Reaction ---------------- You analyze the situation, "Conditions arose and some vipaka ripened; the result of some past kamma. This is why I have heard these words. Though my past conditioning limits my choices, I still have free will; I can choose how to respond to this situation. If I choose to react negatively, I will have to suffer in the future. Reacting with dosa is like picking up a red-hot iron rod to hit somebody; I hurt myself first before getting a chance to hurt the other person." You examine your feelings, "I feel hurt. However, I understand that the words themselves did not hurt me. It was the emotions that I added onto the words that caused the hurt. The hurt comes from my pride, my conceit, my ego and perhaps, my arrogance. The hurt comes from me and by noting that the source of the emotions, I take away their power." You think about your acquaintance, "This comment shows that my acquaintance has dosa. They will suffer the results of this dosa according to the workings of their own kamma. I cannot allow their weakness to influence me and cause me to create bad kamma for myself. I must react to this situation with mettŒ to benefit both myself and my acquaintance." Planning the Response --------------------- To put metta into action, you decide to bake cookies for your acquaintance. You plan the process with metta. You buy the ingredients with metta. You mix the batter with metta. You put the cookies into a container with metta. With metta, you visualize yourself handing the container of cookies to your acquaintance. Each thought and each action, when done with metta, is kusala. The Response ------------ With metta, you approach your acquaintance and give them the container of cookies, saying something like, "I made some cookies. I would like to share some with you. I hope that you like them." You say it with a smile on your face and metta in your heart. After the Response ------------------ You have done something good; you have given with metta. Remember the pleasant feeling and commit to more kusala actions. Metta Bhavana ============= In the scenario above, there was no mention of metta meditation. Metta meditation is a training of your mind to develop a "habit" of automatically responding to a situation with metta. The mind goes through millions of thought processes each microsecond. One cannot "stand on guard" to ensure that you respond with metta at the appropriate time. To ensure that the mind responds with metta, it is necessary to develop a habit of metta. The only way to develop a habit is through routine repetition - this is why meditation must be performed regularly. Finally, I will give out a copy of Gregory Kramer's excellent piece on teaching Metta to Children (most of my students have kids). http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/lovkids.htm I am looking forward to input from DSG. I plan to incorporate Christine's input plus those of others into the final talk. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14495 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Hi Howard and all, you wrote: op 20-07-2002 19:26 schreef Howard op Howard: >---------------------------------------------------- < Would that "seeing" of the visible object through the mind-door amount > to what might be called the experiencing of a "fresh memory" (a faithful > replica) of the just fallen-away image?> N: Just now you may feel some uneasiness, and it appears, you do not have to think in order to experience its characteristic. When there is sati, it can be mindful of this characteristic, no need to think about doorways, these processes are so fast. When we reason afterwards we know: the process where sati arises and is aware of a nama such as feeling, that object could not arise in the same process, but we can still call it awareness of the present reality. Why? Its characteristic appears. We can just try this out with the above example of uneasiness, or lobha. Does it not have a characteristic, does it not appear? When visible object or seeing appears to sati, sati can be aware of these characteristics one at a time, no need to think of doorways. Just now, we are seeing and it seems to continue for a while. It shows that the mind-door process cittas which still experience visible object follows so quickly. When we learn gradually more what seeing is: the experience of what is visible, what appears through the eye-door, we do not think of *fresh memory or faithful replica of the fallen away image*. I would personally not use these words. For me these words convey too much thinking of the how, where and when, or of what is happening. They do not help me to be directed towards characteristics that can be directly experienced. They give me the association of theory in the field of science, but this is just my own idea. The goal is: taking realities less for self, for my seeing, my visible object. But also thinking about the how and where and when arises because of conditions, such as accumulations, and this has a characteristic, it is nama, different from seeing. As to image: I associate this with Pali nimitta, which is not used for visible object, but the idea or concept, on account of what is seen. Hardness may appear. There is no need to think, "there must be bodysense so that hardness can appear". No need to think whether it appears to sati in the mind-door process. We know, when there is the characteristic of hardness, there must also be a nama which is the experience. Nama and rupa have different characteristics. Sati is aware of only one reality at a time. Sati is not concentration. Nobody can predict what reality (or Howard, O.K. if you prefer the word actuality) will appear, it depends on conditions. Can we plan hearing, aversion or thinking? How can we plan at one moment rupa, at another moment feeling, citta or another dhamma? How could we plan which application of mindfulness it will be? They are all of them just nama and rupa and can be objects of awareness one at a time. How could we direct this? And if one thinks, be aware of only rupas of the body, how can the difference between nama and rupa be known? Is this not basic, because so long as we take them together, so long as they are mixed, these dhammas are not clearly seen as they are. Nor can their arising and falling away, one at a time, be realized. In theory it may be easy to know: nama experiences, rupa does not know anything, but, do they appear to the sati one at a time? This is the only way that their different characteristics can be directly known. Best wishes, from Nina. 14496 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:46am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Rob M Hi Rob M, When a new doctor at the hospital asks me the question 'how is it that you actually do what you do?' I feel the same way I do now when you have asked the question about my practice. It is not that (at work) I don't know very well what I am doing (having been a crisis counsellor and 'doing it' for ten years or more at this Hospital), it is that I find it difficult to articulate the process. Just so, I feel awkward articulating what I try to do in daily life - though here raw inexperience and lack of knowledge plays a large part in my hesitation to describe it. Don't be concerned Rob, I don't feel anxious about your question - I have no problem (now :)) with not knowing what I am doing exactly, or wondering whether others on this list think I'm intelligent or not, or on the right 'track' or not. I realised a while ago that, like the cartoon character Popeye "I yam what I yam". And though they may not express an opinion on my intelligence :) - they will certainly speak up about skilful ways of practice. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about learning approaches for those new to Buddhism - I had no guide, only Google, and the local bookshop. Initially, I was a little like someone who has never seen a kitchen, being let loose with a hundred ingredients and no recipe book. My Buddhist History consists of coming to formal meditation four years or so ago, after a divorce in an attempt to find peace and meaning in life. I attended a weekly samatha- vipassana (Mahasi) group with an excellent teacher, I went to long and short retreats and was satisfied for a year or two. The teacher left, dissatisfaction slowly set in, until I realised it had been his Dhamma talks that were the main attraction, not solely the meditation. On the Internet, I found Dhamma texts and articles and the Yahoo groups. Exposure to different traditions and practices of Buddhism over a year or two (while still continuing formal meditation) led me to know that it was within Theravada, specifically including Abhidhamma studies, where I wished to 'dig my deep hole'. I don't really know what attracted me to this style of practice, or why it is 'just right' for me - kamma and accumulations? I watched, weighed and tested the quality of the teachings and the quality of the people that I met on dsg (and elsewhere). Eventually I went to meet some of them in Bangkok. I went to 'check out' this teacher - Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket - this was over New Year 2001-2002. So there has been just over six months since I started this practice in earnest. I too hope that some of the more experienced members of this group will have some input into your questions. Perhaps, reading from the links below may give you a clearer picturer. Understanding Reality by Nina van Gorkom http://www.dhammastudy.com/ur.html Mental Development in Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom http://www.dhammastudy.com/mental.html as well as appropriate topics in the Dhammastudygroup Useful Posts (some I found helpful were Abhidhamma and Right Understanding, Right Understanding, and Right Understanding and Concentration) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Feel free to make any comments or ask any questions of the group that occur to you. No-one here will mind what opinions you have, there is nothing to be aligned to - there are some who practise samatha and some who do not. Often there are quite stimulating discussions on different ways of practice. metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I'm really glad that my messages are helpful. When I am talking > directly to a student, I can see in their eyes if I have "lost > them". It is tougher using text messages. > > A couple of things in your message caught my eye. I would like to > better understand your approach to Buddhism and the practice. > > In your library, you probably have many books written to introduce > Buddhism to Westerners. Take out a few of them and look at the table > of contents. I suspect that many of them will have a structure > something like this: > Chapter 1: Life of the Buddha > Chapter 2: First Noble Truth > Chapter 3: Second Noble Truth > Chapter 4: Third Noble Truth > Chapter 5: Fourth Noble Truth > Chapter 6: Eightfold Noble Path > Chapter 7: Meditation > etc. > > I believe that introducing Buddhism starting with the Four Noble > Truths is not the best approach. Too philosophical. Consider the > following quote by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "In the Pali suttas we read time and again that "talk on giving" > (danakatha) was invariably the first topic to be discussed by the > Buddha in his "graduated exposition" of the Dhamma. Whenever the > Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience of people who had not > yet come to regard him as their teacher, he would start by > emphasizing the value of giving. Only after his audience had come to > appreciate this virtue would he introduce other aspects of his > teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the benefits in > renunciation, and only after all these principles had made their > impact on the minds of his listeners would he expound to them that > unique discovery of the Awakened Ones, the Four Noble Truths." > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm > > Paticcasamupadda is pretty philosophical stuff! > > Let me give an example to illustrate my point. Abhidhamma tells us > that dosa is supressed by metta, issa is supressed by mudita and > that macchariya is supressed by dana. Supressed, but not uprooted. > To uproot dosa, issa and macchariya, we need right understanding. I > suggest that it makes sense to try and develop metta, mudita and > dana first to supress dosa, issa and macchariya. Once dosa, issa and > macchariya have been supressed and the mind is calmed, we can > develop right understanding. Right understanding does not come from > books, it comes from experience. If we try to develop right > understanding first (before developing metta, mudita and dana), we > would find that dosa, issa, macchariya and a host of other akusala > cetasikas would constantly interfere with our efforts. > > In my opinion, "practice" is: > - Avoid evil (sila / precepts) > - Do good (dana) > - Purify the mind (meditation) > > I would like to better understand your practice. You have described > it as "awareness of realities as they appear at the different > doorways in this moment", but not involving meditation. Given that > there are a million cittas every microsecond, how can you accomplish > this? > > I have just reread my message from the beginning. Please understand. > I don't mean to be negative or challenge you. I am genuinely > interested in understanding more. The stated aim of this study group > is to "develop precise understanding of the realities of the present > moment." It would appear as though you are aligned and I am confused. > > Can you (or somebody else) help me understand better? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob M, and All, > > > > Thanks Rob - I learn a lot from your posts. Your discussion of > Sati > > has been really helpful - I'm sure it is often mentioned on list > and > > in the Useful Posts - but it is not until something becomes a > > difficulty that relevant information is 'seen afresh', and you > have > > written about it in a way that I can understand. I think I suffer > > from 'self taught internet-itis' whereby my understanding of > Buddha's > > Teaching has been stored in a thousand unrelated compartments, and > > there has been little integration of the separate topics in the > > separate compartments. I should have 'known' about vedana, mental > > formations, and craving from my readings on Paticcasamupadda. > There > > is so much to learn in these early years, so much effort going > into > > intellectual understanding, that there is a danger that my > gathering > > of information will blot out direct practice. > > You make a good point about not confusing the non-technical sense > of > > the word 'mindfulness', and to only use it in connection with its > > specific meaning. Habitual everyday usage can interfere with clear > > understanding of the buddhist meaning. > > Your message didn't generate confusion, rather, it helped very > much > > to clarify things. > > Rob, I actually don't currently do sitting meditation but your > > remarks and the remarks of the 'old monk' are pertinent to my > > practice anyway (awareness of realities as they appear at the > > different doorways in this moment), and, as you can tell, I am > still > > a novice at this. > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > --- "robmoult" wrote: 14497 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/22/02 1:02:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Hi Howard and all, > you wrote: > op 20-07-2002 19:26 schreef Howard op Howard: > >---------------------------------------------------- > < Would that "seeing" of the visible object through the mind-door amount > > to what might be called the experiencing of a "fresh memory" (a faithful > > replica) of the just fallen-away image?> > N: Just now you may feel some uneasiness, and it appears, you do not have > to > think in order to experience its characteristic. When there is sati, it can > be mindful of this characteristic, no need to think about doorways, these > processes are so fast. =============================== Thank you for your kind reply. However, I must be a bit dense today - that is, more dense than usual ;-). I'm not following you. When an object is gone, so are all its characteristics gone. When the visual object is gone - that is, when the visual consciousness is completed and mental discernment, instead, is operative, the mental discernment must be discerning some mental object, which I *presumed* must be "a 'fresh memory' (a faithful replica) of the just fallen-away image". If that is not what the object of the mental consciousness is, what is it then? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14498 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:34am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Rob M Hi Christine, I am relieved that you understood my question in the spirit in which it was asked. It is not by random chance that you were drawn to the kind of work that you do and that you are attracted to Abhidhamma. It sounds as though you were a Buddhist is a previous life. I admire the kind of work that you do. Ajan Chah called this, "being a garbage pail with a hole in the bottom". People dump their garbage into you and you must have a hole so that none of it accumulates. I had read Nina's "Understanding Realities" before - it was one of the first handouts to the class. I particularly liked the part about eating the duck's foot - it really drove home the point. Over the next couple of days I will read the other links that you have provided and I will probably have some more questions. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > When a new doctor at the hospital asks me the question 'how is it > that you actually do what you do?' I feel the same way I do now when > you have asked the question about my practice. It is not that (at > work) I don't know very well what I am doing (having been a crisis > counsellor and 'doing it' for ten years or more at this Hospital), it > is that I find it difficult to articulate the process. Just so, I > feel awkward articulating what I try to do in daily life - though > here raw inexperience and lack of knowledge plays a large part in my > hesitation to describe it. > Don't be concerned Rob, I don't feel anxious about your question - I > have no problem (now :)) with not knowing what I am doing exactly, or > wondering whether others on this list think I'm intelligent or not, > or on the right 'track' or not. I realised a while ago that, like > the cartoon character Popeye "I yam what I yam". And though they may > not express an opinion on my intelligence :) - they will certainly > speak up about skilful ways of practice. > I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about learning approaches > for those new to Buddhism - I had no guide, only Google, and the > local bookshop. Initially, I was a little like someone who has > never seen a kitchen, being let loose with a hundred ingredients and > no recipe book. My Buddhist History consists of coming to formal > meditation four years or so ago, after a divorce in an attempt to > find peace and meaning in life. I attended a weekly samatha- > vipassana (Mahasi) group with an excellent teacher, I went to long > and short retreats and was satisfied for a year or two. The teacher > left, dissatisfaction slowly set in, until I realised it had been his > Dhamma talks that were the main attraction, not solely the > meditation. On the Internet, I found Dhamma texts and articles and > the Yahoo groups. Exposure to different traditions and practices of > Buddhism over a year or two (while still continuing formal > meditation) led me to know that it was within Theravada, > specifically including Abhidhamma studies, where I wished to 'dig my > deep hole'. > I don't really know what attracted me to this style of practice, or > why it is 'just right' for me - kamma and accumulations? I watched, > weighed and tested the quality of the teachings and the quality of > the people that I met on dsg (and elsewhere). Eventually I went to > meet some of them in Bangkok. I went to 'check out' this teacher - > Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket - this was over New Year 2001-2002. So > there has been just over six months since I started this practice in > earnest. I too hope that some of the more experienced members of > this group will have some input into your questions. Perhaps, reading > from the links below may give you a clearer picturer. > Understanding Reality by Nina van Gorkom > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ur.html > Mental Development in Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom > http://www.dhammastudy.com/mental.html > as well as appropriate topics in the Dhammastudygroup Useful Posts > (some I found helpful were Abhidhamma and Right Understanding, Right > Understanding, and Right Understanding and Concentration) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > Feel free to make any comments or ask any questions of the group that > occur to you. No-one here will mind what opinions you have, there is > nothing to be aligned to - there are some who practise samatha and > some who do not. Often there are quite stimulating discussions on > different ways of practice. > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > I'm really glad that my messages are helpful. When I am talking > > directly to a student, I can see in their eyes if I have "lost > > them". It is tougher using text messages. > > > > A couple of things in your message caught my eye. I would like to > > better understand your approach to Buddhism and the practice. > > > > In your library, you probably have many books written to introduce > > Buddhism to Westerners. Take out a few of them and look at the > table > > of contents. I suspect that many of them will have a structure > > something like this: > > Chapter 1: Life of the Buddha > > Chapter 2: First Noble Truth > > Chapter 3: Second Noble Truth > > Chapter 4: Third Noble Truth > > Chapter 5: Fourth Noble Truth > > Chapter 6: Eightfold Noble Path > > Chapter 7: Meditation > > etc. > > > > I believe that introducing Buddhism starting with the Four Noble > > Truths is not the best approach. Too philosophical. Consider the > > following quote by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > > > "In the Pali suttas we read time and again that "talk on giving" > > (danakatha) was invariably the first topic to be discussed by the > > Buddha in his "graduated exposition" of the Dhamma. Whenever the > > Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience of people who had not > > yet come to regard him as their teacher, he would start by > > emphasizing the value of giving. Only after his audience had come > to > > appreciate this virtue would he introduce other aspects of his > > teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the benefits in > > renunciation, and only after all these principles had made their > > impact on the minds of his listeners would he expound to them that > > unique discovery of the Awakened Ones, the Four Noble Truths." > > > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm > > > > Paticcasamupadda is pretty philosophical stuff! > > > > Let me give an example to illustrate my point. Abhidhamma tells us > > that dosa is supressed by metta, issa is supressed by mudita and > > that macchariya is supressed by dana. Supressed, but not uprooted. > > To uproot dosa, issa and macchariya, we need right understanding. I > > suggest that it makes sense to try and develop metta, mudita and > > dana first to supress dosa, issa and macchariya. Once dosa, issa > and > > macchariya have been supressed and the mind is calmed, we can > > develop right understanding. Right understanding does not come from > > books, it comes from experience. If we try to develop right > > understanding first (before developing metta, mudita and dana), we > > would find that dosa, issa, macchariya and a host of other akusala > > cetasikas would constantly interfere with our efforts. > > > > In my opinion, "practice" is: > > - Avoid evil (sila / precepts) > > - Do good (dana) > > - Purify the mind (meditation) > > > > I would like to better understand your practice. You have described > > it as "awareness of realities as they appear at the different > > doorways in this moment", but not involving meditation. Given that > > there are a million cittas every microsecond, how can you > accomplish > > this? > > > > I have just reread my message from the beginning. Please > understand. > > I don't mean to be negative or challenge you. I am genuinely > > interested in understanding more. The stated aim of this study > group > > is to "develop precise understanding of the realities of the > present > > moment." It would appear as though you are aligned and I am > confused. > > > > Can you (or somebody else) help me understand better? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: 14499 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] Digest Number 982/Betty Dear Christine & Mom Betty, I think some people desire the rebirths because: 1) Their supernatural powers and strengths 2) Their deva-like comfort in lives. The nagas and supanna represent the extreme side of a rebirth of an animal, mainly, it is comfortable, although it is impossible to develop Jhana or Magga. BTW, supanna is also the official emblem of the king of Thailand. Mom Betty would know how the Thais think a supanna looks like... kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 2:07 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 982/Betty > > > Hi Betty, > > Thanks for this information. Kind of you to search for me. I don't > know why anyone would desire birth as a Supanna unless, as RobK says, > they have certain Powers. > > 'Fairwing' - I like that name very much - If I ever have another > budgerigah, I have a ready-made name! :) > > metta, > Christine 14500 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:28am Subject: ADL ch. 17 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 17 (1) DOORS AND PHYSICAL BASES OF CITTA The Buddha pointed out the dangers of being infatuated by the objects we experience through the six doors. He taught people to develop the wisdom which knows the realities experienced through the six doors as nama and rupa, phenomena which are impermanent and not self. What is impermanent is 'dukkha', it cannot be happiness. When we come to know things as they are, we will be less infatuated by objects. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch. III, par. 81, A brother) about the purpose of the Buddha's teachings. The text states: Then a number of monks came to see the Exalted One.... Seated at one side those monks said to the Exalted One:- - 'Now here, lord, the wandering sectarians thus question us: 'What is the object, friend, for which the holy life is lived under the rule of Gotama the recluse?' Thus questioned, lord, 'we thus make answer to those wandering sectarians : 'It is for the full knowledge of dukkha that the holy life is lived under the rule of the Exalted One. Pray, lord, when, thus questioned, we so make answer, do we state the views of the Exalted One, without misrepresenting the Exalted One by stating an untruth? Do we answer in accordance with his teaching, so that no one who agrees with his teaching and follows his views could incur reproach?' 'Truly, monks, when thus questioned, you thus make answer, you do state my views.. in stating that it is for the full knowledge of dukkha that the holy life is lived under my rule. But if, monks, the wandering sectarians should thus question you : 'But what, friend, is that dukkha, for the full knowledge of which the holy life is lived under the rule of Gotama the recluse?'- - thus questioned you should answer thus: 'The eye, friend, is dukkha. For the full knowledge of that the holy life is lived... Objects...that pleasant or unpleasant or indifferent feeling that arises through mind-contact,- - that also is dukkha. Fully to know that, the holy life is lived under the rule of the Exalted One.' Thus questioned, monks, by those wandering sectarians, thus should you make answer.' In being aware of nama and rupa which appear, such as seeing, visible object, feeling or thinking, we can prove the truth of the Buddha's teachings by ourselves ; we can prove that the objects experienced through the six doors are impermanent and not self. The truth will not be known if one follows other people blindly or if one speculates about the truth. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Ch. V, par. 152, Is there a method?) that the Buddha said: 'ls there, monks, any method, by following which a monk, apart from belief, apart from inclination, apart from hearsay, apart from argument as to method, apart from reflection on reasons, apart from delight in speculation, could affirm insight thus : 'Ended is birth, lived is the righteous life, done is the task, for life in these conditions there is no hereafter?' 'For us, lord, things have their root in the Exalted One... Well indeed were it if the meaning of this that has been spoken were to manifest itself in the Exalted One. Hearing it from him the monks will remember it.' 'There is indeed a method, monks, by following which a monk....could affirm insight...And what is that method? Herein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and ignorance, thus : 'I have lust, malice and ignorance', or recognizes the non-existence of these qualities within him, thus: 'I have not lust, malice and ignorance.' Now as to that recognition of their existence or non-existence within him, are these conditions, I ask, to be understood by belief, or by inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation?' 'Surely not, lord.' 'Are not these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?' 'Surely, lord.' 'Then, monks, this is the method by following which, apart from belief... a monk could affirm insight thus: 'Ended is birth...for life in these conditions there is no hereafter." The same is said with regard to the ear-door, the door of the nose, the door of the tongue, the body-door and the mind-door. 14501 From: yuzhonghao Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Victor Hi Christine, No, Christine, it does not mean mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is the only way, nor does it mean there is some other way. What I understand is this: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination." Regards, Victor --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks for this Victor, Does this mean mindfulness of in-and-out > breathing is the ONLY way when developed and pursued, that brings the > four frames of reference to their culmination? > > metta, > Christine > > --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > > Hi, Howard, Christine, and all, > > > > I would like to bring the following passage to attention: > > > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their > culmination. > > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > > > Regards, > > Victor 14502 From: yuzhonghao Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:45am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Victor Hi Christine, --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Reply interspersed below. > > "How to separate Feelings from Emotions?" > Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by > feelings and emotions. > >>>>>Christine: What my understanding is of what the Buddha means by > feelings and emotions, I have gained from readings such > as "Contemplation of Feelings" by Nyanaponika Thera. > Excerpt" One may now appreciate the significance of the Buddha's > terse saying that 'all things converge on feelings.' The central > position of feeling in human life also makes it clear why the Buddha > included feelings as a separate category among the five constituent > aggregates of personality (pancakkhandha) and as a separate mode of > contemplation in the four foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana)." > and > "In precise pinpointing of mental states undertaken in Buddhist > psychology, feeling (vedana) is understood as the bare sensation > experienced as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral > (indifferent). It is distinguished from emotion, a more complex > phenomenon which arises from the basic feeling, but adds to it > various overlays of an evaluative, volitional and cognitive > character." It is fine if you understand feelings and emotions that way. However one understands them, one is be mindful of them in developing mindfulness. > > "Do all the Foundations need to be practiced?" > Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? > >>>>Christine: Not sure. DO all of them need to be developed? Do you think one can develop mindfulness without developing mindfulness of body? Do you think one can develop mindfulness without developing mindfulness of feelings? Do you think one can develop mindfulness without developing mindfulness of mind? Do you think one can develop mindfulness without developing mindfulness of mental qualities? If one is not to develop mindfulness, one does not need to develop mindfulness of body or mindfulness of feelings or mindfulness of mind or mindfulness of mental qualities at all. If one is to develop mindfulness, then yes, all of them need to be developed. > > "Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to the > exclusion of all others?" > Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of all > others? > >>>>Christine: Not sure. Most Western Buddhists sit and watch the > breath, a small part of one Foundation, and this seems to be > considered sufficient. Hmmm...I am here not to judge whether sitting and watching the breathing is a small part of one Foundation, nor am I here to judge whether it is considered sufficient or not for most Western Buddhists. > > "Or do they automatically intermingle?" > Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job > easier. Wouldn't it? > >>>>Christine: Not sure ... and I asked first. :) > OK. > Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become accomplished > in .... > Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? > >>>>Christine: Not sure. I'm trying to find out the totality of > what needs to be done. How would you develop mindfulness? > > metta, > Christine Regards, Victor 14503 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:06am Subject: Re: Metta in Daily Life Dear RobM, I can give some extra points to those below. Metta can be developed within or without the sasana of the Buddha - hence even with a solid belief in self one may succeed in developing metta. However, right understanding of anatta can cut through much kilesa and so be a condition for metta. In the Abhidhamma it is explained that wholesome(kusala) or unwholesome (akusala) mindstates can be asankharika (unprompted, spontaneous, not induced by someone else or by one's own consideration) or sasankharika (prompted ). One of the benefits of regular consideration of the different aspects of Dhamma is that there are more conditions for bringing the teaching to mind in different situations. For instance someone may say something we find annoying and immediately anger of some degree arises - the anger is asankharika (unprompted) , we didn't need to contempate for it to arise. But then soon afterwards patience and understanding and metta can arise because of the bringing to mind of such aspects of the teachings as anicca i.e. " all dhammas pass away instantly, who then are you angry with - the air?". And so the anger dissipates. The more often the teachings are brought to mind, in whatever situation, the more variety of sasankharika (prompted) wholesome states that will arise; not only that but they will arise more and more rapidly, until they may gradually become habitual and then they will be asankharika (unprompted), they arise naturally without any prompting. This, of course takes time and effort, and happens not because of study alone but only by applying the Dhamma repeatedly. And it all happens by conditions, not self, anatta; the times when there had to be careful bringing to mind for kusala to arise was just as conditioned as when it arose without prompting. The metta and patience are just as anatta as anger and ill-will. There can also be direct insight into the moments of sound - and if there is then there will be no unwholesome reaction at all, and so metta is free to arise. Robert --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > In my upcoming class, I will be covering Adosa (Metta and Khanti). > > I will start with some point form notes from Nina's > book, "Cetasikas". > > Next, I will give a summary of Acharya Buddharakkhita's > book, "Metta - The Philosophy and Practice of Universal Love". What > I have done in the past and will do with this book is to download > the entire text and then delete 80% of the words, keeping 80% of the > meaning. This is the class handout (my students don't like to read). > I then summarize the main points of the handout verbally. > > Following this, I will hand out a shortened version of the Subhasita- > jaya Sutta (debate on the virtue of patience). I suspect that the US > response to September 11 will come up as a discussion point. > > Here is the web-site for the Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn11-005.html > > I have written the following "Metta in Daily Life" that I would like > the DSG to provide suggestions to add / modify / delete. > > METTA IN DAILY LIFE > =================== > Nobody needs to be convinced that metta is good; it is obvious. What > is not so obvious is how to put metta into practice. Some people > believe that if they sit in their room radiating metta to a person, > that this will somehow impact that person. This is wrong. There is > no "psychic lightning" that jumps from the meditating mind that > impacts another person. > > A Scenario > ========== > Let us consider a scenario to illustrate the application of metta in > daily life. You hear that an acquaintance has said that they thought > you were arrogant. > > Initial Reaction > ---------------- > You analyze the situation, "Conditions arose and some vipaka > ripened; the result of some past kamma. This is why I have heard > these words. Though my past conditioning limits my choices, I still > have free will; I can choose how to respond to this situation. If I > choose to react negatively, I will have to suffer in the future. > Reacting with dosa is like picking up a red-hot iron rod to hit > somebody; I hurt myself first before getting a chance to hurt the > other person." > > You examine your feelings, "I feel hurt. However, I understand that > the words themselves did not hurt me. It was the emotions that I > added onto the words that caused the hurt. The hurt comes from my > pride, my conceit, my ego and perhaps, my arrogance. The hurt comes > from me and by noting that the source of the emotions, I take away > their power." > > You think about your acquaintance, "This comment shows that my > acquaintance has dosa. They will suffer the results of this dosa > according to the workings of their own kamma. I cannot allow their > weakness to influence me and cause me to create bad kamma for > myself. I must react to this situation with mettŒ to benefit both > myself and my acquaintance." > > Planning the Response > --------------------- > To put metta into action, you decide to bake cookies for your > acquaintance. You plan the process with metta. You buy the > ingredients with metta. You mix the batter with metta. You put the > cookies into a container with metta. With metta, you visualize > yourself handing the container of cookies to your acquaintance. Each > thought and each action, when done with metta, is kusala. > > The Response > ------------ > With metta, you approach your acquaintance and give them the > container of cookies, saying something like, "I made some cookies. I > would like to share some with you. I hope that you like them." You > say it with a smile on your face and metta in your heart. > > After the Response > ------------------ > You have done something good; you have given with metta. Remember > the pleasant feeling and commit to more kusala actions. > > Metta Bhavana > ============= > In the scenario above, there was no mention of metta meditation. > Metta meditation is a training of your mind to develop a "habit" of > automatically responding to a situation with metta. > > The mind goes through millions of thought processes each > microsecond. One cannot "stand on guard" to ensure that you respond > with metta at the appropriate time. To ensure that the mind responds > with metta, it is necessary to develop a habit of metta. The only > way to develop a habit is through routine repetition - this is why > meditation must be performed regularly. > > > > Finally, I will give out a copy of Gregory Kramer's excellent piece > on teaching Metta to Children (most of my students have kids). > > http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/lovkids.htm > > > I am looking forward to input from DSG. I plan to incorporate > Christine's input plus those of others into the final talk. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14504 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) VERY nice. Well, all the latest pictures are very impressive. If I hadn't already put in two of myself and one of my child, I would post one of me in a nice shirt to compete!! Robert ================= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear O, (Num and Kom), > > I think we did it!! What an attractive group - clearly dsg-ers! > Please go to > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > and click on photos 38 and 39. > Yahoo wouldn't let me type in a longer description of the photos - > so I'll have to tell the Group here that the first one is of Num and > you at the Bridal Shop in Shop in San Francisco. The second one is > of Kom, yourself, and Num when Num was transiting to Thailand via San > Francisco. > > Everyone - O has offered a warm welcome to any DSG members passing > through San Francisco and requests they get in touch (So she can > collect more pictures! :):)) > > metta, > Christine 14505 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Hi Jon. Ramble alert. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > Jon, > > I have finally worked my way backwards to this post. The problem is, in > > going > > backwards, there are always new posts to get through. It's like trying > > to get > > through the powerful waves at the shoreline to try to get out to the big > > waves at > > sea. There are always more waves coming in. Anyway, enough analogy. > > A good analogy, Rob. I find it perfectly describes the difficulty I'm > having in getting anything posted on this thread. There are always plenty > of other interesting (not to mention challenging) posts to respond to! > > > I find your 'battle plan' for the jhanas very congenial, and I like your > > goal in > > looking at samatha and the jhanas as well as my own. I think between us > > we have a > > pretty good interest in looking at the subject, and I'll look forward to > > anything > > you find. > > > > I'll also be on the lookout myself. > > Yes, I think we'll make a good team (between us covering the 2 extremes of > view!!) > > Jon ha ha. well I finally got this post, just in time for a good chuckle. yup, what's fun is to know you're on one extreme or the other and to just see it as 'conditions'. It's like the 'path' itself. I stopped being so impatient when I suddenly got a view of how gigantic it was, way beyond what I could even imagine seeing, like the universe itself. Or when I saw the Himalayas for the first time [1 out of 2]. You think: 'Well that's impossible; they're not there.' Then you have to give up, and realize there are some things so much bigger than you, that it's ridiculous. How small we are. One's own nature is like that too. The years that I spent trying to change myself by main force. At some point you give up and contribute 'what you are' to the situation. So here we are, covering both ends of intention without having the capacity to intend anything in the first place. None of this has anything to do with the jhanas, but that's okay. Robert Ep. 14506 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob Ep, > > Always glad to see you around..looking f/w to when you and Jon actually > brave those waves;-) > : ) Hi Sarah, I'm looking forward to Jon and me braving the waves too...especially Jon! ha ha. > What fun we had when we were young......;-) Yup. I'm glad I'm having less fun now! : ) Best, Robert Ep. 14507 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Dear Jon, Your points are well taken, and they lead me to a question: if samatha is [possibly] not necessary as a condition for vipassana; and if samatha is as difficult to attain as vipassana; but the attainment of enlightenment with samatha is a higher attainment than of enlightenment alone; what is it that samatha is *necessary* for; what is it's great value as far as you know so far; and what role *does* it play in the development of insight/enlightenment/liberation? I know it's a big question, but I am only asking for a temporary clarification on the way; sometimes I forget simple things and suddenly don't know what I'm talking about....or perhaps that is just the development of a bit of insight on my own lack of understanding.... : / Best, Robert Ep. =================================== --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Thanks for these comments, Rob. I will extract 1 or 2 passages from your > post and intersperse my comments. > > Rob: "…the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization is a factor > in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that > are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality". > > Jon: It is true, as you say, that "insight cannot be developed by cittas > that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality". But then, > neither can samatha (or the jhanas) be developed by cittas that are > 'clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality'. > > Both samatha and vipassana require panna for their development. But there > is a difference in the quality of the panna required -- in the case of > samatha it is panna of the kind that knows the difference between kusala > and akusala mental states, and knows the value of the tranquillity that > comes with kusala. In the case of vipassana, it is panna that knows the > true nature of the dhamma (be it a mental state or sense-door object) > presently appearing. > > As to the ignorance or and wrong view that lies behind any 'ignorant > conceptualizations of reality', these factors are as much hindrances to > samatha as they are to vipassana. > > As far as other kilesas are concerned, in neither case can the panna arise > contemporaneously with the akusala. But this aside, there is an important > difference between samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana in the manner in > which the other kilesa constitute a hindrance to its development, and this > is tied in with the different nature of the 2 kinds of development. At > high levels of samatha, further progress depends on being able to maintain > continuously a particular object or sign (kammatthana or nimitta). Any > moment of akusala that disturbs this continuity therefore interrupts the > development. > > In the development of insight, however, there is no single or particular > dhamma that is the 'right' object for awareness or understanding. A > moment of (just fallen away) akusala is as good an object for insight as > any another dhamma. Indeed, all categories of dhammas, including the > kilesas, must sooner or later be seen as they truly are, otherwise the > idea of self will not be eradicated in relation to that particular > category of dhamma. > > Of course, since the Buddha urged the development of all kinds of kusala, > samatha included, we should not neglect any opportunity for development of > any aspect of kusala. Also, I acknowledge that the attainment of both > mundane jhana and enlightenment is a higher attainment than the attainment > of enlightenment alone. Nevertheless, it is important to understand > clearly the distinction between the 2 as regards their characteristic, > function and goal. There is a tendency to fudge the difference. > > Well, I seem to have gone on at some length on this 1 point, so perhaps > I'll send this off and come back on any other points later. > > Jon > > ============ 14508 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Let me continue with 1 or 2 other points from your post. > > Rob: "…samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not > lead to insight or enlightenment. The jhanas, being very deep samadhic > states which are difficult to attain and require special types of > concentration, might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without > insight." > > Jon: Hmmm … Not sure about this. Samatha is the tranquillity that > accompanies wholesome (kusala) moments only, and the jhanas are the > highest form of samatha. In other words, jhana is the outcome of samatha > properly developed and maintained to its fullest. So samatha could never > lead to a drug-like state. Perhaps you are thinking of concentration. > Concentration can be either kusala or akusala, and may indeed lead to > unwholesome concentrated states. Hi Jon. I have heard samatha and samadhi used somewhat interchangeably. I think that you would obviously disagree, and say that samadhi can be abused, but not samatha. There are others of course who use samadhi in the same positive sense; they would not define it as samadhi if it is an unskillful form of concentration, since samadhi is the height of skillful concentration. It is possible they can be used interchangeably in the kusala sense, and that some other terms should be used for concentration-lobotomy and bliss addiction. > Rob: "There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practising the > jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval?' > > Jon: The practice of samatha and the attainment of the jhanas was > obviously very widespread among ascetics of all persuasions in the time of > the Buddha. It was I believe a phenomenon that existed quite > independently of the Buddha's encouragement of it to his followers. > > It was approved and encouraged by the Buddha, I suppose, because it is a > very high level of kusala and, as such, a support for the development of > panna/vipassana. While samatha is not something that only monks can have > or develop, its development to the degree of jhana, and the attainments > that come with its mastery, is a proper 'resort' (gocara') for monks in > particular rather than lay-people. So you feel that Buddha was not prescribing the jhanas, but simply acknowledging them as one possible positive support for development of the path? Best, Robert Ep. 14509 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha images Dear Ruth, Since I'm always rather way behind with reading the digests in the list, a very belated welcome to you. I must confess that every time I see your name, it brings up memories of my wonderful mother who was also named Ruth Klein. Klein was her maiden name. I too come from the same cultural background as you and had the same doubts and uncomfortable feelings about bowing down to a "graven image" when I first came to Thailand back in 1966. I could not see the purpose of it, and at the time, thought it totally unnecessary. I saw the images only as lovely art objects, but bowed to them during ceremonies out of respect for my husband's family. Later, many here tried to convince me that the images held "psychic powers" and indeed, many Thais venerate them for the "power" they believe the images possess. However, with the study of Abhidhamma, a new understanding of Buddha images arose. The Tipitaka says (sorry, I don't know the text reference, would someone kindly help me out?) something to the effect: he who sees the Dhamma, sees the Tathagata. One who increasingly understands the Dhamma, likewise becomes increasingly aware of the awesomeness of both the Dhamma and of the One who discovered and taught the Dhamma to us. So now, when I do see a Buddha image, it acts as a "condition" for the arising of a sense of joy and thanksgiving for the Dhamma, with the understanding that the image itself is just a reminder to us to keep on developing bhavana, dana and sila. By the way, at the Foundation where Achaan Sujin teaches, there are no Buddha images at all. There is a tastefully designed altar with a lovely crystal "stupa" which has a relic of the Buddha encased within, given to the Foundation by the Supreme Patriarch. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 ________________________________________________________________________ > > > I couldn't agree more! One of my most frequent doubts is the g-dlike > reverence (bowing, statues, etc) to Siddhartha Gautama. I understand, > intellectually, the significance of a man achieving enlightenment. And that > bowing, to someone brought up in an Asian culture, is a gesture of respect, > and used for all teachers, dignitaries, etc - almost like a Western > handshake. (Ok, not quite, but you get the idea... its a cultural thing.) > > However, I cannot help but stop myself from setting up my own altar or > bowing to the Buddha, simply because of the conditioned beliefs of "Thou > shalt have no other g-d before me." and "Thou shalt not make unto thee any > graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above...." > > Also, if I am not mistaken, though the earlier suttas expound that > Siddhartha Gautama was a man, some of the later ones (and works such as the > Buddhavamsa) have elevated him past the human realm to a superman, > Maha-Purisa. (See George Bond: "The Word of the Buddha: The Tipitaka and > its Interpretation in Theravada Buddhism", M.D. Gunasena & Co, 1982). > > I don't know if I will ever 'resolve' these internal conflicts; but I need > to explore them further. > 14510 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: translation Dear Christine, Thanks for your kind words. The undue tasks: I used my Jataka translation and the Thai and some of it is not clear. Here we could ask Kom: Thai: p. 26, they apply themselves to tasks which are not (their) business? Mai chai thura, somewhat strange. My Jataka (and yours): the fool: binds loads on him that none should bear. The English translation of the Jataka is sometimes strange. Undue burdens is better. My guess: he is a fool, he takes upon himself burdens he cannot cope with. op 22-07-2002 11:12 schreef christine_forsyth op Christine: > I wonder if you could clarify the meaning for me of what the ascetic > Akitti said about Fools ... "they are likely to take upon themselves > undue tasks" ... 14511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:02am Subject: Perfections, ch 3, no. 4 Perfections, Ch 3, no. 4: Sakka asked: ³Kassapa, what else do you wish for?² The ascetic Akitti said: ³Sakka, King of the Devas, if you like to give me a boon, I would ask you the following boon: people should see wise men, they should listen to them, seek their company and cherish conversations with them.² Sakka questioned Akitti so that he would give a clear explanation for the benefit of those who wish to have precise understanding and who study the Dhamma. Sakka asked Akitti, ³Kassapa, please explain the reason why you like to associate with the wise, why you wish to see the wise?² The ascetic Akitti said, ³The wise advise to do what is proper, they do not take upon themselves undue burdens. It is easy to encourage the wise. They do not retort well spoken words with anger. They know well right conduct. It is good to associate with the wise. Sakka asked, ³What else do you wish for?² The ascetic Akitti said, ³When the night is spent and the sun, the ruler of the world, rises, may divine food and holy mendicants appear, and may the food that I will offer not become exhausted. May I not repent my deed but give with a pure mind. This is a boon I wish for.² Sakka asked, ³What else do you wish for?² The ascetic Akitti said, ³Sakka, King of the Devas, if you want to give me a boon, may you not visit me again.² This is the last boon the ascetic Akitti asked for. This shows that he was not heedless with regard to the akusala he had accumulated. Sakka was most surprised because everybody wishes to see sons and daugthers of devas, divine beings. Some people develop kusala of the degree of calm in order to see devas. But the ascetic Akitti wished that Sakka would not visit him again. We read: Sakka said, ³Many people wish to see, because of their righteous conduct, sons and daughters of devas. What is the danger in seeing me?² The ascetic Akitti answered, ³I may transgress my vow of ascetism when I see the appearance of devas, beings who are full of glory and delightful to the senses. This is the danger in seeing you.² Thereupon Sakka said, ³This is good, revered one, from now on I shall not visit you again² and he departed. The Bodhisatta dwellt in the same place during his whole life. After he passed away he was reborn in the world of the Brahma. The reverend Anuruddha was Sakka, the Buddha was the ascetic Akitti. The ascetic Akitti was heedful, he did not even want to see what could be a danger to him. We can learn a lesson from this story, we should consider the perfections with regard to our own life. We have a long way to go in order to attain the realization of the four noble Truths and the eradication of defilements. If we do not understand what the perfections really are, we do not have the firm determination to study the Dhamma in order to have right understanding, to apply the Dhamma and to practise it with sincerity, which is the perfection of truthfulness. We should study and practise without being disturbed by the worldly conditions of gain, loss, honour, dishonour, praise, blame, happiness and misery. If we are unshakable by these worldly conditions, we are beginning to develop the perfections so that they become more firmly established. 14512 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: translation Dear Nina and Christine, If you have the atthagatha to the particular jataka, there is a further explanation. Let me first give you comments on the Thai translation, and I will give you a translation from the Thai commentaries (be careful!) Mai chai thura in Thai is exactly how you translated, not their business. Dhura may have additional meaning, though: if you stretch it, it probably can mean duty, behavior, or practice. The commentary says this: a-dhura-yang(???) (same word root as thura): means someone with inferior panna, who doesn't induce in others the business (the development?) of saddha, the development of sila, the development of panna, who induce in others improper businesses. You may want to re-verify the translations with others (more knowledgeable!) for the sentence: "they are likely to take upon themselves undue tasks" as the Thai translation and the commentaries interpretting this as inducing on others, not applying to themselves. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:Nina] > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:02 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: translation > > > Dear Christine, Thanks for your kind words. The undue tasks: I used my > Jataka translation and the Thai and some of it is not clear. Here we could > ask Kom: Thai: p. 26, they apply themselves to tasks which are not (their) > business? Mai chai thura, somewhat strange. My Jataka (and > yours): the fool: > binds loads on him that none should bear. The English translation of the > Jataka is sometimes strange. > Undue burdens is better. My guess: he is a fool, he takes upon himself > burdens he cannot cope with. > > op 22-07-2002 11:12 schreef christine_forsyth op Christine: > > > > I wonder if you could clarify the meaning for me of what the ascetic > > Akitti said about Fools ... "they are likely to take upon themselves > > undue tasks" ... 14513 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:55am Subject: mindfulness do you ever look at your watch and immediately forget the time, so you look again? and still it doesn't register, so you have to look a third time. And then someone asks you what time it is, and you actually have to look at your watch for the fourth time in 3 minutes? Don't you feel stupid? - george carlin 14514 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:55am Subject: ADL ch. 17 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 17 (2) When we study the Abhidhamma we should keep in mind the purpose of the Buddha's teachings: the eradication of defilements through the wisdom which realizes phenomena appearing through the six doors as they are. Through this method there will be an end to the cycle of birth and death. We should remember that the Abhidhamma is not a theoretical textbook but an exposition of realities appearing in daily life. We learn about nama and rupa; we learn about cittas which each have their own function in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process. There are sense-door processes and mind-door processes time and again, and objects are experienced during these processes of citta. If there is awareness of characteristics of nama and rupa when they appear, the panna is developed which can eradicate defilements. This kind of wisdom is deeper than any kind of theoretical knowledge. Nama and rupa which arise and fall away are conditioned realities, they arise because of different conditions. Through the study of the Abhidhamma we learn about different conditions for nama and rupa. Each reality which arises is dependent on several conditions. For instance, seeing is vipaka, produced by kamma. Visible object conditions seeing by being its object (arammana). lf there is no visible object there cannot be seeing. Eye-sense, the kind of rupa in the eye (pasada-rupa) which is able to receive visible object, is another condition for seeing. The rupa which is eye-sense can be the door (in Pali : dvara) for seeing. A door or 'dvara' is the means through which citta experiences an object. There is eye-sense arising and falling away all the time; throughout our life it is produced by kamma. However, eye-sense is not a door all the time, because there is not all the time the experience of visible object. Eye-sense is a door only when citta experiences visible object. It is the same with the pasada-rupas which are the other sense-organs. They are doors only when they are the means through which citta experiences an object. The eye-door is the means through which citta experiences visible object. Not only the cittas which are cakkhu-dvaravajjana-citta (eye-door-adverting-consciousness) and cakkhu-vinnana (seeing-consciousness) experience the object through the eye-door; the other cittas of that process, which are sampaticchana-citta (receiving-consciousness), santirana-citta (investigating-consciousness), votthapana-citta (determining- consciousness), the javana-cittas and the tadarammana-cittas are also dependent on the same door, in order to experience the object. After the rupa which is experienced by these cittas has fallen away, the object can be experienced through the mind-door (mano-dvara). Cittas arising in a process which experience an object through one of the six doors are vithi-cittas (vithi means: way, course, process). Vithi-cittas are named after the door through which they experience an object. For example, the cittas which experience an object through the eye-door are called cakkhu-dvara-vithi-cittas (cakkhu-dvara means eye-door); the cittas which experience an object through the ear-door (sota-dvara) are called sota-dvara-vithi-cittas; the cittas which experience an object through the mind-door (mano-dvara) are called mano-dvara-vithi-cittas. In between the different processes of citta there have to be bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum). Bhavanga-cittas are not vithi-cittas. They are not part of the process of cittas experiencing objects which time and again throughout our life experiencing on the six doors. They experience an object without being dependent on any doorway. As we have seen (Ch. 15), the patisandhi-citta, the bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta of one life experience the same object as the last javana-cittas which arose before the cuti-citta of the previous life. The patisandhi-citta, the bhavanga-citta and the cuti-citta are vithi-vimutti-cittas (vithi-vimutti means: process-freed); thus, they are different from the cittas arising in sense-door processes and mind-door processes. 14515 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - > > > It happens that the role of right concentration is part of > what > > is > > > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the > Anguttara > > > Nikaya > > > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). > Diagramatically, > > what is said there is the following: > > > > > > Sense control > > > -> > > > Virtue > > > -> > > > Right concentration > > > -> > > > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > > > -> > > > Revulsion and dispassion > > > -> > > > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > > > > > The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite > > pivotal. ... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would, indeed, agree with that. In fact, I picture bhavana (in > its > general sense) as proceeding rather like an ever-widening spiral, so > that > "later" factors developed in an interior portion of the spiral are > conditions > for "early" factors developed in more exterior portions (if you can > envisage > what I mean). This sutta happens to display certain basic > conditionalities. > I think it is important in that it shows the fundamental role that right > > concentration plays. It shows it as a condition for the arising of > liberative > wisdom, and, by doing so, it may serve as a cautionary note for any > folks who > might happen to downplay the importance of concentration at that > formative > stage of practice. No argument from me on this, Howard. Just a slight reservation about overemphasising the role of concentration or against equating it with samatha. > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before > > Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before > > virtue. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That would be a great error. On that basis, one could never get > started! ;-) This is exactly my point with regard to spiral development. > A > degree of sense control leads to a degree of virtue, ..., leads to a > degree > of wisdom, leads, yet again, to a further degree of sense control, etc, > around and around, wider and wider. > --------------------------------------------------- Yes. Momentary occurrences of each are possible, I think. Jon 14516 From: Num Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:48am Subject: Patisambhidamagga 3 Path of Discrimination / Patisambhidamagga #3 Dear Nina and all. Let me first say happy asalahapuja day, the day that the Buddha gave out his first teaching, dhammacakkapavattana sutta. I am still figuring out how best to report the PTSM session. At this point, I will put in the matika and then brief the atthakatha and stress on the part that I think it’s crucial. I just got my computer back, so this PTSM summary will be somewhat long. Book #1 is matika and its commentary. There are 73 different levels of n~ana. This part is dealing with each n~ana’s definition and its tipitaka references. A.Supee and A.Sujin stressed that each (ariyan) person has different accumulation and it’s not necessary that he/she attained all n~ana. Ven.Sariputta explained this sutta in explicit detail to cover all possible n~ana. For example there are 6 n~anas that can be attained only by the Buddha. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mahavagga, matika and atthakathan~a_n.akathamatika. 1) Sutamayan~a_n.a (suta: listening, maya: attain, success, nana: knowledge) Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana. Atthakatah: Knowledge attained through listening (sutamayan~a_n.a). Suta here refers to teaching of the Buddha. Knowledge attained by listening to the teaching is sutamayan~ana. It can also refer associated dhamma of listening for example phassa. Knowledge in associated dhamma of listening is sutamayan~ana. Then the commentary gives the definition of knowledge (n~ana). <> A.Sujin stressed on the importance of listening and the knowledge at the listening level. 2) Silamayan~ana Matika: Knowledge in listening to dhamma and then restrain is silaman~ana. Atthakatha: Knowledge attained through restrain. (silamayan~ana). Sangvara (restraint) factors: pat.imokkha, sati, n~ana, khanti, and viriya. There are many kinds and level of sila, but all silas has restrain as there characteristic. Getting rid of one who is unrestrained, or having no adverse effect as its function. Cleanness as its manifestation, and having shame (hiri) and fear of blame (ottappa) as its proximate cause. Knowledge which accompanies (sampayutta) by sila is silamayan~ana. Reflecting on adverse effects of unrestraint, reflecting on benefit of restraint, reflecting on purity of restraint, and reflecting the cleanness attained from restraint are parts of silamayan~ana. 3) Samadhibhavanamayan~na Matika: Knowledge in restraint and then concentrate is bhavanamayan~ana. Atthakatha: Samadhibhavanamayan~na. Knowledge of the one who contains in restraint and precepts (sila), then focus on single point with the ability of upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi, knowledge in samadhicitta, or associated with samadhicitta. 4) Dhammat.hitin~ana (thiti:sustain) Matika: Knowledge in discernment of conditions is dhammathitinana. Atthakatha: Synonym of this nana is paccayapariggaye panna. Thiti means sustain. Dhamma here means all sankharadhamma, dhatu, sabhava: kusaladhamma, akusaladhamma and abayakatadhamma. Dhamma or dhatu or paccayupannadhamma called dhamma because it is being arisen sustained by its conditions. Knowing by discernment of each dhamma’s conditions, is dhammathitinana. ( atthakatha then says dhammathitinana is equal to namarupaparichedanana plus paccayapariggayanana in 16 nanas. The atthakatha then stresses on the importance of listening to the Buddha teaching. It mentions “no being†(nissattata). There is dhamma that exists very briefly, then changes and gone (vikara). The atthakatha then raises the point why this nana is not being called samatha-paccayapariyanana (knowledge in discernment of conditions by one-pointed mind). The atthakatha says because samatha and vipassana are paired dhammas (yuganaddhadhamma). It can be said that when one sees clearly (vipassana), one’s mind is one-pointed, or when one’s mind is one-pointed, he/she sees clearly. The atthakatha then continues with “as long as magga dose not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and make samadhi and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep on trying.†<< A.Supee pointed out that samatha/samadhi in 8 magga-factor refers to 3 magga factors: sammasati, sammavayama, and sammasamadhi (samathisikkha). Vipassana in 8 magga-factor refers to sammasankappa, and sammadithti (pannasikkha). I also asked him a question why the tipitaka here put nana is stepwise manner: suta-, sila, samadhibhavana, and the dhammathitinana, is it a stepwise instruction? He said this manner of expounding is an explicit manner. It means to cover every different accumulation, or person. Every patisambhida person (refer only to the ariyan person) has different accumulation. One may attain both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without attaining nana ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing dhamma, not jhana and vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all in his teaching. >> Best wishes. Num 14517 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class Rob M Hello and welcome to the list from me. I have been following your posts with great interest. It is most unexpected to find someone from a non-Buddhist background with such a keen interest in the Abhidhamma, teaching to a Buddhist community! I think you are doing a great job with your classes, and I am amazed at the energy you seem to have to put into this. I particularly appreciate the way you regard the abhidhamma as something that has relevance to daily life, in other words, as part an parcel of the teachings as a whole. You say: > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > life, drive people to action. I think this is admirable. I would only add that, in addition to encouraging people to action, your objective is, I am sure, also to encourage the development of understanding. As you know, the quality of any action is determined by the quality of the accompanying citta. The key to developing any kusala quality (such as metta) is in being able to distinguish moments of that quality from moments that are not but which may seem like it. This of course requires a level of understanding; unfortunately for us all, sincerely wanting, intending to have more kusala is not a sufficient condition for its arising. One of the great things about the Abhidhamma is that it helps make us more aware of the subtle distinctions between different realities, and the very precise conditions necessary for their arising, so that in daily life we are not so inclined to take for kusala what in fact is akusala. As you will have realised, not all aspects of the abhidhamma lend themselves to an 'action-oriented' approach! Think of some of the universals such as contact, ekaggata. These accompany each an every moment of consciousness (so what action is there to be done?!), yet as individual dhammas they may never be apparent to us in the course of a lifetime. But understanding at a theoretical level something about their characteristic and function is nevertheless of great benefit to the development of understanding. Good luck with your continued studies and teaching, and I hope you find your time here useful. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi all, > > In a recent posting, Nina wrote, "Rob M, It may be a good idea if > you indicate each time about what subject you will be talking next > for your group. It gives us the opportunity to consider this subject > also and in this way we can all share, it would be very useful." > > This is great for me (and the students!). > > Here is a bit of background to put things into context. > > The Vihara runs a Sunday School. I suspect that there must be close > to 1000 kids registered, but not all show up each week. Some of the > parents want to take classes as well on Sunday mornings while their > kids are occupied. There is a one-year "Introduction to Buddhism" > course for adults. After the introductory course, many of the adults > follow this up with Abhidhamma classes the following year. This is > the path that I took. > > For four years, I studied Abhidhamma under Brother Teo. He really > knows his stuff. In January 2002, I voluntered to be Bro. > Teo's "apprentice" and take over the first 75 minutes of class. > After a brief break, Bro. Teo then teaches for 75 minutes followed > by another brief break and Vipassana mediation led by Bro. Teo. > > In his part of the class, Bro. Teo has somebody read a section from > ADL and then he gives more background information. After seven > months, we are just now on Chapter 4. For my portion of the class, I > want to put more focus on the "in daily life" aspect of Abhidhamma. > I try to focus on "relevance" and "action", leaving the job of > teaching the more theoretical stuff to Bro. Teo. I am interested in > the theoretical stuff, but Bro. Teo is better at it than I am. > > For the past few months, I have been going through the cetasikas, > drawing heavily on Nina's book, "Cetasikas". I am finished with the > akusala cetasikas and am now doing the universal kusala cetasikas. > Each week, I take one cetasika and start with the definition > (characteristic, function, manifestation, proximate cause). I then > summarize the relevant chapter from Nina's book. I then summarize > practical points from other materials downloaded from the Internet. > > For example, I recently talked on Alobha and then summarized Bhikkhu > Bodhi's book "Dana". Each week, I prepare class notes in bullet form > (typically one page) which is distributed. I also summarize the > stuff that I download from the Internet and hand it out as well. > Bro. Teo reviews all of my material before I distribute it. In the > past seven months, I have prepared more than 100 pages of handouts. > I make 75 copies of each handout and they all get used up. By the > end of 2002, I will have 150 - 200 pages of handouts and I will get > them printed up as "class notes" for next year. > > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > life, drive people to action. This is where I am hoping to get help > from this group. I have lots of reference books (I recently picked > up more than 50 books/booklets on a trip to Colombo). What I am > looking for are ways of making the material come alive to a non- > academic group of parents. > > The class schedule for the next few weeks is as follows: > Jul 21 - Sangdikha Dana (no class) > Jul 28 - Tatramajjhattata / six pairs > Aug 4 - Adosa (Khanti + Metta) > Aug 11 - I will probably be on vacation > Aug 18 - Start the wholesome occasional cetasikas (Vaci-duccarita > Virati - abstinence from wrong speech ) > Aug 25 - Kaya-duccarita Virati (Abstinence from Wrong Action) > > I am not sure that I can fill up a full 75 minutes of motivational > talk on Tatramajjhattata / six pairs on July 28. My "plan B" is to > bring in a monk for a portion of my time to discuss the process of > becoming a monk and describe a monk's daily life. Unfortunately, I > can't use this "get out of jail free card" more than once, so I have > to make sure that I have a full plate of materials for future > classes. > > Metta is a farily easy topic to make relevant to people's lives, but > I would be happy to start collecting ideas on how to make the three > abstinences more interesting. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14518 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I wish I had the time to compare Patanjali's yoga sutras with the noble eightfold path. At present I don't. While the discernment of anatta is at least explicitly unique to Buddhism, there are many other aspects of practice that seem to be similar or parallel. Since samatha and vipassana, as well as various samadhis/jhanas, focussing on the nature of the mind, and discerning realities occur in both; I would say they have some path-goals in common. Where they may diverge, one would of course go further and continue on the Buddhist path. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To say there are many similarities (or, as I think you are saying, many *apparent* simlarities), between 1 set of teachings and another doesn't seem to be saying a lot! But let me put the question another way. Is it in your view possible that there exists a teaching other than yoga that aspires to exactly the same goal as and which, if practised, brings exactly the same results as yoga (and yet is not simply yoga under another name)? Jon 14519 From: Num Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:58am Subject: typo:PTSM 3 Last two sentences of PTSM 3: <<...One may attain both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without attaining NANA ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing dhamma,not jhana and vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all in his teaching. >> Change NANA to JHANA : <<...One may attain both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without attaining JHANA ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing dhamma, not jhana and vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all in his teaching. >> Sorry, it's my ADHD trait ;P. Num 14520 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 0:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > I wish I had the time to compare Patanjali's yoga sutras with the noble > eightfold path. At present I don't. While the discernment of anatta is > at least explicitly unique to Buddhism, there are many other aspects of > practice that seem to be similar or parallel. Since samatha and > vipassana, as well as various samadhis/jhanas, focussing on the nature of > the mind, and discerning realities occur in both; I would say they have > some path-goals in common. Where they may diverge, one would of course go > further and continue on the Buddhist path. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > To say there are many similarities (or, as I think you are saying, many > *apparent* simlarities), between 1 set of teachings and another doesn't > seem to be saying a lot! But let me put the question another way. Is it > in your view possible that there exists a teaching other than yoga that > aspires to exactly the same goal as and which, if practised, brings > exactly the same results as yoga (and yet is not simply yoga under another > name)? > > Jon Among other psychophysical disciplines that come out of spiritual tradition, there are some things in common with yoga and some that diverge. For instance, t'ai chi and yoga both have techniques that increase circulation of prana/ch'i; but they do it in different ways. They both have the overall goal to spiritualize both the body and mind; they both have a set of postures through which the spiritual energy and awareness is brought into the body. Yoga has stretch which not only makes the body more flexible and open, but opens up of the nadis [psychic nerve passageways] as well; T'ai Chi opens the psychic nerve passageways without a lot of stretching. Taoist standing meditation aims towards a peaceful state in which the self is de-emphasized; Buddhist meditation also takes attention off the self. Buddha may well have taken the benefits of seclusion and simple living from the ascetics; sitting posture and perhaps breathing meditation from the yogis; he may have mirrored the eightfold ashtanga yoga path in his eightfold path, while covering a much different series of elements. I think that like the genius he was, Buddha both took and transcended elements of the spiritual culture of his time, and in an evolved form brought them to the level of supreme wisdom and supreme vehicle. To see the evolutionary connections between systems is not to undermine Buddha's teaching; it is to see the way in which world, spiritual culture, and Buddha may interact, and perhaps give a context for understanding, which, living at a much later time, we may not easily have. Robert 14521 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 0:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/17/02 9:48:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > > > > Howard > > > > Here's something else we manage to agree on ;-)) : > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of > > that very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see > > them differently Accumulations! > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Very true indeed. > > > > However, your earlier comments in the same post have me puzzled. Just > > when I thought I was beginning to get a handle on phenomenalism, you post > > something that suggests it is equated with emptiness (or so it seems to > > me). You said: > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Yes, indeed, that is the part [Jon: i.e., the part that supports > > the phenomenalist approach]. That part, as I see it, points out the > > "emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out > > he "emptiness of the experiencer". > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > I'm afraid I cannot see what the 'emptiness' of the presently arising > > matter has to do with the phenomenalist approach, which I had gathered to > > be essentially the assertion that only what is being experienced at the > > present moment actually exists. > > > > Since the subject continues to come up, I hope you won't mind my asking > > you to make the connection. Thanks. > > > > Jon > > > =========================== > The phenomenalist relevance to emptiness is only a part of the story. > It is the sense that in the seen, there is *only* the seen, *merely* the > seen, i.e., the visual image, and not some "thing out there" which is seen. > The "experienced" (i.e., the object) is empty from the phenomenalist > perspective, and I also believe from the Buddhist (especially the > Abhidhammist) perspective, in the sense that it is not an object in the > conventional sense existing "out there" independent of being known, but > rather, exists only in being the object of a citta - that is, its existence > is interdependent with the knowing of it. This type of dependency is one > aspect of the emptiness of the object, the other being its dependence on > previous conditions. The object, arammana, is dependent on the subject, > citta, and that dependency, that lack of independent status, is part of the > "emptiness" of the object. Similarly, the knowing citta is dependent on the > known aramanna, so that the subject lacks independent status, depending as it > does on the associated object. Again of course, that is not the only reason > for the emptiness of the citta - the citta (as well as its object) arises due > to previous conditions, most especially due to mental formations conditioned > by avijja. > There are no trees "out there", there are just mind-constructs that > *appear* to us as trees out there. But also, there is no hardness, nor > roughness, nor greenness and brownness, nor trunk-shape, nor leaf-shapes "out > there". There are just these paramattha-dhamma aramannas arising > interdependently with cittas, mutually and simultaneously conditioning each > other by co-occurrence (and also conditioned by previous states), and all > empty (i.e., lacking independent status, lacking self) due to that > conditioning. The specific conditionality that is the phenomenalist aspect is > that all of "this" is an internal stream of arisings, each an interdependent > vi~n~nana/namarupa (or citta/aramanna) pair. > > With metta, > Howard Howard, A possibly spurious question, but interested in your answer anyway: If there is no 'outside' phenomenon, what is the meaning of saying they are 'internal'? In other words, where, or in what faculty, do they take place; if there are no external environments, objects, senses, etc.? And how are we having this conversation? Best, Robert Ep. 14522 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Howard > ... ... ... > > As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a > > translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'. According to the > > dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down > > (as given in both PED and CPED). If cankamana is the original, then the > > 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss. This is > > perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on > a > > prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which > the > > translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation'). > > Jon, > Could you tell me the difference between seated contemplation and sitting > meditation? Those seem pretty similar to me. > > Robert Ep. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > I didn't intend to draw any particular distinction. It was more a case of > wanting to avoid using 'meditation', because of the different things it > means to different people. I've since realised that 'seated > contemplation' probably suffers from the same shortcoming, so I am now > using 'sitting', following Bh Bodhi's translation in 'Numerical Discourses > of the Buddha'. > > Jon I see. It seemed at the time that you were challenging the translation of 'meditation' rather than 'contemplation'; I take it this is not what you meant, but instead you were only challenging the idea that the 'walking' was meant to be a meditation, rather than merely a physical break. On that point, you appear to be saying that the tradition of walking meditation is a mistake, based on faulty understanding, or perhaps translation, and that the entire tradition of walking meditation, which spans the breadth of both Theravadan and Mahayana meditation practices, is in error. Do you have any specific statements from Suttas that this stems from? Do you have reason to doubt that walking meditation is a valid practice according to the Buddha? Best, Robert Ep. 14523 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:32pm Subject: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) Dear Jon, I think there is some danger in thinking that something that has not been explicitly mentioned is in fact the case, based on negative data, that is, a lack of data. One may use deductive reasoning to conclude that since meditation is not specifically mentioned in the Sutta below, that it is not meant to be utilized as a specialized way of realizing mindfulness. I would however say that this was saying that the suspect was guilty of murder because no witness came forward to say that he was not innocent. The reason that this is not an acceptable way of proving a crime is because it leaves open all the other possibilities that have also not been mentioned. To my mind, the litany below is on a particular subject: the practice of mindfulness throughout all of the activities of daily life. It is obviously an important subject and an important practice, and the Buddha makes this clear by outlining all the ways and conditions under which mindfulness can be practiced. Does this rule out the practice of meditation as a specialized practice that takes its place as a perfect complement to the daily living practice? Not at all. This is in no way implied, and there is no reason why the two would not coexist. I would even presume that this Sutta would be for both monks when they are going about their business and for lay people in their daily life; but the specialized instructions on meditation would be more appropriate for monks and might very well have a special Sutta reserved for it which would not be particularly promoted to lay people who do not have a lifestyle of meditative discipline. In fact, we do have a Sutta, one of the two most popular ones in the Pali Canon, which does exactly this: gives a strong set of instructions for meditation, based in breathing meditation and covering the way in which the Four Foundations of Mindfulness are uncovered through breathing meditation, that is of course: the Anapanasati Sutta - the Sutta of Mindfulness of the Breathing. Now if the Buddha devotes the Sutta you have quoted to all manner of positions and activities in which mindfulness may be practiced, but devotes an entire Sutta to mindfulness of the breathing in meditation; how do you logically conclude as you do that there is no added weight given to breathing meditation as a vehicle of mindfulness compared with all the other objects, positions and ways in which mindfulness may be practiced? It seems to me that you are not taking account of the evidence given by your most, perhaps only, reliable witness, the Buddha himself. Here is what he says, for instance, which has already been quoted on dsg recently, but is worthy of repetition in this discussion: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. (Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing) "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? ... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The Sutta then goes on for pages and pages of instruction on breathing meditation. I foind it hard to understand how this does not make the Buddha's point obvious, that breathing meditation is one of the great vehicles of mindfulness, recommended and detailed by him. It was in this prized community where he complimented the monks' extraordinary strides and their techniques. He mentions a number of other practices in an introductory manner, but why does he stop and focus on the breathing meditation as the most important of these? Why does he mention it last and accord all that detail to this practice? It is not a coincidence and it is clear that this is the practice among the others mentioned that the Buddha felt was the highest and most efficacious vehicle. You say that the Buddha did not emphasize meditation in general or breathing meditation in particular, and that it is given either no weight or equal weight to all other forms of the development of discernment. In fact you often say that there should be no special effort made to practice discernment formally, but only in daily living. I would like to know what role you think the anapanasati sutta plays, and why it was written, if not to emphasize the practice of breathing meditation - one of the few special practices, if I am correct, that merits its own Sutta. Best, Robert Ep ======================= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > I would think that since walking, sitting and lying down are the three > main positions of life, that there would be specialized practices of one > kind or another for practicing mindfulness during these basic phases of > physical living. > It makes sense to me. > > Robert Ep. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Well, if mindfulness was a matter of a particular 'practice to be done', > then I would be inclined to agree with you. But I happen to believe it's > not, and I see some significance in the fact that there is an absence of > walking-, sitting and lying down-practices in the texts. > > To my reading of the texts, the Buddha in fact positively indicates that > there is no distinction to be drawn as to posture, time of day, nature of > activity as far as the development of insight is concerned. I'm sure you > are already familiar with the passages from the Satipatthana Sutta copied > below, but they bear repeating. > > Jon > > Satipatthana Sutta > [The Modes of Deportment] > "And further, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when > he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he > understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am > lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. ..." > > [The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension] > "And further, a bhikkhu, > -- in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising > clear comprehension; > -- in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ... > -- in bending and in stretching, ... > -- in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, > ... > -- in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, ... > -- in defecating and in urinating, ... > -- in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in > sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person > practising clear comprehension." 14524 From: kkyaw88 Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:49pm Subject: Meditation ― the Science of Awareness Meditation ― the Science of Awareness What is the difference between science, art and religion? Science discovers, art invents, religion does both. The true religion discovers; the pseudo-religion invents. And down the ages it is the pseudo-religion that has prevailed over the human mind. It is nothing but fiction. It is closer to art, and absolutely against science. That's why there has never been a conflict between art and religion. They were, deep down, doing the same thing. Art was inventing objectively, and the so-called religion was inventing subjectively. They could join together very easily because their game was the same. And they joined hands all over the world. Art served the so-called religion for centuries. The beautiful churches, synagogues, temples ― for thousands of years art was doing nothing but serving religion. If you see the temples of Khajuraho in India.... Once there were one thousand temples in that place; now only ruins are there, but twenty or thirty temples are still intact, have survived. Just to see one temple you will need the whole day. It is so full of art, every nook and corner. It must have taken hundreds of years for thousands of sculptors to make one temple. You cannot find a single inch of space in the whole temple which has not been artistically created. One temple has thousands of statues on the outside of the temple, and that is the same about the remaining other thirty, and the same must have been true about the ruins of one thousand temples. Even in the ruins you can find treasures of art. I don't think there has ever been such beauty created out of stone anywhere else in the world. The structure of every temple is almost the same. On the outer side of the temple, the outer wall, there are what are called "mithun statues" ― men and women naked, loving, making love, in all the possible postures one can imagine or dream of. The only posture that is missing is known in India as the missionary posture ― man on top of woman: only that is missing ― that was brought by Christian missionaries. Otherwise the whole idea, to the Indian mind, looked ugly ― that the man should be on top of the woman. Seems to be unfair. The woman is more fragile, and this beast is on top of the beauty. No, Indians have never thought of that posture as human. In India it is known as the missionary posture because the first time they saw it, it was Christian missionaries in that posture; otherwise they had no idea that this could be done. But, except that, you will find all kinds of postures, because in India sexology has existed at least for five thousand years. The oldest sexual scripture is five thousand years old ― Vatsyayana's Kamasutras. And in the time of Vatsyayana, writing sutras on sex ― kama means sex ― maxims for sex, guidelines for sex, was not thought to be a bad act; Vatsyayana is respected as one of the great seers of India, and it is said that only a seer like Vatsyayana could have given those beautiful sutras. They reveal the intricacies and the mysteries of the energy of sex, and how it can be transformed. These temples in Khajuraho have, on the outer side, beautiful women, beautiful men, and all in love postures. Inside there are no love postures. Inside you will find the temple empty, not even a statue of God. The idea is that unless you pass through your sexuality with full awareness, in all its phases, in all its dimensions ― unless you come to a point when sex has no meaning for you...only then you enter the temple. Otherwise you are outside the temple, your interest is there. So that was a symbol that if you are still interested in sex, then the temple is not for you. But the message is not against sex; it is the outer wall of the temple, the temple is made of it, and you have to pass through the door and go beyond. And the beyond is nothing but utter emptiness. How many artists, craftsmen, sculptors, were employed to create one thousand temples, a whole city of temples, how many years it took! ― and this is not only one place: there is Ajanta, a group of caves which Buddhists created. The whole mountain...for miles they have carved caves inside the mountain. And inside the caves you will find tremendous work of art, everything is beautiful. Buddha's whole life in stone.... The first cave you enter, you find the birth of Buddha. And those are not small caves; each cave is at least four times bigger than this room. They have been carved in solid stone. The whole life of Buddha slowly unfolds in each cave, and in the last cave Buddha is sleeping. The statue must be as long as this room. It is the last moment of his life, when he asked his disciples, "If you have to ask any questions, ask me; otherwise I am going into eternal sleep ― forever." He has not even a pillow, just his hand used as a pillow. But such a huge statue, and so beautiful! There are the Ellora caves, again carved into the mountains. There are Hindu temples in Jagganath Puri, in Konarak. You cannot imagine for centuries what art has been doing. The beautiful cathedrals of Europe, and all the great artists...Michelangelo.... What were these people doing? They were serving religion. There was never a conflict anywhere in the world between religion and art. To me that signifies that the religion was pseudo; both were fictitious. There was no intrinsic opposition, they were moving in the same line of invention. Of course the artist was doing a far more authentic job, far more sincere than the priest, because what he was inventing was absolute fiction. There was no ground for it. His God was fiction, his heaven and hell were fiction. And these fictions have to be according to different people, where the religion existed. For example, in Tibet you can't have the same kind of heaven as in India, obviously. India is a hot country, so hot that the heaven has to be air-conditioned. Of course the word was not available at the time, but the description is absolutely of air-conditioning. It says, "Twenty-four hours a day cool air, fresh, fragrant, like spring. It is never summer, it is never the rainy season. It is never cold winter; just a cool ― not cold, but cool ― atmosphere all the year round. And it is always spring." But the Tibetan priest cannot accept it. They are so tortured by cold, their heaven is warm, heated ― it is never cold. They don't even mention cool, because to the people of Tibet even cool is not acceptable. It has to be warm. In Tibetan scriptures it says, "You must take at least one bath per year." When the Dalai Lama and his people started escaping from Tibet to India, many of them came to see me. Habits die hard: they were not taking baths or showers, even in India, and they were using the same kind of clothes that they were using in Tibet. I had to tell them, "I am very allergic to smells, so you sit in the other corner of the room, unless you learn how to clean your body and change your clothes every day." They said, "Every day! But the religious scriptures say once a year is enough!" It is going to be a different fiction in different countries. In Mohammedan countries, homosexuality was very prevalent ― is still prevalent. Strange, but it shows a significant fact about the human mind. The greatest punishment also is for a homosexual act if you are found out. You just have to be beheaded; there is no lesser punishment for it. Still it is the most prevalent thing, so prevalent that in the Koran the provision is made in heaven for the great religious sages: beautiful women are available, beautiful boys are also available. These are all fictions suiting the particular mind, climate, country, having no foundation in reality. Reality has not to be invented, it has to be discovered. It is already there. Hence science discovers, and true religion also discovers. But up to now, the religions that have been in existence in the world ― Christianity, Judaism, Mohammedanism, Hinduism ― they never felt any conflict with art, but they all felt tremendous antagonism towards science. Nobody has noted the fact. Why are they not against art, and why are they against science? ― because with art they can find some similarity. They can use art but they cannot use science, and they don't find the basic similarity. In fact they find science is doing just the opposite. They are inventing, they are creating something imaginary; science's whole work is to uncover the true, the real, that which is. Now, if science goes on succeeding, then the pseudo-religion becomes afraid, because the fiction will not be able to stand in front of truth. There will be no possibility of its winning ― even standing before truth is impossible. I have loved this story very much. One day darkness approached God and said, "I have never done any wrong to the sun, but it goes on torturing me. Wherever I go, it reaches, and I have to escape from there. I cannot even rest. I don't want to complain, but enough is enough. How long is it going to go on? And I am absolutely innocent. I have not done anything against the sun, I have not said anything against the sun. This is for the first time I am talking about it." God immediately ordered that the sun should be called. The sun was called, and God asked him, "Why are you torturing and bothering darkness?" The sun said, "What are you talking about? I have never met anything called darkness." And God looked around: where had the darkness gone? It had disappeared. The sun said, "Whenever you can manage to bring darkness in front of me, I am ready to apologize or whatsoever you say. But I don't know...perhaps without knowing, in unawareness I may have hurt him. But at least let me see the person ― the person who is complaining against me." The story says that the file of the case against the sun by darkness is still lying there. God has not been able to bring both sides together in front of him. Sometimes he succeeds and darkness comes; sometimes he succeeds and sun comes; but he has not been able to bring both together, and unless both are present the case cannot be decided. How can darkness come to face the sun? ― because darkness has no existence, it is just absence of light. So where the presence of light is, the absence cannot exist, cannot stand. And that is what pseudo-religion has been doing: creating fictions, exploiting people ― their imagination, their fear, their greed, their misery, their suffering, their poverty, everything. But the moment science started discovering things every religion became very alert, and ready to stop science in every possible way, because if truth is revealed, the untruth dies by itself; there is no need to kill it. It simply disappears. Hence I say to you that now is the time for the first religion to happen. For three hundred years the pseudo-religions have been fighting against science. Now they are tired, fed up, and know perfectly well that science is going to win; it has already won. So the old religions have lost their ground. You have to understand it. What you see in the churches and in the synagogues and in the mosques and in the temples, is the dead body of the religion that once was alive. It is only a corpse. But they are pretending that it is alive, hoping against hope that some miracle is going to happen. But no miracle ever happens. And no miracle is going to happen. Science has taken firm roots. Now, if you want anything in the world to be called religion, then you have to start from ABC, from the very scratch: a religion which is a science, and not a fiction. Just as science discovers in the objective world, outside, religion discovers in the inner world. What science is to the objective existence, religion is to the subjectivity. Their methods are exactly the same. Science calls it observation, religion calls it awareness. Science calls it experiment, religion calls it experience. Science wants you to go into the experiment without any prejudice in your mind, without any belief. You have to be open, available. You are not going to impose anything on reality. You are just going to be available to the reality whatsoever it is, even if it goes against all your ideas. You have to drop those ideas ― but the reality cannot be denied. The scientific endeavor is risking your mind for reality, putting your mind aside for reality. Reality counts, not what you think about it. Your thinking may be right or may be wrong, but the reality will decide it. Your mind is not going to decide what is right and what is wrong. The same is the situation of an authentic religion, a scientific religion. If I am allowed, I would like to describe science as two dimensions, the outer and the inner. The word religion can be dropped. You have two sciences: one, objective science; another, subjective science. And that's what is going to happen; whether you call it a religion or science does not matter ― names don't matter, but the methodology is exactly the same: you should not go in with a belief. No believer is ever going to know the truth. To believe is to miss. You have to put aside your ideology. Howsoever beautiful it looks, howsoever systematic it looks, howsoever philosophical you have made and decorated it, you have to put it aside and see within. That's the whole method of meditation, awareness, watchfulness. Meditation, in short, is putting your mind aside. So the people who say that meditation is a discipline of the mind are absolutely wrong. It is not a discipline of the mind, because if you discipline the mind, it is going to become stronger. It is better to put it aside when it is weaker, undisciplined. Once it is disciplined it is going to give you a tough fight. So it is more difficult for somebody who has been practicing concentration, because concentration is a mind phenomenon. Yes, it gives you a better mind, a disciplined mind, more penetrating. But to put aside this mind will be very difficult. First, you have given it strength, you have given it a certain crystallization. That's what happened to Gurdjieff and his whole school. It was a discipline of the mind. He called it crystallization, a very right word. The ordinary mind is a mess, a chaos. Gurdjieff's discipline gives you a crystallized mind, together, centered. And he was thinking that the more your mind is crystallized, the more you are coming closer to home. There he was wrong. A crystallized mind starts having certain powers. For example, it can read somebody's thoughts, which the ordinary mind cannot do. It cannot read its own thought ― how to read somebody else's thoughts! But crystallization is not easy. It is a difficult and long process ― years of work, work which will look absolutely unnecessary to you, but you have to do it because the teacher says so. For example, Gurdjieff's disciples will be told to dig a trench one mile long, and all the disciples are digging the trench the whole day, and by the evening, Gurdjieff comes to look at it and he says, "Fill it up. Only then will you get food. I should not find it there when I come for my morning walk." Now, absurd...! This man is mad, you will think. He was not mad; he was working very accurately, mathematically. The disciples started filling the trench. The whole day they were digging, the whole day they were thinking, "Why is this being dug?" Now they are thinking, "Why is it being filled again?" And nobody knows ― tomorrow morning he may say, "Dig it again." That man was known to do that. What he is trying to do is to make you not the ordinary weak mind, who needs all kinds of argument, convictions to go into anything...then too, it never goes. He is trying to teach you that you need not bother about why. That is the teacher's job, to think; your job is to do. And if a person goes on this way, year in year out, he strangely finds things happening in himself which have never happened before. For example, you are passing by his side and suddenly he reads your thought. It happened: One of my students, when I was teaching in the university, was very interested in Gurdjieff. So he asked me, "I am not asking whether Gurdjieff is right or wrong. Please just explain to me what the methodology is that Gurdjieff was using, and how I can use it." I said, "If that is so, I can explain to you the method. But l am not responsible for what happens to you then...." He said, "Of course you are not responsible." "...Because you are not giving me even a chance to say whether it is right or wrong; you simply want to know." I said, "Just as a professor, I am telling you this is the method. You practice it. The method is simple. Do anything, for example jogging.... There comes a moment when you feel you cannot jog any more; now, that is the moment you have to jog. And suddenly you will be surprised that if you continue jogging there is a new release of energy...and you were feeling that it was impossible to jog any more." There are three layers of energy. One: the ordinary energy which you use in daily work: eating, walking, working, typing, this and that, just the superficial layer. Underneath is a bigger layer of energy. If, doing anything, you come to the point where the thin top layer is finished, that does not mean that your energy is finished; only the top layer is finished. Then the top layer is saying, "Stop." Don't stop, continue. Soon the second layer is broken open, and becomes available. You were thinking you cannot jog, and now you can jog for hours! Then again a point comes when you feel, "If I go on jogging now, I am going to fall down and die." It is not just tiredness ― it is almost death. First it was tiredness, now it is almost like death. This is the third layer in you, which is vast. If you continue and you say, "Okay, if death comes it is okay, but I am not going to stop," the third layer opens up, and you have never seen such energy in you. That sometimes accidentally happens to you. You are tired. The whole day's work and everything...and suddenly your house catches fire! You were thinking to just jump into bed and forget the whole world...and the house is burning! You forget all about your tiredness. Suddenly you are fresh, young ― as fresh and as young as you have never been, and you are running here and there, and doing all kinds of things ― perhaps it will take the whole night to put the fire out. And you will do it, and you will not feel tired. What has happened? The same thing that Gurdjieff was trying to do methodologically. But once your mind becomes aware of these three layers, with each layer new powers are attached. With the ordinary layer you cannot do much. Scientists say that even the most talented person uses only fifteen percent of his energy ― the most talented, it is not about everybody. An Albert Einstein uses perhaps fifteen percent of his energy. The average, ordinary person never goes above seven percent. Einstein, using fifteen percent, becomes aware of many things which you are not aware of. He lives in a different universe than you live in. His universe is so vast you cannot even imagine it. It was said that while he was alive there were only twelve people in the whole world who understood exactly what the theory of relativity means ― only twelve persons all over the world who understood exactly what he means! But if you use thirty percent of your energy, fifty percent of your energy...who knows what is in store? So this student of mine.... He was a Mohammedan, and Mohammedans are fanatic people, very stubborn; trustworthy, but idiotic. Idiots are always trustworthy because they cannot doubt, they cannot suspect. So what I told him to work upon, he started working on it. He was a woodcutter's son, so I said, "You go with your father and cut wood as much as you can. And when you feel you are going to fall down, you cannot raise the ax again, that is the moment that you have to raise it. Then is the right time to begin work. Up to then it was only superficial. From there Gurdjieff comes in." He did it. One day he came running to me, very much shaken and afraid. He said, "What is happening? I was going in the bus and I just thought...a strange thought, I had never thought such thoughts before. A man was sitting in front of me with his back towards me and I just thought: just by my thinking can he be made to fall from his seat onto the floor of the bus? And the man fell!" He was just thinking this: "Can it happen?" and it happened. He became very frightened, but he thought perhaps it may be a coincidence, so he tried it on another man ― and the other man fell! The driver said, "What is going on?" One man falls for no reason at all, because there is no jerk, no turn. Then another man sitting just falls down, and he is not asleep; his eyes are open. And my student asked those two persons what happened. They said, "We don't know." But he thought that before he came to me, he should try one time more, and better to try on the driver. He tried it on the driver, and he caused a whole accident of the bus in which two persons died and many were injured. Then he came running to me. He said, "What is happening?" Now, unknowingly he had got that energy by which he could project ideas into somebody's head, and they would work. Now his mind was becoming crystallized, coming closer. It was only the second layer. I told him, "Do you want to enter into the third layer? ― because in the third layer you can cause the death of somebody. If you trust yourself, I can give you the method to go into the third. But then, that power ― are you capable of not misusing it?" He said, "No. I am capable of misusing it. And forgive me, I was wrong when from the very beginning I said to you, 'Don't say to me whether Gurdjieff is right or wrong, just give me the method' ― because I was reading the book and I was so impressed. I don't want to go into it. This is dangerous." Concentration, discipline, yoga discipline, other methods of chanting mantras: They all reinforce your mind and make it stronger, capable of using the powers that are in your subconscious, in your unconscious, in your collective unconscious. If you are not aware ― and you are not aware ― this is like giving a sword, a naked sword to a child to play with. Either he is going to hurt himself or kill somebody, but something wrong is going to happen. You cannot conceive that anything good is going to happen out of it. The brahmins in India have used the discipline of the mind for thousands of years to keep the whole country enslaved under them. In India, in five thousand years no revolution has happened. And there were all the possibilities for revolution to happen thousands of times in these years. The brahmins have made one fourth of India untouchable....Those people cannot touch you. Not only can't the people touch you, they are so dirty ― they are suffering from their bad, evil karmas of past life ― that even their shadow falling on you is enough to disturb your existence. You have to take a bath immediately. Do you see the stupid idea? The shadow of a person passing over you has made you dirty. A shadow has no existence! A shadow cannot touch you. A shadow cannot carry any contamination. In India, for thousands of years, one fourth of the country has lived in such slavery that they have to walk with a bell around their neck, just like you put a bell around the neck of a cow or a buffalo, so you know when the cow is coming because the bell goes on ringing. So they had to keep a bell continually ringing, so anybody hearing it can escape, even from their shadow. And at the back they had to attach a long brush, like a tail. That was to go on cleaning the path on which they are traveling, because the shadow is falling there, and the shadow has to be cleaned because some brahmin may come afterwards and walk on the earth where some untouchable, some achhoot ― that is their word ― has passed. Now, what power had these brahmins? They were not kings, they had no armies; they had no temporal power of any kind. But they had a tremendously disciplined mind, which became more and more disciplined with every generation. Alexander the Great remembers it in his memoirs.... He came to India before Jesus Christ, and this was the thing that impressed him the most ― of course he came across thousands of things which impressed him, but this was the thing that impressed him most. He was the disciple of Aristotle. Socrates' disciple was Plato, Plato's disciple was Aristotle, Aristotle's disciple was Alexander the Great. When he was returning after invading India, he remembered that Aristotle had asked him, "When you come back bring the four Vedas, which Hindus think are the only God-written books. And of course they are the ancientmost books in the world, so, God-written or not, they are the ancientmost treasure. Bring the four Vedas with you, I don't want anything else." So he inquired, "Can I find a person who has all the four Vedas?" People said, "Yes, in our village there is a great brahmin scholar ― ancient, very old, perhaps two hundred years old ― and he has all the four Vedas. They are inherited, so there's no fear that anything can be wrong in them. They are thousands of years old ― you can get them from him." Alexander went to the brahmin, asked the old man ― he had never seen such an old man. In fact, he had never seen such a man. The old man looked into his eyes and said, "Okay. Tomorrow morning, as the sun rises, I will give you the four Vedas." Alexander was immensely happy. He said, "Whatsoever you want me to do for you, you have done such a great favor for me...because I was told that 'no brahmin will give you the Vedas. Even if you give your whole empire, no brahmin is going to give you the whole Vedas.' And you have not asked anything." He said, "No. No brahmin asks anything. Whatsoever he wants, he gets. Those who beg, they are not brahmins. You come tomorrow morning and you will see." The whole night Alexander could not sleep. What is going to happen tomorrow morning? What kind of man is he? And what the old man did.... He had four sons: he called all four sons, sat around the home fire, which had been kept alive for thousands of years, burning twenty-four hours a day, day in, day out, year in, year out ― they all sat around that fire, and the father said, "You take, each of you, one Veda. Read one page and drop it into the fire; read another page and drop it into the fire. Before the morning rises you have to finish all the four Vedas." They did what the father said, and by the morning, when Alexander reached there ― and he reached a little early, he was so curious ― he could not understand what he saw. What was happening? They were throwing the last pages into the fire. Alexander said, "What is going on?" He said, "Nothing. You take these, my four sons. These are the four Vedas. This is Rig Veda, this is Yajur Veda, this is Sam Veda, this is Athrva Veda." Alexander said, "But I was asking about the books." He said, "They remember every word. That's what we have been doing the whole night." He asked, "How can a person remember the whole book in one night?" The old brahmin said, "You don't know brahmins. This is our discipline. Our whole discipline is to sharpen the memory to such a stage that once you have read anything, there is no way to forget it." This story came into the hands of another great king, Akbar, a Mohammedan. He could not believe it, because the Vedas are big, voluminous collections. He inquired in his court: "Find somebody who can repeat this incident in front of me." One man stood up and said, "This is nothing. I know a brahmin in my village who can do a thousand times more. This is nothing." The man was called to the court of the great Akbar. And in his court there were scholars of Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian, Prakrit, Pali ― other ancient languages ― because he was very scholarly himself and he wanted the topmost scholars to be around him. There were thirty people who knew thirty different languages. And this was the arrangement that was made: this man who was brought from the village looked like a villager, a simple brahmin.... This was the arrangement, that everybody should keep in his mind one sentence in his own language. So there would be thirty sentences in thirty languages ― and this man knows only one language, Sanskrit, so in those thirty languages Sanskrit was not included. This man will go to the first man; the first man will say the first word of his sentence, and a gong will be struck. Then he will go to the second man who will say his first word, and there will again be a gong. He will go to the thirty people again and again: second round, second word, a gong; third round...until all the sentences are complete. And then he will repeat all the thirty sentences...and he did it. Must have been a great computer! But if computers can do it, why not mind? If mind can create computers...and I have not heard about any computer yet creating a mind. The mind has much more power. You can discipline it in many ways, and the pseudo-religions have developed these methods of concentration. Remember, concentration is not meditation. Because concentration is a discipline of the mind and meditation is putting the mind aside. In fact the English word meditation is not the right word, because in the West nothing like meditation has ever happened. The Sanskrit word is dhyana. The problem was the same when Buddhist monks went to China; they could not find the right word to translate dhyana into Chinese, so they wrote dhyana, which to the Chinese sounded like "zana." Hence the Japanese Zen; it is a transfiguration of the word dhyana. "Meditation" gives again the wrong idea, as if you are meditating upon something ― as if it is an activity ― not much different from concentration. You are concentrating on something, you are contemplating on something, you are meditating on something, but you are always concerned with something. And what dhyana is, is dropping all objects, dropping anything on which you can concentrate, contemplate, meditate; dropping everything, nothing is left ― only the one who was concentrating, only the one who was contemplating. That pure awareness is dhyana. In English there is no right word, so you have to understand that we are using "meditation" for dhyana. Dhyana means a state of being where there is no thought, no object, no dream, no desire, nothing ― just emptiness. In that emptiness you come to know your self. You discover the truth. You discover your subjectivity. It is perfect silence. There are methods to put aside the mind, just as there are methods to discipline the mind. But in the West, and more so in America...because if the West is bad, America is worse. I have been looking at American books ― not now; for four years I have not touched a book. All the books that are best sellers in America are somehow concerned with how to increase your willpower, how to influence people and win friends, how to grow rich, mind over matter...but they are all talking about the discipline of the mind. Certainly if you discipline the mind you are a better competitor, you can fulfill your ambition more easily. You can manipulate people more easily, you can exploit people more easily, you can use others as a means to your end. Friedrich Nietzsche has written a book, Will to Power. That is the very essence of the whole Western effort: will-to-power. Will-to-power needs first you should have willpower. And willpower is another name for your mind discipline, crystallized. No, these methods won't do. You have to learn methods to put the mind aside. It is already too powerful; don't make it more powerful, because you are feeding your own enemy. It is already crystallized. Your school, your college, your university, they are all doing that. After remaining nine years a professor in university, I resigned. I said to the vice-chancellor, "I cannot do this work because this is destroying people." He said, "What do you mean, that this means destroying people? Students love you. They won't allow you to leave. And I don't see on what grounds you are saying that you cannot continue to destroy people." I said, "You will not understand, because although you are born in India, you don't know India. You have been educated in the West" ― he had remained his whole life in the West. "All these books, all these psychologies that I have to teach, I am teaching against myself. I know these are going to do harm to these people. Their minds are already in a bad shape, and now they will become stronger. Their chains will be far stronger, their slavery of the mind will be far stronger." The pseudo-religions depend upon disciplining the mind. The real religion's first work is to put the mind aside. And it is, in a way, very simple. Those disciplines are very difficult. To train the mind for concentration is very difficult, because it goes on revolting, it goes on falling back into its old habits. You pull it again, and it escapes. You bring it again to the subject you were concentrating on and suddenly you find you are thinking of something else, you have forgotten what you are concentrating upon. It is not an easy job. But to put it aside is a very simple thing ― not difficult at all. All that you have to do is to watch. Whatsoever is going on in your mind, don't interfere, don't try to stop it. Do not do anything, because whatsoever you do will become a discipline. So do not do anything at all. Just watch. Watching is not a doing. Just as you watch the sunset or the clouds in the sky or the people passing on the street, watch the traffic of thoughts and dreams, nightmares ― relevant, irrelevant, consistent, inconsistent, anything that is going on. And it is always rush hour. You simply watch; you stand by the side unconcerned. The pseudo-religions don't allow you to remain unconcerned, because, they say, greed is bad. So if a thought of greed comes you jump to prevent it; otherwise you will become greedy. Anger is bad; if an angry thought passes by, you immediately jump ― you have to change it, you have to be kind and compassionate, and you have to love your enemy just like yourself. If something against your neighbor comes up...no, you have to love your neighbor just like yourself. So all the old religions have given you ideas of what is right and what is wrong ― and if the wrong thing is passing by, you certainly have to stop it. You have to interfere, you have to jump in and pull that thing out. You miss the point. That's why I don't say to you what is right and what is wrong. All that I say is: to watch is right; not to watch is wrong. I make it absolutely simplified: Be watchful. It is none of your business ― if greed is passing by, let it pass; if anger is passing by, let it pass. Who are you to interfere? Why are you so much identified with your mind? Why do you start thinking, "I am greedy...I am angry"? There is only a thought of anger passing by. Let it pass; you just watch. There is an ancient story.... A man who has gone out of his town comes back and finds that his house is on fire. It was one of the most beautiful houses in the town, and the man loved the house. Many people were ready to give double price for the house, but he had never agreed for any price, and now it is just burning before his eyes. And thousands of people have gathered, but nothing can be done. The fire has spread so far that even if you try to put it out, nothing will be saved. So he becomes very sad. His son comes running, and whispers something in his ear: "Don't be worried. I sold it yesterday, and at a very good price ― three times.... The offer was so good I could not wait for you. Forgive me." But the father said, "Good, if you have sold it for three times more than the original price of the house." Then the father is also a watcher, with other watchers. Just a moment before he was not a watcher, he was identified. It is the same house, the same fire, everything is the same ― but now he is not concerned. He is enjoying it just as everybody else is enjoying. Then the second son comes running, and he says to the father, "What are you doing? You are smiling ― and the house is on fire?" The father said, "Don't you know, your brother has sold it." He said, "He had talked about selling it, but nothing has been settled yet, and the man is not going to purchase it now." Again, everything changes. Tears which had disappeared, have come back to the father's eyes, his smile is no more there, his heart is beating fast. But the watcher is gone. He is again identified. And then the third son comes, and he says, "That man is a man of his word. I have just come from him. He said, 'It doesn't matter whether the house is burned or not, it is mine. And I am going to pay the price that I have settled for. Neither you knew, nor I knew that the house would catch on fire.'" Again the father is a watcher. The identity is no more there. Actually nothing is changing; just the idea that "I am the owner, I am identified somehow with the house," makes the whole difference. The next moment he feels, "I am not identified. Somebody else has purchased it, I have nothing to do with it; let the house burn." This simple methodology of watching the mind, that you have nothing to do with it.... Most of its thoughts are not yours but from your parents, your teachers, your friends, the books, the movies, the television, the newspapers. Just count how many thoughts are your own, and you will be surprised that not a single thought is your own. All are from other sources, all are borrowed ― either dumped by others on you, or foolishly dumped by yourself upon yourself, but nothing is yours. The mind is there, functioning like a computer; literally it is a bio-computer. You will not get identified with a computer. If the computer gets hot, you won't get hot. If the computer gets angry and starts giving signals in four letter words, you will not be worried. You will see what is wrong, where something is wrong. But you remain detached. Just a small knack...I cannot even call it a method because that makes it heavy; I call it a knack. Just by doing it, one day suddenly you are able to do it. Many times you will fail; it's nothing to be worried about...no loss, it is natural. But just doing it, one day it happens. Once it has happened, once you have even for a single moment become the watcher, you know now how to become the watcher ― the watcher on the hills, far away. And the whole mind is there deep down in the dark valley, and you are not to do anything about it. The most strange thing about the mind is, if you become a watcher it starts disappearing. Just like the light disperses darkness, watchfulness disperses the mind, its thoughts, its whole paraphernalia. So meditation is simply watchfulness, awareness. And that reveals ― it is nothing to do with inventing. It invents nothing; it simply discovers that which is there. And what is there? You enter and you find infinite emptiness, so tremendously beautiful, so silent, so full of light, so fragrant, that you have entered into the kingdom of God. In my words, you have entered into godliness. And once you have been in this space, you come out and you are a totally new person, a new man. Now you have your original face. All masks have disappeared. You will live in the same world, but not in the same way. You will be among the same people but not with the same attitude, and the same approach. You will live like a lotus in water: in the water, but absolutely untouched by water. Religion is the discovery of this lotus flower within. Osho, From Unconsciousness to Consciousness, #19 Copyright © 2002 Osho International Foundation 14525 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Nina Thanks for taking the trouble to check the Thera- Theri-Gatha. It is interesting that you could so easily come up with many instances of enlightenment being attained other than while 'sitting'. It shows I think that understanding of dhammas can be developed at any time, even while doing the most mundane of chores. This bears out what is said in the Satipatthana Sutta about mindfulness and clear comprehension being present at any and all times. Very inspiring. Thanks. Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > you wrote to Howard about meditation in texts and then mentioned the > following: > > op 12-07-2002 15:27 schreef Jonothan Abbott op <>: > And in the > > case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the > > seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts. > > > > If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as > something > > that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting > for > > the purpose. Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries > this > > implication for many readers. > >> Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am > > misinterpreted. I am of course not overlooking the fact that there > were > > many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while > > 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting' > > attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not > 'sitting' > > -- listening to the Buddha's discourses). And among the many monks in > the > > Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most > (but > > not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'. (BTW, I > wonder > > if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work > out > > the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).> end quote. > > N: Very interesting subject, Jon. I took out last night the "Psalms of > the > Brothers and Sisters" and began to look at a few of the Theris who > attained > enlightenment: > > Canto I, no 1, an anonymous sister: her curry burnt in the oven, it > reminded > her of impermanence and she became a non-returner. > no. 17, Dhamma: returning from her alms round she lost her balance and > fell. > This reminded her of the Truth: "all the misery besetting this poor > mortal > frame" and she attained arahatship. > No 23, Citta: she climbed in her old age Vulture's Peak, her bowl > overturned, and she leaned agains a rock. She attained arahatship. > You remember the shady place on top near a rock where we could sit and > rest. > Then we saw A. Sujin being carried up in a chair, Khun Santi was helping > her, because she had some trouble with her leg. > no. 47, Patacara: she had lost chidren and husband. The trickling water > and > the fading light of the lamp reminded her of impermanence and she became > an > arahat. > > I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances > also of > attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of > Dhamma. > But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for > aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of > daily > life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have > so > many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better > use > of them. > Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life, > with appreciation, > Nina. 14526 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. --- Howard wrote: [Nina:] > I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances also > of > attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of Dhamma. > But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for > aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of daily > life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have so > many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better use > of them. > Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life, > with appreciation, > Nina. > ================================ [Howard:] One comes across very similar stories in the Zen tradition, such as someone becoming enlightened after a stone chip sharply hits a bamboo, or a bowl breaks upon falling to the ground. It is like a sudden breeze causing a ripe fruit to fall from the tree. An unripe fruit would not fall even in a typhoon, but a ripe fruit falls easily. Much ripening has to come first, much cultivation.To mix metaphors, the wind is just the final straw to break the camel's back. =============================== I'm not sure what you see as being the wind/final straw in question. From my reading of the Pali texts it seems that the final moment leading to enlightenment is simply more of the same kind of 'effort' and understanding that brought the person to the brink of enlightenment in the first place. In other words, there was not one 'practice' for the lead-up and another (or something else) bringing the final breakthrough, but more and more of the same thing throughout. Jon 14527 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Goggy Many thanks for this info. I'll look the sutta up as soon as I have a chance. Good to see you back after your break. Jon --- goglerr wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: ... > Hello Jon, > So sorry to reply u this late. You see, I was out of town for more > than a week and I just got back today. I'm trying to catch up with > all the messages. > > Well, the sutta is in Anguttara Nikaya, III, 29. It was translated as > alley-walk discourse in the PTS. I find that this translation is not > so good. If u could look up in the Pali text would be better. > > Goglerr 14528 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Howard Thanks for this careful explanation of the phenomenalist position. Without going into every aspect of your post, I do see some major points of departure, the main one of which I mention below. As I understand the teachings, while the present *experience* of hardness is dependent on the co-arising consciousness, the arising of the hardness itself in this sense-sphere is not said to be dependent on that consciousness, but is said to be conditioned by other factors. So while the 2 (nama and rupa) are interdependent as far as being the present moment of experience is concerned, they are not interdependent insofar as their arising in this plane of existence is concerned. Would this in your view mark a distinction between the 2 bodies of teaching? Jon ====================== --- Howard wrote: The phenomenalist relevance to emptiness is only a part of the story. It is the sense that in the seen, there is *only* the seen, *merely* the seen, i.e., the visual image, and not some "thing out there" which is seen. The "experienced" (i.e., the object) is empty from the phenomenalist perspective, and I also believe from the Buddhist (especially the Abhidhammist) perspective, in the sense that it is not an object in the conventional sense existing "out there" independent of being known, but rather, exists only in being the object of a citta - that is, its existence is interdependent with the knowing of it. This type of dependency is one aspect of the emptiness of the object, the other being its dependence on previous conditions. The object, arammana, is dependent on the subject, citta, and that dependency, that lack of independent status, is part of the "emptiness" of the object. Similarly, the knowing citta is dependent on the known aramanna, so that the subject lacks independent status, depending as it does on the associated object. Again of course, that is not the only reason for the emptiness of the citta - the citta (as well as its object) arises due to previous conditions, most especially due to mental formations conditioned by avijja. There are no trees "out there", there are just mind-constructs that *appear* to us as trees out there. But also, there is no hardness, nor roughness, nor greenness and brownness, nor trunk-shape, nor leaf-shapes "out there". There are just these paramattha-dhamma aramannas arising interdependently with cittas, mutually and simultaneously conditioning each other by co-occurrence (and also conditioned by previous states), and all empty (i.e., lacking independent status, lacking self) due to that conditioning. The specific conditionality that is the phenomenalist aspect is that all of "this" is an internal stream of arisings, each an interdependent vi~n~nana/namarupa (or citta/aramanna) pair. With metta, Howard 14529 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/24/02 12:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Buddha may well have taken the benefits of seclusion and simple living from > the > ascetics; sitting posture and perhaps breathing meditation from the yogis; > he may > have mirrored the eightfold ashtanga yoga path in his eightfold path, while > covering a much different series of elements. > > ========================== I'm terrible on history, but I think that the Buddha came before Patanjali. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14530 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/24/02 12:53:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Howard, > A possibly spurious question, but interested in your answer anyway: > > If there is no 'outside' phenomenon, what is the meaning of saying they are > 'internal'? In other words, where, or in what faculty, do they take place; > if > there are no external environments, objects, senses, etc.? > > And how are we having this conversation? > > ============================ It's a good question. There is the seeming of externality, but it is only a seeming. What seem to be "out there" are actually concepts/percepts. What actually are observed are the paramattha dhammas, which, when observed directly, and not as characteristics of "external objects", do not appear as external. As far as how we are having this conversation, my phenomenalism is not a solipsism, but is very close to the "radical empiricism" of William James, in which multiple mindstreams interact, much like the Indra's Net (to steal an image from the Garland Sutra of Mahayana). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14531 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:28pm Subject: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) --- Dear Rob. E., I might have misunderstood your intent but you seemed to be suggesting that anapanasati because it is a popular sutta is the one recommended for all followers including laypeople. This seems different from my reading of the Pali; For example Mahanama - a great layfollower visted the Buddha: "" For those of us living by means of various dwelling places [for the mind], by means of which dwelling place should we live?" "Excellent, Mahanama, excellent! It is fitting for clansmen like you to approach the Tathagata and ask, 'For those of us living by means of various dwelling places [for the mind], by means of which dwelling place should we live?' [.........] ] "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: [.....]' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. [...] "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children. [2] "Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Dhamma, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. [..]" Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Dhamma while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children."endquote http://www.abhidhamma.org/Mahanama.htm So I think that anapanasati wasn't recommended for all. It was for some - especially to the great monks who could develop this (it is the object even the Buddha's take on the eve of their enlightenment- a very superlative object). It is very excellent for those with the accumulations and who live in seclusion, but I don't think the Pali texts say that everyone must develop it. Robert Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > I think there is some danger in thinking that something that has not been > explicitly mentioned is in fact the case, based on negative data, that is, a lack > of data. > > One may use deductive reasoning to conclude that since meditation is not > specifically mentioned in the Sutta below, that it is not meant to be utilized as > a specialized way of realizing mindfulness. I would however say that this was > saying that the suspect was guilty of murder because no witness came forward to > say that he was not innocent. The reason that this is not an acceptable way of > proving a crime is because it leaves open all the other possibilities that have > also not been mentioned. > > To my mind, the litany below is on a particular subject: the practice of > mindfulness throughout all of the activities of daily life. It is obviously an > important subject and an important practice, and the Buddha makes this clear by > outlining all the ways and conditions under which mindfulness can be practiced. > Does this rule out the practice of meditation as a specialized practice that takes > its place as a perfect complement to the daily living practice? Not at all. This > is in no way implied, and there is no reason why the two would not coexist. I > would even presume that this Sutta would be for both monks when they are going > about their business and for lay people in their daily life; but the specialized > instructions on meditation would be more appropriate for monks and might very well > have a special Sutta reserved for it which would not be particularly promoted to > lay people who do not have a lifestyle of meditative discipline. > > In fact, we do have a Sutta, one of the two most popular ones in the Pali Canon, > which does exactly this: gives a strong set of instructions for meditation, based > in breathing meditation and covering the way in which the Four Foundations of > Mindfulness are uncovered through breathing meditation, that is of course: the > Anapanasati Sutta - the Sutta of Mindfulness of the Breathing. Now if the Buddha > devotes the Sutta you have quoted to all manner of positions and activities in > which mindfulness may be practiced, but devotes an entire Sutta to mindfulness of > the breathing in meditation; how do you logically conclude as you do that there is > no added weight given to breathing meditation as a vehicle of mindfulness compared > with all the other objects, positions and ways in which mindfulness may be > practiced? > > It seems to me that you are not taking account of the evidence given by your most, > perhaps only, reliable witness, the Buddha himself. > > Here is what he says, for instance, which has already been quoted on dsg recently, > but is worthy of repetition in this discussion: > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, > of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, > brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of > reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to > their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, > bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. > > (Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing) > > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring > the four frames of reference to their culmination? ... > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > The Sutta then goes on for pages and pages of instruction on breathing meditation. > I foind it hard to understand how this does not make the Buddha's point obvious, > that breathing meditation is one of the great vehicles of mindfulness, recommended > and detailed by him. It was in this prized community where he complimented the > monks' extraordinary strides and their techniques. He mentions a number of other > practices in an introductory manner, but why does he stop and focus on the > breathing meditation as the most important of these? Why does he mention it last > and accord all that detail to this practice? It is not a coincidence and it is > clear that this is the practice among the others mentioned that the Buddha felt > was the highest and most efficacious vehicle. You say that the Buddha did not > emphasize meditation in general or breathing meditation in particular, and that it > is given either no weight or equal weight to all other forms of the development of > discernment. In fact you often say that there should be no special effort made to > practice discernment formally, but only in daily living. > > I would like to know what role you think the anapanasati sutta plays, and why it > was written, if not to emphasize the practice of breathing meditation - one of the > few special practices, if I am correct, that merits its own Sutta. > > Best, > Robert Ep > > ======================= > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > I would think that since walking, sitting and lying down are the three > > main positions of life, that there would be specialized practices of one > > kind or another for practicing mindfulness during these basic phases of > > physical living. > > It makes sense to me. > > > > Robert Ep. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > Well, if mindfulness was a matter of a particular 'practice to be done', > > then I would be inclined to agree with you. But I happen to believe it's > > not, and I see some significance in the fact that there is an absence of > > walking-, sitting and lying down-practices in the texts. > > > > To my reading of the texts, the Buddha in fact positively indicates that > > there is no distinction to be drawn as to posture, time of day, nature of > > activity as far as the development of insight is concerned. I'm sure you > > are already familiar with the passages from the Satipatthana Sutta copied > > below, but they bear repeating. > > > > Jon > > > > Satipatthana Sutta > > [The Modes of Deportment] > > "And further, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when > > he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he > > understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am > > lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. ..." > > > > [The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension] > > "And further, a bhikkhu, > > -- in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising > > clear comprehension; > > -- in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ... > > -- in bending and in stretching, ... > > -- in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, > > ... > > -- in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, ... > > -- in defecating and in urinating, ... > > -- in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in > > sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person > > practising clear comprehension." 14532 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/24/02 5:34:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > Thanks for this careful explanation of the phenomenalist position. > Without going into every aspect of your post, I do see some major points > of departure, the main one of which I mention below. > > As I understand the teachings, while the present *experience* of hardness > is dependent on the co-arising consciousness, the arising of the hardness > itself in this sense-sphere is not said to be dependent on that > consciousness, but is said to be conditioned by other factors. > > So while the 2 (nama and rupa) are interdependent as far as being the > present moment of experience is concerned, they are not interdependent > insofar as their arising in this plane of existence is concerned. > > Would this in your view mark a distinction between the 2 bodies of > teaching? > > Jon > > =================================== It's not that there is a "departure" between the Dhamma and phenomenalism, but rather that there is *much* more to the Dhamma than phenomenalism. As I wrote, "The phenomenalist relevance to emptiness is only a part of the story." (Cittas, arammanas, and cetasikas arise interdependently, but also in dependence on previous conditions.) I see the Dhamma, in part, as an instance of phenomenalism, but that aspect of the Dhamma is just a little piece of it. I know of no other body of thought to come close in breadth, depth and magnificence to the Buddha's Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14533 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:35pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Class Hi Jon, Thanks for your words of encouragement. It seems to come naturally to me and I really do it with joy, so I must have been an Abhidhamma teacher in a previous life. I've already benefited a lot from this group. Nina and others have given ideas and input to help me present the six pairs. I've also started to get feedback on "Metta in Daily Life". You are correct that I can't link everyhting to action. However, I ry to make it interesting and relevant to non-academic laypeople. The objective is panna. Bro. Teo, who takes a more technical, theoretical approach, and I seem to have complementary styles. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M > > Hello and welcome to the list from me. > > I have been following your posts with great interest. It is most > unexpected to find someone from a non-Buddhist background with such a keen > interest in the Abhidhamma, teaching to a Buddhist community! I think you > are doing a great job with your classes, and I am amazed at the energy you > seem to have to put into this. > > I particularly appreciate the way you regard the abhidhamma as something > that has relevance to daily life, in other words, as part an parcel of the > teachings as a whole. > > You say: > > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > > life, drive people to action. > > I think this is admirable. I would only add that, in addition to > encouraging people to action, your objective is, I am sure, also to > encourage the development of understanding. As you know, the quality of > any action is determined by the quality of the accompanying citta. The > key to developing any kusala quality (such as metta) is in being able to > distinguish moments of that quality from moments that are not but which > may seem like it. This of course requires a level of understanding; > unfortunately for us all, sincerely wanting, intending to have more kusala > is not a sufficient condition for its arising. One of the great things > about the Abhidhamma is that it helps make us more aware of the subtle > distinctions between different realities, and the very precise conditions > necessary for their arising, so that in daily life we are not so inclined > to take for kusala what in fact is akusala. > > As you will have realised, not all aspects of the abhidhamma lend > themselves to an 'action-oriented' approach! Think of some of the > universals such as contact, ekaggata. These accompany each an every > moment of consciousness (so what action is there to be done?!), yet as > individual dhammas they may never be apparent to us in the course of a > lifetime. But understanding at a theoretical level something about their > characteristic and function is nevertheless of great benefit to the > development of understanding. > > Good luck with your continued studies and teaching, and I hope you find > your time here useful. > > Jon > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi all, > > > > In a recent posting, Nina wrote, "Rob M, It may be a good idea if > > you indicate each time about what subject you will be talking next > > for your group. It gives us the opportunity to consider this subject > > also and in this way we can all share, it would be very useful." > > > > This is great for me (and the students!). > > > > Here is a bit of background to put things into context. > > > > The Vihara runs a Sunday School. I suspect that there must be close > > to 1000 kids registered, but not all show up each week. Some of the > > parents want to take classes as well on Sunday mornings while their > > kids are occupied. There is a one-year "Introduction to Buddhism" > > course for adults. After the introductory course, many of the adults > > follow this up with Abhidhamma classes the following year. This is > > the path that I took. > > > > For four years, I studied Abhidhamma under Brother Teo. He really > > knows his stuff. In January 2002, I voluntered to be Bro. > > Teo's "apprentice" and take over the first 75 minutes of class. > > After a brief break, Bro. Teo then teaches for 75 minutes followed > > by another brief break and Vipassana mediation led by Bro. Teo. > > > > In his part of the class, Bro. Teo has somebody read a section from > > ADL and then he gives more background information. After seven > > months, we are just now on Chapter 4. For my portion of the class, I > > want to put more focus on the "in daily life" aspect of Abhidhamma. > > I try to focus on "relevance" and "action", leaving the job of > > teaching the more theoretical stuff to Bro. Teo. I am interested in > > the theoretical stuff, but Bro. Teo is better at it than I am. > > > > For the past few months, I have been going through the cetasikas, > > drawing heavily on Nina's book, "Cetasikas". I am finished with the > > akusala cetasikas and am now doing the universal kusala cetasikas. > > Each week, I take one cetasika and start with the definition > > (characteristic, function, manifestation, proximate cause). I then > > summarize the relevant chapter from Nina's book. I then summarize > > practical points from other materials downloaded from the Internet. > > > > For example, I recently talked on Alobha and then summarized Bhikkhu > > Bodhi's book "Dana". Each week, I prepare class notes in bullet form > > (typically one page) which is distributed. I also summarize the > > stuff that I download from the Internet and hand it out as well. > > Bro. Teo reviews all of my material before I distribute it. In the > > past seven months, I have prepared more than 100 pages of handouts. > > I make 75 copies of each handout and they all get used up. By the > > end of 2002, I will have 150 - 200 pages of handouts and I will get > > them printed up as "class notes" for next year. > > > > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > > life, drive people to action. This is where I am hoping to get help > > from this group. I have lots of reference books (I recently picked > > up more than 50 books/booklets on a trip to Colombo). What I am > > looking for are ways of making the material come alive to a non- > > academic group of parents. > > > > The class schedule for the next few weeks is as follows: > > Jul 21 - Sangdikha Dana (no class) > > Jul 28 - Tatramajjhattata / six pairs > > Aug 4 - Adosa (Khanti + Metta) > > Aug 11 - I will probably be on vacation > > Aug 18 - Start the wholesome occasional cetasikas (Vaci- duccarita > > Virati - abstinence from wrong speech ) > > Aug 25 - Kaya-duccarita Virati (Abstinence from Wrong Action) > > > > I am not sure that I can fill up a full 75 minutes of motivational > > talk on Tatramajjhattata / six pairs on July 28. My "plan B" is to > > bring in a monk for a portion of my time to discuss the process of > > becoming a monk and describe a monk's daily life. Unfortunately, I > > can't use this "get out of jail free card" more than once, so I have > > to make sure that I have a full plate of materials for future > > classes. > > > > Metta is a farily easy topic to make relevant to people's lives, but > > I would be happy to start collecting ideas on how to make the three > > abstinences more interesting. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14534 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking op 22-07-2002 23:15 schreef Howard op Howard: > =============================== > Thank you for your kind reply. However, I must be a bit dense today - > that is, more dense than usual ;-). I'm not following you. When an object is > gone, so are all its characteristics gone. When the visual object is gone - > that is, when the visual consciousness is completed and mental discernment, > instead, is operative, the mental discernment must be discerning some mental > object, which I *presumed* must be "a 'fresh memory' (a faithful replica) of > the just fallen-away image". If that is not what the object of the mental > consciousness is, what is it then? Dear Howard, It is visible object that is experienced by cittas in the eye-door process, and it is visible object experienced by cittas arising in the mind-door process that follows the eye-door process. Not mental object. The same in the case of the other sense-cognitions. Only later on there are mind-door processes of cittas experiencing concepts. See Expositor I, from p. 95 on, Part 2, Analysis of Terms, Risings of Consciousness, especially 74: Only when the first stage of insight arises doubts about this disappear. Hoping that this clarifies, best wishes, from Nina. 14535 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta in Daily Life Dear friends, since metta and khanti are the themes of reflection these days I shall add a few thoughts. Actually when we deal with metta we should also speak about akusala. We should come to know the difference between kusala and akusala as was also stressed by Rob M. When we are with people there are opportunities for metta, the object of metta are persons. But very often conceit arises. I quote what I wrote about our discussions in India: When there is conceit we are thinking of the importance of self, our personality, whereas, when there is metta we think of the benefit of others. Thus, as Rob K explained, the study of the teachings, of akusala citta and kusala citta can be a condition for more metta. But we cannot force ourselves to have metta instead of conceit, As he wrote: op 23-07-2002 04:06 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op robertk: anatta as anger and ill-will. > > There can also be direct insight into the moments of sound - and if > there is then there will be no unwholesome reaction at all, and so > metta is free to arise.> end quote. Christine wrote: < I often try to think of them before I see them, as separate 'parts', as skin, teeth, intestines until I can realise there is no 'one' to judge or be frightened of. Then I try to see that, like me, they are subject to birth aging and death, kamma and relentless re-birth. If we are both of us subject to this same suffering, somehow they don't seem so different to me, not so scary, not so unlikeable. > When I talk with someone I find difficult to converse with, it helps to consider dhammas such as sound, hearing, visible object. But there are not always conditions for this. Even on the thinking level, not yet direct awareness, it helps to remember that in reality there is not X sitting there. Only citta, cetasika and rupa. I do not hear the boring or unpleasant stories of X,there is just hearing or sound. (By the way this reminds me of the sutta quoted by Howard: in the seeing there is just seeing. To me, that is the meaning: no person, no self in the seeing.) If we understand that our akusala cittas arise because of conditions, we will also understand that akusala cittas of someone else are conditioned. We will be less inclined to judge others and we will have more understanding of their problems.We can become, as A. Sujin says, "an understanding person." Also patience is necessary for each kind of kusala. We need patience to listen to the Dhamma, to consider often the different cittas of our life, kusala or akusala. Instead of aversion of our akusala we should have the patience to study and consider the different cittas arising because of conditions. Also energy, viriya is indispensable, to have courage, to continue studying and considering the dhammas of our daily life. When we make efforts to help others it is tiring, but then we need patience and energy, courage, not delaying kusala, not giving it up, making false excuses. A few thoughts from A. Sujin's book on Metta: She talked about the sutta of Dhananjani (S I, Ch VII) "what must we slay to live happily?", saying, Thus, sincerity, truthfulness is very necessary for the development of kusala. Otherwise we make ourselves believe that we have kusala for a long time, whereas in reality, many akusala cittas arise in between. A. Sujin explains: Metta conditions other good qualities: it conditions generosity, kind speech, humbleness. It conditions true courtesy, politeness which comes from the heart. We can develop kusala without being concerned about it whether one is liked by others or not. We can develop metta towards others, even when we do not receive any kindness from them. What would the world be without metta, we have to help each other, we are dependent on each other. Best wishes from Nina. 14536 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:52am Subject: Re: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > > > Dear Rob. E., > I might have misunderstood your intent but you seemed to be > suggesting that anapanasati because it is a popular sutta is the one > recommended for all followers including laypeople. Actually, I explicitly said something to the contrary: that the technicalities of breathing meditation were probably more suited for monks or those free enough of responsibilities to do a serious meditation practice. And that the Sutta you had quoted which spoke about mindfulness in all the various activities of life was probably suitable for both monks and laypeople, since both had daily activities to be mindful of. When I said the sutta was one of the most popular the only meaning that had was that it is highly valued in the Theravadan tradition and ocnsidered one of the main core Suttas. All of the above suggests to me that the Buddha did explicitly promote meditation practice, but he also explicitly promoted the practice of mindfulness in everyday living, whether one is able to meditate or not. I don't see the two emphases as being mutually exclusive or contradictory, but rather complementary. My point in the beginning of my message was that one should not assume that meditation was not specifically promoted as a practice by the Buddha just because you can find a Sutta in which it is not emphasized. And I pointed out that it is emphasized in another place, in the anapanasati, where it is given its own in-depth treatment. best, Robert Ep. ======================== This seems > different from my reading of the Pali; > For example Mahanama - a great layfollower visted the Buddha: > > "" For those of us living by means of various dwelling places [for > the mind], by means of which dwelling place should we live?" > "Excellent, Mahanama, excellent! It is fitting for clansmen like you > to approach the Tathagata and ask, 'For those of us living by means > of various dwelling places [for the mind], by means of which > dwelling place should we live?' [.........] > ] "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: [.....]' At > any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the > Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with > aversion, not overcome with delusion. [...] > "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while > you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, > while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are > resting in your home crowded with children. > > [2] "Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect the > Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen > here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be > realized by the wise for themselves.' At any time when a disciple of > the noble ones is recollecting the Dhamma, his mind is not overcome > with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with > delusion. [..]" > Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Dhamma while > you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, > while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are > resting in your home crowded with children."endquote > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Mahanama.htm > So I think that anapanasati wasn't recommended for all. It was for > some - especially to the great monks who could develop this (it is > the object even the Buddha's take on the eve of their enlightenment- > a very superlative object). It is very excellent for those with the > accumulations and who live in seclusion, but I don't think the Pali > texts say that everyone must develop it. > Robert > > > Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > I think there is some danger in thinking that something that has > not been > > explicitly mentioned is in fact the case, based on negative data, > that is, a lack > > of data. > > > > One may use deductive reasoning to conclude that since meditation > is not > > specifically mentioned in the Sutta below, that it is not meant to > be utilized as > > a specialized way of realizing mindfulness. I would however say > that this was > > saying that the suspect was guilty of murder because no witness > came forward to > > say that he was not innocent. The reason that this is not an > acceptable way of > > proving a crime is because it leaves open all the other > possibilities that have > > also not been mentioned. > > > > To my mind, the litany below is on a particular subject: the > practice of > > mindfulness throughout all of the activities of daily life. It is > obviously an > > important subject and an important practice, and the Buddha makes > this clear by > > outlining all the ways and conditions under which mindfulness can > be practiced. > > Does this rule out the practice of meditation as a specialized > practice that takes > > its place as a perfect complement to the daily living practice? > Not at all. This > > is in no way implied, and there is no reason why the two would not > coexist. I > > would even presume that this Sutta would be for both monks when > they are going > > about their business and for lay people in their daily life; but > the specialized > > instructions on meditation would be more appropriate for monks and > might very well > > have a special Sutta reserved for it which would not be > particularly promoted to > > lay people who do not have a lifestyle of meditative discipline. > > > > In fact, we do have a Sutta, one of the two most popular ones in > the Pali Canon, > > which does exactly this: gives a strong set of instructions for > meditation, based > > in breathing meditation and covering the way in which the Four > Foundations of > > Mindfulness are uncovered through breathing meditation, that is of > course: the > > Anapanasati Sutta - the Sutta of Mindfulness of the Breathing. > Now if the Buddha > > devotes the Sutta you have quoted to all manner of positions and > activities in > > which mindfulness may be practiced, but devotes an entire Sutta to > mindfulness of > > the breathing in meditation; how do you logically conclude as you > do that there is > > no added weight given to breathing meditation as a vehicle of > mindfulness compared > > with all the other objects, positions and ways in which > mindfulness may be > > practiced? > > > > It seems to me that you are not taking account of the evidence > given by your most, > > perhaps only, reliable witness, the Buddha himself. > > > > Here is what he says, for instance, which has already been quoted > on dsg recently, > > but is worthy of repetition in this discussion: > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > = > > > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is > of great fruit, > > of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when > developed & pursued, > > brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four > frames of > > reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for > Awakening to > > their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed > & pursued, > > bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. > > > > (Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing) > > > > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued > so as to bring > > the four frames of reference to their culmination? ... > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > = > > > > The Sutta then goes on for pages and pages of instruction on > breathing meditation. > > I foind it hard to understand how this does not make the Buddha's > point obvious, > > that breathing meditation is one of the great vehicles of > mindfulness, recommended > > and detailed by him. It was in this prized community where he > complimented the > > monks' extraordinary strides and their techniques. He mentions a > number of other > > practices in an introductory manner, but why does he stop and > focus on the > > breathing meditation as the most important of these? Why does he > mention it last > > and accord all that detail to this practice? It is not a > coincidence and it is > > clear that this is the practice among the others mentioned that > the Buddha felt > > was the highest and most efficacious vehicle. You say that the > Buddha did not > > emphasize meditation in general or breathing meditation in > particular, and that it > > is given either no weight or equal weight to all other forms of > the development of > > discernment. In fact you often say that there should be no > special effort made to > > practice discernment formally, but only in daily living. > > > > I would like to know what role you think the anapanasati sutta > plays, and why it > > was written, if not to emphasize the practice of breathing > meditation - one of the > > few special practices, if I am correct, that merits its own > Sutta. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep > > > > ======================= > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: 14537 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 7/24/02 12:53:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Howard, > > A possibly spurious question, but interested in your answer anyway: > > > > If there is no 'outside' phenomenon, what is the meaning of saying they are > > 'internal'? In other words, where, or in what faculty, do they take place; > > if > > there are no external environments, objects, senses, etc.? > > > > And how are we having this conversation? > > > > > ============================ > It's a good question. There is the seeming of externality, but it is > only a seeming. What seem to be "out there" are actually concepts/percepts. > What actually are observed are the paramattha dhammas, which, when observed > directly, and not as characteristics of "external objects", do not appear as > external. > As far as how we are having this conversation, my phenomenalism is not > a solipsism, but is very close to the "radical empiricism" of William James, > in which multiple mindstreams interact, much like the Indra's Net (to steal > an image from the Garland Sutra of Mahayana). Well you really are a phenomenalist. As I may have mentioned, my philosophy degree [BA only] was focussed on the Phenomenology of Husserl and Merleau-Ponty, and the phenomenological alternative to both objectivity and solipsism is 'intersubjectivity', where subjects both coexist and make shared agreements as to what exists and how to navigate together. It is a subjective, but shared, view of the universe. Best, Robert Ep. 14538 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 7/24/02 12:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Buddha may well have taken the benefits of seclusion and simple living from > > the > > ascetics; sitting posture and perhaps breathing meditation from the yogis; > > he may > > have mirrored the eightfold ashtanga yoga path in his eightfold path, while > > covering a much different series of elements. > > > > > ========================== > I'm terrible on history, but I think that the Buddha came before Patanjali. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard. This crossed my mind, but I also think that Ashtanga may pre-date Patanjali's codification in the Yoga Sutras. My history's at least as spotty as yours, so I'm not sure. Best, Robert Ep. 14539 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Nina > > Thanks for taking the trouble to check the Thera- Theri-Gatha. It is > interesting that you could so easily come up with many instances of > enlightenment being attained other than while 'sitting'. It shows I think > that understanding of dhammas can be developed at any time, even while > doing the most mundane of chores. This bears out what is said in the > Satipatthana Sutta about mindfulness and clear comprehension being present > at any and all times. > > Very inspiring. Thanks. > > Jon Hi Jon. I hope you don't think that my interest in meditation implies that one must be sitting to attain enlightenment, or that enlightenment only comes through meditation. I am looking to have meditation included as an expedient means in your purview, not to exclude other practices. In the Mahayana tradition too, meditation is sometimes secondary. Hui Neng was enlightened while hearing a passage of the Diamond Sutra being read aloud in a marketplace. He had never meditated and had no education. Obviously kammic conditions and past life progress were the predominant factors. He was the Sixth Patriarch of Chinese Buddhism, and the founder of what became zen. He always spoke about 'realizing the Essence of Mind directly' through contemplation, the equivalent of discerning cittas, not about 'sitting meditation'. Bodhidharma, the Indian teacher who brought Buddhism to China from India, stood facing a wall as a his meditation, so while he did meditate quite intensely, he didn ot sit. I believe that meditation is one of the most expedient means to realization, but I do not think it is the only means, or that mindfulness in daily life can by any means be dispensed with. best, Robert Ep. ================= > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > > you wrote to Howard about meditation in texts and then mentioned the > > following: > > > > op 12-07-2002 15:27 schreef Jonothan Abbott op <>: > > And in the > > > case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the > > > seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts. > > > > > > If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as > > something > > > that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting > > for > > > the purpose. Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries > > this > > > implication for many readers. > > >> Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am > > > misinterpreted. I am of course not overlooking the fact that there > > were > > > many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while > > > 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting' > > > attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not > > 'sitting' > > > -- listening to the Buddha's discourses). And among the many monks in > > the > > > Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most > > (but > > > not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'. (BTW, I > > wonder > > > if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work > > out > > > the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).> end quote. > > > > N: Very interesting subject, Jon. I took out last night the "Psalms of > > the > > Brothers and Sisters" and began to look at a few of the Theris who > > attained > > enlightenment: > > > > Canto I, no 1, an anonymous sister: her curry burnt in the oven, it > > reminded > > her of impermanence and she became a non-returner. > > no. 17, Dhamma: returning from her alms round she lost her balance and > > fell. > > This reminded her of the Truth: "all the misery besetting this poor > > mortal > > frame" and she attained arahatship. > > No 23, Citta: she climbed in her old age Vulture's Peak, her bowl > > overturned, and she leaned agains a rock. She attained arahatship. > > You remember the shady place on top near a rock where we could sit and > > rest. > > Then we saw A. Sujin being carried up in a chair, Khun Santi was helping > > her, because she had some trouble with her leg. > > no. 47, Patacara: she had lost chidren and husband. The trickling water > > and > > the fading light of the lamp reminded her of impermanence and she became > > an > > arahat. > > > > I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances > > also of > > attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of > > Dhamma. > > But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for > > aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of > > daily > > life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have > > so > > many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better > > use > > of them. > > Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life, > > with appreciation, > > Nina. 14540 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/24/02 1:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > op 22-07-2002 23:15 schreef Howard op Howard: > > > > =============================== > > Thank you for your kind reply. However, I must be a bit dense today - > > that is, more dense than usual ;-). I'm not following you. When an object > is > > gone, so are all its characteristics gone. When the visual object is gone > - > > that is, when the visual consciousness is completed and mental > discernment, > > instead, is operative, the mental discernment must be discerning some > mental > > object, which I *presumed* must be "a 'fresh memory' (a faithful replica) > of > > the just fallen-away image". If that is not what the object of the mental > > consciousness is, what is it then? > Dear Howard, > It is visible object that is experienced by cittas in the eye-door process, > and it is visible object experienced by cittas arising in the mind-door > process that follows the eye-door process. Not mental object. The same in > the case of the other sense-cognitions. Only later on there are mind-door > processes of cittas experiencing concepts. > See Expositor I, from p. 95 on, Part 2, Analysis of Terms, Risings of > Consciousness, especially 74: apperceptional thought (javana) having any one of the objects arises > through > two doors in the manner described. Thus the apperception of a visible > object > arises at the eye-dooor and also at the mind-door...> > Only when the first stage of insight arises doubts about this disappear. > Hoping that this clarifies, best wishes, from Nina. > > ============================= Thanks for the explanation. Okay, but could you please say a bit more about how the mind-door/mentality experiences a visual image? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14541 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Rob - Yep, you caught me!! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/24/02 4:56:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Well you really are a phenomenalist. As I may have mentioned, my philosophy > degree [BA only] was focussed on the Phenomenology of Husserl and > Merleau-Ponty, > and the phenomenological alternative to both objectivity and solipsism is > 'intersubjectivity', where subjects both coexist and make shared agreements > as to > what exists and how to navigate together. > > It is a subjective, but shared, view of the universe. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14542 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:16am Subject: ADL ch. 17 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 17 (3) It is useful to classify citta by way of dvara (doorway). If one only classifies citta by way of function (kicca), but not by dvara, one may not know which citta is referred to. For example, the panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) has the function of avajjana (adverting). If one does not know that this citta performs the function of adverting through the five sense-doors, one may confuse it with the mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) which also perform the function of avajjana. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta, however, performs the function of avajjana only through the mind-door. Some cittas perform their function only through one door. For example, the two types of citta which are sota-vinnana (hearing-consciousness, which can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka), only perform their functions through one door, the ear-door. Some cittas perform their function through more than one door. Sampaticchana-citta (receiving consciousness) performs its function through five doors, depending on the doorway which is contacted by the object. Santirana-citta has different functions performed through different doorways; it also performs functions without being dependent on any doorway and this is the case when it performs the function of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti. Citta should also be classified according to feeling. For example, santirana-citta can be accompanied by upekkha (indifferent feeling) and by somanassa (pleasant feeling). Santirana-citta which is accompanied by somanassa can perform the function of santirana (investigating) through five doors and the function of tadarammana (registering, occurring after the javana-cittas) through six doors. When santirana-citta is accompanied by upekkha (and in that case it can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka), it can perform five functions: 1. The function of santirana through five doors. 2. The function of tadarammana through six doors. 3. The function of patisandhi, without being dependent on any door. 4. The function of bhavanga, without being dependent on any door. 5. The function of cuti, without being dependent on any door. In the processes of citta the doorway (dvara) is the means through which citta experiences its object. The physical base (vatthu) is another factor which conditions citta by being its place of origin. In the planes of existence where there are nama and rupa, cittas do not arise independently of the body; a citta which arises has a rupa as its place of origin. When there is seeing, could seeing arise outside the body? When there is hearing or thinking, could these cittas arise without the body? This would not be possible. Where does seeing arise? It could not arise on our arm or in our ear. It needs the eye as its physical base. The cakkhuppasada-rupa, the rupa in the eye which can receive visible object, is the physical base for the citta which sees. The physical base or vatthu is not the same as dvara or doorway. Although the cakkhuppasada-rupa is both dvara and vatthu for seeing-consciousness, dvara and vatthu have different functions. The eye-door (cakkhu-dvara) is the means through which cittas of the eye-door process experience an object. The cakkhu-vatthu (eye-base) is the physical base, the place of origin for seeing- consciousness. The cakkhu-vatthu is the base only for seeing-consciousness, not for the other cittas of that process. The other cittas of that process have another vatthu. The vatthu for hearing-consciousness is the sotappasada-rupa, for smelling-consciousness the ghanappasada-rupa, for tasting- consciousness the jivhappasada-rupa, for body-consciousness the kayappasada-rupa. There is a sixth vatthu which is not one of the pasada-rupas. This is the hadaya-vatthu or heart-base. The hadaya-vatthu is a kind of rupa which is the place of origin for the cittas which are not among the panca-vinnanas (seeing, hearing, etc.) since these cittas have the pasada-rupa as their place of origin. The hadaya-vatthu is different from the mind-door. The mind-door is a citta, the bhavangupaccheda-citta, which is the last bhavanga-citta arising before the mano- dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness). The hadaya-vatthu is rupa, not nama. 14543 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:35am Subject: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) --- Robert Epstein wrote: > """When I said the sutta was one of the most popular the only meaning that had was that it is highly valued in the Theravadan tradition and ocnsidered one of the main core Suttas. All of the above suggests to me that the Buddha did explicitly promote meditation practice, but he also explicitly promoted the practice of mindfulness in everyday living, whether one is able to meditate or not."" By the sutta you mean the anapanasati sutta. There are thousands of suttas, I don't doubt you but I think it is good to supply references when you say it is considered a main core sutta in the Theravada tradition. Of course the Buddha promoted meditation. There are 40 subjects of samatha - and the sutta I gave yesterday includes 4 of them. Also surely vipassana, insight meditation, is most highly recommended. Robert 14544 From: christineforsyth Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 0:24pm Subject: brief leave-of-absence Dear Group, I'm taking a brief leave-of-absence from the List, from tonight until Sunday evening ...... Sarah F and I are meeting Jon and Sarah and other dsg-ers in Noosa for a few days of Dhamma discussion and relaxation. Really looking forward to seeing everyone - not so sure about marathon bush walks though KenH :) I read some recipes for non- harming removal of leeches the other day.... something to do with sprinkling them with the juice of crushed tobacco leaves and fresh limes. Apparently, they then just detach and jump off.... I'd like to see that! metta, Christine 14545 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:40pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > """When I said the sutta was one of the most popular the only > meaning that had was > that it is highly valued in the Theravadan tradition and ocnsidered > one of the > main core Suttas. All of the above suggests to me that the Buddha did > explicitly > promote meditation practice, but he also explicitly promoted the > practice of > mindfulness in everyday living, whether one is able to meditate or > not."" > > By the sutta you mean the anapanasati sutta. There are thousands of > suttas, I don't doubt you but I think it is good to supply > references when you say it is considered a main core sutta in the > Theravada tradition. > Of course the Buddha promoted meditation. There are 40 subjects of > samatha - and the sutta I gave yesterday includes 4 of them. Also > surely vipassana, insight meditation, is most highly recommended. > Robert Well I've never heard Jon make a similar statement; he seems to explicitly dismiss meditation as an important method of realization; to the point where I've had the impression this is part of the Abhidhamma philosophy. Jon has said that any purposeful attempt to set up conditions, such as sitting formerly in mediation, in order to practice mindfulness, adds an obstacle to the natural realization of naturally occurring dhammas, which should be discerned as they arise, without choosing the object. Now if I am misrepresenting him or Abhdidhamma, I would be happy to know this. I have absolutely nothing in opposition to the Abhidhammic mandate to encounter and discern all arising dhammas with mindfulness throughout the course of daily living. I just think that this is magnified by using all the available tools of realization: Sutta study; discernment of dhammas; association with spiritual friends; and meditation. And a little metta never hurts either. As for saying that the anapanasati sutta is one of the most popular, I don't have evidence except from my own experience that it seems to be widely known, translated, talked about, referenced and practiced by people I've run into and what I've seen on-line. Best, Robert Ep. 14546 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/24/02 5:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > Thanks for the explanation. Okay, but could you please say a bit more > about how the mind-door/mentality experiences a visual image? > > ============================= I've been thinking this over, and perhaps I get it. When an image is discerned by visual consciousness, there is the function of mere seeing, but when mental consciousness operates on the very same image, there is, for example, the operation of sa~n~na, or identification/recognition. The same image obtained by the process of visual discernment is processed in a further manner. Am I correct? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14547 From: Ruth Klein Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Buddha images Thank you for your lovely personal experience. I will just give it time, watch and wait. My views will change - they always do. Namaste, Ruth BTW, Ruth was my paternal grandmother, who died before I was born. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:59 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha images > > > Dear Ruth, > > I too come from the same cultural background as you and had the > same doubts > and uncomfortable feelings about bowing down to a "graven image" when I > first came to Thailand back in 1966. I could not see the purpose > of it, and > at the time, thought it totally unnecessary. I saw the images > only as lovely > art objects, but bowed to them during ceremonies out of respect for my > husband's family. Later, many here tried to convince me that the > images held > "psychic powers" and indeed, many Thais venerate them for the "power" they > believe the images possess. > > However, with the study of Abhidhamma, a new understanding of > Buddha images > arose. The Tipitaka says (sorry, I don't know the text reference, would > someone kindly help me out?) something to the effect: he who sees the > Dhamma, sees the Tathagata. One who increasingly understands the Dhamma, > likewise becomes increasingly aware of the awesomeness of both the Dhamma > and of the One who discovered and taught the Dhamma to us. So > now, when I do > see a Buddha image, it acts as a "condition" for the arising of a sense of > joy and thanksgiving for the Dhamma, with the understanding that the image > itself is just a reminder to us to keep on developing bhavana, dana and > sila. > > By the way, at the Foundation where Achaan Sujin teaches, there are no > Buddha images at all. There is a tastefully designed altar with a lovely > crystal "stupa" which has a relic of the Buddha encased within, > given to the > Foundation by the Supreme Patriarch. > > metta, > Betty > _______________________ > Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala > 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > Bangkok 10900, Thailand > tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > I couldn't agree more! One of my most frequent doubts is the g-dlike > > reverence (bowing, statues, etc) to Siddhartha Gautama. I understand, > > intellectually, the significance of a man achieving enlightenment. And > that > > bowing, to someone brought up in an Asian culture, is a gesture of > respect, > > and used for all teachers, dignitaries, etc - almost like a Western > > handshake. (Ok, not quite, but you get the idea... its a > cultural thing.) > > > > However, I cannot help but stop myself from setting up my own altar or > > bowing to the Buddha, simply because of the conditioned beliefs of "Thou > > shalt have no other g-d before me." and "Thou shalt not make > unto thee any > > graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above...." > > > > Also, if I am not mistaken, though the earlier suttas expound that > > Siddhartha Gautama was a man, some of the later ones (and works such as > the > > Buddhavamsa) have elevated him past the human realm to a superman, > > Maha-Purisa. (See George Bond: "The Word of the Buddha: The > Tipitaka and > > its Interpretation in Theravada Buddhism", M.D. Gunasena & Co, 1982). > > > > I don't know if I will ever 'resolve' these internal conflicts; > but I need > > to explore them further. > > > 14548 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 11:11pm Subject: dukkha, tanha saw this on a tshirt here in hawaii. Looks like the hawaiian version of dukkha, tanha, nirodha: "if get, get. If no get, no get." -fk 14549 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: translation Dear Kom, Thank you very much, this is very interesting. I shall add a footnote. Dhura can mean: yoke, office, responsibility, charge. op 23-07-2002 22:15 schreef Kom Tukovinit op <>: > > If you have the atthagatha to the particular jataka, there is a further > explanation. Let me first give you comments on the Thai translation, and I > will give you a translation from the Thai commentaries (be careful!) > > Mai chai thura in Thai is exactly how you translated, not their business. > Dhura may have additional meaning, though: if you stretch it, it probably > can mean duty, behavior, or practice. > > The commentary says this: > a-dhura-yang(???) (same word root as thura): means someone with inferior > panna, who doesn't induce in others the business (the development?) of > saddha, the development of sila, the development of panna, who induce in > others improper businesses. > > You may want to re-verify the translations with others (more knowledgeable!) > for the sentence: "they are likely to take upon themselves undue tasks" as > the Thai translation and the commentaries interpretting this as inducing on > others, not applying to themselves. 14550 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 3, comments Dear Num, Thank you very much, I appreciate your enthusiasm and patience to render the lectures. I will add some remarks and point to the English passages in the English translation. Panna by listening: see Enlish Path of Discrimination, applying the ear, p. 8, and following. Then restraint after hearing, sila maya ~naa.na: p. 43. Sila is translated as virtue. restraint: samvara, I prefer "guarding" for this term. Restraint makes me think of: just suppress and then concentrate. Or it makes me think: sila is just abstaining, but much more is included in sila as you pointed out . But, as you said, the whole book stresses panna above all. Now some reactions, remarks, questions. op 24-07-2002 01:48 schreef Num op Num: > Path of Discrimination / Patisambhidamagga #3 > Book #1 is matika and its commentary. There are 73 different levels of n~ana. > This part is dealing with each n~ana¹s definition and its tipitaka references. > A.Supee and A.Sujin stressed that each (ariyan) person has different > accumulation and it¹s not necessary that he/she attained all n~ana. > Ven.Sariputta explained this sutta in explicit detail to cover all possible > n~ana. For example there are 6 n~anas that can be attained only by the > Buddha. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------- > > Mahavagga, matika and atthakathan~a_n.akathamatika. > > 1) Sutamayan~a_n.a (suta: listening, maya: attain, success, nana: knowledge) > Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana. > Atthakatah: Knowledge attained through listening (sutamayan~a_n.a). Suta here > refers to teaching of the Buddha. Knowledge attained by listening to the > teaching is sutamayan~ana. It can also refer associated dhamma of listening > for example phassa. Knowledge in associated dhamma of listening is > sutamayan~ana. Then the commentary gives the definition of knowledge (n~ana). > < penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow by a > skillful archer. Illumination of the object as its function, as it were a > lamp. Non-confusion as its manifestation, as it were a hunter gives guidance > to one who is getting in the forest. And samadhi as its proximate cause.>> > A.Sujin stressed on the importance of listening and the knowledge at the > listening level. Nina: I like this very much, it all begins with listening. And as said above: < Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana.> One of the conditions for satipatthana is firm remembrance. That comes from listening and considering again and again. The Thai Co, p. 37, uses the word bahussuta, who has heard much. > Num: 2) Silamayan~ana > Matika: Knowledge in listening to dhamma and then restrain is silaman~ana. > Atthakatha: Knowledge attained through restrain. (silamayan~ana). Sangvara > (restraint) factors: pat.imokkha, sati, n~ana, khanti, and viriya. There are > many kinds and level of sila, but all silas has restrain as there > characteristic. Nina: the Co. p. 37, speaks about understanding that has been accomplished through listening. And Co elaborates (p. 39) on the different types of sila. As you mentioned there are many kinds, and when we study these we see that sila is not just abstaining. Under patimokkha, the example is taken: a monk sees visible object but he is not taken in by the image of a whole or the details. Thus this is guarding the doorways, indriya samvara sila. The most effective guarding is by satipatthana. Awareness of visible object as only a kind of rupa, of seeing as only a kind of nama. No dosa towards visible object or sound, they are not a person. About sati and panna as sila: the Co mentions about sati as restraint or that which holds back a stream, whereas panna is the dam, it is the most effective to dam the stream (of defilements), See Sutta Nipata, vs. 1034, 1035. Num: Getting rid of one who is unrestrained, or having no adverse > effect as its function. Cleanness as its manifestation, and having shame > (hiri) and fear of blame (ottappa) as its proximate cause. Knowledge which > accompanies (sampayutta) by sila is silamayan~ana. Reflecting on adverse > effects of unrestraint, reflecting on benefit of restraint, reflecting on > purity of restraint, and reflecting the cleanness attained from restraint are > parts of silamayan~ana. > > 3) Samadhibhavanamayan~na > Matika: Knowledge in restraint and then concentrate is bhavanamayan~ana. > Atthakatha: Samadhibhavanamayan~na. Knowledge of the one who contains in > restraint and precepts (sila), then focus on single point with the ability of > upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi, knowledge in samadhicitta, or associated > with samadhicitta. > > 4) Dhammat.hitin~ana (thiti:sustain) > Matika: Knowledge in discernment of conditions is dhammathitinana. > Atthakatha: Synonym of this nana is paccayapariggaye panna. Thiti means > sustain. Dhamma here means all sankharadhamma, dhatu, sabhava: kusaladhamma, > akusaladhamma and abayakatadhamma. Dhamma or dhatu or paccayupannadhamma > called dhamma because it is being arisen sustained by its conditions. Knowing > by discernment of each dhamma¹s conditions, is dhammathitinana. ( atthakatha > then says dhammathitinana is equal to namarupaparichedanana plus > paccayapariggayanana in 16 nanas. Nina: for the sake of terms which may be difficult for those who do not know Pali: nama-rupa-paricheda~naa.na is the first stage of tender insight: distinguishing the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa. The second one, paccayapariggha ~naa.na is the direct understanding of conditions. A question: some people think, when they read the Visuddhimagga, that you have to know all conditions for each nama and rupa or know them by reasoning. But insight is not theory, but panna that directly knows. It just knows that seeing is vipaka condiitoned by kamma, conditioned by object and base. could you obtain additional info about this stage which is not reasoning? As to thi.ti , dhamma thi.ti ~naa.na, See English p. 36. This is translated as stagnation, which is not good. I would say: stabilisation. This is a difficult part: is it that panna has become firmer? Num: The atthakatha then stresses on the importance of listening to the Buddha > teaching. It mentions ³no being² (nissattata). There is dhamma that exists > very briefly, then changes and gone (vikara). > The atthakatha then raises the point why this nana is not being called > samatha-paccayapariyanana (knowledge in discernment of conditions by > one-pointed mind). The atthakatha says because samatha and vipassana are > paired dhammas (yuganaddhadhamma). It can be said that when one sees clearly > (vipassana), one¹s mind is one-pointed, or when one¹s mind is one-pointed, > he/she sees clearly. Nina:... when one¹s mind is one-pointed, > he/she sees clearly. What degree of one-pointedness? This is often quoted to maintain the idea that people should first concentrate. Num: The atthakatha then continues with ³as long as magga > dose not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and make samadhi > and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep on trying.² Nina: Here the Co, p. 51, is short. I like more info if possible. Is it that someone is so enticed by jhana that he does not apply insight and thus keeps on taking jhana for self? Thus, the yogi who has accumulated conditions for high degrees of samadhi should practise samadhi and vipassana as a pair, and keep on applying himself to this. Is that correct? Num: < A.Supee pointed out that samatha/samadhi in 8 magga-factor refers to 3 > magga factors: sammasati, sammavayama, and sammasamadhi (samathisikkha). > Vipassana in 8 magga-factor refers to sammasankappa, and sammadithti > (pannasikkha). I also asked him a question why the tipitaka here put nana is > stepwise manner: suta-, sila, samadhibhavana, and the dhammathitinana, is it a > stepwise instruction? He said this manner of expounding is an explicit manner. > It means to cover every different accumulation, or person. Every patisambhida > person (refer only to the ariyan person) has different accumulation. One may > attain both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without attaining > nana ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing dhamma, not jhana and > vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all in his teaching. >> Nina: you mention here, a Patisambhida person, thus, those who are so talented that they will attain with the four discriminative knowledges, as explained before in this series. I conclude that we cannot copy them, it is very, very high. Thank you Num, for all this material that is good for consideration. With apppreciation Nina. 14551 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 3, no 5. Perfections, Ch 3, no. 5. If we consider the perfections developed by the Buddha life after life, as related in the ³Basket of Conduct², we can see that our development of the perfections is still very insignificant compared to his development, there is an immense difference. Therefore, we should further develop all the perfections. We should not have expectations with regard to right understanding of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away very rapidly at this moment. The truth cannot be realized immediately, but understanding must be developed very gradually during an endlessly long time. We read at the end of the Commentary to the ³Conduct of Akitti²: There may be confidence in him (the Bodhisatta), confidence that it is possible to be freed from dukkha, but one may merely express words about this confidence and not act accordingly, just as the Buddha, by the practice in conformity with the Damma (3 . Thus, it is not sufficient to merely have confidence in the perfections the Buddha developed during his former lives, but we should also apply these perfections in daily life. If we express our confidence merely by words, even though there is kusala citta at that moment, but we do not act accordingly by the right practice, we shall not reach the goal. We may consider the perfections that we begin to develop. We wish to listen to the Dhamma and to learn about the practice in accordance with the Dhamma. We need the perfection of energy, viriya, in order to be able to listen. If there is no energy or right effort, we do not come to listen to the Dhamma, but we rather listen to another subject that gives us pleasure and entertainment. When we listen to the Dhamma we also need the perfection of patience, khanti, because sometimes we have to listen to what does not interest us so much. Without patience we cannot develop the other perfections such as the perfection of morality, síla. Without the perfection of síla we shall transgress morality by our deeds and speech. It is most important with whom we associate. The ascetic Akitti said with regard to himself that he did not wish to see, to hear or to be close to fools. The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² compares association with fools to the tasting of water that has a bitter, unpleasant flavour, and association with wise persons to the tasting of sweet water. Footnote 3. Dhammanudhamma paìipatti: the practice of the Dhamma in conformity with the Dhamma (anudhamma). The practice of the Dhamma so that one attains supramundane Dhamma, enlightenment. 14552 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:07am Subject: An Internet Analogy Hi DSG, I was recently reading an interesting book, "You're What You Sense" by Dr. Suwanda Sugunasiri which included an Internet analogy. I expanded on the analogy and presented it to my Abhidhamma class. I think that you may find it interesting as well. Input = visible object / audible object Client Computer Hardware = eye base / ear base Client Computer Software = eye consciousness / ear consciousness Internet Service Provider = mind door Internet = namarupa Internet Hardware = mind base Internet Software = nama A person types information (input) into their computer (client hardware). The software on their computer (client software) processes the information and sends it to the Internet Service Provider, a gateway to the Internet used by a number of different clients. The Internet is made up of millions of computer servers running software which allows them to interact. Who Controls the Internet? ========================== Even though the Internet is incredibly complex, there is no single entity in control. Even though beings (namarupa) are incredibly complex, there is no "self" in control. This is the concept of anatta. What is the Internet? ===================== The Internet is a concept, an aggregate of ever-changing software and hardware. None of the components are the Internet and the Internet does not exist outside of the components. A being is a concept, an aggregate of ever-changing nama (mind) and rupa (body). None of the components (mind or body) are the being and the being does not exist outside of the components. How to Describe the Internet? ============================= Though hardware is necessary for the Internet to exist, it is best to treat hardware as a platform for software and focus on how hardware impacts the software (speed, capacity, etc.) rather than the technical details of the hardware (processors, etc.). What makes the Internet interesting and powerful is the interaction between software. Though rupa is necessary for a being to exist, it is best to treat rupa as a platform for nama and focus on how nama experiences rupa (solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion) rather than the technical details of rupa (protons, neutrons, electrons). What makes a being interesting and powerful is the interaction of nama. What Makes the Internet Work? ============================= In addition to being governed by the laws of physics (signal degradation, etc.), the foundation of the Internet is a set of rules that define how software interacts (TCP/IP, HTTP, etc.). The Internet is almost never at rest as there are almost always inputs arriving from one of the clients. In addition to being governed by the laws of utu-niyama (we all must age), the foundation of a being is a set of rules that define how nama interacts (citta-niyama, kamma-niyama). A being is almost never at rest as there are almost always external objects being apprehended by the five senses. How to Understand the Internet? =============================== One can never understand the internet looking at the macro-level (appearance of web pages, etc.). To truly understand the Internet, one must understand how the underlying hardware, software and rules work. One can never understand a being looking at the macro-level (personality, etc.). To truly understand a being, one must understand how the underlying rupa, nama and niyama work. Being an engineer by training, I found this analogy interesting - particularly the "Nobody controls the Internet = anatta" concept. Enjoy! Thanks, Rob M :-) 14553 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:59am Subject: ADL ch. 17 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 17 (4) When sound contacts the ear-sense, the panca-dvara-vajjana-citta (five-sense-door adverting- consciousness) which arises, has as its place of origin the hadaya-vatthu, but the hearing-consciousness has the sotappasada-rupa as its vatthu. All succeeding cittas of that process, however, have the hadaya-vatthu as their place of origin. All cittas of the mind-door process too have the hadaya-vatthu as their place of origin. Vithi-vimutti-cittas which experience an object without dependence on any door, also have a physical place of origin. Although they are not dependent on any doorway, they could not, in the planes where there are both nama and rupa, arise without a vatthu. A new life begins when the patisandhi-citta arises; however, there is not only nama, there has to be rupa as well. The hadaya-vatthu is the rupa which is the vatthu of the patisandhi-citta. All bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta have the hadaya-vatthu as their physical base. The five kinds of pasada-rupa are the vatthus of the panca-vinnanas. As regards the vatthu of the two types of kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness, which can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka), this can arise all over the body. Any part of the body which has sensitivity, can be vatthu for the kaya-vinnana. The vatthu is the place of origin not only of citta, but also of cetasikas arising together with the citta. Thus, except in the planes of existence where there is only nama there has to be rupakkhandha as well when the four namakkhandhas arise. It is useful to classify citta by way of kicca (function), arammana (object), dvara (doorway), vatthu, and in many other ways. In this way we will have a clearer understanding of citta. We should, however, remember that this kind of understanding is not yet the wisdom which eradicates lobha, dosa and moha. In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Khnadha-vagga, Kindred Sayings about Radha, Ch.I, par. 4, To be understood) we read: At Savatthi . As he thus sat at one side the Exalted One thus addressed the venerable Radha: -- 'I will show you the things to be understood, and the understanding, and the person who has understood. Do you listen to it.' The Exalted One thus spoke: 'And what, Radha, are the things to be understood? Body, Radha, is a thing to be understood: so is feeling, perception, the activities. Consciousness is a thing to be understood. These, Radha, are the things to be understood. And what, Radha, is understanding? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of ignorance,--this, Radha, is called 'understanding'. And who, Radha, is the person who has understood? 'Worthy' should he be called, that venerable one of such and such a name, of such and such a clan - - that, Radha, is the meaning of 'the person who has understood'.' Sometimes the Buddha reminded people of the purpose of the teachings in a longer discourse, sometimes in a shorter discourse, but one has to be often reminded of the goal. What is the purpose of understanding, if it does not lead to the eradication of defilements? Questions 1. Can citta know arammana without being dependent on any doorway? 2. Through how many doors can citta know arammana? 3. Through how many doors does panca-dvaravajjana-citta (sense-door-adverting-consciousness) experience an object? 4. Through how many doors does mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) experience an object? 5. Through how many doors does sota-vinnana (hearing-consciousness) experience an object? 6. Through how many doors does santirana-citta perform the function of santirana (investigating)? 7. Does santirana-citta perform the function of patisandhi independent on a doorway? 8. Of how many cittas is cakkhu-vatthu (eye-base) the vatthu? 9. Of how many ahetuka cittas is hadaya-vatthu (heart-base) the vatthu? 10. Can the sotappasada-rupa (ear-sense) be dvara (door) or vatthu (base) or both? 11. What are the respective functions of dvara and vatthu? 14554 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: sutta study, to Howard Hi, Howard, you quoted a sutta with your own additions between brackets, it is a very interesting one, and now I cannot find your text, but I decided to go to the Commmentary. I think you suggested that this sutta contained a message on samatha as a stepping stone, and also you thought that desire in the translation was lobha, and, you added as your own comment, even for outside rupa. I hope I do not misrepresent what you meant. This is the sutta: Gradual Sayings, Book of Tens, Ch VI, §8, Rooted in the Exalted One. The Buddha asked the monks what they should answer when wanderers of other views would ask them: The Buddha said that they should answer thus: Nibbana is also explained as nir-vana, no vana, craving. We have to see here what is stressed: the long way out of samsara, the cycle, developed and then leading to arahatship. It is also said, "when someone is developing serenity and insight", *when*. Thus, here is a limitation. And see the function of samadhi, does that warrant an absolute necessity for everybody to develop samatha to the degree of jhana? Each sutta needs a thorough study, and then we find that matters are much more intricate then we thought at first. The same for the anapana sati sutta, we have to study each tetrad (group of four) mentioned in the course of development. It is not as simple as it may seem to be. What exactly is to be known, when concentrating on breath? To whom has the sutta been spoken, to laypeople, to monks with different accumulations? Some of them were highly gifted and could attain arahatship with the four discriminative knowledges, but not all. In what way can this practice bring to fulfilment the four satipatthanas? Next week I come back to this subject. (weekends are busy for me.) It actually falls under the study of Visuddhimagga under the leadership of Jon and Rob Ep. I am glad they both take it all in such good spirit, both braving the high waves. They wrote: > Yes, I think we'll make a good team (between us covering the 2 extremes of > view!!) > > Jon Rob Ep: ha ha. well I finally got this post, just in time for a good chuckle. yup, what's fun is to know you're on one extreme or the other and to just see it as 'conditions'. Best wishes from Nina. 14555 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] sutta study, to Howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/26/02 1:02:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Hi, Howard, > you quoted a sutta with your own additions between brackets, it is a very > interesting one, and now I cannot find your text, but I decided to go to > the > Commmentary. I think you suggested that this sutta contained a message on > samatha as a stepping stone, -------------------------------------------- Howard: Concentration, actually, not samatha. ------------------------------------------- and also you thought that desire in the> > translation was lobha, and, you added as your own comment, even for outside > rupa. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on what you are saying here, Nina, with regard to "outside rupa", and I didn't mention "lobha" -------------------------------------------- I hope I do not misrepresent what you meant.> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here is the sutta as i quoted it with my comments inserted: It may be, O monks, that wandering ascetics of another persuasion might ask you: "In what are things rooted? How do they come to actual existence? Where do they arise? Where do they converge? What is the foremost in all things? What is their master? What is the highest of all things? What is the essence of all things? Where do all things merge? Where do they end? If you are thus questioned, monks, you should reply as follows: "All things are rooted in desire. {Do our desires create birdsounds outside the house, or do they create birdsounds as the content of auditory experience?}. They come to actual existence through attention.{Through *attention*!! Does our attention create external hardness, external sounds, external colors, or does our attention create the content of our experience? Yet it is said here that attention is what brings all things to *actual existence*!}, originate from contact {So, without contact, there is no sound, no color, etc. It is said here that all things originate from contact, that is, they don't exist on their own!}, and converge in feeling. The foremost of all things is concentration {So, concentration is not only important, but is "the foremost of all things."}. All things are mastered by mindfulness. Their peak is wisdom, there essence liberation. All things merge in the deathless, and Nibbana is their culmination." ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is the sutta:> > Gradual Sayings, Book of Tens, Ch VI, §8, Rooted in the Exalted One. The > Buddha asked the monks what they should answer when wanderers of other > views > would ask them: compounded > of what, arising from what, conjoined in what, headed by what, ruled over > by > what, having what as ultimate, of what essence, into what plunging, ending > up in what are all things?> > The Buddha said that they should answer thus: > are all things, originating from contact, conjoined in feeling (text has > sensation), headed by concentration, ruled over by mindfulness, having > wisdom as ultimate are all things, having release for their essence, > plunging into the deathless, with nibbana for their conclusion are all > things" > > First a few word meanings from the Thai Pali: desire here stands for > chanda, > desire to do which can be kusala or akusala. Thinking stands here for > manasikara, attention. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. That matches the version I quoted. ---------------------------------------------------- This is the foundation. Concentration is the> > translation of samadhi, ekaggata cetasika. > The Co is short, but I shall go to a similar text in the Patisambhida magga > with Co. > First the Co to this sutta: this talk on amata, the deathless, speaks about > saupadisesa nibbana: nibbana with the khandhas remaining. Thus, with > nibbana > as conclusion refers to upadisesa nibbana dhatu (element). The Bhikkhu who > has attained this is called someone who attained the highest dhamma in all > respects. > The end. > Now a similar passage in the Path of Discrimination, Treatise on Knowledge, > § 43: > Zeal (chanda) through its meaning of root , is to be directly known. > Attention (manasikara) through its meaning of originating.. Contact, > through > its meaning of combining ( the internal and external bases for contact)... > Feeling, through its meaning of meeting place (for craving)... > Concentration, through its meaning of being foremost (in marshalling other > cetasikas)... Mindfulness, through its meaning of dominance (in > establishing > the supporting object)... Understanding, through its meaning of being > highest of all... Deliverance, through its meaning of core, is to be > directly known. Nibbana which merges into the deathless, through its > meaning > of ending is to be directly known. > Now the Co to this, given in a note by the translator. BTW you will see > that > this is Dependent Origination in the opposite direction, patiloma, away > from > samsara. > Co: way of practice and what is produced by that. It is wise attention (yoniso > manasikara) that originates all profitable dhammas. Feeling is the > principal > reason for craving; and when craving is being abandoned that is accompl > ished > especially by the full understanding of feeling. Again contact is the > principal reason for feeling, and when that is fully understood feeling is > fully understood. That is why contact is mentioned first among the seven > remaining dhammas to be directly known. Now contact is defined by its own > action, which is the "coincidence of the three (eye, visible object and > eye-consciousness), and since it is thus manifested as the coincidence of a > triad it has the meaning of combining. Again, when feeling gets citta and > cetasikas into its power it meets them, enters them, or it enters the > cognizant continuity as well. That is why it has the meaning of meeting > place. Then, just as the peak of a round roof locks all the rafters > together, so concentration is the foremost, the topmost, of all profitable > dhammas in focussing citta and cetasikas, which is why it has the meaning > of > foremost. Mindfulness has the meaning of dominance, when someone is > developing serenity and insight it is dominant in the establishment of the > object, and when mindfulness is established then all profitable dhammas > perform their various functions with respect to this object. The > understanding belonging to the noble path has the meaning of being the > highest of all, the foremost of all those profitable dhammas, and surpasses > them all. The deliverance of the path's fruition is solid since it suffers > no loss and for that reason it has the meaning of core (heartwood). > Deathless is said because there is no dying there, and because it is free > from poison through its being the opposite of defilement. It is the dhamma > (text translates dhamma as idea) because it gives a footing for beings by > realization. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I've seen that before. It's an odd translation I think. ---------------------------------------------------- It is called nibbana because it has peace from the suffering of> > the round of rebirths. It is called nibbana too, because there is no > craving > called vana there. Since that is the goal of the Dispensation it has the > meaning of end.> > > Nibbana is also explained as nir-vana, no vana, craving. > > > We have to see here what is stressed: the long way out of samsara, the > cycle, developed and then leading to arahatship. It is also said, "when > someone is developing serenity and insight", *when*. Thus, here is a > limitation. And see the function of samadhi, does that warrant an absolute > necessity for everybody to develop samatha to the degree of jhana? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I don't know. The sutta does say that concentration (samadhi) is foremost in all things. It doesn't talk about samatha, an outgrowth of samadhi. ------------------------------------------------- > Each sutta needs a thorough study, and then we find that matters are much > more intricate then we thought at first. The same for the anapana sati > sutta, we have to study each tetrad (group of four) mentioned in the course > of development. It is not as simple as it may seem to be. What exactly is > to > be known, when concentrating on breath? To whom has the sutta been spoken, > to laypeople, to monks with different accumulations? Some of them were > highly gifted and could attain arahatship with the four discriminative > knowledges, but not all. In what way can this practice bring to fulfilment > the four satipatthanas? Next week I come back to this subject. (weekends > are > busy for me.) > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: My primary point in quoting and commenting on this sutta was with regard to the phenomenalist perspective. ---------------------------------------------------- > It actually falls under the study of Visuddhimagga under the leadership of > Jon and Rob Ep. I am glad they both take it all in such good spirit, both > braving the high waves. > They wrote: > > Yes, I think we'll make a good team (between us covering the 2 extremes > of > > view!!) > > > > Jon > > Rob Ep: ha ha. well I finally got this post, just in time for a good > chuckle. yup, > what's fun is to know you're on one extreme or the other and to just see it > as > 'conditions'. > > Best wishes from > Nina. > ================================ Thanks for the commentaries, Nina. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14556 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:49pm Subject: postcard from Noosa Dear All, Having an action-packed long dhamma weekend with friends here....We arrived, knowing we'd be joining up with Christine, but not sure who if anyone else..... Well, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed having spent a second wonderful day of having very relaxed dhamma discussions in a beautiful location with DSG friends and reuniting with other very dear dhamma friends neither of us had seen for over 20 years;-)) For us, we start with an early morning, c000ld (if not freezing) swim and jog to warm up on the golden sand here, followed by a breakfast in an outdoor restaurant on the beach with Chris, her daughter,Sarah F, Ken H, his lurking DSG friend Andrew, Azita and the other old friends, all of whom Nina will remember - Jill Jordan, Richard Giles, Sundhara (was Bhikkhu Sundharo in Sri Lanka when we last met, Gillian Pechey and another young couple....Lots of discussion of present realities -- different lifestyles, accumulations and life events not withstanding --...the value of hearing dhamma, good friends, how easily led astray we are by kilesa and especially lobha....the relative unimportance of other interests...no self, no turn-off key for akusala, the futility of searching for personality or accumulation changes and so on.... So after the 6hour breakfast (with a few changes of location, searching for the 'not too sunny', 'not too shady', 'just right' spot).....5 mins break before a nearly 3hr'magical'walk through the eucalyptus woods, round the cliffs, down to the nudist beach (too cool for any nudists), back via 'hells Gates' and 'Fairy Pools', combining lots of lobha for the visible objects, sounds, smells, feelings and stories with dhamma discussion and questions and usually inadequate comments (from me)...... Lots of laughs and fun all the time...And also, opportunities for metta a nd khanti...listening, considering, being friendly and helpful, wishing others well instead of thinking of oneself. Sometimes the opportunities are lost, but whether there is metta or aversion or any other reality, it's conditioned as it is at this moment and is not self. Tomorrow some of us will meet up again and I hope some of the others will report with their own impressions and comments...I'm sure Chris will manage to include the koala, the owl, the turkeys and any other creatures she spotted while the rest of us were talking too much.... I'd better sign off before I lose these cryptic comments (as happened to a post I wrote from a Bondi internet cafe).. With thanks to all those who we've met up with here who have made our visit so memorable and dhamma-packed..... Sarah ====== p.s We've been printing out and reading all the gret posts in our absence and will speak again from Hong Kong if not before. 14557 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight Victor Thanks. Would you like to share with us your understanding of the instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta? Jon --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Jon, > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand that you have > doubts about my approach. > > What is my approach? To make it clear, it is to follow the Buddha's > instruction on being mindful of breathing as recorded in > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > Regards, > Victor 14558 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Rob Ep I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). Perhaps 'in brief' will do... 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? It's great value is that it is kusala. 3. What role *does* it play in the development of insight/enlightenment/liberation? All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of kusala such as samatha. Jon --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Dear Jon, Your points are well taken, and they lead me to a question: if samatha is [possibly] not necessary as a condition for vipassana; and if samatha is as difficult to attain as vipassana; but the attainment of enlightenment with samatha is a higher attainment than of enlightenment alone; what is it that samatha is *necessary* for; what is it's great value as far as you know so far; and what role *does* it play in the development of insight/enlightenment/liberation? I know it's a big question, but I am only asking for a temporary clarification on the way; sometimes I forget simple things and suddenly don't know what I'm talking about....or perhaps that is just the development of a bit of insight on my own lack of understanding.... : / Best, Robert Ep. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14559 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Hi, Jon (and Rob) - In a message dated 7/27/02 6:05:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > Rob Ep > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Please excuse me for butting in. -------------------------------------------------- > I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). Perhaps 'in > brief' will do... > > 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? > As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for > anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). > > 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? > It's great value is that it is kusala. > > 3. What role *does* it play in the development of > insight/enlightenment/liberation? > All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of > dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of > kusala such as samatha. > > Jon > ================================ How's this? Samatha is a condition for the development of samadhi. Actually, they are mutually supportive, but the stating of calm as leading to concentration is frequent. (Generally, an upset mind has trouble concentrating, and a calm mind has little trouble.) As you say, calm is precondition for the jhanas, with calm easing the way to increasing one-pointedness. In many places, the first four jhanas are the definition of right concentration. (Yes, right concentration is also defined otherwise in a few places, but most often and prominently as the first four jhanas.) And right concentration is one of the factors of the 8-fold path, none of which do I recall reading is expendable. Pa~n~na is what directly leads to liberation, and mindfulness is probably the chief factor leading to wisdom itself. Mindfulness, of course, fosters calm and concentration, which in turn foster more mindfulness. What I don't understand is why you seem to wish to downplay concentration and calm. Even if they don't take a leadership role, what bothers you about them? Right effort is another thing that seems to bother you a bit. My guess is that you are concerned with an emphasis on these leading to or springing from an atta view which accepts a controlling agent. Am I correct in that? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14560 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight Hi, Jon, If you are making effort to put the instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta, and if there is any part of the instruction that you don't understand, then it might be a good idea to bring up your questions on what you don't understand to the dsg members' attention. In this way, you might get some responses that are helpful to your development of mindfulness of breathing, if you are making effort to develop it in the first place. Regards, Victor --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Thanks. Would you like to share with us your understanding of the > instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the Anapanasati > Sutta? > > Jon > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Jon, > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand that you have > > doubts about my approach. > > > > What is my approach? To make it clear, it is to follow the Buddha's > > instruction on being mindful of breathing as recorded in > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > > > Regards, > > Victor 14561 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Hello All, I forwarded the following post to a friend recently. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14299 I got a response, to which I responded. I am wondering about how to answer my own questions. So, 1) Any comments about the exchange will be appreciated 2) Answers to the questions will be appreciated. Thanks! kom -----Original Message----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:12 AM Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Dear ..., Thanks for the response. Here are more comments! -----Original Message----- From: ... Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 1:39 AM To: Kom Tukovinit Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. VTK: This is my point. Meditation does not mean that we have to sit cross-legged to attain maka pala nippana. It can be any moments and any positions (sitting, walking, standing, and sleeping) as long as we are mindful. Ananda attained the first path when he was laying down on his bed. [KT] On this point I think we agree. (BTW, Anada attained arahantship when he was laying down on his bed) VTK: In addition, the right conditions that they had already developed for aeons might have included intensive meditation practice, so that they could be more mindful during their daily life when they attained arahantship. [KT] Now this point we have to discuss a bit further (to see how different/similar we are). Let me ask you the following questions (which you may choose to answer or not, according to your own understanding and preferences): 1) What is a meditation practice? For example, is it being at a specific place at a specific time? Is there a rule that we must follow in order for it to be a meditation practice? What are the specific results/progress of a practice? Do we have to be at peace to practice? Do we have to follow rituals that we don't normally follow in order to be called practice? If we now mindful of the realities that are occuring now, is that a practice? 2) Does what we learn about realities from the Buddha the same as what we "observe" in the practice? Or do we learn one thing, and during the practice, we observe another? 3) What do we learn when we "practice"? Is it the same or different from what we learn in hearing and considering? 4) What's the difference between "sati" and "wanting to observe what's going on?" 5) Does wanting more sati a condition for the rising of more sati? Does the intention to observe realities a condition for the rising of sati? [Nina] They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of daily life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. VTK: The question is how to be more mindful of nama and rupa in daily life, especially when our untrained mind is everywhere. I think that is why it is important to have intensive training of being mindful. If we only learn martial arts, like boxing, kung-fu, judo, etc., how to do it, but never really practice, how can we use the arts when the time comes? Same as sathit. If we do not develop our sathit or mindfulness, how can we use it when the time comes? [KT] OK. Since I think I ask you enough questions above, I will give an opinion here. My understanding of mindfulness is, we become more mindful as we understand more (not just knowing the theories, but undestanding from oberservations in daily life) the benefits of sati, and drawbacks/disadvantages of not being mindful. If you know there are dangers of crossing the road without looking, you are more careful in crossing the roads. The more we are familiar with the realities that are objects of sati, and we are reminded about realities and sati (because of understading what we hear, because of understanding resulted from consideration), the more opportunities there are for sati to arises. (Counter-example) We develop habbit by doing something repeatedly over time, do we not? We can even learn in that particular mode, and become *very* good at what we do, even without going through an intensive learning session. Being in an intensive session doesn't guarantee being able to apply what we learn, or being good at it. The above are counter-examples of how to develop normal habbit, but it is not the same as developing vipassana. Developing vipassana is unlike all the other habbits that we have developed in our lives, from the aspect that it must be led by wisdom, not by fear, sadness, or disappointment in life, not by attachment or wanting, and definitely not by ignorance. Without the right understandings about what the path (to nibbana) is, then no progress is possible, even if we may learn something. VTK: Another important question is that I do not know whether I have already been developing the right conditions to attain maka pala nippana. Since I do not know, I believe that I need to develop both theory, which is the Buddha's teachings, as well as practice, which is mindfulness and concentration. [KT] One cannot reach nibbana without the practice (pati-pati), but the question that I think is of paramount importance is what is the right practice? If we have the wrong pratice, there is no progress, and we accumulate more inclinations to do even more of the wrong practice in the future. If we have the right practice, then wisdom will develop, and wisdom develops very slowly. You may notice that in order to become a Buddha, the boddhisatta had to develop the 10 perfections (including wisdom) for 4 aeons. That, in our time frame, is *very* slow. A disciple of the Buddha will not take as long, but it would be in numerous lifetimes. If we are focused on making "progress", we may be lured into doing the wrong pratice because we hope that the wrong practice may allow us to develop faster. For me, ensuring/verifying that something is the right practice is very important because the right practice is the only way that we may progress in the path. Now, let me ask you more questions, which you may choose to answer or not, according to your own understandings. From the followings, what are the paths, what are not the paths, what are the factors contributing to the path, what are not the factors contributing to the path? What are the teachings of the Buddha, what are not the teachings of the Buddha? 1) Doing things slowly like walking slowly, eating slowly? 2) Oberserving silence, not speaking to each other, regardless of what the topics of discussions? 3) Observing the sila, like the 5, the 8, or the 227? 4) Being mindful of realities that are appearing? 5) Wanting to be more mindful? 6) Hearing the dhamma? 7) Considering the dhamma? 8) Mental peacefulness? Being free from the thoughts that cause us discomfort? 9) Eating only twice a day? 10) Discussing the dhamma? 14562 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight Correction: "If you are making effort to put the instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta ,...." --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi, Jon, > > If you are making effort to put the instruction on being mindful of > breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta, and if there is any > part of the instruction that you don't understand, then it might be a > good idea to bring up your questions on what you don't understand to > the dsg members' attention. In this way, you might get some > responses that are helpful to your development of mindfulness of > breathing, if you are making effort to develop it in the first place. > > Regards, > Victor > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Victor > > > > Thanks. Would you like to share with us your understanding of the > > instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the > Anapanasati > > Sutta? > > > > Jon > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Jon, > > > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand that you > have > > > doubts about my approach. > > > > > > What is my approach? To make it clear, it is to follow the > Buddha's > > > instruction on being mindful of breathing as recorded in > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor 14563 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 4:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Hi Kom, here's my answers to your two sets of questions: 1) What is a meditation practice? Larry: Relaxed attention to a single subject; may or may not be contemplative. For example, is it being at a specific place at a specific time? L: yes, what place is not specific? Is there a rule that we must follow in order for it to be a meditation practice? L: yes, one pointed (ekaggata) What are the specific results/progress of a practice? L: results = enlightenment, progress = peaceful, calm, fewer worries, fewer desires, realization of anatta by degrees from shallow to deep to complete Do we have to be at peace to practice? L: yes, although agitation may be an object of meditation Do we have to follow rituals that we don't normally follow in order to be called practice? L: yes, if our normal life is careless If we are now mindful of the realities that are occuring now, is that a practice? L: yes, if we are robbing a bank with mindfulness, there is still a tiny bit of practice involved 2) Is what we learn about realities from the Buddha the same as what we "observe" in the practice? Or do we learn one thing, and during the practice, we observe another? L: We learn a mountain of concepts and observe a few realities 3) What do we learn when we "practice"? Is it the same or different from what we learn in hearing and considering? L: I don't think we 'learn' calmness from answering email questions 4) What's the difference between "sati" and "wanting to observe what's going on?" L: Sati isn't particularly curious 5) Is wanting more sati a condition for the rising of more sati? L: yes, desire condition Is the intention to observe realities a condition for the rising of sati? L: yes, intention condition Kom: From the following, what are the paths, what are not the paths, what are the factors contributing to the path, what are not the factors contributing to the path? What are the teachings of the Buddha, what are not the teachings of the Buddha? 1) Doing things slowly like walking slowly, eating slowly? 2) Oberserving silence, not speaking to each other, regardless of what the topics of discussions? 3) Observing the sila, like the 5, the 8, or the 227? 4) Being mindful of realities that are appearing? 5) Wanting to be more mindful? 6) Hearing the dhamma? 7) Considering the dhamma? 8) Mental peacefulness? Being free from the thoughts that cause us discomfort? 9) Eating only twice a day? 10) Discussing the dhamma? Larry: all the above are factors contributing to the path and teachings of the Buddha. what are your answers? Larry 14564 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:27am Subject: khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi all, whilst investigating khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) I came across the following snippet which bears on the ongoing discussion of mindfulness of breathing. There is actually very little discussion of this particular samadhi in Visuddhimagga, so if anyone knows of a fuller exposition on khanika samadhi, please pass it along. I also have a short comment at the end. The following is a word commentary on the line "He trains thus 'I shall breathe in concentrating the [manner of] consciousness'; he trains thus 'I shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness." (S. v, 321-2) "Concentrating (samadaham) the [manner of] consciousness:" evenly (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and to fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics [of impermanence. and so on]. Thus the words 'He trains thus "I shall breathe in...shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness" ', are said also of one who evenly places the mind, evenly puts it on its object by means of the momentary unification of the mind arisen thus. Vism VIII 232 Larry: This seems to indicate that khanika samadhi is preceded by the first jhana but another modern source offered it as an alternative to access or absorption concentration. Whatever the case may be, the point seems to be that khanika samadhi is recognizing the meditation object as exemplifying the three characteristics (anicca, dhukkha, anatta). This is welcome news as almost any kind of family and work is an obstacle which must be abandoned for an extended period of time in order to enter jhana. So my understanding is that recognizing (in momentary concentration) the three characteristics satisfies the sammasamadhi part of the 8fold path. How do you see it? Larry 14565 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati - [Larry/Jon] Hi Larry. I haven't had occasion to answer your posts in the past, although I have noticed how studious and dedicated to the subject you are. But in this case you've hit upon an area that is very intriguing to me. I am not only very interested in the role that the jhana may play in preparing the mind for an act of mindfulness after the fact, as this commentary may suggest, but I am also extremely interested in the language of the commentary you have quoted. It is always interesting for me to note that the actual language of the commentaries, even though it is in translation, is very intriguing and sophisticated. It always seems to represent a kind of philosophical understanding that is illuminating. Anyway, to start with what you said about the commentary implying that the momentary act of mindfulness would satisfy the requirement for samasamadhi in the noble eightfold path, I will not attempt to comment directly on that, since it would display my woeful ignorance of the subject, but I will comment on the topic in a more general way. it seems to me from the quote you have given, that the jhanas seem to play a role in what the commentator is talking about, even in the last instance when evenness of mindfulness is attributed to one who engages discerns the chararacteristics of the object in momentary discernment. It is at least interesting that the entire segment of the commentary quoted uses immersion in jhana as its example. First the commentator talks about penetration "... by means of the first jhana and so on.", meaning the other jhanas I presume. Then the commentator gives his alternate example, which takes place *after* return from the jhanas: "Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and to fall..." I'm not sure if we can put aside the fact that this act of waking discernment is taking place on the heels of immersion in the jhanas. Is it possible that the preparation of the mind through the jhanas is what allows the discernment of the three characteristics upon return from the jhanas? I think this is implied. It is clear in any case, by the ubiquitous presence of the jhanas in the example, that the commentator is speaking to, or at least about, an advanced practitioner who is regularly going in and out of the jhanas. This should not only be interesting from those who have thought that abhidhamma does not take the jhanas as a necessary structural object, but also for those like Jon and myself who are engaged in the ongoing assessment of the role of the jhanas in satisfying Right Concentration. It seems that the commentaries are directed to abhidhammists who are indeed quite involved with the practice of the jhanas. Thank you so much for finding this commentary! If there is more material on the jhanas in here, I would be very interested in hearing about it. Perhaps Jon has this commentary as well, and can look at it for our jhana project. The other thing that I found even more intriguing about this commentary, are the turns of phrase which I think are badly in need of a sub-commentary, if there is one, to explain what they mean. And perhaps a sub-sub-commentary and translational key from our resident scholars. I won't mention any names. [hint] Here are the terms that I find incredibly intriguing. Perhaps for some on the list, they will be well-known and easily explained: 1. "evenly placing the mind...[on the object of meditation]..." "Evenly placing the mind..." Isn't that wonderful? This language does not seem as precise as some of the abhidhammic language I'm used to hearing, but is very satisfying for its imagery. Since there is only a given citta discerning its one object in conjunction with cetasikas, what would it mean in a given moment to 'evenly place the mind', and how and/or by who is the mind so evenly placed? The idea that the mind can have evenness or unevenness in its approach to discernment is extremely intriguing. Evenness as a synonym for mindfulness as it seems to be here, is even more interesting. 2. "...momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics..." "Momentary unification of the mind." Wow. Isn't that beautiful? These two phrases, "Evenly placing the mind", and "Momentary unification of the mind" are absolutely poetic, they are very pleasing, and so I wonder if they are meant imagistically, or whether the commentator means them to be literal. If literal, well, I think I'll sign up right away, because I like the sense of these actions very much. Now, what would it mean to cause 'unification' of the mind through discernment of the three characteristics of all dhammas. How does the mind become unified? Does it mean that the citta in question has a kind of harmony with all the accompanying cetasikas, that none of them has ignorance as a characteristic and thus there is no barrier to their being totally self-discerning in that moment; does it mean that there is no separation between the citta and its object through the opacity of not seeing what it really is? In the metaphoric sense, it sounds like this means that the citta is transparent to its object and itself and takes in the object completely as it is with no resistance or separation. If that is the case, it would be a highly enlightened citta, and so it makes sense that this is given as an advanced moment of insight. But I would be extremely interested to hear the sub-commentary of one of the ancient commentators, or of one of our modern commentators on the list. 3/ Last of all, I would just like to point out the conjunction of these two terms in the 'final product' of the commentary: "...one who evenly places the mind, evenly puts it on its object by means of the momentary unification of the mind arisen thus." One who evenly places the mind, meaning one who evenly puts it on its object; and the reason they are able to put it evenly on the object is because of the momentary unification of mind facilitated by the moment of insight in which the object is seen truly for its three overriding characteristics of anicca, anatta and dukkha. So: the meditator emerges from the jhanas, and as he returns to reflective consciousness, he has a moment of insight in which he understands that even the jhana which he had been immersed in, a high state of concentration, is also impermanent, lacking a self, and ultimately unsatisfying. And at the very moment when he realizes this about the jhana, his mind becomes unified via this insight, and throught his unification of mind he sees the jhana truly for what it is, just another arising and falling dhamma. This unifies his mind, and with his mind thus unified, he is able to place the mind evenly upon the object and discern it with complete evenness. Going back to the beginning of the quote, remember that the commentator starts by saying that the initial way in which the object may be approached with evenness is via the jhana itself. Within the jhanas, the commentator speaks of "evenly (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhana and so on...". And I think it is pretty clear that in saying this, the commentator is saying that the jhanas themselves are indeed a means by which true discernment can be gained. I'll be interested in the response of Jon and others. I think there's an awful lot to explore here. Thanks again, Larry, for opening this up. Best, Robert Ep. ===================== --- <> wrote: > Hi all, whilst investigating khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) I > came across the following snippet which bears on the ongoing discussion > of mindfulness of breathing. There is actually very little discussion of > this particular samadhi in Visuddhimagga, so if anyone knows of a fuller > exposition on khanika samadhi, please pass it along. I also have a short > comment at the end. > > The following is a word commentary on the line "He trains thus 'I shall > breathe in concentrating the [manner of] consciousness'; he trains thus > 'I shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness." (S. > v, 321-2) > > "Concentrating (samadaham) the [manner of] consciousness:" evenly > (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by > means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having > entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with > insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to > destruction and to fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary > unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the > characteristics [of impermanence. and so on]. Thus the words 'He trains > thus "I shall breathe in...shall breathe out concentrating the [manner > of] consciousness" ', are said also of one who evenly places the mind, > evenly puts it on its object by means of the momentary unification of > the mind arisen thus. Vism VIII 232 > > Larry: This seems to indicate that khanika samadhi is preceded by the > first jhana but another modern source offered it as an alternative to > access or absorption concentration. Whatever the case may be, the point > seems to be that khanika samadhi is recognizing the meditation object as > exemplifying the three characteristics (anicca, dhukkha, anatta). ... ...So my understanding is that recognizing (in momentary > concentration) the three characteristics satisfies the sammasamadhi part > of the 8fold path. How do you see it? > > Larry 14566 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Good questions, Howard. Thanks for asking them, and I will sign on to your questions and wait for Jon's answer. Best, Robert Ep. ============= --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Rob) - > > In a message dated 7/27/02 6:05:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > > > Rob Ep > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Please excuse me for butting in. > -------------------------------------------------- > > > I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). Perhaps 'in > > brief' will do... > > > > 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? > > As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for > > anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). > > > > 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? > > It's great value is that it is kusala. > > > > 3. What role *does* it play in the development of > > insight/enlightenment/liberation? > > All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of > > dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of > > kusala such as samatha. > > > > Jon > > > ================================ > How's this? Samatha is a condition for the development of samadhi. > Actually, they are mutually supportive, but the stating of calm as leading to > concentration is frequent. (Generally, an upset mind has trouble > concentrating, and a calm mind has little trouble.) As you say, calm is > precondition for the jhanas, with calm easing the way to increasing > one-pointedness. In many places, the first four jhanas are the definition of > right concentration. (Yes, right concentration is also defined otherwise in a > few places, but most often and prominently as the first four jhanas.) And > right concentration is one of the factors of the 8-fold path, none of which > do I recall reading is expendable. ...My guess is that you > are concerned with an emphasis on these leading to or springing from an atta > view which accepts a controlling agent. Am I correct in that? > > With metta, > Howard 14567 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). Not complete, but useful for the moment. Perhaps 'in > brief' will do... Sure, that'll do. > 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? > As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for > anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). > > 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? > It's great value is that it is kusala. > > 3. What role *does* it play in the development of > insight/enlightenment/liberation? > All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of > dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of > kusala such as samatha. It seems to me that if samatha were only valued in being kusala, that it would a rather arbitrary state. If only for efficiency, Buddha would not choose an arbitrary object. He would choose it not only for being a kusala state, but one which had a special characteristic that was necessary for enlightenment. Samatha is calmness or peacefulness. So my question would be: What is the special value of peacefulness in the noble eightfold path? If there is none, then it is very strange that samatha is hanging around there, with no special purpose other than being a kusala state. Even stranger that samatha is so highly valued among Buddhists, if it has no real importance. Why does the Buddha himself say that enlightenment with samatha is a higher attainment than enlightenment without it? There's got to be a good reason, and it will point to the intrinsic value of samatha as a support or facilitator of wisdom. Best, Robert Ep. 14568 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 5:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/27/02 8:29:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi all, whilst investigating khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) I > came across the following snippet which bears on the ongoing discussion > of mindfulness of breathing. There is actually very little discussion of > this particular samadhi in Visuddhimagga, so if anyone knows of a fuller > exposition on khanika samadhi, please pass it along. I also have a short > comment at the end. > > The following is a word commentary on the line "He trains thus 'I shall > breathe in concentrating the [manner of] consciousness'; he trains thus > 'I shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness." (S. > v, 321-2) > > "Concentrating (samadaham) the [manner of] consciousness:" evenly > (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by > means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having > entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with > insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to > destruction and to fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary > unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the > characteristics [of impermanence. and so on]. Thus the words 'He trains > thus "I shall breathe in...shall breathe out concentrating the [manner > of] consciousness" ', are said also of one who evenly places the mind, > evenly puts it on its object by means of the momentary unification of > the mind arisen thus. Vism VIII 232 > > Larry: This seems to indicate that khanika samadhi is preceded by the > first jhana but another modern source offered it as an alternative to > access or absorption concentration. Whatever the case may be, the point > seems to be that khanika samadhi is recognizing the meditation object as > exemplifying the three characteristics (anicca, dhukkha, anatta). This > is welcome news as almost any kind of family and work is an obstacle > which must be abandoned for an extended period of time in order to enter > jhana. So my understanding is that recognizing (in momentary > concentration) the three characteristics satisfies the sammasamadhi part > of the 8fold path. How do you see it? > > Larry > =========================== I may be misunderstanding this, of course, but it seems to me that this mainly discusses several things *other* than khanika samadhi: 1) using the base of a jhana to attend to things, 2) using the access concentration available upon emerging from a jhana to attend to the impermanence of the jhana itself, and 3) the powerful samadhi at the moment of the arising of wisdom (maybe of path consciousness?). In any case, none of this seems to me to be a traditional discussing of moment-to-moment concentration. Moment-to-moment concentration, BTW, from my own Goenka-retreat experience, *can* be an amazingly powerful, incisive tool for investigation - just not quite as stable as "deeper" states. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 10:00pm Subject: Perfections Ch 3, no. 6 Perfections, Ch 3, no 6. Also the Bodhisatta had at times to associate with fools. For example, during one of his lives the Bodhisatta belonged to a clan of people with wrong view. In his life as the brahmin youth Jotipåla he was born into a family of people who had wrong view and no confidence in the Buddha 4. Jotipåla followed his parents in their disdain of the Buddha. The brahmins who had wrong view had no confidence in the Buddha Kassapa, who was the last Buddha before the Buddha Gotama. The Commentary to the ³Discourse on Ghatikåra², Middle Length Sayings, the ³Papañcasúdaní², deals with the accumulation of the perfections by the Bodhisatta until the life he was Jotipåla, when he came into contact with people of wrong view. The Commentary compared the accumulated perfections to a brightly shining fire which during that life came into contact with water and was therefore extinguished by it so that the rays of light disappeared and only black charcoal was left (5. We do not know our past lives but we can learn from the story of the Bodhisatta as Jotipåla: although he had accumulated the perfections to a high degree, he still associated with fools. We can learn that we should not be heedless and see the danger in association with fools. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct², in the ³Miscellaneous Sayings²: Now comes the method of practising the perfection of virtue (síla). Since the Great Man desires to adorn beings with the adornment of the virtue of the omniscient, at the beginning he must first purify his own virtue. Herein, virtue is purified in four modes: 1. by the purification of one¹s inclinations (ajjhåsayavisuddhi); 2. by the undertaking of precepts (samådåna); 3. by non-transgression (avítikkamana); 4. by making amends for transgressions (patipåkatikarana). In this way we can check síla in our daily life. We should know whether our síla is pure. We read: For someone who is dominated by personal ideals, is naturally disgusted with evil through the purity of his own inclinations and purifies his conduct by arousing his inward sense of shame (hiri). Someone else who is dominated by consideration for the world, afraid of evil, purifies his conduct by receiving precepts from another person and by arousing his sense of moral dread (ottappa) 6). Both establish themselves in virtue through non-transgression. But if, due to forgetfulness, they sometimes break a precept, through their sense of shame and moral dread, respectively, they quickly make amends for it through the proper means of rehabilitation. In these ways síla is purified. We read further on about the virtue of the Bodhisatta: When he speaks, his statements should be truthful, beneficial, and endearing, and his talk measured, timely, and concerned with the Dhamma. His mind should always be devoid of covetousness, ill-will, and perverted views. He should possess the knowledge of the ownership of kamma 7), and have settled faith and affection for recluses and brahmins who are faring and practising rightly... By desisting from false speech his word comes to be authoritive for others. He is regarded as reliable and trustworthy, one whose statements are always accepted. He is dear and agreeable to deities. His mouth gives off a sweet fragrance and he guards his bodily and vocal conduct. He achieves distinguished characteristics, and eradicates the mental impressions of the defilements 8) . Footnotes: 4. See Middle Length Sayings II, no. 81, On Ghatíkåra. 5. See also ³Milinda¹s Questions² II, The Dilemmas , Fifth Division, 6: Birth as Jotipåla. 6. The ³Atthasåliní² ( I, Part IV, Ch I, 125-127) explains that hiri, shame, has a subjective origin; its proximate cause is repect for oneself. Whereas ottappa, fear of blame or moral dread, has an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate cause is repect for someone else. Hiri and ottappa always arise together, but they have different characteristics. 7. Kammassakatå ñåùa, understanding that kamma is the cause of vipåka, result. Beings will receive the appropriate results of their deeds. 8. The Påli has: våsanå. Even arahats who have eradicated all defilements may still have a way of speech or action that is not agreeable to others. This is not motivated by akusala, but it is due to their habits in the past which have been accumulated. Only a Buddha can eradicate våsanå. 14570 From: <> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati - [Larry/Jon] Hi Robert, most of the questions you raise are beyond my ken but I would like to make a couple of comments and add some quotes from a modern teacher. First, it may not have been clear that I took the original material from the Visuddhimagga (Path Of Purification). And secondly, I think the reason many modern teachers, not just abhidhamma specialists, down-play jhana is that jhana is simply not going to happen for most people. The following is from "The Seven Stages of Purification and The Insight Knowledges" by The Venerable Mahathera Matara Sri Nanarama (BPS). This is a summary of the Visuddhimagga, which in turn is an expansion of a path scheme that is laid out in seven stages, found in one or two sutta. This quote comes from the second stage,"Purification of Mind", follows "Purification of Virtue", and preceeds "Purification Of View", at which stage discrimination of nama and rupa is made: "There are three kinds of concentration qualifying as Purification of Mind: access concentration (upacara-samadhi), absorption concentration (appana-samadhi), and momentary concentration (khanika-samadhi). The first two are achieved through the vehicle of serenity (samatha), the last through the vehicle of insight (vipassana). Momentary concentration possesses the same strength of mental unification as access concentration. Since it is equipped with the ten conditions mentioned above, and holds the five hindrances at bay, it aids the attainment of insight knowledge. However, because it does not serve directly as a basis for jhana as such, it is not called access concentration. " Later, at the end of the book in an appendix titled "Oneness": "One thing worth mentioning in this connection is that if the meditators practising insight meditation have already obtained either an access concentration or an absorption concentration through some kind of serenity meditation, it will be comparatively easy for them to achieve the desired results. On the other hand, one who takes up the practice of pure insight meditation without any prior experience in concentration will have to put forth, from the very start, an unremitting endeavor until the desired results are attained. He should, in fact, give up all expectations for his body and life in an all-out struggle to reach the Supreme Goal." Larry: The "desired result" and "oneness" both refer to concentration. At the beginning of this appendix is the following: "It is said in the "Patisambhidamagga": The mind cleansed in these six respects becomes purified and reaches oneness. And what are these onenesses? (1) Th oneness aroused by the recollection of liberality; (2) the oneness aroused by the occurence of the sign of serenity meditation; (3) the oneness aroused by the occurence of the characteristic of dissoution: and (4) the oneness aroused by the occurence of cessation. The oneness brought about by the recollection of liberality applies to those who are of a generous disposition. The oneness aroused by the ocurrence of the sign of serenity meditation is attainable by those who apply themselves to the development of the mind. The oneness aroused by the occurence of the characteristic of dissolution is peculiar to those who develop insight meditation. The oneness aroused by the occurence of cessation is an experience of the Noble Ones. Ps.I,166ff." L: one interesting point I take from this is that khanika samadhi (recognition of a/d/a) isn't insight knowledge. Larry 14571 From: <> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi Howard, I couldn't find a "traditional discussion of moment to moment concentration." Do you have a source? There is a lot on insight meditation of course; but my impression is that that is usually discussed as satipatthana, not samadhi. Larry 14572 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/28/02 2:35:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Howard, I couldn't find a "traditional discussion of moment to moment > concentration." Do you have a source? There is a lot on insight > meditation of course; but my impression is that that is usually > discussed as satipatthana, not samadhi. > > Larry > ========================== I shouldn't have written "traditional". All I've seen are secondary sources, by modern teachers, usually vipassana meditation teachers, such as Ven U Pandita and Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, who, for example, wrote the following (which I took from ATI: "Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for insight to emerge." I really have nothing else worthwhile to offer in this regard. Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14573 From: <> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Thanks Howard, this is perfect. I had searched ATI previously, but without finding anything. Any suggestions on where I could find more of the same? It looks like the purpose of concentration is to dispell the five hindrances (sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, agitation and remorse, and doubt) in order to facilitate insight (seeing things as they are). Insight concentration, if we can call it that, seems to use the specific recognition of anicca, dukkha, anatta to accomplish that task. I think some degree of tranquility has to be in place just because agitation is dispelled. How do you see it? As I recall my own meditation instruction of many, many years ago, cueing on impermanence etc. wasn't particularly emphasized, so this is something new to me. Are the three characteristics emphasized in Mr. Goenka's proceedure? Larry ---------------- Howard wrote: I shouldn't have written "traditional". All I've seen are secondary sources, by modern teachers, usually vipassana meditation teachers, such as Ven U Pandita and Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, who, for example, wrote the following (which I took from ATI: "Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for insight to emerge." I really have nothing else worthwhile to offer in this regard. Sorry. With metta, Howard 14574 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/28/02 4:10:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Thanks Howard, this is perfect. I had searched ATI previously, but > without finding anything. Any suggestions on where I could find more of > the same? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not immediately, but I will look. ------------------------------------------------------- > > It looks like the purpose of concentration is to dispell the five > hindrances (sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, agitation and > remorse, and doubt) in order to facilitate insight (seeing things as > they are). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this seems to be consistently the case, whether one is discussing absorptive concentration, access concentration, or momentary concentration. -------------------------------------------------------- Insight concentration, if we can call it that, seems to use> > the specific recognition of anicca, dukkha, anatta to accomplish that > task. I think some degree of tranquility has to be in place just because > agitation is dispelled. How do you see it? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ultimately, wisdom must directly apprehend the tilakkhana in order to go beyond mere calming and temporary suppression of hindrances. Insight meditation doesn't *use* these. Any meditative cultivation, whether it be samatha followed by vipassana, or the opposite, or the two in tandem, when based on right view and sila, and when pursued to the point of being "successful", LEADS to the arising of insight into the tilakkhana. ------------------------------------------------------- > > As I recall my own meditation instruction of many, many years ago, > cueing on impermanence etc. wasn't particularly emphasized, so this is > something new to me. Are the three characteristics emphasized in Mr. > Goenka's proceedure? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Respected Goenka's approach begins with meditation on the breath as a vehicle for inducing calm and suppressing the hindrances (and this will develop to varying levels, depending on the individual), and continues with mindfulness of bodily sensations. When this proceeds far enough, direct apprehension of impermanence is unavoidable it seems. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry =========================== With metta, Howard > ---------------- > Howard wrote: > I shouldn't have written "traditional". All I've seen are secondary > sources, by modern teachers, usually vipassana meditation teachers, such > as Ven U Pandita and Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, who, for example, wrote > the following (which I took from ATI: > "Whereas the sequence of > training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the > vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the > concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is > needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access > concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to > this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the > access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of > serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite > its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of > concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic > concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing > flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and > collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary > concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his > post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it > develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight > practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive > object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit > concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a > different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining > jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by > observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary > concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary > concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the > serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for > insight to emerge." > I really have nothing else > worthwhile to offer in this regard. Sorry. > With metta, > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14575 From: <> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi Howard, I would like to read some more from you and anyone else on wisdom (panna). We haven't studied it yet in ADL, so I'm interested in its properties and functions and relation to insight. Additionally, I think the conventional apprehension of impermanence is pretty useful; I think you are making such an insight too lofty and inaccessible. In the 7 stage path of purification this is only the second stage; we haven't even distinguished between nama and rupa yet. I suppose (not sure) the profundity of an insight relates to how deeply it goes in changing the mind of latent tendencies. Like to read more on this too. Larry 14576 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/28/02 6:51:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hi Howard, I would like to read some more from you and anyone else on > wisdom (panna). We haven't studied it yet in ADL, so I'm interested in > its properties and functions and relation to insight. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Better "talk" to the Abhidhamma experts on this. To me, wisdom is merely direct apprehension of things as they actually are, with their actual nature exposed, and not mediated by concepts. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Additionally, I think the conventional apprehension of impermanence is > pretty useful; I think you are making such an insight too lofty and > inaccessible. > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you misread me on this. I also think that apprehension of impermanence at the conventional level is useful. In fact, we can learn to see impermanence, insubstantiality, and impersonality wherever we look. However, conventional apprehension of impermanence doesn't compare to its direct apprehension at finer, more direct, levels of experience. For example, at the Goenka retreat I attended, at a certain point, I came to directly observe the "body" dissolve into a constant arising and ceasing of what seemed to be millions of miniscule packets of energy - each pulse ceasing with nothing remaining. This led to a "no-self" experience one evening (not while meditating) which lasted for an hour or two, and which, despite being actually frightening at the time, seems to have had some lasting salutary effects. I do think that we can also make much "progress" at the day-to-day level of experiencing, and, in this I agree with the importance that Jon and Sarah and others here place on mindfulness under "ordinary" circumstances (i.e., when not engaged in formal meditation). I do absolutely believe that a background of meditative cultivation (previous and ongoing) conditions the mind to be more effective in "seeing" under ordinary circumstances, but that "seeing" under ordinary circumstances, itself, is VERY important. In this regard, I have been engaging for a while now in the practice of what might be called "seing through pa~n~natti" (or trying to). For example, I will look at a conventional object such as bathroom tissue ;-)), and make the effort to attend to what I *actually* see. And what I actually, directly see is, incredibly, not bathroom tissue with certain shape and folds, but, rather, varying shades of whiteness. The point is that the so-called "bathroom tissue" is not what is *really* being seen. Similarly, with close attending to a so-called "pain in the leg", the "pain in the leg" eventually disappears, being replaced by what is actually directly observed: a changing stream of strong pressures, pulses, and tingles interspersed with feelings of unpleasantness, and interspersed with aversive reactions to that unpleasantness. This is most easily done when the mind has already been calmed and relatively cleared by samatha meditation, but it can also be done at "ordinary" times, though with less clarity. -------------------------------------------------------- In the 7 stage path of purification this is only the > second stage; we > haven't even distinguished between nama and rupa yet. I > suppose (not sure) the profundity of an insight relates to how deeply it > goes in changing the mind of latent tendencies. Like to read more on > this too. > > Larry > > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14577 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:10pm Subject: worm_Klez.H virus Dear Friends and Family, Please forgive the inconvenience, but my computer was infected this morning with the virus listed above. It automatically mailed itself to everyone in my address book, without my needing to open the email itself for it to do its dirty work. Again, please forgive the inconvenience, Betty. _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 14578 From: Num Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 7:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 3, comments Dear Nina, <> Nina: I like this very much, it all begins with listening. And as said above: < Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana.> One of the conditions for satipatthana is firm remembrance. That comes from listening and considering again and again. The Thai Co, p. 37, uses the word bahussuta, who has heard much.>> Num: Yes, I now hear from Aj.Sujin almost every week about the importance of listening (also reading and studying) and panna that comes along with listening. Panna can be at pariyatti (logic, reasoning or manasikara) level, or patipatti (actual satipatthana moment: phassa, sound, ear conscious, thinking/understanding the sound and its meaning, associated dhamma of hearing/listening/understanding) level. <<2) Silamayan~ana. Nina: the Co. p. 37, speaks about understanding that has been accomplished through listening. And Co elaborates (p. 39) on the different types of sila . As you mentioned there are many kinds, and when we study these we see that sila is not just abstaining. Under patimokkha, the example is taken: a monk sees visible object but he is not taken in by the image of a whole or the details. Thus this is guarding the doorways, indriya samvara sila. The most effective guarding is by satipatthana. Awareness of visible object as only a kind of rupa, of seeing as only a kind of nama. No dosa towards visible object or sound, they are not a person. About sati and panna as sila: the C o mentions about sati as restraint or that which holds back a stream, whereas panna is the dam, it is the most effective to dam the stream (of defilements), See Sutta Nipata, vs. 1034, 1035.>> Num: during the kusala citta moment, one abstains from defilement, just briefly and then it’s fallen away. Sila comes in different intensity, the most powerful one is sila in maggacitta moment. At that moment 3 basic magga factors (silavisuddhi, cittavisuddhi(samatha), and pannavisuddhi) simultaneous perform their functions: completely discard and eradicate dormant kilesa(anusaya). <<3) Samadhibhavanamayan~na > Matika: Knowledge in restraint and then concentrate is bhavanamayan~ana. > Atthakatha: Samadhibhavanamayan~na. Knowledge of the one who contains in > restraint and precepts (sila), then focus on single point with the abilit y of > upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi, knowledge in samadhicitta, or associate d > with samadhicitta. > > 4) Dhammat.hitin~ana (thiti:sustain) > Matika: Knowledge in discernment of conditions is dhammathitinana. > Atthakatha: Synonym of this nana is paccayapariggaye panna. Thiti means > sustain. Dhamma here means all sankharadhamma, dhatu, sabhava: kusaladham ma, > akusaladhamma and abayakatadhamma. Dhamma or dhatu or paccayupannadhamma > called dhamma because it is being arisen sustained by its conditions. Kno wing > by discernment of each dhammaนs conditions, is dhammathitinana. ( attha katha > then says dhammathitinana is equal to namarupaparichedanana plus > paccayapariggayanana in 16 nanas. Nina: for the sake of terms which may be difficult for those who do not kno w Pali: nama-rupa-paricheda~naa.na is the first stage of tender insight: distinguishing the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa. The second one, paccayapariggha ~naa.na is the direct understanding o f conditions. A question: some people think, when they read the Visuddhimagga, that you have to know all conditions for each nama and rupa or know them by reasoning. But insight is not theory, but panna that directly knows. It jus t knows that seeing is vipaka condiitoned by kamma, conditioned by object and base. could you obtain additional info about this stage which is not reasoning? As to thi.ti , dhamma thi.ti ~naa.na, See English p. 36. This is translated as stagnation, which is not good. I would say: stabilisation. This is a difficult part: is it that panna has become firmer?>> Num: Panna at this ~nana level is still very weak (tarunavipassana). My understanding is panna at this level sees the conditions that maintain/sustain/stabilize each reality, Even though each dhamma exists very briefly, but it cannot be existed without conditions. < paired dhammas (yuganaddhadhamma). It can be said that when one sees clea rly > (vipassana), one’s mind is one-pointed, or when one’s mind is one-poi nted, > he/she sees clearly. Nina:... when one’s mind is one-pointed, > he/she sees clearly. What degree of one-pointedness? >> Num: It depends on one’s own accumulation. Degree of one-pointedness (ekaggata-cetasika) is different from non-jhana and jhana person, but its function is the same: to weld together its associated dhamma. <>< dose not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and make sa madhi > and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep on trying.>><< Nina: Here the Co, p. 51, is short. I like more info if possible. Is it that someone is so enticed by jhana that he does not apply insight and thus keep s on taking jhana for self? Thus, the yogi who has accumulated conditions for high degrees of samadhi should practise samadhi and vipassana as a pair, an d keep on applying himself to this. Is that correct? >> Num: The two paragraphs on p.51 are very crucial. Let me re-quote: >><><< Samadhi is not exactly equal to samatha. Samatha as a pairing dhamma with vispassana (as it’s referred to in samatha-vipassana development) refers to adhicittasikkha/cittavisuddhi, which includes ekaggata-, sati-, and viriya cetasiks. A.Supee also gave some more detail on the difference between a person who attains nibbana with 8 magga factors vs 7 magga factors. My understanding, as I said, is Ven,Sariputta covered all possible means of attaining nibbana, with or without jhana. Jhana is neither necessary nor sufficient for nibbana. Jhana is also not contraindicated for attaining nibbana. Jhanna citta can be a base for magga citta, but pana at jhana citta level is not enough for vipassana. My understanding of the quote is samadhi in jhana citta is not exactly the same as samadhi in magga citta. If someone hold on the samadhi in jhana level, he cannot attain nibbana. When he let go of jhana and has samatha and vipassana (satipatthana/magga moment) as pairing dhamma, he then reaches the stream. I can ask A.Supee or A.Sujin if you have any questions/remarks. Best wishes. Num 14579 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 8:12pm Subject: Sarah / Jon available for Dinner Wednesday? Hi Sarah / Jon, I will be in HK on Wednesday. Meet for dinner? Please contact me at <> Thanks, Rob M :-) 14580 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 11:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Dear Jon, Let me add to my own post, that from recent discussion I surmise that the purpose of samatha is to aid discernment both through calm and perhaps by suppressing defilements, although I'm not sure that suppression of defilements takes place below the level of jhana. In any case, samatha is the doorway to jhana as I understand -- interested if you disagree -- and at the level of jhana defilements are suppressed so that insight may arise without their obstruction. Interested to hear your comments. Best, Robert Ep. ============== --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). > > Not complete, but useful for the moment. > > Perhaps 'in > > brief' will do... > > Sure, that'll do. > > > 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? > > As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for > > anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). > > > > 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? > > It's great value is that it is kusala. > > > > 3. What role *does* it play in the development of > > insight/enlightenment/liberation? > > All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of > > dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of > > kusala such as samatha. > > It seems to me that if samatha were only valued in being kusala, that it would a > rather arbitrary state. If only for efficiency, Buddha would not choose an > arbitrary object. He would choose it not only for being a kusala state, but one > which had a special characteristic that was necessary for enlightenment. > > Samatha is calmness or peacefulness. So my question would be: What is the > special value of peacefulness in the noble eightfold path? If there is none, > then > it is very strange that samatha is hanging around there, with no special purpose > other than being a kusala state. Even stranger that samatha is so highly valued > among Buddhists, if it has no real importance. > > Why does the Buddha himself say that enlightenment with samatha is a higher > attainment than enlightenment without it? There's got to be a good reason, and > it > will point to the intrinsic value of samatha as a support or facilitator of > wisdom. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 14581 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:00am Subject: Mindfulness of Breathing, the 16 sections in the Vis. Dear Larry and Rob Ep, Thank you for your input. There are many things to consider in the passage you quoted. As we can see, the right conditions for jhana and for vipassana have to be developed, nothing arises automatically. I would like to go back somewhat in this section on breathing. I shall make use of what I wrote in my Book "The World in the Buddhist Sense". We should note that there is a division into four sections of four clauses each in this sutta which, in the Visuddhimagga, are marked from I-XVI. I noticed that Larry and Rob Ep were already dealing with the third tetrad, group of four, but now we could start with the first tetrad. Some tetrads deal with calm, some with vipassana, as we shall see. First I quote the sutta. The sutta (K V, Book X, Ch 1, §1,) states: It has been described by the Blessed One as having sixteen bases thus: ŒAnd how developed, bhikkhus, how practised much is concentration through mindfulness of breathing both peaceful and sublime, an unadulterated blissful abiding, banishing at once and stilling evil unprofitable thoughts as soon as they arise? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. (I) Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long². (II) Breathing in short, he knows ³I breathe in short²; or breathing out short, he knows ³I breathe out short². (III) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body². (IV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in tranquillizing the bodily activity²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out tranquillizing the bodily activity². (V) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing happiness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing happiness². (VI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing bliss²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing bliss². (VII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation². (VIII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in tranquillizing the mental formation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out tranquillizing the mental formation². (IX) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the (manner of) consciousness². (X) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in gladdening the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness². (XI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in concentrating the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out concentrating the (manner of) consciousness². (XII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in liberating the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness². (XIII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence². (XIV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating fading away²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating fading away². (XV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating cessation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating cessation². (XVI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment². In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read: Those who develop both jhåna and vipassanå should, after the jhånacitta has fallen away, be aware of nåma and rúpa, clearly know their different characteristics and develop all stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 and following). It depends on the accumulated wisdom whether the different stages of insight can be realized within a short time or whether they are developed very gradually during a long period of time. ŒAfter he has thus reached the four noble paths in due succession and has become established in the fruition of arahatship, he at last attains to the nineteen kinds of ³Reviewing Knowledge², and he becomes fit to receive the highest gifts from the world with its deities.¹ It is evident that only those who had accumulated great wisdom could attain jhåna with ³mindfulness of breathing² as meditation subject, and then attain arahatship. The Visuddhimagga carefully describes the development of jhana, of the jhanafactors which counteract the hindrances. Someone may wonder how we can know that jhana is attained, could it not happen that someone takes for jhana what is a trance but not jhana? This is a matter of panna. Panna and sati are necessary. When there is panna there is no doubt. Panna should know when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and this not in theory, but right at the moment it appears. Panna should know the different jhanafactors which are cetasikas, and not merely in theory. Take the jhanafactors piti, rapture, and sukha, pleasant feeling. In daily life and in the lower stages of jhana they arise together, but can they be clearly distinguished? Only panna can do this. it is trhe same in the case of vitakka and vicara, applied thinking and discursive thinking. They usually arise together, but, in the development of jhana panna should be able to distinguish them. After emerging from jhana one should know with insight all nama and rupa that appear. All stages of insight have to be developed, beginning with tender insight, distinguishing the characteristic of rupa from the characteristic of nama. How could otherwise the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, impermanence be realized? As I wrote before, one should also have mastery of jhana (Vis. IV, 131). One should be able to attain jhana and emerge from it at any time, in any place. Next time I shall go to the following tetrads. Best wishes from Nina. 14582 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 7:33am Subject: ADL ch. 18 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 18 (1) ELEMENTS The Buddha spoke about realities as elements in order to remind us that they are impermanent and not self. When we speak about elements we usually think of the elements in chemistry or physics which have each their own characteristics. In chemistry and physics matter is analysed into elements, but it may seem strange to us to regard the eye or seeing as elements. We are not used to consider them as elements because we are inclined to take them for 'self'. What we take for self are only nama-elements and rupa-elements which arise because of their appropriate conditions and then fall away again. Eyesense is only an element which has its own characteristic and is devoid of self; it is rupa which arises because of conditions and then falls away again. Seeing is only an element which has its own characteristic and is devoid of self; it is nama which arises because of conditions and falls away again. ln the Buddha's teachings realities are classified as elements, some of which are rupa and some of which are nama. When they are classified as eighteen elements; they are as follows: The five senses: 1. eye-element (cakkhu-dhatu) 2. ear-element (sota-dhatu) 3. nose-element (ghana-dhatu) 4. tongue-element (jivha-dhatu) 5. body-element (kaya-dhatu) which is the body-sense The five objects (experienced through the five senses): 6. visible object-element (rupa-dhatu) 7. sound-element (sadda-dhatu) 8. smell-element (gandha-dhatu) 9. taste-element (rasa-dhatu) 10. element of tangible objects (photthabba-dhatu), comprising the following three kinds of rupa: earth-element (solidity), appearing as hardness or softness fire-element (temperature), appearing as heat or cold wind-element, appearing as motion or pressure The dvi-panca-vinnanas (experiencing the five sense objects): 11. seeing-consciousness-element (cakkhu-vinnana-dhatu) 12. hearing-consciousness-element (sota-vinnan-adhatu) 13. smelling-consciousness-element (ghana-vinnana-dhatu) 14. tasting-consciousness-element (jivha-vinnana-dhatu) 15. body-consciousness-element (kaya-vinnana-dhatu) Three more elements: 16. mano-dhatu or mind-element 17. dhamma-dhatu 18. mano-vinnana-dhatu or mind-consciousness-element The five elements which are the five sense-doors are rupa and the five elements which are the objects experienced through the sense-doors are rupa as well. The five elements which are the dvi-panca-vinnanas, experiencing these objects, are nama. There are two cittas which are cakkhu-vinnana-dhatu, since seeing-consciousness can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. It is the same with the other panca-vinnanas. Thus there are 'five pairs' of citta which are panca-vinnana-dhatu. The element which is mano-dhatu or mind-element is nama. Mano-dhatu comprises the panca- dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) and the two types of sampaticchana-citta (receiving-consciousness) which are kusala vipaka and akusala vipaka. Thus three kinds of citta are mano-dhatu. 14583 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, the 16 sections in the Vis. Hi Nina, this is excellent! and I'm looking forward to the next installment. As a consequence of this discussion I have become intersted in the five hindrances (nivarana), sensuous desire (kamachnda), ill-will (vyapada), sloth and torpor (thina-middha), restlessness and scruples (uddhacca-kukkucca), and skeptical doubt (vicikiccha). So if you could work these into the discussion that would also be helpful. thanks a lot, Larry 14584 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, the 16 sections in the Vis. Thanks, Nina. I will certainly be waiting for your next installment. Thanks for the comments and quotes below. Best, Robert Ep. ======== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry and Rob Ep, > Thank you for your input. There are many things to consider in the passage > you quoted. As we can see, the right conditions for jhana and for vipassana > have to be developed, nothing arises automatically. I would like to go back > somewhat in this section on breathing. I shall make use of what I wrote in > my Book "The World in the Buddhist Sense". > > We should note that there is a division into four sections of four clauses > each in this sutta which, in the Visuddhimagga, are marked from I-XVI. I > noticed that Larry and Rob Ep were already dealing with the third tetrad, > group of four, but now we could start with the first tetrad. Some tetrads > deal with calm, some with vipassana, as we shall see. First I quote the > sutta. The sutta (K V, Book X, Ch 1, §1,) states: .... 14585 From: Andrew Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 2:52pm Subject: Hello message Hello everyone I think I am Ken H's "lurking" friend. Well, as you can see, I lurk no more. Out of the shadowlands of secretly reading your postings and into the sunlight of your group. I recently had the pleasure of meeting Jon, Sarah, Christine and many other wonderful people in Noosa, my hometown. This has given me the courage to tiptoe onto your screens and ask elementary questions. You see, whilst I have been interested in Theravada Buddhism for some 20 years, I have only recently begun to study Abhidhamma in detail. In the past, I have always looked upon Abhidhamma in much the same way as I look upon one of those unending shopping lists handed to me by the better half. No more. Thank you for sharing your knowledge! Cheers Andrew 14586 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Andrew, and also Ken H, other Noosa-weekend friends, and All Andrew, thanks for ‘coming out’ and for your kind words about last weekend. I must say Noosa was extremely pleasant, and I very much enjoyed meeting you and Ken H. To any who might be interested, Noosa (Queensland, Australia) is very well worth a visit if you are in the region. Changed almost beyond recognition from my last visit of 30 years ago (only surfies in ‘panel vans’ in those days) but by no means spoilt. A naturally beautiful and sheltered bay with interesting countryside around. An extra buzz for Sarah and I was meeting up with long-lost old Bangkok friends Azita (was Helen) Gill, Jill Jordan, Richard Giles, Sundhara (was Ven. Sundharo) and also Gilly Peachy, none of whom we had seen for 25 years or so; also telephone contact with Paul Barnett/Cittapalo (was Ven Jotipanno). To you all if listening or lurking (perhaps vicariously?), many thanks for making the effort to come and meet up again, Sarah and I appreciated it very much. You all came long distances (especially Azita who flew down from Cairns; Sundhara endured a 4-hour drive in his ancient Kombi van), I hope you enjoyed the occasion as much as Sarah and I did. Chris, I haven’t forgotten you either. Great seeing you again, and thanks for your contribution to the discussion and companionship on the weekend. And nice to get to know Sarah a little. Andrew and Ken H, if there is anything to follow-up on from our many chats on the weekend, please feel free to raise them here. I’m sure other members will have comments to add. For starters, I would like mention something that came up -- the difference, if any, between being born as a human being and being born as an animal. Does anyone have any thoughts or information on this? Thanks. Jon --- Andrew wrote: > Hello everyone > I think I am Ken H's "lurking" friend. Well, as you can see, I lurk no > more. Out of the shadowlands of secretly reading your postings and into > the sunlight of your group. I recently had the pleasure of meeting Jon, > Sarah, Christine and many other wonderful people in Noosa, my hometown. > This has given me the courage to tiptoe onto your screens and ask > elementary questions. You see, whilst I have been interested in > Theravada Buddhism for some 20 years, I have only recently begun to > study Abhidhamma in detail. In the past, I have always looked upon > Abhidhamma in much the same way as I look upon one of those unending > shopping lists handed to me by the better half. No more. Thank you for > sharing your knowledge! Cheers > Andrew 14587 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:15pm Subject: back from the 'Spirit of Friendship Global Tour'....;-) Dear Christine (and All), (I hope to get back to 'proper posts' and to hear other Noosa friends' wise reflections after this little indulgence of post traumatic touch-down;-)) ***** You kindly asked me to tell you --”when you’ve caught your breath” -- how we nearly missed our flight....I think I’d better not wait for the breath-catching as I’ll have long since forgotten by then;-) It’s true that you and Azita guided us with few hitches to the airport and as you’d fortunately already announced on DSG that your sense of direction and sign-reading was not to be trusted, Jon --well, he is a lawyer --already knew to get second opinions -- otherwise this could have been posted from an internet cafe in Cairns.... It’s also true that even though Quantas’ check-in staff have obviously never heard about the Jonh Travolta ‘ International superstar and Quantas Ambassador-at-Large ...Spirit of Friendship global tour’ and did their best to put a spanner in the works in all the khanti and metta (patience and friendliness) accumulated -- and so easily discussed on golden beaches with dhamma friends --, they couldn’t be entirely blamed, even if it was as a result of their computer breakdowns that we were held up at immigration, helping to do their job for them. Now the real chink in the ‘Spirit of Friendship’ occurred at the GST reclaim desk on ‘the other side’. When we’d been encouraged to purchase 3 pairs of shoes in Bondi, we’d been assured that all we’d need to do would be to wave our receipt and they’d be overjoyed at the GST airport desk to hand over enough tax refund dollars to reimburse us for the airport breakfasts. The GST reclaim goodwill ambassadors didn’t quite see it like that and needed more evidence of purchases and a revision course on their books of rules. When they were told that one pair were in the post between Melbourne and Hong Kong, one pair was at the bottom of my bag under all the laundry (I was always taught to pack shoes first) and the third pair were the now scratched and sandy clogs on my feet, any semblance of remaining goodwill was lost. Still, a GST refund on two pairs out of three (paying for half the breakfasts anyway) did end up back in my pocket eventually. Meanwhile, I may have taken the khanti parami (patience perfection) reminders a little too far, waiting for the painfully slow process to unfold, because by the time I reached the boarding gate (Jon had wisely gone ahead and left me to sort out the GST mess), I had to thank the next Quantas ambassador for a little lecture on how he would have definitely shut me out without compuction if Jon hadn’t begged for mercy, (especially as I had no checked in luggage) and how this would have led to a non-refunded ticket at a cost of really a lot more breakfasts than I care to think about. I tried suggesting to him that he might like to coordinate with his ‘friends’ at GST and Quantas Check-in, but he assured me they were certainly not his friends, so there we have it -- a breakdown in the Quantas’ Spirit of Friendship. Anyway, we were appreciated when we got on the plane with a smile and ‘So, you must be the Abbotts’. We listened for the third time to John T’s ‘Quantas is the best and safest’ and came to appreciate his words when we left Sunny Queensland’s blue skies and sandy beaches and got close to arrival in Hong Kong. We were told by the pilot that there were heavy storms, it would certainly be bumpy, a few flights had missed the runway and so we’d be circling around for ‘a bit’ as they’d only just re-opened the runways (read: one hour, which could have been spent developing more khanti with my GST friends), before landing in zero visibility. As we bumped around with appropriate noise effects from some passengers, I reflected on the good dhamma reminders we’d been hearing over the last few days and the messages from the three films I’d just watched (a record for me) on the flight (with really lots of friendly smiles and great service): 1) High Crimes: How little we know about accumulations 2) Time machine: You cannot change the Past 3) Big Fat Liar: Truth is underestimated ***** Safely back and trying not to look too happy about having missed 10 days of torrential downpours this end (and more full page advertisements from Quantas with.. ..you guessed, John T)..... Hopefully more to follow with others’ prompts on the many wonderful discussions on concepts and realities and ‘only the present moment’.Tthe 25years we haven’t seen friends is gone and with it the stories, the tales of loss and heartbreak, the changing fortunes, the different lifestyles and ‘causes’ and papanca (proliferations) we’ve taken as being so important in ignorance during this time. I really have to thank you, Chris, and also Ken H and Andy for all the keen questions and comments which prevented the rest of us from over-indulging in stories too, too much from ‘When we were even whackier than we are now’..... Sarah p.s Chris, I’ve just realized I’ve spent more time with you than any other friend (other than Jon) this year to date....so, not surprising if the influence is apparent here.... Btw, do you think you should ask if anyone is travelling from anywhere to Kandy in Sri Lanka, so the little ‘borrowed’ item which appeared out of THE BAG at the airport --much like a rabbit out of a hat-- could get a ride? As Azita and I agreed, we’ll just leave you to add any details about this happy finding or the Attack from the Bubbles (otherwise safe with Ken H and ourselves), only and ONLY if it’s useful for progress on the Path;-)). ================================================================ 14588 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:59pm Subject: Late Welcome (was: Re: Vegetarianism) Hi KT, --- Immortal wrote: > I rarely comment on this group, ..... This may have even been the first time (unless you've changed yr address)......so hopefully now you've 'broken the ice', we'll be hearing more from you. It's helpful for us all to hear a range of comments and I appreciated yours and the others on this topic. As I think you are suggesting, we can have a long story about what is right or wrong and forget about the state of consciousness at this moment. Hope we see you out of the shadows a little more and we have a chance to get to know you better....and a belated welcome to DSG. Sarah p.s You have an interesting signature at the end of yr post below, which I'm contemplating as I sign off. ====== ..... >but on the topic of > vegetarianism I know a decent amount. There are many > tales of the buddha being welcomed into feasts and > eating meat. > > It comes down to the ever-changing reality. Each > reality, each belief is different from person to > person. If, a person believes that killing is wrong, > and eating meat is wrong than they are right. > > But, if you kill to survive and eat meat to survive. > That too is right. Its not about a single rule that > will govern Buddhism and a "static" reality. > > It comes down to the "flowing reality". If you keep > moving, if you are ever-changing with your reality > than what you do is correct if you do it with right > mindfulness. > > I myself eat meat, because there are health concerns > about the breakdown of protiens and such with my > active lifestyle. When I eat, I only *eat*. I focus > one hundred percent on eating, being thankful for > every single piece of food I have. Whether it be the > flesh of an animal or the flesh of a plant. It is all > sacred and something had to suffer and die for me to > eat no matter what I eat. > > Thats, my reality. Take what you will from it, and > think about your own reality. > > Thanks... > > KT. -- Returning to the Shadows. > > ===== > > The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not descend, and while > everything changes. > > Nothing is truly lost. 14589 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:56pm Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Dear Jon and all, The scariest thing, and biggest difference for me, is that it seems most animals don't have the ability to choose to perform kusala deeds, they have so much accumulation of akusala, and therefore so little chance to obtain a better rebirth. I often wonder whether the possibility of rebirth as an animal is something that people just pay lip-service to, but deep down don't believe. Whenever rebirth is considered, many people are really discussing past or future human births. When I consider the hardships that animals have to endure - lack of control over their lives and the environment they need to survive, having to endure cruelty, treated as products or lab specimens, having not much protection at law - I wonder why humans think they have the corner on suffering. I also wonder why humans aren't awake to the danger of their defilements, and why most don't feel any urgency about studying Dhamma and developing insight. Because of animals like my dog, I understand a little about Obstructive Kamma (?) now. He has had an unfortunate rebirth as an animal, but has 10 acres to roam on, two meals a day provided, appreciative words and hugs, occasional baths (when I can catch him) and brushings, car trips to visit relatives, a health care plan and regular check-ups, two day beds and a hammock for nights, and regular holidays at The Animal Motel whenever I go away. He's valiantly making the best of a bad situation. :) Aren't all of us are at certain risk of an animal rebirth unless we are far advanced on the Way? metta, Christine --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Andrew, and also Ken H, other Noosa-weekend friends, and All > > Andrew, thanks for `coming out' and for your kind words about last > weekend. I must say Noosa was extremely pleasant, and I very much enjoyed > meeting you and Ken H. > > To any who might be interested, Noosa (Queensland, Australia) is very well > worth a visit if you are in the region. Changed almost beyond recognition > from my last visit of 30 years ago (only surfies in `panel vans' in those > days) but by no means spoilt. A naturally beautiful and sheltered bay > with interesting countryside around. > > An extra buzz for Sarah and I was meeting up with long-lost old Bangkok > friends Azita (was Helen) Gill, Jill Jordan, Richard Giles, Sundhara (was > Ven. Sundharo) and also Gilly Peachy, none of whom we had seen for 25 > years or so; also telephone contact with Paul Barnett/Cittapalo (was Ven > Jotipanno). To you all if listening or lurking (perhaps vicariously?), > many thanks for making the effort to come and meet up again, Sarah and I > appreciated it very much. You all came long distances (especially Azita > who flew down from Cairns; Sundhara endured a 4-hour drive in his ancient > Kombi van), I hope you enjoyed the occasion as much as Sarah and I did. > > Chris, I haven't forgotten you either. Great seeing you again, and thanks > for your contribution to the discussion and companionship on the weekend. > And nice to get to know Sarah a little. > > Andrew and Ken H, if there is anything to follow-up on from our many chats > on the weekend, please feel free to raise them here. I'm sure other > members will have comments to add. For starters, I would like mention > something that came up -- the difference, if any, between being born as a > human being and being born as an animal. Does anyone have any thoughts or > information on this? Thanks. > > Jon 14590 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 7:16pm Subject: Re: back from the 'Spirit of Friendship Global Tour'....;-) Dear Sarah, Unfair! My occasional inability to decipher road signs correctly is acknowledged, (though I'm sure I was just agreeing with Jon), and I'm grateful to Azita for being 'extremely assertive' about what that picture of the Plane and the Arrow really meant on the sign. (Jon I don't think it meant 'this lane closed') And, Sarah, I'm sure you promised not to tell anyone about my being marooned behind mountains of ever multiplying bubbles in the spa with the switch that wouldn't shut off. I did have a contingency plan of shovelling most of it into the wash basin, shower and down the toilet if the worst came to the worst. Andrew - forget about the Akusala Off Switch - there are more probable and important switches to concentrate on! Thank you SarahF for your technological expertise in eventually jiggling the switch into working, though the twenty minute delay and the exasperated sighs were not really necessary..... :) And I 'may' have promised not to tell about certain Moderators who prepared a hot bath before going down for a quick freezing swim....then dashed upstairs to warm up, wearing only their swimmers, caps, and goggles, and found themselves locked out and dripping on the hall carpet when the door card wouldn't work.. Now when the Receptionist wanted you to bring the defective card to the main hotel Lobby and wait while they processed a new one..... did you use this chance to practice khanti and metta? Disappointingly, I don't think so! ...... you certainly said 'something' that made the staff member bring a new card in seconds ...... I don't think it began with 'May the blessings of the Triple Gem .....' And as for those stories about the Yoga teacher, you assured me he had said "if you get your legs tired the rest of the body and mind will sleep well".... I now think that was just a devious trick by KenH and you to keep me walking for 2 1/2 hours uphill in soft sand. :) Fortunately the Dhamma discussions, both 'sitting still' and 'on the move' were great, and the wonderful companions couldn't be improved upon. Now Sundhara......about those Austrian/Dutch backpackers you turned up with...... Oh well, Maybe we'll be a condition for them being attracted to Dhamma in their next life ....:) I'm ignoring all references to Sri Lanka, The Bag, and the Item - I prefer to think of the Item as a 'stowaway', not as 'borrowed'. It'll be four months or so before we all meet again Sarah - in Bangkok at the end of November if all goes to plan..... Does it ever? ....Hopefully we'll meet a few of those Dhamma friends we've missed up until now. :) metta, Chris --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine (and All), > > (I hope to get back to 'proper posts' and to hear other Noosa friends' > wise reflections after this little indulgence of post traumatic > touch-down;-)) > ***** > You kindly asked me to tell you --"when you've caught your breath" - - how > we nearly missed our flight....I think I'd better not wait for the > breath-catching as I'll have long since forgotten by then;-) > > It's true that you and Azita guided us with few hitches to the airport and > as you'd fortunately already announced on DSG that your sense of direction > and sign-reading was not to be trusted, Jon --well, he is a lawyer > --already knew to get second opinions -- otherwise this could have been > posted from an internet cafe in Cairns.... It's also true that even though > Quantas' check-in staff have obviously never heard about the Jonh Travolta > ` International superstar and Quantas Ambassador-at-Large ...Spirit of > Friendship global tour' and did their best to put a spanner in the works > in all the khanti and metta (patience and friendliness) accumulated -- and > so easily discussed on golden beaches with dhamma friends --, they > couldn't be entirely blamed, even if it was as a result of their computer > breakdowns that we were held up at immigration, helping to do their job > for them. > > Now the real chink in the `Spirit of Friendship' occurred at the GST > reclaim desk on `the other side'. When we'd been encouraged to purchase 3 > pairs of shoes in Bondi, we'd been assured that all we'd need to do would > be to wave our receipt and they'd be overjoyed at the GST airport desk to > hand over enough tax refund dollars to reimburse us for the airport > breakfasts. The GST reclaim goodwill ambassadors didn't quite see it like > that and needed more evidence of purchases and a revision course on their > books of rules. When they were told that one pair were in the post between > Melbourne and Hong Kong, one pair was at the bottom of my bag under all > the laundry (I was always taught to pack shoes first) and the third pair > were the now scratched and sandy clogs on my feet, any semblance of > remaining goodwill was lost. Still, a GST refund on two pairs out of > three (paying for half the breakfasts anyway) did end up back in my pocket > eventually. > > Meanwhile, I may have taken the khanti parami (patience perfection) > reminders a little too far, waiting for the painfully slow process to > unfold, because by the time I reached the boarding gate (Jon had wisely > gone ahead and left me to sort out the GST mess), I had to thank the next > Quantas ambassador for a little lecture on how he would have definitely > shut me out without compuction if Jon hadn't begged for mercy, (especially > as I had no checked in luggage) and how this would have led to a > non-refunded ticket at a cost of really a lot more breakfasts than I care > to think about. I tried suggesting to him that he might like to > coordinate with his `friends' at GST and Quantas Check-in, but he assured > me they were certainly not his friends, so there we have it -- a breakdown > in the Quantas' Spirit of Friendship. > > Anyway, we were appreciated when we got on the plane with a smile and `So, > you must be the Abbotts'. We listened for the third time to John T's > `Quantas is the best and safest' and came to appreciate his words when we > left Sunny Queensland's blue skies and sandy beaches and got close to > arrival in Hong Kong. We were told by the pilot that there were heavy > storms, it would certainly be bumpy, a few flights had missed the runway > and so we'd be circling around for `a bit' as they'd only just re- opened > the runways (read: one hour, which could have been spent developing more > khanti with my GST friends), before landing in zero visibility. As we > bumped around with appropriate noise effects from some passengers, I > reflected on the good dhamma reminders we'd been hearing over the last few > days and the messages from the three films I'd just watched (a record for > me) on the flight (with really lots of friendly smiles and great service): > > 1) High Crimes: How little we know about accumulations > 2) Time machine: You cannot change the Past > 3) Big Fat Liar: Truth is underestimated > ***** > Safely back and trying not to look too happy about having missed 10 days > of torrential downpours this end (and more full page advertisements from > Quantas with.. ..you guessed, John T)..... > > Hopefully more to follow with others' prompts on the many wonderful > discussions on concepts and realities and `only the present moment'.Tthe > 25years we haven't seen friends is gone and with it the stories, the tales > of loss and heartbreak, the changing fortunes, the different lifestyles > and `causes' and papanca (proliferations) we've taken as being so > important in ignorance during this time. > > I really have to thank you, Chris, and also Ken H and Andy for all the > keen questions and comments which prevented the rest of us from > over-indulging in stories too, too much from `When we were even whackier > than we are now'..... > > Sarah > > p.s Chris, I've just realized I've spent more time with you than any other > friend (other than Jon) this year to date....so, not surprising if the > influence is apparent here.... > > Btw, do you think you should ask if anyone is travelling from anywhere to > Kandy in Sri Lanka, so the little `borrowed' item which appeared out of > THE BAG at the airport --much like a rabbit out of a hat-- could get a > ride? As Azita and I agreed, we'll just leave you to add any details about > this happy finding or the Attack from the Bubbles (otherwise safe with Ken > H and ourselves), only and ONLY if it's useful for progress on the > Path;-)). > ================================================================ > > > 14591 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Hi Christine, Nice to have you back on-line. It is our last thought moment that determines the plane of rebirth. If our last thought is with anger, we are reborn in hell. If our last thought is with lobha, then we are reborn as a hungry ghost. However, if our last thought is moha, then we are reborn as an animal. If we are last thought moment is rootless, then we are born as a handicapped human. With two roots, we are born as a human but cannot become enlightened. Since you have an obvious interest in the Dhamma and the Abhidhamma, I am sure that you have three roots (including wisdom) and therefore have the potential to be be enlightened. Devas and higher beings all have three roots. The Buddha said that it was easier for a blind tortise swimming in the ocean to surface and happen to put his head through the centre of a ring of wood than to be born as a human. In other words, in your cycles of samsara, it is very rare that you get a chance to be born as a human. We shouldn't blow this limited time opportunity by sitting around and watching "The Flintstones". Use this limited time to put the concepts in the Dhamma into action (Dana, Sila and Bhavana). I'm sorry for sounding like a broken record, but this is truly the core of what I believe. Again, nice to have you back on-line. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Jon and all, > > The scariest thing, and biggest difference for me, is that it seems > most animals don't have the ability to choose to perform kusala > deeds, they have so much accumulation of akusala, and therefore so > little chance to obtain a better rebirth. > I often wonder whether the possibility of rebirth as an animal is > something that people just pay lip-service to, but deep down don't > believe. Whenever rebirth is considered, many people are really > discussing past or future human births. When I consider the hardships > that animals have to endure - lack of control over their lives and > the environment they need to survive, having to endure cruelty, > treated as products or lab specimens, having not much protection at > law - I wonder why humans think they have the corner on suffering. > I also wonder why humans aren't awake to the danger of their > defilements, and why most don't feel any urgency about studying > Dhamma and developing insight. > Because of animals like my dog, I understand a little about > Obstructive Kamma (?) now. He has had an unfortunate rebirth as an > animal, but has 10 acres to roam on, two meals a day provided, > appreciative words and hugs, occasional baths (when I can catch him) > and brushings, car trips to visit relatives, a health care plan and > regular check-ups, two day beds and a hammock for nights, and regular > holidays at The Animal Motel whenever I go away. He's valiantly > making the best of a bad situation. :) > > Aren't all of us are at certain risk of an animal rebirth unless we > are far advanced on the Way? > > metta, > Christine > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Andrew, and also Ken H, other Noosa-weekend friends, and All > > > > Andrew, thanks for `coming out' and for your kind words > about last > > weekend. I must say Noosa was extremely pleasant, and I very much > enjoyed > > meeting you and Ken H. > > > > To any who might be interested, Noosa (Queensland, Australia) is > very well > > worth a visit if you are in the region. Changed almost beyond > recognition > > from my last visit of 30 years ago (only surfies in `panel > vans' in > those > > days) but by no means spoilt. A naturally beautiful and sheltered > bay > > with interesting countryside around. > > > > An extra buzz for Sarah and I was meeting up with long-lost old > Bangkok > > friends Azita (was Helen) Gill, Jill Jordan, Richard Giles, > Sundhara (was > > Ven. Sundharo) and also Gilly Peachy, none of whom we had seen for > 25 > > years or so; also telephone contact with Paul Barnett/Cittapalo > (was Ven > > Jotipanno). To you all if listening or lurking (perhaps > vicariously?), > > many thanks for making the effort to come and meet up again, Sarah > and I > > appreciated it very much. You all came long distances (especially > Azita > > who flew down from Cairns; Sundhara endured a 4-hour drive in his > ancient > > Kombi van), I hope you enjoyed the occasion as much as Sarah and I > did. > > > > Chris, I haven't forgotten you either. Great seeing you again, > and > thanks > > for your contribution to the discussion and companionship on the > weekend. > > And nice to get to know Sarah a little. > > > > Andrew and Ken H, if there is anything to follow-up on from our > many chats > > on the weekend, please feel free to raise them here. I'm sure > other > > members will have comments to add. For starters, I would like > mention > > something that came up -- the difference, if any, between being > born as a > > human being and being born as an animal. Does anyone have any > thoughts or > > information on this? Thanks. > > > > Jon 14592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Howard:When an object >> is >>> gone, so are all its characteristics gone. When the visual object is gone >> - >>> that is, when the visual consciousness is completed and mental >> discernment, >>> instead, is operative, the mental discernment must be discerning some >> mental >>> object, which I *presumed* must be "a 'fresh memory' (a faithful replica) >> of >>> the just fallen-away image". If that is not what the object of the mental >>> consciousness is, what is it then? Howard: I've been thinking this over, and perhaps I get it. When an image is discerned by visual consciousness, there is the function of mere seeing, but when mental consciousness operates on the very same image, there is, for example, the operation of sa~n~na, or identification/recognition. The same